The Kevin Sheehan Show - Cooley Film On Forbes & Martin

Episode Date: May 3, 2023

Cooley and Kevin today with a Cooley "Film Breakdown" of Washington's top two picks in last week's draft, Emmanuel Forbes & Quan Martin. Kevin also talked Lakers-Warriors and had thoughts on the Washington Post story on the sale of the Commanders happening in "stages" and being "atypical".  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Cheyenne Show. He is Kevin. The show today will include Chris Cooley. He's coming up shortly. He did film breakdowns of Emmanuel Forbes and their second round pick,

Kwan Martin. So we'll get to Cooley in the next segment, and you'll hear his discussion of both of those players. And he'll do some of the other players, I think, for now. week. But coolly coming up in the next segment. The show today presented by My Booky. This weekend, the UFC bantamweight champion goes head to head with one of the most decorated combat athletes of all time in the main event at UFC 288. My bookie had the matchup between

Sejado and Sterling as near coin flip, but most of the early money came in on Sterling. If you're asking yourself why you should choose My Bookie over the competition, it's simple. They're going to give you the best bang for your buck, period. You can score huge wins on boosted odds with my bookie, with actually the MyBooky money bag, or you can take advantage of every momentum swing with in-match live betting. Sign up today, bet with house money. Just click on to the promo section and put my Kevin D.C. in the promo section to grab yourself a welcome bonus on your first deposit. Bet anything, anytime, anywhere with my bookie. Just a reminder to rate us and review us, especially on Apple and Spotify.

Big help when you do that. Following us is a huge help as well. On Apple, if you're listening to us on Apple Podcasts, you can follow us by hitting the follow button in the upper right-hand corner. On Spotify, it's about midway down the left-hand side of the show. By the way, from DND via the Apple Podcast Review, listen to the show from Cumberland, Maryland. Love the show. Can we please get Tim Legler on the show more to talk commanders and playoffs? Well, I'm going to try to get Tim on the show soon.

I actually talked to him the other night for a while. We were talking about the NBA playoffs and we were talking about the draft that Washington had just finished. and he promised me that he would be available. So we'll shoot probably for next week, maybe the end of this week. But yeah, I love Legler. I don't think anybody is better on the analysis of games than Legler. I've said this many times. There are so many NBA analysts on ESPN.

Legler's the best for me. One of the reasons I feel that way is that Legler's a coach. He played in the league obviously, but that we're a coach. You know, he played in the league, obviously, but that was a long time ago. But he has stayed in the game, and he coaches. And there's just a lot that's different now from when some of the guys who played the game played the game. Things are different. But I love Legler.

So look for him on a show soon. And typically we spend, he joked to me the other night. He said, I'll come on. But can we do at least more than five minutes on the NBA after doing nearly an hour on the commanders. And I said, well, that's your call. You're the one that wants to talk more about the football team than the NBA. Yeah, Tim is a huge skins fan, always has been, and still goes to most of the games, which is amazing. Don't forget to rate us, review us, and follow us on Apple, Spotify, and any other place that gives you an opportunity to do that. Speaking of Legler and the

NBA. Wow, what a game last night between the Warriors and the Lakers. Game one goes to L.A. 117 to 112. I mean, if Tommy stayed up to watch this game, I can hear him right now. I haven't talked to them. They're shooting too many threes. And yeah, Golden State shot 53-3-pointers. Made 21 of them, 39.6%. It's what kept him in the game. Look, I talked about this series, and I picked the Warriors in seven, but I said the key to the series would be Anthony Davis. If Anthony Davis is consistent, you know, at his best, which means super high level, like last night, where he scored 30 on 11 of 19 from the floor, 8 of 8 from the free throw line, and had 23 rebounds, and four block shots, then the Lakers aren't going to lose to the Warriors because they don't have anybody that can match up to Davis.

They're one-size guys, Kavana Luni, and he's a really exceptional player, but he is too slow-footed to guard Anthony Davis. But the thing with Davis is he gets hurt, he's inconsistent. He's capable in game two of throwing up, you know, 10 points and 7 rebounds. But if he plays like he did last night for at least five games, maybe the Warriors, could win one or two with him playing that way. But if he plays for five or six that way, I think the Lakers are going to win the series. I guess I'm not changing my mind.

My pick is still the Warriors. They have a championship pedigree, obviously. And we saw last night with them down 14. If you weren't watching the game, they were down 14 late in the fourth quarter. And they went on an incredible 14-to-nothing run over the final five-and-a-half minutes to tie the game at 112 on an impossible Curry three-pointer.

And by the time you got to that moment when Curry made the three that tied the game with about a minute and a half to go, you could see both teams were exhausted. The Lakers barely subbed in the fourth quarter. Golden State had the seventh game on Sunday at Sacramento, and it was like they were barely breathing coming across the finish line of that game. On the next possession, DeAngelo Russell, who played well, I thought he played really well for the Lakers, you know, got to the rim for an easy layup. It looked like, you know, the last three by the Warriors was like their last gasp. And then, so the Lakers ended up scoring the last five points of the game.

1-1-17-12. At 115-12, Golden State had an opportunity to tie, and Jordan Poole missed a 27-foot three-point shot. and he was being hammered for that shot attempt that it was too far. He should have gotten closer. I don't know, man. He had made a bunch of threes from length. And I think, you know, if he, you know, shows the ball on a shot fake and then gets inside the defender, I think the defense closes on him and maybe he doesn't have as much of a chance, maybe it sets up a pass to a clay or a step.

In the game last night, by the way, something happened that had never happened in a playoff game in NBA history. Three players from the same team made six three-pointers. Jordan Poole was six of 11. Steph Curry was six of 13. And Clay Thompson was six of 16. Incredible. Just an absolutely breathless and breathtaking game. It was really something else to watch. And if the series is like that and it goes six or seven games, it's going to be incredible. It didn't seem like the guys had a lot left. In the first game last night, the Knicks were in deep trouble against the heat without Jimmy Butler. They won the game. Man, is Spolstra a great coach. The fact that they were up in that game in the fourth quarter on the road in a game that the

Knicks had to have after losing game one, and the best player on the floor was out with the rolled ankle, Jimmy Butler, and they were life and death. with the heat there. That's a good sign for the heat. The Knicks are good. Jalen Brunson came up so big. So did Josh Hart, who played at Sidwell Friends here locally. I saw him play three or four times, at least in high school. And he had a really big time, two shots in the fourth quarter, corner threes for the Knicks that were big. So the Knicks win that game to even up that series at a game piece. I wanted to mention before we get to Cooley that Tommy and I, talked yesterday about what Mike Jones had told me on the radio show yesterday, about Washington

having expressed interest, according to people around the league, about moving up in the draft last Thursday night in the first round to the number seven spot, the Raider spot. And presumably it was to take Anthony Richardson. I told all of you with Tommy yesterday that Mike Jones had mentioned that to me on the radio show. And remember, that was, you know, There was some discussion about Washington's interest in Anthony Richardson when Albert Breer reported before the draft, or I think it was the day before the draft, that Marty Herney was very high and was advocating, was very high on Richardson and was advocating for Richardson in the building. Now, I told you that once that happened, I was going to get pushback and that, you know, the team would push back. and that the team would push back on it to a certain degree, or I would get pushed back from somebody that I talk to

that kind of knows what's going on with the team, and that they would deny that because they've got their quarterback room. It's Sam Howell and it's Jacoby Brouset. They don't need to look for another quarterback. I would have applauded it had they done it, and I applaud it if they were actually looking. But I did talk to somebody that I'll just say, you know,

as close to that, particular situation from a team's standpoint, and they said no chance were they going to trade up to number seven for Anthony Richardson or trade up to seven at all, that that was not the case. Now, what they didn't say is that they didn't say to somebody or put some, you know, feelers out there to try to generate, I don't know what. I mean, many of you thought this may have been a smokescreen to begin with. I don't know how them picking it 16 and, you know, having it out there that they're interested in moving up would help them at all. But anyway, I wanted to update that part of what I had gotten from somebody unsolicited after the show yesterday.

One more thing before we get to Cooley. So Mark Maskey and Nikki Javala had a story last night in The Washington Post titled NFL Isles. talking with Daniel Snyder reps, sale approval could come in stages. I'm going to read from this story. The NFL is engaged in discussions with representatives of the Washington commanders and owner Daniel Snyder, and it appears increasingly probable the next step in approving Snyder's pending sale of the commanders to Josh Harris will be a conditional approval that is atypical in such transactions, three people with direct knowledge of the NFL's and her workings in the sale process said, such a step could come as soon as this month. Conditional approval, that's an

atypical step. That's the next one. Conditional approval means that it's, you know, it's a condition that some sort of condition needs to be met before there is total approval. So let me continue to read from this story. Final ratification of Harris's tentative $6.05 billion deal to purchase the commanders would be contingent upon several issues being resolved, according to those people who spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the confidentiality of the sale and the approval process. They cautioned that the timing of a ratification process arriving in such stages is fluid and depends largely on the progress of the discussions with Snyder's representatives.

Nonetheless, such conditional approval would represent a significant step toward Harris taking control the team and Snyder exiting the NFL. A little bit more from this story. The sale is taking place with Snyder and the commanders being investigated by the NFL for a second time. Snyder and the team are also facing a federal investigation in the Eastern District of Virginia. The commanders reached settlements with attorneys general of DC and Maryland over allegations of improperly withholding deposits from ticket holders without admitting to the allegations. The Attorney General in Virginia also is

investigating the team. The NFL's current investigation of Snyder and the commanders is being conducted by attorney Mary Joe White. You know, we know the Mary Joe White investigation. Snyder declined to meet with White, and this was a report the Post had back in March. White was expected to make at least one more attempt before completing her investigation to interview Snyder, according to people in the know. NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell said the league will release White's findings publicly, even if Snyder sells the team. It is not known to what extent the Harris group might indemnify Snyder against legal liability and costs as part of a tentative sale agreement.

Since February, multiple people with direct knowledge of the league's interworkings have said Snyder was seeking such indemnification from a buyer or from the league and other owners. The commander said in February that such depictions were inaccurate. So what does all of this mean? I mentioned last week that as of now, the process has been called awkward, unusual, in this story, atypical. And the reason the process of selling this team is unusual, awkward, and atypical is Snyder. It's Dan. And in my opinion, based on the people that I have talked to, there is no issue with Harris and the league.

there is no issue really with Harris and Snyder. Right now, the bump in the road, I won't call it a bottleneck as I did last week. The bump in the road is that Snyder and the league have to get things resolved, as this story said, and as a story last week said. What needs to be resolved? Well, you know, there is mention of the Mary Joe White investigation. Does Snyder want the league to commit to not putting out the results of the Mary Joe White investigation before he moves on? he might want that.

Will the league actually agree not to put it out since he won't be the owner of the team? I don't think so. They have made it very clear that they will be transparent with that report. Is there something else that he's concerned with? Is he even concerned about the Mary Joe White investigation? Does he want total indemnification from any kind of legal cost or legal situation involving the actual league with concussion issues or, you know, the Brian Flores stuff or anything or, you know, some of the stuff that's still hanging out there on their team. That's what's right now, you know, being discussed and I guess

perhaps negotiated. Remember, we had one league owner that said, I think, to Mark Maskey, he wants indemnification. We should be getting indemnification from him. I think Snyder is looking for one last pound of flesh on his way out because he doesn't want to go. He doesn't have a choice, but he doesn't really want to go. And, you know, he's got to go for a lot of reasons, financial. I mean, there's no turning back now. If he were to turn back now, first of all, he might get voted out. Secondly, the bottom line is there would be nobody at the games next year if Snyder still own the team. I mean, Jason Wright is out there right now. He was on CNBC the other day, talking about how glorious it is now for their business that Snyder's gone.

Like, he's really publicly talking about how great it is that Snyder sold this team for the business of the team. He's not wrong. I'm a little bit surprised that he's so gleeful in his discussion of it. I'm sure Dan and Tanya aren't thrilled, but whatever. He's not lying. I don't know how much better it is for business. He talked about sweet sales being up significantly just on the news that Snyder. had sold. I don't know what that means. Does that mean they haven't leased a suite in four years and they leased two of them or one of them? I don't know. But I wouldn't be concerned. I went through this story because this is where we are. It may not get fully done until sometime this summer. You know, it may get this, you know, as the post is laying out in stages, you know, this conditional

approval and then maybe a finance committee approval. The finance committee, I think, meets a week from today. And then, you know, they'll wait for the Dan issues to get resolved. Hopefully they will. And then they'll send it to league vote. But awkward, unusual, atypical. I mean, it was predictable with Snyder selling the team. Chris Cooley next right after these words from a few of our sponsors.

Cooley is with us today. He did some film breakdown of Emmanuel Forbes and Kwan Martin, Washington's first two selections in advance. Thank you for doing this. I know you are busy these days, so we all appreciate it. Thank you so much. How are you? Pretty good, Kev. Don't get your hopes up too much. It's not like I watched 22 hours of film. Well, I mean, if it's just two hours of film, that's plenty. I was just saying it. I always find it interesting when you watch DBs play on film anyways. And where you grade and evaluate,

it's one of the toughest positions, in my opinion, to evaluate when you don't know the scheme or the system or how they're passing coverages or what they're moving with coverages. You know what I mean? You can evaluate the fluidity of guys, but you can sit and say, man, this guy, he guesses and he does things where you can get beat deep, and the answer to that could be,

well, this defense is playing him up, and they got help over the top. You know, he's jumping something because he's got help inside. So I think it's interesting with dv's, and it's also, like, a good DB,

you're going to evaluate, like, four throws at him the entire game. Like, cool. They didn't, they didn't throw at him. It must be good. So, I don't know, I think it's an interesting position.

It's not. an exciting position to watch. But when you get the right dudes there, it's a big deal. I have thought, and maybe it's because this is something that you've told me before, I don't know. I've always felt like defensive backs and offensive linemen, for people that are just fans, it's the hardest area to evaluate. First of all, offensive line play is, you know, there are five of them.

You don't know what their responsibilities are unless you really played the game. and played the position or were around the game and around the position, you don't know really good technique versus bad technique. And with DBs, like you said, so much of it is, like when you watch a game, it's like you've taught us in the past. Like, yeah, it looked like he got beat, but actually that wasn't his responsibility. He had underneath the safety had deep coverage, or whatever it is. And unless you really know what the responsibility is, it's kind of hard to evaluate. But you know this scheme Washington plays, you know, heavier on zone, heavier on, you know, sub-packages with five D-Bs, one of them playing in the boxes, that Buffalo

Nickel playing a lot of zone match. So tell us what you think about Forbes, and then we'll do Juan Martin after that. I know you've got two guys done. Yeah, I like Forbes a lot. First of all, if you really want to start thinking about evaluating winning football games changing football games take a dude that has the most pick sixes in fbs history like

you know ah man he is going to struggle a little bit when it comes up when it comes it's coming up and tackling running backs and he's going to struggle a little bit when it comes to getting off some of the blocks but you know he has a pick six every third week like okay well they're straight off to dude

and there's one thing like you can be technically sound in a lot of ways you can be good in a lot of ways but you're not a playmaker and that's that changes things completely

it's a dynamic change when a dude is a playmaker he has that innate instinct to make big plays and that's one thing that you see and is immediately evident with four Forbes is all these big-time picks.

Now, a lot of them, when you watch, if you go watch the highlight film, they're screen. Like, he's jumping the receiver screen. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. He's got, like, he's pre-snap, he's seen something. He has good instincts.

He understands it. And he's jumping at flip screen. And when you jump a flip screen, there's nobody there. You're out in space, and there's nobody there. So the thing I look at too and you see Forbes is like, man, his return skills, returnability is awesome. Yeah, he came around 50 yards with nobody around him damn good.

He's pretty fast. You know what I mean? Like he had a pick six where the receiver kicked the ball up in the air. Maybe two dudes and was gone and you're like, they are good return skills. Yeah, right. There were a couple of those. Yeah. If he returns a punt and it takes it to the house and like spin moves twice and stiff

and stuff, yeah, then you like, wow, return skills. But that said, I do really like his playmaking skill skills. And I like his ability to play on the other side of a lot of scripts. So, I mean, I like, a couple things. Athleticism, what are you going to, a 4-3-something? Yeah, 4-35, I think. So he's got unbelievable speed. I mean, 4-3 is super-duper fast.

That's obviously impressive. He's not big. I'll tell you that. He's listed at 166 is what he weighed in with the combine. That's been the one knock, is that he weighed in at the combine at 166 pounds, the lowest for any cornerback taken in the first round since 2000. He's 6-1.

The thing with that is, is it really that hard to get the dude some preacine and peanut butter and jelly sandwiches? Like, I mean, is metabolism so unbelievably high that we can't put 15 pounds on him in a year? I'm sure Mississippi State, anybody that coach theirs listening to this, and they're like, yeah, you can't. You can't do it, coo-leet. He's not going to gain any weight. We tried that for four years. three years. He came out of year of him. But he'll struggle

some. It's not like he's not physical. He can play physical. But there are times, like, he knows where he to fit in. If he can create an open shot at a ball carrier, he'll go take it. And he'll go take it at the legs. He'll dive in there, and he'll straight line to it. But

when there's dude coming at him, he's like, yeah, no, I'm going to make sure that this doesn't get past me. Like, he did make a business. business decision, some of the run game stuff. Again, I don't go crazy with caring about that. What's, what is the, you watched him, and I saw the same thing. He's a willing tackler.

He's not a bad tackler. He's not fearful. He never got hurt in the SEC against some big backs and big receivers. Is there like a magic number that should be the least amount that a corner of back should weigh? I don't think so. 160. 166? Is that pretty good number? I mean...

65. Let's put it at 165. Let's give him some leeway. Yeah, we'll give him a little leeway. But the thing is, the thing that makes it tough when it gets to the next level is not just making some of the tackles. it's that you don't have receivers very often that weigh 175 or 108 the receivers are bigger then you start getting these dudes out in space that can block it and it doesn't have a great block should ability

when dudes get their hands on him he's getting blocked they block him now he has a good avoid but I wouldn't say he's just out there yanking dudes around shed and block but he's got to avoid block So it only gets harder because it's such a demand for receivers to block in the NFL. And they will. And he's going to get blocked. And he's going to have to find a way to get off some of those things.

Again, I don't take that as like a truth. It's a negative, but it doesn't – it's not a deal breaker for me. I'd much rather have a guy that can cover than the guy that can shed block. It's just one of the things you know. Right. The positives. Kevin, you mentioned, that I mentioned, you just don't get playmakers, and you don't. It's one of the hardest traits to find, in my opinion, especially on defense, and he is one.

But it's because he has really good instincts. He sees things really well, and he jumps, throws really well. And it's not just the underneath throws. And, again, if you watch his highlights, like his picks are not just break on ball. on a post downfield. I mean, there's some bounce around, kick a ball around picks here and there. Right. So it's not 14 stud interceptions.

But he may play. He's there in the right place at that time. And that's because he's instinctual. And his pre-snap recognition seems to be really good. His off-zone coverage, I really like. I think he plays with good hips and he plays with good vision to the quarterback and is able to jump things when the quarterback turns. to make a read or throw to the receiver

that Forbes is working on. I think he's capable of jumping stuff in that fashion. Then when you talk about all the things he jumps, though, I'm sitting here thinking as an offensive guy. Like, okay, well, he's going to jump hitch after hitch after hitch.

And so we're going to double move him to death. Right. And, yeah, there's some potential that he overcommits to things. sure. There's some stuff I'd attack him deeper vertically down the field.

Now, his recovery speed's pretty good, but he wants, he's waiting for that breakpoint at five yards. He's waiting for a breakpoint at 10 yards, and he is not, like, he is committed to jumping and attacking a throw at certain breakpoints. And then instead of just staying in a back pedal, he's going to have to turn and run, and that's what he does. it's just turn and run speed's good my last concern with Forbes though

is on some of the turn and run stuff or when they pass a break point and I think you understand what I mean like there's 15 routes

in a route three that break it five yards there's a bunch of them that break at 8 12 to 14 is another very common route

breaking point like low level throws medium level throws and deep throws and those break points do you have a sense for that

right It's not, you know, get in trouble with it, but where I think he can get in trouble in the NFL, and this is off every DB. He gets super handsy. Like, you can't touch him, guy. It's super handy. And so you'll potentially get some defensive holding stuff

where he's handy and grabby. But that's it. I mean, as far as the guy that can just run, cover, play outside. Oh, he can press. I do like him and press. Even for a smaller guy, I like him in press. He can press. He can run. He's got good hips. He can cover. He's an outside guy. He is an outside guy, right? That's obvious. He's not, he's not a slot corner. I don't think so. I think he's an outside guy right now. It'll be interesting what they do. I mean, what do you go think? Think, Juse is CB1, Forbes is CB2?

or do you just stay one side? I mean, they like to stay on one side a lot, even though they've done some things where guys have moved around. Well, I think the interesting thing will be, you know, if you think, and I agree with you, that Forbes is an outside guy, is Fuller or St. Juice, the leading candidate to kind of move inside and cover the slot?

They've both done it. I mean, the decision when they signed William Jackson was to have St. Juice do it last, you know, before they got rid of Jackson. And then they moved St. Juice, who's six foot three, to the outside. And, you know, they used Danny Johnson and they used, you know, other people, Bobby McCain and others, you know, on the slot. I mean, Fuller did it, obviously, back in 2017, before he left to go to Kansas City. But I mentioned this to somebody the other day, and I'm wondering what you think.

Fuller's entering a contract year. Do you think he wants to be, you know, a free agent at the end of next year as a guy, who played in the slot all year or a guy who was successful on the outside? You still have to be successful on the outside. Look at last year, and there's not a ton of games there where I would think it was great success. I thought he struggled quite a bit on the outside last year. My point is if you're trying to maximize your value,

I mean, you'd rather if you played, I mean, outside corners that can really man up and play, you know, on the outside get paid more typically. than slot guys do. But anyway. No, it's true. It's actually, it is true, and it's actually really interesting. Don't you get the sense? Yeah, we want to make sure we don't give the big-time receiver the big-time play,

and, you know, probably half the teams have one of those dudes. But don't you want to cover inside? It's weird that it's not as important, if that making it. Right. Well, I mean, it's... I was thinking about that. thing. I mean,

we're going to talk about Martin and, like, oh, versatility playing tight. You know? Yeah. Well, I mean, that's, if he's taking Bobby McCain's spot, maybe that's what will end up happening.

But I have a couple of questions. Are you done with Forbes, or do you have more before I get to a couple of questions? I just don't, I know they wanted that guy. I know that it wasn't Gonzalez, that they like. Gonzalez was higher, I think, on a couple of people's boards. I don't really

care that much about that. If you know you're going outside corner and you like one of them more, like, I don't, it's hard to say when Forbes would have went. But they, did you think it was early? Are you asking me? Yeah. No. I think that, I mean, I liked Gonzalez a lot. I liked him more than the guy Witherspoon, who was the first corner taken at number five. I didn't think Gonzalez would be there. So when they were both on the clock, I was, you know, I kind of thought that they would go Forbes. And I really liked watching Forbes before the draft. But again, like what you just said, to me, it's like they understand what they want to do.

They understand what they need. They've done the interviews. They know the players. And I think what you've spoken to, too, is something. that Smoot said on Friday's podcast is that this guy really studies. He's really a student of the game. You can see that with the way he plays, the way he sniff things out. He understands routes, like you said, and route combinations.

And look, this was a team that was 26th and takeaways last year, 28th and interceptions. And if they're not sure they're going to have a truly dynamic offense again, which they didn't have last year, they need the defense to be as good as it was, but it needs to be a defense that helps score. And Forbes is that guy. He was that guy out of all the corners. He's the playmaker.

He's the DeAngelo Hall of playmakers. Like, I was going to ask you specifically about Dee Hall because you played with him, what's it like when you have a guy on defense? I mean, you're not a defensive player, but when you know there's a guy out there, it's capable of multiple picks and even a score in a game. Because they really haven't had that.

Fuller's, you know, Fuller scored last year, but they really haven't had that. No, they haven't had it. DeHall had it early when he came to Washington. They had it coming out of college. He had it in Atlanta. He had the four-pick game against Chicago.

Yeah. It wasn't Dion. I like D-Hall, though. He's a heck of a player It's funny when you see it And I mean We've talked about it with different guys out Over the last 10 years now in it

You just You watch him make A couple plays And then all of a sudden You're like Wow this dude has like three picks And three weeks And I feel like the guys

I feel like they get on a roll Don't you I almost feel like it's just a confidence They And that's what But that's what Forbes has Is he's jumping routes He's aggressive

He's studying, taking risks. You can't make plays as a DB without taking risks. There are very few guys that can just play it that pure, especially with the rules the way they are where you can't be hands-on and you can't grab or you can't pull. You got to take risks to make plays. So I think you've got to play with a lot of confidence to take those risks. And that's what I see with Forbes.

That's the thing I like about him the most. Playmaker takes risk. Dee Hall, by the way, you know, he got here in 2008. In Washington, from the time he arrived in Washington and started to play in Washington, over basically five and a half years, he had 23 interceptions, three returned for touchdown. He also had two fumbles returned for touchdown. And then, you know, he was 31 and he stopped playing, got injured, and he just didn't, he only played like a total of 13 or 14.

more games over the final four years of his career. Well, the last one was like this, when he played safety against Seattle. Remember, and he returned a punt? Remember in that game? He returned to punt, too? Yeah. But, I mean, they haven't had that kind of DB. I mean, Sean was obviously that way. But, wow, I didn't even realize.

You know what's funny? What? Yeah, because you mentioned D. Hall. Yeah, but Sean. It really helps when you have that guy with a guy. good defense. Yeah, of course. And they have a good defense.

And they have a good defense. And so when you're, when I was playing with D. Hall did not have an excellent defense. No. I mean, we did the first, when Sean was there, in 2005, it was an excellent defense. Greg Williams, yeah. But I don't,

with Greg Williams, I don't know if we ever had that excellent defense. It's funny is if you're giving up 20 points a game, two turnovers, change the game immediately. Completely entirely changing games. When you're holding them to pawn, when you're forcing them to pawn, and you're playing some field position, and you get turnovers.

But give up 31, and two turnovers is like, I mean, we could think you score. Like, yeah, you have a good defense. That guy is huge. The playmaker is big. Yeah, I mean. We didn't have that. I think that's why I probably don't have this fast recall of DeAngelo Hall's 23 interception.

Look, do you know the game? because we turned it out. We didn't have a great offense half the time. So he probably had half the pitch, we probably went three and out. Well, the game that he had four interceptions in against the Bears, you guys won that game 17 to 14. And he had four interceptions. I actually had a first down reception at the end of the game to feel it.

And it was his pick six. He had a 92-yard interception return. I don't know if that was his third or fourth or whatever that ended up winning the game. So you guys only scored 10 points on offense. They were really good on defense, Jeff. Huh? They were really good on defense. Who, the bears were?

They probably weren't. I have no idea. I don't remember either. All right, so overall, you like Forbes because he's a playmaker, and I think that's what everybody kind of thinks. You see him on the outside. By the way, the question or the comment that I made you didn't respond to, and maybe it was my fault. but do you agree that DBs and then the offensive line in particular are the toughest positions to evaluate?

It's funny. I don't think offensive line's that tough. You don't, but for us. I don't, but for you, I think receiver is tough. I think anything on the outside is tough without knowing what you're trying to do, trying to accomplish. like offensive, here's my offensive line is really most, to the most part of these. Like on a team that double teams, you're just doing math, and you've got to figure out

what double teams go to who. But they're like, there's two for this one and two for this one, and we're going to cut off the back side with the last one. So what double team went where? Like, other little did they get movement on the double team? The pass protection stuff can be a little bit tricky at times. I don't know.

Yeah, here's why it's, Here's why it's probably the hardest. Because don't give the shit when they're watching football when you're 15 years old or 14-year-old and you don't play offensive life. No cares. No one wants to hear Chris Collinsworth be like, wow, see, look at the footwork, the guard had here.

So really, like, set up Collinsworth. No cares about the line play. And it's got to be like a double pancake for me to give two crafts about what the linemen does. Well, I'm watching a game on TV. man we've got to be we've got to watch this guard defensive tackle matchup it's going to be exhilarating no it's probably boring i would guess for a lot of people it's not for me all right let's uh let's talk about kwan martin right after these words from a few of our sponsors

all right cooley is with us uh he just broke down emmanuel forbes that selection on friday night number 47 overall in the second round they took kwan martin Jartavius is his first name. They call him Kwan Martin out of Illinois, kind of a corner slash safety. What did you make of him? Why do they call him Kwan? I don't know. I have no idea. Sometimes I call you Kavv because your first name's Kevin, and I just shorten it.

Right. I feel like it makes sense. I don't understand where Kwan can go. Well, we'll find out. We actually have a friend who has a little boy, and I think his name's like, it doesn't even matter. His name's like Steve, but everyone, everyone calls him Ziggy. They all call him Ziggy.

They all call him Ziggy. Oh, okay. Well, I mean, you know, they're nicknames. They're nicknames. I know. I know. Yeah.

All right. So what did, what did you make of Kwan? Old Kwan. Tortavius. Did you, so, did you see he jumped a 44-inch vertical? Yeah, I know. Yeah, his vertical is 44 and his broad jump at the combine with something ridiculous too.

Yeah, he's got some big ups. Think he can't even think he can't even be. Maybe with, like, one-handed. With a smaller hole. Do you know high 44 inches put you over the rim? I know, 44's ridiculous. I used to be able to dunk. I used to have at least a 34-inch vertical.

I have a one-inch vertical right now. I could dunk. I high-jumped my senior year in high school. What was the last year you could dunk? I mean, I was probably in my late 20s, early 30s. Before I started to really gain weight, whenever that was, when I was $600, when I was $6.3 and a buck 85, that's when I could dunk and I didn't have back issues.

Although I started to develop back issues and as you know, because you've been there when I've had back issues and talked about back issues with famous people. Once that started and I started to have lower back issues, that was it. And then once I think once I got past like 200 pounds, that was it. Because it wasn't healthy weight. One muscle. No, it's harder. when you carry that weight. All right.

Kwan. Kwan. You're thrilled about Kwan. Is this your favorite pick of the draft or what? Like, he's just your favorite pick of the draft or what? I'm saying it. I'm going to shuffle in my papers. I don't know anything about Kwan.

I watched the highlight reel of Kwan. He looked like he could play a little bit. Forbes, I remember very much, and watching him play, and I remember the kind of playmaker he was. So I kind of wanted him even before the draft if they were going to draft a DB. And they were hell-bent, I think, on drafting a DB. Their first two picks were DBs.

So I only care about what you think about Kwan. That makes me really happy. I mean, Juan Martin is a guy that played a pun at Illinois. Right. Like all over the place. He played safety a lot as a sophomore. He played Star, Nickel, Corner. throughout his last couple years, he moves around wherever they need him.

He makes place for him wherever they need him. He's played a ton. He's one of those guys that played a lot as a freshman, played a lot every single year. He's a guy that might be a safety, the more I watch him. Yeah, I think that's what they're thinking. Yeah, no, but it's really interesting because reading a few things on Martin and you read like

you know it'll be team specific on on where they want to play him and where they want to fit him and it goes back like the Antonio Gibson thing when he was drafted and you're like okay well where are we going to

are you taking a guy in the second round just because you think he's going to be good somewhere or do you have a role for him right so I like this pick and I like a lot about Kwan if there's an actual role for him. If in their mind they're like,

this is where this dude plays, we're not bringing him in to see if he can play a cornerback or star nickel. And then if he can't, then slowly roll him into safety. It's not Brandon Sheriff, who we're going to draft as a tackle. But, oh, I mean, right away, now we can't.

But, you know, ultimately we knew maybe it probably was a guard. Yeah. You don't take those guys in the first. second and most times the third round. You take starters that could be starters that year because you have a position that you know they can fill. Yeah, they have an idea for him. So they have an idea for him. I think they could play him at safety and I would like him at safety. The reason I like him at safety, I think, and he's fast. I mean, he's a 4-4 guy with huge vertical,

but he's got really great hips in transition and he's got a really great range when he's moving across the field and moving with some depth. So his what you'd call like redline to redline speed for safety, imaginary painted on redline five yards from the side line. His redline to redline transition speeds really good and he's really, really fluid and tips. So through the middle of the field, he could be in a straight back pedal and his turn and pivot to run red line to red line is exceptional athletic transition, very, very good hips.

I think he's a good block shutter. I think he's got a great downhill approach to run stopping. Screens, making tackles on the other side of the ball. There was Ken Fuller that used to do that all the time, right? Yeah, Fuller. Fuller has, yeah, definitely. It is funny, though, like, the difference between a first round and second-round picks, if you just want to look at screens,

Stavis Martin actually makes a ton of TFLs on the other side of the ball on some of the screens. Emmanuel Forbes picks them off and takes them to that. Right. Yeah, Martin makes tackles and forces fumbles. And he's able to find the ball in the air wherever it is. And when it's bouncing around, it somehow seems to end to the dam. Right. I think he's physical players.

You can see a lot with Martin and real physical approach, fearless. Like a straight line approach to the ball, he will come out like a bullet. So impressive there. I think he's got good ball reaction. He's able to undercut routes. I think he's a guy that could play in the slot, and they do that,

and they did that the last couple years where they had three safeties on the field. I think he's a guy that could come in and play nickel for you some or in a dime package. I think he could play down, no problem. And be a slot player. I think he could be a single-eye safety. A lot of ideas with class.

but yeah to me good range really really good hips physical player can shed blocks and and pretty good reaction to ball in the air negatives uh

man he struggled a little bit when he gets beat like when he's beat over the top even talk about flipping hips he's not making up a ton of feet and I saw it four or five times and sometimes I think about it like not sometimes this time I thought about it

like when you watch a little kid running for a ball and their arms are in the air the entire time. If he just run, you'll get there fast. I know if he's not up, he's not like arms in the air running, but there's something he's doing, he's not running fast when he's beat. It's like he's looking for something or like, is there a ball coming? Like, no, just run and catch up. You're going to have to run a fast.

You can't get up. Yeah. So there's something lacking, especially when he's outside on vertical stuff down the field. But my question would be is if you were. of single high safety, does he track it and understand where the ball is really well if he's got to run and find it? Would be a question. I didn't love him in tight press situations.

I didn't love his hands in tight press situations. I don't love his ability to a mirror a route concept. Like I don't think he's a mirror corner. None of these things put him on the outside. But one thing I'm sure he's not outside corn. No. So I wrote any outside option. about 20 minutes in

and then I wrote next to it. No. He's not right now, an outside option guy. And I didn't really read, like, after I watched it, I kind of go back and read it, and I was like, yeah, no, I can see. Like, you could play Dasty.

I see that. I think he's Bobby McCain's replacement. I think that's how they envision him. I think, you know, he covers the slot. He plays in the box a lot. You know, he's, a lot. There's a lot of zone coverage with the 5 dBs in their sub-packages. And, you know, I actually, and I think I'm alone on this,

I thought Bobby McCain was really exactly what they liked. I mean, obviously they let him go and he's with the Giants now, but I thought he was a good tackler at times. I thought he was really anticipated well. I thought he covered the slot pretty well. I thought he tackled well. I thought in the box as a run stopper, he was really active, not huge by any stretch.

but I think that's what they saw in Martin, and they needed a replacement for McCain. I think you're right. I think you got, I think you hit the nail right on the head. I don't think that was a big nail. The transition as far as speed goes, it wasn't a big nail, you're right?

It was small. It took you some work. You've been practiced. It was actually, it was a big nail. It was very obvious. The nail was very obvious and easy to hit. Small would indicate that it would. is, you know, harder to come up with that.

No, but I think McCain isn't there. McCain was a guy that I know Del Rio liked, and they got a guy that kind of looks like Bobby McCain when you watch him on tape. I thought they should have just taken quarterback. Make it exciting. Dick Levis. He's the one that drives.

Yeah, they really, what do you think got him? The fact that he wasn't great with his teammates? I don't know. I think all that stuff is the stuff we don't know and that's so important. I think it helps. By the way, I think it helps a lot of players. Like the next guy I'm going to ask you to look at, the third round pick, which, Ricky Stromberg, the center out of Arkansas, you know, a lot of people are like, oh, they way overdrafted him. But I think, you know, they're the ones that sit down and they know what they're getting in the guy. And in some cases, these interviews really hurt players.

And in other instances, it really elevates players. like, oh, I want him as a part of this team. You know, he can play the position and he's coachable. I think there's a lot of that going on now. What do you think? I think there's always been a lot of that going on. And I should never, I shouldn't have any problem with it because that's what Joe did when I was drafted.

Although I still thought I was going to be drafted by the third round. So I don't think I was like a huge stretch. I don't know if I'd give away a second for a tight end. What did Joe seeing you? What did Joe seeing you in that interview that made him want you? I think it was that he wanted what I was as an H-back. I did what I did in the NFL at Utah State. So I moved around.

I motioned that Joe saw Clint Didier. So I think that's what he wanted. But to answer your question about Ricky Stromberg, who sounds like the coach of the North Carolina Tar Hill's women's the softball team

but that's Ricky Straussberg so I got confused for a second I don't think you reach as far as position in the draft if he's a way later pick

I don't think you reach till the fourth round I think or because you get to all those late third round picks right And the extra third round picks. And that's where you start to feel.

I think anything before you get to the comp picks has quite a bit of value. Well, that was a comp. So you draft. Yeah. That was the Brandon Sheriff's compic. Yeah. At the end of the third round. So, I mean, once you get to the end of the third round, the compic, you're fine.

Sorry, I didn't watch. I just saw the draft. I didn't see the, I didn't watch Friday night. Did you watch the, did you watch the, did you watch the, did you watch the, you watch the, Friday night. Yeah, I watched a lot of it. We had shitty weather here the entire weekend. By the way, I am looking at your draft profile. I don't know that I've ever looked at this before. Your 2004 draft profile, your pro-day results and your Combine results. So I'm going to ask you, I'm going to ask you a couple of questions. Do you know what your vertical jump was at the Combine?

33 and a half 33 Do you know what it was on your pro day? 35 something 35 and a half You had to look It's no Kwan Martin That's for sure

But 35 and a half I can tell you What Vertical's a good vertical It is a good It is a good vertical Yeah I could tell you why

My combine steps Worse than my pro day I think you've told you this story Yeah What happened again My agent thought that people were really going to think that I needed to be able to be a blocking tight end and that at 245 or 248 I wasn't big enough to do that

and I wasn't physical enough to do that. And so he's like, what we're going to do is we're just going to sodium load before you go to the combine. I mean, you'll be so strong. And I was, I was really strong before I went to the combine. But I weighed about 252. And I showed up, like, so much salt for three days before the combine. And I showed up like a fucking believe. balloon.

Like, we'll find my picture on the combine and just like, I couldn't move. But the salt wouldn't leave me. Well, it says you, it says you weighed 265. I wait in at 265. Yeah, that's what it says. 265. I know. My pro date, I weighed 246.

We put two and a half, we tape two and a half down weight to the inner, my inner thighs because my strengths coach, you thought it was like, they're going to think it's super weird that your 20 pounds left three weeks later. I know, but so we take an extra five pounds to be inside of my size. Did you really? Yeah. When you stepped on the scale?

Yeah, because it says your pro day you weighed in at 265 also. No, that was wrong. That's wrong. Do you know what your 40? Do you know what your 40 time was, Combine versus Pro Day? My pro day was like 4-6-8. It says 474 here. That might be true.

My Combine was 4-8. My Pro-Day was better than that. Like, at least a few people had me in the 4-6th. I remember that. Yeah, your 40 at the Combine was 4-8-1. 4-80. Yeah. You know how many...

I know how many 225-pound bench reps you did at the Combine? I had like 23. 22, 22, 23, 24. 22, yeah. That was a bad showing for me. I was up to like 25. But Gibbs loved the way you... Gibbs saw you as a perfect fit as an H-back.

Team too, yeah. That's what I was always told. Because it was Sean, or it was Kellynne Winslow or me, and then Gibbs was super frustrated as they were getting in a third round. I've been told this story. And then they traded up,

and everyone was like, See, you got your H-back. We got him for you. You got your H-back, Joe. Well, you know the story about Winslow and Sean, right? It's the Clinton Portis story. Portis said that, you know, he had just gotten there in the trade for Champ Bailey. And Joe was hell-bent on drafting Kellynne-Winslow Jr.

The organization was. And they liked Sean Taylor and Clinton got wind of it and went to, Joe and said, you got to draft Sean Taylor. And he said, well, I need more help on offense, and it'll help you too on offense with Winslow Jr. And he said, if you want more offense than draft Sean Taylor. And that's what he did. So thank God. Thank God that happened, because without Clinton telling Joe that and convincing him of that, you would never have been drafted by this team. Yeah, I know. I think in some respects, I've times heard from Clinton, though, that he's like, oh, yeah, now draft that tight end from Utah State.

That'll be perfect. Like Clinton has won. Well, Clinton knows a lot about college football, watches a lot of it. I don't know if he was watching that much of it then, but there's no doubt that, you know, he, like, I think Joe's pretty much confirmed this before, that, you know, it was going to be Winslow, Jr., but it was, it was not only Clinton, but it was, uh, somebody else from Miami on the team that went to him. I'm forgetting now who it was, but whatever.

And then you got picked in the third round. They traded up into the third round to take you. They traded up. Your phone's breaking up. Hang on. I got you. No, that was told by Hazlitt. Way down the line.

They made a trade in the front office. I was drafting you with the pick, the very same pick. And right when they made the trade, I yelled, don't do it, that's our guy. They're going to take him. And then Joe took me. Oh, Hazlitt was coaching New Orleans?

Yeah. Huh. And what he told me was that he would have taken me of that pick. And I told a friend the other day, and I really didn't think about this ever, even after he told me that. But I probably would have like $800.

reception's been with Drew Breeze. I'm thankful to have played for Joe Gibbs and met Joe and been a part of Washington, but God, I mean, Drew Breeze, Peyton, I'd have a million catches. Oh, my God. I mean, we've been a first baller. We've talked about this so many times about

if you had played like an indie with Peyton, you know, the tight ends that he had, you were better than his tight ends. and I'm trying to think of who were the tight ends with Breeze for most of the time. Oh, Graham had a few really good years, and that was about the only one that had a great career with free. Yeah. Well, and by the way, they would have loved you in New Orleans. Who'd at, Cooley?

Maybe. You would have had a lot to do. there have been plenty to do playing in New Orleans. All right. So you... We were talking about draft and I was for some reason

thinking about maybe they wouldn't like me like when Parcells just thought it was terrible. But we actually went and pulled into someone's house here out here in Wyoming and their name isn't Parcells, but they had a big wood carving that said Parcell. So we asked the guy, Phil was home.

And he said he wasn't. He didn't get it. Maybe they have a bill. Maybe. Bill Parcells still crushes my confidence in how I was as a player. You know, I'm looking to see the Saints did not draft a tight end that year. They did draft a receiver, Devery Henderson. There wasn't much. There was not much after me.

And I mean, like, I was probably the best in that class. Ben Watson had an okay career. Kellan was decent at first before he went off the deep end. I don't know. Ben Troop did some things. Ben Troop played for a long time. It was never great. I was probably the most productive of the class.

Chris Wilson was picked before you. Yeah. Ben Hartstock. Ben Hartstock was exclusively a blocking head end. played for the cold. Yeah, I remember. And yeah, and then after you, there were tight ends drafted, but nobody was very good. Yeah, you were easily the best tight end of that draft, by far.

I mean, the, I'm looking... Not often Joe Gibbs is wrong. I'm just... I mean, there was nobody. I mean, nobody I've ever heard of after you were picked. Tim U.S., Sean, Ryan, Mark Wilson, Ryan Kraus, Nate Laurie, Matt Crancheck, Jeff Dugan. He played for Maryland. Michael Gaines,

Eric Jensen, and Courtney Anderson. I remember all of them. Yeah. What about UFAs? Were there any undrafted free agents? It turned out to be anything in 2004? I never looked that up. I probably remember the names. Yep.

I do remember there was a kid in our class, like from Arkansas that came out early as a junior and went undrafted. I was like, well, that's stupid. Shouldn't have done that at all. Well, all right. Fun times. All right. Fun times. So you'll do the next two players and let me know when you're ready to do it? Yeah, let's plan two weeks from next Tuesday. See ya. Thanks for doing this. Bye.

All right. There you go. Cooley on their first two picks. Done for the day. Back tomorrow with Tommy.