The Kevin Sheehan Show - Dagger!

Episode Date: March 27, 2021

Kevin opened the show talking about the NFL trades from yesterday and took a guess on what Philadelphia's thinking is in their part of yesterday's drama. Steve Buckhantz was Kevin's guest and it would be easier to list the things they didn't talk about than those things they did discuss but the conversation included....NFL play-by-play voices, state of sports on local tv newscasts, plane crash trivia, Buck's opinion on the current Wizards' broadcast team, and lots more. Kevin had two Sweet 16 "Smell Test" picks also at the end of the show.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Cheyenne Show. Here's Kevin. Steve Buckhantz will be a guest on the podcast today. Looking forward to catching up with Buck, 15 minutes from now. Also a smell test for the Sweet 16 games today.

There are four of them. The four for tomorrow, I will put my Sweet 16 smell test out on Twitter tomorrow. I'm 10 and 10 through the first two rounds. It's nothing to write home about. It was a 7 and 3 start, and I'm 3 and 7 since. So nothing great, but plenty of games left, you know, 8 over the next two days. And then when you add the elite 8 games, we've got 12 games over the next four days in this NCAA tournament. We have to start the show today.

And I'm glad we didn't do a show yesterday before all of the trades that happened in the NFL that really shook up the upcoming draft. If you are following it, you know about these trades. If you're not, I'll recap them very quickly for you. Miami, the dolphins traded number three overall to San Francisco for number 12 overall in this draft. And then the dolphins also got back two first rounders, one in 22 and one in 23, and a third rounder in the 2022 draft. This is, by the way, a continuation of the Laramie Tunsell deal. This was the other first rounder that the dolphins got for Laramie Tunsell. Remember, the dolphins in 2019, late 2019, August of 2019, traded Laramie Tunsell. Kenny Stills, a fourth rounder to Houston for two first round picks, one last year, one this

year, and a second round pick and a couple of other players. It is the trade that keeps on giving, and let's not forget, it's also the trade that I I believe Washington could have been involved in at a lesser value because Trent Williams was an older player. But it is my belief that Washington, if they had been aggressive with Bill O'Brien and Houston, could have dealt Trent Williams to the Texans for a first round pick. The Dolphins got two first rounders in a second, and then you had all of the players involved in the deal. Two first rounders in a second. I guarantee you, Houston was trying to to win that year. Let's not forget that. Houston was trying to win right away. Bill O'Brien was a

total mark for anybody creating trade conversations with Houston. Washington could have gotten a first rounder, in my opinion, from Houston had they been aggressive in trying to move Trent Williams in the summer of 2019. Look at what the dolphins ended up getting for Laramie Tunsell. Again, apples to oranges because of the age, but Trent was a better player. and Trent certainly wasn't old, and if Trent had been available for just a first rounder with Houston trying to win right away, I think that deal would have happened. Now, if they had gotten just one first rounder from Houston, that would have been for last year's draft. So Washington wouldn't have had Houston's number three overall, which the dolphins had for this year's draft. The dolphins got a lot more for Tunsell. But anyway, it's the trade that keeps on giving,

Miami and Miami trades number three overall to San Francisco to the 49ers. So the 49ers move up nine spots and to do that, they've got to give up two firsts and a third, two future firsts and a third. And then Miami used the 49ers number 12 pick that they acquired to move up to number six overall with Philadelphia. All right. So Miami then moves up six spots. to number six overall in a trade with the Eagles. And they get the Eagles number six pick and have to give up their own first rounder, okay, not the acquired first rounders from the 49ers. They've got to give up their own first rounder in 2022 to Philadelphia to move up six spots.

There was also a fourth rounder and a fifth rounder in exchange there, but the net of it is Miami after dealing number three to the 49ers for two firsts and a third, then moved, and that moved them back to 12, then moved up to six, and they had to give up next year's first to Philadelphia to do that. So it means a lot right now as far as the draft goes. Let's sort of take it one team at a time, and it'll work into the order of the draft. But this is my guess on what it means. I think the 49ers, to be honest with you, are the real wild card here.

I would guess that they moved up to number three for a quarterback. That seems like it makes the most sense. Which quarterback, who knows, we'll get to that in a moment. But as far as the dolphins go, you know, moving out of that number three spot, to me, says very obviously that Tua Tua is their long-term quarterback, that they saw enough last year from Tua to believe that he is the long-term solution. and a quarterback. That is a bit of a surprise to me, but Tua had moments, and it's so early to come to a complete decision on Tua. You know, the one thing that I've heard Ryan Fitzpatrick say is that Tua is a really good teammate and a really good worker, and he's got a lot of talent. And the

dolphins, you know, I don't think got the best out of Tua last year, you know, but one of the things that I think they found out was he was healthy enough. to play the position. Remember coming off that hip surgery, there was some concern there. One of the sort of takeaways from yesterday's activity, for me anyway, is Tua is their quarterback. If not, they would have stayed at three, and they would have watched Trevor Lawrence go to Jacksonville. They would have likely seen, I think, Zach Wilson go to the Jets. I think that's what we're starting to hear now a lot, is that Zach Wilson is going to be the pick for the Jets. By the way, his pro day, I mean, people are literally, you know, falling all over themselves about his pro day in shorts yesterday at BYU.

My God, these pro days. And apparently it was the greatest pro day in the history of quarterback pro days. I like Zach Wilson. I do. I watched, you know, I watched him a bunch this year. He's got a chance to be really good. One of the things that I've heard and read, not heard, but read, probably heard as well on ESPN or NFL network, is just the long-shot possibility that Jacksonville comes to the conclusion that

Zach Wilson is better than Trevor Lawrence. Anything could happen. It's Urban Meyer. Urban Meyer knows quarterbacks. Urban Meyer knows offense. Would they pass on Trevor Lawrence, a guy that so many people think is one of the highest rated quarterbacks in recent memory? Certainly Joe Burrow would be in that conversation from last year as well.

My guess is Trevor Lawrence. goes one, and the Jets are going to take Wilson at two, and the 49ers wanted their choice of Lance Fields or Mac Jones. They wanted to have the ability at three to jump in front of Atlanta, to jump in front of potentially a team like Detroit, who's got Jared Gough, well in front of Carolina, who could be in the market for a quarterback, and anybody else that was willing to to trade up with Miami once they found out Miami is sold onto a Tunga Viloa. Could it be that the 49ers really like Jimmy Garapolo and are going to stick with Garoppolo? I don't think so. The dolphins, the number one takeaway to me is the dolphins believe that Tua is their

guy. If not, they would have stayed at number three and drafted the next guy. It means that to me Anyway, for the 49ers moving up to number three, it almost definitely means they're taking a quarterback. You know, I just don't think, and I have heard over the last couple of years, that while Jimmy Garoppolo is a great teammate, great guy, the whole thing, it's not Kyle's kind of guy. And by the way, Kyle's kind of guy is cerebral, major cerebral. You know, it's why he's, he wanted Kirk Cousins so much. You know, he may not be wowed so much by the athleticism of a Trey Lance or Justin Fields, you know, knowing that Zach Wilson, more likely than not is going to number two. Keep in mind, too, the 49ers, because the new coach and a lot of

the people in New York now are 49ers people, I bet they have a pretty good sense of what the Jets were going to do at two. And it's Zach Wilson. So it's Trevor Lawrence, Zach Wilson, and now the 49ers have their choice. Now, if they deemed Kyle Pitts to be the best player in the draft, Could they be moving up so that they get Pitts to put on the field with Kittle, with Garoppolo at quarterback? I mean, we know what Kyle Shanahan and, you know, with a fullback and tight ends and the things he likes to do offensively to keep people off balance. My God, you put Kyle Pitts on the field with George Kittle.

That would be incredible. You could actually debate Kittle as the top tight end in the league, certainly top three. Pitts may be the highest rated tight end to come out in the draft in many, many years. But I think it means the 49ers are taking the quarterback. I think they're taking, I don't know who it's going to be. Is it going to be Lance, who might be more of a long-term project, and then they could keep Garoppolo, or is it going to be Mac Jones because he's cerebral and they think somebody else is going to move up to take Mac Jones,

or could it mean Justin Fields? I think what it means is a quarterback. That's the only thing I think it means for sure. By the way, if it is, so then where does Garoppolo go? One of the things that the 49ers did is they structured the Garoppolo deal so that it was more of a lesser cap hit if they were to move on from him in 2021. If he's on that roster, the cap number is like $25 million. If he's not on the roster, they pay like $2.8 to $3 million in dead money.

So they've got a lot of flexibility without him on the roster. Now, of course, that leads to, well, will the Patriots be looking at Garoppolo? You know, which teams now would be in the market for Garoppolo? We know that the Patriots love Garapolo. The teams that, you know, are still thinking quarterback, whether it's short-term, long-term, you know, Patriots, Denver, Carolina, Washington in terms of a long-term possibility. Which of the teams make sense for Garoppolo? Well, the Patriots make the most sense.

The Panthers are going to try to maneuver to get their quarterback, I think, in the draft. The Saints have James Winston under contract. The Eagles, by the way, and we'll get to what these trades yesterday meant for the Philadelphia Eagles. the Eagles have basically moved themselves out of the drafting position for a quarterback. Does that mean they could be in business for Garoppolo? I don't know. I doubt it. I think it means they really are going to take next year to find out whether or not Jalen Hertz is their guy. And if Hertz is their guy, they're set.

And if he isn't, then the Eagles will have a chance the following year to do something with the pick, the pick that they got from Miami along with their own. The Patriots for Garoppolo, remember, the Newton deal, the Newton deal is a one-year deal that isn't worth that much money. I mean, I think it's a $2 million deal, right, in 2021. So it's not a lot of money. So 49ers jumping up to three with Miami, you know, netting it out to me means that Miami sold on Tunga Viloa. It means that the 49ers won a quarterback, which means Garoppolo now is available. And then let's take it to the next day.

Let's take it to the next trade, excuse me. Miami then moves up to six. Well, moving down from three to six, you know, three to twelve and then up to six, but netting it out, they lose three spots. They pick up some picks in the process, though, means they're not going to be in position to draft the quarterback that they want, but they are going to be, because they've made the decision on the quarterback, they are going to be in position to draft one of the big time receivers or the big tackle out of Oregon, Penae Sewell. They're going to look for help for Tunga Viloa. And they're going to have, you know, after the three quarterbacks,

let's say go one, two, three, say Lawrence, let's say Wilson, and let's just say it's Lance to the 49ers. Maybe it's Mack Jones, maybe it's Justin Fields, but three quarterbacks gone. And then the Falcons are going to take somebody there at four, you know, and that could be pits. That could be a quarterback, too, or it could be a trade spot. Cincinnati may take Sewell.

They're looking for help for Burrow, offensive line help, which is going to leave the dolphins with their choice of some of the best receivers, right? Jamar Chase, Devante Smith, Waddle, etc. They're going to have their choice for big-time wide receivers at six after the maneuvering. So Philadelphia, look, Philadelphia, tells you by moving from number six that they are settled in on Jalen Hertz. By the way, they signed Joe Flacco. I don't know if you caught that or not. Flacco is going to be his backup. Philadelphia now gets a year to work out whether or not Hertz is their guy. Remember, too,

they've got the big $35 million cap hit for the Wentz trade. This is for Philadelphia out of the four teams in the division. This is really, you know, sort of a year, a rebuild. year, you know, a transition year. However you want to describe it. Look, they've got some good players and maybe Hertz turns out to be a really good player and they end up contending in the division. I'm not discounting that, not in this division. But they're really viewing this as, you know, we're eating all of the wents money on the trade. We're going to, we just traded back from six, so we're not a real player in the quarterback race to even move up, et cetera. We're back, you know, at 12. We picked up the Miami pick for next year.

their pick. We'll have our own pick next year. We've got much more cap space next year in 2022. 2021 is a transition year for Philadelphia. They're going to figure out whether Hertz is the guy or not. And they're also going to have to have the ability, excuse me, to draft a really good player at number 12 overall. A fascinating day yesterday. You know, I think you now look at number one, you know, Trevor Lawrence to Jacksonville. Two is more likely than not Zach Wilson to the Jets. Three is a quarterback. You know, call it Lance Jones or Fields to the 49ers. And now the Falcons are in position to maneuver back for, you know, the quarterbacks that don't get taken there.

Cincinnati, I think they're going to stay at five and they're going to look to help burrow out, whether it's Sewell to tackle or a big-time receiver. And then the dolphins are looking to help two out at number six. You know, Carolina is still in the market for quarterback. Detroit might be. Denver might be. the ability to maneuver up. Philadelphia is sitting back there at 12. They're going to get a really good player at 12, plus they picked up, you know, the extra pick for next year. So, fascinating day in

the NFL. I think there are going to be more of these deals between now and the first night of the draft at the end of next month. But I think it at least told us that the 49ers want to replace Garoppolo. The dolphins are fine with Tonga Vailoa, and the Eagles, are fine for sort of waiting a year and figuring out Hertz and clearing up their cap space and then making a bigger move in 2022. Again, I don't think the Eagles are bailing on 2021. Hertz might be the guy. And they've got some good players and they've got some good talent. And they're in a division that isn't great. But anyway, fascinating day in the NFL. All right. Steve Buchance will be my guest right after this word from one of our sponsors. All right. Let's bring in one of my all-time.

favorite people, my mentor in many ways, Steve Buchance, the first job I ever had was working for Steve Buchance and Ernie Bauer, but really for Steve Buchance at Channel 5, although I've told you this many times in the past. It was actually Joe Fowler who hired me as an intern. And then like a month after my internship started, he was gone, you came in, and then literally I was offered a job like three months later. And it was. And I've told you this before, but for those that haven't heard it, for a young person to have worked for Buck as their first job, it really was incredible. And I say that in the most complimentary way. Forget about all the fun we had because we had a lot of fun.

But the best part, and I mean this, because not every young person has the same experience in their first job. You know, a lot of young people end up working for assholes or people who are massively egoed or whatever. Buck would was such an encourager. You know, Buck would give, you know, everybody work and let him do it. Now, if he didn't like it, he would let you know. And there were certainly many nights where Buck would, that highlight, what are you even talking about here? And there was a New Year's Eve debacle one year where Yashirov, Joe Yashirov and I were on the end of quite a scathing discussion with Buck. But seriously, you know, for young people, you know, I think about like my own boys, you know, it's like you just want their first real job to be with people who are secure, who encourage, who give work, who, you know, trust.

And that's what you were, like in all those years. And then on top of it, we had the benefit of when the show was over, we're all going out and we're drinking on Buck. Buck wouldn't let one person and not one of us ever was allowed to pick up a tab no matter where we went. That's true. Sign of the whale, all of those places. Nice of you to say, Kevin. You guys owe me $4,326,000. Yeah, well, that was the invoice in 1990 or 1989. There's a lot of interest attached to that now. We did have some fun. And we had a great time. Listen, if you remember, all of the other reporters, or at least the ones that had some interest in sports, and even sometimes the ones that didn't, would congregate into our sports office because that's where they knew they could escape the newsroom to come and actually have fun with guys. So whether it was David Burnett or, you know, sometimes Sue Palka would come in. Oh, yeah. And all of them would congregate with us because they knew they could hang out. We had a big sports office.

and it was a lot of fun and everybody had desks. And we really did. And then you and I, when we used to do the tennis tournament, you know, that was good, I mean, that was live TV, you know, we had a short time to produce whatever it was, a 15-minute show or a half an hour show from the tennis center. And the fact is that you guys learned from the things that I knew. And in Washington, that was my fifth TV station, all right? I had already worked in Harrison Bird, in Chattanooga, in Nashville, at WSB in Atlanta, one of the great TV stations in the country.

So I had the benefit of learning from a lot of these other people and getting experience at all these other TV stations and then coming to Washington. So when Joe Fowler hired you as an intern, I was actually doing weekends. Yeah, you were. Because Bernie Smilovitz was there first, and I came in 84 to work for Bernie. And when Bernie left, they didn't put me in the number one spot. They hired Joe Fowler. And then he lasted a year. And then when he was gone, that's when they moved me up.

So I had the benefit of getting a lot of experience at these other TV stations and then being able to pass it along to guys like you and Yasharoff and Frank Chrysafoli and Larry Duvall and of course, Gus Johnson and Scott Pat Pelt and all of these people that we worked with. You just started with half of your broadcasting tree. There are many more that have fallen off the Buckhands tree. But I wanted to just, you mentioned the 10. tennis thing. For those that don't remember, you know, there was a big-time men's tennis event every year down at 16th in Kennedy. I mean, it was called all sorts of different things.

I was a ball boy as a sixth grader when it was the Washington Star tournament on clay. And I actually ball boy did Jimmy Conner's match. I swear to God. And he was terrifying. Terrifying. I'm sure he was. But it's so funny because I loved tennis and I played tennis and I couldn't give a shit about tennis anymore. But you just reminded me those nights we would do, seriously, think about this for tennis. We would do an hour show each night of the tennis tournament recapping that day's action at the tennis tournament. Like who, I mean, who actually cared about it? But there are a couple of things that just you jogged my memory on. Number one was I had to get out there at nine in the morning. I was there at nine in the morning when the action started until

we went off the air at 11 o'clock. Or no, it was midnight because the show would come on at 11 and it was an hour. Buck would show up, you know, basically at about 1045 and say, what do we got, babe? What do we got? But do you remember who produced those shows? He is an Emmy Award winning Hollywood producer. Right. So it was Glenn Weiss?

Glenn Weiss. Yeah. Glenn Weiss, who turned out to be quite a big deal in Hollywood. It's huge. Yeah, huge was the producer of those shows. And I remember Glenn was like, he didn't even understand why he was down there doing this. And he was more of the director, I guess. And he did the same thing.

He just said, hey, man, you just put it all together. And I don't know who these people are, these players are. I don't even know, you know, I don't even know what the net is there for, which line is which line. And so we would do that show. and it was just, it had to be hideous to watch because it was tennis highlights. But anyway, those were fun days. But also, Joe Fowler, who did hire me at Channel 5, he's become like the infomercial king. He's the infomercial guy.

Is he still doing it? He does a seal or whatever that thing is. And he wears the big plaid shirt. And he's made quite a career for himself. He's very good at that, you know, because as a sportscaster, I, you know, I'm not so sure. as an infomercial. I mean, he's an actor. Yes.

He's been in movies, obviously. He was in a Stallone movie, and I think he was acting a little bit as a sportscaster, because he really didn't know a lot of that much about sports, but he does know how to communicate and how to be and how to sell. And obviously, as a infomercial guy, he's very, very good at what he does. What do you think, I mean, he's been doing these infomercials for a long period of time. And you're right. more of an actor than a sportscaster.

And remember who everybody thought he looked like? Thysman. Yeah, Thysman. Yeah. And at the time, that was a strike against you. Right. Because people were, you know, Joe wasn't in broadcasting yet. He was in, you know, playing.

And people weren't, you know, they don't revere him, I think, as they do now. Back then, he was just Thysman and people thought he was cocky or whatever. But now, you know, I mean, he's, you know, he's very well respected, obviously. But yeah, that's why he had a strike against him. What do you think Joe Fowler's made? Do those guys that have been pimping products infomercial-wise for years? Have they made a lot of money? Yeah, from the few people I've spoken with that know him or that know what he does, yeah, they really do make a lot of money.

And I think it's a really good career of how to do that. And he does it really well. Yeah, I mean, that's amazing. It's funny. I just Googled him, and there are some pictures from him at Channel 5, some images. is man, he was young. I want to say, correct me if I'm wrong, that he came from San Antonio. Yeah, because he and another guy that came with us.

Yeah, the producer. Yeah, very good friends. And, yes, I think he was in San Antonio before that. But, you know, when he came and when they put him in the number one spot before I got the number one spot at Channel 5, you know, he's going up against George Michael and Glenn Brenner. and I guess Frank was at Channel 7. And, you know, that's a tough spot to be in, to come in where nobody knows who you are. They've never seen you before.

And he had a very outgoing personality, almost, you know, dominating to a fault. Bit obnoxious, really. Bit obnoxious. And people didn't take to that real well. And so when you come in and you are competing against the likes of Brenner and Michael, who are legendary, were legendary, you have to create a, niche for yourself. You can't just come in, you know, full throttle and take and get people's attention. You got to kind of come in the back door and create a following and create, you know, that niche. And he didn't do that. He came on like gangbusters and that heard him, I think. And so after

a year, you know, they didn't go for it. I think some people were just turning the channel. And that's when they said, okay, this experiment didn't work. And that's when then I got the opportunity. Yeah, which, and then we ended up, you know, for those several years with Brenner, Michael, Herzog, and Buck, and it was the legendary days of local, you know, television sports, which I want to get to here momentarily, but you mentioned, you know, Bernie's name. When I got hired, I actually was doing Harvey's weekends. You know, Harvey Smilovitz, Bernie's younger brother was doing weekends when you got the main chair. and he took your chair, your weekend chair. I mean, I loved Harvey. Harvey was the nicest guy,

but there were just so many memories of those Saturdays with Harvey coming in. He'd stop at Burger King on the way in and bring everybody food. But Harvey, if you recall, was a little bit overweight. And Harvey got involved, and I think it was a Nutrisystem deal. He was on one of these Nutrisystem diet things, and maybe he was getting paid for it. But there was like a three-war.

week period where Harvey came in on Saturday and he's passing out the food but he's not eating it himself and he is sweating profusely from whatever this diet was and he's on air one night and he nearly keeled over. I mean the sweat was pouring off his forehead. It's like what's his face from broadcast news? Albert Brooks. Yeah, Albert Brooks and broadcast news. And Harvey and I remember his wife got what was her name. Do you remember her name? I don't even know if they're married anymore. She was a sweetheart, and she called me, and she's like, what is wrong with Harvey? He looks terrible.

He looks like death. And I said, well, you're starving him, God damn it? Let the guy eat. And it was just a nightmare for him for a couple of weeks. And then finally, he's like, this isn't working. Like, I think he lost weight, but he was, like, getting sick at the same time. I don't want to demean Nutris system. It may not have been Nutris system.

It may have been something else, but whatever. And he's such a great guy. Both he and Bernie are two of the nicest guys, good friends. Yeah. Nicest dudes. Harvey was one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet. Still is. I saw him not too long ago.

Where did you see him? Where is he these days? He's local. And I saw him out at Woodmont Country Club. We had lunch. And he's, yeah, he's a great guy. And then I had seen Bernie twice a year when we go to Detroit. We'd always get together and have lunch or whatever.

You know, he'd come see me at wherever a hotel I was staying or I'd go to his. house or, you know, I just talked to him the other day. He's been doing his sports. Of course, he's been doing sports in Detroit for, I don't know, 30 years. And he's been doing it from his home every night since the pandemic started. He's loving it. He's loving life. He's still doing sports in Detroit. My God. Yes, he is. Wow. And he's huge there. I mean, when we would go out there, people would freak out when they'd see him. You know, it was like seeing Glenn Brenner or George Michael here. You know, people would just flip out. So he's very, very, very recognizable and he's very good at what he does and they love him at that TV station.

They keep redoing his contracts and good for him. And I keep saying, Bernie, when are you going to get out of there and come back home or, you know, because, I mean, Detroit is a great city, but it's cold. But he has a beautiful house on a lake and his wife, Donna's a great person and she's very smart. He's a psychologist. And so that, you know, and his kids are very successful. One of his boys was a writer for David Letterman. Oh, really?

Yeah, and now does his own stuff. He worked on the cartoon president show, and he's a very, very smart and gifted writer, and his other boy is very smart as well. So they, yeah, they're enjoying themselves there. They haven't been for years. Wow. You know, Bernie also did, you know, in the days of, you know, when Sports Talk was basically just a couple of hours of night, a night on W.

MAL with Ken Beatrice. Bernie also did stuff with Phil Wood and Al Koken on WTOP. He had a sports talk radio show at night on WTOP. I remember listening to it. I mean, I obviously remember Bernie much more from Channel 5 before he moved on, but he was, I think, you know, I'd have to go to Andy Pollan on this because he remembers every single sports talk host in the history of the town. But I believe in the late 7th.

maybe into the early 80s, Bernie was doing a sports talk show in WTOP radio. By the way. It's possible. And excuse me, that was back when, you know, like you said, Ken Bientress was basically the first guy that you listened to and the guy that you believed and trusted. And the guy you said, wow, this man knows everything. And really the forerunner of what's become today with sports talk radio. Yeah. So Steve Buchan's joining us. So what is this? I mean, Bernie Smilovitz is still on the air. Like how many cities still have guys that have been on the air forever, which means, by the way, I'm assuming they're continuing to pay whatever big salary he's been making for a long period of time. They see the value in that. And yet, you know, we've seen what sports on local television newscasts, you know, what it's, you know, what it's. become here, which is basically insignificant. I mean, Channel 4 doesn't even have a sportscaster.

Nor does Channel 5. Channel 5 doesn't. Channel 7 has Scott and Channel 9 has Darren, right? Right, right. But so what do you make of this? Like, it has it, yeah, go ahead. Yeah, well, here's what I make of it. First of all, and, you know, Bernie has been there for a long time. Now, he left and went to New York for about a year to, to, I want to say WCBS. I mean, big time TV station. And for whatever reason, one night this cracks me up. You went there for a, you know, a huge salary, like a million dollars or something. And for whatever reason, one night the news director came in after the news and fired everybody on the set. The weather person, the sports guy, I think the news anchor, just let them all go.

And luckily, Bernie was able to go back to Detroit, and I want to say that the guy that was working for him there, and I'm going to make sure Bernie hears this podcast because he'll enjoy it. But I want to say the guy that was working at his station was Van Earl Wright. Yeah, right. And it just so happened that either he was leaving or they didn't like him or whatever, and Bernie said, listen, I'd like to come back because I'm not going to be in New York anymore. and they welcomed him with open arms and they said, yeah, the slot is yours.

So he went back to the station that he left and went back to work there. Now, he was making great, you know, money, big time money. And I don't know, we didn't talk about this, but I don't know if they ever asked him to take a pay cut, which a lot of TV and radio stations have done, as you know. When did this happen? When did he go to New York and then back? This was several years ago. I don't have my years in order.

It might have been 10 years ago. I'm not sure. Right. But yeah, it was a huge move because he was up there. You know, Brian Williams is, he and Brian Williams are good friends. Brian obviously was at Channel 5 when I was there. Right. And they're very good friends.

So now they're both in New York together, which was kind of neat. But anyway, Bernie went back to his station in Detroit. They welcomed him back. They continued to pay him huge money. I think he, you know, still makes a really, really good living. But the difference is, Kevin, to get to your point, So why he's able to do that in certain situations. Here's a comparison.

It would be like them saying, well, you know what, we're not going to pay Dorian Gensler at Channel 4 what we paid her before. And they may not be, I don't know, or we don't really need her. Well, the fact is they do need her because she's the one person that's left

from what, you know, was a very, very strong group of talent with Jim Van Gogh. and Bob Ryan and George Michael. That was, she's the one person left. Now, they've complimented her now with Doug Camer and Jim Hanley and, you know, and that's fine. That's good.

But it would be like losing her. That's the one cog left that's keeping that whole machine together. Well, Bernie is a very, very valuable asset to their news operation as well. Once you get to be that well liked and that recognizable, there gets to be a point where they don't want to lose you, you know, because so often TV stations can say, well, we don't really need him. Let's get rid of him. We'll bring somebody else in, pay him a third of the salary. And that's what's happened in TV news. And, of course, the standards and the bar have really been lowered because of that. But with somebody like that, where you realize they're helping keeping the audience together

and the ratings up, then you don't want to lose somebody like that. And that's why he continues to be there because he's good, he's recognizable, people like him a lot, and he's a big asset to their news organization. In today's world, there aren't that many people like that left around, you know, you have Doreen, but all the other anchors come and go because they're not here long enough to establish that kind of rapport with the viewership. Bernie has been there for, like I said, I don't know, 30 years, so he's got that that recognizableability and that like factor. It's like Sue Palka at Channel 5. That's another example. Yeah. She's so recognizable and well-liked and entrenched in this market that they continue

to sign her to contracts because she's an asset to the news organization. And you don't want to lose somebody like that if you can help it. Well, your intention wasn't this at all, but I will just say that this is part of why so many people felt really wronged when you and Phil were taken off, you know, the Wizards broadcast. You be, it's not just that you're good, which you know, I think you're, you're one of the best and Phil too, but it's because you became part of everybody's habit and you became part of the reason that they watched. What's interesting about what you described is that, you know, sports has changed so much.

I thought you would also mention the fact that, you know, just local sports, you know, by the time you get to 11, you know, 18 p.m. for the 11 o'clock news, people have already seen the games on the, they've seen the highlights, they've seen them on their phone. There's just not much use. So unless it's a big time personality or draw, then you can really get away with going super low expense or even, you know, excluding it all together. Yes, you can. That's an excellent point. And you described it perfectly. And it's because of all, the things you mentioned that TV sports locally is completely different than it was 20 years ago. You didn't have all that exposure 20 years ago, A, and B, you were used to watching the local news to get your local sports.

So if you wanted to hear about the Washington football team, you watched Glenn or George or me or Frank or whatever, because you knew that's where you were going to get the inside information. You weren't going to get it from ESPN or Fox probably didn't even have a show back then. you weren't and there weren't roundtable shows like PTI and things like that you don't you don't you weren't getting your news from those things so you had to watch the local news and it wasn't that you had to watch it you wanted to watch it and and the reason you watch the sports mainly was because you were watching the news everybody watched the local news to get their news and and first and foremost to get the weather which we heard from every news director we ever work right

the weather the weather is still i think the highest rated part absolutely no doubt about it always has been always will. But you also knew that that's where you were going to get your highlights for all four major sports. You were going to get them from guys that you had been, you know, love to watch forever. You tuned in to watch Glenn and you tuned in to watch George because they were, you know, very unique personalities.

And not only do we not have that anymore locally, but nobody's going to get the chance to be that anymore because they're not getting a lot of time at 11, 18. People are going to sleep. Like you said, people aren't watching for the sports. So because of that, these news directors realize that we don't really have to have a sports person. We can easily have Jim Handley or Doreen Gensler read a few lines about the caps who got another goal from Ovechkin or, you know, the Wizards who, Bradley Beale had 32 points. and we don't have to have a personality do that.

And by doing that with our anchors, we save a hell of a lot of money. And we only give them maybe two minutes for sports or whatever it is. And we don't need to have, you know, fun, insightful anchors who do neat stories and packages, as we used to call them, about sports. We don't really need that anymore. No.

And it really, you know, every time we have conversations about, you know, the business, you know, especially the television local business. I mean, I just, we all remember, especially those of us that are from here, and you're a part of it, that golden era with Glenn Brenner and George Michael and Frank Herzog, and then you on Channel 5. And, you know, I remember when all four of you were together at the Super Bowl, at the San Diego Super Bowl, that was an incredible moment locally in sports. You know, for those people have heard me tell this story before, but I'll tell it again.

working for Buck at Channel 5, we had the first sports cast of the night because we were part of the 10 o'clock news on Fox Channel 5. So sports came on, you know, somewhere between 1045 and 1050, and Buck, you know, would get, you know, maybe three, four, five minutes of time sometimes. And then we would sit around before we'd, you know, head off to the sign of the whale or Matt Hatter or somewhere on 19th Street or somewhere in Georgetown for. or, you know, to over-serve ourselves until about 2.30 in the morning, Buck would say, we're not going out yet. And he'd sit there with a stopwatch and he would time how much time Glenn Brenner and George Michael would get. And every single night, it was the same.

God damn it, George got eight minutes tonight. Brenner got seven and a half. You know what I got? I got five. I got five. Yeah. It was infuriating. Yeah.

You know, that's the way it was. And we were lucky that we were able to do that because, Like you say, we weren't on at the same time. So I enjoyed watching Glenn and George, but mainly I watched to see if they were going to break some kind of a story or have some kind of a story that we didn't have. And it would happen on occasion. And that's when I, that's when you and Joe Yashiroff and the other guys would hear it for me. It was really, how come they have this and we didn't get it or whatever. Yeah.

Now, back in the day, George had, you know, at NBC4, which is owned by NBC. Right. It was an O&O. Right. They had, you know, five or six huge satellites, and he had four or five interns that could sit and watch games and get a pick a great highlight off of a game. Now, nowadays, you can get highlights from anywhere. But back then, you had to get it off a satellite. And so you had to be tuned into a specific game. And then the interns would be charged with the task of picking the best play from one of those games. And he would invariably, that night, have the best highlights and the best video of any of the sportscasters. Glenn, of course, would often get some of the same highlights, but that didn't matter because his attraction was his personality and his comedic genius. And so you watched him and Gordon Peterson because they were the best there was.

So anyway, we were at a disadvantage because we didn't have six satellites. Sometimes we had one that I could use for sports and have one intern, maybe, or maybe to, you know, watch some games and try to get me highlights. And so we'd pick them off wherever we could. But, yeah, it was a real interesting time. And those guys, you know, it was fabulous to be able to sit there and watch those guys and just sort of compare what you had and what they had. And, you know, for the people that worked for George, though,

it was a completely different experience than working for you. You know, one last thing on that era. Okay. I think I'm right about this. Your favorite was Glenn, right? Absolutely. Yeah. But not to say that George wasn't spectacular or what he did.

I mean, he was genius. There were two different sportscasters, you know. George was a showman, okay? He was an entertainer. He was a showman. Glenn was just a natural comic genius. and I say natural because I've been around the country into 29 other cities for the NBA

and I've watched every sports guy there is in every major market and there are some really good ones but no one's ever come close to Glenn Brenner there never will be anybody like it there have been funny guys in other markets that people laugh at but not like this guy nobody is quick nobody is quick-witted as Brenner and and the the dynamic the relationship that he had with Gordon Peterson was really perfect. The best.

You tuned in to see that. No doubt. And the way they used to just absolutely annihilate Gordon Barnes, the weather got you on a nightly basis when Barnes got a forecast messed up or any of them. Any of the anchors, whether it was J.C. Hayward or Marine Bunyan or any of the anchors, even Max Robinson, the late Max Robinson was there. I mean, yeah, they were, that was something special that we'll never see again, I don't think. And if Glenn were alive today and still working, which I'm sure he'd be retired by now, he'd be making, you know, $5 million a year. Yeah.

Just way too young. Such a tragedy. Never forget it. All right. Buck's going to stick around for just a few minutes more because I want to talk about who he likes today. By the way, I think I mentioned this. And if I didn't, Buck and Phil are doing a podcast on the road with Buck and Phil. It's an excellent podcast.

You can get it anywhere. you get a podcast. And so listen to those guys. But we'll do a little bit more with Buck right after this word from one of our sponsors. Whenever I have Buck on radio or the podcast, invariably we work our way into plane crash conversation. But we'll save that for the next one. But I always get like if I tease that you're coming up on the radio show or, you know, you don't really get to do that with a podcast, I can't tell you how many times I'll get from somebody.

Are you guys going to do plane crash talk? Because to me, that's the best stuff you guys ever do. Buck and I, but Buck even more so. I'm more fascinated with weather, but I have always been a big plane crash guy. Buck can tell you about the worst aviation disasters in history, down to the absolute last and final minor injury that took place on any of these crashes. It's a morbid subject, man. It is a morbid subject. But whenever it happened, and you know, here's the one that I remember.

because we were at work that day. It was the United DC-10 that crashed in Iowa. No, no, no, no, no, no. The one that lost hydraulics, and went down in Sioux City. In Sioux City, Iowa. Yeah, Dave Feldman was working there at the time. Wait, so that wasn't, you weren't working at Channel 5? I was, but Dave Feldman was working in Sioux City at the time.

Oh, no, because you and I. I remember, because I'm going to say that it was 1989. I'm going to look that up. United, D.C. 10, Sioux City, Iowa, Sioux Falls, right? Sue City. July 19th, 1989. Okay, that was the date of that crash.

United Airlines Flight, 232. And I was at Channel 5. And I sat there. We came in and we were trying to get you to do work. We were trying to get you to voice something or, You know, come in and take a look at this, and you're like, no way, babe. I'm here. And I sat there with you in your office and we watched this stuff and we watched the reporting coming in. And you were mesmerized and I was mesmerized.

I've always been, for whatever reason, I think I don't think we're the only ones. I think a lot of people, you know, love sort of the details. I find myself many times on YouTube late at night doing a lot of different things. but sometimes it will lead to sort of the the worst plane crashes in history and there's the video you'll be able to tell me which one the the flight that crashed in San Diego

yeah that was a Pacific that was a PSA flight yeah it crashed into a neighborhood and you see there's video of that right well there's a great picture of it but it hit it collided with a small plane like a Cessna 1.72. Right. Something like that. And you've seen the, the horrifying

picture of the plane, which was a 727, nose down on fire. And somebody took an amazing picture. People can Google it. It's just, and, you know, that was a horrifying crash. Now, look, I want to preface this for people that are listening. I mean, I don't just like morbid plane crashes. I've got my pilot's license, and that's why I'm so into all of this. And whether, well like you and Sue and all of that stuff I'm into all of that because of my flying experience but but but and then now on TV if you watch air disasters on I think it's usually watch it all the time yeah you can see everyone that's ever occurred right and it's fascinating because they show you what happened and then

they work backwards with the NTSB they work backward to to to decipher you know what happened and how and it could be the most minute thing like a little bolt coming off of some, you know, engine, you know, ratchet or something that caused the plane to go down. So I've watched all of those air disasters. I think a lot of people do. But yeah, that's why I'm fascinated. And a lot of the Black Box, you know, pilot recordings are available, including the Air Florida crash. You can hear those pilots.

The audio exists. And it's horrifying audio. By the way, you know, I learned something here recently, and I don't know if you knew it or not. but when Tiger Woods had his accident, you know, a few weeks ago, I didn't realize that there were black boxes and vehicles and cars. I didn't either. And I heard that as well. And that surprised me because obviously they knew that he never touched his brakes,

which leads people to believe that maybe he fell asleep or was texting or whatever. I don't know. But that's what I had heard about that, that he never touched the brakes. And then people were like, well, geez, you know, why doesn't he have a driver, you know, at that point? But anyway, yeah. All right, we'll move. We'll move on from that. I mean, we could do that for hours.

I love just bringing up, you know, sort of something I've read about recently or found on YouTube. And Buck immediately knew which aviation accident it was. It was 1978 San Diego, and the picture of the plane going down into this neighborhood is absolutely terrifying. It is. I mean, you don't get many of that. You got one with the one in Chicago, the American flight. Right. That flipped.

Didn't it sort of flip sideways or whatever? Yeah. And that's where the person took the picture. So when the plane flipped sideways, it was literally, you know, rolling over. So the person that took the picture had the plane when it was on its side. And you could see one of the engines was missing. It had it had broken off and actually gone up over top of the wing. This was on takeoff.

So when the guy took the picture, the plane was already off the ground, turned sideways and there was no engine there. So that's obviously one of the ways that the on takeoff, right? That was a takeoff. On takeoff. So the NTSB could look at that picture and say, they didn't have an engine. Right. And the other thing that was horrible when Kevin, if you remember, this is back when American Airlines had used this little experiment where they put a camera in the back of the cockpit.

And then on the TV screens, the people in the back, the people, the passengers could watch the takeoff. landing, which was really cool to be able to do, except tragically they were able to see that on this flight. And I can only imagine what that was like. You know, there was recently, and it could have been old, and I forget now, there was a documentary, an HBO documentary on Leonard Skinnerd, you know, and a lot of their members died in a plane crash. And that part of it was really fascinating to hear. They should have never flown. There was an issue with the plane, and they push forward anyway on a flight, you know, and not great weather, the whole thing. And what, I mean, more times than not, right, it's weather than anything else.

Yeah, that's probably the biggest factor in an airline crash or airplane crashes, yeah, is weather. Even if you look at the JFK tragedy, it was weather because what happened was because he took off so much later than he wanted to, he got into a situation where he was now flying at dusk over water in a hazy situation. And then it became nighttime. And so now he had no visual reference to anything. And he was not an instrument-rated pilot. He had done some work instrument-rated, but couldn't sustain it. So he got out over the ocean with no horizon available.

It was dark, hazy. And then he got into what we call spatial disorientation. Right. The Kobe Bryant pilot, same thing. Yeah, just the, you know, he probably went into a spin or some kind of a, you know, free fall and didn't even know it. But weather, yes, weather is the biggest factor as opposed to say a collision or maybe an aircraft losing a, you know, engine or a wing or something like that. Weather is definitely, I mean, if you're a VFR pilot, which is visual flight rules, which means you can only go up like a day like today when it's sunny, you have to adhere to that. because if you push it, like you said, if you go up when the weather is questionable,

that's when you get yourself into trouble. And the spatial disorientation essentially is what the pilot of Kobe Bryant's helicopter had. That's what I hear. Now, it's a little unusual because he obviously was an instrument pilot, you know, a helicopter pilot that knew how to fly on instruments. But, you know, you get into that area out there in Calabasas where there's all these mountains and he's he's low enough to to you know come into contact with one and then the weather is

in and out and maybe he wasn't using his instruments maybe he was flying visually yeah i don't know i don't know the specifics of that but um you know special disorientation is when you you lose your um up versus down yeah well yeah it's your whole in your whole mental you know you you're not able to look at your instruments and trust what they say because and then you don't know which way is up, you don't know which way is down, you don't know how fast you're going. And if you haven't, if you're not instrument rated and you aren't able to pay attention to those instruments and fly by them and trust them, then that's when you lose your orientation and you just you can't recover from that.

All right. Let's move on to a different subject. One of the reasons I wanted to have you on today is I want to talk about, like, you know, who you like and who you don't like. So I'll get to that in a moment, but did you see real quickly, Did you see what happened in the Houston Rockets Timberwolves game last night? No, didn't. The Houston Rockets did not score a point in the final seven minutes in 30 seconds of the game.

Not one point did they score. They had a six. The wall was playing. They made a bucket with 730 to go. They had a 16 point lead, 101 to 85. They did not score again, and they lost the game 107 to 101. I don't think I've ever seen that before. I've heard a teams going in droughts.

I've heard of teams where they haven't made a field goal, but they made a free throw. Yeah. Ever a team that didn't score a point in seven minutes. Not one point over the final seven and a half minutes. The rockets are terrible. I mean, they had the 20-game losing streak, and they ended up being outscored 31 to 10 in the quarter, but the 10 came in the first four and a half minutes of the quarter, none in the final seven and a half. I haven't, you know, I don't really watch them.

and I don't even look at their highlights, but I said this to Phil the other day on the podcast, what the hell's going on in Houston? I mean, this team lost 20 straight games that's a franchise record. Forget about franchise. Who loses 20 games in a row? Right.

You know, and I couldn't believe it. And I thought, wait a minute, I haven't been paying that much attention to Houston. I know John Wall was there, but are they that bad? Where they're losing 20 games in a row? So that was stunning to me to see that. And I don't know why it is,

but I asked him about it, but that's amazing. By the way, these were, you know, two of the worst teams in the NBA last night. Actually, I think literally the two worst teams in the NBA last night, the T-Wolves and the Rockets. Of course, the Wizards are another bad basketball team right now. And we'll save that for another time because to be honest with you, I think we're at this point right now. I don't know that a lot of people care that much, especially with the trade deadline having come and gone and Beal's still on the squad. And are you watching? Yeah, I watch every game.

I'm able this year to watch with the sound up, Kevin. I wasn't able to do that last year. Okay. Well, then that leads me to this. What do you think of it with the sound up? Well, I guess maybe I should be diplomatic here. But, you know, I did a lot of games with Drew Gooden, obviously. He was a very close friend.

And I love him, actually. He's a great guy and funny dude. And we had a good, I thought we had a really good rapport on the games that we did the last season I was there because when Carol Lawson wasn't able to do games, Drew would fill in. And I thought maybe that'd be a reason that they'd bring me back was because we did have good chemistry. Anyway, you know, look, I think the guy that's doing the games, Justin is a good play-by-play guy and competent. I've told this to people before. He's fine, he's good, and Drew is really good.

But it's not me and Phil. That's the difference between the two, whether you, you like one group or you don't like the other, it doesn't matter. As you said before, people grew up, I mean, literally grew up with me and Phil doing the games for 20 years. So if you were 10 when you started watching the Wizards, and then 20 years later, now you're 30 and you're a grown man, you're still, you know, you're watching me and him. It'd be like any other Mike Gorman in Boston or Mike Breed in New York, although he took over at some point from Mar of Albert. but, you know, Eric Reed in Miami or George Blaha in Detroit. I mean, you know, Bob Rathman in Atlanta, I could go on and on and on.

These are guys that people are used to seeing. Yeah. And you look like I grew up with Jim Carvelas. Right. Who was a great. Bullseye. One of the greatest announcers and nicest guys you'll ever meet, by the way, passed away. But what a great announcer.

And that's who, when I hear his voice, my hair goes up on the back of my neck. He had a voice. He was fabulous. Yeah. And then Tony Roberts on the radio. doing the bullets. So these are the guys that made an impression on me that I grew up with. And if one of them was pulled away like I had been, I'd have, I'd have been in, I didn't need a psychological help. I would have been really hurt as a lot of people were. Yeah. Well, it's always, you know,

also the flip side, it's, it's very hard to follow, you know, someone like you and Phil. I mean, I'm sure it hasn't been necessarily easy for them. You know, it's funny. I grew up listening to Frank Herzog called the bullets on radio. But then he left and was replaced by maybe my favorite all-time play-by-play radio guy doing basketball. And that was Mel Proctor, who I thought was phenomenal on radio. He was great at everything he did. But he was the voice of the bullets in 79. Herzog called the title in 78.

And then Proctor was there the next year. and then for a few years, and I thought Proctor was great. He was fabulous, and I got to meet him, obviously, in different situations. I love the guys. It's terrific dude. But, yes, I thought he was fabulous as well, and he did TV, obviously, for a long time with Phil on HCS. And, yes, I thought Mel Proctor was a great play-by-play guy. And, of course, he did Orioles TV while John Miller did the radio, and they were both basically let go or forced out or whatever you want to call it by Peter Angelos,

which lets you know that you can be really the best at what you do, and if the owner doesn't like you, you're gone. I mean, the best example I can give you is Marv Albert, who Dolan, who owns the Knicks, thought that Marv was being too critical of the team, and then he left and was doing Nets radio, TV, and then obviously TNT now. But if you can get rid of Marv Albert, who is a living legend in New York,

then you can get rid of anybody. And that happened with John Miller and Mel Proctor in Baltimore. Miller is the best baseball announcer there is. And he loved doing Oriole Gates. And because for whatever reason, Angelo's didn't want them there or whatever, they were gone. Mel went out to do San Diego Padres baseball.

John Miller went to do San Francisco Giants. which is a great gig, although he loved being in Baltimore. So that lets you know that if the owner doesn't want you there, you can be gone. But Mel was fantastic. And Frank, as you mentioned, you know, Frank has the two greatest calls in Washington sports history. Okay? Yeah, fourth and one. The fourth and one, you know, Riggins.

Yeah. And he's gone, he's gone. And that's the greatest football call we have ever had here. And obviously the bullets. First title since. You know, right. and 40-something years or whatever. Right.

So he's got those two calls. I love Frank. He's a great guy. He's down in Carolina, retired and doing what he's doing. But I saw him not long ago when the Bullets, when the Wizards had their 40th anniversary, you would have loved this, Kevin.

It was up at Mastro's restaurant. And everybody came back. All the players that were still alive, Dick Mata, all the coaches, Elvin Hayes, everybody was there. Frank was there. and they had me emcee the thing and it was a blast. It was just the best.

I bet. That must have been incredible. Yeah, the the call that he had when the bullets won game seven in Seattle, and I want to say that the previous title would have been Washington's NFL title in 42 or 45,

whatever. For the first time, and I forget what the number of years is, that's what I'm like, for the 30 years or something. For the first time in 30-something years, Washington has, you know, know, a world champion. Yep. And, you know, you see Elvin Hayes actually on the bench, like doing a two-step coming

up the bench because he had fouled out of the game in game seven. You know, it's funny because I get into this argument with real longtime Bullets, you know, Wizards fans like I am and like you are. And you take it back to Baltimore, and I can't do that because I'm not old enough to remember Baltimore. I do remember when they came to D.C., and I was immediately a fan of the Capitol Bullets and beyond. Tommy and I have gotten into this argument many times.

And Tommy says, Wes is number one, period, end of discussion. And I say, look, I don't care what order you put him in. But Elvin Hayes is probably the greatest individual player, the greatest individual player in franchise history. Elvin Hayes, in terms of his standing all time as a power forward, first of all, I think it's criminally low, but it's still very high. I think Elvin Hayes is the number one player in franchise. history. What do you think? Well, if you're if you're talking about, and if you're including scoring,

obviously, and that's a big part of it, you know, because you're with your scoring, you're winning games, you're keeping teams in games, you're winning clutch games at the end. Yeah, then maybe he would have to be considered because he was pretty much unstoppable. West did so many other things, obviously at 6, 7 was able to use his body to rebound and then set jarring screens that used to knock people out. And, and, but he, you know, he had his moments too. He made some big free throws in that game. And so, yeah, I, I just think that Wes is so synonymous with the bullets because he was here

before Elvin. So Wes was, like you said, when I used to go to the Civic Center in Baltimore, I saw him play in 1967 and 68. Oh, and Jack Marin and Kevin Lockery and Gus Johnson. So he's always been, you know, really synonymous with his team when you mentioned. the bullets and that's why I think and I would I would tend to agree with Tommy on that as well but I understand your point about Elvin Hayes he's you know and then but you know now you're going to get people in this generation and say well you know Gilbert Arenas yeah or maybe

yeah well I mean we we're talking about guys that were champions and by the way we're runner-ups many times in the finals elvin Hayes is still in the combined NBA ABA numbers on basketball reference. The Big E is still sixth all time in rebounds, in rebounds, and in points, he is still 11th, I'm sorry, 12th all time. And, you know, and we, and the names in front of him, you know, are Kareem, LeBron, Kobe, Jordan, Chamberlain, you know, Shaq, et cetera, on points, you know, obviously Carl Malone. And on the rebound numbers, total rebounds career, where the, Biggies number six. In front of him are Wilp, Russell, Moses, Kareem, and artist Gilmore. He's in front of guys like Tim Duncan, you know, and Kevin Garnett, and Carl Malone, like Hakeem, Shaq.

Elvin Hayes was also an Iron Man. He rarely even came out of games and he never missed games. And he wouldn't, you know, Phil used to talk about it. You know, Elvin would say pass me the ball and you ain't getting it back. Exactly. Well, I've had many conversations with Phil about Elvin. He was not an easy teammate. That's for sure. There's no doubt that that's what you get from everybody that played with him is that he wasn't an easy team. He had one of the most unusual shots. Even to this day, I'm not sure I've seen anybody else. He used to obviously have his back to the basket and the defender. And he would take a short dribble and then turn and fall away and shoot. And usually it was a bank shot. Yeah, it was phenomenal, man. He was great at that. And when he touched it, the entire arena, and back then people went to the games at Cap Center.

The whole arena would start chanting E when he got the ball. And they would be chanting that through the smoke-filled arena. Exactly. Oh, my God, that's so funny. I was telling this was recently with one of my boys, and I was like, we were talking about smoking and I said, you don't know. Secondhand smoke.

I went to so many indoor sporting events. There's no possible way that I wasn't like massively subjected to secondhand smoke. If you look at some of the highlights of some of these games played in the 70s, indoors, basketball games, there's a haze of smoke. Yeah. The haze would rise like to the three quarters of the way up the arena. And yeah, you could see it. I mean, it was thick. You could see it.

And it was horrifying. Well, I mean, to think about smoking on airplanes, right? Oh, my God. I know. Yeah. Like, you know, they would have for people that don't know this, they would have a smoking section. It was near the back of the plane. And it'd be like the last eight rows of the plane.

And there was a little sign they'd put on the seat. And it would say, you know, non-smoking and throw, I would say smoking behind, whatever. So if you happen to be in the seat right in front of where they were smoking, you were in trouble. You know, you were breathing that shit in, you know. All right. Well, I mean, just, I mean, my home is, I mean, I had parents who were smokers and everybody was a smoker. and just, you know, being in, you know, ashtrays and just remembering sort of that growing up. All right.

One of the, you know, per usual, especially in this format, I mean, you and I could go on for hours. But I do want to ask you, you know, with this big television deal that was signed recently in the NFL, and it's just ridiculous money. And, you know, it goes through 2033. I think the NFL has an out seven years into it, whatever. You start thinking about, you know, how long are guys like Nance and Michaels and Buck? and now Steve Levy's been doing money. Who do you really like in terms of the established guys?

Who do you like in terms of some of the younger guys that are up and coming? Who do you really like? Because you're a play-by-play aficionado because you are one. But who over the years do you really like? Well, you know, I have, I think I may have a little different criteria than other than the average listener because of what I do. And I have my own, you know, quirks and nuances and things like that. I've never liked guys that are, that come across as enamored with their own voice. Okay.

And I'm not going to sit here and name names, but there are certain guys that just are so enamored with their own voice that I lose concentration on following the game because I'm listening to them who are listening to themselves call the game. then there are guys that I love who don't do that, who just call the game. They have their own personalities. I mean, I give you a perfect example. I love Iron Eagle who does the Nets broadcast. And plus he does CBS and he does a million things. He's very, very good because A, he's not enamored with his own voice.

He has a good voice and he just calls the game. He knows when to be excited. He's got a really good sense of humor if you're listening to him. And if you know him personally like I do, he's hysterical. And he's just very, very good at what he does. He doesn't get in the way of the broadcast. He's just good at what he does. Obviously, Kevin, I've always thought, you know,

the number one play-by-play guy in my book, and who's still working now is Al Michaels. You know, he's the most prepared guy I've ever heard. He weaves information into and stories into a game like nobody I've ever heard. He knows the games backwards and forwards, and he knows the rules and everything else, so that when something happens, even if the color guy's not up on it, he can explain it to everybody, which he does. I'm trying to think of guys now.

I sort of, I've been a massive Al Michaels fan for years and years. He's starting to lose it a little bit. Yes, he is. He is. hear that in people okay yeah and and i and i say this you know with all due respect because he's he's the best that what he does now mike terrico is going to take over his job and that's he's being groomed for that right now and tarrico is is fabulous obviously um so you can hear that in guys if you listen to them okay pat summer all was a great example you could tell later on he was beginning to lose it

um even madden uh jack buck was a real good example of that. You could tell, you know, he was getting, it was, it was starting to go. So when guys are starting to go, you can hear it in their voice, if you listen carefully. Sometimes you don't have to listen carefully. I know Dick Stockton just retired. And look, I was a big Dick Stockton fan. And the first NFL game I did for Fox, which was the Redskins at Tampa Bay in in 1994, I called him on the phone the day or maybe the night before the game. And I just said, Dick, do you have any advice you can give me? And he did.

He spoke to me, and I'd known him through meetings and stuff like that, but I didn't know him that well. But he was, and he'd done a lot of our Redskinned preseason stuff, you know, with Ernie Bauer and Riggins and the guys. Dick was involved with that kind of stuff. So I did know him. And he was very nice, and he told me what he thought. It gave me the advice I needed.

And I always thought he was a really, really good. Now, he's taking his hard knocks from people because they think he makes mistakes and whatever. But yeah, you know what? As you get older, everybody makes mistakes. Everybody starts to make them. And that's when you can begin to see the falling apart of a guy or the demise or whatever you want to call it. As a guy gets older, you can hear it in their voice and you can hear it when they start to make mistakes.

Yeah. And that happens, unfortunately. And that's when the new guys come along, like Toreko, who's brilliant and some of these other guys who are really good at what they do. Yeah, I want to – because I'm a big Iron Eagle fan too. I like Kevin Burkart a lot, too. I think he's very good on Fox. I was always the biggest Al Michaels fan, and I think in the last couple of years,

the thing about Al Michaels, which always made him great, was he really did know the game. There have been a lot of play-by-play guys that are totally deferential when it comes to, you know, the explanation of the game or whatever. Tariko's really good, sometimes better than the analyst, at, you know, game situation, clock management, all that stuff. Tariko is probably the best at it.

And Michaels was great at that for a long time, too. Summerall never cared about that. You know, I've said this to you before, and I think you let the action breathe in similar fashion to the way Summerall did it. I think Somerall is the all-time greatest at, you know, calling a game with the fewest amount of work. words and letting the action breathe. That's different than Michaels. That's different than Toreko, the style. By the way, did you, I mean, because I know you loved Summerall too. There were many nights

when you and Phil called games where there was, you know, potentially, and I don't even know what the time amount would be, but I'll just say 30 seconds of action could go by without you saying anything and without the need for you saying anything. Right. And sometimes, Kevin, it was because I was so in at their play on the court and so mad. Right. At an official. At home. I just, I couldn't, I got so mad I would stop talking. Yeah. And sometimes I'd let 30 or 45 seconds go by and then they call a timeout and I'd say,

you know, Wizard taking time out or whatever. And maybe to my detriment, you know, I'm sure the owners probably didn't like that. But I just, you know, I felt like I was a fan because I was a fan. I am a fan. I've been watching the team since 1967. Yeah. So I'm the biggest Bullets fan there is. And as I'm calling these games, I am a fan. Now I'm able to separate myself as a play-by-play guy, but I'm still a fan and I'm rooting for the team.

And when they play badly, I'm mad. And that's when I would sometimes shut up or whatever. But yes, there is a talent, I think, a skill to knowing when to let it breathe, knowing how to build to a crescendo. You know, you don't go crazy in the first five. five minutes of the game. You know, the game is like a, like a beautiful concert that has a tremendous crescendo at the end and a beautiful finish. And so that's what I would like to build to doing the play by play. And I thought it was kind of easy to do because that's the way the game worked,

you know, it was much more dramatic at the end than it was at the beginning. So that's why I would do that with Phil. And Phil was that way too. You know, Summerall was a very, I don't say a soft-spoken guy but like you say he didn't use a lot of words but what he did the words he did use were so impactful and his voice yeah the voice which is so perfect for all it for that era anyway maybe in this area it's a little different but back then you didn't need a lot you just needed you know you know Montana rice touchdown 49 you didn't you didn't need a lot you know and it was impactful and it was to this day it's you're wonderful to listen to you know what you were just talking about I think is one of the reasons I'm just not a Kevin Harlan fan.

And I know there are a lot of Kevin Harlan fans out there. To me, every single call, it can be three minutes into the game or it can be three minutes left in the game. It sounds like it's the most dramatic part of the game. And I just think it's way over the top for me. And I think he does a good job like, you know, understanding the game and, you know, not missing, you know, down, distance, score, all that stuff. But it's, he's just way over the top, start to finish for me.

And you know, and I got to meet him when I went out to Fox, obviously, because when I went out there to do my interview for the NFL on Fox, which was in 1994, I mean, this was amazing. You know, I get out there, and these are the guys that I'm in a room with that have been called out there to do their audition games for Fox. Joe Buck, Kenny Albert, Tom Brennaman, Kevin Harlan, a guy named Craig Boland Jack who does the jazz at me.

Okay, so here I am with the sons of these famous people. Right. You know, Kenny Albert is Marv Albert's son. Tom Brennan is Marty Brennan's son, obviously Joe Buck, Jack Buck's son, Kevin Harlan's father was the general manager of the Green Bay Packers.

You know, all of these, you know, when I got home, my father said to me, you know, I apologize for being in the building business, you know. It turned out pretty well, though, for your pop. Yeah, it did. It did. That did. And it turned out well for me. I was able to do a game that year, that Redskin game.

And then I did two games subsequent in the next seasons. But, but yeah, that's, and those guys are all still working. You know, they're all still, you know, I mean, some of them are like, like Kevin Arlenin and Joe Buck and Kenny Albert, they're all. Brenneman obviously cut his own throat, but they're all working. And so that was a great experience for me. And, you know, I just, I think that those guys are all good. Obviously, Gus Johnson, you know, was my intern first and then came back to work for me at Channel 5 to do weekends.

And he has had a meteoric rise to start him. And he's great at what he does. And people love him. So there are a lot of young play-by-play guys. and he's not even so young anymore, but he's still young. And he's great at what he does. And his career has been fabulous. So I really am proud of that.

And obviously, Van Pelt, you know, you can, I mean, proud of what he's done. And he, you know, you and he are great friends and we're all good friends. And he learned, you know, in our little group at Channel 5. And he took it to another level. Yeah. Why hasn't, I want to wrap this up because we, we, we, We've been going for so long. I want people to be able to consume this easily,

and sometimes when it goes on and on and on, it's hard. So why hasn't Monday night football been able to figure it out? I mean, one of the prize products in all of sports, you know, why have they not been able to figure out their booth? That's a great question. Because they have great college football. They have great college football people at ESPN. Yeah.

And people, you know, have to. remember that Al Michaels and Chris Collinsworth don't do Monday night football anymore. They do Sunday night football. They did Monday night for years. Yeah. Well, it's been a while now. They've been on Sunday night football for quite some time now, Buck. Yeah.

But when I think of Monday night football, I think of those guys. And then obviously you think of, you know, Madden and whatever. But I don't know why. You know, I think you just, you have to at some point, look, they're going to, if Tariko's doing that, then they'll be fine, obviously. And so who... Well, Tariko is going to be doing Sunday night football on NBC.

I'm talking about the Monday night product. I understand. I understand. Yeah, I don't know why they haven't hit on a guy that everybody likes yet. I think it's just a matter of trial and error with that job. You know, they've had so many, you know, they obviously tried Tony in there at some

point. They had Dennis... Miller. Miller, you know, trying to get comedy in there and all that stuff, but I think at some point they'll hopefully they'll hit on just a play-by-play guy that is accepted by everybody. That's the problem. You get guys that sometimes, and it's difficult for these play-by-play guys, because they all have their own style and their own opinion, and not everybody likes it. It's difficult to get an Al Michaels who very few people can find fault with, same with Mike Tariko. So you have trial and error, they have to find that guy that is neutral to the

point where everybody sort of accepts him and enjoys and likes him. Mike, it's some guys that people are like, you know, get this guy out of here or who is he think he is or whatever. It's a tough call for the network executives to find that person. On the basketball side, you love Mike Breen, right? Yeah, Mike is great. First of all, he and I are very good friends. We play golf in the summer.

But let me just say this. you know, there's obviously 29 other guys or 30 guys in the NBA that do that TV play-by-play job. And of course, he does it not only for the Knicks, but he does it on the network level. But a lot, and I'm friendly with just about every one of those guys, you know, it's a long time that we've known each other.

And he is just as good a person as you can imagine because he genuinely cares for the people that he considers to be in his circle of friends. And there's a lot of them, a lot of them play-by-play guys like me. So, you know, we would talk every summer about other guys and he would tell me how he tried to help this guy who maybe lost his job or whatever. When I, when the word came down on me and it went public when I was in Charlotte to do a game against, you know, the Hornets. Yeah.

Called me that night at a restaurant. I was at a restaurant with a friend of mine and he called me that night to tell me, you know, that he had heard. And we, talked for 20 minutes and he just let me know that he would do whatever he could do, would do or needed to do. He actually called the guy at Comcast SportsNet that's purportedly made the decision and talked to him on my behalf. I mean, who would do things like that? Right. So he is, he is genuinely a great guy and I think he's an excellent broadcaster. You know, he doesn't get in the way of the game. He's not enamored with his own voice. He's got a signature call, obviously bang. And he just, and he knows the game. He knows the rules. He knows the game. He knows how to

weave in stories. So he is a true, what I consider to be a true professional broadcaster. You know, Johnny Holliday is the same way in many regards. You know, he is just such a professional and his voice is so good. And he's just, you love the guy. So Mike Green, yes, is that way. And there's a lot of guys around the league, Kevin and the NBA. Like I said, who I, you know, Bob Rathman, I think is excellent Eric Reed, Miami. I, you know, I could go, I could name 30 TV guys and 30 radio guys who I'm friendly with, and most of them, I think, are really, really good at what they do. Mike Gorman up in Boston, his legendary, he's been there forever,

marks them off in Philadelphia, my counterpart in Comcast Sportsnet, or whatever you want to call it, NBC Sports, Washington. These guys have been around forever, and they're all really, really good at what they do, and that's why I was a little bit taken aback when they came and told me they were replacing me because it would be like somebody, their counterpart, going up to Mike Gorman in Boston saying, you know what, you've been here for 35, 40 years. I think it's time we made a change. He would look at them and say, get out of here, dude.

That's not happening. So that's the way that is. But they're all great. We could go on and on and on on this. I appreciate the time. I can't wait to listen to this again, Kevin, because it was. so much fun. Well, at least you don't have to wait three hours for groceries.

You know, the plane crash talk is one thing. Really, what Buck's been very useful for over the years is restaurant recommendations in any city in America. This is the God's honest truth. Whatever city, major city, okay, we're not talking about Topeka. But if you're in a major city, Buck will give you two to three solid restaurant recommendations. you've never once steered me wrong. Well, we should do this again sometime and just have that conversation.

Do you think people would enjoy those? Yeah, I think if we just went down, we took the top 25 cities in America by population. And, you know, Cooley always wants to just basically quiz me on supermarkets per city. Like, because I can name every single major supermarket chain and even some smaller supermarkets in every,

city in America, and you can do restaurant recommendations. So I'll do supermarket recommendations one day and you'll do restaurant recommendations. Also, I could do hotels, as you know. Yes, yeah, but only those with five stars in front of them. No holiday in Express. I can thank the NBA collective bargaining agreement for that. The players can't stay anywhere in less than a four-star hotel. I can just tell you that, you know, unfortunately for Buck, Carlisle, Pennsylvania, did not have many luxury resort hotels. And wherever we stayed, Buck, we'd all get our keys in the lobby, and Buck would say, stop. And all of us, it would be Paul Farnsworth, Joe Yashoreff, Larry Duvall, me, you. And you'd walk down the hall and you'd stop at each one of our rooms.

And you'd go in and you'd survey the room and you'd say, wait a minute. and then you'd go to Yashiroff's room, and we weren't allowed to enter said rooms until you saw your room and it compared it to the rest of them. And then you picked which one you'd be staying in. People will listen to this and think, you know, that guys, high maintenance. You know, high maintenance, cremadan, and whatever. But you have to look at this in a seniority respect. And it was fun. It was funny, too. It was part, you know. You guys were young producers, interns in some cases. And I'm a guy that had been in the business for 30 years. I deserved to be able to at least have the nicest accommodating.

You did. You know, the ice cream cone sharing got a little bit much, though, on some of those nights. What was the name of the place next to the practice field in Carlisle? Yes, in Carlisle, the great ice cream place. Huh? I'm blanking on it. I'm going to have to look it up. Damn it.

I know. All right. Thanks. Be well. All right. Thanks, Kevin. Steve Buckhance, everybody. Dagger.

That was fun. My Smell Test picks for today right after this word from one of our sponsors. Kevin looks where the John Q Public is putting their cash and does the opposite. It's time for the smell test. All right, the smell test today brought to you by MyBooky at mybooky.orgie. They're giving away up to $1,000 if you use my promo code, Kevin DC. Even if you've got another spot, go sign up at MyBooky at myBooky.orgie. use my promo code Kevin DC.

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had a bunch of favorites last week. I hate taking favorites, but, you know, I sort of equate it to, you know, you got to hit 16 against a 10. Sorry, the book says you got to do it, or you'll lose more often than you won't. And my formula is going against the public with, you know, sort of information about where sharp money is with a bunch of offshore places in particular. And there are two more favorites I'm going to give you today. I don't love favorites. I like underdogs primarily.

but Arkansas is laying a big number, 11 and a half against O'Rowberts, and the public loves O'Rall Roberts, the 15 seed getting 11 and a half. They were getting 9 and they beat Florida outright. They were getting 15. They beat Ohio State outright in the first game, and they view 11 and a half to be too many. I'll take Arkansas and I'll lay the 11 and a half. And then, my God, does it seem like everybody and their brother and sister, mother and father, think that Syracuse is going to knock off Houston. Houston's laying six and a half. That's up from an opening number of six. Houston should not be in this draw. They shouldn't be. And oh, the dreaded two-three zone. Well, they've had more time to prepare for it than you typically have. You know, they played on Monday. The game's on Saturday. They're laying six and a half. The public is all over Syracuse as an underdog thinking Buddy Beheim and everybody else, they're going to bomb Houston out of the gym. I'll take Houston.

and lay the six and a half. So there are the two selections today, two favorites. Arkansas minus 11 and a half, Houston minus six and a half. I will tweet my picks out tomorrow at Kevin Shee and DC on Twitter. Don't forget to subscribe if you haven't before. It doesn't cost you anything. It helps us. Rate us and review us as well if you've got time and you haven't done that before. We'd appreciate it. Thanks to Steve Buchance back on Monday. Have a great rest of the weekend. Enjoy the hoops.