The Kevin Sheehan Show - Commanders' Comp + Mike Wilbon

Episode Date: October 30, 2024

Kevin opened the show answering an email that compared this year's Washington team to an all-time Super Bowl champion. Kevin talked Daniels and the Skins' and Giants' injury reports in the open as well. Michael Wilbon joined Kevin to talk about the incredible Chicago-Washington ending and a lot more including, Caleb Williams, the NFC landscape, the Wizards, and Cooper Flagg.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it, but you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Sheehan Show. He is Kevin. Mike Wilbon is going to be on the show with me today. Perfect timing to have Wilbon back on the show after his bears were in town on Sunday and left heartbroken, as I'm sure he was. We'll talk a lot about the game.

We'll talk about Caleb Williams, Jaden Daniels, and a lot more with Wilbon starting in the next segment. show's presenting sponsor, as always is Windonation. Call them at 86690 Nation or head to Windonation.com if you need new windows. I start the show today with this. In Command writes to me, Kevin, I think there's a comp team for our team this year, the 99 St. Louis Rams. They were the longest preseason odd shot to win it all, and they did, and they did it by taking the league by storm with a first-time quarterback, Kurt Warner, leading the best offense in the NFL. Thank you in command.

By the way, you can tweet me at Kevin Sheen, D.C. Follow me on Twitter at Kevin Sheen, D.C. So I was thinking about the 99 Rams, about a week or two ago, and whether or not there was a reasonable comparison to the 99 Rams. I mean, there isn't, and I'll get to that here momentarily. But I was trying to think of teams that literally came out of nowhere and were elite offensive football teams with a quarterback that, you know, nobody expected this from. Now, Kurt Warner and Jaden Daniels are two different situations for a lot of reasons, but the most obvious is Jaden Daniels won the Heisman Trophy and was the number two pick in the draft. but the way that the Rams took the league by storm in 99, you know, Washington has shocked the hell out of everybody offensively.

And obviously, Jaden Daniels is having a borderline MVP season. And we're only eight games into it, and there are nine left. We'll see where it goes. But I was thinking about this, and I ended up doing some quick, you know, research on the 99 Rams. And so I had some of this data that I'm going to share with you already pulled. I do want to make one thing clear. When In Command writes that the Rams were the longest preseason odd shot to win it all in 99, actually the Rams were the longest preseason odd shot to ever win a Super Bowl. They were 150 to 1 in 1999 to win the Super Bowl. No team,

no Super Bowl winner has ever been a longer preseason odds choice. But that specific year in 99, they were 150 to 1. The Browns, the Eagles, and the Bears were all 200 to 1, and the Bengals were 300 to 1. So there were four teams that year that were longer shots to win the Super Bowl. But in terms of the longest shot ever preseason odds-wise to win it all, the 99 Rams are that team. I think the 2001 Patriots were 60 to 1 before this season began,

and they're the second longest shot to ever win the Lombardi Trophy. But anyway, yeah, Kurt Warner led the Rams out of nowhere to win a Super Bowl, and they did it with incredible offense. They actually did it with a lot more than that, and that's where some of the differences lie, and I'll get to that here in a minute. But they were number one in virtually every offensive category. They led the league in points.

They led the league in yards. They led the league in margin of victory. They won by nearly 18 points per game. As a comparison, Washington this year through eight games, they are third offensively in points, third offensively in yards. They are also third right now in DVOA offense. Detroit's one, Baltimore is two, Washington is three.

Their current margin of victory is nearly nine points per game. But there are significant difference. And I kind of, you know, went through this a few weeks ago and I'm like, okay, I'm getting carried away here. And it wasn't about really the team comparison. It was more the offense comparison. So here are the big differences. Number one, Kurt Warner was in his first year of starting in the NFL, but he was 28 years old. Warner had been on the Rams roster the year before after playing in the Arena League.

that story and in NFL Europe. Remember that thing? In 98, the year before, he was on the Rams roster. He was the third string quarterback behind Tony Banks and Steve Bono. He played in a game in 1998. He was like four for 11 for 35 yards, but that was it. In 99, he wasn't supposed to be the starting quarterback. Trent Green was supposed to be the starting quarterback, but he got hurt in the preseason. But Warner was older, you know, and had been around professional, you know, locker rooms, professional sports, even if it was the Arena League in NFL Europe. And he had been on the Rams roster the year before.

So that's one difference, you know, but, you know, the season Kurt Warner had and it being his first season as a starter in the season that Jaden's having, you know, in his first season being a starter. We'll see if they end up being comparable seasons. They're not going to be comparable seasons in terms of passing yards. Kurt Warner in 1999, you know, ended up throwing for 4,353 yards and 41 touchdowns, you know, 13 interceptions. Different type of quarterback, obviously. There's not going to be any rushing yards there. But he had a massive first year. And by the way, those 41 touchdowns ended up being a career high. So that's one big difference, is just the age.

The second difference is the Rams had a much better supporting cast. Both sides of the ball. Marshall Falk had already been to three Pro Bowls. Now, he had done it with the Colts, but he had already been a three-time Pro Bowler at that point. Isaac Bruce had been to a Pro Bowl. Tori Holt was the number six pick in that. draft that year. Kevin Carter had 17 sacks in 1999. It was a pro bowler and had been a pro bowler

before, as had DeMarco Farr. And they also had, they didn't know at that point, but they had a young London Fletcher on that team. They had players, you know, around the quarterback. They really did. And the third biggest difference, Warner was older, a better supporting cast player wise. But the biggest difference is the 99 Rams, their defense was really good. They had the number one rush defense in the league. They were the fourth best in points allowed. They were the sixth best defense overall in yards allowed. I hate that stat, but these were the stats available back then. But they were the number one rush defense in the league. And they also led the league in sacks. They were sixth in takeaways. And get this. I

I didn't remember this. The 99 Rams defense scored eight touchdowns. Eight. You know, you could probably chalk up some of the defensive success to the fact that their offense was so great, and they built leads and teams were, you know, trying to throw and trying to throw as a one-dimensional team. But the Rams defense in 99 was outstanding. You know, Kevin Carter, 17 sacks.

Nobody on this team is getting anywhere near. that number. Also, don't forget, the NFC championship game that year, the Rams and the Buccaneers. The Buccaneers had just beaten the Redskins in the divisional round playoff game, 14 to 13. That's the game I've referenced many times. Brian Mitchell had a 100-yard kickoff return. The skins were up 13 to nothing. They blew the lead. They had a chance to win it on a field goal, but the snap from Dan Kirk, Dan Turk, back to his brother, Matt Turk, you know, basically rolled back.

They never got the kickoff and they lost the game 14-13. But in the NFC title game that the Buccaneers went on to play in St. Louis against the greatest show on turf, the final score of the game was 11 to 6. The Rams held Tampa to 203 total yards, turned them over twice, had five sacks, and got a safety in the game. So it was their defense that actually won the NFC title game.

They only scored 11 points on that Buccaneer defense. Washington scored 13. Actually, special teams wise, you had the Mitchell touchdown. The 99 Rams team was much more of an overall great team. You know, they weren't just a great offensive team, even though I think the greatest show on turf in that 99-9. team in particular gets remembered that way as a great offensive team. The similarity between the two quarterbacks taking the league by storm is a fair comparison

at this point, but Warner did go on to win the MVP. Marshall Falk actually was the runner-up, his teammate, uh, in the MVP voting in 99. Will Jaden Daniels win an MVP? I don't know. Probably not. But he's got a shot. He's currently fifth, odds-wise, at my bookie behind Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson, Mahomes, and Jared Gough. So top five right now, he's in the hunt. Alan, by the way, has taken a slight odds lead over Jackson. But for me, I'd bet Lamar. I just think he is having a career year and is going to win his third MVP.

But Josh Allen is 14 touchdowns one pick. Jackson's 17 touchdowns, two picks. I actually got this from Ed on Twitter. Ed wrote, you seem to have backed off on Jaden for MVP. Lamar Jackson has won it twice. Take him off the Ravens. They're still a winning team. Take Jaden off our team.

We're focused on drafting a quarterback in April. That's true. That is true. I mean, the Ravens still made the playoffs a few years ago without Lamar Jackson down the stretch. It was Tyler Huntley and they nearly pulled off a win. in Cincinnati in the postseason. If Jaden wasn't on this team, what would they be? Three and five?

You know, it's a better culture. It's a better vibe. It's a better coaching staff. It's a better supporting cast. But if they just had a quarterback, you know, any quarterback from the last few years, what would they actually be? I mean, he, three and five is probably a good number. So they're six and two.

He's worth three games already. And we've only played eight. I think Jaden's got a shot to win the MVP. I do. There are still nine games left, and, you know, nobody, no quarterback's done more for a franchise this year and for a team than Jaden Daniels. By the way, if you took Josh Allen off Buffalo, they would suck too. Jaden, by the way, was ranked pretty high on a few quarterback power rankings lists that were out yesterday and today. A few of the lists are really about just how the quarterbacks are playing right now.

CBS Sports had Jackson 1, Allen 2, Gough 3, Daniels 4, and Joe Burrow 5. But I mean, come on, that's about how they're playing right now. No Patrick Mahomes. Like if you were to do a legitimate, like right now, the best five quarterbacks in the NFL are. I'm not talking about who you want for the future. I'm talking about right now for this season, you get your choice of quarterbacks. To me, it's Mahomes 1, Jackson 2, Allen 3, and then I think it's Jaden Daniels. Seriously, I think it's Jaden Daniels.

I think right now he's the fourth best quarterback in the league. I'd have Burrow 5. And I'd have a guy like C.J. Stroud, Jared Goff, probably, you know, outside of that. but it's not a great quarterback league right now. We've seen some erosion on great quarterbacks in the last four, five, six years, Brady Rivers. You know, the list goes on Rathlisberger. So try to put together just a top ten list. I mean, it's really hard to get to quarterbacks that, you know, you'd end up having in the top ten,

but you wouldn't really think of them in past years as a top ten quarterback. I mean, it's possible this time next year. Herbert would be in that top five or, you know, a guy like Jalen Hertz might be back there or Trevor Lawrence might take a big step forward. I mean, there are people, there are guys out there. Prescott's not in the Daniels category. I mean, right now, it's not insane to say that Jaden Daniels is a top five quarterback in the NFL. All right.

Today was Wednesday practice day number one in preparation for the Giants on Sunday on the road. That practice produced an injury report. Cornelius Lucas did not practice with the ankle, but Brandon Coleman was limited. That'll be a big thing to watch heading into the Giant game. What will they have available to them at left tackle? Trent Scott obviously would be the answer if neither one of those two could go. Frankie Louvo was on the injury report. He did not practice with a shin injury, and Jaden Daniels limited with the rib. He said that, you know, it's a pain tolerance thing. He obviously tolerated the pain very well on Sunday. The Giants meantime, Tyrone Tracy got concussed at the end of the Monday night game after he had already rushed for 145 yards against the Steelers. The combination of Tracy and Singletary would be my biggest concern on Sunday. And, you know, Washington's been run on.

They got run on on Sunday, you know, by the Bears. They have right now the 24th ranked rush defense per DVOA. It's 29th in average yards per carry against. They're giving up 5.1 yards per carry. Washington's rush defense is a vulnerability right now. Will it get better, you know, with the emergence of Johnny Newton? I mean, his pass rush certainly is going to be, I think, a plus. And there were plays he made Sunday in stopping the run as well.

By the way, he was credited post-haste with a sack on Caleb Williams, which they first just marked up as a regular TFL, but it was an intended pass play. And Quinn pushed the league to credit Newton for sack. And they did today. and the guy that told everybody about it today was Jaden Daniels during his presser. Because Quinn had gone before practice to say that they had submitted it to the league, and then Jaden Daniels spoke after practice and said that, you know, he said, good job by Johnny Newton getting credited for that sack.

But the Giants could be without Tyrone Tracy. That would be a big deal. Singletary had a good day against us in week two, but remember he also had that fumble. was a critical fumble in that week two game. But the Giants in that game, Singletary rushed for nearly six yards of carry. You know, he went 16 for 95. Daniel Jones went five for 32.

Tyrone Tracy only had one carry in that game. He kind of emerged a few games later for the Giants. He had a big night, man, Monday night against the Steelers. He looked good. That to me right now, Sunday, that's the key. I mean, it's kind of the key against the bears, too. Washington's just got to become a better run-stopping team. They don't have to be lights out like the Ravens were last year against the run

or any of the great defenses. The chiefs are against the rush right now. But you just got to improve week by week. And hopefully they can get there. But the Giants can run the football. And they did it against a really good defense on Monday night. All right. What else before we get to?

Will Bunn. Not much. The World Series was exciting last night. I'm glad the Yankees won. And how about the Caps and Ovechkin? Two goals for Alex Ovechkin, 38 now away from Gretzky. He's actually on pace now to set the record this year to pass Gretzky this season. And the Caps are on fire, six and two. I had Joe Beninotti on the radio show today. Joe's always a great guest. If you want to listen to that and you're up for some Caps discussion, you can go to the Team 980.com or download the Odyssey app. Joe was on with us at 11 a.m. so that would have been the first segment of the second hour of the show this morning.

Write us and review us if you get a chance. It's so big for us, especially on Apple and Spotify. If you give us five stars and write a quick review on Apple, it's a tremendous help. Following us as well, hit the plus button or the follow button wherever you're listening to this podcast. the more followers we have, the better it is for us as well. All right, Mike Wilbon next, after these words from a few of our sponsors. Is there anything better when you're a football fan than this time of year? It seems like there are games on around the clock.

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Call them now at 86690 Nation or head towindonation.com if you need new windows. By the way, you don't have to pay anything for these new windows for two full years because right now part of the deal is no money down, no payments, and also no interest charged for two full years. Contact them. today for a free in-home estimate, 86690 Nation or windownation.com. All right. Jumping on with me right now is one of my favorite people, Michael Wilbon. And I have to tell you, I had your name written down on my, you know, here are the people that I want to have on in the next few weeks, especially with Chicago playing Washington. And I almost called you last week. I'm actually really happy I waited.

till today because I know that you are, because I've watched some of PTI, you've got some very strong opinions about the game on Sunday, but let's hold off on that for a moment. And I just want to start with this, and that is, you've been here forever. You know what this town was, and then you saw it lost for basically the Snyder years. What's your reaction to seeing, the town's reaction to this team and in particular this quarterback? Well, remember, I live with a, I know, I married one of those people. I know you did. And so, you know, even though the team was always at arm's distance for me covering it,

and I have my own team, like you said, Kevin, I've been here 44 years now. Long time. Yeah. And what happened was so sad. I mean, just the collapse of a culture, a subculture. It wasn't even really a subculture. It was just a culture. And what happened was so sad.

And I was too close to that. Because look, in the beginning of the Snyder era, I would go out and have dinner with Dan Snyder on a Friday night before a game. And when he was hopeful and it was hopeful, and then I saw the whole collapse. And then I was not, you know, I left the post and I was watching it just as a, you know, observer who lived here and who, but who had been, you know, close to John Riggins and Sonny Jurgensen and still close to Daryl Green and Doc Walker and Doug Williams and so many

others. And, you know, it just players, coaches, people who supported the team, people who worked for it. hired an assistant away from Dan Snyder. Tony and I did, you know, 15 years ago. And the whole thing, I don't use the word tragic often, but it was tragic. To see the bounce back of it, I just, I felt relieved for the people who have been in despair. You know, my closest friends here in Washington for 40 years, Neville Waters and Eddie Cornwell. I could go on and Billy Jarvis.

These are people who went to games as kids, and then they had no team. They had to just say, I got one friend Eddie Cornwell who kept his seats and would go like the last five years religiously to empty stadiums, and I would call him during the game, and I'd say, are you at this? And he'd say, yeah, yeah, I'm here.

And, you know, I felt for everybody, in that circumstance. And so to see the bounce back, and I've had recently, I had dinner with Doug Williams, and I know the sense of relief. I am friends with Mark Eind. It sounds like I'm just name dropping,

but I'm mentioning these people because they are at the core of the despair, and now the relief and now the joy. And not just at the core of it, they're helping bring it back, Mark Eind, you know, who is, He was as Washingtonian as anybody I know here.

So I'm happy for them, happy for you, happy for all the people that this means so much too, and did not want to talk to any of you people this week after Sunday's game, did not want to see you, talk to you, speak to you. My wife came home, and she had been watching a game at her brother's house. and she just walked in and she said, I know you don't want to talk, I'm just sorry for you. And I said, I don't want to talk.

I may talk to you by Friday. Where did you watch the game? I watched it at my house. I watched it in my house. I was invited to the game by many people, including owners of the team. And I said, no, because one, I'm going to come in my Walter Payton, Jersey,

and you guys aren't going to want that. I don't want to get in fights with people, and I don't want to deal with people all day. and and then I said out loud to Mark Hine, something crazy is going to happen in this game, and I don't want to be there. That was way too prophetic. I said that to him.

I can look up the time I said it to him. I think I said to him like 2.30 each and time. So, you know, an hour and a half before kick or two hours before kick. And I just, you know, this is scarring. this is going to be as scarring as Daryl Green's punt return in the playoffs, but at least that's a play. That's a thing. That's something turned in by somebody I know and admire.

I don't just like and respect Daryl Green. I admire him as a person, as a man. And so I know Daryl well, and so I got to live with that, but I can live with that. This thing is scarring, and I don't know that. I mean, is it like, you know, the Bears never recover from double doink. The playoff game with the field goal, game winning field goal hitting two.

And Philadelphia won the Super Bowl. Yeah, they won the Super Bowl. Yeah. And then I never recovered from Bartman and neither the Cubs. And so I'm, you know, I'm still angry. I'm going to be angry about this for us. Well, you've always got 1985 in 2016 and all of your Black Hawk things. And obviously, you've got the Jordan years.

You know, you've had a lot of winners. your lifetime. I have. So I'm not feeling sorry for you. It's tempered this a little bit. But this is the bears of what we got right now, Kevin. That's what we in Chicago have. The Cubs may be on their way. The White Tocks are the worst team ever. The Blackhawks have chosen first and second the last two years. And we don't have anything right now. The Bulls are in that never, never land space like the Wizards. But, you know, this is, this is brutal. So let's go. And if your question, though, Jaden, And look, and I'm in total rivalry with you guys for the next 15 years, probably, with a Washingtonian quarterback.

Right. You know, and my, you know, you know where he went to high schools, where my son goes to high school at Gonzaggart. Well, I didn't go to high school there. I was a public school. No, no. Oh, I know. Oh, yes. I know where Matthew goes to school.

Yes, of course. And so I, you know, I love Caleb Williams, and I'm glad we drafted him. And I know you guys love Jaden and you're glad you drafted him. And I know that the commanders would have drafted Jaden if they'd had the first pick. I know that. Yeah, I did. Yep. You're right.

And that's okay. I'll take my guy and I know you'll take your guy and I wouldn't swap him. So this thing is going to go on for a while and that play is just hanging out there. So tell me, let's talk about the play. Let's talk about the last two plays for a moment. Because I want to hear what you thought about how your head coach, Matt Eberfluse, handled the play before, which he says didn't impact anything. Terribly.

Terribly. He's wrong. And everybody who know, every great coach and player knows that. And it's too bad that coaches in public, very public places in life are the only people in this culture who don't feel they can ever simply say, I was wrong, I blew it. They don't do it. And nobody holds them to it. And I like I like I like him. I like so much of what he does.

He's wrong. You got a guy with busted ribs. The ball landed at the three anyway. It came down among people's hands inside the five, not the goal line, which means if he doesn't complete the damn 13-yard pass, he can't reach it. And they wouldn't have even done it. They would have tried the lateral plays that don't ever work. Of course.

So he's wrong. He's just wrong. It's a bad play. It's poorly coached. He and his staff are wrong. And his smarter veteran players on that team, several of them have said on their record in the last 48 hours of people in Washington are paying attention, nor should they, nor should they care, hey, we should have done this.

And so the 13-yard out can't happen. You have to defend it. It can happen if they beat you. You have to defend it. Maybe you force the guy inside and the final two seconds are used up. It's a bad play. It's badly coached. And anything other than that is just wrong.

So you said about that final play, it's scarring. You know, I've been talking all week as anybody that does what I do has been talking about in this town all week. That play and, you know, putting it in perspective. Like that is, Michael, for us, that's the greatest game-ending play in franchise history. Now, Rigo's touchdown run came with 10 minutes to go. Darrell Green's punt return at Soldier Field came in the third quarter, actually. People, you know, the lore of that is that it happened late in the game. It actually came in the third quarter.

But this was the greatest game-ending play in franchise history. What about from the Chicago end? I mean, it's not really, is it on the list? It's scarring. It's scarring. Okay. Forever scarring. Yeah.

You don't get rid of it. It's scarring. That was going to be one of the great victories in Bears history to come into Washington. a city in which the Bears have played since 1937 as an opponent to come into Washington and steal one. Because they got outplayed the whole game. The other thing, I said two

things to my son Matthew as we were blowing it on the 13-yard-out. I said, they're going to throw the ball into the end zone. There's going to be a pass-and-affir's penalty, and Washington is going to get the ball to one. That's what I said out loud. And I said to him,

we don't deserve to win this game. Right. We don't deserve to win this game. I said just that. Said those two things to it. I've been watching this long enough that would feel long enough, you know, to have a sense of sort of what could happen, what may happen, what's going to happen, what deserves to happen.

And I didn't feel that game was won, and especially as he was running around for 13 seconds. I'm like, this is not going to go how well. So, all right, you guys. had the number one pick. Washington had the number two pick. You're correct. Washington, I feel convinced to talk to a lot of people over the last several months that they would have picked Jayden Daniels had they had the number one pick, no doubt. It's so early. I mean, they haven't even played their first season yet, or even their first half season yet. But do you

have a gut feel on who's going to be right long term? No. An animal. I just don't get into those kind of forecast. But I'm happy with our choice, and I'm sure Washington is happy with his choice. I'm happy with our choice of Caleb Lee. And he's taken to the town. It's taken to him. We were not in the desperate way,

even though we're in a desperate way, for a franchise quarterback like Northern franchise in the NFL. We were not in the desperate way at the moment that this Washington franchise was of being in despair. You know, during that 20 years that the Washington franchise and its fan base has been in despair, we went to a Super Bowl, lost it, of course.

Right. And we also hosted an NFC title game against the Packers and lost that, too. Right. But no, we've been in the play. No, we were not in that. We were not in an embarrassing situation where the franchise was an embarrassment,

where people didn't want to go to games and gave up their season tickets and said, I'll never go again, and declared their love for a franchise. 30 miles away, perhaps. Like some people did for Baltimore. We didn't have that. By the way, I agree with you.

You don't have to, you don't have to drill at home. I totally get it. The Bears have been a much better franchise. The context is, you know I understand the context. You know I understand the context. Yes. But different context for Caleb Williams. Although you've been in, you've been in search of a quarter.

Your franchise has been much better, but you've been in search of a quarterback for a long time. That's what I started that sentence with. We've been in search for a quarterback forever. But he doesn't have to wipe away two decades of stench. That's so the town, this town feels different about Jaden. They feel the need to be saved. We don't have that. So there's different circumstances.

Save me. Context. Yes. Well, I mean, they're different contact. This is the reality. This is the reality. You're right. They come with different purposes.

Right. And there's a sigh of relief about the arrival of Jaden that we don't have attached. We've had how many Hall of Fame players in Washington had since? When is the last Hall of Fame player? Who is it? The last player to go into the Hall of Fame? Or come for it? the last player to play, to be a Hall of Fame level play.

Oh, my God. I mean, the last player, I mean, actually, I have on my list to ask you about Devin Hester and then Brian Mitchell, but other than that, the last player to have played and become a Hall of Fame. Brian Mitchell would be the, he hasn't become one, but he would be played at that level. It would be Jacoby Grimm and Monk. And Darryl, and Darryl, and Darryl, no, Daryl Green, obviously. And Darryl, yeah, Darryl, yeah, Darry.

So that's 40 years ago. Since then, we have had Erlocker and we've had Devin Hester. So, again, my point is when you cannot tell the story of this year's Washington team without getting into the mess that has been. I know. And so, and so Jaden is a symbol of cleaning up that mess. And living here, I know that. Hell, I'm as familiar with that as anybody who, hell. I own season tickets for 15 years.

I know you did. Washington season tickets. I've never had bear season tickets, even though I go to bear games. You know what you just did? And by the way, you're not wrong. You're not wrong at all. But for many years before the Eagles won a Super Bowl in 2017, when I would hear from Eagle fans like, you know, on the air or social media or run into them,

and they would just mock the skins over and over again, which they deserve to be mocked, I would just say, yeah, when you walk into our lobby, we've got three Lombardies, where's yours? You know, because they didn't have one. And they mouth off like they, you know, that they were the best team in the NFC East history, pretty much. You just made sure to make sure that I understood, and you know I understood, that the context around Jaden to D.C., much different than Caleb to the Bears, because the Bears have been a much better organization.

True. Well, no, no, no, actually, okay, you can say it that way. What I'm thinking, what I'm thinking is different. It's the flip. Jaden means it doesn't have anything to do with the Bears. It only has to do with the Bears because he was, because those two kids are drafted and are going to be compared forever. The Washington position, the football team has nothing to do with the Bears or any other franchise.

The Washington franchise has been, there's a reason the fan base has been in despair. There's a reason all this means so much because it has been the dregs of the football universe for 20 years. Because of the guy that you had dinner with the first couple of years. Yes. Yes. Captain Milano.

Oh, you and Tony, I know you and Tony, I mean, Tony's told me about all those early days. But you know what? You guys both realized early on that it wasn't going to work with him. Well, yeah. I mean, yeah, it wasn't going to work. And then for a while you thought, okay, maybe as he brings in a consultant here and changes,

and he brought Joe back. He brought Joe back. And there was no not believing in Joe. That's true. But it still didn't work. No. So again, once again, there's no prism through which to view this without Jaden being a savior for 20 years worth of stuff

that he had nothing to do with. That's the story of the Washington football team since that third and final Super Bowl appearance. Right. So that's what people hear. Listen, I'm not a person who turned in a season ticket

because I'm not, I was never a fan of the team. That wasn't my position here in life. My wife did that. If I don't want to go, I cannot support this. I can't do this. All of you did, or most of you. Yeah, no, you're right. And so that's the, that's the context in which Jaden

plops in. And by the way, I mean, my God, that could suffocate anybody. But that kid has all the wherewithal anybody could imagine or want. It certainly seems that way. All right, let's talk

a little football here for a moment. I do want to ask you a couple of other quick things before. I let you go. The NFC North, your team's division is loaded. So I'd ask you right now, how does that division end up with the Lions, Packers, Vikings, and Bears? Lions, Packers, Vikings, and Bears. And Bears, by losing to Washington on Sunday, lost their chance, probably a small chance of making the playoffs.

But they lost that. They got the single toughest remaining schedule in the NFL. we haven't played a division game yet against those teams you just mentioned. We haven't played the six without one of the six. So Detroit's the best team, even without Aidan Hutchinson, I don't know if they're the best team in the NFC, though right now I think they are. But they need to hold home field. They don't want to have to go play the Packers outside in January. They don't want to have to do that.

But those three of the best, the Vikings, I know if any hiccup, they've lost two. you know, you don't know if you trust Sam Donald. So actually, did I say Packers second? Because that's what I meant. Yes. Lions, Packers, Vikings, Bears. You did. Yeah.

And the Bears, whether the Bears can up end, one of those depends completely on what happens the next two weeks. Can they recover emotionally? Can they use what happens Sunday as a rallying point? Or are they as devastated about it as their fan base? We'll find out. Philly or Washington in the NFC East? I don't know the strength of schedule situation. And that would probably answer it for me.

The Eagles have, I think, a slightly more difficult schedule. They play a lot of the same teams. Philly plays us twice and Dallas twice. We play Dallas twice. They have the Ravens on the schedule still. We've already played the Ravens. The skins already played with them. Yeah, I mean, they're both going to get in.

They're both going to get in. I don't know which is going to win a division. I don't study those two teams and that division like I did for 30 years when I was paid to do it. And I watch them reasonably. But I watch the Cardinals now closer than I watch Washington and Philly. But the Philly situation is so combustible, Kevin, as you know. I'm reluctant to bet on them because anything could just overturn that apple cart. You know what I mean?

Yeah. Like something unforeseen could just knock them off their perch and knock them off the equilibrium. And I don't think that will happen to Washington. They seem too solid. They seem too solid. They seem like they've got players that are understanding of how temporary things can be and they're appreciative of it. And so that's one of the things I really respect.

from afar about the commanders right now. That might be my tiebreaker, is that they see, I like the personality of the team. Do you know Mike Tomlin well? No, I can't say well. Okay. I'm interested, I mean, I've always been interested in him

in the fact that he's never had a losing record, and he's obviously a great coach. I think he's put together a Hall of Fame career. But switching from your old quarterback, Justin Fields, to Russell Wilson, and they looked like a different team the other night. And I just, I was curious as to what you think of him, the job he's doing, Russ as the starting quarterback in Pittsburgh. They're in that division with Baltimore.

I think Lamar Jackson's having the best year of his career. But just, I was curious as to whether or not you had any thoughts on the Steelers and Tomlin and Russell Wilson. I mean, I'm watching that very. closely because of Justin Field. I was a guy who did not, I was not in favor of dumping Justin Field. Right. Although seven weeks in, I completely side with the organization for doing what they did.

And switching to Caleb. I see the things, the things that Justin doesn't do well, he still doesn't do well, if he didn't do well for three seasons in Chicago, he still doesn't do well. And Mike Tomlin knows that. And I've had defensive players, even former players with the Bears, point that out to me, like during the off season, they say, dude, we got to trade field. We have to. Yeah.

Great kid, has some attributes, does some things that make you want to hug him and keep them, but we got to get right. And so Tomlin sees those same things now, but it's still okay to have both of them. And Tomlin's a different guy. You know, Tom was a different guy. He's got the right offensive coordinator there. He's not a, he doesn't look for scapegoats. like, what's his name, who was in New Orleans, who's in Denver now.

Sean Payton. He was a really good coach who I can't stand. Sean Payton. One of the few Chicago guys I can't stand. And, you know, Tomlin just, he gets it right. What more is you? To me, I just start there. He gets it right.

He's gotten it right for a whole career. Even if he doesn't get it right for another day, he's gotten it right. So I think that having Russ, you know, he understood, okay, here's what Justin can give me. and I think he's going to figure out a way before the season, before we get to Thanksgiving, to use both of them to incorporate feel. And by the way, with quarterbacks getting hurt as much as they do, he's got two guys who can play,

two guys he feels he can trust, he understands the difference in each one of them, and how the team responds to them, but Russ can get the ball down field in a way that feels doesn't. So, you know, I look at that, That's a, you know, for any Chicago, and that's a real point of interest is how that plays out. Yeah. The quarterback that we had that we thought was going to be our guy.

All right. One more on the NFL. Is there anything other than the Bears and maybe, you know, you're rooting and you're happy for your wife and for those people that you know who have suffered for so long here in D.C.? Do you have another team rooting interest this year for any reason or play? player rooting interests this year? That's a great question. And Fields is probably the answer to that. That's a great question.

I kind of semi-route for the Cardinals. Because you're out there so much. I understand what they are. Yeah. Yeah. I understand what, and, you know, Bears and Cardinals play this week. But I understand what they are. And their quarterback is literally Mercurial,

and people don't even remember what Mercurial met. Yeah. It's taken all new meaning. You know, he's up and down in a way that he's going to give you six games where you just say, this guy's the greatest thing I've ever seen, and he's going to give you six where you want to trade him. So that's just what the Cardinals are. They're very entertaining because of that. And I'm interested in my division.

You know, this is not, so Cheryl, Kevin, she doesn't understand how the Big Ten operates like it does. And the Big Ten by extension, in the same people, in the same places, sorry Maryland, Penn State, and Oregon and Cal. I ain't talking about that. I'm talking about the real big thing. You know, this is year 11 for us. It's been 11 years. I know.

And so from Penn State, it's close to 20. Yeah, I still, trust me, I still consider myself to be an ACC guy. Good, good. And you know, I love that about you. So I watched my conference, my division in the NFL, the same way I watch the Big Ten. And Cheryl goes crazy as a double-ACC graduate, Virginia and Duke. She goes crazy, and she says, why does the Big Ten network work so well? I said because we root for each other at some point against you people, which means everybody else.

And I said, you can't do that. You people can't get over the divisiveness between Carolina versus Duke and Duke versus Disney State, and Maryland hates it. Maryland hates Duke and Duke and Duke Canada. We get over that. We get past that, whether it's the Big Ten. and the Big Ten Network works in a way because of that, that the ACC and the SEC and none of the other networks work. And so does the NFC North, which is what it is.

I mean, the NFC Central is not the North. And so I root, at some point, Tony said to me, you're rooting for the Lions. I said, no, I'm not. I'm rooting for the city of Detroit. I'm rooting for Detroit. I root for Minnesota because I hate New York and Boston and Philly. I don't like you people.

And I don't even hate New York. I hate New Yorker. And I say that in real, real response, Kevin, I will root for, to answer your question, I will root for my division. Not against the Bears, but I sit there, Cheryl walks in the room and she goes, how can you root for the lions to beat the Cowboys? I said, I want the Lions to crush the Cowboys. Just so you know, I agree with you. And I think you're wrong about ACC fans for all those years. And look, the ACC's different.

You know, the conference reshuffling has ruined everything. NIL portal have helped as well. But once we got to the NCAA tournament, I rooted for the ACC teams to do well. My dream was to see an all four, you know, an all final four of Maryland, Duke, Carolina, and NC State. Now, you know, it did get hard to. But you were the rare. You were the rear piece. I don't know about that.

that. I got so, I'm related to so many ACs. I got a whole F.M.C. East. None of them can root for each other. Cheryl can't root for Clemson. In the national championship football, she can't root for Clemson. She can't root for NC State. But I've been in some of those arenas for, you know, regionals and sub-regionals where, you know, there were two or three ACCC teams there, and the chance would go up from all three fan bases that were there, ACC, ACC, ACC, ACC. Let me just say, though, that NFC Eastwise, I've always rooted for the Cowboys and the skins to be good at the same time again because it produced some of the greatest memories of my sports, you know, rooting life when both of those teams were playing the biggest games of the NFL season. But once those teams get into the playoffs, I'm not rooting for them.

I don't want them doing well once we get into the postseason. But anyway, let's take a quick break. and then we will talk a little more football, and I'll get to some NBA with you as well. We'll do that with Mike Wilbon, right after these words from a few of our sponsors. So, guys, if you're like me and you've basically been buying and wearing

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Yes, that one reeks. More on that tomorrow. Right now, Washington, a three-and-a-half-point favorite, the total 44 in their game Sunday at one against the Giants in the Meadowlands. MyBooky.orgie.org promo code, Kevin, D.C. We continue with Michael Wilbon. A couple of NBA things for you. Number one is this.

Are the Wizards doing it the right way this process that they're going through right now? Yes, it's the only way to do it. So are there any players like a Kulabali, you know, I don't know what you think of any of the young players. So you... Yep. But the key for them, right, Mike, is to somehow get Cooper flag. You know, somehow end up with one. No, no, no, no, no, no, it isn't it. It isn't the key. You don't, you don't, you have to end up with a

player who becomes a great player. You don't even have to end up with a one or two or three pick. Just for a second, Kevin. Janus, Kauai. Yes. Yes. Yeah, I know. Yeah. Yeah. Yokich. The great player. I mean, my God, Yoke is in second round. Yeah, true. And so, you know, even a, even a guy like Jalen Brunson, who is now a top six, seven player in the league. No, you don't have to, no, you don't. So you just have to end up with a transformational top five elite player. There you go. There you go. I don't care what his name is. I don't care where he's from.

Right. You know, if it could be Shea Gilgis Alexander. How about the clippers blowing that? How about that? Yeah, crazy. You know, you got to get you, you have to get one of those players. You've got to get lucky in the draft. I don't care what franchise you are. Or if you look, if you look, The only two places where people go as free agents in Southern California and South Florida. That's it. Yeah. They don't go anywhere else.

Right. So you got to draft. So that's a fallacy, right? Yeah. So you've got to draft. You've got to get somebody in the draft. You've got to get lucky to get. By the way, I like cool about it.

I really do. I do too. I do too. I mean, I don't. You might, you might. You got to get lucky in the draft a time or two. And then you, you know, somebody's got to develop. It can be a late bloomer.

I mean, Janus was what? 13th? Yeah. Wasn't Kauai 15? Dylan Brunton is, the name is Foundation, is second round, because he was chosen in the second round, and Dallas got rid of him.

So, you know, I know, you don't need Cooper Flag. First of all, and I can't wait to watch Cooper Flag, but I don't, Kevin, how much pressure is his kid going to be under? Yeah, I mean... Pressure is the first white American

star going to be in 20 years going to be under. How much pressure? Can he take that? I hope he can. I hope he can. But people to, if anybody thinks that this kid is not going to be under

an immense amount of pressure, think again. Because he is. How will that... Caitlin Clark, are you kidding me? Relative to this kid? Remember, Larry Bird had the perfect

personality to endure what he did. He did the perfect personality. And Larry Byrd was such a character and he was sort of disconnected from reality because of that personality that we look back at it and we say everybody looked at bird in admiration. I'll tell you what, it didn't work for Christian Leitner. And he was thought to be incorrectly, we can all say now, he was thought to be, come on, he was the second player chosen, right? After a long ago morning, is that that draft or after Shaq or when?

whatever. He was in that draft, right? Yeah. I want to say fourth or five. You know, that's, yeah, whatever. Oh, I don't think he was that low. I think he had to be top three. It would have been the 1992 NBA draft, right? Yeah, so that's like Shaq Alonzo and Leightoneman. I'm going to tell you right now. But anyway, he was third. He was third.

I mean, so. Okay. So, Shaq Alonzo. And it, it, it, it, he didn't chafe under it. Because I think he had, he wasn't the player that we thought, even though he made like one and lost our game. He wasn't the player we thought. He had a long career. Long career.

13, 14 years. Yeah. Yeah. But Cooper Flag is not just about being talented. We, come on, we know talented players all the time. I tell you, we read Rex Chapman's book. Rex Chapman was a supernova. Yeah.

And all these things worked on him. Okay, Jerry West. Like, like, one of the things that I feel most fortunate in my career was I got to, for whatever reason Jerry West liked me, and he, we just, talk long hours for years, and I got to listen to Jerry West. And all of these things, the subculture that white players have to operate it, and it wasn't even a subculture for Jerry West, the league was still at least half white when Jerry West was in it.

But Jerry was acutely aware of the dynamic of race. And it's one of the things that makes Jerry West, like Pat Rowley, he's so beloved among black players, executives, patrons, is that they were aware of it and could speak to it. And they could navigate the pressures of it. Is this kid going to have that? A touch of it. Don't you think it's just different now?

First of all, Larry Bird came into a league that was flailing. Flailing. The NBA is so healthy now. It's so international now. The NBA is, Kevin, but the culture isn't? They operated a bigger... I'm sorry, it's the same culture that Caitlin Clark operates in. And you don't want to ask that question about her ability and what she faces.

I know, but the WNBA had no attention on it until she came into the league. And guess what? Once again, once again, when is the last white All-Star there's been? There are people and cultures, subcultures, I don't want to get political. When was the last white American-born All-Star? Exactly what I was going to ask you. Stockton? Seriously? I'm just thinking...

Maybe. Because every... Here you and I are, here you and I are students and devotees of the league, and we don't know. Well, it's become such an international league. The league's best players for all intents and purposes are international. Kevin, I'm glad you are who you are. I appreciate that about you and half a decade. Let's not ask...

Look, I got white... American friends, colleagues, dear friends, who will say, oh, Joker, he doesn't count. He's not. No, no, no, don't get me wrong. I understand that there's a difference. I'm saying, what I'm saying, I'm not talking about the difference. I'm talking about the perception that leads. Yes. But what I'm saying is that a white American-born player, let's just call him Cooper flag, comes into the league in 2024. is a lot different than Larry Bird coming into the league in 1979, 1980. Really? Really? A nation is divided as this one is right now? Really? I think that... How will the pressure... I'm glad you feel that way. I'm glad you feel the way. And I know you, and I know you actually feel that way. And Kevin, that's, you know, my brother, I'm glad you feel that way.

that way. That ain't what's going down. Well, how will it manifest itself then? As it's ever been. Okay. Other reasons, other ways. Of course. I mean, we're more polarized. I mean, although you're older than I, so you were alive in 68 when half of our cities were burning to the ground.

But that's a different story altogether. I would say to you how, if it's, if he'll have more pressure on him than any white American born player ever coming into the league, how will that manifest itself?

Not specific to him, but how will we feel that as fans? People will line up just like about Caitlin Clark. Every hard foul will be examined to death. Listen, we got social media now. You have morons who could not have access to the airways, either in 1968 or 78. When Bird was coming up, you have morons who stir the pot. you might have a president who might say anything, who might say anything.

I don't think it'll be the same as Caitlin Clark. I don't, I just don't think, I don't see it being anywhere near the Caitlin Clark. I see it being worse because he's going to get more attention. Because more people still pay attention on a given night, as much attention as Caitlin Clark Clark brought to the W, and God knows it's huge. And it's almost unthinkably large. It is great that all of a sudden that league is getting this attention. But look at what's going down.

Look at what happened one locker room scene with Christine Brennan. You think to multiply this, man. But see, look, don't mistake what I'm saying for naivete because it's not. Because I understand the Caitlin Clark thing, and I was here talking about it a lot. I mean, much more than I ever thought I would because I got wrapped up into it. I had never watched a WNBA game, and I finally watched one. And some of the things that were happening, of course, it was definitely, a race was a big part of it. In the NBA, in 2024, I just, it's just, it's my sense.

Listen, listen, you have me, if there are no incidents, when I say incident, I hope I'm wrong. The one thing I'm never wrong is about anticipating. By the way, he's got to be great. He's got to be great at Duke and then be a consensus clear cut number one, number one. By the way, just real quickly, it definitely was Stockton. Stockton, I've just... Oh, Stockton was a laugh. Yeah, I just went through.

I mean, I did it quickly. I thought you were right about that. I thought you were right. I did it quickly, but it looks like... What year was that? Like 1996 or something, seven? 1990. Wait a minute.

Hold on here for a second. Stockton was second team all NBA in 96, second team, which means it's been even longer since there's been a first team, white American-born player. And that was probably Stockton, too. Stockton 95, correct. Stockton 95. There you go.

So I had the player right. Kevin, it's going to, Kevin, it's going to be too. I know, I know the world. The world is, people are bad. I'm a cynic. I turn it to a cynic. I think I see the worst in people because we're seeing it now. We see it in this country.

And in the world, we're not going to see it because they're going to look at us and say, really? They care this much about that? Yeah, because we do. We do. I want to make sure, because we'll end up having this conversation when he enters the league. I want to make sure that I'm down on the record as saying, of course it'll be something. but I don't think it'll be anything resembling what we just, what we just witnessed with Caitlin Clark.

I hope my friend Kevin Sheehan is right. Yeah. I'm going to say that. Very good. I fear, my fears are that you're not. All right. I hope you are. Last one.

Who's going to win the West? Oh, Oklahoma City. I think Oklahoma City can win the whole thing. And you know, I'm not one of those people who, I'm not one of those people who, I'm not one of those people who believe that young teams can do anything. Right? I just don't. Right. It's been

a, I just don't believe. It's been an older person's league. It's a hard knock league. You know, you get your heart crushed multiple times. Multiple. I don't care, except for Magic, Duncan, and Russell. Right. Everybody else, Bird, Kobe, LeBron, George, I don't care who it is. You get crushed. You get your heart

broken. And Oklahoma City's only had won. But man, Kevin, they're loaded. They're loaded. And Holmgren, I love the fact that Holmgren is a mean streak and seems to dislike Wimbarniama. I love that. And so Holmgren

is now getting 15 rebounds in game. You're kidding me? Wait a minute. And you add it Caruso and Hardinstein to the number one C? Yeah. They're the best. Chet Holmgren. Yeah.

How about him? How about him? Listen, he can beat Cooper flag to the, to the, he could be an all-star this year. Why, why, he was the number two pick in the draft, right? Number two? Number three. But nobody, nobody knows him. You know, nobody knows who he is. He did. And by the way, yeah. He didn't go to Duke. No, he didn't go to Duke. But he went to Gonzaga and he played, didn't he play a championship game? Stop. Gonzaga doesn't have some meaning. He played the championship game.

They got smoked by Baylor, right? What? Let me let you in on something. Okay. Go ahead. Let me speak for a lot of people. Yeah. resentful black folks don't resent Gunzaga. They resent we, Duke. Let's get that straight. Okay. Come on now. Come on. Let me be real. Let me be real. For a second. Right. Unless you're part of the Duke family.

Yeah. Unless you're part of that Duke family. Black people can't even pick Gonzaga out on the map, white or black people don't know where they are. Did Holmgren playing that national championship game when they got their ass kicked by Baylor or not? I don't, I'm forgetting them. And see, we don't, and see, Holmgren doesn't come with a God assessment. The people have already declared the kid from Maine God.

No, that's, that, that is true. And yes, there's a difference between Gonzag and Duke. I get it. Enormous. I know. Enormous. But he may be the next white American-born player to make an NBA first team. We agree on that. Okay.

We agree on that. You know what? So I asked you about the West because it's just amazing how many really good teams there are in the West. There are. I mean, Dallas gets no attention. I mean, Clay has already had a game in which you win 6, 4, 11 from 3. Yeah. And Denver.

Denver was going to win multiple championships when they beat Miami two years ago. Except they're done. Except they're done. They have no bench. No bench. They're done. In terms of winning, they're done. The next thing you'll hear out of there is, you know, is Mike Malone in the hot seat. You're going to hear you hear all that.

And they're done. Minnesota is ahead of them now, expose them, and then got ahead of them. Dallas is ahead of them. Oklahoma City is way ahead of them. Sacramento may be ahead of them. The Suns are ahead of them. The Lakers look pretty good so far, but I have my, I don't know that I think that LeBron and AD can play in 90% of the games

in a season right now, again, the second straight year. And they did that last year. I don't know that I believe that. So, yeah, there's a lot of stuff, man. But to your point, I like, you know, I just, I like Oklahoma City, love Chet Holmgren. And look, I mean, SGA makes that thing go.

He's so good. But when you have, when your second and third best players are Jalen Williams and Chet Holmgren, come on now. I mean, they're,

you know, they're, they're so good. And I was rude. The best thing it can happen to Cooper flag is if Chet Holmgren is an all star this year.

The best thing it can happen to that kid is to have homegrin and have a great first half of the year. You know, who does SGA's, like, We may have talked about this a year and a half ago, or the last time we talked. But don't you think he has one of the more unique games for a superstar that we've seen in a long time? Yep.

They have to ask him to shoot more threes. They have to ask him to shoot more. The guy screaming at the bench-lating game, SGA take the shot. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Everything about him.

I love him. I love watching. I love watching. And it's like it's all just sort of, there's such a lot. subtlety to everything he does. What a great player that kid is. Love him. All right.

This was fun, as always. I hope you and the family are well, and it's good to catch up. Same to you. Enjoy. Kevin, it's good to catch up. Arizona and the Bears this weekend. Enjoy your first football season of consequence

in quite some time. Enjoy the hell out of it. And, you know, we will, you can send us thank you cards for contributing to it along the way. Yeah, we didn't even get into Tyreek Stevenson and that whole thing. I can't believe I didn't ask you. It's good. It's good because I have to live and work the rest of the week.

Go do your thing. Thanks for doing this. I'll talk to you soon. All right, man. Be good. Good talking to you. Mike Wilbon, everybody. Always good to catch up with him.

That is it for the day. Back tomorrow with Tommy.