The Kevin Sheehan Show - Conscientious Objector

Episode Date: April 7, 2020

Kevin and Thom on the show today discussing up front the passing of all-time great Bobby Mitchell. Plenty of Redskins discussion including Thom's thoughts on DeAngelo Hall's comments last week about Dwayne Haskins. Also, what Shawn Springs told Kevin on his radio show yesterday about Haskins. Plenty of other stuff too including MLB's hopes of returning in May, the NFL 2010s All-Decade team, and the 33-year anniversary of Hagler-Leonard. <p> </p><p>Learn more about your ad choices. Visit <a href="https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices">podcastchoices.com/adchoices</a></p> Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You want it. You need it. It's what everyone's talking about. The Kevin Sheehan Show. Now here's Kevin. You're listening to The Sports Fix. Yep, Tommy by phone, I am here. Aaron is now at home as well. I made the decision, Tommy, that Aaron and I, you know, at least for the foreseeable future, are a bit too close in studio. So Aaron's going to do all of his work from home as he puts together and edits the podcast and handles all of what we handle after the actual content of the podcast has been produced. He's going to be able to do that from home, which means that we won't get Aaron's input during the course of the show right now. But what I'll do probably on days where you're not here is I'll have Aaron call in by phone and then Aaron will be a part of the show that way.

If you miss the show on Friday with Cooley, a lot on the Redskins. it got a lot of attention as well some of the things that he said about Kyle Allen and Dwayne Haskins. I'd urge you to go back and listen to Friday show. Sorry about yesterday. Something came up. Family, you know, we're all trying to get through every day and there were some needs that I had to be involved in yesterday. And so we took yesterday off. But hope everybody... The most important thing right now is home. That's the most important thing. I know, but this is not, you know, on a daily basis that, you know, this isn't a massive commitment.

But my, you know, first commitment, I can't miss the radio show, so I had to miss something yesterday, and it ended up being the podcast. But you know what? It was better that you're here today to sort of do the Bobby Mitchell passing together. But before we get to any of that, first of all, you know, hope everybody's healthy, well, and continues to be so. that's the most important thing. And again, can't thank you enough for continuing to listen to the podcast. But the last time we talked to Tommy,

Tommy was in the hospital in Frederick, Maryland, getting ready for gallbladder surgery. At the very end of the show on Friday, Tommy, you had just texted me to tell me you were good, you were coming home by 3 o'clock, so I let everybody know that it went well. I know that the nurses were thrilled to see you go. how did everything turn out? Are you healthy again?

Everything turned out great. I mean, it couldn't have turned out better to post-op stuff. You know, they sent me home with a painkiller, and I haven't even had to take tyling off. I've got five little slips in my stomach, at different parts of my stomach, sort of like a coin slot, five little coin spots, where they basically, pulled out, I guess pulled out my gallbladder or sucked it out through a two or something. How many of these things do you have five? Five. And one of them's a little bit bigger than the rest where they had to do a little bit of extra work.

And that's been sore but not painful and certainly not intolerable by any stretch. You know, I had in the hospital that day, a couple about two hours after service, surgery, they gave me spaghetti and meatballs. So, you know, my diet's been fine. And I'm just not supposed to do any exercise or activity for two weeks, but I feel great. I really, I mean, you know, Frederick Memorial Hospital, they treated me great. They did a great job. And, you know, if this was going to happen, I'm glad it didn't happen two weeks from now,

as opposed to last week. Yeah, yeah. Look, I knew it was going to turn out well. I'm curious, you know, and I know you haven't told me this in the past for some reason, but they sent you home with a painkiller, and you haven't even had to take any Tylenol or anything else. Have you taken the painkiller? No, I have not.

Okay. I haven't taken anything. What did they prescribe? Tramadol is the new painkiller of choice. Wow, you told me what it was. Last time you wouldn't even tell me what it was. I was like Creed Bratton. I was like Creed Bratton going down the list.

Was it codeine? Was it oxy-cotton? Was it morphine? Was it fentanyl? And you wouldn't. That must have been because you were being obnoxious. Probably. Probably.

But, I mean, they used to give you something different. You know, there's a whole oxy-contin. the whole oxycodone, oxycotton, oxycotton, opioid addiction that has gripped the country, the downside of that is for people who really need painkillers, it's now more difficult to get, and doctors are more reluctant to give out stronger painkillers. So this is like the second time in two months I've gotten this stuff, Tramagol. Yeah. And the last time I had it was with the gout, and I took it.

And it had no impact. It had nothing, you know? How is the gout? Well, the gout's fine. Okay. So you're back to normal, you're back to normal, basically. I'm at fighting strength, baby. That's good.

All right. I'm ready to go. That's good. We're so happy. I mean, people on Twitter were asking me, and I was glad to get it. it in, slip it into the end of the podcast, that you were healthy. And, you know, I think everybody lit up a cigar when you were gone because you're not the easiest patient to deal with. You've admitted that. But I'm just glad you were able to basically walk out of there rather than having

to stay longer. It just means that it went well. So we're all happy about that. I'm like a medical anomaly, and you could tell from dealing with the doctors and the nurse, because, you know, there's parts of me that sound like they're falling apart. I mean, like I had gout two weeks ago, and now I'm back in the hospital with a gallbladder, you know, surgery. I had a bronchitis during the summer. And, you know, individually, when you add them up, it sounds bad. But then when they're going through, when I'm in the hospital, and they're running all the test, all the blood work, everything they can, and everything turns out great, and they're

saying, what's wrong with you? Yeah. Well, Tommy, Tommy, what makes you so medically complex is your medical simplicity. Did you not explain that to them? I guess I forgot when they were like. I told you before, and they're listening to my lungs. Every time they listen to my lungs, they say how great my breathing is. You did tell me that.

And, you know, my blood pressure was on point every time. My temperature was 97, 98. You know, my cholesterol, my cholesterol is like 140. You are, I mean, don't let the actual age and condition. of your physical condition from afar. Full people. You are in phenomenal medical shape. You're a healthy man.

Well, let's not go crazy. There's just some parts of me that just don't make sense. You know, I mean, they always... Like your legs? Yeah. Yeah, like somebody like my head of a midget. Yeah. The legs of a midget, basically?

Yes. Basically. Tommy's got very short legs, long torso short legs. I'm 5'10. My wife is 5'3, and her legs are the same length as mine. So I show you what I'm dealing with. And like, here's what they always say to me. They always say, you're diabetic, right?

And I say, no, I'm not. And they look at me like I'm lying to them. So it's always interesting when they get a look at me. But again, if you were to follow my track record over the last, last six months, you would think I'm at death store. Well, who knows what's going on? What's always, you know, we'll move on to Bobby Mitchell here, who's, who passed away over the weekend.

But the thing that's worried me about you over the years, more than anything else, isn't gout, it's not, you know, gallbladder, it's not, you know, knee replacement or any of those things. It's all the bronchial stuff that you've had, the respiratory stuff. That's the stuff that I want you, you know, you need to get out of that cycle every winter especially. Well, my lungs are good. All right, there we go. I'm not worried about you. Let's get to several things today. And let's start with Bobby Mitchell because I didn't do a show yesterday. And I talked about him for, you know, a while. You know, he was one of, and I know you had a chance to have conversations with him as well, just one of the nicest men.

He was always so kind and so helpful over the years, you know, when we were a part of the station that the Redskins at Snyder owned, and we were in a lot of different places where sometimes he was. And, you know, even though he hasn't been with the organization since 2003, there was his golf tournament, you know, every year. I've had him on the show. He's always been such a nice man. But what an incredible life.

I'll let you go first. There's something I actually really want to bring up with you if you don't get to it, because I think you remember this sort of iconic photo that he's a part of. But give me your thoughts on Bobby Mitchell. Well, I mean, he was, you know, in a lot of these situations, he was the Redskins Jackie Robinson. Yes. I mean, the guy who, although he was one of four black players,

that opened the season for the Redskins, that 62 season. He was the highest profile black player for them. And I wrote in a column that George Preston Marshall, in a bizarre way, his two greatest personnel decisions were drafting Sammy Ball, number one, when the Redskins came to town in 37, and then trading Ernie Davis, the Heisman Trophy winner in 1962, who the Redskins had drafted to Cleveland for Bobby Mitchell. We all know the story about Ernie Davis.

He wound up with leukemia, died and never played a down in the NFL. While Bobby Mitchell, the Redskins had won two games in the previous two years. They were like 2, 21, and 3. in 60 and 61. They won five games in 62. And that was pretty much because of the rival Bobby Mitchell. I mean, you know, it's rare that players are worse that many games. But what Bobby Mitchell brought to the offense was at then, I think it was Norm Sneed at quarterback.

It was, yes. Yeah. Really, it was tremendously impactful. And the off-the-field was even more impactful because he had to, like a lot of men put in those Jackie Robinson kind of situations, he had to endure a lot of racism, a lot of pressure, and he chose not to lash out about it. He chose to be tolerant of it and to be a role model, which he told me he was always thinking of young black kids when he was doing that, when he would just, you know, when he

wouldn't lash out at the stuff that he would get. And he did an interview with me for my book, Hale Victory. And I just want, if I can, can I go over some of the comments any of me? Yeah, please. He said, this is all quotes. When I went to a kickoff lunch in there when he first got there, everybody stood up and I thought the Redskins fan was going to play the national anthem. Then I heard, I wish I was in the land of cotton. Oh, my God. But in the black community, I was the shining light, the player they had waited for all those years. I couldn't make any mistakes on the field.

I had to be perfect every game. I had upset the apple cart, you see, when all I wanted to be was a great football player. I wasn't accepted by a lot of the white guys on the team. This is really hard stuff here. The fans would yell, run, and then he used the N-word, run. I was spat on at Duke Sieber's restaurant. I wanted to punch somebody. I found out quickly that how I handled myself made a world of difference.

A lot of bad things happened to me, but as long as the black kids saw me stay within myself and not lash out, they would stay within themselves and not lash out as well. I wish I could have played one day without any problem. I went to the stadium with a trunk on my back. it never ended. And when you've got, when you've played like that and still make all pro, I'm proud of that.

So, I mean, he had it really rough. And for years, you never heard, you know, Bobby Mitchell basically, you know,

give back what he took. And he was better than the, he was a better hero than a Redskins deserve. Wow. You know, um, I talk. yesterday on the show about, you know, and played some of the sound from Jim Brown in an interview he did with James Brown a few years back. We're in talking about Bobby Mitchell, the two of them played together in Cleveland. They were backfield together in Cleveland. He had said that Bobby Mitchell had to face things in Washington that, you know, none of us had to face. You know, a lot of people out there don't know. And many of you do. But in 1962, this city, you know, was a

a completely different city. It was very much a sleepy southern city. I know that seems sort of impossible to think of now because it's big and it's sprawling and it has more of a northeast personality than it does anything else. But in 1962, and I just, I know this because I wasn't alive for it, but, you know, my father's told me over the years what D.C. was like, you know, back then. He grew up in this city and he said it was really, It was a racially segregated city. It was very southern and personality. It was obviously below the Mason-Dixon line.

Technically it was the South. But it had a southern sort of personality and mentality, and it was uncomfortable. And, you know, it had an owner of its football team in George Preston Marshall, who was an avowed racist. He was not quiet about it. He was openly racist and said about bringing. integrating the Redskins and they were the last team to integrate in the NFL in 1962 with the arrival of Bobby Mitchell. He said, my fan base, you know, it will hurt my business. My fan base won't accept it. But he got pressure, Tommy, as you know, he got pressure

from the president, John F. Kennedy. He got pressure from, at the time, the Department of Interior Secretary, Stuart Udall, who basically issued an ultimatum, took. to Marshall, this stadium was built on land owned still to this day by the Department of Interior. It is a federal government property. We know that, and we've been through these conversations when we've talked about the stadium before. And they essentially issued him an ultimatum that if he didn't sign a black player prior to the start of the 62 season, they were going to revoke the Redskins lease on D.C. Stadium, which had just opened the year before. It eventually became RFK Stadium. And so he drafted Ernie Davis. Now, somebody asked me, and it was a really good question, and I didn't

mention this the other day, that Ernie Davis was drafted in December. Back then, the draft was after the college season started and the NFL season was still going on. I mean, think about that, right? Ernie Davis was drafted number one overall in the 1962 NFL draft, which took place on December 4th, one. All right. The Redskins took Ernie Davis out of Syracuse. Ernie Davis, by the way, didn't want to come to Washington to play. And, you know, in part sort of forced the trade, which brought Bobby Mitchell and others here, Leroy Jackson included. And Ernie Davis went to Cleveland, and as you mentioned, he had leukemia and never played it down. A lot of people thought that Ernie Davis, and maybe you remember this, I don't know if you do or not, a lot of

people sort of compared Ernie Davis to Jim Brown in terms of running style, where Bobby was much more of sort of a half-back flanker, you know, pass catcher, fast. Jim Brown, as we know, was a combination of all of those things, but really more of a fullback. You know, I watch, it's interesting you say that, because one of the things I watched yesterday was a football life of Jim Brown, and he said that very thing about Ernie Davis, how you know, Bobby Mitchell complimented Jim Brown's, you know, skills as part of the backfield.

He was like a complimentary figure, whereas Ernie Davis would have been a repetitive type of figure. So Tim Brown did actually point that out that Bobby Mitchell was probably a better fit for their offense with Jim Brown in it than Ernie Davis would have been. That's so funny because that you, watched a football life yesterday of Jim Brown. On Sunday before the news came out that Bobby Mitchell

had passed away, I watched a football life Paul Brown. And, you know, you have said to me many times before, and it's not that I didn't know this. I hadn't seen this particular, a football life episode of Paul Brown, but you've said many times he's considered to be, you know, he's one of the greats, if not the greatest of all time. Bill Belichick thinks he is the greatest coach of all time. And in that episode on Paul Brown, there are several Bobby Mitchell, you know, appearances talking about Paul Brown and playing for Paul Brown. And then it was literally an hour after that ended, you know, I got the news that Bobby Mitchell, you know, the news hit that Bobby Mitchell passed away. But, you know, the trade for Ernie Davis was made by Paul Brown without the knowledge of then owner Art Modell. Modell and Brown didn't like each other at all.

Modell was very much a hands-on owner. Paul Brown had built essentially a dynasty in Cleveland with the Browns. And Art Modell didn't want that trade. It had already been made. Paul Brown thought that the combination of Ernie Davis and Jim Brown, basically two Jim Browns in the same backfield, was going to equal Horning and Taylor, is the way he described it in that particular football life episode.

He said, you know, Green Bay had proven that you needed two of them. with Horning and Taylor, and so that was really the move for us. But by the way, Tommy, Paul Brown, wow, what a career. What an innovator. At the end of his career, he basically starts an expansion franchise and turns them into winners. Yeah. The Cincinnati Bengals.

Yes. He turned Cincinnati. I mean, that's at the end of his career. Yeah. with by the way revenge in mind from the jump. He hated Art Modell. He hated Cleveland cutting ties with Paul Brown. He was out of football for a few years,

came back in when Cincinnati became an expansion team, basically copied the helmets, the uniform colors, the whole thing. He was creating the Cleveland Browns in Cincinnati. And he did win in Cincinnati as a coach, not a Super Bowl, but they got to the playoffs a couple times. He got to the playoffs in three years. He took an expansion team to the playoffs, which, by the way, seemed like an impossible feat in future years for expansion teams. And then Jacksonville and Carolina pretty much blew all of that out of existence because in their second year they were in the championship games, if you recall, back in 96 or 97, whatever year that was.

But Paul Brown was such an innovator. And Bobby Mitch, his players loved him. You know, he was really, you know, he didn't care what color you were if you could play. And Cleveland was considered such a progressive team back then in sports, really. Yes. Marion Motley, you know, many people give Paul Brown the credit for integrating professional sports with Marion Motley. Because actually his debut came a year before Jackie Robinson's debut. It's just that football wasn't nearly as popular.

Yeah, I mean, look, Jim Brown is great to watch, the highlights of Jim Brown, but the Marion Motley highlights are just unbelievable to watch that guy run over people. I mean, really, I love watching Marion Motley videos. Yeah. So anyway, it's funny that you watch the Jim Brown thing because the Paul Brown thing was really good. You know, a couple things. all, you know, Bobby Mitchell, the player, like, I knew that he was really good. I don't remember Bobby Mitchell at all. I remember hearing stories about Bobby Mitchell, about my father telling

me stories about Sonny Jurgensen with Bobby Mitchell and Charlie Taylor and Jerry Smith as pass catchers. The numbers he put up, though, as a professional football player during the 60s with the Redskins in particular, and you're right, the two biggest, the most productive, years for Bobby Mitchell and Washington were with Norm Sneed, his quarterback. In 62, he had 1,384 pass reception yards, which is incredible. Like, those are, you know, those are 21st century numbers. Yes. And then he had in 1963, 1,436 yards in past catching yards, 69 catches. They only played 14 games back then. He also had in those, in that two-year span, 8.5.5.5.5. touchdowns. And then in 64, you know, Charlie Taylor was then around for the Redskins in the 64

season, and his numbers went back a little bit, but they were prolific, the two of them together, you know, and eventually with Jerry Smith as well. They were just, the Redskins offensively in the 60s were one of the most exciting teams in pro football offensively. Yes. Yes, yes, they were. And, you know, he went into the Pro Football Hall of Fame in 19, the same year that Sonny did. They went in the same year, him and Bobby Mitchell. Yeah, and, you know, it was probably a little bit, you know, too long. Actually, it's remarkable that Sunny wasn't a first ballot Hall of Famer because 74 was his last year. I'm surprised he didn't go in in 79, and it took Bobby Mitchell 14 years to get in to the Hall of Fame. Bobby Mitchell

retired right before the 69 season when Lombardi arrived. Right. And at that, point, he became a part of the organization as a scout and as a future assistant general manager, but was passed over many times as a general manager candidate. You know, the first time really for Bobby Beatherd in 1978. You know, the Redskins obviously made a great choice in Beatherd. He felt a little bit of the sting with that one. Then Casterly took over. He really thought that he should have been considered multiple times, including during the Dan Snyder era. But Tommy, you remember this, and it was sort of the final insult for Bobby Mitchell. And it came during the 2003 Steve Spurrier season.

He was still a member of the organization, still had a position in the organization. And the Redskins gave out his jersey number. to Leonard Stevens, a tight end. Bobby Mitchell's number 49 had been an untouchable. We know that most of you know, the Redskins have one officially retired jersey at Sammy Boz. And then they've got a list of untouchables,

one of which was Bobby Mitchell's number 49 forever. Spurrier came in, and remember Spurrier was clueless. And by the way, Dan Snyder was clueless as well, you know, as he still is. You know, Spurrier gave number seven to Danny Worfell in training camp, gave number nine to Shane Matthews.

And there was outrage and pushback. And so he pushed back and he, you know, reissued different numbers to both of those players. But he issued number 49 to a tight end Leonard Stevens. And Leonard Stevens were that number. And that was the last, you know, Bobby Mitchell says that was essentially the last straw. You know, he was deeply hurt when Jack Kent Cook passed him over

a few times as general manager. and then Spruyer's decision to issue the number 49 uniform number, nobody picking up on it, even though there was backlash, that was it. And he retired at the end of that 2003 season. Yeah, yeah, he never felt like he got, he never felt like he got the respect he thought he deserved, that he thought he had earned. And look, I've always, I've been saying for years, and as the right thing, This is a two-track thing.

It's the right thing to do, and for Dan Snyder, it would have been smart business. One of the first things that Snyder should have done at FedEx Field or Jack Kent Cook Stadium then when he took it over was to build a statue to Bobby Mitchell outside the stadium. And here's why, from a pragmatic point of view, you're inheriting a franchise that has a racist history you're inheriting a franchise that is the target of people who think your name is racist. Why not at least make this gesture of saying we recognize the past and we're ashamed of it, and one of the things we want to do to basically recognize the people who help change us is put up a statue to Bobby Mitchell entering the stadium.

It would have been a small, it would have been a small public relations gesture, but it would have been something to have built on to have started off saying, you know, this franchise is not a racist franchise. We recognize the importance of tolerance and embracing everybody, and we're going to start it by recognizing our Jackie Robinson, Bobby Mitchell. how, how, how, it's a no-brainer. Yeah, I mean, again, it's the right thing to do,

but the public relations hit for Snyder would have been great. I, um, I don't disagree with you. I don't think it's too late to do that. I don't think it is either, except, it's too late for Snyder to do it. It's still the right thing to do, but in terms of a PR thing, I mean, look, I mean, anything Snyder does is going to be met,

rightfully so, with cynicism. You know, it's just the way it is now. But back then, he was the belt buckle boy who was the Redskins fan. You know, this was before he turned out to be, you know, took a force of destruction. Yeah. Last thing I wanted to mention, to me, this is an iconic photo. Maybe you'll think otherwise. But I have seen this photo so many times during my life, and it's always been in association,

with a Muhammad Ali story. And it came in 1967. June 4th, 1967, this photo was taken in Cleveland where Jim Brown gathered a bunch of the most famous black athletes of the day together for a summit in support of Muhammad Ali. Ali was at that point facing three years banished from boxing, had his title stripped from him. for the charges of basically draft dodging, his refusal to serve in the Army for Vietnam.

And Jim Brown put together a group of people. And there's this photo that I've seen many times during the course of my life. It's Jim Brown and Muhammad Ali and Lou Al-Sinder later would become Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Bill Russell. And then there are a group of about seven or eight, nine guys behind them, one of which is Bobby Mitchell. The others included guys that you'll remember that I don't necessarily remember all of the names. Carl Stokes, Walter Beach, Sid Williams, Curtis McClinton, Willie Davis, of course I remember, Jim shorter and John Wooten. All came together. And Tommy, I found this story that was written by Jonathan Eig on the undefeated, from the undefeated a few years back about this particular get-together.

Bobby Mitchell was an activist. Okay. He always was. but this was so interesting. You know what I'm talking about, right? Absolutely. No, no, I'm on board. I mean, it wanted a great photo of that time. Did you know, and at least, like I read the story from 2017 in the Undefeated.

So Bob Aram was a big part of this meeting. Bob Aram tried to persuade Ali to accept a deal where Ali would agree to perform boxing exhibitions for U.S. troops, and the draft dodging charges would be dropped, and he would, you know, for a period of time, would do this and then would not lose his titles and would be able to go back to boxing. Ali didn't want to do that. He wanted to take the ultimate stand, which was giving up really what turned out to be maybe three prime years of his career. All of the people that were asked to this meeting, not all of the people that were asked to this meeting, not all. All of them were basically totally supportive of Ali's position. Willie Davis in particular, and I'm looking for the line in the story here because I had it

yesterday and I need to find it again. Here it is. Willie Davis said, my first reaction was that what Ali was doing was unpatriotic, referring to Ali's anti-war stance. Davis was one of three men in the room who confirmed Aram's version of the story about Aram trying to get him to actually enter the army to do boxing exhibitions, which several in the room actually supported, which I found to be interesting, but Ali and others were not having it. He was going to take the ultimate stand, which he did. And as we know, in 1971,

it was overturned by the Supreme Court, and it led to, you know, a fight against Jerry Quarry first, right, Tommy in Atlanta. And then, you know, what most people think, is the greatest sporting event of the 20th century. Ali Fraser won at the Garden in 1971. Bob Aram, people don't know this about Aram. That's what in the early stages of his career in boxing. Bob Aram worked for Bobby Kennedy in the Justice Department in the early 60s. I didn't know that.

Yeah, yeah. So Bob Aram worked for the Justice Department as one of the things in a remarkable career. And Ali, Ali was a conscientious objector. You see, that was his status. And that was a relative to a new thing. Yeah, a relatively new thing. Was it a new thing? Did you get any of that in previous wars?

Well, I mean, I tell you what, I think it was a new thing for a lot of people. I'm sure they probably got it in World War II. You know, I'm sure they probably got it in the Korea War. but I think most people, like, I'm sure Willie Davis had probably never heard of a conscientious objector when he was dealing with it. You know, I mean, basically, you had to, I mean, he could, only all along could have done the exhibitions, the Joe Lewis tour. He could have done that from day one if he had wanted to and not dealt with any of this,

but that was not the statement he was making. I'm very familiar with conscientious objectors because I had some situation with the Baltimore Sun when I worked as a news reporter. Yeah. And your draft board, your local draft board, which was one of the most powerful organizations in America at the time. You know, each city or county had a local draft board that decided if you went or if you didn't go to war. and it was remarkable amount of power. And in Southern Maryland, there was a congressman named Roy Dyson, who was a real hawk, a real defense hawk, a war hawk. And the Washington Post came out with a story that revealed that he had been given conscientious objector status during the Vietnam War.

and by the local draft board there because of his father was so influential. And so, you know, I was working for the Baltimore son then on the state staff, and we all got reamed out because the post beat us on this story. So we had to follow it up. So I had to go down with another reporter to Southern Maryland and find a Mennonite who had been denied conscientious objector, by the draft board there.

Any Mennonite, you know, because a Mennonite, you would think, would have a legitimate reason to file a conscious of... Were you going down looking for just any Mennonite, or was there somebody that you knew you were going down there? I had to go find a needle in a haystack. I had to go find a Mennonite who just happened to be denied conscientious abjecture status during a Vietnam War. And I'm walking up and down driveways and farms, and after the second day, damned if I didn't, I found the needle in the haystack.

I found a guy who the local draft board did not give conscientious objector status to, even though he had a far better case than the former Congress. Really? Yeah. So this was, and Houston, you know, for our way, apparently, I guess the, I don't know if it was the Louisville draft board that had the power. I guess it was the Louisville draft board that had the power that could have had the power to do grant him that, but they didn't. They actually upgraded his draft status to make him eligible for the draft. So somebody should write a book about draft boards. Because they were, go ahead.

A conscientious objector, is religion the only grounds in which to conscientious object? I don't want to. Can you just be a pacifist and be considered a conscientious objector? I'm going to say, I think you can just be a pacifist. I worked, when I got out of high school, I worked for two years before I went to college. in a hospital up in a Poconos. And I worked next to a guy who was a conscientious objector. And he wasn't particularly religious.

Trust me, I had a lot of nights out with this guy. We shared the same religion when it came to nightlife. But because he did file for Conscientzumjecture status and was granted, he had been a radio broadcaster, but he couldn't stay in his job. He had to then go work in something. that was considered public service to make up the two years that he would have served in the Army. So he had to go take a job at a local hospital, which was considered a public service job at the time. So he worked at the hospital with me, had to give up his radio broadcasting job.

It was a tricking, unusual business at the time. Strange times to Vietnam War. Very strange time. It's pretty wild that they just sent you down to Southern Maryland. Do you remember what town you were in? No, near Leonardtown. Near Leonardtown. Yeah, I remember Leonardtown.

The only reason I remember Leonardtown is there was a summer camp there. It was a Catholic summer camp that my sister went to every year, I think. Yeah, and it was because we got beat on the story. Yeah. Well, was the story that you wrote about this? Was it a good one? Yeah, it was. It was a pretty good comeback, you know?

And when you found this guy, Like, how, what, which war was he denied? Vietnam War. It was during Vietnam. The whole, you know what, we have a lot of time on our hands these days. I'm going to go read about the conscientious objector stuff because I, I, there are many religions, especially in that category. And maybe I'm not in the right category here. I will grant you that I don't know if Mennonites and Quakers,

and, you know, or, and, you know, other sort of similar religions are the same thing or not. Do you know anything about it or not? Are my just way off base here? I'm sure probably that day I knew everything about it. Yeah. I don't remember any of it. Yeah, I mean, like, to me, like, I mean, this is going to sound so simple, and I understand that. And I just, when I think of Mennonites, I think of Quakers, Amish, that I'm sure there are differences,

but they all sort of believe in one thing when it comes to, you know, war. They're all pacifists. I'm pretty sure they are. I'm sure that there are different things that each group believes in. But I'm pretty sure that that's like the group and there are probably others as well, that all are sort of pacifists and they have all always been sort of granted conscientious objector status. I could be wrong about that, too.

I don't know. I'm just talking out of my ass. Well, you know what? What? That's all we're doing these days talking out of our ass. Yeah. All right. Listen to me mornings on 980, the team 980.

The bracket concluded last night with the championship game. Joe Gibbs, Tommy, did beat Alex Ovechkin in the final. Which I predicted, by the way. So did I. We both had the same final and the same prediction. 60% of the vote went to Gibbs, 40% of the vote went to Ovechkin. And, you know, that seems anybody that knows D.C. sports, whether it's because you're from here or you were from here and you live somewhere, no one's going to argue with Gibbs against Ovechkin in the final as the two greatest, you know, sports executives, players.

That's where the list came from in D.C. sports history. Nobody's going to have a problem with Gibbs winning it. I would have been surprised if he didn't. And I would have been surprised if Ovechkin hadn't been in the final. Those are the two right now. But it does speak to the change, the impact that Ovechkin has had. No doubt. Because there was a time when we were in this business where a hockey player wanted have made the elite eight.

Well, Tommy, before he won the Stanley Cup a few years ago, I'm not sure that he gets to the final. That etched his legend in St. own. It was such a great story, first of all, sports story for almost anybody. But if you go back four or five years, I mean, he probably didn't even make it to the semifinals. You know, them winning the Cup was a bit of a game changer. Now, it still didn't make them the number one most popular team in town. You know, we've had these conversations before. We don't need to have them, but it certainly elevated, you know, his status and the cap status by winning the whole thing.

A couple of things that we want to get to today. Number one is that Major League Baseball basically says that they want to be the first to get back. And I read through the entire story that Jeff Passon, I guess, was the guy from ESPN that broke the story, that they believe that there's a way that they can play in May, in Phoenix, in the Phoenix metropolitan area, where you've got not only Chase Field, but you also have, 10 different spring training facilities. They would basically isolate, you know, these players into hotels, and they would live there in isolation, and they would play games with no fans.

They would need testing. Testing's a big part of this thing to have enough testing so that they can test to make sure that players aren't testing positive. I don't know, man. You know, apparently a major health. person, it was essentially a high-ranking federal public health official, you know, actually lent some, you know, some credence to this by saying that he thought that the league could safely operate in this sort of environment, you know, playing all 30 teams in one metropolitan

area, you know, all dedicated to, you know, a few fields with no fans and being isolated. By the way, isolated from their families, let's not forget. for months to finish the season. What do you make of this? You think there's any way they pull this off? I think this is garbage. I think it's ridiculous. I think in some ways it's just a way to get baseball out, out into the open again in the conversation.

This is absurd. One thing, and look, you know this is not my MO, but in these days, given this administration, a high-ranking federal health official does not. create a lot of confidence for me. Yeah. Okay. I think there's so many things that can go wrong with this. You have to get

all the players on board. What if a few players balk and say, I'm not putting myself at risk? I'm going home. You've got to punish them? You're going to punish the players who decide, even if their union says, yeah, we'll go along with it. You've got to punish those players. All the support staff involved, uh, and Arizona,

in June, July, only Chase Field has a roof. Yeah, forgot about that, about how hot. It's 115 degrees. You know what? That is the best point made. I totally didn't even consider that about, now Tommy, it's a dry heat. It's a dry heat in Phoenix. It'll be a dry heat with dead ballplayers on the field.

I mean, so they're not going to pull this off. This is absurd. You know, it's not going to happen. You know, there's so many problems with all of this. You know, the president over the weekend came out and said the NFL is going to be ready to go in September. And meantime, the chief medical person in the NFL, his name's Dr. Alan Sills, essentially said that, you know, it's going to be really hard to play a professional sport if people continue to test positive for coronavirus and there's no treatment, no vaccine.

Because once somebody tests positive, that means everybody near that person, in contact with that person, most notably an entire team is going to have to quarantine. And so, you know, you can sort of do the logical math here, and somebody's going to test positive, just like somebody's going to test positive in Arizona. And, you know, you may have young, healthy ballplayers, but you got old managers, you got old umpires. You got families at home. You got TV techniques. You have broadcast technicians.

Right. You have stadium workers who are you going to isolate all these low-level stadium workers who cut the grass? Are you going to put them up in hotels too for months? Yeah. I don't see it. I don't see. I mean, right now until I think we may have talked about this Friday, but for being repetitive here, until there is, you know, a therapeutic treatment meds that basically, you know, it would be so uplifting to get it to,

that basically keep people from dying for the most part, you know, until we get that news, you know, even as this thing levels off and maybe even dies out to a certain degree over the summer, it's not going to completely die out. And everybody knows what's lurking in the fall and winter. I'm not trying to be a pessimist here because I want sports. And I'm optimistic that they'll come up with, you know, the treatment piece of this. Because once you come up with the treatment piece, you know, whether it's this hydroxychloroquine or whatever, and I don't want to get into all of that with the antibiotic, whatever it is, whenever you come up with a real legitimate treatment that keeps people from dying when they get sick after having this.

And you come up with enough testing and you come up with the, antibodies to, you know, test to show whether or not you've had it before and whether or not you're immune to it. But once we get a treatment that stops people and takes the angst out of dealing with the day-to-day thinking of, you know, if I get this, I could die from it, you know, and even though the odds are stacked against it, it doesn't matter. Right now, there's a big unknown and there's a big fear. You get the meds to treat people who are seriously ill. It's a whole new ballgame. It's a whole new world. I don't think that you can play large gathering sporting events, you know, practically speaking, until you have that.

Because if you don't have that, then once somebody tests positive, that whole team shut down. And the team they played the day before is shut down. And the team that team played the day before he shut down. It just doesn't seem logical that they could pull it off. I agree. And it's not being – Kevin, it's not being pessimistic, okay? it's basically not being an ostrich. And we got in this situation, in part, in terms of the seriousness of it,

is because people were not willing to consider the options, you know, the negative options. I mean, that's part of how we wound up where we are. So I don't think it's pessimistic to factor in worst case scenarios. I don't think that's pessimistic at all. Well, you know, it's not even like the worst-case scenario. You have a president that said the NFL is going to be back in September. Well, the NFL is only going to be back in September if testing positive for the coronavirus isn't a big deal. Right?

I mean, putting it as simple as you can, you've got to get to the point where testing for the coronavirus isn't that big of a deal. It's like testing for the flu, positive for the flu. Until we get to that point, you know, it's going to be, you know, like I'm a little bit confused by some of the stuff. Like I was at Target yesterday, you know, things aren't getting, like you can order, you know, from Amazon, you can order a lot of this stuff. It doesn't mean it's coming. And we needed some shit. We needed a bunch of stuff, including some, you know, over-the-counter, uh, medications, et cetera. And so I went out to Target in Rockville. The place was pretty crowded. I wore a

mask. I walked around the store. I got stuff. I got what we needed. Then I went to Whole Foods on the way back. Had a mask. But, you know, I'm wondering as I'm doing this, it's okay for retail supermarkets to be open and pharmacies and drug stores and, you know, obviously restaurants are just doing curbside, but some of them are doing carryout. Home Depot's open, you know, and I'm wondering what the difference between that and going to work in an environment where you socially distance in a work environment with a lot fewer people? I don't know what the difference is. You know, like I said before, there were two stages to this.

And I think if you were paying attention, you could get a handle on what was coming. But once it got here, I think everybody's just guessing now. I don't think anybody can really get a handle on what was coming. life is going to be like three months from now or four months from now at this point. I mean, it's all guesswork. But on the other hand, maybe I'll see you in church on Sunday for Easter. Wow. You know, if you bought that hook line and sinker when it came out, I can't help you.

That was obvious. All right. Anyway, so here's another thing, just sort of a natural segue, kind of. I did this on the radio show this morning, and I'm curious, and you guys can tweet Tommy, tweet me, at Kevin Shee in DC, at Tom Levero and Twitter. I wonder if people, we just finished our fourth weekend without sports. Fourth, all right, it's been a month. It seems like it's a lot longer, but it's been four consecutive weekends without sports.

you know, four consecutive weeks without sports. No baseball, no NBA, no hockey. The hockey playoffs would have been starting this week, by the way, the regular season would have ended over the weekend and the playoffs would have been starting this week. And we didn't get March Madness, which was a big one, you know, for a lot of people. I'm wondering, is there any chance that some of you out there have figured out over these last four weekends,

that you don't need sports as much as you thought you needed them. You know, I'll be honest with you. I miss March Madness terribly. I really wanted to watch Maryland continue their season to see Anthony Cowan play more games, to see Stick Smith play more games, to see Maryland make a run. But, you know, I'm not like dying over, you know,

sports not being on every night. You know, I don't watch a lot of baseball this time a year anyway. I'm not a big regular season NBA, you know, every single night. I love the playoffs. I love the hockey playoffs. But I took calls on this, Tommy. There were a lot of people that said, you know, I'm doing other things. And I'm getting some things done.

And, man, you know, one of the things you realize is that watching sports and following sports is incredibly time consuming. It's really time consuming. But again, I mean, we've always said, at least I've always said. Well, you're not as much of a game watcher every night like a lot of people are. No, but one of the things about sports is you can invest your time, emotion, and energy in it. And in the end, realize it really doesn't mean anything. Yeah, well, that's true. Well, we know that anyway.

But that's one of the pleasures of it. So when it's gone, of course you're going to come to the conclusion that, hey, It's not that important. I mean, if you already know that and invest your emotion into it, because that, you know, you can exercise all those emotions without costing you anything. You could see, people, Tommy, a lot of people are just learning that for the first time. Well, I've always thought that. Well, I know that.

And I understand that, too. I understand, you know, where sports sort of ranks in the hierarchy of important things. A lot of people don't know that. And maybe they're just starting to figure it out. Like, man, you know, I would have been watching a game and we did this with the family or whatever it is. Or I'm working on the house or I'm reading this book or I'm, you know, online. I'm teaching myself a new language. I read somebody is doing that recently.

And I wonder whether or not this pandemic. which of course is, you know, nobody's fault unless you want to trace it back to the origin of this thing and fault the Chinese for it, which, you know, you can legitimately do. But what I'm saying is it's not the fault of these sports leagues or these players. But, you know, some people are realizing now they don't need the NBA or the major league baseball or hockey or even the March Madness. Now, you want it. But you may start consuming things a little bit differently when they do return. Now, I offer up one exception to this notion, and that is, if this were happening during the fall and football season, I would feel it.

Not having Sunday 1 o'clock games, football to follow, football to look forward to on the weekend. There is a scheduled rhythmic nature to football season that has been so habit-forming that it would be a much more. difficult habit to break. Initially, if this had happened then, yeah. But like if we get to September, you'll help, and there's no football, we're going to be used to it? You'll have already been programmed. Yeah.

I mean, and it's, I mean, you'll have already been trained to live without sports. Now, football's a different animal. I'll grant you that. It's a national religion. But the impact won't be as bad as if this happened. right in the beginning of football season. I don't know. There'd be far more with...

No doubt if it had happened right at the beginning. But I think if we get there and we haven't had sports and the golf majors are rescheduling right now, they're putting together a new schedule for the fall. Kevin, nobody watches golf. I'm talking about from my personal perspective. I love watching golf. And what I'm saying is that they're putting all that stuff together

and I'm looking forward to that. But if those weren't played, if those were played and football wasn't, I would still, I need football. I need that fall of getting excited about football season, you know, leading into cooler weather and leaves changing and Halloween and then holidays. And football is always a part of all of that. You know, it's really, it's really, I know there are some people out there,

but those people aren't listening to this podcast, so we don't really have to speak to them. But there are some people that have no idea that football's going on on Thanksgiving day or during the holidays. But for most of us, it's sort of become part of that whole portion of the calendar. I don't, that's going to be a tough one. I mean, hell, I remember when I was much younger, how I felt in 1982 when there was no NFL for seven consecutive weeks. That was painful. But at least there was college football on Saturdays. You know, if you've got no football, you know, starting in September, that is going to be, that's a tough one. The rest of this,

I think people are realizing, you know, I can live with some. A lot of you can't. A lot of you are really upset that you can't watch the, you know, Major League Baseball. And I really miss the tournament. But ultimately, we got through it. But you're right. There are segments of the population that you are very familiar with that I'm probably having a very difficult time living without it. Yeah.

There's some of them. I think it's also an age thing in a family dynamic situation. Like, you know, people that, you know, people that are alone, okay, who are big sports fans, and this is what their life really revolves around. It's got to be a struggle right now. Yeah, I think alone has to be a struggle no matter why. True, true. All right, some Redskins stuff before we go for the day.

You wanted to weigh in on what Cooley and I talked about for a big portion of the show on Friday, which is the DeAngelo Hall comments on the United. NFL network about Dwayne Haskins, where he was critical of Dwayne Haskins, and he essentially concluded his statement with his comments with, I think it's going to be really hard for Twain Haskins to be the starter next year with Kyle Allen there breathing down his neck. What did you think? Well, a couple of things. First of all, if the Antwera Hall is not on the Snyder payroll at all, is he?

No. Okay. Not that I know of. You think that has something to do with it? No. Okay. My second question is, I don't think he's right. I think Haskins will be the starter.

But I know that some people thought, well, this would be a disaster if this happened. And I said just the opposite. Are you kidding me? If you're a Redskins fan, this is the greatest news you could ever hear. The absolute greatest news. If Kyle Allen is the starter over Dwayne Haskins in the 2020 season, then that means the wicked witch, if not dead, is at least locked up. That means that Dan Snyder is not influencing that quarterback decision.

And I can't think of any single thing that would be more important to the organization, to the fans of this organization, then a clear signal that Dan Snyder is not in charge of those kind of decisions anymore. No matter how many times people say, oh, he's not as involved,

not as influential, you know, that right there, that's the Canary and the coal mine. If Kyle Allen is your starter, then Dan Snyder's on his yacht and he's not at Redskins Park. Well, you could have that. You could have that moment in two and a half weeks if they were to draft two at number two overall, you would have the

same reaction. But I don't, but I don't, yes, I do, but I don't think that's going to happen. I think it's, I think it's more likely that Kyle Allen would start, but I still don't think it's likely. I think that, again, I haven't, I'm not changed in my position. Blaine Haskins is going to be the starter, if and when they take the field again in an NFL game. You know, I think that personally, I think DeAngelo Hall is going to be wrong. I think he's going to be the starting quarterback. Dwayne Haskins is going to be the starting quarterback. I hold out the one exception, and that is NFL season, training camp, everything gets messed up.

You've got one week and you've got to be ready to play a game. And, you know, Kyle Allen's the only guy that really knows the offense and maybe he starts the opener. I don't know. I doubt that that's even going to happen. But I think Dwayne Haskins is going to be the starting quarterback. I mean, I think that for a number of reasons. First of all, I think he's better. I think he's more talented, even though I really like Kyle Allen.

Cooley doesn't. I actually really think Kyle Allen can be a starting quarterback in the NFL. But I think Dwayne is more talented. And I think Dwayne improved. And I just, I'm looking forward to seeing what Dwayne Haskins can do next year. But the number one reason I feel that way is I just don't think that Ron Rivera would be the head coach of the Washington Redskins if there was a, the possibility that Dwayne Haskins wasn't going to be the starting quarterback in 2020.

Now, I'm not saying that Rivera took the job and did what Gruden did, which is convinced Dan that he could make something out of RG3, and Rivera said, you know, I'm going to tell him what he wants to hear until I get the job, because I think Rivera would have had another job opportunity. I don't think Rivera needed to do that to get a job. I think Gruden did. So I think Rivera legitimately, and he said this, we had him as a first round guy at Carolina. I think he legitimately believes that Haskins can be the guy, and he's going to give him the opportunity. And I think that's what he told Snyder, is that I like Dwayne too. We liked him coming out.

We had a first round great on him. I don't think you overdrafted him. And I'm going to give him every opportunity to be the quarterback here for the next 10 years. Now, maybe he stopped short of guaranteeing it, but I think he got Snyder comfortable that he believes in Haskins. And I think that's why he has the job. I think that's why he was offered the job and why he has the job. Let's not get nuts here, okay? I don't think he would say, I don't think you overdrafted him.

The Redskins personnel people thought they overdrafted him. I know. But let me just throw something else out. You know, what would be really, like the next coach that runs into problems with Snyder needs to be really open in the moment. Now, you know, they risk getting fired, but, you know, I would imagine Rivera's deal is guaranteed. I can't imagine you're coming into this deal without a guaranteed.

I mean, Gruden's deal was guaranteed. So, you know, Rivera now, we're in a different time with the Redskins. If Rivera decided going through training camp, my God, I mean, Dwayne isn't even what I thought he was. And Kyle gives us a much better chance. I don't see Dwayne being a starting quarterback in this league. I'm starting Kyle Allen. And he goes to Snyder and says, I'm sorry. about this, but this is what gives you and me and the organization the best chance to win.

And if Snyder starts to push back, you know, Rivera should just go public with it. Because in this environment, if he went public with, I'm starting Kyle Allen. The owner's not happy with me at all. He's really, really pissed off at me. But we are starting Kyle Allen. And if something happens to me, you know why. You know, he could have. put Snyder into a position, you know, at this stage where he couldn't do anything about it. Think about that. Could Snyder, if Rivera came out and said that, do you think Snyder could actually fire him? I mean, there aren't many fans left, but whatever is left would be gone. I think he could. I think he could. I think, look, I think there'd be a lot of Dwayne Haskins fans

who would want to see Rivera fired. I think he could. Yeah, maybe, but not if it was put in terms of, you know, this is what the owner is pushing. Let me just also... Listen, you had with Shanahan, politically he thought he could handle Snyder. Gruden, I think part of the public comments about RG3 in his first year was his pushback. Yeah. His version of fighting back against the owner. But it was, it didn't go far enough, actually.

And it was scattershot. I think what you say, particularly with a coach like Rivera with his credentials, the possibility is there it could work. But I don't believe that it immunizes you from getting fired by Dan Snyder. So I had Sean Springs on the radio show yesterday. Most of you know this for those that don't. Sean's been a mentor to Dwayne Haskins since he was a young kid, like 12 years old. He's very much in the inner circle, friends with the family.

And, you know, I asked Sean about what DeAngelo Hall said, and he disagreed with some of it. But he said, he said, look, I'm very honest and direct with Dwayne in my conversations with him. And I've told him, if he doesn't show up and he doesn't work his ass off, he hasn't seen anything yet. Because if he's not good and the team isn't good, wait till he gets a load of the Trevor Lawrence sweepstakes conversation. You know, that's when really, you know, the pressure will come. And I was thinking about it because he said a couple of other things in the interview that spoke to, you know, at least based on his perspective, about how, you know, he's not a sycophant of Duanes. He's not there to tell him how great he is all the time. And I thought about what, you know, how important that would be.

And I have heard from the jump from people, you know, in the know, that Dwayne's much different than RG3. You know, they may both be sensitive to criticism and too much on social media, et cetera, the whole thing. But that Dwayne was not entitled. Dwayne isn't the guy that's going to, you know, essentially, you know, be, I guess grab on to the, and really embrace being the owner's favorite toy. That's what I've heard from the beginning time. You can choose to believe it or not. We know this, right? We know that Robert Griffin III was a guy that came in and had a group of people around him,

including family, that convinced him it was never his fault. None of it was his fault. He was surrounded by people that told him he walked on water, and that group grew to include Dan Snyder when the Redskins drafted him. And it became a challenge for coaches and teammates here in Washington. He was anointed, he was enabled, and he could do no wrong in the owner's eyes. and that became a major problem, not to mention the father's access to the locker room, the father's access to Snyder, the father trying to push Shanahan out and trying to get

Art Bryles hired, the father trying to tell Snyder that he shouldn't be anything but a drop-back quarterback. We know all of that. Turned out to be awful because players and coaches, they just, they were turned off by the whole thing. I have heard since the jump, that's not Dwayne, and that's not Dwayne's inner circle. I hope that's true, but Sean Springs would be an indication of, I think, a guy that's not going to be, you know, telling a guy like Haskins, you know, go straight to the owner.

You know, forget your coaches, go straight to the owner. I don't think that's happening. What number is Wayne Haskins again? What number is he? Yeah, he's number seven. Could you tell me what? Okay. Is that an important number?

I'm not familiar with it. And I know that that wasn't. Yeah, it was an important number. It wasn't Bobby Mitchell's number. It wasn't a Hall of Favor's number. No, no. I don't know. I'm optimistic about Haskins.

I hope they get a real training camp. I hope they get him ready to play. I want to see him start 16 games this year and I think it'll happen. Last thing Redskins related. the NFL and the Hall of Fame. They actually put together, together an all-decade team, and the 2010s All-Decade team came out, not one Redskin on it. That's the second straight decade of no Redskins being on the All-Decade team. And just so you know, like there are two quarterbacks, four running backs, four wide receivers. There are four offensive

tackles, you know, on the list, and Trent Williams wasn't one of them. Jason Peters, Tyron Smith, Joe Staley, Joe Thomas, all ahead of Trent Williams. No Ryan Carrigan on the linebackers, Chandler Jones, Luke Keakley, Khalil, Mac, Von Miller, Bobby Wagner, Patrick Willis. It's not like there's just one spot, but two straight decades of the Snyder era and not one Redskin all-decade player. Not a surprise. Nope. Not a surprise in the least. I mean, the lack of tax. You have to work hard. Well, no, I can't say that because there's other franchises that are even worse, probably. But, I mean, it really seems like you'd have to work hard to be this talentless for two decades. In the 80s, the Redskins had six players on the all-decade team for the 80s.

You know, let me just mention this to you. So I'll tell you who the six were of it than something that was surprising. So the six in the 1980s were Russ Grimm, Joe Jacoby, John Riggins, Dave Butts was an all-decade performer. Mike Nelms was an all-decade performer. And who am I forgetting? I'm forgetting somebody. Rigo?

Oh, Art Monk. Art Monk was number six. So it was Grim, Jacoby, Monk, Riggins, Butz, Mike Nelms, all on the 1980s. You know who the coaches were? in the 1980s all-decade team? Bill Walsh. Yeah.

And Chuck Knoll. Joe Gibbs. Now, the only thing I can think of is that they had to have one AFC and one NFC coach on the all-decade team. But Chuck Knoll did not win. He won the 1980s Super Bowl. It was the 79th season.

It didn't even, did not get to one Super Bowl in the 80s as the coach of the Steelers. Joe Gibbs went to three of them in the 1980s, all right, and won two of them. So obviously Joe Gibbs in the 1980s was a better coach than Chuck Knoll, who was a great coach, but his damage came in the 1970s when the Steelers were the team of the 70s. I'm assuming that they had to have an AFC coach and an NFC coach on there for some reason. I guess so. I mean, but people who know, like Kirk Cousin said, people who know, know when it comes to Joe Gibbs.

I love when you quote Kirk. You sound so smart when you quote Kirk Cousins. All right. What else you got? You got anything else? That's it, boss. That's it for me, too. Oh, you mentioned to me 33-year anniversary of Hagler Leonard was what? yesterday? I watched that close circuit at Cole Fieldhouse.

Uh-huh. And I still to this day believe that Marvin Hagler won that fight. Well, you know, you go and you read the scorecards of the media who covered it, and it was like almost divided down the middle. There were a lot of people, a lot of writers who had Leonard winning that fight. Yeah.

And a lot of them had a lot of them had Hagler winning the fight. Yeah. Like, here's what I always said. Who were you writing for at the time? I wasn't covering sports. Oh, you weren't covering sports. Yeah, of course. Yeah, in 1980s. For the Baltimore Sun. But I've had a lot of conversations with Ray over the years about it. Marvin Hagler was one of the most fearsome fighters of his era.

He was a middleweight, so Ray was moving up to fight a guy heavier than him. Right. Ray hadn't fought in what, three years, okay, and you can't knock that guy out? You can't take the decision away from the judges. If you can't do that, then you don't deserve to win. Well, that's ridiculous. You're fighting a guy who hasn't fought three years. Who cares?

You're fighting the same roles. If you win a decision, if you outpoint the guy over 15 rounds in the fight, actually that was one of the first, I may be wrong about this. Wasn't this one of the first going from 15 to 12-round championship fights? Am I right about that or was this a 15-round fight? Well, no, it was a 12-rounder because Ray wanted it to be a 12-rounder. Okay, but most championship fights in the 80s were still 15-round fights.

Yeah, yeah, it was the Ray Mancini and Dukukukim. That changed a lot of that. Right. But, yeah, one of the things that Ray said was 12 rounds and a special round. and a bigger rank to be able to move around it. I'm sorry, you hear in boxing all the time, you got to take the title from the champ, you know? So it's not just, you know, what happens.

Leonard was sort of a champ, too. I mean... No, my point is, it shouldn't have been that close. And if you lose a close fight like that to Ray Leonard, you've got only yourself to blame. It was a great fight. It really was a great fight. And the thing that I remember the most about that fight was what Leonard did at the end of each round. Like he could be dominated for the first two and a half minutes of the round, but he would get to like the final 15 seconds of each round. And he would just start throwing flurries, you know, and he looked super busy and looked like he was dominating at the end of each round.

think it was very influential in sort of the voting, you know, round by round back then. Do you remember that? Am I right about that or not? No, you're absolutely right about that. And I'm sure it was influential. What I remember about that was my favorite fighter of all time, Roberto Durant, had fought Hagler not a little bit earlier in the scheme of things. And fought Hagler really tough.

I mean, really gave Hagler a very. tough fight. And Ray Leonard was doing the commentary. And Duran came to the ropes at the end of the fight and said to Ray, you can beat this guy. Duran said that.

Yes. Wow. I've never heard that story before. Yeah. You can beat this guy. And then Haglerport, John Mugabe, he didn't look good. The beast. Yeah. And really did not look that good, which was really what convinced Ray

to go ahead and take the fight. I thought he was catching Hagler, you know, basically on the downside. Well, he may have been and Hagler never got over. He retired after that fight. That was it. He wanted a rematch. Ray didn't give him the rematch

right away, and then he retired. Then Ray wanted to rematch years later, and Hagler wanted no part of it. Yeah, Hagler, like, moved to Italy and ended up living there. I think maybe the rest of his life. I don't know. I don't know. I mean, God, how old is Marvin Hagler now? He's probably 35 during that fight, something like that,

so he's got to be in his mid-60s. Yeah, absolutely. You know, the Duran fight, I certainly remember the Duran fight, and I remember it was not the most exciting of fights between Hagler and Duran. Of course, the greatest three rounds in consecutive three. rounds, I think, in the history of the sport was his fight against Hearns. It's the best three-round, you know, physical war I've ever watched. And those that haven't watched it, just YouTube, Hearns, Agler, and just watch this thing. It only takes you, you know, it's a total of about 12 minutes, you know, the minute in between rounds, because it only went three rounds. But that was

unbelievable. And I always was sort of a Hearns fan, and I liked Hagler, too. I always gave Hurons a lot of credit for just he went for it man he he came out and he decided his only chance was to catch Hagler with one of those big right-hand Tommy Hurne's you know punches and he went for it and

it just didn't work it almost worked but it didn't work yeah I mean you know if you're if you're YouTube and fights and you want to watch a great fight and I've talked about this before it wasn't even a title fight it was a heavy way fight between George Foreman and

Ron Lyle. I think it went five round. Go on YouTube and watch that. Was Forman a champ? Was this after you'd beat in Frazier? No. No, this was not when he was a champ. There was no title at stake, but it's must watch. Foreman Lyle. I don't think I don't remember that one. I mean, I remember that, obviously I remember Foreman, and I remember Ron Lyle because didn't Ali beat Ron Lyle too? Yes, he did. Yeah. I'll go back and look for that. Here it is January 24th, 1976. In fact, Tommy, it was the fight before he won the title by knocking out Frazier. Down goes Frazier. Down goes Frazier. No, no. He won that fight. He'd be Fraser in 73. Oh, you're right. I'm sorry. This was a rematch with Frazier. Yes.

Rematch with Frazier. And he knocked Frazier out in the United States. He knocked Frazier out. in the fifth round of this fight. The first fight with Frazier was in Jamaica in 1973. Yeah, you got the, yeah. That's the down-goes-Frasier-Cosell-Famous call. Yes, it is. All right. Anything else?

That's it, buddy. Glad you're healthy. Thanks for listening, everybody, back tomorrow.