The Kevin Sheehan Show - Bills Fading As Favorites

Episode Date: September 23, 2021

Kevin and Thom today with Thom's prediction on Sunday's Washington-Buffalo game to start. They talked about why the point spread has fallen from Buffalo -9.5 down to Buffalo -7. Then, lots of discussion about the game including what Scott Turner said about Taylor Heinicke. The boys weighed in on RG3's appearance/comments from Adam Schefter's podcast. They also got into the Ali documentary, the NFL HOF '22 nominees, and some Nats too.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Cheehan Show. Here's Kevin. Tommy's here. I am here. Cooley scheduled to be on the show tomorrow.

Some of you are upset. Trust me, he had a real family emergency, which is why he could not come on the show yesterday. But I am hopeful that he'll be on with us tomorrow. The show today is presented by my very good friends at Window Nation. Most of you know I've been endorsing Wind Donation now, Tommy, for 12 years, if you can believe that, over 12 years with them. I wouldn't be endorsing them if I didn't have total trust in them. Right now, they've got their back-to-school sale going on.

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I'm going to say Buffalo wins 2820. Well, 2820, Tommy, wouldn't even be a cover for Buffalo, just as an FYL. The line now, the point spread now, is down to seven from nine and a half. Lots of sharp money on Buffalo. Why you ask? I think it's because of the long layoff that Washington's had. Buffalo has had, you know, a shorter week, Washington with the mini buy. Also, Buffalo is not played well.

You're right. They have not played well in the first two games on offense. Josh Allen and that offense has not been in rhythm. They've been out of sync. he has not looked good in the first two games. It would be a little bit alarming if they get healthy, if they get into rhythm against Washington on Sunday, and that'll be a conversation for next week.

But that lines down to seven also because Buffalo's game against Miami was misleading. It was 35-0 and the dolphins never had a chance. But the game was very hard hitting and physical. Miami's a pretty good defensive team. And I think, you know, the sharps that, that move the lines because the public doesn't move these points spreads. Only injuries and sharp money move these points spreads. I think the sharp see an opportunity for Washington to win this game also.

So do you want to amend your final score? Because I think you were thinking when you gave out 2820 that it would be a Washington cover. It actually wouldn't be right now. Would you like to amend that final score prediction? No. I'm okay with that. You're okay with it? Yeah. I'm okay with that.

to amend or take something back, you're never going to do it. Yeah, I'll never take it a step back. That doesn't happen. Yeah, I'll tell you, at the beginning of the week, I think I said right on the Monday podcast, I really like Washington plus the nine and a half. What I didn't say is I see that number coming down quickly, so play it now. I should have. I predicted that week one Chargers line that Washington would go off as a favorite after being a dog the entire summer. I did not see this one coming down as much. It also may be a little bit of an indication that they think Washington's defense could get healthy against Buffalo's offense. Washington's

defense has struggled, and that leads me to this, Tom. What storyline is more important on Sunday? the defense or Heineke's first road game, which I've talked a lot about, I know, ad nauseum during the week this week. I think the defense. I mean, we saw this team as even if they didn't get great quarterback play, that they would have a defense that would keep them in games, that would allow them to maybe control the ball, control the field. like they did last year and win games. But, you know, last year they weren't playing Buffalo most of the time. So I think the defense, and here's the other way, looking at this, what's more likely than Washington's defense getting healthy,

it's the Buffalo offense getting healthy against Washington defense. You think that's more likely? That's a more likely scenario. Why? Well, because teams, because so far for the past three times we've seen Washington's defense on the field, teams have just run over them. And there's no reason to believe that's going to change. What would make that change? I think, you know, when you go back to the Tampa Bay game, you know, it's not the same, it's largely the same group of players, but there are different players. but there are different players on the field for Washington as well.

I mean, Landon Collins and William Jackson and Jamie Davis, and they've got, you know, three to four players out there that weren't, you know, on the field that night. But the core, the core is the same. They've been awful in the first two games this year. And the coaches that are same. The core is the same and the coaches are the same. They've been terrible in the first two games this year defensively.

They have been. Buffalo really hasn't looked good offensively. I don't know which of the two will bounce back here and be more like what we thought they would be this year. I do think it's really so interesting, and it's such a reflection of the NFL's unpredictability, which we talk about all year long, and we talk about even in the offseason. We don't know until we start seeing real games. But in two weeks, we've gone from, wow, this defense has a chance to be. be really, really good. Many people out there saying elite, many people saying one of the best two or three

defenses in the NFL. And if Ryan Fitzpatrick and that offense can just, as you said, just sort of tread, you know, at an average level, they're going to have it be in every game. And here we are, two weeks later. And the conversation is, what's wrong with the defense? Is it going to step up and play a decent game, you know, and improve against Buffalo? and oh by the way the thing we're most confident in on Sunday is Taylor Heineke. I mean, two weeks ago, if I told you going into the Buffalo game, here's what's here's what we're going to be talking about. How bad the defense has been, how good Taylor Heineke has been.

Well, wait a minute, Kevin. What happened to Fitzpatrick? He got hurt in the first, you know, three drives of the season. And oh, by the way, they're playing a Buffalo team whose offense is really just off. I mean, that's the NFL for you. You just don't know. And by the way, Buffalo's offense may end up being really good. And Washington's defense might be really good this year.

But in the first two games, no one would have predicted this. I'll tell you what is good in the first two games. Buffalo's defense has been very good in the first two games. And that's why my answer to the question I asked you is Taylor Heinecke's first road test is the more important storyline for me, or certainly the more interesting storyline to me. We've talked a lot about it this week. You and I talked about it two days ago.

Scott and I talked about it on yesterday's podcast. If you miss Scott, he was on, Scott Van Pelt was on, talked to everything. You can go back and listen to that show. Talked Terps, talked skins, talked college football, pro football, Aaron Rogers, taunting, all of it. And I just think that this is the real test for Heineke.

And again, whatever the results are, it's not going to lead to like, well, this is how I feel and it's not going to change. But I do think like a wildly impressive performance handling that defense in that crowd would really be impressive and really lead me to believing more. And a really horrible performance where he appears to be totally overwhelmed by that defense in that crowd would also have me lean. meaning in the other direction. So I think this is the most revealing test for Heineke, and to me, that's the biggest storyline from Sunday's game, or certainly the most interesting storyline for me. Defensively, my expectation is that the defense is going to gradually get better. They've got too much talent to lay a third straight egg, especially against a team that

has struggled offensively. but I do think offensively where they have been pretty effective with Heineke, I think everything's in play, although I think he won't fold up like a cheap tent. I think he'll be fine. I think he'll handle it fine. And I think on Monday, you know, I won't be coming in here and you won't be coming in on Tuesday saying, wow, what a disappointment. I think he'll handle the situation well, but the offense may not handle the situation well.

They got a lot to deal with with Buffalo's defense. In other words, a lot of those things could happen that you said, and Washington could still lose. Yes, 100%. Okay. I think it's right. Yeah. I mean, they're playing a very good team. It's not playing particularly good on one side of the ball right now, but that doesn't mean they're not a good team.

That's right. And they're at home, and they lost their home opener. And there are high expectations there. There's a little bit of pressure on them to win this game and to get off to a good start. You know, that division, Tommy, which everybody had Buffalo winning before the season started, I am certainly after two weeks and just seeing a little bit of Mack Jones,

I think the Patriots certainly have a chance to be in the hunt in that division. I kind of felt that way before the year. Didn't I pick? I think I picked the Patriots to win the division. I think in our preseason picks, I picked AFC East. Yeah, I picked New England. I picked New England to win the division. But I thought Buffalo would be right there as a playoff team for sure.

But anyway, yeah, I think that the defense could improve and Heineke could play okay and they could still lose the game and be one and two. And by the way, if that happened, and I know it's only about the final. result, but that would be a step in the right direction if the defense steps up. Like, if they play well and they lose, you know, you know, 20 to 17, but the defense plays well and Heineke plays okay and he makes some big plays and it just comes down to, you know, their kicker making a long kick at the gun or something like that. I mean, I'll be disappointed that because a two and one start, my God, going to Atlanta all of a sudden, you're going to Atlanta and you, at that point, you probably be favored

against the Falcons on the road. I would say so, yeah. And now you're looking to three and one. I mean, like we talked before, if you come out of these first four games two and two, you'll take that. Yeah, I mean, certainly after what we've seen in the first two games, no doubt. Yes. No doubt.

I think going into the first four, you know, the optimists out there would have said, we can beat the chargers and giants at home and start two and O and split the next two and be three and one before that stretch against the Saints, Chiefs, Packers, and nobody knew. I mean, I had a sense that Denver was going to be improved. And maybe when we get to Denver on October 31st, they're not very good. But, man, what a stretch. Saints, Chiefs, Packers, Broncos, Buccaneers, Panthers, which a lot of people probably

chalked up when the schedule came out as a win. Then they get the Seahawks. Then they get the Raiders before all the division games. It is really right now looking ahead and you can't do it. The Buffalo is a perfect example. They look different than we thought. they were going to look heading into this. Not different from they don't have Josh Allen or they don't have Stefan Diggs, but they

haven't played well. But man, that is quite a stretch of games, you know, starting with their next home game. So I did a poll on the radio show this morning asking the question that I asked you about which storyline is more important. And 82% agree with you that, you know, this story. I voted in the poll. You always do. It's much appreciated it. I always vote your polls. Yeah. Will the defense be better? It was the answer more than Heineke's first road test.

I'm going to ask Rivera about both the defense and Heineke's first road test on the show tomorrow in the radio show. He joins me at 8 a.m. on the team 980 on Friday mornings, the head coach. So I wanted to mention just a couple of things, too, about this game that I see offensively. just sort of a vision I've had about what they're going to do offensively, especially after listening a little bit to Scott Turner yesterday. I think that this is going to be the first game of the year where you see some of what we saw with Scott Turner as an offensive coordinator last year, and that is really recognizing that the team they're facing actually has an advantage up front and maybe an advantage everywhere

defensively over their offense. They've got great team speed. They've got very good playmaking ability. Now, there is a chance that their star defensive tackle, star low two lelele, that is, may not play. He's the one that's listed as didn't practice yesterday and may be out. But they're pretty good everywhere on defense. And so I see a Scott Turner game plan that, you know, goes, actually goes a lot of no huddle to try to keep whatever defense he feels he has an advantage against or the most opportunistic situation defensively.

He'll want to go against. I see a lot of no huddle, which they've run with Taylor Heineke in the last two games. I see a lot of quick passes, a lot of behind the line of scrimmage throws, bubbles, screens, run extension throws. Think about, you know, the RAM game last year, the Baltimore game last year, where he did scheme up some offense in those games against two. very good defensive teams. So I see that offensively. Buffalo, I think, is going to try to run the football against Washington. I actually think that there's still an issue stopping the run. Now, they may look at how

bad the past defense has been and say, we got a chance to get our quarterback off a little bit. But I think that Washington can be run on. And right now, the best players for Buffalo offensively, or the best player has been Devin Singletary through two games. They're running back out of Florida, Atlantic. He's been outstanding in these first two games, averaging in the first two games, 6.4 yards per carry against two pretty good defensive teams in Pittsburgh and Miami. They have Zach Moss. They got him back last week, the other back, and I see Buffalo trying to run the football. They haven't been very successful throwing it. Now, they may think it's easier to throw it against Washington than it was against Miami.

or Pittsburgh, but I think that they're going to try to run the football. Tommy, if I were some of these teams, and I know what the Chargers did, and they did it very successfully, but I would definitely try to run more at Washington's front. I think they can run a little bit, and I think sometimes they can run at the 2DNs, especially Chase Young a little bit. I think when they run at him, they're better off than running away from him. But it wouldn't surprise me at all if Buffalo tries to run the football more than they have.

in the last couple of weeks. So there you go. We'll talk more about that tomorrow with Cooley, hopefully. What else do you have on the game? Nothing else on the game. I mean, you know, this is the NFL. I mean, you know, I mean, like two weeks ago, I mean, I had this chalked down as an absolute loss.

And I have some doubts now because of the Buffalo offense. But it goes against what I know, and what I know is this is a good team that's not playing particularly well. And I'm a big believer in – and I know it's a week-to-week league, but still, there are certain absolutes that are established in the moment, and one of them is that Buffalo's a good team. Couldn't you say – And Washington? Yeah. And Washington has not established that they're a good team.

they didn't establish that last year. Couldn't you say, though, and flip it around and say, you know, if Buffalo had been playing well, and Buffalo was like, you know, a much bigger favorite, couldn't you say, you know, one of the things I know, though, is that while Washington's defense hasn't played well at all, it's been terrible in the first two weeks, it is a good defense. It should be a good defense. And I'm counting on it to end up being a good. good defense and it could certainly play well this week.

I would agree with that. And I agree with what Ron Rivera said earlier in a week when he said we have too many good players, not to be playing better than we are. But when I go back and look at last year, I'm not sure the judgments we made about this defense were accurate, considering the opponents they faced. Well, we've been talking about that forever. I mean, we've been talking about. Maybe they're not as good.

Not everybody has, but we have. Maybe they're not a good defense. Maybe they didn't establish that. Well, they were a good defense last year. Their ranking was way too high because it didn't account for the teams and the quarterbacks that they were facing, as we mentioned during it and then after it and then all offseason. You know, it was definitely a misleading sentiment to think that it was a dominant defense, an elite defense, a great defense that, you know, was coming in.

into this season as, you know, the next best thing since the 85 Bears, which a lot of people really were talking about. That's not what we've been talking about. We've been talking about a lot of the results being misleading. I've talked about all offseason, the quarterbacks they've faced, and the fact that you cannot be an elite defense when you're not a good run-stopping defense. And they were never last year against teams that wanted to run the ball against them a good run-stopping defense. And we haven't seen them be a good run-stopping defense really at this point through two games either. A lot of that was the quarterback last Thursday night, but it still has not been a good run-stopping defense. I was expecting at the end of this year to say that was an

improved defense and it was good and it could be great that, you know, in 2022 or 2023, we're building towards that. But I also said the results actually could be worse because of the teams they're playing in terms of their ranking, et cetera. It was a good defense last year. I don't want to say it was a bad defense or that it was mediocre. That's not true. It made a lot of plays in games last year. That front four at times, and Chase Young had a phenomenal rookie season.

Montez Sweat really ended up having a huge second year. That D-line was great. Ronald Darby played exceptionally well. They found guys in the secondary like Cam Curl who played well. They benefited from the schedule, but they also took it to some teams. I mean, really took it to teams that they should have taken it to. And they made big plays, including against the Steelers, the one really good quarterback they faced down the stretch. And even Seattle, you know, and Russell Wilson making some big plays and giving themselves a chance in that game as well.

But yeah, it may, it's certainly through two games isn't anywhere near what the optimist thought the defense was coming into this season. Not even close. No. No, no, it doesn't. So what are the chances that, like you said, of all the possibilities that the sharps are moving on with bringing this line down? I mean, how often does that happen where they do that just to set themselves up for a big number and go the opposite way? Not often in the NFL at all. I didn't take it to. Yeah. But it is, I mean, I'd have to look at this. It's clearly the biggest mover of the week so far. It may be the biggest mover of the last two weeks.

There's a lot of movement between the opening line and the offseason in week one. But a two and a half point move is a massive move in the NFL, you know, especially when it's not injury related. There's nothing injury related, you know, prompting this. Josh Allen's going to play. You know, a serious quarterback injury moves the line. Like tonight, Carolina is an eight-point favorite over Houston. If Tyrod Taylor were starting instead of the rookie Davis-Mills, the line would be like four. You know, so the injury made this line much different.

But that's not the case in the Washington game. The Washington game, people, a lot of people thought that line, a lot of sharp betters thought that line was incorrect and way too high. They're giving Washington a legitimate chance to hang in there and cover that big number. And, you know, when you get down to 7, 7.5, if you see it wildly go back to 8.5, 9 before kickoff, well, then that's also sharp money moving it. And they decided to middle the game. They decided to take their plus 9 and a half and then they're minus 7 and middle it.

But I think this is sort of where it's going to settle in. I liked it when I saw it at nine and a half. I thought the public was going to be all over Buffalo because of the 35-0-0 shutout and because Washington was so close to being 0-2. And I think anybody objectively watching that game last Thursday night understands Washington got really, really fortunate to win that game and to get to one-in-one. So I thought the public would be on Buffalo. They are, and the sharps are in Washington.

So that fits the smell test for sure. By the way, no smell test pick on the game tonight. I do like Carolina, though. I like that team. Carolina right now has the number one defense through two weeks in the NFL, and they've got Christian McCaffrey. And Sam Darnold's been really good. I understand that the Jets were their first opponent,

but last week they completely smothered the Saints who lit it up against the Packers. I think Carolina's for real, and we get to see them tonight. I like Carolina in a blowout tonight. I think they beat this rookie quarterback to death and cover the number. I think what's underrated about Carolina is Carolina's defense. And this is a good football team, another team that's on Washington's schedule this year. All right, when we come back, Robert Griffin III spoke out the other day on Adam Schefter's podcast. Tommy wanted to weigh in on it.

I wanted to as well. I haven't done it on the podcast. We'll do that right after these words from a few of our sponsors. So Robert Griffin III was on Adam Schaefter's podcast. Adam Schaefter tapping in to the Washington football team stories of interest. Tanya Snyder a few weeks ago, RG3, although you and I have both said and we both agree that we have RG3 fatigue. But when he's going to say some of the things he said the other day,

It's going to make the rounds, and it did the other day. Did you listen to it, or did you just read some of the quotes? I just read some of the quotes. I didn't listen to it. So I listened to the first five minutes, ten minutes, because it was right before the show, and I never went back to listening to the rest of it. I did read several of the quotes from it that came after the part I heard. But here's the part that I haven't seen discussed in any of the write-ups of this.

It's a real odd beginning to the interview, Tom, with Schefter. It's actually worth listening to if you were a fan of the team and of Griffin and of everything that was going on back then. RG3, Schefter says, and I'll try to sum it up quickly, Schaefter says, you've been leery of doing this with me for some time. You've been leery of talking to me over the years. And RG3 said, yeah, I have been. And so Schefter said, why? We've never met before. And Schefter said, and RG3 said, yeah, we have.

We met right when I got to Washington. The day that they flew me in after the draft, they walked me up to Mike's office, Mike Shanahan's office, and you were sitting in the office. And Mike introduced me to you, and, you know, Mike said something to the effect. Robert said, Mike said something to the fact, If you ever read anything about our team coming from Adam, it's true. And you could tell over about a five-minute uncomfortable conversation between Schefter and RG3, where Schefter said at one point, I just want you to know, Mike's never been a source for me.

He said, I've been more of a source for him. He's learned a lot about, you know, free agency and what players are doing and what agents are doing for me. way, for those of you that don't know, Adam was in Denver for many years and wrote a book with Shanahan. So they've been friends forever. They've vacations together. Yeah, they've been friends forever. So RG3, it's worth, actually, I think you'd get, you'd be interested in listening to, it was, you know, it was a bit awkward, this back and forth between Schefter and RG3. RG3 was clearly trying to get a message out that said Adam Schaefter was leaking all of these bad things about me from Mike in 2013. Now, interestingly, Schaefter had some stories, but there were other guys that had a lot more coming out from the building back in 2013.

And Schaefter even said, I don't remember reporting on any of the stuff that would be salacious. involving you. That wasn't really my style. I could be, you could correct me and RG3 really didn't, but RG3 said, no, you were there and Shepter goes, I don't even know why I would have been there. I don't remember that at all. But that was the first part of the conversation. It was, RG3's avoided Shepter because he hasn't trusted Shepter because of Shepter's relationship with Mike. And he wanted to make that very clear at the beginning that Shepter and Mike were sort of teaming up to drop all these salacious stories out there about RG3 in 2013.

And then the rest of it for those that haven't heard, RG3 once again said, I'm ready to play. You know, I get done with these games, calling these games, and I'm working out at 12 and 1 in the morning. You know, teams have reached out to me. And if Washington reaches out, you know, I would definitely welcome a return to Washington. I'm telling you, this is him starting to get it a little bit on the whole Washington thing.

I'm convinced of it. I think he is trolling the Washington fan base, the media base, as if people still care. And I don't think many people really care anymore. Yeah, it's one thing to troll. It's another thing to basically, you know, spend a lot of time on a podcast talking about it. Yeah. That's a bit different. And he did.

I mean, you know, he was very eloquent, not eloquent, but he had a lot to say about it. And that's not necessarily trolling. I mean, I think this is in his mind. I think the coming back part was the trolling. I think the other stuff, you know, it isn't. It's still, you know, this almost delusional take on what went on here, at least based on what I know. for all I know, everything he's saying is accurate and everybody else. You know, the other 19 people lied about everything that happened here.

But he did take some shots at various people, including Kirk Cousins. You know, he took a shot at Kirk Cousins saying that Cousins, you know, has gotten countless opportunities and has made a lot of money with those countless opportunities. I mean, this is just unbelievable. Well, that's true. I tweeted. I mean, well, yeah, but, I mean, it's not like Cousins was the owner's quarterback, countless opportunities.

Yeah, good point. I mean, this is ridiculous. I mean, look, when Colt McCoy led the team to the remarkable Monday night, went over to Cowboys, when RG3 was hurt. Who started next week, RG3? Yes, he did in Minnesota. Yes. So stop with this.

Like, again, it's the victim card. He loves it. You know, he's been victimized. Like, he was only given one and a half years here to perform, you know? That's what he says. He talks about how, you know, you've got to give young players more time. You know, I said, one and a half years, he says. It's just astonishing to me that I got one and a half years.

Uh, yeah, the problem is... I mean, there's fraud, and things filled with fraud and delusion. Yeah. Yeah, that quote, he said, I only got one and a half years. He was astonished that he only got one and a half years. Yeah. Well, actually, I mean, he got 2012, he got 2013, and he got, you know, part of 2014. You know, he got hurt in week two.

And then he got, and that's two coaching staffs. Then he got a third coaching staff in Cleveland, and it didn't work there. And then he got a fourth coaching staff in Baltimore, and it worked out for a couple of years as a backup after being completely out of the league for a year. The quotes about Washington, he says, you know, he says, could it ever, Sheffler says, could it ever happen? He said, it could, to be honest, you know, I'm sure you saw that tweet I put out saying, make the call when Ryan Fitzpatrick went down.

And Taylor Hineke, don't get me wrong, every opportunity that he's gotten, it seems like he seized those moments. But for me to go back to Washington, it's one thing for me to be open to it. It's one thing for the fans to be open to it. You know, I still hear stories about how the stadium is filled with number 10 jerseys. And that makes you feel good because you feel like you've made an impact. But for me, to go back, that would have to be something that coach Ron Rivera and the team would be open to. And I think you never say never is what I would.

would say. But would I be open to it? Yeah, I would love to go back and be able to have that come full circle. But am I begging for that or pleading for that? No. But if your guy goes down, make the call. And Schefter says, boy, is a guy who loves stories. That would be a great story. And Robert said, wouldn't it? Wouldn't it be a great story? I mean, come on. I've always looked at the situation in Washington is just wrong place, wrong time. The injury at the end of the 2012 season in the playoffs against Seattle, and people will talk about that and say, what if forever, if I never go back and I'm able to have some type of resurgence there. But so a couple of things.

First of all, you know, wrong place, wrong time. No, you actually had the best group of coaches you could have possibly had. The wrong place, wrong time was the owner that you were playing for. Unfortunately, he's the one that really screwed everything up. Now, as far as the fans would be open to it, I put out a poll yesterday. Did you vote in this one, the RG3 one? No, I didn't see that one. So I put out a simple poll that said RG3 told Adam Schefter on Schefter's podcast

that he'd be open to coming back and playing quarterback for Washington. Your thoughts, yes, please, or no thanks? Oh, okay, I voted in this. I remember it now. 3,000 votes, 3,070 votes are the final task. Allie on votes. Wow. That's pretty good.

91.8% said no thanks. So the fans don't watch you either. How do you think I voted? Oh, you voted. Oh, you voted yes, please, because of the story. Because you vote for you, and that would be great for you. But I actually, with Brendan, my producer on the radio show, I said, I would have never guessed that.

I would have thought there are still. to 25% people holding on to he was wronged by Mike and Kyle. He was wronged by Jay. He was wronged by the organization. He was wronged by the media. He was wronged in Cleveland. He should have been the starter in Baltimore. I think I was thinking that at least one out of five still felt that way and would have loved to have seen him come back, especially given that it's not like you've got, you know, a bona fide franchise quarter. back sitting here right now anyway. You know, for the franchise, he would sell some tickets, but based on this poll, he might not sell as many as I thought. Well, his contention about the jerseys, he's right in the sense that for a couple years after he was gone, you still would see a lot of number 10 jerseys. Not anymore, right?

Not anymore. They've been replaced by Chase Young Jersey. Yeah, 99s. Yeah, 99s everywhere. A lot of Chase Young Jersey's in the stadium these days. You know, here's the thing, too, is that for those that continued to hang on to how poorly he was treated, how wronged he was, they also thought in their own mind, he's good. He can still play.

And if you saw him play last year in that one opportunity that he had in Pittsburgh as a starter, when Lamar Jackson was hurt. He was horrible. And so in that game, we remember, was on a Wednesday afternoon. And it was a big game. It looked like the playoff game. No, the preseason game he had

that was up costing him his job. Yeah, against Detroit, yeah. That's what it looked like. That game against Pittsburgh last year. Big game and Jackson can't go. And Griffin was 7 of 12 for 33 yards and interception and got sacked three times. He ended up getting hurt, banged up, and also by performance was replaced by Trace McSorley. And they lost that game incredibly just 19 to 14 was the final score.

But he was awful in that game. So I think that a lot of people have come to the conclusion finally. he's just not any good you know I'll maintain this forever I'll maintain that Snyder fucked this up more than anybody did for him

he had been entitled he was immature and he had an owner that empowered him to a level that was that made it insufferable for everybody and hurt him you know

should he have been above that you know what 22 years old 23 years old I guess but you know He had never faced adversity anywhere, you know, coming up as a football player as an athlete, because he was so tremendous as a football player and as an athlete. And, you know, he had the perfect coaching staff, the perfect staff, a guy that had coached, you know, years ago Steve Young, a guy that had coached Elway, a staff that had three

future head coaches on it. Three. How many staffs in 2012 had three future head coaches on it? Sean McVey, Kyle Shanahan, and Matt LaFleurr, all on that staff. And all offensive guys. And all guys who are open to basically tailoring their offense to their quarterback strengths, which is what they did in 2012. I don't know if he'll ever look back on that and regret not fighting through whatever it is he was fighting through at the time.

Because remember how pleased he was when the Shanahan's got run. You know, he essentially, Dan was going to move on from him because the quarterback and the head coach weren't getting along and he picked the quarterback. But then remember the unbelievable offseason of 2013, 2014, where we had the long list of insufferable hashtags. And the quotes about, we got a coach now that's going to let us do what we want to do. Yeah, it's going to be our way now. We're going to do it our way now. And Jay Gruden came in and within, you know, for him, Griffin went down, remember in week two against Jacksonville. And by November, Jay Gruden is being quoted in an NFL story written by Albert Breer

where he is just pummeling his quarterback with his words in an article like I've never seen before. So that didn't take long with the next coach either. So at some point down the road, I would think that he'd look at the people that were there in Washington in 2012. and if he had a look he also needed to stay healthy you know he was never going to stay healthy the way he was built that was always going to be a problem with him but that was his best opportunity was to allow those guys to really coach him and develop him and continue to play football the way he played in 2012 which we see a lot of guys play football that way now in the league including Daniel Jones for 100 yards the other night If we're going to go nostalgic on this, one of my favorite moments is not even with Washington.

It's with Cleveland. And it was a story written by an NFL.com reporter named Jeff Darlington. Yeah. And it was about RG3's workout with the Browns. And I'm going to read the first two paragraphs, quote. In a recent meeting that included a number of team executives, Cleveland Brown's coach, Hugh Jackson explained with wide eyes to those in attendance, including owner Jimmy Haslam and his wife, what he saw during a private workout from Robert Griffin the third last week.

Jackson explained how, at one point when Griffin rolled out in full sprint to throw a pass, it felt like the earth moved beneath my feet. I kind of remember that. sources. He told them how Griffin's accuracy in passing drills was freakish. It was surreal and special. It was everything you remember from 2012 and everything you have forgotten since. How can that possibly be even remotely close to a semblance of the truth? Yeah. It can't. Well, you know, Griffin always looked good in a workout.

Griffin had a big arm. He still does. Big arm. And he was accurate. And God, was he a threat to a defense as a runner, you know, with that read-option stuff as a part of the offense? He really, he had the physical tools. But he didn't want to play quarterback that way.

You know, after that first year, remember, you know, remember the game against the Eagles when they were down, you know, they lost 2416 and he came and he threw the entire team offensive line under the bus. I can't be Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, or Aaron Rogers if I don't get protected. I think, I mean, there's so much to this story. I mean, one of these days, as we've talked about for years, there's going to be a documentary, there's going to be a 30 for 30, rise and fall of RG3. And, you know, you're going to get people that will talk on the record that are going to tell some stories that are going to floor some people out there. And you're probably going to get some stuff from RG3 side that will also, you know, speak to a young guy in many ways, you know, being manipulated a little bit by an owner. You know, and manipulations, manipulated is the wrong word. But, you know, saddled up to by an owner and empowered by an owner.

and empowered by an owner over a locker room of coaches and players. You know, he wasn't the first one that Snyder did that with. Snyder always had pet players. And coaches always told him that's not what you do. You can't do that. You can't undermine the coach. When Bruce Allen first got hired, and that was before Mike got hired,

it was at the end of the Jim Zorn era, one of the things Bruce did was basically say, to paraphrase that he was going to put up a wall between the football team and the owner's office. Yeah. He indicated, and he did in a way, you know. He did. I mean, the problem was that Bruce was just as bad.

Well, not in the same way. But yes. No, no. No, I mean, this is true. We've gone over this. This is, you know, covered ground. but Snyder's day-to-day involvement and the relationships that he had with the team changed when Bruce Allen got there with one big exception. And that was, you know, RG3. He was mesmerized by RG3.

It's still such, it speaks to such a character flaw that a, you know, 50-year-old guy would be, you know, want to saddle up and be best friends with a 22-year-old. but whatever. Let me ask you this. Let me ask you this. Do you think that they are still friends? Do you think they talk? I have no idea. You know, there's...

I mean, that's not irrelevant. That's very relevant if they're still friends and they talk. Listen, they, he, I think for that honeymoon, you know, of his, he had Dan Jott. I think that's true. I've heard that over the years. You know, I've even heard that that was potentially even a salary cap, you know, violation. That's a big commitment. Yeah, but I don't know.

I have no idea. Wasn't there something? You wouldn't even let me use your canoe. And he let him use his little yacht. Didn't Griffin say something recently, and when I say recently in the last couple of years that indicated that he had, had no relationship with Snyder anymore. He did an interview with Kime, I think. I thought he did an...

I can't remember specifically what it was. I'm going to beg off to you on this. I don't recall it. Yeah. Whatever. Hey, he's good at calling these games, and he's got a future doing that, for sure. I've listened to a little of him here and there,

and he's good. He's getting rave reviews on it, and he's good doing it. So there we go on that. When we come back, we'll finish up the show. I want to mention a couple of things that Scott Turner said about Taylor Heineke. And then the Hall of Fame nominee list is out for next year. A couple of Washington football team players are on it.

Tommy's watched three parts of the Ali dock. And I wanted to talk a little baseball, too. So we'll do all of those things right after these words from a few of our sponsors. All right, this segment brought to you by My Bookie. MyBooky's got a really cool survivor contest going on right now. It's absolutely free to play. All you have to do is pick one winner a week. Keep that streak alive.

Be the one guy standing at the end and you could win $50,000. Go to MyBooky at mybooky.orgie. Use my promo code, Kevin D.C. Also, they are going to match your first deposit. They're going to double your first deposit. Put in $500. You'll have $1,000 in your account to play with. We've got a lot of games coming up this weekend.

Thursday night football, Carolina, and Houston. I already told you I'm going to be on Carolina minus the eight. And maybe if it's down to seven and a half, I'll buy the half point and play on minus seven. But MyBooky's got fair lines, fair pricing, really good spot to play in all of these in-season contests like this current $50,000 survivor contest. Go to MyBooky at mybooky.orgie. Use my promo code, Kevin, D.C. So Scott Turner and Jack Del Rio, they meet with the press, the beat reporters on Thursday. And I thought there was a lot from Scott Turner that was interesting.

But he was asked about what Taylor is capable of. Like what he's seen from Taylor? And what do we have here in Taylor Heineke? And his answer was, quote, I don't know. Those are hard questions to ask. I think that he can consistently play the way he's been playing. There's nothing that says that. And there's going to be ups and downs.

And I mean, this league is very challenging. And the best players in the league have tough, tough games. His ability to kind of push through that, just the skill set he has with the accuracy, with the decision making, the vision, and then his athleticism. He's got the skill set to continue to be successful, closed quote. Of everything he said about Heineke yesterday, I thought that was a really good question. and I figured that he wasn't going to be specific and say, I think we've got a franchise quarterback on her hands.

Or I think it's a long shot. He wasn't going to say either one of those two things. But what he did say, Tommy, in that answer, is I think that he can consistently play the way he's been playing. And I would suggest to you that if he plays the way he's been playing consistently moving forward, he's a starting quarterback in the NFL. Yes, yes, he is. If he can, again, I mean, the whole fit, besides his durability, the other thing is, generally, it's not an absolute fact, but it's generally a rule that you put guys like Taylor Heineke out there as a regular quarterback.

At some point, they're going to get exposed for their limitations, whatever they may be. I mean, you know, people tend to believe, and rightfully so, there's a reason. reason why at the age of 28, with a stint in the XFL that he hasn't caught on yet. Now, he could be the Kurt Warner. I mean, it's possible. Well, he didn't start the XFL. He was a backup in the XFL. I know that.

At least Kurt Warner was a store in the Arena League. Right. But generally, you think that this guy, the more he's put out, like he said, If he thinks he can do this consistently, you're right. If he can do this consistently, there's your starting quarterback. By the way, go ahead. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt. No, that's it.

Speaking of Kurt Warner, people sent this to me yesterday. Kurt Warner did a film breakdown of Heineke's game against the Giants and said, I mean, netting it out, he said he missed a lot and did not, said he really misread the play in which he got interstate. accepted on. There was an easy read there that he missed, but said that he missed a lot. Whatever. He was also 34 or 46 for, you know, whatever he was in yardage and drove him down the field after throwing that pick to get him in field goal range to win it after also driving him down the field in two plays to take the lead, you know, three minutes earlier or four minutes

earlier. So, I mean, look, I don't, I don't know if Scott Turner is right or wrong about him, you know, being able to play at this, you know, consistently play the way he's been playing. I think when he says that, though, for me, Taylor Heineke's graded out to an A in the 11 and a half quarters. Maybe it's an A minus, but he's been really good. You know, you're 100% right to focus on the durability. That's been an issue. And maybe ultimately that'll be the Achilles heel. But that's not why he hasn't gotten chances. You know, when he's gotten chances, he's gotten hurt. But It's not why people have been avoiding signing him. That's not why.

It's because they just didn't think much of him. Scott Turner, though, has a father that knows quarterbacks pretty well, even though he did draft Heath Shuler. Yeah, even though he did draft Heath Shuler. Have you had Jay Gruden on the show to ask about Taylor Hineke? Yeah, I had him on last week. This week. No, I had him on a week ago, Friday after the game. He likes him.

would think, I would think that he would be Jay's kind of quarterback. And if for no other reason, that touchdown pass he threw to the tight end, I can't remember. Mickey Seals Jones. Right. I mean, that's what Jay used to argue that he wanted Kirk to do all the time. Right. Put it up there and let the guy go get it.

Yeah, he likes him. So I would, yeah. I would think he would like him. Uh, something else Scott Turner said. He said, what was it? You know, Taylor Heineke was on the radio show with me several months ago, and I played some of the back this morning because I went and listened to it yesterday, and there's still a lot that's interesting about it,

including him not really being recruited at a high school, him constantly being overlooked throughout his career, and, you know, him explaining, you know, a lot of the reasons why, and he wasn't drafted. And, you know, when Scott Turner called last year, no other team, including Denver, who remember, you know, basically was starting a running back at quarterback in that game when they had all those quarterbacks out with COVID. Nobody called them except for Washington last year. And so Scott was asked a little bit about that.

And then he was asked, you know, what stopped Taylor Heineke from being drafted? And Turner said, well, it's a pretty complicated question. It's not the way that you asked it, but just the answer that he's from a small school. He was not recruited at a high school. He started as an FCS school that became an FBS school or whatever it was. was not invited to the combine, and he's little. Of all those factors kind of led to him to fly under the radar. Now, he's a very good athlete.

We signed him in Minnesota, undrafted free agent, and he made, he made our 53-man roster because of the way he performed in the preseason. As far as sticking on the roster goes, he's had some untimely injuries, and that has set him back at times. People, for whatever reason, they fall back to their original evaluation on people. So he's always going to be seen as an undrafted guy until he continues to do the things he's been doing, but he's got to do it over time.

He can have five great games, and if he has one bad game, it's like, oh, well, here's the undrafted guy that everybody knows. I'm not saying it's fair or not, but perception's reality, and that's just how things work. When you have somebody like that, they have to do above and beyond to get an opportunity. Fortunately for us and for Taylor,

he was able to get that opportunity, and he's really played the way that he's played if you look back on the tape. He's earned the confidence of this team and, you know, everybody around him, closed quote. It is true that your draft status, especially at that position, really, well, especially if you're not drafted, and I'm not saying it's just for first rounders, but you're getting drafted in the first round, first two rounds totally creates, second and third chances for you that a guy that's undrafted will never get. Yeah.

It's actually a miracle that at 28 years old he's playing in the NFL right now, considering that he really had to speak of. Josh Rosen is an example of that. Yeah. That's one guy like that because, I mean, because he was of his draft status and he was a very high-profile quarterback coming out of college. So, I mean, there are coaches that are always going to think, well, this guy has the tools.

He just needs my fixing, my particular fixing. I don't know. I mean, many causes were thinking about Taylor Heineke. Yeah. You know, the comment that he made, he's little, he doesn't look little to me. I know he's not big, but he doesn't look tiny to me. I think he's kind of bulky. Like to me, there's not much difference between him and Fitzpatrick size-wise.

But anyway. Except for the beard. Except for the beard. Yeah. The beard makes them seem bigger. The matchup Sunday's a real good one. It's familiarity across the board. Sean McDermott, Leslie Frazier, Ron Rivera, Scott Turner.

They were all, you know, certainly with McDermott. They were all together in Carolina. That, you know, Scott Turner, I think, will, you know, have a good sense of what McDermott's going to want. want to do defensively. I wanted to mention before the end of the show that the Hall of Fame 2022 nominees are out there. And Washington's London Fletcher, Brian Mitchell, and Matt Turk are all part of that first nominee list, which is like 122 players deep. Jacoby, this is for modern day. So Jacoby's no longer eligible for that if people are wondering. But I don't know,

is that, I think that's Matt Turk's first time on it. I think it is. Matt Turk was a good punter for this team. You know, he was the last, before last year when Brandon Sheriff became an all pro, not a pro bowler, but an all pro. He was the first all pro for the franchise since Matt Turk, and I think that was in 1996, something like that. Wow. But Matt Turk's not a Hall of Fame punter. I mean, there are very few kickers and punters anyway. What is it?

Ray Guy, Jan Stennerud, and Morton Anderson. Is Sean Landetta in? He's not in because he's on this nominee list that I'm looking at right now. Okay. I would put Sean Landtta in before I put Matt Turk in. Brian Mitchell's on the special teams list. I don't think that's the first time Brian's been. there. And, you know, I think Brian deserves a lot of serious consideration. I really do. So do I.

And I think personally, Gary Clark should continue to be considered, but he's not on the final list. Jake, again, I don't think is eligible for that list anymore. London Fletcher being on it, you know, that's an interesting one. Like, I, my first blush is that. that London Fletcher had one hell of a career. I don't know if it was a Hall of Fame career. But he was a really, really good player for a long period of time and didn't miss games ever. I mean, he was an Iron Man as far as that's concerned.

But I'd have to go back and I'd have to really do a little bit more digging. But my first blush is that London Fletcher, not a Hall of Famer. What do you think? I would say so, too. You know who is on the list as a linebacker? And I only say this because I was in the Dolphins locker room once, and I stood next to him, and I couldn't believe how small he was.

Oh, Zach Thomas. And that's Zach Thomas. Jack Thomas was a five-time first team all-pro. two-time second team all pro. I mean, he's a Hall of Famer, but he was so small. And to accomplish what he did over his career is absolutely stunning. London. I mean, they list him as 5-11.

He wasn't 5-11. He was shorter than me. Neil Oakleywitz. And I'm 5-10. Neil Oaklewitz was like 5-11. as a middle linebacker. Fletcher was a four-time pro bowler and did earn two second team

all-pro selections in 2011 and 2012 with Washington. The last first team all-pro was Matt Turk before Brandon Sheriff was a first-team all-pro player last year. But he was a tackling machine.

He was high intelligence. I don't know. That's kind of the way I feel. He won a Super Bowl right with the Rams. I just, I don't think of London Fletcher in the same way that I think of some of the greatest inside linebackers in NFL history that are in the Hall of Fame. But he's on, the linebacker list includes not only Zach Thomas but Cornelius Bennett. I know a lot of Buffalo fans have thought he's a Hall of Fame or forever.

Willie McGinnis, let me just think other guys. Sam Mills is on there? I don't know if he's, you know. Anyway, Patrick Willis, man, the career was short, but good God was Patrick Willis good. He was one hell of a linebacker who really, I mean, that career, he just ended it. It was very surprising when he ended that career.

I want to see how many years he actually played in total. Patrick Willis was the middle linebacker in San Francisco, Tommy. He had a career that lasted just, eight years. Eight years was it. In the last year, he played in six games. Now, the last year, I don't know if it was concussion related with him. I think it was just injury related. But in eight years of playing, seven-time pro bowler, five first team all-pro selections and one second team all-pro selection. NFL all-decade team in the 2010s, NFL defensive rookie of the year in 2007.

Patrick Willis is going to be a Hall of Famer, even though the career was super short. Richard Seymour for a defensive lineman. He'll be a hall of favor. He's on the list. Yeah. You like the Ali Doc? I watched one episode.

It was episode three. I didn't go back and watch one or two. How many episodes are there? There's four. Okay. So I did see. the episode three, the rivalry, the Frazier stuff, and I thought it was really good.

Yeah, it was good. I mean, I know it's a documentary about Ali, but I think they, and everyone does this, they gave Fraser the short shrift. I mean, they didn't make a big deal out of the fact that Fraser helped Ali get his boxing license

to fight again. It was Fraser and his manager, Yank Durham, who did a lot of behind-the-scenes work to help get him license and the fact that he loaned all the money. Right, when he needed it during his exile.

During his exile. Yeah. And also, the whole Ken Norton fight, look, I wrote a story which one, the jaw-broken fight, or the one at Yankee Stadium? Yeah. No, no, they didn't even get into the Yankee Stadium one yet.

and which Norton won and got robbed. But, you know, there was a part, I mean, I'm sitting there watching because I know so much about Ali. And I'm saying, you know, if the guy made, Ken Burns, and who am I to tell Ken Burns what to do, but he missed an important part of the Norton story was that Ali and Norton had sparred once together in a California gym while Ali was on his, exile. And they had a very, very spirited sparring session that I remember Eddie Futch tell me about, that Norton gave him everything he could handle in the sparring session.

And then Ali came back to the gym the next day, wanting to spar with him again. And Eddie told, who was Norton's manager, told Ali, no, next time you fight him, you're going to fight him for money. That's an interesting little backdrop about they had a vicious sparring session years earlier. Ken Norton was an unknown, though, when he fought Ali in 73, right? Relatively. I mean, boxing people. He hadn't had a title shot. No, he was the sixth, no, he was the sixth.

Yeah, that's what it said, six-th ranked. Yeah. So he wasn't necessarily unknown. And here's the other thing. Eddie Futch trained Norton, just like he trained Fraser. Eddie had Ali's number. I mean, both of Eddie's fighters gave Ali the toughest fights of his career. Now, Eddie didn't have George Foreman's number, but he had Ali's number because Fraser and Norton,

And those are Ali's toughest fights, so six fights between those two fighters. I think it's what I watched the other night. I can't wait to be able to sit down because they're long, but it was very well done, I thought. And certainly the 71 fight and everything about March 8, 1971, which you could easily argue was the most significant sporting event of the 20th century. I know that, you know, Schmailing Lewis and there were others with more political, you know, world political consequences. I would say the second half of the 20th century.

So what would you put as the first half of the 20th century? Jackie Robinson making his debut. Okay. In the first half. That's fair. In terms of a story, I'm talking more about like a game or an event. But that first game, did it have the anticipation and the hype of a, Ali Fraser won?

Did anything Tommy have that hype? No. Nothing in my lifetime has had the hype of that fight. That first one. Yes, that first one. I remember watching it at Agricultural Hall

at the Allentown Fairgrounds on closed circuit TV. And we stood on wooden chairs for 15 rounds. And when Fraser went down, I jumped up. When Ollie went down. And then I felt... When Ali went down, I jumped up and I fell down on the floor.

I was so excited. So you were rooting for Frazier? Yeah, you know, I was, look, Fraser had trained in the Poconos the year before when he fought Bob Foster, and we went up and watched him train. And his people were very friendly and open. Not that Ali's, it turned out, wouldn't be friendly and open when they opened up their Deer Lake training camp. And I'm going to have a column in tomorrow's paper.

in the Washington Times about Ollie's training camp at Deer Lake and some of the remarkable stories that took place there. But yeah, we were Fraser guys because we saw Fraser train in the Poconos. And he was a Pennsylvania guy from Philadelphia. Right. You know? Yeah, it's, I mean, I don't, I honestly do not remember Frazier Ali one, but God, I've read so much about it and seen so much about it. like we were talking about the other day, there's been so much written and so many documentaries on Ali. I feel like I've heard every single story. You know, the storytelling is, you know, part of what Burns is so great at. There's a lot of video and a lot of enhanced video I noticed from the episode on the other night.

But it's, and I don't know how much is new, you know, how much video or how much of the storytelling is revealing somehow. It seems like it'd be pretty hard to come up with a story that hasn't been told about Ali. But, God, that 71 fight and living through that time in the buildup, if you were a sports fan, and it wasn't even a sports fan thing. It was popular culture. Hell, Nixon, as president, had close circuit, you know, piped into the Oval Office so he could watch the fight that night. I mean, the whole world was tuned in to that fight. It was a worldwide. event, not just here. It's amazing when you

you listened to all of the numbers and the numbers of countries and then the amount of money at the time was outrageous how much they were being paid. And what New York was like in the days leading up to it and then the night of it and how Ali in his car

was mobbed and people were jumping on the hood of the car as they were driving through downtown Manhattan. It was insane. Insane. You know what? What I liked about the fight is that they, which I wasn't aware of, even though I went to the fight with a very close black friend of mine, Bob Hillman. And he didn't really talk about this too much, but they have a lot of black, like authors, you know, like Todd Boyd, the professor from USC.

Right. and other guys talking about what was the impact of Ali, and particularly Ali and Fraser, on them. And I thought that was really interesting stuff to get the black perspective as to, really, I mean, some of it was obvious, but some of it was revealing about what Ali meant to them. And they were very, they were very honest in their assessment about how mean Ali was.

Right. Yes. And it was an ugly part of his persona. And he was. I mean, Joe Fraser didn't deserve any of that. And you didn't even know at the time how instrumental Frazier was to Ali being in position to fight him again. You know, those stories came out long after words. What was revealing, though, other than because Black America, for the most part,

especially young black America was totally behind Ali. He spoke for them. This was a cultural, you know, clash. And, you know, the default when discussing who was for whom is that white America was for Frazier and black America was for Ali. And that loss was devastating. You know, I remember Bryant Gumble in one of these documentaries about it saying the night of March 8, 1971. I cried my eyes out because Ali losing meant we lost. But what was revealing to you about a lot of the... Well, I mean, I don't recall the specifics. Like they had a Washington University professor, Gerald Early, was very eloquent about what Ali meant to them

that wasn't particularly obvious to the rest of us. I'd have to go back and look at the documentary. But that was the part of the documentaries that I like. the most was the perspective from them about besides the obvious which we just talked about what what ali meant meant to them and and his accomplishments and the whole the whole the whole nation of Islam thing and what that meant and how remarkable it was to have you know like a 22 year old black man do something like this and be so outspoken early in his career about things. These were things that didn't happen.

That didn't happen before. You just didn't see that. And he was a remarkable man. He really was. He really was. And at the same time, he was incredibly flawed. I mean, he was a serial, you know, philanderer. He cheated on every single wife that he had.

And it's pretty much admitted it in that Dick Cavett, you know, interview, because they had that where Cavett said, well, what are your, you know, is there. What are your flaws? Yeah, what are your flaws? Because he said something about being flawless. And he said, well, you have some flaws. He said some, but I can't tell you what they are. He smiles and winks at him. But what was I going to say?

I was going to say something else. Oh, you know, one of the things that, and this wasn't. revealing it all, but it's been discussed many times in many different documentaries about Ali and about that night, the fight against Frazier, is that in defeat, he became much more popular and less polarizing. He was such a polarizing figure in the country because if you were, you know, anti-war, you were an Ali guy. If you were pro-Vietnam, you know, people were, you know, look, that's a generation where you get drafted. go to basic training and you go into the army. You don't you don't back out for whatever the reasons are.

And so it really split America. But the thought being Tommy that that night changed the opinion of a lot of people that were anti-Ali because he was punished that night by Frazier, but never, you know, went down but got right back up and fought that thing till the end. And by the way, battered Frazier in the process. Frazier's face was unrecognizable at the end of that fight. But do you think that's true? I'm not going to argue and say that's not true. It probably is some truth to it. I would argue, and this will come in the fourth episode, which I haven't seen yet, I would argue the foreman fight did a lot more to elevate Ali's status. I think the foreman fight, beating a guy who people thought would kill Ali.

I mean, literally, feared for Ollie's life like he did, I think that won over a lot more people than his loss to Fraser. I think that won over people that said, well, the courage and the accomplishment that it took to get in the ring with this guy who seemed indestructible

and to beat him like that, I think the foreman fight had a bigger impact on Ali's, for lack of a better word, on the love for Ali that would emerge throughout the decades. What's interesting about that is as a 22-year-old, he was also up against, you know, the similar odds and just as bad a man in Sunny Liston, where nobody gave him a chance. But he did that one in a different way. The foreman thing, he ropedoved him for seven rounds and took punishment. And then it's really, the end of that fight is in the scene of that fight,

the rumble in the jungle and Kinsasha Zaire is really one of the more dramatic endings to a sporting event in my lifetime. I think that it just, you didn't see, you don't, I've watched that fight so many times. You don't see it really coming. You see form in slowing down, you know, and throwing those punches like in slow motion, you know, as you got into the seventh round. But you also had no idea if Ali had anything left. And then all of a sudden he looked at him and he said, it's time for you to go. And when he fell, that's just unbelievable sports drama.

Are you just? Well, that's that's the, that's the sporting event. If I could go back in time and cover any sporting event, that would be it. I mean, not just because of the fight, because it took place in the middle of Africa. Middle of Africa. Oh, absolutely. In the middle of the night, too. Absolutely remarkable.

Yeah. Yeah. So that's the 40-event. I would go back. And I would always recommend to anybody who watches this documentary and enjoys it. Please find a way to watch when we were kings. When we were kings, right. It's a great documentary about the Ollie format.

fight. All Academy Awards for Best Documentary. That was excellent. Yeah. Great music and it. Great, just great stuff. And you really get a sense of the importance of the foreman fight from that. So while I think, I'm not arguing, they're wrong about Fraser,

the phrase is losing and how that made Ali a more sympathetic figure. I think the Foreman victory is what put them over to top. there's a couple of other things because uh i i like you love talking um about ali and you covered so much of it the would you agree with me on the following that in all of these documentaries and you saw it the other night in the episode that i watched which was episode three it's really those three years of not boxing. It's a totally different Ali when he comes back and starts to fight in 1970, 71 after the three-year exile. There's this young, thin, super fast, lightweight fighting in the heavyweight division. We're speed and in dancing the whole thing. And then you see it

in that first Frazier fight. You know, you probably saw it in a couple of the fights leading up to it, including right the Bonavina fight, where he was much more flat-footed, and he still had the hand speed, but the style had totally changed. Well, you know, and somebody mentioned it. I'm sorry, I can't remember her name on the documentary in that third episode, that his fights, his last two fights before he went in exile against Cleveland Williams and Zora Foley were vintage Ali, him at his

best. Right. I mean, just absolutely beautiful to watch. And somebody mentioned during this during a documentary is when he came back, he made a discovery that helped him succeed

but also would damage him for life. What's that he found out he could take a punch. Right. Yeah. which he never had to really deal with before. He found out he could take punishment. But his body type had changed too. You know, he was a bigger guy when he came back.

I don't know what the weights were. Yes, he was. But he had a different build when he came back after three years. Imagine, not that this, you know, is the first time anybody's discussed this. Imagine what was missed during those three years. Oh, I know. Absolutely. Did you hear they mentioned Juergen Blinn's name in the documentary last night?

Did you hear that? In episode three, they mentioned it. I think I did. But they gave a list of all the opponents he fought before Frazier. After he lost the phrase. Oh, after he lost the Frasier. Yeah.

Yeah, and they mentioned Jurgen Blent. And he took a lot of punishment in that fight. He fought so much. Back then, they fought so often. It was every couple of months. they were fighting again. And, you know, they, you know, obviously what put a real damper on the Ali Frazier rematch, which everybody thought we were building towards or that they were building towards

back then was Foreman knocking out Frazier. But it ended up, you know, said it, that made Frazier Ali two, which is, you know, really the lost fight of the three, which I've watched that fight several times. And that was a hell of a fight too. Now, that was a 12-rounder because it was a non-title fight. And all of the title fights back then were 15-rounders. But that was a great fight too, which Ali won. And then Ali went and beat Foreman to win the title.

And then the thrill in Manila, which, you know, I don't know, every couple of months, it's on something and it's just sitting there to be watched is really one of the most brutal fights of all-time heavyweight-weight-wise. Yes, yes. A remarkable story there as well. the Ali Fraser fight the second fight I thought they didn't really

give much attention to this in the documentary Ali held Fraser on the back of the head way too much yeah that was a big part of the referee that's illegal that's illegal you can't do that

the referee was Tony Perez and he never made him stop yeah we could do this for hours I was just going to mention I was just going to mention to you real quickly because Juan Soto last night went three for three with a home run and three RBIs. I mean, he's having an unbelievable season.

But he's not going to win the MVP. You know, I've heard people discuss, is Soto an MVP candidate or not? He's not. And the reason he isn't is because Bryce Harper is just killing it for Philadelphia. He is now the favorite to win the MVP. He's a slight favorite over Titis Jr. You know, it's a two-horse race for the National League MVP right now. And Harper in almost every sports book, including my bookie that I've checked,

is now the favorite to win the MVP, which would be his second MVP. And I just think it's interesting. I know we've talked about it here and there during the season. I just think there was a moment there over the last year or two where people thought, eh, they didn't miss much by letting Bryce Harper go to Philadelphia. Yeah, they did. they missed another MVP season, which he is having. He is unbelievable right now.

I'd actually, I know this will piss other Nats fans off, but I want to see Trey Turner, Max Scherzer, and yes, Bryce Harper in the postseason. And Philadelphia is three games out in the National League East. They do play three against the Braves next week, but it's still going to be hard to overcome three game deficit in a week, or just a little bit more than a week. But I would love to see him in the postseason again,

because I thought in the postseason for Washington, he was a pretty clutch performer. He's carrying that Phillies team, basically. He's been amazing. Yeah, he has been amazing. Look, my contention is no one's talking about this. Everyone's talking about the Nats competing again in 2023 three as part of this, quote, reboot that they're doing, I think they need to try to compete

next year. I don't think, look, I think we need to come to the conclusion based on what we know. Juan Soto is not going to stay here after he becomes a free agent. He's going to be God. Oh, my God. So you have three years with Juan Soto left. You can't waste any of them. So next year, because this division is pretty much up for grabs.

I mean, nobody can get out of their own way in the National League East. So it wouldn't take much to, I mean, it's a little bit free agent spending for this Nationals team to compete in the National League East next year. I think they need to try to do that. I think they need to approach next year as competing to win the division. It's got to be frustrating for hard to. Cornats fans. I mean, Juan Soto, Trey Turner, Bryce Harper,

1, 2, 3 right now in the National League in batting average. Soto and Harper are basically 1-2 in like five other categories. And you're telling me that Soto's not going to be on this team either in a few years. Well, again, based on what we know, what's

the track record? Well, the track record is they don't keep them. No. You know, but I... So you got three years left with them. I think this one's a keeper. I think you give him whatever it is that he needs. Well, I would keep him, but I don't think they're going to,

particularly during these troubling times. I think they're going to figure out a way to keep them. They certainly can afford to keep them. All right, are we done for the day? We got really long on this last segment. But, you know, you could have cut it off earlier if you didn't like the conversation. back tomorrow with my prediction for Sunday's games, smell test, skins win if,

and coolly scheduled to be on the show tomorrow. Have a great day.