The Kevin Sheehan Show - Credit Goes to Dan Snyder

Episode Date: May 14, 2020

Kevin and Thom today with thoughts on a USA Today Wire story that credited Dan Snyder for a changing Redskins' culture. The boys also picked their favorite sports broadcast booth of all time. Thom weighed in on Urban Meyer's comments the other day about Dwayne Haskins and they spent time debating ESPN's Top 74 all-time NBA List. <p> </p><p>Learn more about your ad choices. Visit <a href="https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices">podcastchoices.com/adchoices</a></p> Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You want it. You need it. It's what everyone's talking about. The Kevin Sheehan Show. Now here's Kevin. You're listening to The Sports Fix. All right, I'm here, Tommy by phone. Aaron's somewhere in the Netherlands somewhere out there. I don't know where he is or what he's doing. He's actually helping a lot, Aaron. You're doing a great job. Getting this show edited, getting it out on all of our platforms. And in doing some social, media around it. So we're going to be back to normal one of these days and all be together in this studio. I don't know that you'll ever be back in this studio. But one of these days, Aaron and I will be back in this studio together. We're getting started a little bit late today, and that is 100% my fault. I sort of got locked out of my studio here because I didn't bring my key card to get into the building, and nobody's here, basically, because all of these places have been abandoned in terms of people during normal working hours. Everybody's working from home.

And as it turns out, that key card was right here in the studio. I just didn't bring it with me. I thought I had lost it. Anyway, we're in, found the card. We're ready to start the show. How are you today, Tommy? I'm doing okay, Kevin. My life isn't an hectic as yours.

This morning. This morning was hectic for me. You're right. I had to run an errand. And when I got back, I was like, oh, my God, where's my key card? And then all hell broke loose up to that to try to get somebody here to let me in so I could get back into the studio. But we were able to accomplish it. So there you go. There's not much news. I've been doing a lot of, you know, what we call sort of makeup segment, you know, days, you know, where you have a couple of things here that you've been thinking. about for a slow day and you break that out today Tommy it was what's your favorite broadcast booth of all time and and the only reason it even occurred to me to do it today is because there are odds on the Monday night booth the Monday night you know you did see that Tessitore and Bougar McFarland are out thank goodness oh my God what it what I mean I actually like Bougar McFarland Like, I think he looks like a... Oh, I think he was an idiot.

No, he's not an idiot. He is an idiot. No, he's not an idiot. He's the guy who came to Washington and said, what a great job Bruce Allen was doing. That was idiotic. And, well, only an idiot says that. That was an idiotic thing to say, but I don't think he's an idiot. It was the most idiotic thing you could say.

God, I forgot about that. Nobody's been in the attention to anything else. I forgot about that. And he talked about how exciting. the atmosphere was at FedEx Field. You're right, he said that too. He did. What kind of idiot says that?

The biggest idiot in the world. You know what? He's sort of an idiot. Yeah, a little bit. I actually, I actually, you know, fans couldn't stand them. I'm a much, I've had a much bigger problem with Joe Tessator, who to me is a, you know, Friday night whack conference, you know, play by Mountain White. West play-by-play guy. That's what he is. This Monday night thing just didn't, he just didn't match

the moment ever. But Lewis, you know what? The Monday night thing, this is the one thing that I used to say is this is ESPN. This is the biggest sports network in the world. And this is the best you can do. You mean all the people that work for you. And this is the team you come up with. Yeah, I know. And what have they been trying to do? They've been trying to basically pay Peyton Manning whatever he wants to do it. Yeah. And he's turned it down.

I'll be honest with you. I don't really care about this stuff that much. I think fans do to a certain degree. The Monday Night game is a game that I will watch for one of two reasons. And usually one of these two reasons exist. A, it's a really good. good game and a good matchup, or B, I've wagered on the game. Those are the two reasons.

And more times than not, one of those two things is in play. Sometimes both of them. And that makes it a lot of fun. And I couldn't give a crap who's calling the game. But it is one of the high-profile spots. It's not as high-profile as Sunday night football anymore. And, you know- No, it's not.

And you know, I think what happened for a segment of the population, that is still breathing, you know, just barely breathing, but still breathing. I think Monday Night Football, as opposed to any other broadcast in football, there's a certain expectation of entertainment that comes with the booth because of the generation that grew up with Don Howard and Frank. And I think, you know, for a segment of the population, Monday night represents something different.

I think I agree with you, but I think the larger percentage of people now didn't grow up with that. They're on their phones, they're in their phones. They're not really... I mean, I'll be honest with you. I don't think that my sons really care that much about the broadcast teams.

I'm sure they don't. Ever. Normally, I don't either, but I am trained to have an expectation on Monday night football of something special in the broadcast booth. And what ESPN put out there was a long way from special. I don't know, and I don't think it can ever be replicated. But, I mean, come on. I mean, have you given up finding talented people to be entertaining and informative at the same time? It's really strange. You're right. How difficult it's been for them. Although, let me just say, I'm a big Sean McDonough fan. I thought Sean McDonough and Gruden were great, even though they didn't get along. I thought Toriko and Gruden were outstanding. It's been very recently. Because Gruden was a hook. John Gruden was definitely a reason people watched. He's by far in a way the biggest example of that in recent memory on that.

that broadcast. I mean, people of all generations really got to kick out of listening to John Gruden call that game. But I don't really care that much, I guess, is, I'm with you on that. I just know when I hear somebody that shouldn't be doing it. And it's all, you know, the ironic, the ironic thing is, and it's probably because he's too popular now, probably makes too much money, your boy would be really good on Monday night. So it's funny because I've had a lot of conversations with Scott about this before. You know, I've had a lot of conversations with him over the years about a lot of different things in addition to what he's been doing, which he does very well. And, you know, this new, and it's not even new anymore. You know, what are we in year

four of this new version of his sports center, this standalone, you know, entity of sports center, which is unique for them. They've never done this really before, is killing it. I mean, Tommy, it is killing it in the ratings. Now, I think since this pandemic started, sports programming is off. But prior to that, you know, he was, I mean, he was regularly beating Jimmy Kimmel and Jimmy Fallon in that male 18 to 35, 34 year old demo, the young demo, which they all want so desperately. I mean, killing them on cable. You know, so he's done really well. I actually thinking, I think he'd be fine at play by play. I don't think it would be what he would be best at. He does it well in golf because he's really got, you know, a passion and he knows

the golfers. But I actually think that if he ever wanted to do, you know, sort of a true sit-down, you know, sports, but also other things talk show that he could do that. Like, I think he could host the Today Show. Like, I think he could easily do that or Good Morning America. I don't think he'd ever want to do that, but I think he could do that. I think for the Monday night broadcast, you don't need an ace play-by-play guy. You need a guy who can do play-by-play, who can then play off as his broadcast partner. Yeah. That's what you need.

So the odds right now out there, they put, Bovada put all of the odds on what the Monday night booth makeup is going to be. And it's actually the way they did it is they took individuals, gave them odds of landing one of the chairs. So it wasn't like, you know, the combination of Steve Levy and Louis Riddick. It was each one of these individually in terms of their odds of landing a spot in the booth. And Lewis Riddick and Dan Orlovsky are the two favorites for the analysts. They actually have equal odds at plus 225. And then right behind them is this guy. Pat McAfee, who's really sort of... Count me in on Pat McAfee.

You know what? I kind of like him, too. Now... He's a little bit offbeat. He's a lot offbeat sometimes. I think he'd be very entertaining with just enough football knowledge. Count me in on him. I think he'd work shot.

He's plus 300, so he's just behind those two guys. McAfee, by the way, for you, people that don't know, big on Barstool was the punter, remember, for the Colts, for many years. And he started doing some games this year, including that Thursday night ESPN broadcast for the college game that he was a part of. And I thought he was pretty good. I think he knows the game. And I think he's, you know, just wacky enough and at times funny, not all the time. Try's really hard to be funny, sometimes too hard. But, you know, I'd be willing to give him a shot.

I mean, again, I don't care that much. The first play-by-play guy that gets mentioned on Bovada is Steve Levy. And so I've been hearing sort of a Levy, Riddick-Orlovsky, you know, potential booth. I mean, there are a couple of other names, a lot of other names, including John Madden's, you know, at 70 to 1. He's not coming back. But I like Steve Levy. And my bet is that they end up at ESPN slash ABC going with, you know, some of their own that they believe are good at this rather than rolling the dice on somebody like Pat McAfee. I think you're right. Now, so this was the, you know, this sort of led me into thinking about one of these things that have been on my list of things to do on a slow day, on a rainy day.

And so we took calls for. They're all slow days, Kevin. I know they are. Although it seems like we always have some news. But the, my favorite booth, Tommy, any sport, all right, television, by the way, not radio. Because if we asked for radio, then everybody was going to give us their. hometown, you know, radio baseball crew, or everybody's going to give us Sunny Sam

and Frank, you know. It was, you know, it was a broadcast, national broadcast crew for, you know, any sport at any level, college or pro. My all-time favorite was Pat Summerall in Tom Brookshire.

They were so good together. And that is, you know, it's your heyday. It's the beginning of everything that I was following in sports the 70s. Summerall and Brookshire, Summerall and Madden ended up becoming obviously legendary

as a pairing at CBS. But before that, Summerall and Brookshire were the team. I mean, you know, after obviously Frank, Dandy Don and CoSell on Monday Night Football. But I loved Summerall. Brookshire had a great sense of humor, quick, funny, knew the game,

had played the game, and their chemistry together. I mean, Summerall, I think, is just one of these guys that's so good that he had chemistry with everybody. You know, I don't know if you noticed that about him over the course of his career. He had chemistry with Brookshire, chemistry with Madden, chemistry with Ken Venturi on golf, chemistry with Tony Traibord on tennis. You know, everything he did, he did so well and had a great sort of rapport with whomever was the leader. analyst, but that was my favorite booth. I mean, there are others that I really liked, but can you

think of one that jumps off the top of your head as your favorite? Well, let me ask you this. I could have this wrong. Didn't Uby Brown used to work with Marv Albert at one point? Probably, but Hubees never, I mean, you know, somebody called in with that and said they loved Hubey Brown, and I saw Hubey with whom? Because nothing jumped out. Hubey did basketball with Brent Musburger on radio, which is phenomenal. He's done with – he's worked with Marv Albert. He's worked with Breen. I think he's worked with everybody.

But if you're telling me that Hubey and Marv – see, I don't even know the answer to that. I don't even know the answer to that. I don't even know the answer to that. I mean, because Hubey Brown is such a special broadcaster to me. I mean, because I like – I like, you know, as much as I like, you know, humor and – being entertained. I like to learn when I'm watching. I like somebody who I feel like is teaching me something.

Yeah. And Yuby Brown always felt that way to me. Tim McAarver and baseball always felt that way to me. You know, in football... And very serious. Yeah. Yeah, but in football, I'm not sure who that is, actually. Yeah, I think, well, I think you've...

I guess it. Go ahead. No, I think there have been a lot of guys in football. Yeah, they're having. And a lot of pairings where, you know, you've learned. I mean, you know, Madden was entertaining, but Madden knew the game, too. Yeah. You know, right now, I don't know if anybody's learning more about the game than they have with Tony Romo.

You know, Romo's been phenomenal. You know, to be honest with you, the Troy Aitman Joe Buck pairing, I'm a, Not a huge Joe Buck fan. I think he's good. I understand why he's risen to the level that he's risen to. I actually liked his father even more. I loved the Jack Buck Hank Stram pairing for many years, you know, on radio in particular. But I think Troy Aitman's always done a good job, and I never felt like he was anti-redskinned or anti-rest of the NFC East.

I never felt that way. But, yeah, I mean, like a lot of people called in with, you know, Dick Enberg, Al McGuire, Billy Packer doing college basketball. That was a legendary broadcast team for college basketball on NBC for many years. When NBC had the tournament and NBC was really the face, television face of college basketball before CBS jumped into it. A lot of people brought up Kurt Gowdy and Al D. Regattis, Tommy, from... I remember those, the old AFL broadcast. old AFL, and then they called NFL games.

After the merger, they called the Redskins Dolphins Super Bowl 7 game. And, you know, a lot of people have really enjoyed Al Michaels and John Madden and Al Michaels and Chris Collinsworth together in recent years. I've always been a big Al Michaels fan, but I think I said this last year on the podcast. I think I mentioned this. I think Al Michaels has lost a little bit of what he. he had, a little bit of the fastball from previous years. But Summerall, to me, in terms of play-by-play guys, his understated way, letting the action breathe, incredible tone and sort of authority.

And every partner he worked with, he was, you know, they became the number one team and really a legendary team. Obviously, Summerall and Madden for years. And Summerall and Brookshire were a very well-known broadcast team before Madden came along. But the most famous broadcast booth of all time, and it's really not even close, is Gifford, CoSell, and Meredith. Yes. Yes. There's no booth that ever turned into bigger stars, crossed over, you know,

into basically popular culture, not just sports culture. they were superstars, and Monday Night Football became the number one prime time show because of them. I mean, Bars used to, Howard Cosell was so hated, but must watch, that bars would have contests where the winning patron would get a chance to throw a brick into the TV when Cosell would speak. Right. I mean, I mean, when he came to town, when they came to town, it was a big thing. It was a big thing that lasted for days. Yeah, you're 100% right.

I mean, it was a show. It was, they were rock stars. You know, they came into your town and they needed police escorts and they needed security. And, I mean, I can remember being an RFK Stadium as a kid for a Monday night game, you know, against the Cowboys and having the three of them in that big booth. Remember where the RFK television booth was? Way up top. And it was really, it was something else that crew. You know, we didn't mention any baseball crews, but a lot of people really like John Miller and Joe Morgan together. And a lot of people loved Al Michaels and Jim Palmer together on baseball on ABC. And before,

that, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Keith Jackson did games with Jim Palmer. I could be wrong about that. Palmer was great, though. Yes, he was, and he still is. Still is. On Orioles games. There's a guy you learn about pitching from when you listen to Jim Palmer. Yeah, yeah, definitely. And he's fearless, too. He'll say what's on his mind.

A lot of people, you know, have thrown out Vern Lundquist and Gary Danielson, just because they have on CBS with the SEC, you know, over a long period of time, called some of the biggest games in college football. But for me, college football will always be Keith Jackson and, you know, either Ereper Segeon or Frank Broils, you know, going back to the 70s, 80s into the early 90s. And I'll just give you one more. John McEnroe and Mary Carrillo both, but when they're together, they're phenomenal. But McEnroe and, you know, now in recent years, it's been Chris Fowler, you know,

doing all the tennis from the U.S. Open and Wimbledon, and it's a great pairing. McEnroe's really, really good. Mary Carrillo's always been excellent. and I liked Dan Hicks and Johnny Miller. CJ threw that out this morning, and I loved that pairing. I thought Johnny Miller was great, and he was really polarizing, you know, not to the CoSell level, but I'm telling you, you either hated or you loved Johnny Miller because he was in your face and was fearless, would say anything about any golfer after any shot, and I think Dan Hicks was always the perfect match with him.

All right. Can you think of it? Thacker and Packer. ACC fans from the 70s and 80s. They were great before Billy Packer blew up. Actually, he was doing both. He was doing the ACC games, and he was doing the national games as well. Quick word about mybooky.orgie.ag.

Now, I know a lot of you are like, there's no games. Why do you keep pushing mybooky.orgie. Well, a couple of reasons. Number one, there's another big UFC event this weekend. So you can bet on everything on this UFC card, over under, on submissions, KO decisions, every other type of bet that you can possibly ask for. Plus right now at mybooky.ag, they're offering a risk-free bet up to $49. They're giving you a free bet on anything up to $49.

But you've got the MMA action. You've got also an online casino that they have. I would just tell everybody with respect to the online casino, just be careful in those online casinos. You can get sort of just in front of that blackjack table online, Tommy, and go for hours upon hours. And it's a bit dangerous doing that. But they've got all of the futures bets out there for the NFL. They've got Super Bowl odds. They've got regular season MVP odds. They've got all of the over-under numbers on the NFL teams. The Redskins right now are five and a half. And I think the only team that's lower is Jacksonville at five.

They have all of the division odds, the AFC and NFC championship odds, the coach of the year, the offensive rookie of the year, the defensive rookie of the year, all of that is out there. If you want to know the defensive rookie of the year lines, how about that? Let me just pull that up real quickly and see what that is right now. Defensive rookie of the year. It's got to be Chase Young's got to be the favorite, right? Oh, yeah. Chase Young, a heavy favorite, big-time favorite for defensive rookie of the year at MyBooky.ag. He's plus 190. Isaiah Simmons is next at plus 500.

So Chase Young is a big-time favorite to win the defensive rookie of the year. Joe Burrow is the favorite to win the offensive rookie of the year. So it's top two picks in the draft. But anyway, MyBooky.org.A.G. stay safe, stay sane from the comfort of your home. Sign up right now. Go to my bookie.ag. Use my promo code, Kevin D.C.

K-E-V-I-N-D-C. They'll match your deposit halfway all the way up to $1,000. If you put in $500, they'll give you $250, put in $100, they'll give you an extra $50. So it's getting free money to play just for supporting this show. With MyBooky, you bet you win. And most importantly, when you win, you get paid. All right. You haven't had a chance to weigh in on the Urban Meyer comments on the Bucky Brooks Daniel Jeremiah podcast called Move the Sticks.

And for those that didn't listen to the show yesterday, I will read them to you and then let, you know, I'll give you my quick reaction, but I'll let Tommy really have at it today. But Urban Meyer said it really ripped the organization, ripped the Redskins. Hardly a big review. for any of us. But it's interesting to me because he was just there last Thursday night for the schedule, you know, presentation for the schedule unveiling. Like he and Matthew McConaughey, Brian Mitchell and Fred Smoot, were all part of this big show on Redskins.com, and maybe even it was NBC Sports Washington, I think. But on this podcast with Bucky Brooks and Daniel Jeremiah, both of whom I like a lot, I think they're both good analysts for NFL network, he said, quote, I hate to be so simplistic on this, but you better surround him, Dwayne Haskins,

with some really good players. The NFL's amazing to me. The teams draft a quarterback. They put them on a very bad team, or there are a lot of culture issues. I don't want to start throwing stones, but I do know I talk to my guys. I talk to a lot of these players. He said, so it's the quarterback's fault now, right? That the coach got fired in week five. They were in complete disarray, and it's the quarterback's fault. I wish college was that. easy. For some reason, it's not the quarterback's fault. It's always the coach's fault in college. If you want Dwayne to be a great player, you need to surround him with really great players. You need to surround them with a really elite culture. He said, you know, never mind the fact that their

coach got fired. The place is a mess. Is a mess, not was a mess. Just point that out. There's this going on, that going on, this going on. A lot of stuff I heard from behind the scenes. I've got several players there, yet it was Dwayne's fault. And then he also said, and I can't find it here in this updated story because it's like they took it out or maybe, you know, it's in an older version of the story. But I read it yesterday in the podcast. He's talking about the Patriots and he's talking about how the Patriots, the reason that they can pick behind everybody else and don't always end up with the best players, they've got

an elite culture. You know, they've got a great culture. And that's not what they have, meaning. the Redskins have and, you know, then says with Dwayne, you know, you've got to surround him with good players. So I'll just tell you netting it out for me. Number one, I thought he was, he didn't need to be that defensive of Dwayne in Dwayne's performance last year. Again, I mean, Dwayne Haskins ended up really trending, you know, positively at the end of the year. He had an incredible last game and a half. I mean, he threw for 394 yards, four touchdowns and

completed, you know, well into the 60. percent tile of passes in his last six quarters of football. So I didn't really think that he needed to defend Dwayne that much. And then I think the other thing is that, you know, there are examples of quarterbacks that haven't needed elite culture or elite players around them. You know, we know that, you know, Kurt Warner took a bad organization and not a great team to a Super Bowl, that Peyton Manning elevated a franchise, that Aaron Rogers has had, for the most part, average, you know, occasionally just slightly better than average, but average talent for the most part around him since he got there. You know, those are what the elite quarterbacks really do.

So, you know, but bottom line, you know, tell us something we don't know. The organization is obviously, you know, a hot mess and has been. The question is, will it be moving forward or not? Look, this is just validation of Leverro's rule, where I say if things look bad from the outside. I said this yesterday on the podcast. I said this is exactly what you're going to say. Go ahead, say it. If things look bad from the outside, they're usually much, much worse behind the scenes.

What did I tell you, people? And for Urban Meyer, to basically, I'm thinking is on the Redskins payroll, I'm thinking, he's not doing all this stuff for the Redskins for freight. You know, so for Urban Meyer to rip them and to basically expose them, not that they needed exposing, but when you have an insider with a level of credibility that Urban Meyer had validating it, I think it really hits home. And even though it's tell us something we don't know, it's when you have somebody with his credentials, say it, I think it's another awakening.

Yeah, I mean, given the fact that there seems to be some sort of relationship between him and the team, now Scott Lynn, when Zabe and Scott had Urban Meyer on their show last week, Scott asked him, like, are you a consultant? Are you getting, and he said, you know, no. He said, but I've, you know, I've got players here. And I've gotten to know Dan, you know, whatever. So a lot of people's follow up on what I said yesterday was he's really referring to Bruce. Allen and what the culture was, which I responded with, okay, that's fine, but that doesn't mean that it's not going to continue to be a hot mess.

You know, again, if you forced me to wager, Ron Rivera's going to have great success and turn the Redskins around, or you have to wager on the opposite, that Ron Rivera is going to fall by the wayside just like every other great coach that came here, Marty Gibbs, Shanahan did. I would wager on that, that it doesn't work. out. Now, it doesn't mean that I can't be optimistic for a half second like I was when Shanahan got here, like I was when Gibbs was here, you know, and hoping that Snyder changes his ways. But, you know, there's been a theme here, people. The theme is that the owner's been terrible. And it wasn't just Bruce Allen. I mean, it was about the 10 years before Bruce Allen

got here. Yeah. For God's sake. Yeah, the theme is it doesn't, it hasn't worked for anybody under this owner, period. You can't debate that. You know, when people say, well, things are different now, and I would say, well, he's been on the job for four months. They're not playing football. I would hope things are different now. I mean, how much screw it up can you do in a short amount of time like this?

How much interfering can you do when you just hired this coach and are probably paying him a ton of money and right off the bat? You're going to stick a hot poker up his ass? I don't think so. Yeah. You know, Urban Meyer, look, none of us were surprised by what he said. Nobody around the league is surprised. I mean, I do get a kick out of those of you, and it's a very few,

it's a very few, that get really, really upset when we rip the organization and the owner, like, don't you know he wants to win and all he's ever wanted to do is win and he spent all the money and Bruce fucked him and before that, Vinny and no, no, no, no, no, no. He's the constant. He's the one over 21 years that has been a part of an organization that basically for him is won one one playoff game. If you want to count the one in 1999, have at it. But really, he didn't have time to mess anything up by the time he took over the team.

before the 99 season. He tried to. He didn't want Brad Johnson to be the quarterback. He wanted to undo that trade, which meant that they wouldn't have been in the playoffs that year because Brad Johnson had a phenomenal 1999. But come on, people, I mean, in 21 years, one playoff win. One. I mean, it's been bottom feeder organization in all of sports. Has it been the worst? I don't know. You could debate it. It's certainly somebody could make the case that it's been worse. than Cleveland or worse than Jacksonville or worse than, you know, some baseball or you can't say the Clippers anymore. It's been certainly in the bottom five or six, you know, and... Kevin, you need to get your mind right, okay? I read a wonderful story on one of these wonderful

fan websites that you were talking about in our last podcast. You know, those great websites who, you So with the fans who were so plugged in, and the headline of this, let me just say it's USA Today, but it's a fan site they run called Redskins Wire. It operates under the illusion that it's actually credible. And then they run an headline like this. Dan Snyder deserves some credit for the recent culture shift in Washington. Then there's a story talking about, even though it lays out all the criticism of Dan Snyder, and how it warrants it.

He said, he's also deserving of some praise that might come his way during the team's rebuild and culture shift. That praise is coming. Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't write that. And I like some of these fan websites. You know I do, because I think they're actually, you know, it's not that they're plugged into the team, but nothing gets by them in terms of.

of what's going on and they're passionate and all those fansites. Some of them are good, some of them aren't. I don't, I'm not familiar with this person. I just pulled up the story that you're referring to. I don't know this person, Zachary Neal. There's no... Is it a real person, or is it a phony person? I have no idea. I can tell you this. There's no way in hell that you would get me on radio to say that Dan Snyder deserves some credit for the recent culture shift in Washington because first of all, I don't know that there's been a culture shift.

I'm hopeful that there might be a culture shift. He talked about culture on the day of the Happy Thanksgiving introductory press conference for Ron Rivera. I think he recognizes that the culture under Bruce Allen wasn't very good, but the problem I've always had. And the reason I'm not jumping head first, like some of you have, which by the way, of you always do. And I'll be the first to admit that when they hired, when they hired Mike Shanahan and even Bruce Allen in 2010, Tommy and I were doing the show together, I was all in. And I was like, I was lecturing people, if you recall, you know, in that first season that they wanted to see, you know, change so quickly. And I said, look, if you can't handle it,

go antiquing with your wife, you know, stop watching football and we'll let you know when it's safe to come back in. But the real men are going to hang in there and watch this thing change. And I was wrong, you know, dead wrong. I like Ron Rivera. I think Ron Rivera's a really good hire for them. And I think he's a, you know, a leader and a respected guy. But so is Mike and so was Joe. And so, you know, so was Marty. And, you know, I don't know that there's been a culture shift. I'm hopeful that there will be. But here's the problem I've all. always had when I want to get more optimistic than I am. And that is the belief that I have that there is a true personality flaw for the organization and for the owner. And it is the,

it's the combination of incredible arrogance and not having any idea what he's doing. And because of that, I don't think he'll ever, ever admit that it's been him, that it's his fault. I think every step along the way, you know, it was Spurrier's fault. It was Vinny's fault because he hired Zorn. It was it was Kyle and Mike's fault. They were terrible people. It was now finally to the realization, oh my God, Bruce has been effing me here for the last several years. He's really screwed me. You know, he brought this terrible coach back, kept him for five and a half years. It was Bruce's fault. And I just think that's a personality flaw.

And I also think you get to a certain age. And when you're not self-aware, you're not all of a sudden going to become self-aware. I think if you haven't developed some level of self-awareness. Especially when you have the money where you don't need to change. That's right. That's part of it. That's part of it. Now, you know, somebody with that kind of ego has definitely been embarrassed here. You know, he doesn't think it's his fault. And that hashtag Bruce Allen probably emboldened him in the feeling that it wasn't him and that people weren't, you know, sort of, you know, they weren't going after him for the failure. But he has to, to have been embarrassed to look out into his 75,000 seat stadium and on occasion see no more than 15 or 16,000 people in the stands, more than half of whom were rooting for the opponent. That had to really be a major, major wake-up call. That's a little bit different from what we

saw in previous rock bottoms, you know, not to mention, and we've mentioned this before, just the sinking television ratings. But again, the thing that always worries me is I always think and believe that he doesn't believe he's responsible for any of it. And that means that, you know, he'll be, he won't resist jumping back in if he feels like it isn't going well. I think one of the things you've said, and I've sort of heard a little bit, is that while this isn't an ultimatum from him, but that there is some sense that Rivera needs to prove

pretty quickly that he's competent and that it's heading in the right direction. You know, if they were to have a four and 12 season this year and he, you know, he fucks around with the quarterback situation and puts Kyle Allen in there and he stinks too, you know, if Dwayne isn't any good, you know, that could be problematic for him. The way, the way to hold off Dan Snyder. is to be very successful early and then become very popular. I mean, and in Ron Rivera's popularity will be his strength. You know, if he turns this around quick, he'll become like a Redskins icon just like that. Fans will love him, and it will give him the power that he needs to fight Dan Snyder

if and when they have to struggle over internal politics. This article also pointed out what I call the mob boss Car Wash. It talked about how Snyder deserves credit for his public actions in response to the virus, how he moved quickly to suspend travel for scouts, how he opened up FedEx Field to the Maryland government so they could use it for a testing site. And it also mentions how the Redskins Charitable Foundation donated to a 150,000 meals to families in PG County. No one has ever really questioned Dan Snyder's community commitment or charitable commitments.

And he's done a lot of things I know. I've heard behind the scenes, personal, personal, compassionate things that he's done behind the scenes. Okay. But I call this the mob boss Carwise. Why? I mean, this is like the mob boss. This is like the Corleone Foundation, you know, creating a $100 million grant. Yeah.

You know, charitable grant. You know, this is the mob boss who built a wing on its hospital. Yeah. You know, like this absolves them of every hit they've ever worn. Carmine the Car Wash Galante in the name of. So, I mean, this has nothing to do with what we talk about. No. In terms of Dan Snyder dishes.

Nothing. No one's calling in the question Dan Snyder's commitment to community or charity. Let me tell you what I don't care about. And it doesn't mean that I can't appreciate and say, hey, that's really great, you know. And it's better that he's, you know, a charitable person than not a charitable person. Yeah. Yeah, it is. But I'm a fan of the team.

I don't care about that. It doesn't mean anything to me. You know, all of that stuff when you haven't won a playoff game since 2005 doesn't mean anything. It's nice. I mean, from a human being standpoint, great. But I pay attention to the only reason he's a part of my life is because he owns my favorite football team. And the only reason that they're my favorite football team is because at one point they were really, really good. And I want him to be good again.

That's all I want. I don't give a shit about any of the other stuff. I just want them to be good. And I don't know that it can happen, but I do like Ron Rivera. Look, the bottom line is they could have hired, you know, another stooge of a coach that we didn't have any confidence in or in no name that, you know, we probably would have felt right from the jump was going to get trampled by the owner. But, you know, the fact that Ron Rivera took this job and, you know, and seems to have some level of audits. autonomy. I'm all on board with that for right now, and I hope it turns around. I do. I wouldn't bet on it, but I'm hell of a lot more optimistic today than I was four months ago or five months ago or six months ago. You know, when Bruce was still here, much more. You know, there was still. Let me just say, USA today, you've got somebody with your name on it writing some embarrassing material. I know you don't particularly maybe care about journalism much. anymore, but this is embarrassing.

Yeah, I have to, I mean, it's a very short story here. There's not, I mean, it's the title. The title of the story is probably the worst part of it. Yeah, I mean, there's not a long list of things you can praise Stan Snyder for, at least football related. There are none. No. Name one thing that you could praise them for from a football standpoint.

Professional standoff. Professionally, how could you give me one area, give me one compliment. You know, the fallback is like you mentioned. He really wants to win. I disagree with that premise. If he really wanted to win, he wouldn't do what he does. He wouldn't have fired Marty Schottenheimer.

He wouldn't have taken the RG3 side against his head coach. That's not somebody who really wants to win. No, but there is nothing. There's nothing that he can put on his resume to be proud. out of as a football owner. Nothing. I mean, he's a good salesman, and in his role at selling his organization, when he's desperately needed a player or a coach, he has delivered a few times.

He delivered with Gibbs. He delivered with Shanahan, even though he messed it up, and I think he's delivered with Rivera. That would be, I guess, the one compliment I would give him that, you know, when he reaches these, you know, low depths of just depression with respect to the franchise, he's been able to pull a rabbit out of his hat. You know, he then, you know, basically starves the rabbit, you know, but he's able to pull a big time higher every once in a while. Out of the hat. Okay. There you go. That's the one.

All right. Can we talk about this NBA list, which I started to talk about and got to a little bit yesterday on the show, the top 74 on ESPN, which, you know, when I was going through it yesterday, I said that you were going to be really incredibly upset about one particular ranking. This is getting a lot of, you know, of course, there's nothing else to talk about. So this is getting a lot of run on social media among sports fans and NBA fans, basketball fans, and basketball fans. particular. And what's funny is it's like, I think they just did a list like this two or three years ago. But it's the top 74, by the way, because this is the 74th season of the NBA. But I went through it in more detail last night, and I have additional thoughts that maybe I didn't share yesterday on the podcast, and I want to get to those. And I know you didn't see this until just before the show,

so maybe you haven't had time to go through it closely enough. But the, the, Here are essentially my Cliff's notes on this. Number one is that Janus Atenticompo should not be number 27 on this list. It's a joke. Okay, he's accomplished nothing. He was absolutely embarrassed last year by Kauai Leonard and the Toronto Raptors in the Eastern Conference Finals. Is he going to be one of the great players at some point down the road? That's possible. And by the way, he's an exceptional talent. I would never dispute that, but he does not deserve to be in front of, well, let me just start with this one. Willis Reed, who came in 60 on this list. He does not deserve to be in front of Isaiah Thomas. Come on, people. You know, he doesn't deserve to be in front of John Stockton. Are you kidding me? This is a joke. The Greek freak should not be number 26. on a list of the 74 greatest players of all time. It just shouldn't be.

Secondly, and I'm not a fan personally of Isaiah Thomas, but if somebody said, is Isaiah Thomas a top 50 player of all time? Well, of course. Is Isaiah Thomas a top 25 player of all time? I would say, well, yeah, of course. Is he a top 20 player? Yeah, now you're in the neighborhood. But yeah, he's probably somewhere around, around.

20 or so. He's number 31 on this list. You can hate Isaiah Thomas personally all you want. Isaiah Thomas is, along with Alan Iverson, the two greatest small men in the history of the game since I've been watching. Tommy will probably hit me with Bob Coozy. Well, no, Tiny Archibald. Archibald's not even on this list, but Archibald was a great player. He led the league in scoring and assist when he played for the Celtics. Yeah, he did not make the top 74. So I have a problem with Isaiah being there, because I think Isaiah is a better player than that. And I think that's a big whiff.

Kauai Leonard's at 25. So somebody might say, well, why do you feel that way about Janus and not feel that way about Kauai Leonard? Well, because Kauai Leonard's been a two-time finals MVP. And Kauai Leonard embarrassed Janus last year in the Eastern Conference finals. So Kauai Leonard at 25, I don't have a problem with him being there right now, but he's moving up the list. And by the way, Janice is going to move up the list too. I'm sure of it. He's going to figure out a way to win eventually.

The next problem I have, and it's a smaller issue. But Charles Barkley at 23, there are players ahead of him, including Scotty Pippin. And I'm not going to rail on Scotty Pippin here because Scotty Pippin Tommy, in terms of a lot of the follow-up to this, was really criticized. A lot of people think Scotty Pippen just jumped on with Jordan. Scotty Pippen, in terms of a combined offensive and defensive player, is one of the great players in the history of the game when you combine offense and defense. He's at 21 on this list.

I don't know if I'd have him that high. I do know that I'd have Charles Barkley in front of him. Me too. Who would you rather have on? Exactly. Barkley or Pippen? Come on. Barkley. But people, people, if you saw Charles Barkley in person and you recognized what a great rebounder he was at six foot four.

Right. No matter what he was listed at, he was six four. Yeah. And he was usually the best rebounder on the court. I completely agree. But by the way, I want to just emphasize this. I don't think Scotty Pippins outside the top 30. And a lot of people are like Scotty Pippen shouldn't even be on this list. Well, you're insane. Scotty Pippin, if you had the list of the greatest combined offensive and defensive players in one body, Pippin's on the short list of that conversation.

He's one of the great defenders in the history of the game. And by the way, let's just point out, Jordan didn't win a title until Pippin got there. And when Jordan left, unlike Cleveland, when LeBron left and they basically won 12 games, they won 55 with Pippin in 1994. You know, the year after Jordan left. So I think Pippin is in the range of where he is, maybe high, but I'm not putting him in front of Charles Barkley. I'm just not going to do that. Where's Julie serving?

Okay, so that's the next thing I was going to get to. So you and I have had this conversation in the past, and you, and by the way, most people have really mocked me when I said years ago on our show that I think Julius Irving is a bit overrated. Coach Thompson came in that day, and I'll never forget. He said, boy, what you smoking? And he said, Julie, he's serving overwritten. I said, hear me out.

I said, he's a Hall of Famer. He's a great player. He's one of the all-time greats. But, you know, a lot of people have over the years put him in the category of, you know, Michael, Magic, Bird, you know, Kobe, etc. And I've always said he's not in that category. And he never has been. He was a great players, a Locke Hall of Famer.

one of the more influential players in the history of the game. And I've never had a problem with Dr. Jay. I love Dr. Jay. But I always said, you know, he's closer to 20 than he is 10. It was sort of, I think, where we landed on that debate and you laughed at me. Well, he's 15 on this list. He's 15. So I think maybe we're sort of both right on this.

Then comes... I want to point out, Will it will have. is also a two-time NBA finals MVP. Right. Yes. Yes. He's a two-time NBA. So 73 and the other one?

Yes. Both against Will Chamberlain. Even though he barely played in game seven. Yeah. Okay. Which I watched. By way, Kevin. Yeah.

I watched again the other night. The next bit of controversy came with 14 and 13. 13 on this list. Kevin Durant's 14 and Steph Curry's 13. Now, I don't have a major problem with this. Now, I think if I had made the list, I probably would have flipped them. I would have had Durant one ahead of Curry. And the reason I would say that I'm a bigger fan of Curry, but Curry's been shut down before. Durant's impossible to shut down. You know, Durant can only, you know, injure himself or miss shots. He's one of those, like magic. was sort of a unicorn. Durant's the same thing. He's unique and he's dominant in one of the great

scores, you know, already through his career of all time. I don't have a big issue that I'd probably have Durant one spot ahead of Curry. I agree. I agree with you right there. I mean, look, but here's the problem, though. Curry's been a more influential player. Yes, he has. There's no doubt. won without Durant, but then he sort of couldn't win, you know, he won without him, and then he won more with him. But, you know, he, I don't know, I, I think Curry, I've said this a million times, so I'm being repetitive. For me, it's the greatest combination, and I know you think Marevich is the answer, and that's fine. It's the greatest combination of shooter and ball handler in one body that I've ever watched in my years of watching basketball.

Isaiah, by the way, is in that conversation, which is why he's criminally low on this list at 31, if Curry's 13. But Curry was, you know, at a time, as you would say, they're just shooting it. And Isaiah didn't play in that era. I think if Isaiah had played in that era of long-range threes of in-transition pulling up from 33 feet, he would have been Curry before Curry because he had great range and was a great shooter. Not as great as Curry, but as a ball handler just as great. But I think Durant is a better all-around player, but just barely.

Now, the next thing on my list, Tommy, you know how big of an Elijah one fan I am. And I just think that when it's come to the center conversation over the years, I just always think that he doesn't get his due. He's 12 on this list. And most people would say, Jesus Christ, I mean, he's top 12 all times. I just think he is ahead of Shaquille O'Neal, and I think he's ahead of Tim Duncan in my own, in my mind. I don't think he's ahead of Tim Duncan. I do.

I'm glad to see Tim Duncan ahead of Shaquille O'Neal. I was glad to see that, but I don't think, and I'd have no problem if Elijah won't, was ahead of Shaquille, because I think Shaquille O'Neal was an underachiever. But I think Tim Duncan's ahead of Elijah one. Well, for me to get him into the top 10, I had to put him ahead of two people, so I would have had him ahead of both of those. I think Elijah Juan at his peak was a better player than Duncan at his peak. Elijah Juan is arguably, now you'll say Russell, and that's fine.

But in my years of watching NBA basketball, he's very, you could easily argue, the greatest defensive center in the history of the game. and was during his peak uncheckable, uncheckable, multiple ways to. I just, I love Elijah Juan. I never think he, on these lists, gets as much credit as he deserves, but, you know, he's 12 on the list.

It's pretty good to be 12 on the list. Now, the top 10 is, you know, it's fine, the top 10. Number 10 is Shaquille O'Neal. So Shaq is at 10. And then you get, and then you, where's my list here? Damn it, I just had it two seconds ago. Kobe is number nine. Kobe's nine.

Duncan is eight. Bird is seven. Wilt is six. Five. Five is magic. Four is Russell. Three is Kareem. Two is LeBron and one is Michael.

Okay, go ahead. You were, you were talking. I didn't hear everything you said. So tell me what's wrong. with the top 10. When you mentioned Wilts, Wilf is number one and Russell's number two. I mean,

people don't want to include Wilf Chamberlain in the conversation because he did things that are so unbelievable basketball fans can't conceive of it. They can't conceive of a guy averaging 50 points

in season. You know, it's like an inconceivable thing for them. It's not just the 50, Tommy. It's not just the 50. It's that he averaged over 50 and also simultaneously averaged near 26 rebounds a game. Yes. Yes. While playing 48 minutes almost a game.

Right. You know? So he gets taken out of the conversation because he was so astronomically good. I mean, like, like, like, like Will said to Jordan once, you know, for you, they change the game to help you. For me, they changed the game to stop me. That's it. I don't think I've ever heard that quote before. Yeah. And that's right. That's what to talk. I mean, and I know I'm fighting and losing battle, but Wilk will always be number one to me. And Russell right behind them with number two. The interesting one for me is

I watched Kareem's entire career, a great offensive player. He averaged 11 rebounds a game, and he was 7 foot 3. That's almost criminal. That's... I mean, that's ridiculous. Not to mention... 11 rebounds a game. First of all, he was 7-2, right? I think he was 7-3. 7-2. Careem was 7-2, always, I think, always listed at 7-2. two. I, you know, it's funny that you bring up Kareem. I know what the numbers say, but I, and I thought Kareem was a dominant player. I'm not about to say what I said about Dr. J. But I don't, there's something about Kareem, too, that him being number three on this list and the number one center,

it doesn't jive with me. You know, like when I think of my favorite center, which is Elijah Juan. I'm not going to put him ahead of Kareem because of the numbers. But, you know, Elijah one basically averaged, you know, nearly five blocks a game, but blocks shots a game. He's like in the fours for like the peak of his career. You know, I don't think that Kareem had more than two seasons where he averaged more than four blocks. Well, to be fair, you know, they didn't start counting recording block shots for a long time while Kareem playing. I forget when they started it. I mean, because they'd ever recorded during Russell's career.

They just didn't record those statistics. Elijah won average, my fault, Elijah Juan averaged 4.6 blocks a game in 89-90, averaged over four blocks a game four times in his career. That's a lot of blocks just so people understand. Now, from a rebounding standpoint, Elijah Wan was at 11.1 for his career too. But, you know, a lot of those rebounding numbers that Russell and Wilt had, I think, started to come down, Tommy, in part because shooting percentages started to go up. Am I right about that? Why were those rebounding numbers so outrageously high in the 60s?

Well, yeah. I mean, that is part of it. But, you know, it was also, I mean, because centers were played inside almost almost all the time. then. I mean, that's why they got so many re-po, but yeah, shooting percentages got better as the years went on. And that is the more, the

less missed shot to less rebound. So there is some, there is some validity to that. Yeah, and... But Kareem played, Kame played in that era. Kareem played against Will's at the end of his career. He played against

Willis Reed and Bob Winnere and those guys at the end of his career. He averaged 11.3 rebounds a game. He should have dominated. You and my father are on the same wavelength. My father just thinks wilt's the greatest of all time. It's not comparable. And it really is remarkable to look at his numbers

and to understand that in the first, I think it's the first nine years of his career. First nine years of his career, he never averaged less than 30 a game and never average less than 22 rebounds a game. Get that through your head there. All right. He went, points, here are the point totals.

37.6, 38.4, 50.4 and 61, 62, 44.8, 36.9, 34.7, 38.9, 30.1, and 33.5. Those are the first nine years of his career. His rebounding numbers, 27 a game, 27.2, 25.7.7, 24.3, 22.3, 22.9, 23.5, 22.3, 24.6. Do you know that it wasn't until his final four seasons of his career, where he's in his mid-30s that he averaged less than 20 rebounds a game? Tommy, by the way, the point totals would have been higher had he been just a decent free-throw shooter rather than a horrible free-threw shooter. No one, I said this this morning. Tell me if you can think of a comparable here. I don't know that any individual player in a professional team sport has ever had statistical,

you know, has had numbers that have been so much different than whoever is second best statistically. You know, we're not comparing the players here. I don't know that there's ever been the disparity statistically between Wilton everybody else in another sport. Well, there has been, and this comes to mind. It's remarkable that he's a forgotten man, but it's hard to believe. And this only comes to mind because I'm reading a book about him. But Babe Bruce. Babe Bruce was hitting 59 home runs a season when nobody else was hit in 20.

Right. Yeah. Bay Bruce. Bay Bruce numbers were Will Chamberlain-like in terms of the distance between him and the next closest competition usually. He just dwarfed everything that came before him. And Wilts was the same way. And, you know, I went back and researched this one over the course of Will Trayvon's career, his entire career,

because people say, well, who did he play? He didn't play against anybody. He played against 14 Hall-Fame Center in his career. 14. I did 14. 14 guys who played Center who wound up in the Hall of Fame. Yeah, well, you know, obviously you've got him number one and you've got Russell too. Working, you know, towards number one, my beef really is, I'm sorry, but Magic Johnson's better than number five.

I get laughed at by my kids when I try to tell them that Magic Johnson was a better player than LeBron and a better winner than LeBron. And look, I'm starting to understand the LeBron James great. I don't like LeBron. You know, I've never been a fan of LeBron's. There have been moments where I've been, you know, awestruck. You know, I think about that first series back in Cleveland when they played Golden State and he had Timothy Mosgov and Amman Shumpert and Matt Delafidov on his team. And he nearly beat the Warriors and they won two games and he was just brilliant.

And, you know, I don't know, there aren't many examples of a guy leaving a team that was in the Eastern Conference finals and won 60-some games. and the team wins 13 games the next year. LeBron is on the Mount Rushmore somewhere for me, but so is Magic. And Magic, you know, here at number five, I think there are three players, Tommy, that have made their teammates, have improved their teammates play, made everybody around them better more than any other three players that I've ever watched. Magic's number one,

Birds number two, and yeah, LeBron would probably be number three. You know, that's the list of the greatest, you know, making the team great. And I just don't, I don't get why Magic's 5. I mean, you know, Russell's in front of them, Karim's in front of them, LeBron's in front of them,

and Michael at 1 is fine for me. I know you want to go with Wilton in the two centers, and, you know, certainly the greatest winner of all time in Russell. Jordan's number one. I don't know where I'm going with number two, but I got LeBron behind Magic somewhere on this list. Okay, I can't seem to because I'm using my phone. It won't let me get past like 10 on this list. So I want to ask you a question. Is Walt Fraser in the top 74? Yes. Yeah, Frazier was, I want to say he was 39 on this list. Wow, I'm surprised. They got them that high.

Reed is 60 on the list. Well, again, that's ridiculous. I mean, it should be the other way around. Frazier's 39 on the list. And Walt Fraser will tell you that he got, we'll tell you that. What about, what about Don Havletek? Yeah, 33 on the list. He's up there. Okay.

Yeah, he's a forgotten guy, too. But see, to me, McCale's at 36. To me, McAil was a better player than Hablicek. Oh, not to me. Not to me. Dave Cowens on the list, right? Cowens is on the list. He's way back on the list somewhere.

I know I saw his name on this list. He can't be ahead of Woolfreet. Cowens. What about Leverro? Leverro. Cowens is 66. Marevich is 68, by the way. Earlman Rose 64.

I'll give you one. that I had a problem with. I can't believe I forgot to mention this. Bob McAdoo's on this list at 59. Now, I don't know where McAdoo belongs on the list, but I know he belongs on the list in front of Vince Carter and Ray Allen. I know he belongs on the list in front of Paul Pierce. I'm sorry, Bob McAdoo in his heyday with the Buffalo Braves. If you're thinking Bob McAdoo when he won the titles with the Lakers

when he was in his mid to late 30s, That's not the Macadoo that lit up the NBA in the mid-70s. Macadu, and I don't have a problem really with Manu Genoobli being ahead of him, because Genoblee really was a great player and a great winner. McAdo at 59, I've got six, seven players in front of them that shouldn't be there. Macadu was Kevin Durant. Yes. Before Kevin Durant.

Yeah. He was a seven-footer who was drilling it from 30 feet out. He wasn't seven feet, was he? He was 611, 610. Okay, okay. But I get the point. Here's something, two more things on this list, and you can then ask me anything else you want, but I don't want to forget these. Number one, Walton's at 48. And I said this Tommy this morning, tell me if you agree with me. He's the biggest what if on this list. Because if he had played a career healthy, he might be number one. He wouldn't be any worse. than number five or six. Walton, most basketball people, most real basketball people will tell you, he was as gifted, as talented as any big man that's ever played the game and the greatest passing big man of all time. Yeah.

I mean, you don't have to convince me. The 77 Portland Trailblazers are one of my favorite teams of all time. And to go back and to watch Walton run that team from center. I mean, the way he passed the ball, I mean, the way he went after the ball for rebounding, I mean, yeah, I mean, Walt is one of the great what-if, absolutely. Last thing, and then you can fire away any more observations or questions you have. I get into these arguments with the few people that remember the bullets like I remember the bullets. I've always thought on these lists that Elvin Hayes should be ahead of West.

Wes Unselled. And I think you think the opposite, which is fine. And he is ahead of Wes Unselled on the list. Elvin Hayes is 44 and Unseld is 50 on this list. Do you know that Elvin Hayes, and I didn't know this, a caller pointed this out, or somebody tweeted it to me, do you know that on the all-time career scoring list for the NBA that Elvin Hayes is still Number 10. Ahead of him, Moses Malone, Shaquille O'Neal, Wilt, Dirk, Jordan, Kobe, LeBron, Carl Malone, and Kareem. All nine of those players ahead of them, they're all in the top 19 on this list. Elvin Hayes is number 44.

But let me take it a step further. On the all-time rebounds list, career rebounds list, Elvin Hayes is still number four behind Wilts, and Kareem, ahead of Moses, ahead of Duncan, ahead of Malone. I was shocked by that. I knew that Elvin Hayes accumulated unbelievable numbers during the course of his career because he played a long time

and my God, he played like 48 minutes a game. Like, he never came out. He was a true Iron Man. But he's the fourth leading rebounder of all time and the 10th leading score of all time. The criticism of Elvin Hayes is that, number one, he was not a great teammate. He was definitely a sort of a self-involved player.

But the other criticism, which is totally fair of Elvin Hayes, is that he didn't play his greatest in the biggest of circumstances. He wasn't very good in the 75 finals against Golden State. Rick Berry completely outplayed him and the bullets. That's one of the biggest upsets in NBA history. They didn't win a game. They got swept by the Warriors. and Elvin Hayes wasn't very good.

In 78, when they won the title at Seattle in Game 7, A, he didn't have the greatest of series. B, he fouled out at Game 7. He was on the bench when the key moments of that game took place. For 12 points and fouled out. 12 points, eight rebounds, and fouled out of Game 7 in the postseason that year. And so that is legitimate criticism of the Biggie. By the way, you know, in this game,

exists on YouTube. He played a game against McAdoo in the 75 playoffs before they played the Celtics, before they played the Warriors. And I think McAdoo had 50 and Hayes had 48 in the game. They beat Buffalo in a seven game series, beat them in seven. Actually, you know what? I've got the box score right here. Elvin Hayes in that game, oh, my fault. It was the next game Macadoo had 50. Elvin Hayes had 46 in this one. But, What a matchup that was, McAdo against Hayes, you know, in a series. Oh, yeah. But Elvin Hayes is a top three to five power forward of all time.

And no one ever talks about him in that way. No, he is a forgotten man. Very forgotten. And if in this list was based in part on numbers, and Elvin Hayes is the fourth leading rebounder career all time and 10th leading score, which is really blew me away. I mean, I knew he had big time numbers. I didn't know that he was still that high up on the list.

Anyway, that's all I got. What else you got on this? That's all I got, buddy. Okay. It's always fun to debate this stuff. There will probably be five more lists over the next month that we'll have a chance to talk about. You wanted to mention something about Tyson. Well, there's been a lot of publicity.

Mike Tyson's been posted some workout video. that have impressed a lot of people on social media who were convinced that if Mike Tyson came back at the age of, I think, 54, he'd be a great fighter. Because he looks good in punching the hand mitts that guy used when he looks very good, punching the hand mitts of his trainer. You know, when no one's hitting him back. You know, that's when he looks good. I just remind people of a couple of things. The last time Mike Tyson fought was 15 years ago, and he lost to a literally a stiff named Kevin McBride.

Okay, the year before that, he lost to a stiff from England, got knocked out in four rounds by Danny Williams. I was there for both of those. I covered most of Tyson's post-prison fights, and there is no, even given the bad state of heavyweight boxing, Mike Tyson can't fight. He can't fight anymore. Okay, so stop it.

And stop. What it illustrates is you have a generation of boxing fans who don't recognize good fights anymore, don't know what good fighting is. So they see Mike Tyson on a video punching, you know, some handmits, And I think, and it's, he looks powerful. He looks quick. You know, but again, no one's hitting him back.

You know, it doesn't mean anything. I mean, it's absolutely ridiculous. You know, I mean, this is going to sound crazy. But Mike Tyson, Mike Tyson wasn't, is it fair to say that he really, to me, isn't on that short list of great heavyweights? Like, I mean, so many heavyweights were much better. Like, I mean, like you said, Tyson towards the end of his career wasn't very good. He was like something we never saw before, and it's hard to say he's not on the short list. But I think Lennox Lewis could have beat him in his prime.

I think that Larry Holmes in his crime could have beat Tyson. I think Lennox Lewis definitely could. Yeah, so, I mean, and obviously Joe Lewis, Muhammad Ali, I think Joe Fraser would have beaten Tyson. I think Foreman, at the age of 45, could have beaten Tyson. Yeah, so, Ali Lewis, Frazier Foreman, you've already said Lennox Lewis. You haven't mentioned, you know, like guys like Marciano or Dempsey. You know, I don't, I can't weigh in on that.

Who are we forgetting from more recent times? Larry Holmes was the champ for many years. Was Larry Holmes better than Tyson? I don't know. He might be. I mean, I tell you what, Mike Tyson struggled with

taller fighters. Big, big men like Lennox Lewis. Yes. Yes. I mean, he went, he had, you know, he won three titles

when he was young. The third title, he had to fight Tony Tucker for 12 rounds, and he didn't look good doing it. And Tony Tucker was like six, three or six four. Larry Holmes was six foot four.

He was, was a big guy with the best jab in the history of boxing. Well, Buster Douglas beat him because he was just a big man. So much bigger man than Tyson was. That was the most obvious thing about that night. It was like, my God, Buster Douglas is a big dude. And he wasn't scared when he walked in the rain. Well, that was the big part of it.

There were a lot of guys who lost to Mike Tyson before they ever stepped in the rain. Yeah. And I don't blame them, to be honest with him. But, I mean, stop it. Okay? He can't fight anymore, and you don't want to see him fight now. And it's just a sad commentary. You know, this is a generation of fight fans that actually thought Mayweather versus McGregor was like an epic fight.

When it was a big con job. You want to see a really entertaining fight? Go watch Lyle Foreman. You convinced me to go watch that at the beginning of this pandemic. That is an all-timer. God, that fight was wild. Available on YouTube. Five of the most exciting rounds ever.

And somebody, a couple of people pointed this out to me on social media, and I noticed that when I was watching it, I'm surprised Ken Norton didn't punch CoSell, because CoSell must have mentioned a half-dozen time that foreman had crushed Norton in two rounds. Right. Yes. I mean, you mentioned it once, and then that's it.

Yeah. But he kept saying it. He just kept bringing it up. I'm surprised Teddy Norton didn't slap him. Real quickly, if you're listening to this podcast and you have a chance to rate it or review it, do that for us, really helpful for us. Listen to me on the team 980, 6 to 9 a.m. Also, the podcast for that's available, for that, hold on, three, two, one.

The podcast for that is available also at the Team 980.com by downloading the Team 980 app. Last thing real quickly. So Mack McClung, the Georgetown player, who was, you know, highly recruited, had a, you know, an incredible high school highlight reel with an incredible vertical leap. He's transferring. Georgetown has just been losing players left and right here. And I don't know what the state of Patrick Ewing in Georgetown basketball is. You know, Ewing, I've watched Georgetown under Ewing for three years now. He's got a 49 and 46 overall record.

He was 15 and 17 last year. He hasn't been to the tournament. And it doesn't look very promising next year in year four. Hasn't finished better than sixth than the Big East. And he's finished eighth twice. I don't know what the issue is at Georgetown. I don't know why he's lost players. I don't know why McClung is transferring.

He actually had some odd quotes. This one in particular, he said it was a number of different events that made me feel I had no choice but to transfer from Georgetown. I really wanted to stay, but things throughout my career made me realize that I couldn't. Some odd comments on the way out. The point that I wanted to make is I don't know if Patrick Ewing is going to survive long. tournament at Georgetown or night or not. If I'm a Georgetown fan, which I'm not, I got to get somebody in there that can get me to the tournament and have me in a much better position because the program for all intents and purposes right now is dead. There is no life around Georgetown's

basketball program. None. With that said, and I mentioned it the first year, I, and when I watched Georgetown in the last couple of years under Patrick Ewing, from just a basketball standpoint. I can't tell you about his recruiting. I can't tell you about the relationships he has with players. And I can't tell you any of that. But I think Georgetown's played really hard and been well-coached every single time I've watched them. They've had some big wins, you know, here and there. So they've beaten some teams that you didn't think they could beat. They haven't been terrible, but it's not good enough. You know, I mean, there are schools out there. You know, just think of this most recent year. Dayton was on its way to being a one seed in the tournament. Dayton. Now, Dayton's got some basketball history, and people love that program in that part of the country, and they've been pretty decent over the last 10 years. You can tell me Georgetown can't be Dayton. You can tell me Georgetown. You're right. You're right. And I agree with you on Patrick, watching Georgetown play. I thought he had them.

playing very well at times and coat some terrific games. But I suspect that the same powers that be in the Georgetown Mafia that didn't have the patience for JT3 anymore are not going to have the patience or going to have even less patience with Ewing. I wouldn't be shocked if there's some kind of change. Well, the change, Tommy, if they're going to ever get out of this, situation is a whole new group of people. It's basically, I mean, as long as we've got the mafia theme going today,

I mean, we need, we need a new boss. There's got to be a new boss. It's got to be a new godfather. And I, and nobody loves coach more than I do. And you love them too. But it hasn't worked there for a long time now. You know, Georgetown just, when's the last time Georgetown went to the tournament? It's been several years, right?

JT3, it was like two years before he finished. I'm looking that up right now. Remember they lost to that Florida College. Florida Gulf Coast? Yeah, the Florida Gulf Coast for sure. Georgetown, the last time they were in the tournament was, oh, in 2015, that was, you know, so it's been five years since they've been in the tournament. And by the way, only once in the last seven years. And they didn't get upset in that particular tournament. They

lost to a pretty good Utah team in 2015. But yeah, they had the Florida Gulf Coast, you know, loss. They had the Ohio University loss. They lost to NC State when they were a higher-seated team in the second round. That's not nearly as bad. But I don't know enough. I don't. I don't, I don't have any information. I thought when I watched Georgetown the last couple of years, I thought, you know what? Because I didn't know what to expect, but I thought Patrick had a chance of getting it right, that his teams were well coached, but he's lost a lot of players, and maybe they're the right players that they're losing, you know? Maybe it's been good for them, but I can't imagine next year if they have another losing record and they don't go to the tournament.

How much longer can that last? I don't think it's going to last very long at all. Hey, I got a question for you. McClung wind up in Maryland? I don't think so, but I know that Maryland's on the list. I think Maryland, North Carolina, I've heard Tennessee. He's from down there, way down there in southwest Virginia, a real rural area in southwest Virginia.

And I think maybe some of this might have to do with him wanting to get closer to homes. the University of Tennessee would probably be closer, much closer to where he's from, I'm guessing, than College Park or even Chapel Hill. I don't know. Has there ever been a Maryland Georgetown or Georgetown to Maryland player? Yeah. Yes. Billy Bryant, who played at Carroll, great player, big-time lefty recruit, transferred to Georgetown. from Maryland. But that was back before Georgetown was great. You know what? I can't think of anything right off the top of my head. But I'm pretty sure it's happened a couple of times. Okay.

It would be my guess. But anyway, I wanted to throw that out there because McClung was really supposed to be a superstar. Didn't necessarily come anywhere near living up to it. He is going to pull his name out of the NBA draft pool because he wasn't going to get drafted. I mean, we see this every year. It's a good experience. But he wasn't going to be drafted in the top two rounds. But I don't know, the Georgetown basketball program, something to watch here in the next couple of years. You know, I think in their own league,

you know, schools like Butler and Xavier have had all of this success, you know, over the years. All the while, Georgetown's been floundering. I mean, you're going to tell me Georgetown can't be as good as Xavier or Butler? Come on. I know. Anyway. All right.

We're done. Sorry for getting started late to all of you, but you've got it now, back tomorrow. Thanks, Tommy. Okay, Buck.