The Kevin Sheehan Show - Clear Path To Dan's Exit

Episode Date: July 18, 2023

Kevin and Thom today talking about the final days of Snyder. The boys discussed the Washington Post report that the NFL Finance Committee has approved the Josh Harris deal and that Snyder and the league have resolved their legal issues. Snyder also met with Mary Jo White according to the Post report. Now comes a vote on Thursday and the closing of the purchase shortly thereafter. The guys talked about the moment they knew Snyder as an owner had doomed the franchise. They also discussed where the Snyder exit ranks among the most important DC "non-game" sports stories. Some Ohtani and Thom's Hemingway "Look-Alike" contest prep was part of the show as well.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Cheehan Show. Here's Kevin. Tommy's here. I am here. The show today is brought to you by MyBooky.

Go to MyBooky.orgie. Or MyBooky.com. Use my promo code Kevin, D.C. And you'll be able to secure a first deposit bonus of up to $1,000. I mentioned on yesterday's show, which, by the way, Len Shapiro was on with me, Tommy. I really like Len. He was great. He broke a couple of, I shouldn't say he broke.

He gave me two things that I had never heard of that I'm going to ask you if you heard about previously in a moment. But I mentioned in my My Bookie read that Washington, Arizona in Week 1 has the lowest over-under total of any game at 39 and a half by a full point. a point and a half. And I said, nobody's really expecting much offensively from either one of these two teams with Colt McCoy and Sam Hal at quarterback in the opener. And a couple of people took exception to it, including Denny. Denny writes, Sheean, can you leave Sam Hal alone in his only start they put up 26 against the Cowboys? You're right. I forgot about that big season-ending

offensive output. By the way, didn't they have a pick six in that game? Didn't Kendall Fuller have a pick six? There was a defensive touchdown in that game? I think there was. I think there was. Yeah. But the point is that you weren't making a big deal, but you were just reporting the facts. Yeah, I just said, clearly the odds makers are not expecting, you know, an offensive shootout. They're not expecting chargers, you know, dolphins from the early 80s. That's not what they're or Chiefs Rams from a couple of years ago. These are children throwing tantrums about Sam How. I mean, really, it's what it is.

I mean, that's a tantrum. Don't, you know, cover my ears and go la, la, la, la, la, la, la. That's what they're doing. I'll just remind Denny that Dallas's punter dropped a snap that set up the first score. Kendall Fuller had a pick six in the game. So that's basically 14 of the 26. Well, if you get a bunch of defensive touchdowns and a bunch of turnovers, you can get a game to go over.

But the bottom line is, of all of the week one games, this is supposed to be the lowest scoring game of week one. Hey, maybe they'll soar over the total. In week two at Denver, the total will be 58 and a half because Sam Hal is going to have 400 yards and six touchdowns in week one. Go to my bookie. or my bookie.com using my promo code, Kevin D.C. So, Tommy, for those that, you know, and there were still a few stragglers there at the end saying, I'll believe it when I see it.

And we don't have the vote yet from Thursday in Minneapolis, and we don't have at this point the actual closing and the wiring of money. But Mark Maskey, Nikki Javala yesterday, reporting that the NFL finance committee met remotely on Monday and voted informally to recommend approval of Josh Harris's deal. And also that attorneys for the NFL and for Dan Snyder reached an agreement that resolved their remaining legal issues. So any sort of hurdles left have been cleared and the sale is expected to close as soon as Friday. So here we are. Amazing, actually. Now, when they reported they met remotely, does that mean they met in a real place real far away?

Or did they meet electronically? I think it means they met electronically. It's possible that they were in Wildwood, New Jersey, meeting on Monday, which is where you were, I think, over the weekend. But no, I think it means that the NFL Finance Committee They didn't meet remotely in Sudan. I think it was just... Because remotely means, you know, if somebody's remote, they're far away.

Yes. Well, they may have been far away. They may have been far away. So, look, you know, I know a lot of people have sort of... Doc, as an example, I was talking to Doc the other day, and he just said, I'm not, I still, I still don't believe it. I said, yes, you do. You know this is happening.

And he said, no, I know, I know Dan well in. enough to know that, you know, something could be coming here at the end to blow up the whole deal. But I think we're going to get through this. And there was another little ditty in the Maskey and Nikki Javala story, which, you know, would have been a headline in any other situation. And that is that Snyder met with Mary Joe White and that the Mary Joe White investigation and report is going to be released soon after the close of this sale. Remember, most people, me included, thought, yeah, good luck getting Dan to sit down with you now,

now that the team is on the verge of being sold and he's got a fully executed agreement. But apparently he did so, I think earlier, where was it written? It occurred this month, earlier this month that he sat down and met with her. how cooperative Snyder wasn't answering investigators' questions was not necessarily known or clear. But he met with Mary Jo White. That's actually a surprise. Yes. Yes, it is, but it may have been the final hurdle to get this thing done.

You know, supposedly all the questions about indemnification are out of the way now. Yeah. So I'll be real curious what the Snyder, what the Mary Jo White report has. I mean, you've said this, and I agree with you, it could come down to this. You know, who do you believe? Who does Mary Jo White believe? She doesn't, it's not a court of law, okay? She doesn't need to convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt.

the witnesses, Mary Tiffany Johnson and Jason Friedman, who we will talk about later on, who claimed to be a witness to one of these incidents. Are they more credible to her or is Dan Snyder more credible to her

if he sat there and denied everything? Yeah, I think... That's really, I think it's still going to come down to that. Who's more credible to her? Right. It's very possible because Howard has said this before, Neil has said this before, that she doesn't have a conclusion to anything related to either Tiffany Johnston or Jason Friedman, but that she expresses what she believes likely happened.

Yeah, that could happen. So we'll see. I mean, look, the NFL has been, you know, Neil keeps reminding me about this. The NFL committed to being transparent about the investigation into the Tiffany Johnston allegations. They have not committed, they've committed to being transparent about the Mary Joe White investigation, but it was specific early on to the thing that, you know, sort of started it, which was that roundtable where Tiffany Johnston claimed that, you know, she was, he had his hand on her leg underneath that table at that dinner and that he tried.

tried to, you know, shove her into his vehicle. Yeah, which Jason Friedman was the one witness to the latter. Yeah. Anyway, the Jason Friedman stuff that you just referred to was the first story that came out yesterday. And I had a reaction to that on the podcast because that was out yesterday.

But Friedman is suing the team for defamation. And, you know, he's suing the team, And he's suing that guy Brownlee, the attorney. You know, Brownlee was that guy Tommy that literally put that nine-page letter out to the House Oversight and Reform Committee, basically blaming Bruce for everything. And you and I sat here and we talked about it. And I just, I went through all of the attachments that he had to that letter. And I'm like, well, that's dated 2003. That's 2002.

That's 2006. How can you put on any of this on Bruce? He didn't get here. until the end of 2009. The whole strategy of having that guy out there, I think, backfired on them. We kind of felt that in the moment. I'm curious, how many lawyers that Dan Snyder has employed, who basically when they look back on their experience,

they think I never should have gotten involved with him, even if they cashed a big paycheck. Well, you know, they did that. I mean, John... They did that. Well, John Brownlee was a celebrated figure in the dopesick investigation. Right. He was the federal prosecutor who tried to force the prosecution of the Sackley family in that.

And he was kind of a hero in that whole story. And he looked like an idiot, you know, representing Snyder in this. case. I've said this before. The ironic part about this is Mary Joel White represented one of the Sackley families. Sackler. Sackler. Yes. One of the Sackler families in that case. Yeah. Yeah. Richard Sackler. So, yeah, I mean, it's, I mean, look, I wrote in November of 22, I suspect the commanders will get their day in court someday, but not the one they want. And I predicted that, you know, this is exactly what would happen. You know, when the Maryland Attorney General came out with their ruling, that basically said, despite, you know, whatever you want to call the commander's response to it, no admission of guilt or anything like that in the agreement.

But the Maryland Attorney General said, yeah, they ran a scam, they cheated fans, and they've got to pay them back, which is what Jason Friedman testify to, you know? So I wrote in November, I said, this was coming. I mean, with that response, they were set themselves up for a lie of defamation. Yeah, I mean, I know you're hung up on this, but it wasn't like they paid either, you know, either Maryland or D.C., a lot of money. A million dollars between the two. Exactly. By the way, how good was Michael Keaton in Dupesick? he was great in that. And I'm looking at... It was a great series.

And I've got the book and I have not read the book yet. That was a recommendation I made to you that you actually took. And Jake McDormon played John Brownlee. Yeah. John Brownley was the U.S. attorney for the Western District of Virginia back then. Anyway, he did not do a great job. Look, it's an impossible job. pitch on behalf of the Snyders to begin with.

But again, I know I'm beating a dead horse. I just still don't understand why the someone didn't say to Brownlee, who at least had a brain. Dude, these accusations on, on, on, on on on on on on on on on on on on on on on on on on on on on on on on time line. It's impossible that he was responsible for all this because of the majority of allegations being before he got here. Um, but they never. seemed to get that. They didn't get a lot of things in that pitch.

Neil and Rockville mentioned to me, he said, look, most of, if not all, of the allegations because they were pre-Bruce, the statute of limitations is out for the Lisa Banks' clients in terms of suing the team. But for Friedman being defamed, it just happened recently. So this is perhaps their opportunity, and he is a Lisa Banks client, to try to get something in the form of money out of this entire thing, other than what they really accomplished, which was participating, which I would say in conjunction with a lot of fans who stopped going to the games, with a lot of owners who couldn't stand Snyder. but, you know, what really got the ball rolling towards this were, you know, many, many women coming forward bravely to talk about what had happened to them when they worked for the organization. But, you know, a lot of those people don't have any means of cashing in on that, you know, with respect to lawsuits. Anyway. So anything.

Yeah, go ahead. Let me talk a little bit about Thursday. July 20th, the day that, you know, will be celebrated and my own personal conundrum here, okay? If I can do that? Yes, please. Your show. I'm not going to write about it. It's going to happen, and I'm going to be in Key West getting drunk with a bunch of guys who think they look like Gernick Hemingway.

The Hemingway thing? Oh, well, yeah. Okay. Okay. Continue. So, I mean, I have come to the, I tried to figure out way, well, there must be something. Maybe I could write about it, you know, but I just know that that's not going to happen. I'm not going to be able.

I won't write about this until the aftermath, the following week. Why can't you write about it before? Huh? Why can't you write about it before and figure out an angle that doesn't, you know, rely on? I mean, look, like Doc said, shit can happen. Well, then they pull the column, but you just, you write it as if it's done on Thursday or Friday. Look, I've done that before. They could decide to push this back to August 8th.

I know. That was the other date that was given the owners, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen. It looks like it's going to happen on Thursday. So it's the biggest sports story, arguably, in this town, if you take the World Series in the Stanley Cup out of the picture in the past 20 years. And I'm not going to be there for it. I'm going to be in Key West dressed like Ernest, Emily. So, I mean, I'm sorry, but if I were your editor or your boss, I would say you're doing what?

Instead of being here to write about, as you just described to me, the biggest sports story other than maybe the World Series in the Stanley Cup in the last two decades, you're going to go to Key West, get hammered with a bunch of dudes with beards and a Hemingway lookalike contest? No, you're not. Yes, I am. Listen, no, you're not. Yes, I am. Uh-huh. Tommy has earned that right. Remember, just like here, I'm not an employee at the paper.

I'm a contractor. I know. But they choose to contract with you. They could choose to contract with somebody else who might write about this story. And then all of a sudden, whoa, what a column that guy wrote about Snyder's final days. This guy's good. You know what? I don't think that'll happen because whoever wrote that when people read it, they'd say,

What is this garbage? Where's Laverro's column? Yeah, I look, it's not a family wedding. It's not a funeral. It's not some big family, you know, personal event. I mean, it's a boondoggle. And, you know, and by the way, they'll have another one next year. And the year after that, this, and next summer there won't be,

Snyder won't be selling the team. Yeah, we would have a talk about that one. Look, I'm upset that you're not going to be available to do the podcast on Thursday. I'm upset about that. I haven't shared that with you, but I can't believe that you're going to skip the podcast. In my life. It doesn't matter. Where I can dictate my old term.

You know what, though? And those are my terms. You've been dictating your terms for a lot. long time now. That started years ago, long before, long before you earned it. You love Laverro Island, period. You don't like having people in your life telling you what to do. You love being an independent contractor. All right. Well, if I were you at the very least, I'd write a column that, you know, that could run if everything closes so that they have something. Because what, I mean, it's, it's the big, what are they going to run? What is your, what is that newsletter that you work for going to run

on Thursday? Well, Matt Parris will write stuff. Matt Parriss will all right. Yeah, Matt's good. Yeah, Matt's good. Yeah, Matt's good. It's not going to be one of those, you know, classic Laverro columns with some really good lines in there. Let's go over. Let's examine this a little bit further. Okay. I've already written about the joy of this two other times. Well, have them run it again. I bet lot of people didn't read the first two or three. Pick one and have them run it again. You know, are there stages of joy like there stages of grief? I mean, because I don't know what this one will be.

I mean, I think, you know, we've celebrated this twice. I know, you're right. You're right. I said yesterday, because I felt this way for a while now, that it's going to, when it actually closes, it's going to be a little bit anticlimactic because it's been exhausting over the last seven, eight months with all of the stories that have been reported, some of which look terrible now, but like we've said all along, and you've really emphasized, it doesn't mean that when they got reported that they weren't right in the moment.

I kind of agree with you, but as we're approaching Thursday, just the idea that we may wake up on Friday or Saturday morning with a new owner of this football team, it will. feel like a new day. And I think that the first two big announcements, the reporting that it was going to happen, and then we had, you know, whatever it was, two months ago, the press releases by both parties,

the Harris Group and the Snyders, that the deal was completed and a fully executed purchase agreement between the two existed, and we were just now waiting for the owner vote, etc. But, you know, here we've had over the last several weeks

different reports that have popped up. Oh, here's the indemnification concerns again. You know, the post story last week, you know, had quotes in there saying, this is serious. You know, this could get delayed. This could put this, this could complicate this, I think was the word, verb they used. So it is going to be over and it's going to be a new day. And by the way, what we will get, and I think I mentioned this yesterday, I was told that there is a planned press conference on Friday, if everything closes as they expect with Josh Harris being introduced as the new owner. And that'll make it seem more real than the last two times we celebrated. Yeah, it will.

Well, have fun, buddy. I'll be thinking of you. Oh, God. And how long does this, though, is it just a one-night thing? No, no, no. It starts. I fly in tomorrow, and there's an event Wednesday night. What's that event? There's an event Thursday, Friday, and then the final is Saturday.

What? There's a running of the bowl. I mean, is there a swimsuit element to this? No, no swimsuit element to this? Is there an interview piece? Do you have to have a talent? Are you going to play piano? By the way, your talent, of course, would be singing.

Of course. I'm not sure. What do you do for three days or two and a half days? It's an Erick's Hemingway Festival. And I was destined to do this. This is my density, as they said in fact to the future. Density. Well, good luck, I guess.

It would provide, it's going to provide for very good content next week. when you get back in your final two shows before you begin summering in Spain for the month of August. And I hope you win. And if you don't, who cares? It was... Right. Look, I don't expect to win. I have the impression that rookies do not win this thing.

There are people that come back for this year after year. And so I just have the feeling. And, you know, like, there's all kinds of... Like, people on, there's a Facebook page for this thing, and other contestants who have done it before have been posting suggestions, you know, for newbies. And one of them, one of the things I did, you know, when I was in Cuba in 99, covering the Orioles playing the Cuban national team, I met the old man, Gregorio Flentes, from the old man in the sea. Hemingway ship. I know. You told me this story, yes.

Right. And I have a picture of him and me. Right. You know, he was like 101 years old. This has to be used this. And there's a picture of him and me in his house. I mean, that's, yeah. With a painting of Hemingway in the background.

Uh-huh. And, you know, I thought to myself, well, this, you got 30 seconds to make your case. So I thought to myself, this would be great. I'll blow it up, you know, to a reasonable size, and I'll bring it on stage with me when I tell the story. because that's going to be my pitch, that story, you know? But then this other guy, this guy said no props.

Don't bring any props on stage. So I don't know what I'm going to do. Oh, man. You're, look, no matter what happens, just remember, the sun also rises. It will rise, it will rise even if you lose. You'll have a great time regardless. Sounds like fun. Just remember people, you won't have a column on Friday morning from Tom.

All right, I want to tell you a couple of things that Len Shapiro mentioned to me yesterday, and I want to ask you if you had heard these things before. And then I want to talk a little bit about the moment that we knew Snyder was bad news for this franchise and for this city. We'll get to that and a lot more right after these words from a few of our sponsors. This segment of the show brought to you by the Circa Million and the Circa Survivor, contests out in Vegas. Our good friends, Tim Murray and Aaron Oster live out there. Tim does his show from the Circa.

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suggest you at least take a trip into the circus sports book. It is spectacular. So before we get to more on the end of Snyder, Len Shapiro was great yesterday. It had been a while since I had Len on the show. You know Len really well. Lens really, you know, he started as a copy editor for the post in 1969, Tommy. And so he covered as a beat reporter, the Redskins of the 70s. And there were two different things he mentioned that I did not know. The first was that George Allen technically was fired by Edward Bennett Williams following the 1977 season. But did you know that George basically lied to everybody in the organization, took a Saturday off, which was a walkthrough before a game, took a red eye near the end of the 77 season, or took a flight out to L.A. to meet with Carol Rosenblum to essentially create a deal

which would allow him to leave Washington at the end of that season and take the job with the Rams. My impression always was he just got to be too much to handle. A lot of these coaches, the Marty Schottenheimer's, the Tom Coughlin's, eventually they kind of run their course. Edward Bennett Williams had it with him. He fired him. They didn't make the playoffs since 77,

even though they had a very good season, they were nine and five and were streaking towards the end of the season and nearly made the playoffs. I found this back and forth between Brent Musburger and Jimmy the Greek on NFL today talking about how George Allen had done one of the best jobs of any coach in the NFL that particular season. But Shapiro told me that George basically had had it with Edward Bennett Williams because they had promised him as, part of his deal, some ownership, and he wasn't going to get it. And so he was always going to leave regardless. He did technically get fired. But did you know that? Did you know that George wanted out and wanted to go back to L.A.? I didn't know that. Len Shapiro has seen a lot in this town, a lot of sports in this town. One of my favorite sports writers from the Washington Post. You're right. A great guy. I did not know that.

that George Allen basically had engineered his exit because he was pissed off at EBW. I didn't know that. And the actual trip out to L.A., he told everybody that he just had never had a chance to see his son Bruce play football at the University of Richmond. And he was going to take that Saturday to finally watch Bruce play a game. I think Bruce was a punter, right, at Richmond. And so that was what he told everybody, but he actually got onto a flight, went out to L.A., and did the deal with Rosenblum.

Now, I do remember that he never made it through the following preseason, and Rosenblum fired him before the regular season ever started. And Len told me that the reason for that was Alan was not getting along and had pissed off Carol Rosenblum's son. By the way, Carol Rosenblum, Georgia Frontiery was his wife, right? Because she eventually took over the team when he passed. Yes. Okay.

Yeah. He was a showgirl. Carol Rosenblum was a piece of work, buddy. A lot of people suspect that he was murdered. I think I know this story. Tell me this story again, though. Like he drowned, I think, off the coast of Florida, swimming in the ocean. but there's people who look I think it's been investigated and rehashed and nothing has ever come of it

but there are people who have believed along the way that he was killed you know he was a big time better he was a big time gambler didn't Tommy the Rams and the Colts, Urseye and Rosenblum, didn't they swap franchises? Yes, they did. Yeah, Rosenblum was the owner of the Baltimore Colt. Right, and Erseye was the owner of the Rams? Erse had just bought the Rams, and then they immediately swapped.

This was a deal that they had come up with. I'm not quite sure what was in it for Ursae to do that. I don't know all the details. I know Rosenblum wanted to be, wanted the bright lights of L.A. As opposed to the dark smoky smokestacks of Baltimore at the time. So, yeah, they did swap franchises. Interesting. I didn't know the story about the drowning.

that he was a big time gambler. And nobody's ever gotten to the bottom of it. You know, a Natalie Wood situation with Carol Rosenblum, it sounds like. All right. So the other thing Len told me, and this one I had never heard before, he told me that Jack Kent Cook was seriously considering changing the name in the, you know, year or months before he passed. that the Super Bowl in Minneapolis impacted him a little bit.

It started to gain momentum, remember, in terms of those activists that were out there, you know, trying to get the Redskins to change their name, and that Cook seriously considered changing the name before he passed, but he didn't do it. I had never heard that before. You know, it's funny. I never heard that before.

a while back, I asked Larry Lekino, who used to work for Edward Bennett Williams and was a club official with the Redskins at the time. I forget what his title was. Larry actually has a Super Bowl ring in addition to a World Series ring and a Final Four. I don't know if they had rings back then for Final Four appearances. But I asked him if EBW, which I thought would have been a natural given EBW's liberal leanings if they had ever considered change in the name. And Larry said, not that he knew of, they had never done it. It's interesting that Cook then, according to Len, considered it.

You know, because, I mean, Cook had this reputation. He didn't particularly care what anyone thought was not necessarily. subject to public pressure. So I'm wondering why he would have felt the need to change the name other than just the opposition that was voiced. Well, Len mentioned, you know, that he saw dollar signs attached to that. But like I've discussed with you many times, and I think we've seen this already with the commanders, you know, the idea that whatever new revenue would somehow supersede the valuation, you know, loss was always misguided by the people that, you know, really pushed for the name change, you know.

Other than, you know, dictionary defined, you know, drop the mic, it was, well, why wouldn't they do it? Because it'll be a financial boon to the business because of all of the new, you know, jerseys and everything else that'll be sold. but that was never people that understand that you know a longstanding brand and one that has a loyal attachment an emotional attachment it's you know it's pennies to you know hundreds of thousands of dollars in difference but it's actually million billions and millions versus hundreds of thousands but but maybe cook you know somebody was trying to talk him into the fact that it would be a

huge win business-wise. I think he would have figured out that you take that name away. Now, keep in mind, this is actually, and I'm just thinking about this, because I know we've talked about this over the years, coming off three Super Bowls and trying to pull something like that off is different than 20 years of mediocre to subpar results, bad results, really, and then trying to pull it. Because really the only thing that kept people attached to this franchise was kind of that emotional brand attachment to it as they were losing. I think there would have been a better chance for the business not to be impacted

to do it from a position of strength, which would have been winning. Now, what Lenn's suggesting is that it was close to the end of his life, which was, when did he pass? I think he passed in 96. 97. 97, he passed in 97. I think so. So, you know, they had lost for, you know, five years in a row anyway, but still the memories of, you know, three Super Bowls and four trips in, you know, a short period of time under Gibbs still existed.

But I thought that that was, that really surprised me. The way you said it about Edward Bennett Williams with more of a progressive left leaning, that, that, that, wouldn't have surprised me, but Cook really surprised me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So, we're at the end of the Snyder era here.

On radio yesterday, I asked the question, you know, when was it that you knew for sure that Snyder was going to be trouble for the franchise? And I'll just share with you kind of my thoughts on this and then I want yours. I've talked for years about the biggest football

mistake that Dan ever made. And to me, I don't even know if there's a close second, but it was firing Marty Schottenheimer after one season. Because I think what happened was, is, you know, he hires Spurrier. Eventually Gibbs comes back. That's probably the single best thing he ever did was hiring Gibbs for a second go-around. But even when he fired Marty, it's not like I knew the organization was doomed. Like, I was pissed off because I just couldn't believe that a guy that had won eight out of the final 11 games with Tony Banks at quarterback and a guy that, you know, was a proven winner, you know, at that point already in Cleveland and in Kansas City. And I'm convinced that Marty would have won lots of games here. They would have won divisions. They would have been in the playoffs a lot

during his time here. I don't know what they would have done in the playoffs. We've talked about it many times. Marty had some bad luck in the postseason for sure and probably choked up a little bit in the off season as well. He's 5 and 13 as a playoff coach. That's why he's not in the Hall of Fame, although I think he deserves to be in the Hall of Fame.

Don Coriel never got to a Super Bowl. He's in the Hall of Fame. Marty's 7th on the all-time wins list, and he's like ninth on the all-time win percentage. and he did it with multiple teams. Marty is on the list of... I know. He's been on that list. Senior that was just released by the Hall of Fame as eligible and up for consideration.

Marty and Mike both should be in, that's my opinion. But anyway, that's the biggest mistake. But I wasn't, like, I can't go back like some of you people can and say, oh, once they went after Dion Sanders and Bruce Smith and Jeff George, I knew we were doomed. I knew, no, you didn't. I don't believe that, really. Because once Gibbs came back, everybody was on board with that.

Everybody thought that was going to work. For me, Tommy, the first time as a lifelong, passionate fan, I remember being in the stadium in October of 2009. They were playing the Chiefs at FedEx Field. And this was the final year of Zorn, and you and I spent some time with Jim Zorn. And we knew how completely discombobulated that whole thing was with him, with your experience, meeting him in the parking lot when he was talking to his wife saying, no, honey, the head coaching job, to him complying in 2009, all of those things.

It was a disaster. But sitting in that stadium when the score, it was a one score game, it was 9 to 6 in the second half. And the stadium emptied at halftime. Beautiful day. They were two and three. It's October. The season's far from over. And I remember coming in the next day with you, I'm sure, and saying, it's gone from anger to now apathy.

And that's a major problem. And it's all because of this owner and his friend and Vinny Serato, General Manager. And if he doesn't come to the realization that he's not a football person and hire a football person and get out of the way, this thing is doomed. And I don't think he will. And I just remember that season that followed, man, you and I had Zorn on early and I asked him if he was, I think it was week two if the game was a must win and he got so pissed. Yeah. And you know, it ended with Shirm Lewis, the bingo caller.

That was true rock bottom number one where I think a lot of longtime fans and I would put myself into that group realized this is a disaster. he's the problem more than anybody else, and he's probably not going to change. You know, I mean, I remember that. I remember that there's so many seminal moments, so many moments that were red flags. The Marty firing, I mean, there have been so many, I mean, countless screw-ups and ridiculous moves,

but the Marty firing, since it happened early in his ownership tenure, you know, that was an opportunity to change the direction of the franchise for years to come. No doubt. And for him to embrace the idea of stepping away and letting the football person be in charge of the football team. That was the opportunity, that was the window right there. but he wasn't having any fun. He fired. Look, I mean, he fired Norv Turner,

and I didn't think Norve was such a great coach. We had just won the NFC East and a playoff game and had them on a 7-and-6 record when he got fired, I think. So, you know, and I heard the stories about how he harassed Norv up until the time that he was fired. and that's when I thought that this guy's going to be a problem. I mean, the stories about him, harassing Norv, then firing him, and trying to hire Pepper Rogers as the head coach at the time.

That's when I knew that this guy was trouble. But he had the opportunity to rebound from that when he hired Marty. you know, the gift thing is an outlier almost. Nobody thought that was a bad idea, okay? But that was his last guest. I don't know. That was Snyder's last guest. See, that's where I think there's just more of an up and down component to his ownership.

Look, the last, to me, you know, the end of 2013 when Mike gets fired and the RG3 thing falls apart, I think we knew then for sure. There's no resurrecting this franchise as long as Dan is here. But I think there was an up and down, more of an up and down component. Len told me yesterday, he said, one of the very first Q&A press conference situations with Snyder, Carl Swanson walked in and said, Dan would like to be referred to as Mr. Snyder.

And he said, that's when I knew. And Len said, I never wanted. once called them Mr. Snyder. Not once, nor would I have. And I know that, you know, we've been talking about that for years. I mean, that really gets into the whole, you know, the Napoleonic complex situation and is just utterly ridiculous over the years. And, you know, and a lot of the stories, look, the vanilla ice cream with Mike Nolan and, you know, a lot of this stuff. The Jeff George, the scouting Patrick Ramsey and forcing, you know, Spurrier to pick him, the telling Spurrier that he'd have a GM in Bethard, and really he had no interest in hiring

Beatherd because he wanted to be the general manager of the team. All of that stuff was going on, and a lot of that stuff we knew about, but I don't feel, I can only speak for myself. I'm not going to go back and say, oh, I knew we were doomed for good as long as he owned the team. Because when he hired Bruce Allen and Mike Shanahan and finally fired Vinny, you know, Cooley's always called it. That was his attempt to become a good owner. But of course, he couldn't help himself getting into the RG3 situation, drafting Dwayne Haskins.

And we had all of these things. All the while, by the way, you've got a toxic workplace with some of the dumbest and most arrogant people in a company that any of us had ever dealt with. But I don't think 2009 was the first time I really thought this thing just isn't going to work as long as he owns it. But I say that and then I got excited about Mike. Hell, I got excited about Kirk. But I also knew at that point, as long as Dan owns the team, it's not going to happen. Somebody said to me yesterday, it was my son. My son said to me, Dad, what if Sam Hal ends up being really great? And all of a sudden, the team's really good.

Will Snyder get any credit for that? I'm like, no. Of course not. why would he get credit for it? And my son said, well, he hired Ron Rivera. And they selected the quarterback of the future in the fifth round. And then I just said, and this is true, and I think you and I've talked about this, if he were owning the team, Sam Hal wouldn't thrive. He'd get, he'd fuck up the relationship. Once it became obvious that Sam Hal had some talent and might be marketable,

Dan would have been in the middle of that relationship between Sam Hal and his coach and Eric B. Enemy. And he would have messed it up somehow. No, you're absolutely right. You know, it's a hard thing to nail down because it's like, you know, it's like where do you shoot first? There's so many targets when it comes to nailing when, you know, you knew the franchise was doomed. I really did think that the firing of North and then the attempt to hire Pepper Rogers showed me that this guy was going to be a big, big problem.

When I agree with you, I have told people I have not written about or spoken about this franchise as a serious, legitimate football organization since the Shanahan era ended. Right. No, that's That 2013 was rock bottom number two. To me, like their, rock bottom one was the end of Zorn. Rock bottom two was the end of,

was 2013. Rock bottom three was, you know, the whole Kirk fiasco. And then rock bottom four was all of the allegations, all of the reporting and everything that we've, you know, seen going through the last three years that's led us to this glorious day. It's coming up that many of us will be on air for hours working our ass off to cover. But, you know, every time Pepper Rogers' name comes up, you know who he coached in college, John Riggins?

Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, he was the head coach at Kansas. I forgot he was the coach. When Rigo was there. I kind of remember him as the head coach of Georgia Tech. That's kind of where I remember. but Pepper Rogers coached Rigo. And Rigo's, I think, has always told me he's got fond memories of playing for Pepper Rogers.

Yeah, no, the list is so long. And, God, I mean, there were so many people that a lot of people got into a lot of this stuff early on with him charging for parking for training camp. And, you know, the suing of the city paper, the suing of the 87-year-old season ticket, you know, woman. And all of the things that really proved that he was not a good person. You know, the replacing a Frank Herzog with Larry. There were just a lot of things that were going on during that timeline. But I would be lying if I told you that during all of that, I was thinking, look, I know I was thinking this guy is definitely, you know, he's not good right now.

He's learning on the job. But when he hired Gibbs, that was, and those four seasons with Gibbs, it really did feel. Now, 2006, I talked about this a little bit on the air yesterday on radio. The 2006 off season, which was a Vinny Dan extravaganza, you know, Adam Archiletta, letting Ryan Clark go, Randall L, Brandon Lloyd, you know, trading for T.J. Duckett near the end of the this summer. I mean, Gibbs remember was infatuated with free agency because he hadn't lived through that. And I think Joe let Dan and Vinny do what they wanted to do to a certain degree. Look, they got absolutely one side fleeced in the champ Bailey for Clinton Porteasteele. Clinton's one

of the best players to ever play for the organization. I'll never, you know, not say that. And by the way, one of the great ballers on game day that we've ever had during the Snyder era. Absolutely. But you don't trade a shutdown corner for a running back straight up, let alone give a second round pick on top of it to Denver. I mean, they were really, agents lined up to get their clients overpaid, and teams lined up for a decade to do trades with them, because they were the dumbest team by miles in the league.

And that's the one regret I have about the Gibbs era is that Gibbs didn't, because if Gibbs had stepped in and told Dan, no, we're not doing some of this stuff. But remember, Tommy, Gibbs was not a great GM when he was super involved with Charlie after Bobby left. Remember, they drafted Desmond Howard. He's the guy who wanted Desmond Howard. Yeah. And, you know, and he fell in love with Jason Campbell, too. Gibbs was the one that went down to Auburn when they drafted Carlos Rogers, and when they worked out Rogers, he fell in love with Campbell. So Gibbs was, you know, Gibbs, believe it or not, had a few weaknesses.

And one of them, football-wise, was he really wasn't a super keen evaluator of talent. What he did know more than anything else was the importance of team chemistry. You know, the importance of the kind of character. you had to have. And that was always missing from Snyder and Vinny's evaluations of almost anybody. I mean, see Albert Hainsworth, for starters. It's a long list. And, yeah, but it's over.

It is finally over. Anything else on the end of the Snyder era? I mean, I wish I could look forward to reading whatever you were going to write at the end of the week. but I guess we'll have to wait until you get back from the Hemingway lookalike contest in Key West. Yeah, there you go. Don't say it so flippantly. Well, I am going to say it flippantly. You should be working.

All right. Let's get to a few other things and finish up right after these words from a few of our sponsors. All right, Tommy, tell us about Shelley's. Well, you know, I was in Wildwood Crest this weekend. And last time I was in Shelly's, back room, and I've mentioned this before, they have an excellent selection of cigars. And knowing that I would soon be heading to Key West for the Hemingway Lookalike contest, I bought some Arturo Fuente, they have a Hemingway line of cigars.

And I bought them at Shelley's to bring with me to the beach and also to bring with me to Key West. They have like cigar aficionado, which is like the Bible for the cigar industry, puts out a list of the top 25 cigars every year. Shelly's has most, if not all of them, every single year. They have a great selection of cigars to choose from. I got the Hemingway Classic Perfecto, the Hemingway signature, and the Hemingway Classic. Wow. I got several of each.

while I was at Shelly's. What did they cost? What did they cost? Well, I mean, they cost anywhere between $10 and $20, depending on which one you get. Okay. You know, not too outrageous. Not too bad.

And I wanted, you know, I wanted to get in the mood for this Hemingway contest. I wanted to, you know, prepare myself for it. So I figured why not smoke some of the Hemingway cigar lines? that Arturo Fonte had. And so I, you know, it's funny, in Wildwood, you can't smoke anywhere around the hotel. Okay. So they have benches at the end of the street right by the beach. So I always would sit on a bench to have a smoke.

Yeah. And all the benches have, they have these plaques on them because they're all dedicated to somebody. You know, a family member Donates money To have a bench dedicated to them And all week I sat on a bench That was dedicated to the late great Benji Haas I have no idea who he is

But his family loved him enough To name a bench after him So I feel obligated to at least mention his name Since I smoked on his bench all weekend I'm glad you did Smoking cigars from Shelley's back room Shelly's at 1331 F Street Northwest in the district. I have a question for you, and it's something you said when you were talking about not working

during one of the most important weeks in D.C. sports history. What are the biggest sports stories that weren't games, that weren't the results of games? I just made a quick list, and I'm sure I'm missing some, because this is on the list. Snyder leaving. Snyder selling the team is probably top five, but let me just give you a couple that I just came up with. The hiring of Lombardi was a massive deal, right? Huge. Yeah. Okay? Bobby Mitchell integrating the Redskins, huge. Michael Jordan, joining the Wizards as a part owner and team president slash GM was

massive. Gibbs coming back the second go-round would be on the list. I've written a couple of other things down that I don't think would make the list, but the drafting of RG3 was a super exciting moment. He was the Heisman trophy winner. He was a quarterback. He was a star. What am I missing from the list of the biggest sports stories in DC sports history that are not game-related? Oh, the Nats coming back to D.C. Baseball coming back. The return of baseball to Washington. Yep.

Yes. A. Poland building an arena in downtown D.C. Okay. Yep. And the Wizards and the Caps moving downtown. Changed the city. It did. It really did.

I mean, I... So what's number one? What else to have we forgotten? Give me some of the Well, to me, it's baseball. To me, number one is baseball coming back to D.C. I mean, you know, to me, that will always be number one. I mean, the city had tried so many times to get a team.

You know, baseball had not let a team move since they let the senators move to Texas in 1970, after the 71 season. It just seemed like, and with the Orioles, up the road, it just seemed like it never would happen. When it finally did, to me, that, I mean, that's the biggest story, not having to do with an athletic event in sports in the past 50 years. That's big.

I mean, that's really big. Imagine this city still without baseball. I mean, 34 years, but imagine that it would be another, you know, 18 on the 34. imagine 52 years without baseball in a top six market, top seven market in the country. That's insane to consider. Len bias is death. Lenn bias is death. Lent bias is death. That was an unbelievably national impact story that happened locally here, absolutely. What else are we missing? Non-game related, not athletic events related.

Because number one is probably Riggins' run to beat the Dolphins in Super Bowl 17. That's the moment. But there's so many of the game moments in championship moments, not a lot of them. Well, the Braden Holpey save in the Stanley Cup final. The Howie Kendrick home run. Sure. the Strasbourg Game 6 pitching performance. There's a lot of them.

Yeah. But in terms of non-game stuff, I think we got a lot of them, right? You know, I'm just thinking about this. Maryland's probation, that's not a, you know, that was Maryland essentially getting the death penalty for, you know, Bob Wade giving Rudy Archer a ride to class was one of the worst. justices we've ever seen in terms of the penalizing of college programs, but whatever. That wouldn't be on the short list here. I think you may have talked to me into the return of baseball, but I don't know. Is that bigger than Snyder leaving the most important team in town?

And giving the team, essentially the city getting its team back after a quarter of a century? Because you didn't have baseball for 34 years, but for all intents and purposes, you really didn't football for 24. Seriously. Yeah. You know, that's a tough one. I'm going to say to return baseball. Yeah. Okay. What else did we have on our list here of things to talk about? You wanted to talk about Otani. Well, actually, before the show started, you asked me if I, did you have Mike Rizzo on the show? I did, Tommy. Thanks for listening. Really appreciate it. And remember, remember the next time you say, did you read my column? I didn't listen. I didn't. I don't even listen to the podcast.

I did a podcast for two years. I never listened. Oh, cigars and curveball. Okay? I didn't listen to one episode. Well, I mean, if I'm being truthful, I will go back and listen to this podcast periodically, but I don't listen to it every day. I mean, I'm not going to sit here and do it and then go back and listen to, you know, another hour of it. I listen to it a lot when I'm editing it and at the end. But I do periodically just for quality assurance, because I am also the quality assurance person here at the Kevin Sheehan Show podcast.

All right. What did you want to say about, what did you want to say about Otani? I don't like to do. What are we going to do? Is he, are they going to trade them or not? Well, first of all, what I like to do, and I do this with my writing, too, I don't like to plow the same ground twice. So that's generally my philosophy. Unless it's really big ground to plow. Otani is an amazing dilemma because the angels are not that much out of the playoff picture. You know? And that's what really complicates it.

If they were like 10 games under 500 or something like that, then to me, and you know you're not going to sign a Tony, if they know that, then you've got to trade them. Well, they are five and a half out now in the wild card. They're a game below 500. I know that. At this point of the season, five and a half out is nothing to me. Okay. I would not trade that guy five and a half.

games added a wild card. I just wouldn't do it. If I cared about my fans, and I don't know if Mike Trout, if or when Mike Trout's coming back from his injury, but I wouldn't trade him with the wild card still up in the air.

You know, this is what happened to the Orioles. And this is what, you know, one of the problems with Peter Angelo's. Back in 96, which was only the second year of the wild card, the Orioles were, I don't know, maybe nine games out of first place in 96, in the middle of the season, right around the trade deadline. But they were only like four or five games out of the wild card. And Pat Gillick, who's the greatest baseball GM in history, wanted to trade Bobby Bonilla, wanted to trade David Wells for some prospects. because that's what he did back then. If your team was not going to, you know, win the division,

you trade these players and you get some prospects. But the wild card changed everything because they were within striking distance. So Angelo said, no, you're not going to trade those guys. And he turned out one or a few times he turned out to be right. They wound up winning the wild card the last weekend of the season. I went to some of those games against the Indians. I remember that series against the Indians.

I went to a couple of those games against the Indians at Camden Yards. So I think if you're the Angels older... Is that the Jeffrey Meyer postseason against the Yankees? Is that the Jeffrey Meyer or the Jeffrey Mayer postseason against the Yankees? Yes, it is, right? Yes, it is. Yeah. Yeah. I think you've got to consider that. I know you may look foolish.

Letting the most valuable commodity we've seen in baseball in decades walk away for nothing. But you've got a shot at a wild card. You got to take that shot. I think it's, first of all, I just, I can't imagine, not that this is going to be, it's all about the kids' comment, I just can't imagine being a kid in L.A. And being an Angels fan, living in Orange County, and trying to make sense out of, they're doing what? They're trading the greatest two-way player.

one of the greatest players in talents we've ever seen. It doesn't make any sense. But I do think, Tommy, the expansion of the postseason, you know, now three wild cards, six total teams in each league. And we saw last year, the Phillies as a wild card team made, you know, a run to the World Series. You know, these are the baseball playoffs, like we've said about the hockey playoffs, there's a certain randomness to it. I mean, you get a couple of really good pitching performances.

I mean, no matter how good. great Atlanta is right now, and they are, I mean, having just a ridiculous season right now. You know, in a Best of Seven, it's very possible that somebody could pitch three, you know, two pitchers could pitch four great games for the opponent, and they could get knocked out. We see that this happen all the time. Now, there are a lot of teams in that American League race. Look at the American League East alone. The Yankees now, as after last night, they've lost a couple in a row. They are now in last summer. They are now in last place. Five games above 500. It's amazing.

This is going to go down is probably the greatest division aggregate win total in baseball history. But anyway, they're sitting there with one, two, three teams in front of them before they get to the Astros who right now are holding down the third wild card behind the Orioles and the Jays. I don't know what to say. I guess if I were an Angels fan, I'd say, I understand what we can get back for him and it might ultimately set this franchise up. And we didn't win anything with Trout before he got here. I don't know. I'd like to see it play out with him the rest of the year, I think.

But I think most people would tell you, if you're going to lose him, you've got to get as much as you can get for him right now. Now, there's always the Godfather, Crito, of making somebody an offer they can't refuse. Yeah. I mean, if you're the Phillies, let's say, or the Astros or another team like that, Otani could be the difference maker between a World Series for a World Series. So if you're a team that's in competition and contending right now, you're trying to put together a package that the angels can't turn down.

That's the other side of it. You give up more than you ever would give up for a rental player because he's a rental. You only have him for this year. But if you win the World Series, it will always be worth it. Where does he want to play? Just to be honest, I have not followed the Otani sweepstakes here approaching the trade deadline. where does he want to play next year if he were to become an unrestricted free agent, which he will become, even if he is traded?

Where does he want to play? You know, I don't know. I mean, there's the usual suspects of the Dodgers, the Yankees, the Mets. You know, there's only certain teams that can pay a player of this magnitude. So those are three that come to mind. Can the angels afford them or not? That's a good question. I don't know if they can or not next year. It's $500 million, right? We're looking at a half a billion dollar player.

I think so. Okay. Yeah. I tell you where he's not going to play in Washington. No. Although they beat the Cubs last night. I mean, they actually played really well recently. Now they're only 18 games under 500. I know, but they've been a competitive, feisty bunch for a team that doesn't really have enough right now, or what they have is just, you know, too young right now. Rizzo talked about that with me last week. It was really a good conversation. We both like Mike a lot. He is clearly the best general manager in this town for a long time,

and I hope they figure this thing out with him with the contract coming to end. him and Davey both because I think Davy gets a lot of the credit for the way this team has played competitively. I mean, you don't see any signs of quit or frustration or anything on the field from this team. All right. Will you be posting on social media from Key West? How can we follow the effort to become Ernest Hemingway's number one look-alike? Well, I will be posting items about myself, of course. I may not be posting anything related to the huge news that's happening back in Washington, D.C.,

because I'll be consumed with myself. Because there'll be a vote and we'll be celebrating. By the way, Thursday down at the bullpen right next to Nats Park, the radio station is hosting a burgundy and sold party. Everybody knows the bullpen right next to Nats Park, half street down downtown and southeast. I'll be there. Everybody from the radio station will be there. The guys from the other station will be there. live music, drinks, food trucks, etc.

Please come down. There's so many of you that I haven't seen in a long time, or I haven't met. And 430, doors open, bullpen Thursday for the biggest day in D.C. sports history, certainly in a long time where, you know, anybody who's anybody in town will either be on the air talking about it or writing about it for sure. Except me. All right. Have a good time. and we will reconvene next week.

Okay, boss. All right. Tomorrow, Andy Poland's going to jump on with me on what should be the last day, maybe the last day that Dan Snyder owns the football team. Thursday will be the last day. Maybe Friday, depending on when they close. But Andy will be on with me and maybe another guest as well.

Have a good day. So I'm curious, is anyone hired Juliani, Howard Shapiro, and Mary Jo, Are they getting a special audience with the DMJ to pick their case? Or is that just billionaires with their names on museums? That's cute, John.