The Kevin Sheehan Show - Curtis Samuel Limited Again!

Episode Date: August 1, 2022

Kevin today with Michael Phillips/Richmond Times-Dispatch on the Curtis Samuel injury news. Kevin also had Jimmy Patsos on the show to talk Bill Russell. Reaction to the Watson 6-game suspension as well.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Cheon Show. Here's Kevin. Two guests on the show today. Michael Phillips, our good friend from the Richmond Times Dispatch, will join us. Why?

There is news from Ashburn. Ron Rivera just finished up with the media following practice today. Curtis Samuel was held out of practice. And Ron had an update on Curtis Samuel. And the news isn't great. I'll get to that shortly, and then Michael Phillips will jump on with me to discuss it in more detail. Following Michael, Jimmy Patsos will be our guest. Jimmy grew up in Boston, grew up a Celtics fan.

We will talk about the passing of legend Bill Russell. When I heard that news about Russell yesterday, the first person I thought of was Coach Thompson. You know, having had the pleasure of being in the same building and in the same state, studio. You know, we did our show, Tommy and I did our show for seven and a half years right before Coach did his show with Doc and Al Koken and Doc and B. Mitch. And so we've told you about many of the conversations either in the bullpen or as they were walking into the studio and we were walking out that we got to have with Coach Thompson over the years. And his passion and his admiration for Bill Russell, I mean, we heard so many.

Russell stories over the years, and he had Russell on his show many times. And I called up JT3 or reached out to JT3, and he was on the radio show with me this morning, sharing some of those memories that he has from his father about Bill Russell playing with Russell up in Boston. And so JT3 was on the radio show with me this morning, and you can hear that at the Team 980.com or on the Odyssey app. He was on in our three of the show. also had Scott Turner on the show. I think it's the first time I've had Scott Turner on the podcast or on the radio show. He was great. 20 to 25 minutes with the offensive coordinator.

You can find that on the Team 980.com or the Odyssey app. That was in hour two. Anyway, before I get to the Curtis Samuel story from training camp today, Just want to remind everybody, if you don't mind, rate us and review us, especially on Apple and Spotify. Apple gives you a chance to rate the show up to five stars. That's great when you can do that and write a quick one to two sentence review. This review from BT-1102, love the show. As a fellow Bethesda native, I went to every game at RFK.

I enjoy Kevin's knowledge and take on all Redskins information. I live in South Carolina. hard to find any local insight better on the team. Go Barron's. That would be, I'm sure, a reference to the Bethesda Chevy Chase High School Barons. I did not go to BCC as a Bethesda native. I went to Walt Whitman High School in Bethesda. BCC was a rival of ours. Churchill was probably the biggest rival, but BCC was a big rival. But I had many friends that went to BCC.C. Great high school. legendary Montgomery County High School. Not Whitman, but a great high school nonetheless.

Thank you for the review BT-1102. Before I get to this Curtis Samuel thing, the other big piece of NFL news this morning is the six-game suspension of Deshawn Watson, a suspension handed down by the league's disciplinary officer, Sue Robinson. It's not like it used to be where Roger Goodell plays judge, jury, and executioner on all player suspensions. This is now, per the CBA, something that this independent disciplinary officer, Sue Robinson, investigates.

She hands down the suspension. Both sides, the NFLPA and the NFL do have the right to appeal. The NFLPA has already said, and it should have been to tell because they said it last night, that they're not going to, appeal the suspension. The NFL has three days to appeal the suspension. We'll see if they do. Look, netting it out, it seems light. It seems very light. I thought it would be at least eight games, maybe an entire season, but I thought at least eight games. Six games seems light. So I'm going to read to you from Jake Trotter's story on ESPN. Jake Trotter is the John Kime equivalent for the Cleveland Browns, and he wrote about Sue Robinson's suspension of Watson and her 15-page report and what it says

in the report. First of all, it's a six-game suspension without pay, but he's not going to be fined. He's getting suspended for violating the league's personal conduct policy following accusations, as we know, of sexual misconduct. and more associated with all of those massage therapy sessions, he says, in air quotes. But from Jake Trotter's story, he writes, Robinson's comprehensive 15-page conclusion stated, though Watson violated the personal conduct policy, there wasn't enough evidence to justify an indefinite suspension, meaning a much longer one.

In her report, Robinson wrote that, quote, The NFL carried its burden to prove by a preponderance of the evidence that Mr. Watson engaged in sexual assault, as defined by the NFL, against the four therapists identified in the report. Mr. Watson violated this policy in this regard, closed quote. Then in Trotter's story, he goes on to detail how she arrived at six games. And without reading through all of it, I'll net it out. She started using examples of cases since 2015 of players that had violated the personal conduct policy and were suspended. Darius Geis-Gyce Johnny Mansell for cases involving domestic violence got six games. Greg Hardy, four games.

The longest suspension for something involving sexual harassment, domestic violence, etc. Geron Jones got 10 games in 2021, but there was a criminal plea and multiple incidents of domestic violence. There were also multiple incidents of domestic violence with Kareem Hunt and Mark Walton, both of whom got eight game suspensions. There was more, though. Robinson also ruled that Watson has to limit his massage therapy to club-directed sessions and club-approved massage therapists for the rest of his career. And that's being mandated as a condition of his reinstatement. So no more Instagram massages, no more sketchy strip mall massages. It's going to have to be club-approved massage therapists.

Now, there was no mention in this story as to what the punishment would be. if, you know, he decides to go the Instagram route again. But they made it very clear. They know he's got a problem. They know that while he wasn't criminally charged or indicted, that this was a major problem. And I read this tweet just moments ago from Andrew Brandt, who's been on the show several times,

former team president of the Packers teaches at Villanova. Now he tweets about a lot of the business stuff and the legal stuff in the NFL. and he's read through this report as well. And he tweeted out, Watson, according to Judge Robinson, one, intended to cause contact with his penis. Two, did so for a sexual purpose. And three, knew such contact was unwanted. There was another tweet that Andrew Brandt put out that I wanted to read because it kind of hit home for me on another part of this story.

The tweet read, Watson used money from the Texans and Browns to settle lawsuits brought on by 24 and counting women. He sought out for massage, and he puts massage in quotes. And now he'll suffer only $350,000 in financial losses on a $230 million contract for his actions. Brant finishes the tweet by writing, There's something well icky about all of this. Yeah, I mean, the Texans paid him last year and he didn't play. Keep in mind, he couldn't play because of the investigation that was ongoing, but he didn't want to play before any of this was found out,

and he recouped every cent. Think about this. It actually, in many ways, worked out for him last year, not that any part of this story has worked out for him, I understand, but it certainly hasn't impacted him financially. He got every cent, even though he didn't want to play for the Texans and wanted to be traded. He got every cent of his money from Houston last year. And the Browns gave him a backloaded contract with a base salary of a million dollars this year

so that he would avoid losing a lot of money if he got suspended, if and when he got suspended. You know, it's like they just gave him every single financial thing that he desired out of this. All the while, you know, all of these women coming forward with legitimate complaints because he settled them civilly. He hasn't, you know, protested any of those civil lawsuits saying, I'm not giving you a dime because I'm totally innocent. And ultimately, like the Texans and Browns, by paying him every cent he was owed last year and by the Browns backloading the contract, they essentially helped him off. offset the cost of these lawsuits and, you know, by not having to pay out a major part of his salary

this year and by earning all of the money last year. Anyway, so the Curtis Samuel situation. Curtis Samuel was limited once again at training camp today. He was limited last week. Ron Rivera was asked about it and he talked about it today after the training camp practice this morning in Ashburn. He said two things, and they're lengthy. I will read them. The real good thing with it, more so than anything else, is this is all about the plan. We came out the first couple of days, got a chance to really look at him. I know he and Al, Bellamy's talking about the head trainer, talked a little bit, and there was some concern as far as just his overall football conditioning and shape. You can train all you want. You can condition all you want, but coming back and doing some of the

things that we wanted to do. We've got to be smart with it. Alan and his guys have a plan. So with Curtis, we're going to stick with the plan. Closed quote. Conditioning and shape? Here's the second part of it. I think more so than anything else, it was about seeing where he was when we got him back those first couple of days and just listening to him and all honesty, him talking about his hamstrings and lower back being sore and tight. One of the things that we wanted to do is we wanted to make sure that we brought him back the right way. So they've put a plan together. They've sat down. They went over it with Curtis yesterday and they're implementing it now. And what will happen is you'll see there will be ramp ups and then they'll slope back down.

Then there will be more ramp ups. There will be times when he's interacting, getting some of the 11 on 11 work and stuff like that. But it's all part of the plan. The ultimate goal is really the regular season more than it is anything else. This has nothing to do with last year's groin injury or anything like that. This is just about the plan for him specifically. Close quote. So hamstrings soar back. These are new. Football conditioning and shape. This is new. Curtis Samuel, missing practice, not new. Curtis Samuel being limited, not new. A concern over Curtis Samuel, Not new. For a year two, this is really troubling. Now, it could all get worked out here. And he said some good things about how he felt the other day. But they are, and I talked about this on the podcast over the weekend, they're being cautious.

And if they're being cautious, why are they being cautious? Well, he told you today. He told you that his overall football conditioning and shape was an issue. And he's got some hamstring and lower back issues now. Oh my God. This is heading towards being one of the worst free agent signings in franchise history, and there are a lot to choose from. I'm not panicking because I don't panic when it comes to this team anymore as a fan. I don't feel that emotion anymore. But this is clearly a concern.

You've got to wonder why in God's name Curtis Samuel is not healthy and ready to go for a second consecutive year. You know, you had the groin issue from last year. You know, he had surgery. He said he felt great. And, you know, that was months ago. And then the other day, he said he felt great. But clearly they are proceeding with caution,

and clearly there are compelling reasons for doing that. Yeah. Hopefully we see Curtis Samuel on the field by the opener. but like with Chase Young, I would not hold my breath. Michael Phillips was there today. He heard what Ron Rivera said. We'll find out the tone of what he said. More on this right after these words from a few of our sponsors.

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But use my promo code, Kevin D.C. at MyBooky.com or MyBooky.ag. Washington's still holding as a four-point favorite at My Bookie over Jacksonville in the opener. They are a two-point favorite over Detroit in Week 2. You can bet on that right now if you want at My Bookie. All right, joining us now from Training Camp, where they have just finished a training camp practice and Ron Rivera has just spoken is our friend Michael Phillips from the Richmond Times Dispatch. You can follow him on Twitter at Michael P.RT.D. Michael, we talked about the Curtis Samuel story and news in the opening segment.

I want you to describe to everybody what the difference is between Curtis Samuel missing time now and Ron Rivera's reaction to it from what the situation was a year ago. Well, you know, last year Ron really went to bat for Curtis Samuel. There was a lot of, you know, you remember, that was the angriest he got at a press. conference last year was Curtis Samuel surgery questions. It was guys, guys, guys, you know, don't, don't put that crap on the table. So Ron Rivera, and they haven't passed together. They played in Carolina, obviously.

But today we got a little different side. And Ron Rivera said that Curtis Samuel is on a plan because they had some concerns about his overall football conditioning after he did the first couple workouts. There was some hamstring and back tightness reported by Curtis Samuel. Certainly a little different perspective than we've got. that it has nothing to do with the groin injury, and that this is something that, you know, that they're going to keep an eye on the regular season,

work him towards them. So not a full throwing under the bus, Kevin, but certainly enough to raise some Curtis Samuel alarm bells for sure. So are you saying that it's not what it was last year, that seems clear, but that Ron Rivera is a little bit more frustrated this particular go-round because it may have to do with the, kind of shape that Curtis Samuel is in?

You know, I continue to think this is ultimately just going to be a Deshawn Jackson-style situation where, look, when he's out there, he's great. You cannot count on him to give you 17 games a year, and the best you can do is just manage it and get what you get on it. And, you know, maybe Ron's coming to peace with that now, too. But certainly an alarming phrase there, overall football conditioning. Yeah. When you hear football conditioning, you know, unless he's coming off a serious injury where, yeah, no, I mean, when he was limited last week, I thought, well, this is strange. Okay, why are they being so cautionary? And I think we found out today. I don't, I don't really get it. But, you know, we're headed towards if you're right, if it's, look, if he gives you, what Deshawn Jackson gave you in terms of, you know, some electrifying, you know, production at times,

but not always available. Right now, that would seem like something most people would take versus basically not getting anything from them. It would turn out to be one of the worst free agent signings in franchise history, if that's the case. And we've got a lot to choose from. Do we think the number is cursed? Because number 10 was previously warned by Paul Richardson, I might remind you, who was basically the exact same story. Yeah. Did Pryor wear it before that, or was it Jackson before that? Whoa.

Whoa, yeah. No, Prior War 11. Prior were, I think prior War 11, I think. And Jackson was 11 or 10. 10 in Philly 11 here, right? He always wore one in practices, too. So that always threw me. Like, he had a different number in practice than he did in the game.

You know, with Curtis Daniel, the bottom line is, you know, like, it's now a thing. It's a second year in a row, and it's an unrelated thing. It's becoming a thing, unfortunately. Yeah, by the way, you wrote about another number 10 in your story from over the weekend, which we'll get to because it's been 10 years since Number 10's first training camp and his first season, and maybe the last season in which there was truly a ton of passion for this team. We're talking to Michael Phillips.

So, all right, the headline is Curtis Samuel and the concern over him and we're back to where we were last year with one exception, and that is the coach seems legitimately concerned and bothered by it. Let's move to Chase Young because to me, out of the first couple of days of camp, that was your big story. You know, that the 2020 rookie of the year who tours ACL in early November last year, you know, it was, you know, we all had a sense that there was a chance he could miss some time. But Ron Rivera, in that back and forth with you and with John Kime on Friday.

You had said the other day that Chase was going to be out a little while. Yep. And it's, I think most of us said probably into the season for a little while. Is that more what you're expecting? And what is the, what do you think the time table with him as far as the season goes? Well, I don't think there's a fair timetable, you know, other than he'll probably, be started off on pup into the regular season active pup. It's unfortunate, but it was a serious injury, obviously, with surgery. And he's doing everything he's supposed to. He's on time as far as

where the doctors think he should be. And, you know, as he gets better and better, we can update you. But right now, he's right where he needs to be. And I know they changed the rules. So he starts the season on pup. Is that four games now? Is that correct? No, I think it's a few more. I believe is six. But we'll see how it all goes. It was very interesting because you knew, it sounded to me like you knew what the Pup rule was for the regular season four games. And he didn't necessarily. And he said six and yeah, probably. And then backtracked and said, no, only one game. I want what your reaction was to, you know, Ron Rivera and you and Kime on Friday. And your guest,

as to how many games Chase Young misses in the regular season? Yeah, I tend to think the first answer is often, you know, the more correct answer in those sorts of scenarios. You know, and for Ron to say right now, there's no chase in week one, means it's not close at all. And so for him to say Pup, let's. So, yes, Pupless rule is for Ron said six at the podium. That makes it more concerning to me if Ron was saying Pup,

and the number is six instead of four. you know, to potentially boot him for six games out of the gate. But, you know, you've got other ways you can do it. You can put him on the 53 and take him to IR. You can keep him inactive, which you can start the season. But I read that as a lack of optimism. And I do think the thing we need to point out is it was not a run of the LACL. It was a more severe injury with a more severe surgery.

I don't think there's any sort of indications that there's any, oh, he's been lax in his recovery, hasn't been working at or anything like that. I think this is just a complex injury that he's coming back from, but certainly six is the number in my mind right now coming out of that exchange. Yeah, and I think what it does, and I want your thoughts on this, I think it completely, look, we've got time and things can change between now and September 11th. But if you're right, and that first answer is somewhat reflective of what they're really thinking, and it turns out that he misses a significant part of the early portion of the schedule.

You know, call it multiple games, three, four, five, whatever it is, games. I think we have to change our expectations on the kind of season that Chase Young, you know, can have. And our reaction to it, what do you think? I think his first dominant season now would be 23 coming back, certainly coming off of this. you look at the contract situation, they'll pick up the 50 years this off season, you would think that there wouldn't be any kind of real extension talks coming off of a regular, you know, a regular season where he plays a few weeks is good but not dominant, whatever. To me, the key benchmark, and I say that in all sincerity after what happened last year,

if this team gets rolling early, if this team is four and two, and he comes back in week seven, they have to not be worse with him than they were without him. that is the standard for Chase Young in coming back, and that's got nothing to do with his ability to dominate or get 20 sacks, and that's got everything to do with what happened last year where this was a more cohesive team and unit and had better chemistry and seemed to be plung better once he left than when he was there. And, you know, Ron hinted at that,

was the Mike Silver interview with the bi-week, kind of hinting at that. Ron talked to me at the Super Bowl. We put those quotes out there. He said he felt like Chase was trying to be, somebody he wasn't last year. So to me, that's the new Chase Young bar. When he comes back, does he make the defense better or at least not worse?

And I think you say, that's your building block, and then you go into 20, 23 off of that. That's my new recalibals. Wow. I mean, of course that's because, look, last year, you know, your quotes that you got from him at the Super Bowl, what they implied, you know, during the early portion of the season, adhering to the, you know, the scheme, you know, playing with. in the scheme, being disciplined, being mature.

We all found out, I mean, I think some of us, you know, had a hunch as to what he was referring to when it was going on, but we all know that, you know, Chase Young was a part of that, you know, discussion. And what's interesting, and I was talking to Ben about it this morning on the radio show, and that is, if he were coming back, fully healthy, you know, recovered from the injury, well, you know, in time, had a full camp or mostly, most of the camp, played in prece, season games, was ready to go for the regular season opener, there would be a lot of pressure on him to be a lot different than he was in those first eight games last year.

And now I don't think that the pressure can be on him because of what we've been discussing. And because of it, if you just take it out a step or two further, not that, you know, it's maybe appropriate to do it on August 1st. But if there was ever a chance that there would have been a debate over a fifth year option, I'm not suggesting that there would have been. But if there was any chance that that debate could have happened, it would have been him playing an entire season after at least some of an offseason and playing the way he did in the first state games last year.

Now that's not in play. So this year, like you said, the next time we see Chase Young potential, as the Chase Young of 2020, as the Chase Young we thought we were getting with the number two overall pick might be 2023. Yeah, and there is no debate on the fifth year option. I don't think anymore, obviously, that'll happen now. But it does in a way complicate your Montez's sweat situation, too. If he comes out there and dominates this year, you know, do you have room for Allen,

you know, you've already got the big Allen contract? You're presuming you need to at least save for the Chase contract. that, you know, if Montez-Swit comes out there and has a great year, which he's capable of, it certainly makes a very interesting off-season. All right. Give me one or two other Michael Phillips' observations so far through the four days of training camp. Yeah, I'm impressed with the secondary. I really am.

I think they're a much better spot than they were last year. They seem to be communicating well. They seem to be in the correct spot more often than not. There haven't been a lot of plays where they're telling each other trying to figure out where to get to. I wish they would finish a couple more of these interceptions. That's all right. We can't be greedy. They have been in the right spot more often than not.

And I've been very pleased with their work. I would say flip side of that coin, Carson Wentz, we thought he was in terms of overthrowing receivers. He has been overthrowing guys pretty regularly since he got out here. I don't know when we smashed the panic button on that. I feel like it's not yet. because there's still a lot of raw talent there. He's still an upgrade over last year's guy, but it's something we're all noticing,

certainly more and more as each day goes on. And then the thing we'll watch for, you know, Tuesdays when the pads come on, I think we're all waiting for a verdict on the linebackers. They've been running with two linebackers most of the time. I think we see that's what they're going to do this season. But when the pads come on, Ron alluded to it today, it's time to see, can we count on Jamie Davis?

Can we count on, you know, fill you know these guys right here or is it time to go trade or sign or do what you need to do to bring in somebody else so that that'll probably be on my radar tomorrow and into the rest of the week I can't imagine that they will push any panic button on Carson Wentz until we see you know many games plural in the regular season yeah yeah and you know this is going to be part of the strategy to win games is let me give you a hypothetical I think they need to go

deep. Like go long, six or seven times a game. Easy. Go long. Maybe Terry catches. Maybe John catches it. Maybe you get a pass interference. Maybe it gets intercepted. But if you can have, you know, if you go long seven times, Kevin, sign me up for three touchdowns, two interceptions, two incompletious. Or, you know, three past interference or touchdowns, two and a like, I think you're just going to have to take a ratio like that in order to run the kind of offense you want to run around here and be successful. You know, the key to that will be obviously being balanced, running the football, and by the way,

the offensive line, which has been, you know, a reshuffled deck every day coming together and having time to be cohesive when the regular season starts. So I did want to ask you about your column about RG3 10 years ago. First of all, the 10-year anniversary made you think about it, I am sure. but let's go back 10 years to the trade and then the drafting of and then as they were getting ready for their first training camp and the excitement around it. Give me some of your memories of that first camp with Griffin. Man, you know, there was just so much. I'll even go back to the trade night.

I mean, people were jazzed on the night of the trade when that trade got done. people were ready for this, excited for this, and that, you know, you had a coach and Mike Shanahan who had just been waiting for his guy, and then you got this kid coming in who was, you know, so much hype through the process. And, you know, he was leaning into it, socks and the press conferences. And then to do what he did against the Saints, like, you know, this thing hit a fever pitch pretty quickly. It didn't slow down from there all the way into, you remember that next year's

training camp down in Richmond, where it was. I mean, there were just people on top of people on top of people. I mean, just people bought in all the way on this kid and what he was. I'll never forget Richmond more than anything else because it was, you know, it was set up for those kinds of crowds. I mean, and those were the biggest crowds we ever saw in Richmond by far. And people were insanely excited. But that first camp, 2012, I remember going to the first few days of that camp.

I think we did our show. Tommy and I did our show from out there. And I'll never forget watching some of the practice and seeing him lined up in the pistol. And I said to somebody, I can't remember who it was, that's the pistol formation. That's what Kaepernick ran at Utah State. What are they doing? But it never occurred to me. that we were going to see this, you know, totally new way of playing offense in the NFL that they would debut against New Orleans.

But, yeah, it was crazy. And, you know, you alluded to something in your column, and I think you're spot on. I think that we now are 10 years since, and really 2013 and the buildup for 2013, so that would be nine years technically. but those two years were maybe the last. I mean, you know, who knows what will happen in the future. But it's been really a steady and a pretty quick erosion of interest since then. You actually made the statement, and I kind of agree with you, other than the Gibbs return.

This was one of the highest points during the Snyder era in terms of excitement. And, you know, like, so as we assemble this, what, the 90 greatest list here and then build on the 80 greatest list, like, I totally get the people who are like, we need to put on more Joe Gibbs assistants, more guys from the 70s, whatever. Like, it's been a bad decade. I get that. But you got fans, and I'm 37 years old, Kevin. So I was six in 1991. You know, and I can grow up out here. But for the fans out here who did grow up with it, I mean, we're hitting on now a generation of people, people who have kids, who really have no tangible memories of anything resembling what are described as the glory year.

And when you write the franchise history, you don't just exclude a 20-year chunk. I mean, he is core to that story. He is the reason that people dipped into it for a little while and people got on board and people. and people gave it that chance, and ultimately the reason why, you know, it's so depressing right now, you know, 10 years removed from a high point that people will rightfully point out was not much of a high point and did not last for very long. So you think Griffin should and will be voted in the next 10 on the, you know, creating the 90 greatest in franchise history, don't you? Yeah. So I think there's six locks.

I'll try to them off the top of my head here. Carrigan, London Fletcher, Trent Williams, Santana Moss, Cooley, Cooney. Cooley. Cooley. I think those guys are, they were greater for longer than Griffin was. And, you know, have been their spot there. But I think after that, like, if you're telling the 90-year story,

of this franchise, he gets a chapter. And what he did, I mean, that game, that went against the Cowboys, that late interception, the hailed of the Redskins, I mean, I got goosebumps being there in that building. Like, that was a moment. And we just had so few of those. It's certainly relative to other places and what they get. Yeah, it's hard for me, given that it's just one year. but you're right.

I mean, it is one of the most memorable years, certainly of the last 30 in franchise history. You might say it was the most memorable year, start to finish. And yeah, you know, I'm going to drop a nugget here, and maybe you know this already, but a lot of the former players were among those that voted for this next 10 list of the players that fans would select from.

Trent Williams was supposed to be on that list. They pulled them off. They put him back on. Griffin was not. So Griffin was not from former players. And those that voted on those that would be available to be voted on for the next 10 was not one of those that made the cut. But they added him in with Trent after the fact. Because I think some fans and some younger fans said, you know, what about our

G3. The Trent thing, we've been through that. We've covered that ground. But yeah, what a year, 10 years, man. I get it, too. So obviously the column is very polarizing and knew it would be. If you, especially if you're a former player, you know, some of these guys who walk around who wear Super Bowl rings, if they want to get on their platform and their radio show or whatever and say, you know, this doesn't fit the criteria. This isn't it. I'll nod. Like, I get it. Like, you saw some serious highs.

Like, that wasn't what, like, that wasn't it. I just, you know, a full generation of people now, though, that's the highest high they knew. And to them, that's the high point of the Washington Redskins because they weren't alive for the Super Bowl. That's part of this franchise's story now. It is this last 20, 25 years. And obviously with Gibbs had that lasted longer. that would have been a higher high. It was certainly lots of enthusiasm there.

But in terms of a one year, just this whole town pulling for it all at once, that's it. You just gave me an idea, by the way, for the perfect radio call-in segment for a slow day in August. And that is on this next 10 list. If you can only choose one, is it RG3's one year or Kirk's six franchise passing records that he owns?

You know, because Kirk obviously has been a much better NFL quarterback in both play. And everywhere he's gone than RG3 was. But the thing that's sickening every time we have this conversation, whether it's the two of us or people that you talk to or people that I talk to, is that this was really in so many ways almost a last chance for Snyder to get it right. like he hired the right guy in Mike Shanahan. They had an incredible staff.

They had a young quarterback that, you know, I think in hindsight, even, I don't know if Robert would ever, you know, acknowledge us that his best move would have been to say, no, Dan, I'm okay with Mike and Kyle and Matt LaFleur and, you know, and Sean McVeigh and everybody that's here. I'll take my chances with them rather than whatever new group you bring in. it sucks because whether it was going to be Griffin at the helm or eventually cousins at the helm, it would have been so much better had the owner not, you know, given a 23-year-old self, you know, absorbed quarterback, you know, all of that preferential treatment and power. It just, it's an outrage when you think about it, not that we haven't done it before, but you bringing up 10 years ago makes me think about it. that was the chance for him to say, no, I'm not going to get in the middle of a player-coach relationship.

I've got to trust in, you know, a potential Hall of Fame coach to make the right calls here. You know, it colors the way the franchise has been seen ever since. They were. They were firmly on the national radar last year. And you go back to the argument, like, I'm not coming at you with any staff here. This is purely a head versus hard argument. I'm going hard with Robert here putting them on the list. I'm aware the head is telling me that's a stupid thing to do.

But yeah, just everything lined up, and then it all collapsed just as quickly. And you had, I mean, the dancing color so much, although I mean, from the Zorn hiring to the Robert thing to, you know, Dwayne, it shows up every now and then. and sets this team back at the most of an opportune time. Yeah, it's, you know, even if you are a believer that, you know, well, I mean, he's not involved in the day to day, which we were, you know, told to believe for the last 10 years when Bruce was here, he got involved enough and continues to do it enough to really mess things up. And that's happened for on and off for 23 years.

And that's why they are where they are. outrageous that Jacoby, by the way, was not included on that Hall of Fame senior list. That, to me, is absurd. I don't know what the Hall voters have against Jake, but my God, I thought he would definitely make the next, you know, the finalist list at least on this senior committee thing. Well, that he's not a finalist. It's absurd, of course. Is there any Dan factor of play there?

I mean, is that, like, if they're still the Red Seas and they have a competent owner, like, is that a different story? I don't, it's unfair to him, obviously, but like, when something that ridiculous happens, we're like, hey, look, when we get to the finalist list, you know, we're going to be made between really good players, but to not be the finalist list was a glaring omission at the least. Yeah, that's interesting. I haven't thought of it that way. I mean, you know, Shanahan made the next cut on the, on the coaches' contributors list, which I think he deserves. I think Marty should have been made it to that stretch, that spot as well. But I don't know. I think people understand that Jacoby never played for any of the Snyder-owned teams.

I just don't get it. I don't get it on him at all. It's a major disconnect for me as to why he wasn't in the normal route and why on this particular, you know, discussion, he didn't make it easily to the finalist list? It's a long gap now. We wait for Brian Mitchell's turn with the senior committee, and, you know, obviously with Devin Hester getting in, maybe that's a little bit of a different discussion now. But it's going to be a long wait from here.

Like, you know, we did this song and dance for Kerrigan, who was unquestionably, you know, one of the big faces around here. but, you know, then you look at it from a national scale, like, did Ryan Carrigan retiring make any sort of national ripples? You know, and he's obviously not going to Canton, you know, just shows you like it's going to be a few minutes. Yeah, I think the Carrigan-Jacobie conversation is apples and oranges a little bit, not just because Jake won so much and Ryan didn't. But Jake was considered one of the best two or three players at his position for a decade. Carragans never been considered that. No, I'm just saying even the best we've got to offer around here isn't enough to move the needle.

Oh, right, right. Got it. Got it. Yeah, I'm just saying we're about to go through a real sell not watching that ceremony every year seeing any burgundy your goal. Exactly. Thank you for doing this as always. Hope you're well. Absolutely.

Yeah. Michael Phillips, everybody. Up next, Jimmy Patsos will be our guest. We'll talk Bill Russell with Jimmy P. Right after these words from a few of our sponsors. Bill Russell played 21 winner-take-all games in his career. That includes the NBA, the NCAA tournament, the Olympics. His teams went 21 and 0. 10 of those were NBA game sevens. And in those games, he averaged. 29.3 rebounds per game and only missed seven out of 495 total minutes. Joining us to talk about that. And I'm sure a lot more than that is my friend Jimmy Patsos.

You can, of course, follow Jimmy on Twitter at Coach Patsos, doing a lot of work for Under Armour, NBC Sports Washington, and lots of other things. I thought of you among several people. The first thought I had of was of Coach Thompson and having worked with him at the station for so many years and hearing him talk about Russell and our bullpen all the time and debate on the greatest centers and for him it wasn't a debate and to have him on the show.

And you were somebody else I thought about. I thought your perspective on Russell would be a good one as well. So tell me what you think of Bill Russell in his passing yesterday. and your thoughts of his career and legacy? Well, clearly a very sad day for basketball, just because he had the most rings of the player 11, which will probably never be,

no one will catch him on that. But what a great human being. What a great example he led to so many. But you know what's really interesting, Kevin, is I do read Auroback, and I kind of chuckled. Very, very sad day. But the first thing I said was Sam Jones and Casey Jones were going for a loose ball.

And Sam Jones got pushed into Bill Russell on the sideline. And Bill Russell had his glasses on reading the Wall Street Journal. And the first thing that Red Albeck said was, what are you two doing messing with Bill? And they got up and said, hey, man, we're practicing today. He said, just you two Jones boys remember this. Remember they were not related, but he called them, that was kind of their name up there.

Yeah. He said, you two Jones is remember this. I don't need either one of you, but I need him. And he said, Bill, we're sorry we disturbed you because he's like the Wall Street Journal was crumpled and all that kind of stuff. What struck me is A, he was so smart, but B, who was reading the Wall Street Journal in the 60s, right?

What NBA players were reading the Wall Street Journal? I don't know. Bill Russell was, okay? And Bill Russell was the first great player ever in my life in Boston. That was a superstar. black guy in Boston basketball player super intellectual

my mother and father was talking about how he went to San Francisco was a Jesuit like it was just that was the first guy in my life

growing up in Boston that was just an unbelievable role model as my parents grew up in Boston my father's Greek my mother's Irish you know we're not

we're not black we're living in a pretty white town and they're like Bill Russell San Francisco Casey Jones play with him there's Sam Jones

I just named three African-Americans that I was supposed to look up to in Boston. That's very rare, okay? I was born in 66. So you go down that path, and Bill Russell was the king of this because of his statesly, worldly, doing things of Muhammad Ali, winning all the time, then becoming the first blackhead coat. But this was a whole thing that I didn't realize was a total amygmint the rest of the world, Kevin. You know, I'm 5, 6, 7, 8, 9. I got to meet Jojo White, who also played in Kansas. Now, Dave Collins was on that team.

Of course, Tommy Hineson and Bobby Coosie, one of those teams. So it was a mix. But this was Bill Russell's team. It was Bill Russell and Red Arborback. You got an African-American guy from the West Coast, and you got a Jewish GM. And it was talked about in my family, and that was a good thing. It was talked about as these are your role models.

This is how hard they work. That's why they won. Now, we were probably a rarity. everybody was a hockey Bruins guy. We were basketball. The Red Sox weren't any good. Collier-Strumski was coming, the Patriots were unheard of.

There's no Tom Brady at this time. My parents and my family, we idolized the Celtics. And that meant idolized Bill Russell. And then he was friends with Sat Sanders, and Sat Sanders. He came to coach at Harvard.

You can ask Mike Tubbs. But this is what we grew up with. And not everybody grew up with a guy like Bill Russell, who was supposed to be a gentleman off the court, a winner on the court. As you said, 21 game sevens.

We all talked about 55 rebounds you got in the game, but 21 and 0 in game seven and two national titles at San Fran. Like that was talked about because of the Irish Catholic of my mother, you know, San Francisco's a Jesuit school. So think about all the crazy things I've just brought up in my first five minutes

about Bill Russell, and it wasn't that he had 11 rings. And it was all this other stuff combined, and it was very interesting to grow up around it. It was a pleasure, meeting him. I got to talk to Red Alaback. But you didn't realize that he's the one, and you know me. I do a lot of different stuff besides basketball when I was coaching.

That's the thing. There's more of this than sports. This is a journey, but you also have to win. Let's not get it screwed up now. This guy wanted to win. I think he was competitive to the end. I think we saw the clips of him and Jack and Michael and all those guys when he sat on stage how to kick your ass. Like, this is a guy that was competitive and wanted to win. He wanted to make one dollar more than Will Chamberlain.

Like all those things, but social justice, having the wherewithal to talk about racism while he had it. He didn't leave Boston. He tried to make Boston a better place, which is probably an uphill battle at the time, that's for sure. But yet coached. And then went back in Staten, Houston, then he went to Seattle and coached in. But he was around the game a lot. And I know a lot of people that know him really well that said he was true blue and his ideology to help players become better people and while they were blessed they have to give back but there are changes

that need to be made and this guy you're talking about way back in the 60s and 70s I can't imagine how tough it was that's my thoughts on Bill Russell you know you um you grew up in a city which has had the reputation and you just described it as you know being there for him as a black man and a basketball ball player, no matter how great, no matter how much he won for the Celtics, you know, it was an uphill battle. You came from a very tolerant and open-minded family, and yet you probably grew up around a lot of families that weren't. You know, we've read about the experiences that black athletes have had, you know, playing in Boston, and yet you mentioned Russell stayed there. He tried to make it work. How tough? Can you describe it?

having, you know, grown up really as a child of the 70s like I am, you know, and by the way, you left Hondo off the 70s team. Oh, yeah, right, John. Yeah, but what was that, what was that uphill battle like? I mean, you probably have some thoughts and experience some of that. We remember busing. That was 8 and 9. That's what busing was going on.

You remember that. you talked about, but you just, you went to the games, and when you were Celtics fan, you went. By the way, it was about half full. Like, we were young kids, you could just walk up and get tickets. It wasn't until Larry Bird, Dennis Johnson, and by the way, the guy doesn't get a credit

for Turner Self-Crum. Tiny Archibald came. Tiny Archibald was probably the most important player in the team. Then Bird, then of course, that Maxwell was good, and they had some other guys. But the black players that I knew in basketball, they didn't mind playing there because they

want and be the fans were really supportive. Jason Tatum, Al Horford's gone back there. Ray Allen leaves his kids there. Marcus Smart seems to be happy playing there. There's clearly something that draws guys to play in Boston when it's the fan base. They have tremendous schools. There's a

huge African-American intellectual property that's going on. Cornett. You know, my boy Cornel West, he's a professor at Harvard. You have Harvard. You have MIT. You have B.U. B.C. You have all these great schools. And the schools, the academia, that's why I said, Satx Sanders and the guys at Harvard, the jazz clubs,

and Mike Jarvis would give you a lot of this. There's a whole intellectual black community in Boston, and it's a very liberal place. I didn't say tolerant. Right. Because Salty and Charlestown and all that, the other time I was the school over there, PCI, it was like the great divide.

So it's a really interesting place, and I think that's how guys like him got that to it. Like, I would ever speak to those guys and know them like that, and Joe White was in awe of Jojo White, you know, because he was such a big guard, and was my favorite player. that kind of player when I was like a younger when you could really understand the game.

They just, that's where they chose to play. They won there. The sand base was good, but there was a lot of people to have, look, there's a whole other side to Boston. And I think Bill Russell embraced, if you read the Coozy book and you read about Bill Russell, he embraced the intellectual property that was happening in Boston. He embraced that there was a lot of really growth

and forward thinkers on, you know, whether it's crossed the river in Cambridge. Well, at the same time, busing's going, on and clearly there's a race problem and Southie in Charlestown and a few other towns over there that weren't so hot to be and I would say if you're an African-American or Latin or Jewish

by the way. I don't the easiest thing to this is a very Irish Catholic in a tough little town. This is where Whitey Bulger came from. But the Celtics brought everyone together. All I know is this is Bill Russell was able to bring that city together. Brett Outlawback talked about it. Now they didn't come until

the playoffs. They're winning all those champions. All those championships are being won. But then he becomes the coach, and then he sets the stage up, and then here comes, you know, Charlie Scott, that next week, that 74 and 76 they won, then in the Byrd Dynasty years with Dennis Johnson and those guys. But this is set up by Bill Russell's ability to win games. I mean, they just won. Like in other words, the social justice stuff is so important, him being an intellect,

him making sure to talk to the other NBA players about their responsibility off the court to make changes in the world. But he was a winner. Like he was still a baller and he was a competitive guy and he wasn't the nicest guy in the court. You don't win. You don't go 21 and 0 in those games just because you know how to block shots

and not knock him out of bound because you're an unbelievable defensive rebound. I mean, your whole teams to one shot. He was a tremendous passer. Red Alback. Correct. Passer. He's the Princeton offensive today

with the big man at the high post. He tried to tell me that Red Outback sat me down in Loyola. He said, they got a couple plays for you. I said, there's only one problem. I don't have Bill Russell. You know, like, like you, and he talked about him at the high post. He was the point center.

But to be managing all that stuff and then still winning it in a place where there's as high racial tensions that can be in the country in the north. I don't know anything about the South, but in the Northeast, that was, you know, really serious stuff. Yet he brought the fans together. Yet the fans to this day still go to the Celtics game in droves. They pack them. They really pack them in there. An interesting fan base, I think it goes back to not just the winning ways,

the way they played. But the Red Alback, I think the Red Alback Bill Russell relationship needs to really be examined one day, whether it's a movie or in deeper book.

Because I think they both felt this isn't the easiest place, but it's what we got. They come here and they watch us play and they want to help us win and we got it going here and we'll figure away. Because remember,

wife and child, children, two daughters lived in Washington. I know. A thousand different time. He had to work a lot. Travel, but I also think that might have been

because they had a strong Jewish support. community. So once again, I'm at Reds funeral and there's David Stern next to me and Stover and Tatum and all these guys. Well, Russell and all those guys are there in one corner. And you're looking at like, this is the world we now think of as normal. It was not normal. It was anything but normal. But somehow they still managed to win. And I also would like to go look, take a deeper look at Bill Russell's wins in San Francisco. To win back-to-back titles in the NCAA is still like one of the rare feet, you know, Duke did it once, but other than UCLA's run and Florida did it, you know, with Billy's out of

and a know-in-noe and those guys. But this guy did it. And he did it, by the way, at San Francisco, a very small little school. So, like, that has to be examined of, like, his impact on winning and figuring out how to win and then figuring out how to also be a good person off the court to make monumental stride. But let's not forget what a great player he was, Kevin, like a really, really great player.

Yeah, let's talk about that because you're a basketball historian. I would describe you among many things as a basketball historian. And there is no doubt he's the greatest team sport winner of all time. That's actually not even up for debate. You know, nobody's close to his, you know, 11 titles in Boston. I mean, Jordan had six, not 11. He's the greatest winner, team sport winner of all time. Where does he rank on the all-time greatest center list?

I'm putting him as one. Now, he would probably be a power forward today, but he was, let me think he wasn't 6-7. He was a real 6-10. And as you know, he can play 6-10. You know, you can play center at 6-10 in today's game. Draymond Green does the 6-8.

Where's he really land? I put him as number one because I think he would have figured it out. Now, could he guard Shaq? I don't know. This guy guarded Will Chief. He guarded Will. I met. I met Will once.

I've never seen a guy like that. I mean, he's seven foot one in a tree trunk of a body and great shape and moved well. This is what he was playing volleyball on the beach in L.A. of all time when I met him. Like, he got it to Wilk, who was quick, fast, and big. And they were pretty dirty back in the day that. But I think he could have held his own against. Like I said, Shaq's the only one to me that that's just a, and that's why I think the Lakers won so many titles.

It wasn't just Kobe. Shaq was just unbelievably smart and could move. But he was huge. You know, nobody could match his physicality. But other than that, I think he could have... I mean, I got him on the starting five. I talked to my young, not 55, I'm out on the circuit.

We have these meetings. It's hard to compare generations, but I put the 60s and 70s as one, 80s and 90s as the other, then the 2000s as the modern era. He's definitely the best player ever in the 60s and 70s. He clearly could have played against Kareem and them

in the 80s and the 90s and all that stuff. Now, Limbier might have tried to bite him or something, but Bill a bit of back. But the 2000s with the way they run and the way they shoot the ball, that's the only one I'm not sure you could put him in that category because the game was still different. But I don't know, Rudy O'Bair changes the game.

He's just not a good passer. He can still block shots. Like, there's ways to do it. And I think he would have figured it out. But I have him as first team all NBA or ever just because of the 11 rings. You want to put him on the second team because of, you know, hey, people want to put him in the second team. I'll take that team. I'll take Magic at the point and him at the center on the second best team in the history of LA.

The all NBA team, I'll take those two and see who wins because you just had a great stat, 21 and 0 in game seven. Well, 21 and 0 in one and duns, including in college Olympics, 10 and 0 in all time game sevens where he averaged 29.3 rebounds. So I, you know, Tommy and I on this podcast get into these arguments all the time. I mean, a few weeks ago, he tried to put John Havlachack in the top 15 of all time. And I said, well, to do that, you're going to have to take some people out. And we went down the list. And eventually he had, he had Hondo just, you know, at 20 or a little bit outside of it. And I said, that's more appropriate.

But, you know, I watched so much Russell late yesterday afternoon last night. You know, like you, you were at the same age, basically. And I didn't see Russell play. I remember him side by side with Brent Musburger on CBS's, you know, call of NBA basketball. But what was striking to me is how athletic he was. And we always have these conversations about, you know, evolution, training, diet, everything. You know, LeBron 6. Jordan was 6 and 195, 200. LeBron 69 and 260.

I always say Carl Malone is the one guy from the 80s that you can. could basically place in 2022 and he wouldn't look out of place because he was 6-9 and 260, you know, at that point. But my God, I mean, he was a long jump guy. He was a high jump guy. He had long arms. He had great feel, great hands. He could run.

There are so many plays that I was watching last night where he blocks the shot. And Red Arbach used to say at, you know, St. John's a metropolitan basketball camp every summer, Morgan and Joe's camp every summer when he would come to speak when I was a kid. Bill Russell didn't just block the shot. He wanted to maintain possession after he blocked the shot. That was always a big hourback thing about Russell, and I'm sure you heard it a lot too. And then he would lead the fast break and make the pass. Like I think I, maybe I just never invested the kind of time I did last night into watching

Russell. but I think you could place him. Maybe you're right. Maybe he's more of a Duncan and as much as he's like a power forward as much as he's a center. But my God, the high IQ and the hands and the feel and the athleticism, unbelievable. And it seems to me, after watching it, he could, he's one of those few that might translate. You could bump up 40 years and he wouldn't look out of place.

You know, well, the athleticism part you're right in. By the way, also that he could run and he could like out and run the fast break. I do like your calm alone thing because once again, see, calm along could shoot. He could face you up and shoot jumping. I don't know if Russell could do that.

Duncan really couldn't do it, but it doesn't matter. I don't know Duncan gets enough credit, by the way. But you have five titles. Duncan has five titles. Yep. You know, I mean, I think you want everyone with him. I'm not sure if they won one without him. I don't think so.

So you have If you can pass And block shots and do all those things You just change the game so much That's one of the reasons I really like Jet Holgram Because he's a shot blocker And he can run and do all that other stuff

Shooting threes That's a difference maker of the game today Russell wasn't going to shoot three Duncan wasn't going to shoot threes But you're right, Carl Malone could People think of Larry Bird playing some white guy Larry Bird was 6-9 because shoot from 40 feet Of course he could play today

Yeah Of course he can play today because now he can't, God, you can't pack and deep, and you can't clutch and grab like they used to, you know, Michael Cooper was all over, Mark McQuired, you know, Mark McCorn. How would Russell have handled the defenses of those clutch and grab years in the 90s would have been interesting to me? Like I said, he's pretty dirty. You know, they had to change the rules because of the Pistons. God love him. And Jordan adapted because of them, you know, Jordan swears he got better because of the Pistons.

It doesn't mean he likes them. But it seems to me that, hey, he's. beat Cherry West, he beat Chamberlain, he beat all these guys. It would have been nice if he could have went against Jabbar, because, you know, at the time, Lou El Sender was turning into Kareem Abduh, Jabar in Milwaukee. It would have been interesting to see him go against him. But after that, there's no dominant center again for a long time.

So I have him second team all NBA. That means he's in the top 10. That's five to ten, Russell. Just because of the speed and difference of the game, if he's the biggest winner ever, of course, he changed the game the most. He put the game on the map. The Celtics and them were good for. it. And I just think he could play today. He just might not play center. He might be a specialized

form. But his winning percentage, and as you said, he was 6-10 and athletic. He was much more athletic than I really understood in terms of his ability to run the court, too. I mean, and you said it. They ran a lot of that high post with him at the high post, a lot of the cutting off of the high post. What a passer. Like, there are highlights where he looks a little bit like Walton as a passer. Yeah, who is considered the greatest past, big man passer ever, until he got hurt. That's David Halberstam, for those you listening,

read great for the game. That's about the 78 season when they're about to go 55 and 10. Repeat, he's heard. Well, when you have a big man that can do all that stuff, like Lou El Sender, like Bill Walden, there are guys that can dominate from the post. Tim Duncan is the modern one. Well, I'm going to give you, he might be a lot like Tim Duncan.

And Duncan got his five titles. Okay, let's make no mistake. This is no fluke because Chinoble is pretty good and Tony Parker's pretty good. And David Robinson was at the end. Let's get serious. That was Tim Duncan's win. Those were four of those five were basically his wins.

And if he did it, and this modern era, then why couldn't Bill Russell do it? I think I'm really glad you brought the Duncan thing. I think he could have been a lot like him. By the way, you know who benefited from the Walton injury as he was trying to repeat in 78, right? the bullets. They won the title.

The bullets, right? They win the title in 78, then Seattle in 79, beat the passes. But they played back to back, right? They played back to back. Seattle, though, you know, in 78, like Washington, you know, Washington beat Philly in the Eastern Conference Finals, and Seattle beat Portland in the Eastern Conference Final. In some round in the postseason,

with Walton being hurt, and then Washington played Seattle back-to-back years. Yes. By the way, in the conversation of the centers, like I understand that to me, and it makes sense, that whether it's Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, you know, Russell, you know, Russell, Kareem, whatever order you want to put him in, I think most people agree they're the three best. You mentioned Shaq. I've always had Elijah Wan ranked ahead of Shaq. I think Elijah Juan consistently in this conversation of the greatest centers of all time gets underrated.

I'm not saying, you know, outrageously underrated because he's, you know, he's in a lot of top five lists of greatest centers. He's in a lot of top 10 to top 15 all time players. But I, Elijah one was uncheckable and then one of the greatest defensive centers of all time at the same time. Yeah, in today's game, Elijah wanted to switch and hold on, which would be nice. He could switch. He had great footwork on the ball off of the defense. He got a little lucky, though. He didn't quite play the –

His two championships were against the Knicks with John Starks. The league was a little bit of a weird place, Sam. Well, Jordan was out. I kind of didn't want to say it that way, but God rest of his soul, David Stern would be like, just don't say the league wasn't good because Jordan wasn't there, but he wasn't. And I really like Elijah Wong, but I got Duncan ahead of him. I got Kareem as the best ever, just because of sheer numbers. But Bill Russell's looking down on me and you're saying, you guys are missing it.

You two aren't listening, he's saying right now. I got 11 rings and nobody beat me. Nobody could beat me, including Will. Kareem had some good runs, but he got beat. Robert Parrish beat him at one time. Moses Malone beat him at one time, right? Don't forget 83. I know.

And Moses should be in the conversation, you know, after we get past... For a couple of years, he was unbelievable, but it took him a long time. But let's stay on track here. Moses beat the Lakers twice, remember, beat him in the... When they were the defending champs, when Magic came off the injury and came back for the postseason. When he was in Houston. Yeah, Moses also... Moses was good.

You got to the finals in 81. That's what he said. Moses eat shit. Bird couldn't help that. that one, my point is this. Bill Russell's up there saying right now, you're not listening. We won. I was never

defeated. Like, I didn't lose my series. I played in those close-out games, as you said, 10 and no in game seven. Like, when it mattered, we won. We won 11 titles. Like, that's it. I won two NCAA titles, and I won 11 titles. Yes, Kareem's

probably second because, you know, Magic and them resurrect his career, which really helped him get a couple more titles. and he got some NCAA titles, I believe, three at NCAA. That's second. Wilts a distant third to those two because he didn't win it as. He didn't have the same supporting cast, though. I mean.

Oh, please. He had Jerry West in those because I don't want to hear that. Yeah. It wasn't the seven Hall of Famers that were on the Celtics or even the 80s Lakers in what they had. No, no, but I'm just saying Wilts doesn't have the win. Moses doesn't have to win. Duncan does, but Duncan couldn't do anything in college. I got to go.

I'm off to South Carolina. God love Bill Russell and Red Arbor back. But I'm saying, Russell's looking down right now saying, see, you who aren't listening, I got the ring. They don't. And then I got Kareem 1 and Wilson won and Wilson too. God love you. You got to go.

We'll save Kevin Durant for the next conversation. Kevin Durant's on Mount Westmore of Best Supporting Act. I'm talking about where he goes next. I'm talking about where he goes next. I'm not talking about his placement on the all-time list. You're the greatest. Love you, Kevin. I love you.

See it. I got to go. Let's see it. Jimmy Patsos, everybody. He is busy today. He's down at the University of South Carolina. They're an Under Armour School. He's got some meetings, but he was nice enough to jump on and share some of those thoughts.

I'm sure Tommy will have a thought or two on Bill Russell on. tomorrow's show. All right, that is it for today. I will be back with Tommy tomorrow.