The Kevin Sheehan Show - Chase Out; Sonny In

Episode Date: August 23, 2022

Kevin and Thom's show today took several twists and turns. The opening segment started with Jonathan Banks (Breaking Bad & Better Call Saul), moved to Charlie's Angels, Pryor and Wilder, and ended with Chase Young being out for at least the first 4 games of the year. The 2nd segment of the show was all about the announcement that Sonny Jurgensen's #9 jersey will be the next to be retired by the franchise. The boys finished up with the news that Monumental Sports is purchasing NBC-Sports Washington.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Cheehan Show. Here's Kevin. All right. I told you that the schedule is going to be kind of dynamic, I guess, would be one of the words I could use to describe it. I'm not sure what I'm doing every day for the next week or so.

I'm going to have a podcast every day this week. I'm just not sure who's going to be on it and when. But today, I'm very happy to have Tom Leverro. back with me. And we weren't sure if we were going to do it this way, but with Sonny Jorgensen's Jersey being retired at the announcement of that, and by the way, a huge announcement from monumental sports they've acquired NBC Sports Washington, I just thought that it would be best if we just did the show today. Like we're just, you know, maybe tomorrow too. Maybe if you're interested, you can come back and do the show tomorrow. I did want to tell you, Tommy, that we got a lot of

Apple reviews upon our request yesterday. And so I would ask all of you, again, if you haven't rated and reviewed the show to do it on Apple and Spotify, it's really, really helpful when you do that for us, especially this time of the year as we are finalizing our fourth quarter advertisers. But this came from Mad Dog Jimmy on Apple. I'd love to meet a guy named Mad Dog Jimmy. Why wouldn't you?

Although I have always listened to Kevin for sports talk, the TV and movie recommendations have been equally as good. The fact Tom won't watch Game of Thrones is ridiculous. However, Kevin, you are wrong about stranger things. It's number two all time to Squid Game on Netflix. If you haven't seen it, it's right up there, right up your alley. P.S. Watch it in Korean with the English subtitles. Keep up the awesome show.

Listen every day. Thank you, Mad Dog, Jimmy. And again, write us and review us on Apple and Spotify. And anywhere you can rate us and review us. It's so helpful. And on Apple in particular, if you give us five stars and write a quick one to two sentence review, it's really going to help us. First of all, I thought that last recommendation.

I have not watched Squid Game. I know several people who have watched it, who have suggested it would be a 50-50 for me, including the sun when it comes to TV. Actually, two of my three boys, I think, have me pegged on TV stuff, and they're like, you'd like it. But it's, you know, it was not a strong recommendation. Have you watched Squid Game?

I don't think you have. Look, is it some kind of Korean game show? It's apparently some sort of, it's a drama involving, I think, Korean people. I want to say that it's kind of like a survivor show, which, by the way, I've never been into any of the survivor shows. Me too. absolutely none of them. Because they're all, it's all phony scripted bullshit.

It's all of it. Reality TV is the exact opposite of what they say. They don't invest all that money because they don't know what the outcome's going to be. I kind of, I kind of agree with you on those.

I've never really found them that interesting. And I know, that they're very popular. But anyway, he is right. They're very popular in part because they're very cheap to produce, because you're not paying actors.

You're paying people off the street. Yeah. Yes, I don't get it. But the Mad Dogg, Jimmy, is right, because I looked it up. Squid Game is for Netflix, the all-time-watched Netflix show.

and Stranger Things is number two. And I think the, I just looked up Squid Game and it said number one. So I'm assuming that he's right about Stranger Things being number two. This is what Wikipedia says. It revolves around a contest where 456 people, all of whom are in deep financial hardship, risk their lives to play a series of deadly children's games for a chance to win 30, $25 million in U.S. money. So it is one of those survival shows.

I don't want to see people desperate at their, you know, at their wits ends trying to survive. That's not in reality. I'd like it in drama, maybe. I'd like it fictionally. And again, this is in part. Well, you, fictually, I just, I just don't want to see this. You would watch a show if it involved a bunch of people you don't like on your list

trying to survive, and then you would root for their failure. But other than that, no, I'm with you. That would be a long mini-series, buddy. I'm kind of with you on that. I don't think I've ever really watched a survival show. I don't think I ever have. Anyway, thank you for the review. And Jimmy, Mad Dog Jimmy gave us five stars as well.

So we much appreciate it. Does it mad dog Jimmy sound like the kind of guy who would be in a contestant in that show? Yes. Yeah. Yes, he does. Sounds like a guy that might put up a big old flag that says Saul Goodman, attorney at law. Which was, of course, his real name is Jimmy McGill. Anyway, I told you the reason I've made references to that show is you know how much I loved that show and then I stopped watching.

watching it, and I've been periodically over the last week and a half catching up on it. You know, I think I had watched the first two and a half seasons, so I'm approaching the final season. I'm right in the beginning of season four right now. It's going to take me a while probably to get through it. I'm not binging it necessarily, but you loved that show, right? Oh, yeah. I loved it. It was almost comparable to Breaking Bad. Kind of different, but almost comparable. And I liked it so much. I'm re-watching it.

Really? I just started watching from the first week, because there was such a big distance between week one and the end of the series. I mean, I just want to re-familiarize myself with the character from the beginning. So I just started watching it from the beginning. Well, that's interesting, because I think that's part of the problem.

and why I ended up disconnecting there for a while is there was a long period of time where there wasn't anything out. The show actually debuted. I'm looking this up on Wikipedia right now in February of 2015, and it just, you know, that final season just ended this month. Yeah. So, you know that Jonathan Banks, who plays Mike not only in Better Call Saul, but in Breaking Bad. You know he's from D.C., from Montgomery County, right? You know, everybody who's listening to the podcast is saying,

you Tommy's told you that before. You need, you need to send Kevin a review right now saying, Kevin, you don't listen to your goddamn partner. I know you've told me, Matt. You need to do that. Tomorrow, not only did I tell you that, he was a guest on my podcast. I don't remember. Jesus, Christ.

I don't remember that. When? When was Jonathan Banks? When I had cigars and curfalls? I had them on as a guest on my podcast. It was great. How many years ago was that now? Look, it doesn't matter how long ago it was. If I had Jonathan Banks on my show and you being a big breaking bad fan, don't you think I would have told you numerous times? I'm not telling you that you didn't tell me. And I do know that you have. have mentioned that Jonathan Banks is from here before, but I just wanted to make sure that, you know, I reiterated that fact.

But I don't remember you ever telling me, you know, I know we had the guy from the wire and I know you've had him on your podcast. What's his name again, the guy that wrote The Wire? David Simon. Yeah, I know that you know him well. I don't, you know what, I want to go back and listen to your. interview of Jonathan Banks now. It's a great interview.

If I say so myself, and people can listen to it. The cigars and curveballs archives are available for anyone to listen to. You just got to Google it. I have an idea. Go back and listen. I have an idea.

What? How about we run it on this podcast? Okay. The reason I'm... That's okay. Maybe you'll listen to it. Well, I'll listen. I'll listen to it either way, but, you know, it would benefit, you know, on a couple of these slow days that are coming up as we approach Labor Day weekend next week.

We could run it on this podcast as well. I mean, the podcast that you had is now dormant, correct? Yes. Yes. It had a two-year run. Right. And once I got done going through my Rolodex, it was pretty much over. This one is still live and well, and it would help the podcast, which means it would help me, which means it would help you.

Here's the other thing I wanted to mention. Did you know that the woman who plays Kim Wexler is also from here? You haven't told me that before. What was that again? What's her name, Maria Seahorn? You know, she plays Kim. Yeah. She went to George Mason, graduated from George Mason.

I didn't know that. Well, there you go. I did not know that. I didn't think you had told me that one before. You know, there's nothing you can do or say that can wipe the egg off your face. Do you know how many times you say something? And I'm like, really? So interesting.

Because I told you that yesterday. Or last week. With you, it's like, okay, I told you that four years ago when I had that cigars and Curve Balls podcast. But can I tell you something? You know what? He's so good. He's so good in Breaking Bad, and he's so good and Better Call Saul. And he is still alive, right? Yes, he is. He was in Wise Guy, the TV show Wise Guy with Ken Wall. He played Ken Vinny, Vinny, I forget the old character's last name. He played the FBI agent who was in charge of Ken Wall, going undercover. He was great in that.

Let me tell you two movies he was in, and I bet you're going to guess them, and I'll give you a chance to guess them. They're two excellent movies. One would probably make my top 15 to top 20 list of all-time favorite movies. You know, thriller, Eddie Murphy, Nick Nulte, San Francisco, movie came out. I know he was in 48 hours. Yeah, I know that. He was in 48 hours. He played, I believe he played the cop that got shot by Gans early in the show.

And then he was also in Beverly Hills cop. That's right. Because he's the guy, I believe this is true. He's the guy when Eddie Murphy walks into the club where, you know, what's the guy's name? Victor Maitland. Victor Maitland is, you know, at the club. And I think Jonathan Banks is Victor Maitland's, you know, lackey. And he comes at Murphy, and Murphy to Eddie Murphy, Axel Foley, aka Axel Foley,

picks them up and throws them right through the buffet. I think that's Jonathan Banks. You know the scene I'm talking about, right? Yeah, I do. Yeah, I do. Because I, because Jonathan Banks plays the guy that shot and killed Axel. Or maybe he's not that guy. Oh, yes, he is. I think he is.

He's the guy that kills Axel Foley's best friend when they're living in Detroit, which makes Axel Foley go out to Beverly Hills to hook up with Jenny, their old high school friends, to say, oh, Mikey was killed and I'm out here just investigating. He's just hanging out in Beverly Hills. But I'm pretty sure that Jonathan Banks plays the dude that Murphy, that Axel throws through the buffet line when he goes in to talk to Victor Maitland. And then he gets, you know, he gets cuffed and just stares Victor Maitland down as he's walking out. You know what? That was not a...

Yeah, go ahead. He was also in, and he was very impressed that I remembered this and knew it pretty much by heart. He was also in Hill Street Blues. Never watched it. as a character for a couple of episodes named Reggie, a guy who had multiple personalities. He was great. He was unbelievable in his grief appearance in Hill Street Blues.

So, I mean, he's a great actor. A great actor. And I'm looking now through, you know, his career. I mean, he's always worked. I mean, he started acting. He moved to L.A. By the way, a Northwood High School in Montgomery County, which, by the way, I'm pretty sure is the high school that Larry Michael went to.

They're not the same age. Larry would be younger than Jonathan Banks. He went to Northwood High School in Montgomery County and then went to the University of Indiana in Bloomington. By the way, would have been there during the great, you know, Or, no, would have been there maybe the pre-Bobby night years, it looks like, because he went to L.A. in 1974, and he has been busy and acting ever since. He was in Stir Crazy? Who did he play in Stir Crazy?

I don't remember. He was an airplane. I don't remember that either. I don't remember him in Airplane. Yeah. It says he was in Stir Crazy. That movie was actually on recently. God, Gene Wilder and Richard Pryor were great.

together. They really... Have you got the right case? Have I got what? Have you got the right case? Richard Pryor in the court. True. Exactly.

That's so good. Yeah. We bad. We bad. Is they walking into prison? Yeah, that, uh... I'm looking at stir crazy right now. I don't know what character Jonathan Banks played in that movie, but what's funny is

as I'm looking at this, um, Craig T. Nelson was, you know, was the warden in that movie. He's another guy that's just always worked. Now, he did have that sitcom coach. It was called coach, right? That wasn't terrible and aired probably pretty good run, I bet, you know, five years at least, something like that. Yeah, it had a good run. It's been in rerun, so that's where you really make your money in the rerun money. Right. And it had a good run of reruns, but he was also in a short-lived drama series about the D.C. police. And I'm trying to think what it was called.

It didn't last very long. I don't know what you're talking about. Here's another guy. The district. He was in a show called The District. I've heard of that show. I never watched it. Two seasons.

Also in Stir Crazy. Do you remember the actor George Stantford Brown? Oh, yeah. He was in a TV show called The Rookies. That's what I was going to ask you. I remember that show very well. As a kid, it was a really, it was an excellent show. Yes.

He was in other things. He was also in Roots. He was in Roots. He was in Roots? Stanford Brown. Okay. Yes. He also was in, it looks like the show Mission Impossible.

The show The Rookies, I want to see who the other people that were in it, because I think Kate Jackson was in, exactly. Yes. And this was before Charlie's Angels. Yes. I loved Kate Jackson. Oh, so did I. I mean, who didn't? But I was not a Charlie's Angels fan.

I didn't watch Charlie's Angels, but I was. like Kate Jackson. Well, as a child of the 70s, I never missed Charlie's Angels. Charlie's Angels, you know, and obviously you had Kate Jackson, Jacqueline Smith, and Farrah Fawcett.

Those were the original three, and then Cheryl Ladd came in and replaced Farrah Fawcett. And I, you know, there was some sort of documentary on this show a couple of years ago. It did not have a long run. And I'm pulling it up right now.

now. I think, I thought it had a longer run it than it did. And I believe that part of the documentary I learned is that Farah Fawcett was only on the show for one season. And, um, well, she became a breakout star. I mean, Farah Fawcett. She, she did the, uh, the poster that everybody had in their room. She did the Noxema, shaving cream commercials. With Joe Namath. With Joe Namath. Take it off. Take it off. Take it. all off. That's what turned her into a star. She was already well known as kind of a model, pin-up model. I think we've done a show on pin-ups before. But she was already kind of a star. Yeah, so it looks like she was there. Yes, she was only on the show for the first season and

then came back a few years later as a guest. But Cheryl Ladd replaced her after the first season. And Cheryl Latt, by the way, the poster, the Farah Fawcett poster, to be honest with he, was really for people older than me. The poster that people my age had children of this, you know, 70s elementary, you know, elementary school, you know, into junior high and then high school in the 80s was Cheryl Teagues. That was the poster that we all had in the fishnet bathing suit.

Cheryl Ladd was good on that show and I always thought she was beautiful. I believe that she's also like a scratch golfer and golf has been a big part of her life and she's not male. She is rich. And I bet she belongs to a country club.

But anyway. Did you tell me at one point, didn't you have a poster of Lucille Ball in your bedroom? Stop it. No. You didn't. You told me that. I'm pretty sure. Not me. If you're being serious, that was not, that was not me. I never said that. Okay. I must be getting confused. You are getting confused. Did you have a poster of Lucille Ball?

No. Why would I have a poster of Lucille Ball? What kind of maniac do you think I am? Well, why would I have a poster of Lucille Ball? I don't know, Kevin. You got a wide tent. Lots of room. I do have a, you know what? I do have a wide tent. I have a very wide tent. Anyway, okay, enough of that. There was so much news this morning. I know. I mean, it really is.

I guess we have to start sports-wise on the show today. With Washington getting down to 80, today is a cut-down date to 80. And the big news of the day is that Chase Young, Chase Young is going on the Pup regular season list, which means he's going to miss the first four games. That is now official. You know, it's not a shocker that Chase Young's going to be out. When Ron Rivera was asked about being on the Pup list at the beginning of camp, remember he slipped up and said, you know, he's probably going to be on the Pup regular season,

that's six games. And then he said, oh, no, no, no, no. He didn't even know what the Pup list was for regular season. And then he came back and tried to kind of erase what he had already said and said, well, he's out for the opener. But that was kind of an indication that he was going to miss the early portion of the schedule. So he's going to miss the first four games of the year, Jacksonville, Detroit, Philly at home, and at Dallas. So two division games.

And the earliest he can be back is October 9th against Tennessee. I don't know anything. I just don't feel good about this. I, you know, Logan Thomas came off the Pupp list and he got injured a much. month after Chase Young's injury, and I understand Chase Young, his injury was more complex and more serious. I just don't have a really good feeling about Chase Young, and I think the biggest concern is, well, let me just say, I'm glad they're not going to rush anything and they shouldn't. You know, you make sure this guy, when he comes back, he is at 100%. My concern is that it's a new 100%, which you often hear athletes refer to after serious injuries.

Yeah, I'm 100%, but it's a new 100%. It's not the 100% I was before the injury. And I don't know anything. I just hope we get Chase Young at his 100% pre-injury athleticism. because I hope this isn't something that impacts his career, but it's definitely going to impact the upcoming season for sure. Why would it? If you get to Chase Young from last year,

I don't see how it would impact the season. Well, because I guess... He was pretty much a non-factor last year. Because I guess my expectation would have been if he had come back completely healthy and had an off-season and a training camp, that we would have had a significant improvement from a player of that talent level. That's not unreasonable. Thank you.

That's not unreasonable to believe. That's very nice of you. That's kind of you. I mean, I wouldn't expect last year in the first eight games of the year to be who he becomes the rest of his career. I think that he – Right. I agree. I think he certainly would have been motivated,

and is motivated, I hope he is, to prove that last year was an aberration pre-injury. But my point is... We think so. Forget about the production or the predicted production. Again, what can't be debated is how talented he is. And what I'm certainly... What I'm hopeful is that that talent level is still as high as it was before this injury. and that that hasn't been diminished.

You never know. You never know. You never know, but this is the time that you would hope over this time he's learned the things that they've tried to drill into him and has developed past rushing techniques and strength and other talents that would make up for any, any even slightly diminished capacity of speed or mobility. True. And that's where players who have had serious injuries who say physically now it's a new 100%, they develop ways to not drop off in production because they become better at their craft,

which is kind of what you were saying. Here's the one thing that changes with Chase Young this year. There can be no big-time expectations for him this year. He has been injured since early last November and had no off-season, and the first time we see him, if we see him, will be his first action on a football field live, and it'll be in the regular season. I thought going into this year, before, you know,

we started to hear the rumors of Pupplist and training camp miss and, you know, opening day could be in jeopardy, I was pushing the, you know, the storyline that this is a pressure year for Chase Young. He's got to perform. He's got to make people forget about the last eight games last year and remind everybody that he was the defensive rookie of the year in 2020. The franchise is only in the history of the franchise defensive rookie of the year. But that's off the table now. 2023 becomes more of the pressure year, if there is a pressure year, unless he comes back week five and ends up having a dominant season.

Well, then my point is, if he doesn't reach rookie year productivity, you can't hold it against him this year. Okay. So anything you get out of Chase Young this year is, what, gravy? Yeah. Kind of, what would you think? I certainly don't think you can hold his feet to the fire in kind of a pressure. No, you can't. You know?

No, you can't. I mean, you know, coming back from the injury with no training camp to speak of, no. It would not be fair to judge him against his expectations when he does come back this year. Yeah. Yeah, you know, it's funny. I'm just remembering. I had Nikki Javala from the Washington Post who covers the team on the radio show

a month ago, something like that. And we were talking about, you know, the fact that Duran Payne, you know, is entering this fifth year, you know, option year and the team did not extend him. This was before Terry McLaren got signed. And she said, well, if they get Terry McLaren signed, then, you know, you get into a position,

next year, then they can kind of approach Duran Payne. And they didn't approach Duran Payne as far as a contract extension goes. And the truth is that Duran Payne, I still believe, has a chance to go out there and kill it in this contract year. And then the team can always franchise them next off season if they want to keep them. But we were talking about the futures of Montez Sweat and Chase Young. And she said, well, they're obviously going to pick up the option for some. sweat, which is the first one because he was 2019. And then we'll, she sort of said just very casually and then we'll see about Chase Young's

fifth year option. And I said, what do you mean? We'll see. And she said, well, I mean, he did have a good year last year. And I forget kind of how the conversation went after that. But keep in mind that picking up his fifth year option would happen after this season. And he's got to get healthy. and he's got some stuff to prove.

I mean, I think it's got to happen by, like, I think it's May of 23, where you pick up the fifth year option for the player on a first-round pick. I think that would be the day. But this is a handicap for this football team going into this season with a defense that already has huge questions.

Well, I think it does, but just moments ago, you try to act like, Like, you know, there shouldn't be any concern. You asked me why, given how he played last year. That's true. I did, didn't I? I don't expect him to be that bad.

It was just a few minutes ago. Well, I don't remember what happened a few minutes ago. But I do remember I had Jonathan Banks on my podcast. Okay. Okay. Of course you do. Listen, what? I mean, I think, I think that he would perform once full of,

healthy better than he has to be better than he was last year. Yeah. Okay. But, I mean, if, you know, the measure, I just threw in the measure of the expectations can't be from last year. No. He can't possibly be as that bad. Right.

Jordan Schultz tweeted out just a little while ago. And I, who is Jordan Schultz? I know the name. NFL insider, whatever. He wrote and tweeted the following. Full Chase Young update per source. ACL surgery was more significant than most because he also suffered a fully ruptured Patella,

which is why he's starting out on the Pupp list. It's an impressive all-around recovery. Commander's plan for Young's return week five versus the Titans. You know, I think that's the first time that we've heard that kind of specific information on the significance of his injury. What we've heard all along is it was much more than just a torn ACL. So let's just hope that when he comes back, he's 100%. Here are the other things that happen today.

So Washington, we now know officially, will not have Chase Young. I think it's going to be James Smith Williams. That's certainly been the guy on the depth chart that they've had is the opposite defensive end from Montez Sweat. We're going to see Casey Two Hill. We're going to see guys like, I think, F.A. Obata. And then, you know, it's going to come down to guys like William, Will Bradley King and Chocotone. I'm a big fan of Chocotony. I hope he makes the team and I hope they find a way to put him on the field as a pass rushing specialist because I think he can be that. But we now know

Chase Young back week five. Now, the team was busy doing other things today. Let me go through the list, because one of them is kind of surprising to me, but also on some level, not super surprising. They released to get down to 80 after putting Chase Young on the physically unable to perform list for the regular season. They released Tyler Larson Center.

He was coming off in injury. Actually, they put him on the Pupp list. They released Rashad Hill, who they had signed from Minnesota a week and a half ago, and I told all of you guys that he is awful. Like, he was terrible in Minnesota. They released him. They put linebacker Nathan Gary, the guy that they signed, who, by the way, played a little bit on offense, too, in the game, I think, against Carolina.

Maybe it was Kansas City. They put him on the reserve injured list. Now, Kelvin Harmon was released as well. And I've mentioned his name a couple of times. He's a player that's just kind of stuck around and hung around. And I've mentioned him in the same conversation with Diami Brown. I just, I have heard that Diami Brown, you know, hasn't been what they have hoped he would be when they drafted him. You know, he was hurt last year.

We've talked about Diami Brown. They're deep. They got McCorn, Dotson, Curtis Samuel, Cam Sims. Those are gimmies. You know, Milne or Erickson's probably going to make the team because one of them is going to be a returner, you know, a punt returner. And I had heard that, you know, there were people out there that really thought Kelvin Harmon was having a very good camp. My guess is they did him a favor.

And we'll see. I could be dead wrong about this. But they probably determined he just couldn't make this team because of the depth that they have at wide receiver. and they're going to give him a chance to catch on him with somebody else over the last two weeks of preseason, the game this weekend and then beyond. You know, I think he did briefly sign with another team when he was cut once before by Washington. I think that's right. I could be wrong about that.

No, he's always either been with the team or on the practice squad, I guess. Oh, that's right. He tore his ACL before the 2020 season. So anyway, he got waived today. We'll see if somebody, if he catches on with somebody. He's a big, strong target with good hands. I just kind of like the player a little bit. But anyway, so there you go.

Busy day for the football team. And a big announcement from the football team as it relates to the next jersey they're going to retire. And this definitely will make the two of us and did when we heard the news make us very happy. More on that and the monumental acquisition of NBC Sports Washington right after these words from a few of our sponsors. Want to bet on sports? Go to MyBooky at MyBooky.com or MyBooky.ag. Use my promo code, Kevin D.C., and they'll double your first deposit all the way up to $1,000. If you're looking for a place that's fair, that has quality lines, good pricing, will pay you, and is offering a phenomenal deposit incentive,

which is doubling your first deposit all the way up to $1,000. MyBooky.ag, mybooky.com is the place to go. Again, use my promo code, Kevin D.C. They've got all of the preseason NFL prop bets that you would want. All of the week one college lines are up there for this coming weekend, and then the full-fledged college weekend next week. and all of the first two weeks of NFL lines are up there as well. MyBooky.ag, my bookie.com, using my promo code, Kevin D.C.

Sonny Jorgensen's number nine will be the next jersey to be retired by the Washington now commanders, the Washington franchise. And that makes you happy. It makes me happy. My personal belief is that once they opened it up to retiring jerseys, Sammy Boz was the only one there for many, many, many years. years. All of the other jerseys were protected. Bobby Mitchell, they retired his jersey. That was fine and very appropriate as the number two jersey in the organization to be retired. Sunny should

have been the third one. They did Sean Taylor. We know they didn't do it well, but they are going to retire Sonny's jersey. It's going to happen in the season finale against the Cowboys. Let's hope, Tommy, that that's like a meaningful game and the place isn't packed with cowboy fans. That would suck. What are the odds, though? What are the odds? Oh, better than 50-50, probably,

that the crowd is 50-50 or better Cowboys fans to Washington fans. Yeah, look, I'm sure they have a business reason why they pick that game and also to make Sunny stand outside. uh, like in early January for the ceremony. I'm sure there's a business reason for that, but the odds that it will not be a great atmosphere are, are good, uh,

since the Cowboys are heavily favored to be NFC, each champs, and the commanders, uh, for everybody outside of Washington in particular, will be lucky to scrape away for third place in the division. Now, I went back and I checked final games of the season under Dan Snyder to see, you know, how these have generally come out for the team. And I was kind of surprised because the overall record is not that bad. Well, the record is irrelevant.

How many the games were relevant? lot of these final game. Are you talking about the final game of the season or the final games that were at home? No, the final games of the season. Okay, but so many of them have irrelevant games. I have it separated into the final game of the season. They're 11 and 12 since Dan Snyder took over in the final game of the season. They are at home, though, seven and six. Okay. But what's the relevance of that with Sunny? What's more relevant is what are the chances or what's the history of that game being a relevant, meaningful game versus it being a matchup of a Washington team that's out of the playoffs,

has nothing to play for against perhaps another team that has nothing to play for, which is what would result in having a dismal crowd? Not necessarily. What do you mean? I think having a smaller crowd in a meaningless game would be far worse. than having a Cowboys crowd in a meaningless game only for this team. Okay, whatever. What's the point of their record to Sunny's retirement?

Why did you look up that particular information? Well, because this is to get the last game in a season, and my impression is they usually suck the last game in a season. I mean, for the past 10 years, for the past 12 years, they've gone 4 and 8 in the last game in a season. I don't care if they win or lose the game as it relates to Sunny. I care that it's the best possible environment for Sunny. And what you just said about, you know, an irrelevant, meaningless game with a smaller

crowd actually might be better than, you know, a game that involves the Cowboys where the Cowboys have to win it. It's totally irrelevant for Washington. But what I'm saying to you is the team's record in these games, I don't understand the connection to Sunny's retirement on that day. Because they're retiring on the last day of the season. And I thought that their record was much worse. Okay.

For the final games of the season, because generally, bad teams tap out, you know, on the final game of the season. But it's not that bad. At least the first half of Snyder's era, it's not that bad. Okay. So I thought it would be much worse. Okay, so I don't want to beat this dead horse, but that's like a total stand-alone subject from Sunny's retirement on the final day of the year. You were interested, you were curious to see what Washington's final game record was under Dan Snyder.

Since they picked the final game to retire Sunny's number. I know they did that, but what their previous record is has nothing to do with what the environment will be like for Sunny on that particular day. That's the point I'm trying to make. Their historical record in the final game of the year is irrelevant. What's relevant if you're wondering what kind of crowd they'll have, at least historically, is how many of those games were games in which Washington fans had a real reason to show up and root for the team? Because out of those 23 games, I bet you it's no more than five or six. I bet you the other 17 were games that were meaningless for Washington,

And then we could go about figuring out how many of those games. Because there have been final games of the year that were big for Dallas when Dallas played here. There was a game a couple of years ago. Remember the final game of Bruce Allen and Bill Callahan? Big game for the Eagles. They had to win to get into the postseason. And it was filled with Philly fans. Meaningless for Washington.

That to me is more relevant information in terms of historically. I mean, we don't know what's going to happen this year. But I would say that you're right. about your initial point, which is there must be a reason, although we say that and we're giving them a lot of credit, because they haven't had a lot of reasons for doing stupid things in the past, but there must be some sort of reason that the Dallas game was picked. It could have been availability for Sonny. It could have been availability for, you know, some sort of big sponsorship. It could have been that they already had other things planned for all of the other

home games. And this was the last thing they got to, which was the Jersey retirement. Well, then that, I mean, that speaks to their incompetence because, you know, this is one of the things that all along, I never understood how a marketing genius like Dan Snyer with the great history that the franchise had before he bought it would not have milked that history for all it's worth by retiring numbers left and right, you know, until there were no more numbers left. That's a really good point. I mean, and by the way, I don't think he's a marketing genius. I want to be specific about this.

I think he's been more of a merchandising expert, you know, figuring out how to monetize things that maybe weren't monetized previously. Certainly that was the case early in, you know, his ownership of the franchise. Marketing expert, I don't know about that, but you just made a point that really, I don't think we've, I don't think anybody's ever discussed it. Given that all he cared about, all he cared about was milking every last nickel out of anything having to do with this franchise. the fact that he didn't 20 years ago say we're going to start retiring jerseys is kind of amazing that he didn't think of that. And he could have done one a year and substantiated it, you know, based on, there's a lot. I mean, look, I know if you want to be real circumspent about it, if you want to really get down to the nitty-gritty, there's a handful of guys,

but you could make the case for a lot of guys if you really wanted to expand it, whose numbers should be retired. Well, I'll go through my list again, which you and I've talked about, and I think you pretty much agreed with me on the list. You won't remember it, but I'll remind you of it. But no, Tommy, seriously, every year,

like if you go back, especially when the team was still popular when he owned it, when it still had a fan base, you know, just the jersey alone, the amount of money with the name on the back, you know, turning it into a big day. You know, they've got some cruise planned. Have you seen this cruise that they're going to do for fans to pay to do some cruise with former players? I mean, they could have done a lot with an annual retired jersey situation because it was really one of the only franchises. I believe that's the case that really didn't retire jerseys. So they had all of this backlog.

Yeah, I agree with you. Let me just read this statement from the team because it came from, interestingly, Tanya, not Dan. Quote, no member of the Washington franchise will ever wear the number nine again, which is truly a nod to Sunny's incredible accomplishments on and off the field, said co-CEO and co-owner Tanya Snyder. Dan and I are thankful for the 55 years Sunny dedicated to this franchise. People will remember him as one of the greatest quarterbacks in franchise history and the radio voice of the team for our three Super Bowl victories.

He represents true excellence in professionalism and serves as a role model for future Washington players. We look forward to honoring his legacy with his friends and family later this season. He will forever be a part of the Burgundy and Gold. He got here in 64. That's 36 years. It's 2022. So that is, you know, well, that's 58 years, not 55. But I guess he hasn't been on the radio broadcast for three years.

So that's why she said 55. Okay. I just wanted to make sure that, you know, we weren't getting into a situation where they got the years wrong. Remember Steve Spurrier when he let Shane Matthews wear number nine in training. champ in a preseason game, I think. And to Sunny's credit, I think I have this right. You may know this more than I because you were covering the team during this time. I wasn't a part of the sports media.

I don't think Sunny said anything about it. And Dan, Dan didn't say anything about it because it didn't occur to him. Because the truth is he's not like a sharp fan like all of us are, and many of you that are listening. But the fan outrage and then Spurrier, well, okay, we'll put something else an old shame. And he just, nobody told him it was a protected number. Just like, you know, apparently seven, which was protected forever, somehow ended up on the back of Dwayne Haskins. That one, the owner, was all four and put Joe on the spot, which was just grotesque what he did to Joe. with the seven on Haskins.

Sunny has a statement. I don't know if you've seen this, but Sunny put out a statement that reads as follows. The Washington organization is blessed with one of the best fan bases in football that has always been near and dear to my heart. It's a wonderful team in city to play for. I was humbled to find out my jersey was being retired, closed quote. by the way

the Washington organization for that statement is appropriate he shouldn't say the Washington commanders are blessed but I guarantee you that saying commanders would be I mean just

even thinking of it as that being the team name it's probably not one of those things that would please well it hasn't pleased most of the old timers and certainly not sunny I hope he's well. So what's your list? Okay. The list that you and I have talked about like maybe 15 times even over the last year probably two or three times because of the Sean Taylor thing. I'm giving

you a chance to walk down the runway with your list. Well, let me just say before you comment on the list, your previous comments were you nailed it. So now I will tell you, I have three categories for retired jerseys for this organization. I have a category called no debate. And there are seven of those that there's no debate. Those jerseys should be retired. And if you and I were part of, you know, a 12-person team to decide which jerseys got retired,

we would convince everybody these are the seven that have to be retired. And then there's a category of what I would call debatable, where we can debate them. And then there's an outside looking in shouldn't be retired, but somebody might throw their name into the mix for us to discuss. The no debate list is nine, Sonny Jurgensen, 28, Daryl Green, 33 Sammy Ball, already retired, 42 Charlie Taylor, 44 John Riggins, 49 Bobby Mitchell, and 81 Art Monk. Those are seven absolute, no discussion, no debate. If we're going to retire jerseys, which we are now doing, they get retired. On the list that's just on the outside looking in that can get in, and I could be convinced of it,

but it's not a no-brainer for me. Seven Joe Thysman, 21 Sean Taylor for the extenuating circumstances around his career. rear here. And by the way, the prerogative that the owner has to put in the one player that he truly was attached to, Ken Houston's 27, Larry Brown's 43, Chris Hamburger's 55, Joe Jacoby's 66, Russ Grimm's 68, and Sam Huff's 70. That's on the outside. It's debatable. You could convince me, but it's not a no-brainer they have to be in. And then on the, you. true outside looking in that I don't think would be deserving of being retired, but they are all, but they're, they're great and they're notable. 17 Doug Williams, 30 Brian Mitchell, 37 Pat

Fisher, 51 Monty Coleman, 65 Dave Butts, 72 Dexter Manly, 84 Gary Clark, and 87 Jerry Smith. But the seven that should go in in the order, you know, it should have been 33, then 49, then nine. And I think after nine should be 42 Charlie Taylor, then 44 John Riggins, and then 28 and 81. That's the way I would do the next, because we have one, two, three of that list. We've got three.

Of the next four in order, I would do Taylor, Riggins, Daryl Green, Art Monk. And by the way, I'm doing that based on how much, long ago, they would have been retired before Green and Monk had you been retiring jerseys all along? I would put Darrell Green ahead of Charlie Taylor. That's the only change I would make. Other than that, you know what, you nailed it.

Well, I know a little bit about the organization, even though I haven't written best-selling books about the organization. No, the Darrell Green thing, in terms of the greatest players, if you were going to do it in that order, I would agree with you. But what I would, what I just did there was just to say, all right, if we had been retiring jerseys all along, the chronological order would have been Baugh, Jurgensen, Taylor, or Jurgensen, Mitchell, Taylor, Riggins, Green, Monk, or Monk, actually. I mean, Green retired after Monk.

But in terms of the greatest players, you know, Mount Rush. more of players, Darrell Green's on it. There's no doubt. Yes. Okay, so since you, so I reminded you of what I'd done there with you several times, and I appreciate the fact that you didn't back off what your original response was. The several responses have been previously. Can we just talk about Sunny for one second? Because there are a lot of people that listen to this podcast, and we know that we have a lot of younger listeners. You saw him play at his best. I saw him play at the very end of his career. You know, and I remember those 70s George Allen teams with Sunny on it. I don't remember the Lombardi season. You know, I don't remember the 1970 season. But this is right after Sammy Baugh,

no debate, the second greatest quarterback in the history of the franchise. And in fact, you probably have a long way to go to get to number three. Yes, absolutely. Look, Sports Illustrated some years back named Sonny Jurgensen the greatest pure passer in a history of the league. Yeah. Okay, I mean, he was that respected for his passing ability. And I think, I don't think that's far-fetched saying something like that. he had that kind of arm

and I mean that's the best I could say I mean he's one of the best pure passers I ever saw you know a guy who you feared if you had to play

I mean you know I mean the last thing you wanted to do a lot of times is say Sonny Jurgensen because you know you have your work cut out for you but for people who study quarterbacks

he's among the greatest passers of all time, which is, I mean, the art of passing I'm talking about. Right. You know, not necessarily his numbers, his accomplishments, or anything like that. But basically the position is the main goal of the position is to throw the ball. And he probably did it as well or better than anybody. You know, that's always been the thing that has been attached to Sunny, you know, the greatest

pure passer or one of the greatest pure passers in the history of the game. You know, Namath was considered an incredible pure passer. Marino, for the quarterbacks that I truly remember, I think Marino or Elway are probably the greatest pure passers in terms of the way they spun it. Marino, for me, in terms of just flat out throwing the football, I'm not sure in my lifetime of watching football I've ever seen anybody spin it the way he spun it. But Sonny's, the reason Sonny Jurgensen isn't. consistently considered one of the 10, 15 greatest.

You know, after 15, Sunny starts to enter the conversation on any quarterback list. You know, it's because he didn't win. But it wasn't because of him. His teams in the 60s in Washington were prolific offensive teams for the day. They just had horrendous defensive teams. I mean, this guy was a consistent pro bowler and, you know, all pro, you know, MVP candidate. His last year in Philadelphia, which was the year after they won the title with Van Brockland, right, Tommy, in 1960? The Eagles.

Sonny was the starter the next year in Philadelphia. And they had a good team. And it was his first year starting. They went 10 and 4. He threw 32 touchdown passes in 1961. the runner up to, I think, I'm guessing Jim Brown for MVP. No, Paul Horning, excuse me, runner up to Paul Horning for MVP. And so there were years he had in Washington that for the time were incredible seasons. You know, you can't look at the interception totals because they just

threw more interceptions back in the day. And defense has got to basically mug receivers all across the field. What I remember is I remember, member that, you know, my first memories of this team are the George Allen years. And Billy Kilmer was here. And that created the first, you know, of what would become, you know, years long quarterback controversies in this town with this football team. Billy or Sonny and they ended up, you know, they were the best of friends. But I wanted to mention something that I don't think a lot of people know that when Sonny was on a good team like he was that year in Philadelphia, 10 and 4 as a starter, And then when he got traded, you know, in one of the great fleeces of all time,

you know, Sonny Jurgensen for Norm Sneed and Claude Crab in 64. He got here. The first really good, you know, coach he had was Lombardi. He went 7, 5, and 2. And I know you know this, and maybe many people who are listening know it too. Sonny's always said that if Lombardi lived that it would have been the best part of his career, he would have won big for those final five, six years of his career, but Lombardi passed after one year.

And then you had Bill Austin in 1970 who took over for Lombardy, and then they hired Allen. Well, Alan, as we both know, Sunny was not super fond of because George Allen was all about defense, special teams, and please offense, don't want to. ruin it for us. And that's not the kind of quarterback that Sunny was. But Sonny under George Allen had a lot of injuries toward the Achilles in 72. But as a starting quarterback for George Allen, 71, 72, 73, 74, he was 11 and 2 as a starting quarterback with a good defense and good special teams and a good head coach. If Sunny had been on decent teams, he would have had the results.

And in 72, if he doesn't tear his Achilles, that team may be better than 11 and 3, which was their regular season record. And they probably beat the dolphins in Super Bowl 7. And we wouldn't have to be talking all these years about the only team to go start to finish through the Super Bowl undefeated, the 72 dolphins. You do remember.

That's a reasonable conclusion, yes. You do remember the lunch with a legend that we did with Sonny. Oh, yeah. So good. He was great that day. Absolutely. I mean, that's what I tell people, you know, I describe moments like that as a gift I've been given for the job I do. This is one of the gifts that I got.

And it was knowing Sonny Jurgensen and spending that time interviewing them. Absolutely. There is, I've told you this before, I've told the listeners this before, because you know, this was not my first, you know, sort of professional career. It was in something else. And when I got into broadcasting and quickly I was put as the host of the pregame show and the post game show there for a few years, but I did the pregame show for 14 years, 13 or 14 years, whatever it was.

And for 12 of those 13 or 14 years, every single Sunday before the game, there was a segment with Sonny Jurgensen. And that was, for me, like the greatest, thrill. Not just that, but you had the opportunity to do this a lot as well. Being with Sunny. You know, you and I hosted events with Sunny and Sam. I know I did several of them with Larry. I did a couple of them by myself or it was just Sunny Sam and I, you know, doing corporate events or whatever. And spending those times, like you and I remember this a couple of times with you. getting to the stadium for a game where I had to do the pregame show from the booth

because it was a Monday night game or a Sunday night game or a Thursday game and whenever we did that we would do our show from the actual booth and I would stay there and do the pregame show and Sunny always got to the game well in advance of my pregame show ever starting and we would just sit there in that little waiting room outside of the booth or outside of that area and just talk to him. He was such a great guy. It was amazing.

Yes. It was absolutely amazing to have that, to have that be able to do that. I remember too many times, and this was also a thrill for me. I don't want to make this about us, but we've already talked about Sonny's career, although just remind me to tell you about one game, which to me, Sunny told me it's multiple times this game was so memorable for him. But I can remember sometimes, as you know, after doing the pregame show in the booth, or if I decided to stay for the game after doing the pregame show, I would have watched it from the booth. And Larry was great.

You know, he didn't mind me being in there. And, you know, sometimes it, you know, before Cooley, it was Sonny Sam and Larry. And then Cooley was in the booth. But I can't tell you how many times, like if I was watching that game in the booth, like during a break, sunny would, you know, take his headset off, turn around and start talking to me. He's like, can you believe they did that or whatever? And I'm like, I'm sitting here watching the game and talking about the game with Sunny. I mean, the only thrill that would have been greater is the thrill that obviously Larry and Frank Herzog had,

which was calling games with him every week. I wanted to mention this one game. In 72, he tore his Achilles against the Giants at Yankee Stadium, and Kilmer took him the rest of the way, and they went to Super Bowl 7 and lost to the Dolphins. the next time Washington the Redskins played the Dolphins was during the 74 regular season. And Sunny was the starting quarterback for the game against the dolphins at RFK that year. And he has told me many times that that is the moment. That was his Super Bowl because he didn't get to play against the dolphins in Super Bowl 7.

But he started against the Dolphins on Sunday, October 13th, 197. 74 at RFK Stadium. The Dolphins, by the way, were the two time at that point defending Super Bowl champions. They won in 72 against Washington, and then in 73, they beat the Vikings in Super Bowl 8. And they came in, and the dolphins were, you know, everything back then. Remember how great they were. You know, there were like six or seven marquee franchises, you know, the dolphins, the Steelers, the Raiders, in the AFC, the Cowboys. The Redskins were one of those teams in the 70s as well, the Rams, the Vikings,

and it was a big regular season game. And Sunny, it was a back and forth game, and with a minute 40 to go from their own 20-yard line, Sunny was perfect on a two-minute drive, leading him down the field and throwing a touchdown pass to Larry Smith, who was there running back or fullback, with eight seconds to go in the game to beat the dolphins 20 to 17. He threw for over 300 yards in the game against the vaunted dolphin defense. And he's told both of us this before. He's told me this before.

He said, that game was my Super Bowl. That was it. You know, the rest of the 74 season was back and forth between him and Kilmer. And he ended up coming in for Kilmer in the playoff game against the Rams at the Coliseum in December. of 74 in what would be his final game. He was 40 years old. When he beat the dolphins in October of that year, he was 40. And in the playoff game, he came in for Kilmer, who was ineffective in a very close playoff game against the Rams and the L.A. Coliseum, and he threw three second

half interceptions in his final game. The last one returned for a touchdown by Isaiah Robertson, the great Rams linebacker from the day. And the Rams won the game 19 to 10. They were driving for field goal range in the fourth quarter to win the game and Sonny threw a pick six. But that was it. You know, that was the end of his career, 40 years old, 1974, and that was it. And, you know, obviously he was in the Hall of Fame a few years later. But that, that Dolphins game, I was a kid, but I remember that game. I remember talking to Sonny.

He said, that was my Super Bowl game, beating the Dolphins. 80 yards. I think he was perfect on that drive. I've looked for the play-by-play from that game, but they just didn't have it from those games back then. But they rallied. They scored 17 in the fourth quarter and beat the Dolphins 20 to 17. Anyway.

You know, we're talking about Sonny's accomplishments as a player. What really was the gift, what really was the greatness of Sonny Jurgerson to Washington, was that he continued to connect for the next 40 years. with generations of Washington football fans as the radio voice for the team. He didn't leave town and go to something else. He was part of that team,

arguably the voice of the team and sometimes the face of the team for four more decades. I know. I mean, it was just an incredible love affair that Sunny had with the city. I mean, I think for many years, it wasn't close. in terms of who the all-time beloved Washington Redskin was.

You know, even, you know, through the Gibbs Super Bowl years, like, you know, I think maybe now people would have a lot of different answers because, you know, it's been a long time now. But for many years, Sunny was the answer to that question. Sunny was the number one, all-time beloved guy. You know, when Vince Sculley, passed away recently. I mentioned that one of the games that Vince Scully really isn't known for, I think you and I talked

about this, perhaps, was that Vince Scully called the catch. He was the lead play-by-play voice for the 1981 season NFC title game between the Cowboys and the 49ers at Candlestick. and it's because Madden, you know, was in his first year of being on the number one team with Summerall, but he didn't want to take the, he didn't want to fly. So they had Vince Scully call the championship game, and then they had Madden in Detroit for the Super Bowl, the Super Bowl that Joe Montana won over Ken Anderson in Cincinnati. But as I was looking up, you know, if Vince Scully had done any other game,

NFC championship games. He did, again, the game in 81 with Hank Stram. I found this. The 1975 NFC championship game on CBS was called by Vin Scully as well with Sonny Jurgensen. On CBS in 1975, the NFC title game between the Cal in the Rams, the Coliseum in L.A. The Cowboys crushed the Rams that day, went on to the Super Bowl. The CBS team was Vince Scully and Sonny Jurgensen,

and the sideline reporter was Sam Huff on CBS television. At least according to Wikipedia, that's the only NFC title game that Sunny did. Sonny did TV for CBS right when his career ended for several years. Yes, he did. Yes, he did. And then he went into the radio booth in 78, I think it was, with Sam and Frank. But, yeah, it's weird because I think everybody remembers Pat Summerall and Tom Brookshire before Pat Sumerall and John Madden.

And Summerall and Brookshire were a phenomenal television team. But for whatever reason, there are several NFC championship games where it wasn't Summerall and Brookshire. Vince Scully did the 77 NFC championship game with Alex Hawkins in Dallas between the Cowboys and the Vikings. But yes, Sunny was then, did the NFC championship game on CBS and 75 between the Cowboys and the Rams with Sam Huff as the sideline reporter. I'd love, I need to find that game on YouTube somewhere.

I'm sure it exists somewhere. Anyway. You know what Sunny told me? You know what Sonny told me? We read it through some of my notes. He said when he tore his Achilles in 72, and they went to the Super Bowl, George Allen wouldn't even let Sonny stand on the sideline with the team.

I remember you telling me that, yeah. He had to go up to a booth by himself. Yeah. That was bad. He was not a big fan of George. I mean, I remember some of those conversations. and he was bitter. It wasn't that he was bitter.

It just wasn't his kind of coach because they didn't really, you know, George didn't want him chucking the ball all around the park and that's what Sonny wanted to do. But look, the proofs in the results on who was right. George Allen was one of the greatest coaches that ever lived and he turned this town onto football like nobody did. I know, and I get into arguments,

every once in a while with other people. But Ernie Bauer in particular, I think, has always backed me up on this. I know that the Redskins were super popular in the 60s because of Sunny, but they were a bad team. What really started the passionate love affair with the team was George Allen coming here in 71 and turning them into a contender, a perennial contender, because from 71 until Gibbs left in in the spring of 93 after the 92 season, Washington during that 21-year span was one of the most successful organizations in all the sports. And George Allen started that. Anyway, congrats, Sonny. I had a feeling, you know, and I expressed my feeling. I think maybe you did, too.

I know I expressed it directly to them last, after the Sean Taylor's thing. I just said, the next one has to be Sonny Jurgensen. Has to be. And I think everybody was telling them that, and I'm happy for it. I hope the Dallas game when we get there. I really hope that it's a meaningful game for the home team

and that it's not 12 degrees above zero. Yeah. Because it certainly seems like it may have made more sense to do it earlier in the season on a nice fall day, you know, against a team that wasn't going to hack the park with their own fans, the opposing fans.

Right, you know, sort of like a homecoming game. A homecoming game. Yeah, exactly. I mean, they could have done it. They could have done it when Kirk Cousins and the Minnesota Vikings come back because Kirk broke a lot of Sunny's records. That's right. We've got a couple of other things to end the show with. We'll get to those right after these words from a few of our sponsors. So there was another big story in town today. Monumental Sports, which owned a stake in NBC Sports Washington, but NBC Universal owned the majority of it.

Well, they acquired 100% of the equity, monumental sports did in NBC Sports, Washington. NBC Sports Washington, for those of you who don't know, has been the exclusive television rights, for the Wizards and the Caps, and has been a huge partner of the Washington football organization, including the home for all of the preseason games that you've been watching with Doc Walker and Kenny Albert,

and a lot of the post-game shows that run after the game over the years. But Ted Leonis and Monumental are purchasing all of NBC Sports Washington. What's your reaction to this? Well, I mean, a lot of people see a scenario unfolding where Ted winds up purchasing the Washington Nationals, this massive thing gets resolved and disappears, and Ted winds up putting the nationals baseball games on his new network, on his own regional sports network. I wonder if he'll call it monumental sports the entire network now. I mean, I would. I mean, if I was Ted, that's his name. He created it.

But, I mean, that makes more sense than just the wizards and the capitals and whatever else they put on there these days. So, I mean, it certainly lends cretice the idea that Ted has his eye. on the nationals as part of that network package. Now, and I'm not presuming to be a better businessman than Ted Leone's, but the regional sports network business these days is not a great business to be in. Why is that? Okay. I mean, the yes, I mean, some of them are.

Subscribers are dropping off. Right. Just like every other, you know, cable business. and the subscribers are where the money is. Now, I would assume that Ted, being a forward-thinking guy, would certainly bring whatever that network winds up being into the 21st century in terms of streaming and stuff like that. But it's just not, like Sinclair bought a bunch of regional networks a couple years ago

in some kind of deal with Fox, if I remember, where they had to take them, I think. and then they're trying to figure out a way to really monetize them. It's a struggling business where just a few years ago it was a very profitable business. But I'm sure Ted will figure it out. And again, you know, here's the thing that he needs to do, Kevin. He needs to give us a show on the network. Am I right?

Right? Yeah, sure. I mean, if he wants to. If he really, if he would. Do you think he would? If he wants to make this a go, put it on the map, okay? Everybody listening? Ted Leonsis needs to give us a show on his new monumental sports network.

Look, I'm not about to knock monumental sports or criticize it or criticize this transaction. I don't know enough about the transaction. I'll take your word for it that these regional networks are struggling, and that may have created the opportunity for him. to buy the remainder of what he didn't own. It was two-thirds that he didn't own for a really good financial price. I've never had the sense that Ted really understands what moves the needle in this town, in part because he didn't own the property that moves the needle in this town.

And make no mistake, as bad and as critical as we are of the Washington, football franchise, the commanders, the number of people interested in that team dwarfs any other team in town. Like, it's not even close. And so all of the ancillary, you know, discussion and programming and content has, you know, flourished over the years. I mean, I mean, I, we're lucky that we, you know, we weren't sitting there with the focus, on the caps or the wizards. And I love the wizards. You know how much I love the wizards.

And I wish that they were a powerhouse. But the truth is, like, you know, there are people that could explain this even better than I because some people in media had a focus on wizard's caps, Nats. And then all of a sudden, Ben Standings, a perfect example. Ben was covering, you know, every other team in town except for the football team.

And when he got put on the football team, beat his whole life changed professionally in terms of the interest level and the number of people that you know that kind of follow his work. And I've always had this sense and I'm not criticizing his business expertise or the deals that he's done are the growth of the go-goes or his esports teams or anything like that. And I'm not saying that they're not wildly profitable ventures. But I've always just had this sense. that, you know, he doesn't really get it in terms of why the football team has so many more people in town that are interested in it. Because it's been so poorly owned compared to him as an owner.

And it's been, the results have been so poor. And by the way, the numbers aren't what they used to be clearly. But still, more people probably watch the pre-seats. game on Saturday against the Chiefs, then we'll watch any regular season Wizards or Caps game this year. And if that's not true, it used to be true. And it was true. It's certainly true when it comes to regular season games. And the numbers, you know, even though the numbers have dropped significantly in terms of television numbers, it's still apples and oranges compared to the other teams in town. Well, if Ted wants to show that he truly understands what moves the needle, the needle starts right here, baby.

You and me. Yeah, I don't think he gets that, though, and I don't know that his son gets it, and I know Zach, I think, is a big part of it. And, I mean, you and I don't know Ted well. We've obviously had conversations with Ted over the years and interaction with Ted, but I don't know Ted well. I know that I think he's, you know, a decent owner. I think the live products that he's been able to create are pretty damn good, certainly compared to the football team. The team that he owns that I care the most about are the wizards,

and that's been, you know, kind of a disaster, you know, while he's owned it. And it was before he owned it when Abe owned it, you know? I mean, it's been forever. But, yeah, I mean, look, the businesses they may be getting into, may not be like the most significant in terms of revenue possibilities, but they may be much more profitable, you know, as niche businesses. Now, I do know this, monumental as a whole, has really grown revenue. Like, it's a significant company. And they've done a great job. But I just, I guess where I'm getting with this is I wonder what NBC Sports Washington or

monumental sports owning this network will do with the football team. If it'll be kind of dwarfed in its coverage, if it will be deemphasized. I don't know. Well, I can tell you that in cost-cutting measures that took place over that network, the first thing to go was coverage of the national. I know. And by the way, you could make the case, well, easily the case, that the nationals are a much more popular product than the two teams he owns.

Yeah. In terms of volume and numbers of people interested. And it's the game itself. Again, part of the reason that the football team is so popular despite itself is because it's an NFL product. Right. I mean, there's a built-in safety net there. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, they're not dumb. They're obviously not going to get rid of. of products on that network that actually people watch and that they make money to put on much lower volume product that many fewer viewers are interested in. But, you know, there's so many things they'll be doing, I'm sure, and so much of their product will be streamed and consumed in ways that we can't even imagine

because, as we know, Ted is a technological genius, just ask him. Do you remember? I mean, some of those days, when we did that lunch with a legend with him, I enjoyed it. He can talk, man. There's no doubt. But in between every break, I mean, he, it wasn't that he was lecturing us,

but he certainly was, as he was in those early days, because, you know, I got emails from him. Zave got emails from him. Mandy did about just how we were going to be. doomed by not doing a lot more hockey on sports talk radio. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I remember those days. And I just remember telling him, and this is a long time ago now, things have changed, but I remember specifically saying to him, Ted, if I talked about hockey when you want me

to talk about it and how much you want me to talk about it, this would be our last show today with you. This would be it. I mean, we can, when the, the, When the playoffs come around, it's exciting to talk about it, and I like watching playoff hockey, and people get into it then, but you can't do a hockey, you can't emphasize hockey in the middle of football season. Not a good idea. By the way, I don't know if it's a good idea in any city, let alone this one. And that's with diminishing interest in the football team as it has diminished significantly, exponentially, in recent years.

I don't know. I think it's interesting. I'd love to know what they paid for the rest of it. Like, I don't know what those things are worth. It's not the Yes Network, clearly. No, I don't know. He owned one third of it before. Yeah, exactly. They owned a third of it. Do you think he's going to buy the Nats or not? Do you think he and Rubenstein together are going to buy the Nats? I think Ler Lekino's going to wind up being the owner of Nats. You still think that, huh? Yes, I do.

Okay. That doesn't mean Ted won't be involved. That doesn't mean Ted won't be involved. Maybe Larry Lekino will be the head guy in a group that includes Ted. But I think the main guy went all said and done. It's going to be Larry Lekino. Now, what's interesting is there's breaking news as we speak. The Los Angeles Angels are up for sale.

Artie Marino just put. the Angels up for sale in a surprise announcement this morning. So I can't think that that's good for the nationals to have, I mean, part of the allure, part of the allure of owning a sports team is how difficult it is to get into the club. You know, and now there's two entryways into the club. There's another door on the West Coast where you can get in. Right. I don't think that's good news for the learners.

And it's L.A. Yeah. Although it's very difficult to compete with the Dodgers. Right. Really? That's part of the reason why your team's for sale. Sure. So that's actually a perfect segue into this last, and I'll get to it real quickly.

Forbes put out their list, their NFL valuation list yesterday, and a lot of you sent it to me, and a lot of you said, look, Washington's valuations. is up 33%. And that's true. It is up 33%. Washington comes in with a value at $5.6 billion. That's the Forbes value in Washington. They're the sixth most valuable franchise in the NFL. Last year, they were fifth. They're sixth in the NFL this year. The Cowboys value, according to Forbes, is $8 billion. dollars. I mean, it's just unbelievable. And part of the story also describes that the Cowboys are now doing over a billion dollars in revenue. So understand that they are way ahead of the rest of the NFL. But a lot of you just suggested, Cscian, they're still, you know, Dan Snyder

still making out. Well, of course. I mean, he bought the team for $800 million in 1999. It's worth, it's not worth $5.6 billion. It's probably worth $6 billion plus. because, you know, these are just estimated values. That's not what the team would sell for necessarily if it became available because it's a supply and demand game. We saw that with the Denver sale. So I wanted to just mention this. There's a lot of information in this story from Forbes.

Information that, you know, Washington dropped from five to six in terms of the most valuable NFL franchise. They used to be number two back in the day to the California. They're number six now. They dropped one spot. Their 33% increase is a little bit higher than the average increase. But understand this. Every NFL team increased significantly in value for a few reasons.

Number one is this incredible new media deal that kicks in next year. Number two is the Broncos sold for $4.65 billion. That, by the way, was 24% higher than where, Forbes had them valued a year ago. So that upped it for everybody. And then understand that last year's values were coming off a pandemic year in which teams didn't generate revenue. So everybody is up across the board. That's the reason Washington's up 33 percent.

And other teams are up, you know, 40 or more percent. And other teams are, the teams that are up a lower percentage tend to be smaller. market teams. But anyway, what was included in this story was each team's operating income number. And basically what that is, it's just consider like, you know, overall revenue minus costs and it's kind of a pre-tax number. And Washington's operating income of $130.3 million is 18th in the league. 18th. That's a much more significant number if they're not going to sell the team. If Dan's not going to sell it, then their overall value, because it doesn't matter where it's valued if you're not going to sell it. You'll never see that liquidity unless you sell it. Now, he could use this kind of value or a higher value, and they wouldn't use the Forbes value, but they would use some way to come up with a value if he ended up selling a minority stake, which I still think Tommy's ability to pay off that loan.

that you reported, you were the first to report, he took on debt from the league to buy out his minority shareholders. But as an example, like Dallas has operating income of $465.9 million. Washington's is the lowest of any of the teams with the values in the top 10, and they're 18th overall in the league. And the 14 teams that are below them are all smaller market teams. Now, what we're talking about here is basically the revenue drop for Washington, which is why they're operating income is so low. It's not because their costs have skyrocketed. It's because their revenue is much lower than most of the teams in the league, especially in markets their size. Remember, 61, before spell it out, 61% plus of the revenue comes from all of the media.

The TV deals, the streaming deals, all of it. And then the rest is all of the revenue. that the teams get to keep on their own. You know, ticket revenue, and that would be general seating and premium seating, which means club and suites, sponsorship advertising dollars, and then a category they call other. That's where Washington,

and it's not reflected in this story, but you can tell by their operating income number, that's where they have just fallen off a cliff. And compared to the cowboys, like if you do the math, Washington probably does 450 million in revenue somewhere around there. The Cowboys do a billion in revenue. Washington, remember, it was a Snyder Jerry Jones arms race, Tommy, for 10 years after Snyder bought the team.

Washington was right there with the Cowboys, number two in overall value, number two in revenue, number two in profit. You know, Snyder was milking every nickel out of it. can't get it anymore. They're way down there. 18th for them in this market in operating income is... This is where the league, Tommy, says, look at what Washington's missing out on. I mean, and that's...

They understand what is being under-leveraged and under-utilized here. But go ahead. What we're going to say? Here's the difference between Jerry and... Dan. Whenever Washington gets around to opening their new football stadium, the suites are going to be sold by a company owned by Jerry Jones. Why do you say that? Is that true? It's true. He owns a major piece of legends, a hospitality marketing company that sells suites and sponsorships for a number of NFL teams, including the Raiders in their new stadium.

I thought you were... I thought you were going to say, all you need to know about the difference between these two is when Dan opens up a new stadium, whenever that is, and wherever that is, it's going to be half the size of Jerry World. Half. I mean, it's not literally going to be half,

but in terms of what the Cowboys can actually fit into that place, it's going to be half. And by the way, depending on how the team's doing, they probably won't sell it out a whole bunch. But that's down the road. Probably. Things could change. And who knows, maybe Dan won't own the team.

I mean, Tommy, he could get $6 billion or more for this team right now. He'd be able to net, you know, after he pays back the debt he took on to pay off his minority shareholders, he would probably net $4 to $4.4.5 billion. You know what he could do? He could buy the whole Mediterranean Sea and keep that for its vote. To float around. He could buy the whole C with that money. This has been a long show today.

Yeah, but I got one last thing, very brief. Okay, so do I, but you go first. Okay, I want to mention somebody who passed away, who was big, heavily involved in Washington Media for years. That's Ken Meath. Oh, my God, I saw that. Yes. Yeah, who was one of the announcers on Channel 9,

was one of the guys when I first came to town was very friendly to me, very helpful to me, one of the good guys in the media business, when a media business was much more enjoyable than it is these days. So I just want everybody to remember Ken Meese. I'm glad you mentioned that. I really am. I did not know Ken, but his son Bart is a phenomenal golfer, Am and her golfer in town. A really good friend of C.J.'s, by the way. And I don't think I ever met Ken Meese.

And if I did, it was, you know, briefly. But he was, you know, the Channel 9 number two guy for years. He was never the number one guy. Always the number two guy. But I know this, that people who knew him said he was one of the real good guys and had a phenomenal sense of humor is what they all. always said about Ken Meese is that he had an incredible quick sense of humor. So to his family, we certainly send our sympathies.

I just wanted to mention this because it was another one of these stories that was breaking as we were getting ready to do the podcast today. Kevin Durant's going nowhere. Brooklyn apparently met with Kevin Durant, and Brooklyn came out with a statement from the GM, Sean Marks, who, if you recall, Kevin Durant gave the ultimatum to the owner, Joe Si, two weeks ago, get Nash out and Marks out and I'll stay. Well, Marks isn't going anywhere.

And Marks put out the following statement. Steve Nash and I, together with Joe Si and Clara Wu Sai met with Kevin Durant and Rich Climb in his agent, I guess, in Los Angeles yesterday. We have agreed to move forward with our partnership. We are focusing on basketball with one collective goal in mind, build a lasting franchise, to bring a championship to Brooklyn. You know what? Good for the Brooklyn Nets. It's not that I'm trying to say that to say they got Kevin Durant.

It's that you can't give somebody everything he wants and then also be the entity that suffers because he decides he doesn't want to be a part of it anymore. If you could have gotten a trade that was an all-time trade that could have made walking away from Kevin Durant palatable for your franchise moving forward. That's one thing. But I said it from the beginning, Tommy. If they don't get an Anthony Davis or better trade, sorry, Kevin, you're staying here.

And no, we're not firing Sean Marks or Steve Nash, even though I don't personally think Steve Nash is the right guy for the job. But if Durant had been able to talk himself or talk them in to trading him after he signed that with four years left on it, and they gave him every single thing he wanted, the co-coach and Steve Nash, all of the players, you know, including Kyrie Irving, everybody, and everything that he wanted, man, it would have reached a point in the NBA where we understand it's a player-driven league, but to me that would have been really cowtowing to something that you shouldn't do. I mean, it would have been in a, in the

worst interest of the Brooklyn Nets to just trade Kevin Durant for just a decent deal because he decided he didn't want to play there anymore and he wanted to go play for a winner. The thing about Kevin Durant is even if he's unhappy with this, he will play. He's a competitor. And when the lights come on and the games start, he may hold some grudges. He may have some social media issues, but on the court, badass. And we'll give it everything he has. And the best chance Brooklyn has to compete for anything of note is to have Kevin Durant and Kyrie Irving play for the team, not be somewhere else. And of course, with Kyrie, it depends on him actually joining the rest of the world and being a normal person. We'll see if that happens. I'm glad

Brooklyn held tight there. And maybe Kevin Durant came back to him and said, okay, I get it. But the bottom line is nobody offered him anywhere near enough. You know why? Because Kevin Durant's 34 years old. And Kevin Durant at this point, talking himself out of Brooklyn would not have been a good look for him. Even in this day and age of player empowerment and player entitlement and players having

the last say in everything in that league. You got anything else? Nothing else for you, boss. I enjoyed the show today. People should pay money to let them to this show today. Absolutely. I enjoyed the show today. And you know what we're going to talk about at some point in the next few days?

Jonathan Banks and the interview you did with him appearing on this podcast. Have a great day, everybody. Back tomorrow. I think with somebody you haven't heard from in a while, Chris Cooley. We'll see if it works out. I talked to him. He said he's working on a few things and he might have some information. on the commanders for us tomorrow.

Have a great day.