The Kevin Sheehan Show - Cooley Talks Josh Rosen's Worth & More

Episode Date: April 5, 2019

Kevin opens the show talking about some of the recent reports on a potential Redskins' trade for Cardinals' quarterback Josh Rosen. Chris Cooley calls in to talk about Rosen and whether or not he's worth #15 overall plus a ton more on the Skins. Kevin previews the Final 4 and has two Smell Test picks. Andy Pollin calls in to talk Rosen and the Final 4. <p> </p><p>Learn more about your ad choices. Visit <a href="https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices">podcastchoices.com/adchoices</a></p> Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You want it. You need it. It's what everyone's talking about. The Kevin Sheehan Show. Now here's Kevin. All right, I am here. Corbin is in for Aaron. This show is presented by Window Nation. If you're in the market for Windows, call 86690 Nation or go to Window Nation.com and tell them that we told you to call. Coolie's going to be on the show today. He will join us shortly. Caps won the division last night. Nats had their most impressive day of the first week of the season, and there is Redskins news, which we will start with. And it began last night. Look, there's been buzz about Josh Rosen here on and off over the last couple of months. But Benjamin Albright, who is a reporter out in Denver, an NFL reporter out in Denver, tweeted out last night at about, I don't know, 6 o'clock somewhere around there. Washington slash Rosen looks more and more like the pairing unless someone else steps up their offer,

and he mentions the Chargers, the Patriots, and the Giants. I did make a few calls, and what I heard is that the buzz around Rosen to the Redskins is legitimate. Certainly from the Redskins perspective, that there is sincere interest in Josh Rosen. That could be an indication of three things. One, they don't love the quarterbacks in this particular draft. Two, they don't think that the quarterbacks that they might like are going to be available and it would be too expensive to trade up to get the quarterback that they like. And three, and this is a theme for me anyway, they need a quarterback because they need,

first of all, a player that can play the position not just next year but in the future, but they need a jolt in this franchise. They need something to energize the fans and potential fans for 2019. And the trade for Josh Rosen would certainly provide a jolt. I don't know what the true results of that would be from a business perspective, but right now things are disastrous out there. They had the renewal for season tickets recently, and apparently it was an ugly, ugly day

with more people than not choosing not to renew season tickets. I want to start with the Albright report from last night. What I found out as a follow-up to reading that, and by the way, J.P. Finley had a report as well on Rosen. What I found out is essentially the Redskins are in position to potentially offer the most. The Giants are not going to give up their first round pick for Josh Rosen, but they may be willing to give up a package that would include mid-round picks

or a series of mid-round picks. The Chargers and the Patriots obviously don't have a high enough first-round pick or as high a first-round pick as the Redskins have. Look, Bruce Allen, and I mentioned this last night in a tweet, Bruce Allen's not been a very good team president or team president slash general manager for this organization. What he has done well, though, is he has been fiscally responsible for the most part, and he's been a very good negotiator over the years. Now, I mentioned that Bruce Allen knows how to haggle, you know,

and a couple of you pushed back with some of the recent trades, whether it was the Alex Smith trade or the RG3 trade or the Donovan McNabb trade, you know, in 2010, fair enough. He's been better at haggling contracts than perhaps he has been in trades. But to be fair, really, the Alex Smith trade in the moment, and even the McNabb trade in the moment, didn't look like anything but a fair deal. You know, lots of different opinions on RG3

and what they had to give up to go up to number two to get him. But Bruce has been pretty good from a business standpoint of negotiating good deals, more of them than bad, especially on the contract side. Again, on the trade side, I heard your response, and those were fair points, and I can't disagree with them. But I think right now the situation is, first of all, the Cardinals may be in wait and C mode right now, waiting for the best potential offer.

I don't think the Redskins are willing to part with number 15 overall right now anyway, and maybe never. I do think they'd be willing to part with their second round, pick this year and one of their two third round picks. They've got number 76 and then the compensatory pick at the end of the third round number 96 overall, along with perhaps a late round pick. So a package of a second, a third, and a later round pick for Rosen. I think that's probably in the area right now where Bruce Allen and Eric Schaefer are. Is that enough to get Arizona to move? Probably not right now. Adam Schaefter just tweeted out moments ago. Two tweets. I'll read them for you. Number one,

despite being the subject of rampant trade speculation, Arizona quarterback Josh Rosen is expected to report to and participate in the Cardinals' off-season workout program on Monday, this coming Monday. Some players who have been subject of trade speculation have declined to report to workouts. He then adds, plus the Cardinals still have not engaged in active trade discussions to date on Josh Rosen. Other teams have asked about him, but to date, the Cardinals have not shown a willingness to trade him. And then Adam, you know, ends his, that second tweet with, to date, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, as if to be continued. The Redskins are one of those teams that have reached out to the Cardinals and actively, you know, tried to discuss a potential trade for

Josh Rosen. I believe that to be true. I believe that a lot of smoke around this also includes some legitimate fire. I think the Redskins are interested in Josh Rosen. So before we get to Cooley, my feeling about Josh Rosen is this, and I've been consistent on this. As a player, I like him, and I would be excited about him. I liked him at UCLA. I liked him in last year's draft. Personally, I think he'd be a good fit for Jay Gruden, and I think he's a potential, very good quarterback in the NFL.

The problem with Rosen is what we really don't know. And those of us that are just fans of the team, or even media members, are never going to know the answers to things like, what kind of person is he? You know, does he love football? Is he a good teammate? Is he coachable? Is he a leader? You know, I found the quote from Jim Mora from a year ago, his UCLA coach. Jim Mora about a year ago in an interview with Peter King said the following.

Quote, Josh needs to be challenged intellectually so he doesn't get bored. He's a millennial. He wants to know why. Millennials, once they know why, they're good. Josh has a lot of interests in life. If you can hold his concentration level and focus only on football for a few years, he will set the world on fire. He has so much ability and he's a really good kid, closed quote. That is a quote of, yeah, he's gifted, he's talented, he's smart, but he's got to be into it.

That's a concerned quote from his former college head coach, a coach that does not coach anymore in college in Jim Mora. So I would say this, for number 15 overall, that's where I hesitate on Josh Rosen. I hesitate because number 15 overall, you know, you can't ever be sure about any of these picks and any of these young quarterbacks. You know, we went through this a month or so ago. It's one out of every three and a half actually hit in the first round of the draft. You know, for every Cam Newton, you've got a Christian ponder, Jake Locker, and Blake Bortles. You know, you just, it's an inexact science. So for 15 overall, that's the reason you hesitate, what Jim Morris said.

And what has been said by many about Josh Rosen. Is he so interested in other things? He comes from affluence. Does he need football? Will he be hungry to become the best he can be? Does he love football? Cooley always asks that question. You've got to find people who love football.

That's the reason you hesitate for number 15 overall. However, for a package that would include this year's second rounder, one of the team's two third rounders, preferably the compensatory pick, the number 96 overall, and a later round pick, say a fifth, sixth, or seventh, I don't know that it's a no-brainer, but for me, I'd be totally in favor of that. and also excited by it. But I'm easy when it comes to that. The thought of Rosen being the quarterback next year, you know, adding a pass rusher or a corner or maybe a wide receiver at number 15 overall, you get Darius Geis back healthy,

and he turns out to be the real deal. The draft, by the way, is deep enough in a lot of positions, including a receiver, that you could potentially get a really good, impact receiver with the other third round pick you have without having to draft a receiver like a Metcalf or a Marquis Brown at 15 overall. And you could add that pass rusher or the corner that you need there. But now you're in business a little bit for 2019 and beyond. For number 15 overall, to me, it's a big risk. Not necessarily one I'd be favor in favor of,

but I want to make this really clear. If they did trade number 15 overall for Josh Rosen, I would be excited to see Rosen as the Redskins quarterback here next year and beyond. And from a contractual standpoint, we've pointed this out many times, as many have. It's a rookie deal still. Three years left on a rookie deal with a team option for a fourth year. It is, you know, when you start talking about a package of a second and a third, and a sixth, you do that. I think you do that. I don't want to categorize it or describe it as a no-brainer,

but we've seen the Redskins success with their second round picks anyway in recent years. That I would be totally in favor of. And if they did end up dealing number 15 overall, I would say what I've said before, which is he better have been very close to the 15th best player on your 2019 draft board. And that's the way to really evaluate this, is to put him in to the 2019 draft pool and put a grade on him. Where is he?

Because if he's somewhere in that 10 to 20 range, and then you can justify in your own mind that number 15 is worth it. That number 15 is worth it. If you've got him as the top-rated quarterback or the second best quarterback in this draft behind Kyler Murray, and he's a top, you know, 10 to 20 player, on average, somewhere around 15th best player in the draft,

then you can justify in your own mind giving up number 15 overall. But the unknown is the personal piece of it. You know, it really is the part that they're going to have to get right because we're not going to have the opportunity to sit down and interview him. We're not going to sit down at dinner with him and get to know him. We're not going to have the ability from a due diligence standpoint to talk to previous coaches and teammates to really find out if you're getting a guy that loves football and that is going to work at his craft and is going to get better and he's going to live up to the talent that he has. You can say that about a lot of players, but with him, there is some smoke around the kind of person you're getting. And that's what you have to be concerned with.

but I am, I was thinking about this last night as it becomes perhaps a little bit more real of a possibility that Josh Rosen out there is the Redskins starting quarterback on opening day with three years left on a rookie deal and a team option for a fourth. And Jay Gruden is his coach, and I think Jay knows how to coach up quarterbacks, I do. He still needs a receiver. He still needs a legitimate receiver, someone who, can get separation at the line of scrimmage. Somebody who can get open consistently. The Redskins still will have many, many holes to fill. But right now, one of the biggest holes you have to fill as a quarterback. You have a backup, a career backup who gets injured all the time, and a middling starter at best in Keenham. This is not a position that you have any confidence in in 2019 or in the future.

First of all, you don't have anybody under contract beyond next year. So bringing Rosen into the organization, I think would be exciting. I think it would give me personally, I don't know how you feel, it would give me a sense of something to be optimistic about. Maybe it would be a reach to be optimistic about anything happening in 2019. But if you end up being right about the quarterback, you've got a chance, regardless of how disfutable. functional the organization is. If you get the quarterback piece right, you've got a chance to be a competitive team, a team that competes for the postseason year in and year out if you get that position right. They have had lock in already. Daniel Jones is apparently coming in next week.

So you've got all of that going on as well. But the Rosen thing is definitely going to be one of those things that day by day here, we're going to get news that trickles out about Rosen. It's interesting that Schefter's tweet this morning indicates that nothing is imminent, but I think also Adam tells you in that very final tweet of his, where he writes, other teams have asked about him, but to date, the Cardinals have not shown a willingness to trade him, and then he says, to date, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot. As if to say, not yet, not so far. but if the Cardinals end up becoming sold on Kyler Murray, and I wouldn't put that in there as a slam dunk at this point.

Again, a year ago right now, nobody had Mayfield as the number one pick. Everybody was talking about Darnold a year ago, you know, three weeks before the draft. So things do change and they change quickly and dramatically. But if the Cardinals are in on Kyler Murray, you would think that Rosen would be available. why would they draft Rosen last year and say to him, oh, by the way, we've just drafted your replacement? How healthy of a situation could that really be? If they're going to draft Kyler Murray, I would be shocked if they don't trade Josh Rosen. The Redskins likely have the best available pick.

I mean, the Giants do theoretically, but the Giants are not going to give up number six overall. Would the Redskins give up number 15? Would they have to give up number 15? 15. For number 15, I think it's a lot of risk. I would still be excited to see him in a Redskins uniform next year, but I think it would be a high risk move because of the personal stuff. Hopefully they would get comfortable on that. But for any other package that doesn't include number 15 overall, yeah, I'd do it. I would definitely do it and be excited about it as a fan to see Josh Rosen as the Redskins quarterback next year. Real quick word on

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Cooley's podcast, which he puts together a few times a week on any platform that podcasts are available, the same as mine, you know, Google Play, Spotify, iTunes, Apple Podcasts, all of them. And you can just go to Redskins.com, which it's, easy to do to listen to the podcast as well. All right, I just finished talking about some of the news out there about Josh Rosen to the Redskins. That seems to be heating up a little bit, nothing definitive, but reports out of Denver. J.P. had some information. Schefter this morning, you know, pushed back a little bit saying for now it is, you know, the Cardinals aren't interested in dealing Rosen, but there is interest in teams have contacted the Cardinals. But he wrote that the

Cardinals right now have not shown a willingness to trade him, but he writes to date, meaning, you know, that could change. So I want to start the conversation there. We've talked about Rosen in the past, but I want to get your updated thoughts on Rosen. First question is this. Is Josh Rosen worth number 15 overall? Yes or no? Not to me. I think that you have to weigh into some of what happened in Arizona this year. So 15's a stretch. You do put him right into this quarterback class, though, in my opinion, and say if you were going to draft him in this class and you didn't say last year, you just went on his college film, where would he go? And I think he probably would go at 15. So then why? I think there was some struggles that he had at UCLA in terms of seeing the entire

field, checking the ball down, getting underneath throws, not making, you know, what I've essentially called FU throws under pressure. Here we go. Let's see if someone will make a play. And those were exaggerated in Arizona last year. Now, all that said, you know, it was not a good spot for him last year in Arizona. It's so similar to the Jared Goff situation with the Rams before Sean McVeigh came. So I think that there's a lot of interesting with Rosen.

The good is, mechanically, he's an outstanding quarterback. what he does in the pocket, what he does with armed talent, with being able to make a ton of throws. There's some specialness to him, but there's also that negative. And then there's that whole, what kind of guy is he? Right. And that was another issue. So as far as 15, my issue is I'm not sure on Rosen, and I am sure that you can get a starter at 15 that you need. You mean at another position.

Here's the other thing. No one's going to trade 15 for Rosen. That's the next thing, Kevin, is no one's going to give up a mid-first for Rosen, which is why I'm sure the Cardinals are very interested in the Redskins because it's probably the highest pick available that somebody could potentially trade. Yes, that's true. I mean, the Giants could potentially trade, but they're not going to. They could trade 17.

But again, I want to go back to something, because I'm going to get to the next question, which is what kind of package would you, be fine with. Because I think personally the Redskins are unwilling to part with number 15, and they're looking at another package that would include like a second, one of their two thirds, and a later round pick. But you said something that you put him into this draft pool, you put a number on him, you put a grade on him, and if he ends up being somewhere, the second best quarterback in this draft, and the 12th through 18th best player on your board, Well, then why wouldn't you give up number 15 overall?

I don't think he is the 12th best player on this board. I think they're 18 better players on this board right now. I think he's mid-20s. So that's why I wouldn't give it up. And it's also that I don't necessarily want to lose what should be a Pro Bowl-type player of 15. I don't know. There's a lot I like about him. And I went back and watched every single one of his college games.

And there are games where he's the first pick of the game. draft. But in every game, in every single game, there are moments where you scratch your head and go, what's it? Why did you throw it to the wrong team? You threw it to the other team. Yeah. Why is he doing this? Like, what is the deal here? And then so you see that, the propensity to make some big mistakes and big situations and in some dumb, dumb things where you just throw it underneath and take, take the yards. So, um, I think it's really interesting. I saw everywhere, because I did a film breakdown, I saw everywhere like Chris Cooley really hates Josh Rosen.

I don't eat Josh Rosen. I think he's got the potential to be a really good player. I think he's got a lot of fundamentals that I love. I think you can teach him, build around him. The Redskins would be a great fit because he's going to be behind two really good dudes in Keenham and Colt and two really smart dudes in Keenham and Colt. So that room would fit really well, I think, with Rosen. Neither of those guys, I don't know, maybe Keenham.

do they really expect to truly be starters forever, kingdom's on a one-year deal? They'd be fine with it. So it'd be a good fit. I read a quote because I remember that Jim Mora, his UCLA coach, had done an interview this time last year and was critical of Rosen, you know, and I went and found the quote and I read it,

and it speaks to what I think your concern is and what I described as well with respect to number 15 overall is, you know, what kind of guy are you getting? and the quote went this way. He said it to Peter King a year ago, Jim Mora did. He said, quote, Josh needs to be challenged intellectually so he doesn't get bored. He's a millennial.

He wants to know why. Millennials, once they know why, they're good. Josh has a lot of interests in life. If you can hold his concentration level and focus only on football for a few years, he will set the world on fire. He has so much ability, and he's a really good kid, closed quote. First of all, the challenged, and he gets bored, that would apply to you. I remember Mike Shanahan telling me, the problem with Chris is he got it so quickly that,

you know, we had to, we taught to the rest of the class, and he was just back there drawing pictures after the first 15 minutes because he was so bored. But I think the part of the quote that we've heard before is Josh has a lot of interests in life, if you can hold his concentration level and have him focus only on football for a few years, he'll set the world on fire. That's a concern. That came from his head coach, you know, last year before the draft. That's the only part of that quote that has any weight to it. The millennial stuff, that's get off my lawn garbage. He needs to know why. Well, yeah, everyone wants to know why. Not everybody. You did, and I, people who are curious. I said this. I said this,

the other day, one of my favorite traits in a player or in someone in my business is curiosity. Yep. Yeah. I like that. And I don't know if it's a millennial thing or if it's my age group or whatever it is or if it's a certain type of person. But I like a person who knows why, because when they know why, then they're able to really go out and execute. I hate the, you're just going to do what I say you're supposed to do. And I'm not going to give you any leeway.

I mean, you sent me the Aaron Rogers thing. This thing screams Aaron Rogers McCarthy seven years from now. Unless you have a guy that fits with him. Right. Well, yeah, well, I would hope that Jay from an offensive standpoint and a quarterback standpoint is better for a player than McCarthy was. But I don't, by the way, I don't think it's a millennial thing. You and I have talked about this a lot in the past, that curiosity is a good thing.

But not everybody wants to know why. A lot of people are raised to be. employees and to, you know, take direction. To show me what to do. The coach told me to do it this way. I'm going to do it this way. I know you weren't that way. And I, you know, but anyway, so that's one of the reasons you would hesitate about number

15 overall. What about a package that includes this year's second, one of their two thirds, all right? They've got 76 plus 96, which is the compensatory third rounder they got, and say, a fifth, you know, a second, third, and fifth. Would you do it for that? Yeah, I would do it for that. Yeah, me too. I think I would try to shop out next year's third if I could possibly shop out next year's third. But if you try to do it for that, then you can potentially trade back in the first round and get a later first or get another second and another third. I mean, there's some things that you could do to still acquire, you know, a couple high-level picks if you were to move your second. So, yeah, I would do it for

that. I just believe at 15, you get whoever you want, essentially. There's going to be a pool of five guys that should be Pro Bowl type players, even at that spot. They might not be the elite of the elite, but they're short things. And I hate giving away a short thing in that situation. Yeah, I do too. So the second, yeah, I would absolutely do it. And the third would be, you know, hey, look, can we give you next year's third. Yeah, I think we'll give you a fifth or we'll give you a sixth. I think the challenge at that point becomes whether or not, say, the Patriots decide to give up

the last pick in the first round for the quarterback of the future if they really like Rosen. So here's the thing that I was thinking about with this Rosen stuff, and the Cardinals saying they're not interested right now. I started to talk to you about this yesterday. time their general manager I hired a new head coach and drafted a quarterback in the first round do you really want to be wrong on both of them immediately right for a late first I think that there's some risk to it and he brings in Kingsbury a guy who a lot of people said because he's worked with Sean and Sean asked him a bunch of stuff about his air raid offense that that he's a brilliant quarterback dude offensive dude why aren't they thinking okay let's

It's just draft Bosa, or let's trade that first pick back a few spots. That first pick has more value by far than any other pick and get a bunch of stuff in this draft, and we'll work with Rosen. We like him enough that we'll work with him. And let's make it look like, you know, we're going to for sure take Murray and that that pick has more value, because if you want it, you really have to give us a lot for it. I just, and then you start talking about trading into the Patriots. Let's just say you trade him to the Patriots and Tom Brady plays one more year.

And then Rosen's awesome in an organization that's going to help him be awesome behind Tom Brady after playing with Tom Brady. Three years down the line, you've traded away Rosen for a late first and he is a Pro Bowl quarterback for the New England Patriots. I'm not trading him to the Patriots. I'm not trading him to any team that he's probably going to have great success with in the near future. Well, I mean, then you're, you know, if the group includes the Chargers, Giants, Patriots, and Redskins, and your goal is to trade him to an organization where he's got the least chance to be successful, then the Redskins should be the frontrunner. Well, the Giants don't look like they're going to be a good thing.

I just don't think that that would be in their mind. That would be for me if I was a general manager that just busted on a quarterback. I'd want to make sure he looked like a bust. If you're an NFC team trading him to an AFC team, I know what you're saying, but the Steve Kime thing is interesting. Last year, new coach, quarterback in the first round, and then a year later, another new coach and another new quarterback. But if you're absolutely sold on Kyler Murray, I don't think that you can bring Kyler Murray in a year after telling Josh Rosen, you're our guy, and have it work for Josh Rosen, and then hence, by extension, have it work for the team.

I think if they're going to draft Kyler Murray, I know what you're saying, and by the way... I'm not suggesting that they have them both on the roster. Okay, okay, I wanted to make sure of that, because I don't think it's completely out of the question that they end up not drafting Kyler Murray, and they pick Bosa and they trade the pick. I mean, I've mentioned this a few times in the last week, a year ago, or certainly a year and a month ago, Sam Darnold was going to be the first pick in the draft. Baker Mayfield was not being considered. No one was talking about Baker Mayfield being the number one pick in the draft in March of 2018.

So these things change so quickly and dramatically almost every year when it comes to this position. It really does. There's no question. It's so up and down. They could like Drew Lockmore and say, hey, look, let's trade back to seven. We'll get Locke. let's trade back to five and we'll get Locke. They could like Locker at this point.

The thing with Murray, like everything I just brought up about not wanting Rosen to have success somewhere else or not wanting to commit to failure, if you don't draft Murray and Rosen's not good for you and Murray's a baller next year, then you're even dumber. I know. You know, we talk about this all the time on quarterbacks and drafts. And it really is. Like I almost don't think if I were a judge. GM. I want the first pick in the draft with a perceived quarterback need because it's so hard or

have a high first round. Just think about it. I've gone through the list many times, but 2011, in the first round, Locker, Gabbard, Ponder, you know, the next year in the first round, Griffin, Tannahill, Whedon, in the first round the next year was E.J. Manuel. Then it was Bortles, Mansell, and Bridgewater. Like, it is a one-and-four shot. It's basically like, like historically a 25% chance, you're going to get that position right in the first round. It's not with the first overall. With the first overall... The first overall is like a 70% starter success rate.

Well, let's go through them. I looked this up the other day, so you can go through it with the ones. Oh, you're saying number one, number one. Well, are you absolutely convinced on golf? Are you absolutely convinced on Winston? Are you absolutely... Oh, I'm not convinced on Winston, but that goes into the failure rate. I'm convinced.

Bradford's a failure as a number one overall. I just gave you the last five. Yes. I'm convinced enough that Gough isn't a failure. He took his team to Super Bowl. I know. I'm not saying, but he's not an elite quarterback. I, Jared Gough is...

I mean, numbers would say that there's a pretty good debate to that he's going to be an elite quarterback. His last two years, he's had the highest scoring offense. Which side of the debate would you take? That he's an elite quarterback or that he's not an elite quarterback? I think it's still yet to be seen, to be honest with you, Kevin. Right now he's elite at times, but I think he struggles under pressure, and I think he struggles in, excuse me, not under pressure in the pocket, under pressure situations.

And I think he struggles in certain weather situations. He doesn't play well in the cold. You saw what he did against the bears. So there are some things that he's still growing up to be better at. I guess we could also look at the last couple of drafts. You know, the 2017 draft, it was Tribisky, Mahomes, and Watson in the first round. Right now, that looks like the best quarterback draft in terms of the percentage of quarterbacks that are going to turn out to be legitimate starters with a star, maybe two stars.

Who knows? Maybe all three of them will be stars. And then last year, you know, the early returns on Mayfield, Darnold, Josh Allen, pretty good. And Josh Rosen and Lamar Jackson still to be determined, but the first three that were taken look like real NFL quarterback. So maybe we're now in an upward trend of you can't go wrong in the first round. Who knows? But it historically has been a crap shoot. Yeah, just number one, number one overall historically hasn't been. Yeah, but you know what we have? And I'm not talking about you're like you've gone back for four years. I'm talking about going back to the Lway draft.

Early 80s. I mean, I'm just going to, you know, Alex Smith was number one, number one overall, all right? That's not a bust. It's not a bust, but you didn't end up with an elite quarterback. You ended up with a middle of the pack starting quarterback at his best. Jamarcus Russell was number one overall, bust. Matt Stafford was number one overall. I have always been a Stafford fan.

I don't know, I don't think I've ever considered him elite, but a good quarterback. Sam Bradford. Bust or not Bust as the number one overall. I mean, they had a decent year last year. You're not going to say bust on that. They're very pleased with... Oh, Sam, sorry, I'm saying to Darnold. Sam Bradford.

Yeah, bust as a number one overall. Yeah, not an elite quarterback. Cam Newton hit, Andrew Luck hit, James Winston still to be determined. Bust. I like Winston. You don't think he'll ever get there. Like, we'll see what happens.

happens in this new offense with Ariens, but this is this third staff in five years that there's a reason. And then Goff and Mayfield have been the last two as a number one overalls. Kyler Murray, by the way, totally different than any of these quarterbacks, with the exception, I guess, of Baker Mayfield, who was picked last year at number one overall. Like a completely different type of quarterback taken number one overall. We've really not seen that until last year. All right. Another question about Rosen, because you addressed what you like about him and what your concerns are about him. The way he plays, is he a good fit for Jay's offense?

Wow. Yes. You really had to think about that one. I did. I really did have to think about it. Yeah, I think he's a good fit for Jay's offense. I do. I think that Jay's offense really isn't a quick game type of offense.

It's a let's get the ball down the field type of offense, and we want you to look deep first offense. Alex was really probably not a good fit Jay's offense. I'm honest with you. Well, it's a good thing he had input then. Adap to Alex Smith is the other thing. But I don't understand that. Because to me, Alex Smith looked

to me like, in many ways, not that much different than Andy Dalton and Kirk Cousins except for his mobility. Jay's offense is not a quick game rhythm passing off. It was with Kirk. More so. That was Sean's offense. That was Sean calling the offense.

offense. It was Jay's offense, whatever you want to say, but it was Sean calling the offense. It wasn't. It wasn't. It wasn't a lot of booed. It wasn't a lot of easy throws. Not last year. And not the year before. Well, to me, when I think of Josh Rosen, the reason I asked you the question is I see a lot of similarities with Dalton and with Kirk and not the same level of mobility or athleticism that Alex Smith has, but some similarities where he would fit definitely the Sean McVey Redskin offense. I think he says the Jay Gruden offense.

I think Jay wants a guy that will challenge defenses down the field when he gets opportunities to. He wants guys to take shots. He wants a little bit of gunslinger. I think that's why he likes Colt McCoy so much. And Rosen is a gunslinger. He will take chances. Oh, he is the definition of gunslinger.

He will take so many chances. And he will throw it into tight windows. And he will, if he's got to look down, the field, he's going to take that look down the field. And he's going to throw some picks. Yeah, he's going to throw some picks. You know what else? He's going to take some sacks, and he's going to fumble like crazy. The guy does not protect the ball in the pocket.

Not last year. Nor the year before in college. So you do think he'd be a good fit for Jay's offense. But what do you have been a good... You know last year, you know last year he had more fumbles than anyone in the league per dropback? Per dropback? dropback? Because Kirk had to have a lot of, he had a lot of fumbles. Yeah, well, he had more than Kirk per drop back by far. I can just see it now. I don't have my notebook on the number. The

numbers, the number's astronomical how many fumbles he had. Our fan base seems to think over the years that quarterbacks don't throw interceptions, just our quarterbacks throw interceptions, but interceptions get thrown around the league all the time. But the fumble thing would drive them nuts. they're not protecting the ball. It's crazy because people go nuts about interceptions, but fumbles are turnovers, and if fumbles a turnover, a quarterback should never have. Interceptions are explainable a lot of the time.

They're understandable. Sometimes they're taking shots. Normally a quarterback, when you look at them, like a decent quarterback, if they throw 15 ticks, seven of them are not their fault. Rosen was under siege last year in Arizona. I mean, the game, remember before, the last time we had the conversation about Rosen,

I had watched a bunch of games, and you had just started that process, and I'm like, good God, there were plays where he didn't even have a chance to get his feet set, and he was getting hit from all sides. Well, there are also answers a lot of the time, and for a quarterback, he does not want to take the easy throw

when it's immediately available. There's a lot of situations where he's going to get hit. Does he offer up a chance on paper anyway, or on film? to be a better quarterback solution and situation than the one the Redskins have now with either Keenham or McCoy.

I'm not talking about the future. I'm going to stop you. The answer is 100% yes. He has long-term starter potential. Neither of those have that. They're both in their 30s. They both have journeyed around the league to some extent.

Well, Colts only been on a couple teams, but neither of them have proven that they're going to be the legit guy. although I do think it's interesting that Denver was so willing to get rid of Keenum immediately. Immediately. Immediately. And he was good. He wasn't as bad as people thought last year in Denver.

I don't dislike having Keenham as a guy here. I don't. I mean, it'll be interesting how they compete. But that is another benefit for a guy like Rosen is you have a full year where there's no pressure. Here's another interesting question for you. And I'll ask you, because I don't really want to answer it. I shouldn't ask it really. does it make it more appealing for a new head coach in a year if you were going to hire a new head coach?

I think that's a really good question because I do. If everybody, if there's a general consensus that Rosen's a legit talent and that you can win with Josh Rosen as your quarterback, right now people view him that way. I'm just saying if there's a consensus on that, then you're really not taking risk on making a trade for him whether Jay's here next year or not. but if if you're trying to fit a square peg into a round hole from a personality standpoint, from a talent standpoint, you think he's actually fit, you know, perfectly a good perfect fit for Jay's system, then yeah, you are taking a chance if we all believe that Jay is potentially in his last year as head coach. Because then your ability to attract the next one, well, you know what, no, here's why it's not.

a risk. It's because of the contract. If he's not any good, it doesn't matter because you're not spending big money on him. You can still, a year from now, if he wasn't the right guy, if Jay gets cut loose as they go 5 and 11, and Rosen stunk, it doesn't mean that you can't attract a new coach with a new quarterback strategy because he's still on his rookie deal. And at that point, he's only got two years left on the rookie deal. No, I understand that, but it makes it more appealing have a guy that, look, if I'm going to take a head coaching job, I think it's perfect the kind of job that Sean McVeigh went into. You have a built roster to some extent with a guy that you can develop as a quarterback, as your quarterback. I'm not suggesting Jay's getting fired by any

means. I'm just saying if they end up having another six, seven win season, it's probably likely that he will be fired. It's just the nature of the NFL in every level. It's a production lead. Look, I thought that this year. So if you go into the season, let's just say you go, you finish this season, don't acquire a quarterback, and you win seven games, all right? Cole is probably, I think he's in his last year, right? Yeah. He's in his last year, Keenham's in his last year.

You didn't acquire a quarterback, and you don't have a pick necessarily good enough to get the quarterback that you really like for a new coach to build his organization. is a tough sell for the first head coach in the most desirable two or three head coaches on the Gruden front just so we're clear we both thought that if Jay didn't get to the playoffs or if Jay had a bad year in 2018 that he was in deep deep trouble so the notion that Jay is definitely not going to survive another seven and nine or six and ten season next year I don't think he will Like if you told me right now I had to wager on, they don't make the playoffs next year, it's another disappointing season.

Injuries or no injuries as an excuse, I would bet that he's not going to be here in 2020. But it's possible that he'll be here because... Certainly is. Yeah, no, I'm not suggesting that it's not possible or that there's a guaranteed he's not going to make it out of the season if he wins seven games or if he wins eight games and doesn't make the playoffs. or if six, if you win six and something happens, I just don't, I can't say that at this point, because I really have no idea. But to your point, it's not, you wouldn't bet against it.

No, the context is, you know, and we can envision it. There are multiple, you know, there are multiple situations where he would be back. Another injury riddled season where Bruce somehow convinces Dan that they would have been a playoff team and a Super Bowl contender had it not been for the injuries, or let's just say they trade for Rosen and that it starts off slowly, but it starts to build late, and you start to see the potential of Gruden and Rosen together in the offense. If you add another receiver, if you add a good tight end, and they finish eight and eight. You know, they win four out of their last six to finish eight and eight. They miss the playoffs, but there's an upward trend, which, you know, so all of that's

in play. I have a question for you, another question for you, as it relates to the overall sort of organizational mindset to this stuff. How important is Rosen or a first-round quarterback, Locke or Daniel Jones or whomever, how important is it to the organization right now that they find a quarterback? They had season ticket renewal deadlines, either earlier this week or late last week, I forget when it was, and I've been told it did not go well. Not a shocker, but that it didn't go well. What do you call the ticket office? How badly, I talked to a lot of people on that. How badly... Larry Jones down to the ticket office, he said, Kevin, this is not happen. I've gotten five calls in a row from people saying they're not renewing. How badly does

this franchise need a young quarterback to give fans, potential fans, a chance to legitimately believe in the future? Desperately. I look at, I look at, so I was, I'm going to kind of go off track a little bit, but I was watching one of those AAS games before it went under this week. And I just sat there and thought, I could care less. Right. I just, I didn't watch one minute of it.

Yeah, it was because I didn't know anybody. If you can't market and sell your players, then people don't really care. Rosen would you agree that of all the quarterbacks, other than Murray, that Rosen

would be the biggest would be the most marketable move for the franchise, more so than Locke or Jones or even Haskins. Do you agree with that? I think that Murray, Locke, Haskins are all incredibly marketable. I'm not sure on Daniel Jones just yet in terms of his marketability. He reminds me of Eli Manning. I'm not talking about the personality of the player. about the reaction from the fans on the move, what would excite them the most of all the

quarterback stuff we're talking about? Take Murray off the table, because Murray would be the number one. For me, Locke, but I'm assuming Rosen would be, I think Rosen would probably, Haskins will be really intriguing as well. A lot of people think Haskins is a star. And you don't, and I don't either. Neither of us do, so we're not going to use that answer, but theoretically the local kid who's got so much potential who had statistics out the butt at Ohio State. He's going to be incredibly marketable. And remember, Haskins, of the quarterbacks in the draft, other than Murray, take Murray off the table, Haskins is the one that fans know because he played for Ohio State

and everybody watches Ohio State every week. Nobody, I guarantee you, 80% of our fan base that is now looking at quarterbacks and getting into the draft didn't see Drew Locke play one football game last year live and didn't see Daniel Jones play one football game last year live and didn't see well they probably saw Jared Stidham a lot more than any of these guys but they saw a hell of a lot of Haskins like every week prime time

and so Haskins would be the guy to me if we take Murray off the equation out of the equation Haskins and Rosen are the two guys that give the franchise a jolt I don't think Locke does it. You and I would be excited about Locke. I actually like Jones too, but I don't think either one of those two would give, especially depending on where you take them.

You know, it has to be in the first round to have any sort of real impact. Yeah, for sure. Like if you take Will Greer in the third round or sit him in the third round, or Daniel Jones falls to the 46th pick in the second round, round, everyone's going to say that there's a reason he fell, you know, we settled on a guy.

Yeah, 46th. I think I said something. He's going to go before that. But let's say you trade it up or traded back in the first and got him or if he fell any further than 15, which he should, then there's a reason everyone's going to understand that. It's not going to be like when John Allen fell and we were pumped about a guy like John Allen falling that far, even though he's a delinement. It's not as marketable or is exciting. It's kind of Daniel Jones, the rest of the quarterbacks

after Locke and Murray should go after 20. Rank them right now. Have you done now film breakdowns on all of the quarterbacks that are possible first rounders? Other than the kid out of, oh, that are possible first rounders, yeah. Okay, so rank them for me. Just film.

Murray is one. He's insane when you watch him on tape. Locke is two. Take guy, leadership, in terms of time and he's played in a in a college team,

on a college team with success and growing, I would take Locke. I would love to have Locke. I think he's awesome. But it's hard to pass on transcendent talent like Murray. Jones. But would that be a debate?

Like if you had a choice of Locke or Murray, would that be a debate for you? The only, if I had a, no. If I had a debate, It would be because I would be afraid of missing out on something, not having the guy that I wanted. Right. I would be afraid of losing my job because I missed out on something. Okay.

So then I think you're right in a group of guys with, I think Finley and Jones are very comparable. I like Daniel Jones a little more than I like Finley. and then you go down the list. I like Will Griller a lot, but it just looks like it hurts him to throw the ball. He has so much effort into throwing the ball. He reminds me so much of Rex. I think he's probably a late second, early third round pick,

and he'll rise because the kind of guy is, and he'll impress people in interviews. He's smart. He's a football player. You haven't mentioned Haskins yet. You've mentioned five quarterbacks. Is Haskins six? So the thing with Haskins is,

it's so unknown how long it's going to take him to develop. They were so minimal in what they did at Ohio State with Askins. He made a ton of big throws, but most of his big throws came on play action type of throws. I thought they had three outstanding receivers, three that could win. They were hard to match up with. He did not impress me in any level in terms of reading the field or getting through his progressions or having the anticipation needed in an NFL level. That to me was the most.

He needed to see his wide receivers come open before he threw the ball. It never just came out in timing and rhythm. So, yeah, I think he's got a long way to go. And by the way, he can't move in the pocket. He's sluggish. He's got slow feet. He's slow as it is, but he's not quick in the pocket either. It's not like he's a big guy.

He's got some good agility. He's just slow. So I guess you could say you could get better. Lose weight. I don't know. He looked slow. Didn't you know? That's going to hurt him as well.

And if you were to have to play next year, you're going to take a ton of sacks. Didn't you like Brett Rippin from Boise? Yeah, I like Rippin. All right. I'm not 100% convinced on all the intangibles with Rippin. I like his competitiveness. I like that he'll make some big throws and big spots. Some things he does that really impress you.

What about the big guy from Buffalo, the 6-7 quarterback Jack? I haven't watched that kid yet. You haven't watched him yet? because there have been some reports here over the last week that he is rising up the boards. Like he could be potentially, you know, and we've seen this before. Like out of nowhere, there's Tyree Jackson taken late in the first round. Yeah, I'm not sure about Tyree Jackson. I think Stidham's an interesting one.

I thought you didn't like him. Gus Malzahn's offense is a high school offense. There was no reason for him to stay because I think he showed all he's going to show within that system, which is tremendous arm talent. But in terms of anticipating that offense, he didn't, he missed a lot of throws down the field, he missed a lot of open receivers. I didn't like Stidham very much, but watching that offense, I don't know, I don't know if you're going to fall in low with a quarterback in that system.

Right. I kind of liked him. I remember when you went to. Because you watched him on TV. Yeah, I did. Stid him had 13 touchdown passes on the season. He had five in the Purdue game in the bowl. I know.

He had an eight total touch with all season. His 2017. He took out the Purdue film, and you don't like Stidim. His 2017 season was much better. He also had, you know, guys like Carri-on-Johnson in the backfield. He had better players around him in 2017. Yeah, look at Ohio State. It's the same type of system.

Did you look at Clayton-Thorson at all? That's the one I want to watch, and I haven't gotten to yet. Okay. Well, you should watch Jackson, too. Thorson and Jackson. I got a lot of watching, don't I? Well, I mean, you know, the draft's coming up. I mean, these are the quarterbacks.

I mean, people want to know. I just don't see us taking a quarterback, not in the first round. I know. I just don't see us taking a quarterback in the third round to take a quarterback. I think Greer would be the only interesting one in the third that the Redskins would probably want to take. I think that they're trying to find a franchise quarterback. McClewin told Kime that he only thinks one quarterback, and that's Murray, or he implied Murray, because he's selling his information.

But basically, the takeaway was there's only one first round. quarterback, and that's Murray. Sweet. All right. Prioritize right now, because there are a lot of needs. What is the most important need for the Redskins going into this draft? This quarterback. Okay, after quarterback. But let's just say you want to, let's just say for this season, right? Even if you got a Rosen that lock any of these guys, they're not going to start. It is a good situation. You're going to start. You're going to start Keenham or McCoy. Not if you trade for Rosen, you're not. That's a debate. Really? I think so. If you make a big trade for Josh Rosen, you got to play him? And he doesn't start,

right now, I'll bet you $500 that if they trade for Rosen, he is the starter day one. 500 bucks. Well, that call won't come from the head coach. That's great. That's so encouraging. Because the head coach... That's awesome. I will bet you $500 right now fill some pressure to win football games, and it's going to lose some football games because Josh Rosen's a starting quarterback this season. So he may come in at some point, and it may be early, but I'll bet you that Keenham or McCoy would be your starter to kick the season off. All right. That's a bet right now.

whatever you want to say with that. Assuming the trade, if they trade for Rosen, I will bet you right now, even money. All right, $500 that Rosen's the starter day one. I'm not going to take the bet. I'm not going to say that call's not coming in. But I'm just telling you that I'll bet you $500 and Jay doesn't want to start Rosen. Well, then you know what? They shouldn't trade for Rosen. Yeah, they should trade for him. There's no problem with not having a guy play the second you freaking get him. I understand that. Keep the toy and the rapper until Christmas. That's totally fair. But you know what?

Jake Rudin, because he needs to win, if he has any influence on any of these decisions, is going to say, I need a pass rusher and a wide receiver and a corner. I need it now. He needs a tight end more than he needs a receiver. Okay, or a tight end. At 15 overall, or with our second round pick that you want to trade for Josh Rosen, who's not going to be ready for us for a few years. And by the way, he's only got, he's got three years left on the rookie deal with a team.

option for fifth, so you can view it as four years left. But I, he, if Rosen, if you're telling me that he would pick Colt McCoy or Case Keenham right now over Josh Rosen as the starter in 2019, then the trade is going to be made by Bruce, and then I think I even feel better about he'll absolutely order Gruden to start Josh Rosen, he and Dan will in the opener. There's no way they're going to sell Josh Rosen tickets and all summer long and then have him sitting over there holding the clipboard in the opener. Well, what would you do? I think Rosen might be better than both of them anyway.

He's not right now. Okay. He's not. He's not close to Keenham right now. Colt, we just don't know, but he's not Keenham right now. Colt might not even be ready. Oh, by the way, we haven't even considered this. I did when they made the trade for Keenham.

We'll be ready. That Colt potentially could get released or traded if they were to trade for Josh Rosen. Yeah, he might go to Arizona. Maybe that's part of the deal. Although, would you really want Colt to back up Kyler Murray? Well, yeah, maybe. Yeah, absolutely. I'd like a guy that I knew to get along with anybody that dudes love.

Yeah, sure. That if you were Murray, you'd look at and say, look, this guy's been a backup his whole career. a backup, RG3, he had a backup of Kirk Cousins. He was going to have to back up Keenham potentially. Like, he's just my backup. So here's the trade. You got to give up your second. You got to give up number 46 overall.

But you're going to also include Colt McCoy and Josh Doxon for Josh Rosen. And you keep the picks. And you know what? Your fifth is not like a, it would be interesting. If you package Josh Doxon and Colt McCoy, you're going to get a fifth. You think the two of them together only bring back a fifth? It's a four.

I don't know what the value of Colt McCoy is at any given time. Josh Doxon's not getting, you're not getting anything for him. Oh, I know. Well, you're going to potentially get a seventh. Yeah, you'd get a kid. Someone may just throw in a seven. You're not, sorry to Josh Doxon right now, but no one's trading for him. It would be conditional.

It would be conditional. It would be a conditional pick. You know, if he played and he produced, you'd end up getting something maybe as high. additional sixth. Maybe as high as a fifth, and then if not, you'll probably get a sixth. Right. So you ask the needs, you need a pass rusher, you need a tight end. I love a couple of the tight ends. The kid out of San Diego State's really good. Hawkinson's a short thing at 15. And then the kid out of A&M can do some things as well. A&M and San Diego State could be your second rounder if it were there. I don't know if they fall to the third. The guy from

San Diego State is his last name's wearing or warring, whatever. But do you like him? By the way, the tight end, remember when we had the last conversation, you probably don't remember about Josh Rosen? And I said, who is that tight end that he threw to over and over again in 2017 in particular? It's Caleb Wilson. Do you like him? Have you looked at him?

No. Because I think he's... I don't really like to use an H-back. He's projected somewhere in the second to third round. He's an H-back. You don't need an H-back right now. You know the Redskins have more money tied up in the salary cap in tight ends than any other team right now? That's ridiculous.

And you know... 2018. And I'm telling you that their biggest need on offense is a tight end. Well, don't you think they're going to release Vernon Davis if they draft a tight end? 100% yeah. Okay. So do you like Hawkinson or Fant, the two Iowa tight ends? I don't even think it's close.

I don't like Fants. So Hawkinson. I love Hawkinson. Hockinson, for those of you that are wondering, is the white guy that wears number 38? Fants the 6-4 black guy. He's a guy around a 4-5. He can really run. He's not a pure route runner.

He's not a blocker really to any extent. It's not that he can't, but he's technique poor in the run game. Hawkinson looks like Cooley. He don't have to teach how to do anything. He can do everything. He's got to improve a little bit in the run game as a pass catcher. Other than when he gets pressed or when he gets contacted down, which he is a magnet for.

He's a pretty good route runner. Like, he's a better magnet down the field. Like, he can't, he can't get off. You can work with that. Like, he can get, he's fast, he can stretch the field, he finds some holes in zones. He's got really great. He's got really good hands.

But you don't have to teach him anything. Like, he's a starter tomorrow as a why. And he can play 90% of plays plus if you want him to. I swear to God, if they draft T.J. Hawkinson, I'm going to be so angry that you're not coaching him. so angry that you're not his coach. Oh, you're such a dope. I'm, no, I'm not.

I'm not a dope about that. Why would you be angry about that? I'm not a coach. Because you should be, and he, he's you. Every time I watch the T.J. Hawkinson video reel, it's Chris Cooley. Is he a better prospect than you were? Yeah, right now, he's definitely a better prospect than I was. He's at Iowa. He played in a big-time conference. You got big-time filming.

I didn't have a big time film. Dude, I bawled against Louisiana Monroe, though. You had a pretty good game against Nebraska. And he ran like a 4-6-something or whatever. I ran 4-8 of the Combine. You ran 4-8, Jesus. I ran 4-6-7 at my pro-day, though. So whatever that's worth.

But I do like Hawkinson. I like him a lot. You need a receiver. I watched a bunch of D.K. Metcalfe. I would be so angry if they took D.K. McKaffer 15. Good. There's no chance they're going to do it. There's no chance.

I'm totally in agreement with you. He is. He is, I have a comp for him, but I'm not going to say it. You know who it is. He's just a faster version of this player. He has no route tree. He looks like a baby deer half the time. Can't find his feet.

Can't find his legs. Now he's not like he doesn't have quick feet every once in a while. And apparently he looked like T.O. at his pro day. But I watched him. If you put him on tape, he ain't the dude. The dude out of that team is A.J. Brown, who is a dude. I'd love drafting A.J. Brown on the second. He wore number one at Old Miss.

Yeah, I know who you. The player at receiver on that team last year was not D.K. Metcalf. D.K. Metcalf is a first down, deep threat. That's it. One-trick pony right now. The dude is A.J. Brown. I think I had this conversation with J.P., maybe two weeks ago, and I said, I don't like Metcalf. I like Marquis Brown.

I like Paris Campbell. Campbell, to me, looks like Deshawn Jackson type. And the thing about Metcalf when you watch him, he's a chest catcher, not a hands catcher. Well, he makes these circus catches down the field, which is crazy. But you see all these catches coming back to the ball where he's got drops. Here's the thing with Metcalf. He gets one step and you're not running him down. He is insanely fast, and it transcends into the field when he's going vertical.

But he does not get off press well. He does not have a plan. He does not have an adequate route tree. What scares me the most about D.K. Metcalfe, honestly, they don't throw him the ball in critical situations. They don't throw him the ball in third down situations. They don't move him around the field. He played only outside and wide. Now, he played on both sides, but he's an outside, go get it kind of guy.

You can't win with that in the league. You have to be able to create matchups, and he's not going to be a matchup guy. Do you like the two little guys that I mentioned, Brown and Campbell? Yeah, like both the little guys that you mentioned. I don't necessarily know if I love him at 15. No, no, no, not at 15. Right now, I think both McShay and Kuyper mocked Paris Campbell to the Redskins in the second round. Yeah, I like Paris Campbell, but if A.J. Brown's there from Ole Miss, if he were there in the second and they had it,

and I bet you he'd be their pick. You know what I got to do? I haven't done it yet and maybe we'll do it right before the draft. I haven't given you my running backs for 2019. Oh, boy. I can just... That's one thing we're really not interested in right now. I know that, but I still want to tell you that right now,

the one guy I loved from the beginning of this year is Devin Singletary from Florida Atlantic. And I don't know where... You have told me that. I don't know where he's mocked. I think in like the second to third round range, but I love him. All right, what else did I have? By the way, what?

That told best player available, if they had a running back that was best available at 15, like by far best available, there's no chance they'd draft him. That would debunk that theory. Well, I think, you know, what Charlie Casserly has told us over the years, you get in big trouble if you draft for need. And there's obviously context. We've talked about this 100 times.

I get into this argument with Tommy, but you understand the context. And that is, if you've got a running back as the highest rated player on your board, and let's just say on a scale of 1 to 100, he's rated as a 93, but you've got a corner as the number 91 guy. You're going to take the corner, of course. But what you're not going to do is if the running back's 93 on your board and your next highest rated player is a 79, you're going to take the running back,

or you're going to try desperately to trade out of that spot. Yeah, I'm with you. Okay. And it goes, it changes per round. Like, in the first round, you can reach two spots. In the second round, you can probably reach four spots. And the third, you can probably reach eight spots, so on and so forth. You can reach a few spots.

Yeah, a few spots. And it's not necessarily per need. But not, you're not taking a B-plus player over an A-plus player. You're not. You need to place the player. You're not taking a B-plus player over an A-plus player for need. No, but if you're a 15, there's no way there's not a, there's an A-plus player. plus player at 15 and there's not anything

less than an A. A minus range. Yeah, okay. Fair. No, I agree. I don't disagree. You had three running backs on your roster, then you trade the pick. I would be very surprised if most NFL boards right now don't have

a non-quarterback as the 15th best player in the draft after Murray. I can't imagine that Locke or Jones or Haskins or any of them that there aren't 14 players minimum, much higher ranked than those players, which is why at 15 overall, if the Redskins end up taking a quarterback, I mean, hopefully they're right, but there's going to be,

there are going to be some defensive players available at 15, especially if some of these quarterbacks go higher than they should go. Yeah, the thing is, is with quarterback, it's worth so much. The position dictates that it's worth so much. So is pass rush. So you should take whatever rating you have on a quarterback and times it by 25% or 50% or add whatever

value to the position. What's the up value of a pass rusher? That's the next highest up value. Yeah, no doubt. That would be the next highest up value for sure. Because... And then, I mean... I want you to watch Montez Sweat

from Mississippi State. I did watch Montez Sweat. I like Montess Wet. He's a baller. I watched him, you know who I like? I like Dalton Reisner. He played left tackle at K State last year. He played everywhere up and down the line. A lot of people don't have him as a guard. He only allowed one pressure to Montez Sweat. Do you like sweat or Burns more from Florida State? Have you looked at Burns? I didn't watch Burns very much, so. Okay. But I like sweat a bunch. I like Ryzener. Rizner just won't.

fall of the second. I think one of the most fun things to watch last college football season was Mississippi State's defense, just as a whole. Yeah, they were also on defense. You know who I like is that safety that we're 38. Yeah, he's awesome. I know you're talking about. He's a bad mofo. They just hit. I mean, they hit. But the Redskins don't need a say. Well, they do need a safety. You're talking about, you're talking about, you're talking about

Abram. You're talking about the kid Abram. Yeah, Jonathan Abram. You can play him as a slot corner. You could? I think so. Yeah, I think you can play him down. He played down a lot as a slot kind of guy. You know, Maryland had a really good safety, Darnel Savage,

who I think is getting a lot of run now as a potential second round pick. All right. All right, buddy. I got to go anyway. Just tell everybody right now what you have on your podcast coming up and what you did this week so they can come listen. I did a D.K. Metcalfe breakdown. I did an AJ Brown breakdown a little bit. We're going to do third downs. I've been doing all the first down, second down analysis. We're going to do third downs. And then there's a really cool Tray Quinn video. He sat and watched a bunch of film with me. You should go and check out the video on Redskins.com. It's fun. It's really good good the stuff that Cooley did with Trey Quinn. Quinn's a good guy. Hopefully a really good player, too. He's going to be a good player, I think. All right. I'll talk to you later.

See what. All right. Thanks. All right, that was Cooley. And he'll join us at least once a week leading up to the draft. And listen to his podcast. It's everywhere you can get a podcast and he's been doing film breakdowns. Corvin, who is my son, who is sitting in and producing for Aaron today, has told me over and over again that he wants D.K. Metcalf to be the Redskins pick at 15.

And what have I told you? I've told you that I'm not a Metcalf fan. Right? Yep. You can speak. Yep. I do not like Metcalf, and I did not know what Cooney's film breakdown was, but it sounds like he doesn't like Metcalf either. Metcalf was a true indie combine sensation.

He just doesn't look like a football player when you watch him. There are receivers that just look much more natural as receivers. And Paris Campbell, if he is available to the Redskins in, say, the second round, he, to me, looks like Deshawn Jackson. He is a true game breaker. Quick word on scent bird. Sent bird's a luxury fragrance subscription service. It's a way to discover new colognes for you guys or perfumes for your girlfriends or wives without having to buy an entire bottle.

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your first month today that's only $7.50 for your first cologne or perfume go to scentbird.com slash KSdc use my code KSDC and you'll get 50% off your first month again that's scentbird S-C-E-N-T-Bird.com slash K is in Kevin, S-S-E-N-S-N-S-N-S-N-S-E-D-D-E-N-D-E-S-N-E-E-E-S-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-RD-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-W-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-W. What I said on Monday is what I believe today. There's no result tomorrow, no result on Monday night that would surprise me. I know that that is not going out on a limb with a big prediction, but I really feel after watching this tournament and watching these four teams play

that all four of them are capable of winning two games, even with the matchups they have. The matchup that I think will be most difficult is Auburn beating Virginia, but I think it can happen. I just think that Virginia is a team that can slow down fast teams. Most coaches will tell you that it's easier to slow down a fast team than it is to speed up a slow team. Auburn wants to run. They scored 97 against North Carolina, a team that wanted to run with them, and they

blew them out with great shooting and great guard play with Brown and Harper. They beat Kentucky in overtime with phenomenal guards. play with Brown and Harper. Brown and Harper combined in that game for 50 of the team's 77 points, but it is easier for Virginia to slow Auburn down, and it will be difficult for Auburn to speed up Virginia. You've watched Virginia, most of you have during the course of the year. You can't speed them up. You can press them. It doesn't speed them up. They can handle the pressure. You try to speed them up with pressure defense, with trapping defenses, it just doesn't work. Virginia's going to play their game. They're going to keep this game in the 60s at best. And I do think of the two

games, even though Michigan State's probably the team I'm rooting for the most, I think that the, if I were to say that out of the two games tomorrow, I feel most confident about one of the two games, it would be Virginia. But again, Auburn's totally capable of winning that game and then winning on Monday night. But I do think that Virginia, because again, the ability to slow Auburn down a little bit, I think Virginia has the best chance of advancing of the four teams tomorrow. The second game, the nightcap, Michigan State, Texas Tech, is, you know, right now the four coaches that are left in this final four are incredible. I was talking to Gary Williams the other day off the air, not on the podcast. And I said, man, the coaching in this tournament's been exceptional, like

the better coach teams have all advanced. And he said, you're 100% right. And all four of them. And he talked about Bruce Pearl, who he's known for a long time. And he goes, Bruce can coach. I mean, he's had, Bruce has had some issues. You know, he's had some various issues at Tennessee and other places. But Gary was like, he can coach. There's no doubt he can coach. And I think everybody knows that Tony Bennett and Tom Izzo are first-rate coaches and Chris Beard's proving it at Texas Tech. A school that had not won a tournament game since 2005 now has advanced to the Elite 8 and the final four in back-to-back years. It'll be interesting to see what happens when this tournament is over with Chris Beard and whether or not he moves on somewhere. But he's a great coach. Texas Tech has a great team and very good underrated players.

Culver is not underrated. He is a lottery pick by almost any, you know, any mock draft you look at, any college, you know, NBA projecting the draft in 2019. Jared Culver is a top half of the first round guy, but Moretti is a really good point guard. Mooney can really handle the ball and shoot it as well. Tark Owens, who transferred from St. John's as a fifth year grad transfer. basically narrowed it down last spring to Maryland in Texas Tech, and Texas Tech he went to, and he went to Texas Tech because he thought he could get to the final four with Texas Tech. And here they are, and he is a shot blocker Supreme, and he will have a couple of rim-rattling dunks that'll be as good as any you'll see in the tournament.

But there is Michigan State that they've got to go up against. Not what I would call Izzo's best team. It's not Izzo's best team. He may win a national championship with this team. It is a smart team, though, with a very good, high IQ, tough competitive point guard in Cassius Winston. And I don't think this is the most rugged or the most physical or the team that bullies teams around like some Mizo teams in the past, but it is still rugged enough. And we saw that against Duke. And I think we will see, two very tough defensive teams. Michigan State wants to run. Michigan State wants to take it off the glass and run. Texas Tech doesn't mind a faster-paced game. They're not Virginia necessarily, but they are very good defensively. This is a team that beat Michigan, you know, to a pulp. Michigan had six points with nine and a half minutes to go in the first half of that Sweet 16 game. And then they took Gonzaga out as well.

I thought Gonzaga was as talented as any team in the draw, and they beat them. The thing about Texas Tech, if you're really looking at them for the first time, because a lot of people don't watch them during the regular season, even though they were a consistent top 10 team for most of the year, they crushed people during the course of the season. They have crushed people in this tournament. They beat Michigan 63 to 44. They beat a very good Mac team,

a Mac champion in Buffalo by 20. This is a team that during the regular season beat Kansas by 30, beat West Virginia by 31. West Virginia wasn't that great, but they crushed some decent teams during the course of the year. Texas, who was playing pretty well at times,

they beat Texas by 20 late in the season. Very good basketball team. They went on the row, actually it was a neutral four game, and beat a good, tough Nebraska team by 20. They lost a Duke this year in a tough game. You know, in late December, Madison Square Garden, I think the game was, a competitive game, but Texas Tech's the real deal.

I have no idea which way that one goes, but I do have a smell test pick and two of them coming up here. So overall, the takeaway is, I would say that Virginia, out of the two games tomorrow has the best chance of advancing, but no result tomorrow or Monday night is going to surprise me, and it shouldn't surprise you. All four teams are capable of winning two games and winning the national championship. And if you want to say that sometimes you get to the final four after so many years,

like Virginia did, Auburn and Texas Tech new to the final four, that you're just happy to be there, well, then you would look at Michigan State. you would say this is a team that's always in the hunt, has been to plenty of final fours, and has not won a national championship since 2000. That was the lone national championship for Tom Izzo, been to a lot of final fours, the lone national championship for them, and the last big 10 team, the last big 10 team to win a national championship was Michigan State in 2000. Now, the last team that plays in the Big Ten that won a national championship was Maryland. They just won it when they were in the ACC in 2002.

All right, let's get to the smell test. Kevin looks where the John Q Public is putting their cash and does the opposite. It's time of the smell test. All right, I think my record for the tournament is 13 and 9 now against the spread. I was 1 in 4 that first day, had the 4-0 Saturday last weekend. I think it's 13 to 9 overall for the tournament. I think that's right. That might be wrong.

It might be 12 and 8. I think it's 12 and 8. Sorry, but whatever, it's winning. I'm up for the tournament on the smell test, either three or four units at this point. And I actually, you know, right now the smell test criteria of sort of anti-public plays applies to both games. tomorrow. Virginia is laying five and a half. The public is on Auburn. I think the recent impressions, and I've given out Auburn both of their last games against North Carolina and then against Kentucky, both as five and a half point favorites, or five and a half and then four and a half against

Kentucky. There are five and a half point underdog against UVA. I like UVA laying in the five and a half. It is the anti-public side. I also do believe, as I said before, that this is the one game where I could see Virginia frustrating Auburn, slowing them down like no one else has, and winning a 67-55 kind of a game in the first semifinal. So take Virginia, lay the five and a half. And then in the nightcap, Texas Tech is the right side. The public is playing Michigan State after they beat Duke over the weekend. I don't know that people believe in Texas Tech at this point, and I don't know why. I think they're an excellent team and a very well-coached team, and maybe the occasion of being in the final four ends up being too much for them.

I guess that's possible. They just don't seem like the team that's going to get rattled, though. I am personally going to root for Michigan State to win the game, but just by not more than two and a half. Right now that number is two and a half. You should buy it to three and take Texas Tech plus the three in that game, but for the purposes of this smell test, we go with the lines on Friday, and the line is two and a half.

Take Texas Tech plus the two and a half. So the two smell test picks are Virginia minus five and a half, and Texas Tech plus the two and a half. In my bracket, I had Virginia beating Michigan State in the final, and I think head to head with Aaron and Tom. I am now in the clear of winning the brackets, which I did not think what happened at the beginning. I usually lose the bracket stuff,

but excel more in the point spread stuff on a game-by-game basis. So Texas Tech plus the two and a half, Virginia laying the five and a half. I can't wait to watch both of these games. I know Duke's not in it and Carolina's not in it and Kentucky's not in it and Kansas isn't in it. The ratings aren't great for this final four. I think these are two really good matchups. Real quick word about launch workplaces in BCC.

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locations throughout the area and you can find all of those at launch. workplaces.com. All right, let's bring in Andy, Poland, who we haven't talked to in a couple of weeks. Perfect time to talk to you. We'll talk some final four here in a moment, but what a week, you know, it was with the return of Bryce Harper to Nats Park, and then the firing of Ernie Grunfeld. Tommy was on with me yesterday. By the way, I haven't said this on the podcast today. Read Tommy's column in the Washington Times today. It's exceptional.

I've said this to him many times. I think you feel sort of the same way. I don't think anybody in town does what Tommy does better than what Tommy does, and that is no one attacks the way he does in print with his, you know, in print. He just does it so well. He does it in short form, and today's column was brilliant. But what did you make of the way? week starting with Bryce Harper? Well, it's nice that they snuck it in as, you know, we were anticipating,

you know, one of the biggest baseball moments we've ever had here with the return of Bryce Harper. Not that it was as unexpected, but yeah, I mean, Tom nailed it. And this has been going on for a long time with Ted Leonces enabling Ernie to undercut the various coaches that he's had. And, you know, people have wondered, what was the deal there? I had a theory, I don't know if it's, true or not, but I'm sticking to it. I believe it's because Ted played pickup basketball in New York with Bernard King.

Come on. No, I mean, how else do you explain this? I mean, this isn't like the George McPhee situation where the caps were producing really good teams year after year and they built around a superstar Alex Aveskkin and it worked out well. This was a situation which

was a disaster for a long period of time. And how do you explain? Ernie Grunfeld staying for eight years under Ted Leonis when he seemingly was teetering on the brink when Leonis bought the team. You know what? I don't want to get into it because I got into it with Tommy the other day, and I am totally in favor of of Ernie being fired, and I've been, I felt that way for at least three years. But, you know, this wasn't a team over the last, you know, four or five years that was going 19 and 6. each year. You know, it was a team that had gone to the postseason four out of five years, and the two years that they weren't going to be in the postseason this year and in 2015-16 were injury-riddled seasons. And so he deserves to go. The bottom line is he had 16 years

to produce something a lot better, and he didn't, period. Period. And end of discussion. So I'm totally in favor of it. But the funny thing is, you know, when Tommy and I, I used to do that lunch with a legend thing, and we did Ted that one year, and oh, God, I mean, at times he was insufferable during that interview. But, you know, the one thing that I think I learned from him is that basketball is Ted's first love. You know, that's what he loves. I mean, he got involved in this thing to eventually own the wizards. You know, the caps, the caps were the entree to owning an NBA team because Ted loves basketball. And he's built a terrific hockey situation. And, you know, when you, going to his arena for any sporting event, any concert,

it's a first-rate experience. I mean, I think he does that really well, but the basketball team just hasn't been good enough. And he could have fired Ernie three or four years ago. The problem with firing him like four years ago was you were at the beginning of this John Wall-Bradley-Beal run, you know, but he missed much more often than he hit. Yeah. I mean, look, they, they had a rebuild. Ernie was able to, after the first Gilbert Arena's rebuild, flamed out, he had the opportunity to rebuild again. And you had the number one pick overall in John Wall, the number three pick overall in Bradley Beale, the number three pick overall in Otto Porter. That should be enough to get you into contention to contend for at least the Eastern Conference

Championship every year. And they weren't even doing. You were never going to win the Eastern Conference Championship with LeBron in the East. That was never going to happen. But you could have competed to get to the Eastern Conference Finals. Well, but they would have had John Wall not gotten hurt against Atlanta. I mean, you can say that too, because they would have. They were on their way to being in the Eastern Conference Finals against LeBron when Wall got hurt, you know, in the Atlanta series. Yeah, I mean, that's all true. But I also think that Ted, maybe he's saying, I've got a clean slate and whatever happened in the first go-round with Ernie under 8.000.

I'm putting that aside. I'm not going to be concerned with it. I'm only going to be concerned with how I deal with him. But even still. And look, the other part of it is, and Tom is right. I mean, Ernie has gotten relationships with certain people in the media, and I'm sure he's developed a relationship with Penn, as we say in the trade. He's a Hamish guy.

He's a very likable guy, you know, and I can understand it. Yeah, he always was. Before we get to the final four, you know, there's a lot. a smoke now around Josh Rosen to the Redskins. You know, Kooley and I were just talking about this. To me, the two biggest, take Kyler Murray off the table. Josh Rosen is a bigger, is a bigger jolt,

a bigger boost marketing-wise than any other quarterback they could draft in the first round. Really? I do believe that. You did so? Yeah, I do. I'm not sure I do. I mean, we've already seen him play. I've seen him play against the, you know, well, I guess he didn't play against the Redskins in that game. But I think having already seen him play in the NFL,

there's not the intrigue that Kyler Murray could, in fact, be the- No, no, no, I'm taking, I'm taking Kyler-Mory off the table. Kyler-Mory, of course, would be the biggest, you know, it would be the biggest move since they traded up and drafted RG-3. I'm just saying, if you assume Kyler-Murie goes number one, that, Josh Rosen put side by side with Dwayne Haskins, Drew Locke, Daniel Jones. Josh Rosen is the bigger marketing hit. Yeah, well, I mean, Haskins would certainly be a good. Haskins is close because people have seen him play. Most Redskins fans never saw Drew Locke or Daniel Jones play.

They didn't hear about him until, you know, they started to focus on the draft. But they know who Josh Rosen was, and they knew Josh Rosen last year. Yeah, but no matter who comes in here, you know, unless you're going to bring in Tom Brady for the last couple years of his career, that place is going to be a ghost town this year. I don't think there's really anything that can get the fan base excited, other than if they rip off, you know, four out of their first, you know, five games get wins. Other than that, it's going to be just like last year.

Nobody's going to these games. I don't disagree with you on that. I think it's so far beyond just adding a big name or a big, a new quarterback, that it's going to have to come with a year's worth of winning or a super start, you know, a six-and-one start with the quarterback looking like he's going to be an all-pro quarterback. It's going to have to take something like that. I agree with you. By the way, on Rosen, for the Jewish community in town, how big would that be? Like, I mean... That would be enormous. I mean, that would... We've already even talked

about it at our Jewish Sports Hall of Fame meeting. I can't tell you who's been inducted or who's going to be inducted this year. But yes, that's already gone. You know, and I wonder, I wonder in all seriousness what kind of business impact, you know, trading for Josh Rosen would have. The Redskins have lost a lot of business corporate ticketing, you know, corporate ticket relationships, corporate sponsor relationships. I've thought about that. I mean, Just observationally, it would be, I think that there, I would guarantee you that Dan Snyder has thought about what Josh Rosen being the Redskins quarterback could mean. And you do realize that he's half Gentile, right? Yes, yes. He's what I am. We've drafted him. We took him in the third

round, so we're good with him. Also, you know that Dan, Steyer's Jewish. Well, no, that's what I'm saying, I would think that Dan would have just this sense of what it could mean, you know, from a business standpoint to have him as the Redskin starting quarterback. I can't speak for the entire Jewish business community, but I do know people who are in it and very successful and hate Dan Snyder. Right, of course, yeah. You know, so I don't know how much that's going to help either. But hey, look, in terms of that, it probably can't hurt.

You know, his upbringing is very interesting. I identify with it because you know I'm half. And so, and, and he, he, he had a Jewish father, but a Christian mother. I think, I think the mother was Catholic. I could be wrong about that, but, but a Christian mother. And he went to Catholic schools. Yeah. You know, he went to an all Catholic high school. Josh Rosen. I mean, how much more can you, so yeah, I don't, I don't, I, and I don't know how much he would embrace it. And I also, that's another thing that's critical of him is how much does he embrace football? Does he really love football? I think that's open for debate too. I don't know them at all, but that's some of the things I hear and read, as you do. Yeah, I read the Mora quote

earlier in the show, read it to Cooley too, because I remembered it last night that Mora had said something critical about Rosen a year ago. And it was from an interview with Peter King. And I'm finding it right now. This was the quote. He needs to be challenged intellectually so he doesn't get bored. He's a millennial. He wants to know why. Millennials, once they know why, they're good.

Josh has a lot of interests in life. If you can hold his concentration level and focus only on football for a few years, he'll set the world on fire. He has so much ability and he's a really good kid. And that's been the discussion about Rosen. How much does he love football? How much, you know, do his other interests in life? How much will they get in the way of him, you know, focusing on just football?

He comes from affluence. Will that be an impact? He's had injuries, including concussions. And what happens if he has another serious concussion? Will he decide he doesn't need football? So all of that is relevant when you're evaluating him? Also, look at this organization. Is this an organization where it's easy to concentrate on just football?

there's always so much other stuff going on during a season that the laser focus that guys from other organizations seem to be able to get, probably they can't get here. Right. Yep. All right. You wanted to talk real quickly about the final four and an anniversary date of the championship game. We kind of missed it last week. But the game that Georgetown lost to Villanova is so incredible in so many ways. This was the last game before the shot clock. Now, they put in initially a 45-second shot clock. So even though they'd gone back and looked at the tape, there weren't that many possessions where Villanova held it for more than 45 seconds, but it was a factor.

And they were able to hold the ball. They were able to put together an incredible shooting performance. They shot 78 percent and frustrate what could have been maybe the greatest team of all time. I know they didn't have Michael Graham, who'd been a key player the year before when Georgetown won the national championship. But you look at that team that Georgetown had with Patrick Ewing as a senior and Reggie Williams, who was a freshman on that team and a great player and became the number three pick of the draft when he finally graduated in the 87th. That's an unbelievable assortment of talent and what Villanova was able to do. And I mean, they had pro players. You know, Ed Pigney had a good NBA career.

They had a couple of guys who played in the league. But that is one of the all-time accomplishments, I think, in the history of basketball. And it was a real changer in the way the tournament was looked at. And also, you've got to remember, that was also the first year of the 64 teams in the tournament. It had been 48 prior to that or maybe 53 the year before. But the fact that it was 64 was the only way Villanova got in. And they got in as an eighth seed and won the national championship against the team. they'd lost you three times during the regular season.

It was one, it was such a memorable game, you know, during a stretch of great finals, you know, that started in 82 with Michael Jordan shot to beat Georgetown and then the NC State over Houston in 83. Then Georgetown, not in a buzzer beat or beat Houston the following year in the NCAA championship. And then you had the Villanova Georgetown Final. You know, one of the things that's interesting about that game, and I just pulled it up as you were talking, Villanova shot 78% from the floor. Georgetown shot 55% from the floor. They played a good game as well.

The other interesting thing about that particular run for Villanova is that they had, you know, they went in as an eight seed going into that tournament. They had lost early in the Big East tournament. during the course of the year against Georgetown, they had lost both games against Georgetown. But that particular year, they played Maryland in the regular season at Cole Fieldhouse, and Maryland beat Villanova that year at Cole. And then they faced Maryland in the Sweet 16 that year in Birmingham, Alabama, and beat Maryland 46 to 43 in a game that turned out to be Lent.

Bias' worst game of his career. He shot three for 15, if my memory serves me, serves me correctly from the floor, had a brutally awful game for him. And he was brilliant in the game that they had beaten Villanova during the regular season. And Maryland still only lost the game by three. It was the worst game of his career, and Villanova needed it to be the worst game of his career, or they would have never gotten out of the Sweet 16. And then they went on and they beat North Carolina. in the Elite 8, and then I think it was Memphis. Was it Memphis in the semis? I think it was Memphis in the semis.

Memphis had to vacate that. A couple of other things. Also, with that 78%, I just came across this a little while ago. Villanova had 17 turnovers in that game. Did they really? Hold on. I pulled up the, I had the box score there a second. I didn't look for the turnovers.

I looked for the turnovers. Well, 17 turnovers. Wow. And they won the game. Well, they only had 28 field goal attempts for the game. They made 22 of 28, but they got to the free throw line. They got to the free throw line. And the other thing about that Maryland regular season game, that was a game that was nationally televised by NBC. Now, this was after the split. You know, Packer, Billy Packer had left and gone to CBS. a few years earlier, so this was Dick Enberg and Al McGuire, and Mark Plansky has to come in and guard Len Byers, and Al McGuire says on TV, we'll have to send our apologies to the Plansky family,

because Len Byes is a great player, and he's about to abuse their son. And, bias had a dunk in that game over Ed Pickney that I've seen, you know, on YouTube in recent years that was unbelievable. He went off. They beat him that day. what's funny about that day, Andy, and I swear to God this happened. Maryland, they weren't the only team that did this, that you played sometimes back-to-back games on a weekend. That particular weekend, Maryland played Notre Dame on the Saturday at home and beat Notre Dame and then

played Villanova the next day and beat them. Two non-conference games. Two non-conference games in January. I want to say it was January or late February, and they played back-to-back days and beat both of those teams at Cole. And Maryland was a really good team that year. I mean, they had those back-to-back years where they lost to Illinois in the Sweet 16 and Villanova in the Sweet 16. And I felt like Maryland was better than both of those teams that they lost to. But Villanova went on after surviving Maryland and Len Bias' worst game of his career in the tournament to win the national championship. scheduling was so much better. I mean, think about that.

You're playing those two teams back-to-back, Notre Dame and Villanova, and then you got an ACC schedule, which has you play in North Carolina and Duke twice a year. I mean, things were so much better scheduling-wise. So much better. But you would never, I mean, it's been years since teams played back-to-back games on a weekend.

You know, until you got to, I wonder if part of that was just preparing for the ACC tournament, you know, because the ACC tournament, yeah. There's that, and you've got to realize 84, ESPN's only five years old. So the big money games are weekend games televised by networks. So the networks were more interested in putting those games on Saturday and Sunday. So that's the way it worked. I guess the school gets a cut of that.

Isn't that the way that works? Yeah. So listen to this, because I just pulled up Marilyn's schedule from 84-85. Here it is. on Saturday, January 26th, they played Notre Dame. On Sunday, January 27th, they played Villanova. But listen to the week leading up to it. The Saturday before, they went to Nevada, Las Vegas, and played UNLV,

and then had a home game on Monday night against Holy Cross. So they played four games in mid to late January that were non-conference games. Now, back then, the ACC wasn't, you know, you had Georgia Tech in the league, so it was an 18 league. Florida State was not yet in the league. So it was an 18 league. So you only played 14 conference games. So you had to have non-conference games. They also had Old Dominion and Towson on the schedule in February. So they had it, but what a week. You know, UNLV, Holy Cross, Notre Dame, and Villanova. Yeah. And lefty used to get killed for a lot of things. Oh, he's scheduled. At that same time, John Thompson's playing.

St. Leo, and you know, let's be scheduling Notre Dame and Villanova back to back. Well, listen to this. That year started, Maryland played Kansas. They had Tennessee, West Virginia, Alabama, Ohio State all on the schedule before the end of December. And then once the season started,

in season, in addition to the ACC teams, they played Dayton, who was good back then. UNLV, Notre Dame, Villanova, non-conference. No, left the, lefty, Lefty, you know, and he liked to play the big boys, too. Yeah, he did. He scheduled UCLA at the beginning of one season.

He was like that. That's incredible when you look back. Yeah. The back-to-back thing is crazy. All right. Yeah, that was a phenomenal game in one of the great upsets in the history of sports, really. I mean, no. I was there.

I was there for UPI. I remember reading Rudy Markske's column in USA Today that day. and he'd interviewed Brent Musburger and Billy Packer, and they both said, yeah, we've got a lot of material planned to keep viewers interested when the expected blowout happens, and it never happened. You know what's interesting about that over the years when Big John would talk about that game? He said one of the things they knew going in playing Villanova versus playing Memphis is that Villanova wasn't going to be afraid. They were familiar with Georgetown. They played him twice during the regular season. not play him that year in the Biggie's tournament, but played them in two relatively tough,

difficult games during the regular season, and he knew he would have much rather played Memphis State. And I think that was the Keith Lee, Memphis State team. And would have much rather played a team that would have been more intimidated by Georgetown, because Georgetown was an intimidating team in the 80s with the full court pressure and Ewing and the whole thing. Yeah, and also if Memphis had won that game, they would have had to vacate because that's what they did. Right. Their final four appearance was vacated because they cheated their butts off. Yeah, they did.

That was, uh, that we, I think Gary beat Memphis. Did Gary lose to Memphis at BC or beat Memphis? I think he beat Memphis and lost to Virginia in the elite eight with one of his BC teams in 83. That might have been, might have been 84 or two. I forget. All right. Uh, thanks. Good to talk to you.

All right, enjoy the games this weekend. I'll talk to you soon. Thanks. All right, that's Andy. Appreciate that. Appreciate Cooley coming on. Enjoy the podcast over the weekend. We'll be back Monday talking about the two final four games.

Potentially, who knows, talking about a Josh Rosen trade. I will tell you that if there is a Josh Rosen trade like over the weekend or a big move, we will come in and do a podcast immediately if something like that happens. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. and review it. It really helps us if you do that. It doesn't cost you anything to subscribe, but any platform that you listen to, I think pretty much most of them you can subscribe. It'll get delivered to your phone without you having to go out and reach out for it. And reviewing it really helps us as well to review it and rate it if your podcast platform allows for that.

That really helps us on the advertising front as well. Thanks to Corbyn. He did a great job today. with the podcast. Thanks to Cooley and to Andy. I'll be back on Monday.