The Kevin Sheehan Show - Dan Vs. Other Owners

Episode Date: August 14, 2020

The show today includes the WSJ story on Snyder and his minority owners. Lots on the Skins with Ben Standig/The Athletic. Some Ron Rivera from my Team 980 interview this morning. Plenty on the Caps with Greg Wyshynski/ESPN and more. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

All right, shows coming up here in a minute. Ben Standig's going to be on the show today. Greg Wyshinsky, the ESPN NHL senior writer, will be on the show as well. We'll talk some Caps Islanders with him and a lot more. Greg's always one of my favorite guests. So that will be a little bit later on in the show. Just to start off, a reminder that Wind Donation is offering 50% off all styles of windows right now, and they're going to defer payments for two years with no interest.

You don't have to put any money down. You don't have to pay anything, and you're not going to get interest for two full years. If you've been thinking about new windows, I promise you, you can't go wrong with Window Nation. All of us have had great experiences with Wind Donation over the years. Free estimate, so you've got no risk. They'll do a virtual online estimate if you want that. If you allow them into your home to give you the free estimate, they will follow all CDC guidelines. Nation or windownation.com and please tell them that I sent you.

You want it. You need it. It's what everyone's talking about. The Kevin Sheehan Show. Now here's Kevin. All right, a lot to get to today before we get Ben standing on the show. And then after that, Greg Wyshinsky will be on the show. This Wall Street Journal story from yesterday, you know, a lot of people think that it's a lot of the stuff we've already heard with respect to the minority owners. no, there's more to this particular story. So I'm going to get to that momentarily. I had Ron Rivera today on the radio show. We're going to play a couple of those cuts and comment on them. And I wanted to mention something that Terry McLaurin said in his Zoom conference call yesterday about Scott Turner's offense in particular that I thought was interesting. So we'll get to all of that coming up.

Islanders tonight, game two. You know, there's no home ice advantage. The caps have lost two before in their Stanley Cup run. They lost the first two to Columbus at home, actually, ended up winning that series. A lot of people have gone back to the 2017-2018 Stanley Cup season. You know, they lost the first two to Columbus. They lost game one to Pittsburgh. They were down three, two to Tampa. They were down one-nothing against Vegas in the finals. So they've been in this position before. And rallied. The bad news is no Nick Baxter tonight in game two. And Anders Lee, as of now, was not disciplined for the hit on Baxter. I didn't think he should be. I don't really know hockey. We'll ask Greg Wischinski about that later on. Gambling-wise, they're a slight minus

115 favorite tonight. The caps are. I think they're expecting Braden Holtby to really turn it around after a subpar performance. The Nats lost again, but Juan Soto went deep yesterday. They've got that series with Baltimore this weekend. How about the Orioles? I mean, what a surprise. At 10 and 7, they've won five in a row. And really, they're on the verge of winning six in a row because they've got that five to two lead in the suspended game against the Nats from last Sunday, which they will complete tonight before the three-game set with the Nats. So if they win that, they've actually got a six-game winning streak heading into the series with the Nationals. It's been impressive with the Orioles, not so much with the Nats. They get Strasbourg

back tonight, and I don't know if you guys caught this last night, but Stephen Strasbourg was thrown out of the stadium in the game yesterday at City Field in New York. He was sitting in the lower level watching the game in Section 121, socially distanced from anybody else. He was not happy with the strike zone that umpire Carlos Torres had for Austin Voth, who was pitching. And on a two-two pitch that hit the outside corner that Carlos Torres called as a ball, Strasbourg went off. And with no fans in the stands, Torres heard it all. Strasbourg screamed, you're with an expletive brutal. And he got tossed. Torres turned around, saw it with Strasbourg, and tossed him out of the park.

Dave Jim Martinez said, I thought the umpire threw me out of the game, so I was kind of heated up. It was Strauss who got thrown out as a fan. He goes, I love Steve, and I can't tell you what he said, but I love him. Man, you know, with Strasbourg, what's so interesting about him, Stephen Strasbourg in the biggest moments here over the last several years has come up the biggest. He's been a clutch performer, an incredible clutch performer. I mean, certainly, you know, no better clutch performance. than the one that we saw in game six of the World Series. I mean, facing elimination, down three games to two, having lost three in a row at home, there was sort of the expectation, even with Strasbourg and Scher, you know, scheduled for games six and seven, that Houston was back home.

They had all the momentum. They were, you know, going to close the gnats out in game six. And Strasbourg puts together an all-time gems. Similar to what he did, you know, at, Rigley against the Cubs a few years ago in the postseason in that game that he nearly didn't pitch because he wasn't feeling well. And then he came through and that seemed to be almost, you know, a career-defining win for him and maybe a career-changing win for him in terms of the perception of him as a clutch pitcher. But remember, game six last year didn't start well. He was

tipping his pitches. Paul Menhart came out, you know, and let him know what he was doing. And and he allowed two runs on two hits in the first, and then it was lights out. He takes it all the way into the ninth inning, allowing basically nothing over the final seven in two-thirds or whatever it was. He was in pressure spots. I remember a two-on, two-out jam. You know, he's got Carlos Correa up, and he strikes him out, strikes Altuvae out in a big spot, gets Michael Brantley out in a big spot. It was one of the great performances and clutch

performances we've ever seen. And it's just interesting about Strasbourg, about how his whole persona, the whole narrative on him has changed. You know, he was considered to be delicate, as Tony always referred to him, as an orchid. And yet, you know, in the postseason last year, he became the first pitcher to ever go 5 and 0 in one postseason, and he had a 1.98 ERA in October last year. I mean, incredible. Remember, it started with a relief appearance as well. So clutch performer, really, I think much more of an intense competitor than most people have given him credit for over the years. And he got tossed from a game that he wasn't even pitching in. the way, I'm just looking at something on Strasbourg, that his, you know, playoff ERA, second all time to Sandy

Kofax. That's amazing. Like Steven Strasbourg, you can mention his name in the same breath with Sandy Kofax. And last year's Game 6, you know, World Series performance on the road was unbelievable. Anyway, I wanted to mention one other thing, too, before we get to a couple of things that Ron Rivera said and the Wall Street Journal story and a couple of things from Terry McLoran. Last night or yesterday afternoon, the San Antonio Spurs were eliminated from the postseason. The Spurs consecutive playoff season streak came to an end. 22 consecutive seasons they made the playoffs. It's tied for the longest streak in NBA history and it came to an end yesterday. I mean it's going to be a postseason and I know it's a weird

postseason because it's going to take place in August and September, maybe even into early October, but no San Antonio since the 96-97 season. That's how long it's been since we've had the Spurs out of the playoffs. What an incredible run when you think about it. One of the great all-time team sports runs in history. Since 1997, Greg Popovich's Spurs, have won five titles, been in the NBA finals six times, made the postseason 22 consecutive years. He's been a three-time coach of the year. They've had 18 seasons, and it was 18 consecutive seasons, with 50 plus wins. The overall winning percentage during the last 22 years is 690. It's just one of the great sports team runs of all time. They've had great players,

Hall of Fame players, but they've really been the embodiment of team because they haven't always had the best player in the league or even, you know, the best collection of talent in the league. But they have been for a long period of time in many of those years the best team, the smartest team, the classiest team in the league. An incredible run. I mean, something to acknowledge. 22 consecutive years of playoffs comes to an end with the San Antonio Spurs. I saw something on Twitter yesterday that the last time the Spurs didn't make the playoffs,

and this will sort of put it in perspective. 1997, Michael Jordan, Tim Hardaway, Grant Hill, Carl Malone, and Hakeem Elijah won, was your NBA all-first team group. Jordan, Elijah, Juan, Carl Malone, Tim Hardaway, and Grant Hill. I mean, it feels like those guys haven't played in decades. Well, it's true, actually. But that was the last time the Spurs weren't relevant. You know, it's interesting about that franchise, an ABA franchise,

that was part of the NBA merger in 1976 when they first came. came into the NBA, they were an Eastern Conference team. And they competed with the Washington Bullets in two memorable playoff series, both of which the Bullets won. They played the Spurs in the second round in the conference semifinals in the 78 playoffs, the year that the Bullets went on to win the title. And then in 79, in an all-time series in the Eastern Conference finals, the bullets came from 3-1 down to beat the Spurs in seven games. The seventh and deciding game played at the Capitol Center in one of the more raucous environments that an NBA team has ever had in this town.

And Bobby Dandritch hit a baseline 16-footer to win it for them in overtime. That advanced the bullets to the NBA finals for the second consecutive year against Seattle. It was that year that they lost to Seattle. But the bullets in the Spurs had some. going there. And then the Spurs moved to the Western Conference where with Artists Gilmore and George Gervin and Silas and, you know, the Larry Keenan and some of the other players, Billy Paltz, and then a couple of the other players that came along a little bit later, they had a big run. They never made it to the NBA finals with those Gervin teams, but they were in the Western

Conference finals a couple of times against the Lakers. And they had made it to the Eastern Conference finals against the bullets in 79. If you talk to a San Antonio Spur fan, a long-time fan that remembers those years, they say one of the worst losses in history was that loss to the bullets. They felt like they were the better team. They felt like the referee took it away from them late in the game. There's a famous incident in that seventh and deciding game. The bullets were down 10 points in the fourth quarter and the lights in the Capitol Center went out. It took, it delayed the game. And then when the lights came back gone. The Spurs had lost all their mojo. Doug Moe was the coach. A lot of Spurs, writers, and fans still think that they were screwed out of that Eastern Conference finals game seven. And George

Gervin, one of the all-time great players, the Iceman, never made it to an NBA finals. He was close, and that was probably the closest he got. They had some very competitive series with the Lakers when they were in the West, but he never got to the NBA finals with teams that were really good. There was a stretch there where the Spurs struggled, and then came David Robinson and Tim Duncan and the 22-year run of being one of the winningest and most successful franchises in all of sport. All right, a quick word from Indochino. Then we're going to get to this Wall Street Journal story and more. All right, let's get to this Wall Street Journal story.

We'll touch on something Terry McLoran said as well, and you'll hear a couple of the Ron Rivera Bites from my interview with him earlier this morning. But I want to get to this journal story that dropped yesterday afternoon titled Minority Owners Pressure Dan Snyder to Sell Washington's NFL team. The minority partners, the story reads, of Washington's NFL team are pressuring Dan Snyder to sell the franchise. This, according to people familiar with the matter, amid a growing fight inside a team facing controversy on multiple fronts. Mr. Snyder, the team's 55-year-old billionaire owner, has no intention to sell his majority stake in the team. A recent legal filing by Mr. Snyder suggests that at least one of the minority partners has attempted to leak defamatory information against him. I'll get into the rest of the story, but I'll stop there because there are a couple of things about this story that you learn,

the first of which is they do want him to sell and that he's got no intention. of selling. Now, some people will say, well, that's not really an update. It's not necessarily an update to what we heard a few months ago, but it is an indication that they want him to sell with them. This was not necessarily the story three months ago. It was just that they were selling their minority shares. They want him to sell his shares, too. I'll get into the reasons why in a moment. Now, this reference to Dwight Schar, one of the minority partners who's attempted to leak defamatory information against him, is what we've been talking about here periodically during the week. It goes back to that motion for discovery filed in a court in Virginia by Dan and his attorney against a Mary Ellen Blair, who was an executive assistant to Snyder for upwards of four years with the Redskins, accusing her. her of being funded by somebody to spread false rumors about Snyder.

You know, those were the rumors with him tied to Jeffrey Epstein, tied to sex trafficking, tied to bribing NFL referees, et cetera. Now, they are going after here, as we've talked about all week long, in an incredible twist to this story. They believe that this Mary Ellen Blair was underwritten by potentially one of the minority partners, Dwight Schar, which is amazing. Let me read from the story. Continuing, the team's minority owners, FedEx Corporation CEO Fred Smith, Black Diamond Capital Chairman Robert Rothman, and NVR Incorporated board chairman Dwight Schar own approximately 40% of the team. They've hired

an investment firm to sell their interest in the franchise formerly known as the Redskins. Those same stakes would become more valuable if the entire team, which would likely be worth several billion dollars were to be sold. So what's the journal story lays out, and even in more detail throughout the rest of the story, is that with Dan Snyder in the organization, the minority shares aren't worth market value or what they believe to be market value. Now, again, part of that may be that typically when you buy a minority interest in something, you want a path towards majority ownership. Now, that isn't necessarily the case in the

NFL. The opportunity to buy in and even be a minority owner in an NFL team is very rare. And people will take that opportunity even without an obvious path to majority ownership. Now, the journal writes about this saying that sales of minority stakes typically come in a significant discount if they don't provide a path to ultimate control of the team, which is what I just said. If the team were to go up for sale, the limited partners or whoever purchases them would have a right of first refusal, one of the people said. So it then gets into basically that these minority owners can't find people interested in the team and it spells it out as A, because Snyder's involved in it, and B, because they don't have a path to taking Snyder out.

And that's the new portion of this story. There is the fact that they are pressuring him to sell now, just not trying to sell on their own, which they have used, and they're using an investment bank to try to sell their shares. But the learning that their shares aren't worth market value, because he's still in the organization. He doesn't want to. to sell and he doesn't want to give anybody the path to majority ownership. Now, a lot of this has to do with him. They want out because they don't want to have, they don't want anything to do with him. And it's probably one of the reasons that the market for minority owner prospects is limited as well, because they'll buy in, but only if they've got a path to majority ownership,

they don't want to work in his organization either. The, uh, the, issues, the journal writes, then we get to the more recent stuff with Schar and the misinformation campaign. The tensions between the parties have grown more severe in recent weeks, the journal article again. While the minority partners privately look to push Mr. Snyder into selling, a lawsuit filed by Mr. Snyder suggests that one of the minority partners is behind a plot to leak defamatory information about him. In Monday, in a Monday filing and federal district court in Alexandria, Virginia, Mr. Snyder requested access to documents from a former executive assistant for the team, Mary Ellen Blair. As part of a defamation case, he filed

in India against an Indian media company, MEEA worldwide, which Mr. Snyder says libeled him in July articles that have since been taken down. The filing refers to an unnamed financial benefactor that aided Miss Blair and says she had been seeking to spread damaging information about Mr. Snyder. Now, we've talked about this, but the story writes about it. Without naming any of the limited partners directly, the filing strongly implies that one of the limited partners could be involved in the effort to defame Mr. Snyder. Mr. Schar's daughter, Tracy, is on the board of Comstock, the real estate

company that owns the building where Miss Blair lives, and Mr. Snyder's filing says Ms. Blair has lived above her means at the property. The filing petitions discovery from Comstock to shed light on Blair's motive for seeking to defame Snyder and the nature of her ties to other participants in the same scheme. This is all unbelievable. If true, if true. So, this story indicates one, that the minority owners not only want to sell, but now they want Dan to sell as well. Why? Because they can't find anybody to give them market value for their shares, for their equity position with Dan still there and without a path to majority ownership. Now, if Dan were a normal owner, they would probably be able to find people to buy their

minority shares to become a part of an NFL team as even a minority owner. It's that sexy to be a minority NFL owner. It's not your typical business where you're buying in to eventually control it and run it. I'm sure a lot of the prospects would love to control it and run it and own it and be the decision maker, but that isn't necessarily the way it works. David Tepper bought in as a minority owner in the Carolina Panthers, ultimately, he's he became the owner, but when he bought in as a minority owner, there wasn't necessarily a path the majority ownership. That happened when Jerry Richardson was forced out because of the harassment allegations. So they want him to sell. They're having trouble selling their shares at market

value, which is why they want him to sell, because if he does sell, this thing will be worth a ton of money. And that's where I just want to make a few comments about. this story. The Washington football franchise, don't mistake this, is worth much more without Dan Snyder in it than with him in it. And that's what the minority owners really understand. That's what the market understands. Remember that this area, the demographics of this market, the nature of this market from a corporate revenue standpoint with, you know, the federal government and all the companies that call on the federal government and the defense industry and all the companies that call on the Pentagon. They seem to be recession-proof, always have been. That creates

huge corporate revenue, corporate sponsorship opportunity that's consistent in this market, the military aspect of this market. The possibility of a new stadium down the road is an attractive possibility, a fan base that could be revived if Snyder is gone. Future television contracts that are coming up with the NFL. The legalization of sports betting, all of this leads to this is a very valuable franchise. It's a very valuable franchise. If Snyder were to sell this team in conjunction with his minority owners, it would be worth the largest amount ever paid for a franchise in North America. I'm not saying that the Cowboys wouldn't sell for more. I'm just saying if they were the next team to sell, it would be the largest sale if Snyder was out in the history of sports in North America.

Let's face it, and I talked about this this morning on the radio show. This owner has alienated this fan base, like few other owners have in the history of sports. You know, in the fan base, we all know this, that he alienated, is one of the most passionate, was one of the most passionate in sports when he purchased the team in 1999. No exaggeration. This fan base at one point, at one point, was one of the most fervid and intense in sports. And yet it has eroded over two decades. And the erosion and the acceleration of that erosion over the last few years is remarkable. It is really hard to consider how much he has sucked the passion and the fanaticism out of a large group. of diehards who were, you know, totally invested in this franchise. If you had told anyone in 1999 that the Washington Redskins would become one of the worst franchises in sports, with much

of the fan base becoming completely disinterested in the team, you would have been checked in to a mental institution, but it happened. We all witnessed it. With that said, though, the team is still an incredible opportunity if it can be purchased without him in it. The Wall Street Journal's story indicates the minority ownership is having issues trying to convince interested parties in buying with Snyder remaining in control. And they can't get Snyder to sell. He doesn't want to sell. And the discovery motion in court reflects that Snyder is really angry with Dwight Schar, more likely than not, one of the limited partners. so that may have him digging his heels in even further.

Additionally, the post story from a few weeks ago didn't implicate Snyder. You know, remember, you've got to get three-fourths of a vote of the other owners to force somebody out. That story as a standalone didn't implicate him directly. It certainly implicated him as the leader of an organization that had a toxic culture. We all understand that. But it's not enough for Roger Goodell to go to the... the other 31 owners and say, hey, let's vote them out, even though they don't like them and they're

embarrassed by the situation in D.C. and they want a competent owner here because it's an important city for them. It's an important market for them. Now, I've mentioned this several times, but they blew their opportunity for that post story to have carried more weight. The cheerleading scandal story reported by the New York Times in 2018, the league should have come down hard on the team. They should have punished the team. They should have fined the team, taken a draft choice away from the team, and warned the owner, don't embarrass us again. We've had it with you. One more of these things, and you are in deep trouble.

And that way, the post story, if it was put together in aggregate with, you. the cheerleading scandal could have led to Goodell asking for a vote from the other 31 owners to get three-fourths of the vote to force them out. But they didn't do anything with the cheerleading scandal. They did nothing. So now it's like who knows. I mean, Beth Wilkinson is investigating, you know, after the post story, maybe it will unearth more negatives, who knows, maybe there's more coming, you know, on this stuff. But right, right. now, it would appear that his heels are dug in a little bit, maybe, and they still don't have enough on them to force him to sell. And these three minority owners, I don't know what their

end game is in all of this, because if they really did, if Dwight Schar really is behind the internet rumors and the misinformation campaign on Snyder that led up to the post story, I mean, not helping the value of the franchise with that, is he? Or is maybe the point to try to get, the other 31 owners to say, all right, enough of this guy, let's get him out. It is a fascinating story and a story that I know many of you don't, you know, necessarily put side by side with games in the roster and the football decisions. But this is the owner. And this is the owner in a squabble with his minority owners with maybe perhaps the prospect of it leading to an eventual sale.

Who knows? All right, anyway, I want to get to Ron Rivera here real quickly. He joined me on radio this morning. You can hear the whole interview at the team 980.com or you can download the Team 980 app and listen to the whole interview with Rivera today. But I want to play two cuts for you specifically. The first one I asked him, I said, you know,

tomorrow night, meaning, actually it would have been tomorrow afternoon. Tomorrow afternoon would have been your first preseason game against the Titans

had the NFL kept the preseason schedule based on what you've seen who would have started a quarterback. And he said this. Oh, it would have been Dwayne.

It had been Dwayne. And again, he's in a competition. You know, the next week would have probably been Kyle and we'll go from there. You know, again, we're not giving anything to anybody. Everything's going to be earned. And that's the one thing that we talked about. He knows that's how I feel about it. And he's practicing like it. He is very competitive in

practice. Duane's done an outstanding job. And again, he's got to continue to show that he deserves the opportunity. So the big takeaway for me from that is this. Dwayne Haskins is the starting quarterback. It's his job to lose. He answered Dwayne Haskins too quickly to my question. And then obviously there was a sense of keeping this competition discussion going, which I think he feels is very healthy for Dwayne. But he answered the question very quickly, and then he said, well, and then Kyle Smith would have gotten the start next week. And then as far as the Eagles game, etc. Bottom line is it's Dwayne Haskins' job to lose. I think we knew that already. I'm not trying to say that this was some sort of big reveal. But the encouraging words from him about Dwayne

in recent weeks in various interviews. The fact that if tomorrow were the first preseason game, Dwayne would get the start, it's his job to lose. I don't think there's any other way to look at it. Here was the other cut from Ron Rivera during the interview with me earlier this morning on 980. I asked him about the players that were under the radar that maybe we as fans aren't necessarily expecting to be big contributors. you know, I think I phrased it in, who are your sleepers right now?

Who do you guys really like that would surprise us? Here was his answer. I'll give you a couple. Kevin Pierre-Lewis is a lineback who we signed as a free agent. He's come in and he's been, you know, as advertised in terms of he's showing us how explosive he is. He's showing us, you know, his ability to be in the right place at the right time. I mean, he's been exciting to watch.

Troy Apke, is a young state who's done a couple of really nice things that, that get your attention. You know, when you sit there and you watch him, you know, run around and, you know, and show his athleticism. But he's got a long way to go. Sadiq Charles has been impressive as a young work. He seems to just kind of pick things up and, you know, those things don't seem to bother him, that, you know, that now all of a sudden, he's in a position where, you know, he's got a chance to compete. So that's been, you know, another real positive for us. Let's see, along the, the wide receiver group, I mean, there's been a couple of these young guys that have really stood out that have been impressive to

watch. I think Cam Sims, Stephen Sims, both those guys are really competitive guys, and they've done a nice job. And they catch your attention, you know, both because they have a unique skill set that fits what we want to do. And that's something that's been really cool. And one guy that, you know, with everybody, don't overlook is Montez-Swath. I know we have Chase, and Chase is going to be a dynamic player, but, you know, Montez had a lot of hype last year, and when he came in, and he's been pretty solid. So we've got some real interesting guys, some guys that are a lot of fun to watch. You know, we're in the process of trying to build this, and it is a process, and it's going to

take some time, and we've got a ways to go, and that's the thing that I think, you know, again, as I said before, I just hope everybody understands that, be patient with us, be out there cheering for us, and I get it. You'll boo us once in a while, but just remember, we're your team. They love themselves some Kevin Pierre Lewis, KPL. We have heard now KPL's name mentioned multiple times out of the mouths of Ron Rivera, Jack Del Rio, and others. This seemed to be a throwaway signing in free agency.

This guy's been primarily a special teams player, but his name has been mentioned, and they've mentioned it in brief, you know, as an acronym KPL, you know, like everybody should know who KPL is. this is one of those guys that obviously they like a lot and a name to keep an eye on. And Apke's name's been mentioned before, too. Apke can really run at safety. I liked what he said about Sadiq Charles and Cam Sims and Stephen Sims. And I really liked what he said about Montez Sweat.

Most of you know I was really high on him before the 2019 draft. I think we saw a guy that wasn't totally comfortable all the time last year. in that defensive scheme, but as a 4-3D-end, I think we're going to see a breakout year, potentially, from Montez Sweat. One more thing before we get to Ben Standing. Terry McClureen did a Zoom conference call and was asked about the offense. I'm going to read you this one part of his answer because we've all wondered, okay, well, what's Scott Turner's offense going to be like? I'm guessing it's going to be Norv's offense, but I think we got clarification or or validated, confirmation, if you will, that it is going to be Norves' offense.

Because Terry McClurentz said the following. I feel like when you're on offense, you should be dictating tempo. You should decide when you guys get up to the line, when you're snapping the play, when you're calling audibles, running motions, things like that. I feel like play action on first downs, running on downs you feel like you maybe shouldn't be running on. It's just some things that offensive coordinator Scott Turner does a great thing on. the versatility and unpredictability, and then he goes on and on. Look, Norv Turner, no matter what you thought of him as a head coach here or anywhere else,

he was a very, very high-level offensive coordinator. And the hallmark of Norv was to run it when you thought they were going to throw, when the defense thought you were going to throw it, and to throw it when the defense thought you were going to run it. I can remember countless times, third and seven. Here's a pitch sweep to our third down. back. Maybe Brian Mitchell in some of those games in the 90s. And all of a sudden, against nickel defense or against dime defense, there's plenty of running room and they pick up the seven yards on a

run. Norv was great on throwing first down play action and taking shots, you know, deeper shots. Nobody that watched Norv Turner's teams in the 90s that he coached here could say that he wasn't prepared for that opening drive of the game. He always had teams off balance. He always had teams off Now, was he a great head coach? No. Was he a really good offensive mind and play caller? Absolutely. Norve in every stop, if he had enough talent, and sometimes even when he didn't have great talent, he was able to keep defenses thinking, keep them off balance, keep them wondering what was coming next. And I think that's what Scott's going to be. And if that's the case, I think it's a perfect fit for Dwayne Haskins. I also think it's really important that they get a tight end that can catch the ball.

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Follow Ben on Twitter at Ben Standing. Also, still a very good opportunity as I've been encouraging all of you to subscribe to the athletic. You get a discount right now by signing up, and it's totally worth it as we approach football season in particular. And I think, Ben, a football season right now on August 14th that has a pretty good chance. We know how quickly things have changed in our world, you know, and 30 days might as well be a year. But right now, based on the early COVID-19, you know, results, I think there's a pretty good chance we're certainly going to get this season started on time.

Do you agree? It feels like we're heading in that direction. I mean, there hasn't been the follies we've seen in baseball. Now, granted, well, look, at this point, these teams have been together enough. So it's not like they haven't been, you know, obviously, the Washington hasn't put on pads yet. They only got on helmets Thursday for the first time. But, yeah, I mean, they're around each other. So, yeah, we haven't seen anything.

You know, they've only had one player to go into the protocol situation for COVID. And, yeah, there hasn't been some outbreak on any of these other. teams yet. So, you know, for the moment, it feels like things are headed in a, in a reasonable direction. You know, I've always sort of been in the opinion that they're going to start the finish, you know, interruptions along the way and the finish is the question, but so far, so good. Yeah. So I had Ron Rivera on the show, on the radio show this morning, and I talked a little bit about that in the open of the show before bringing you on. You know, you get a chance to participate in those Zoom conference calls with him a lot.

Do you have any sense about how comfortable he is with everything? I mean, I think you may have asked him the question, you know, a couple of weeks ago about does he have any regrets? But how comfortable do you think he is as we are now a month away from the start of the season about having a team that can compete this year? well you know a lot it's not like a lot of the time he talks he's talking about contending or the playoffs or winning and losing or it's very much grounded in we're starting something new here that it's about the culture and doing things the right way

he's emphasizing you know in terms of training camp he's emphasizing moving you know quicker you know in and out of uh drills and and and things like that like that. So, you know, really does feel like he's focusing on the basics of everything. And obviously, yes, there's some cliche element to that. But my take has been, and maybe this is in part because of the fact that we didn't have all these off-season workouts and he's got a young team and his new staff, but that it really is just about implementing the plan he wants to put in, both in terms of a playbook, but also a mindset, a mentality, what he's going to demand of these guys. So I think he's comfortable in that sense,

on that, I think he probably would admit on some level that there's a lot, there's so many unknowns. I mean, it's almost impossible to point to anything on the offense and feel particularly comfortable with it in terms of the unit. And, you know, defense has obviously, you know, still has questions regardless

of the fact that the defensive lines good. So I think he seems to be somewhat of a realist you know, in terms of, you know, he wants to win, obviously right away, and I'm sure he's hopeful. But I'm getting more of the sense he's focusing on, you know, like I said, putting it, you know, laying down the foundation, what he wants to do more than thinking, if we, you know, if we huffle here, we can make the playoff.

You did a column the other day that I thought was really, it was really good, it was creative to. It was basically mixing Ron Rivera's answers to a lot of different questions and subjects with league sources who would comment, you know, anonymously on the same things, primarily players. Again, I would urge everybody to subscribe to the athletic so you could read this in its entirety. What stood out to you from that column, that story that you wrote two days ago about league source compared to, you know, what Ron had to say about a lot of the players? Yeah, and it was also, you know, we have all these Zoom calls with the assistant coaches and some of the players. And so, you know, it's trying to figure out how to, you know, turn lemons into lemonade on some level

because these Zoom calls, you're really not that exciting for most of us. And certainly it's different when some news outlets, you know, they've got to curing out multiple articles in the day, and it's really just about getting something up quick. And for the athletic, you know, we're trying to be creative, be unique, not be, not put out the same stuff. And when you have the only same material that are sales, it becomes a little more of a challenge.

So this was a way to sort of use this information that we have while simultaneously trying to add more to it. You know, I think, you know, I mean, obviously some of the league source stuff is interesting. I also got to use a little bit more from my Jack Del Rio interview from a couple weeks ago. You know, I thought, you know, I guess specifically, I think the defensive line part was probably the most interesting to me in John Allen and Duran Payne. Because we may have talked about this on the previous time I was on. But it feels like Jonathan Allen between those two is the one who gets more of the attention. and he was the first one here.

He generates more sacks, which tends to be the thing that people gravitate towards. But I think when you talk to people around the league, the real interest, and maybe even with the team to some degree, the real interest is this Duran Payne, which isn't to say that Jonathan Allen is a poor player or that he's underachieved it, not at all, but just that he's totally solid.

He just may lack the upside of some of the other guys out there. And when I talked to Del Rio a couple weeks ago, the question I posed was, whose tape did you enjoy walking the most? As you were getting to learn the players, Duran Payne was the first one he mentioned for reasons that basically he thought that they would be able to get

more out of him than the previous coaching staff did based on the playing. And, you know, the sourcing that I did sort of had essentially had the same vibe that the two-gap playing under Jim Thomas Sula

didn't really give these guys and maybe Payne in particular the opportunity to really use their athleticism, their power to make plays up the field, so to speak. So, you know, I think that contrast is interesting. And it'll be fun to see, you know, does Payne make the leap?

And if he does, it could be a pretty significant one in terms of the league. So, yeah, and by the same token, Alan is going to see so many more one-on-one opportunities now when you have Kate Young and Montess sweat, you know, on the outside. I mean, you know, who's worrying about Jonathan Allen at this point, right? To some degree.

So, you know, this is why this whole line is so fascinating because, some people took it as like sort of a knock on Allen. I don't think that it was. I just think it said, like, he's good. He just may not be great. And there are other other guys going on the line. It could be great. That's what makes it so interesting.

Yeah, I was hoping that that would be part of your answer because if it wasn't, I was going to get to it on Duran Payne. because I've really been enamored with him too, you know, watching him in his first two seasons. I think his upside is just significantly higher than any of their other interior alignment. And I love Alan and I love ionitis. And actually, ionitis is really intriguing too. But pain is just so explosive and physically freakish in so many ways. And, you know, maybe it's part that I'm excited about.

an interior defensive lineman that could dominate potentially. And you talked about the benefit that Alan will have with Young and Sweat. Everybody's going to benefit if you've got two edge rushers that are really explosive quick twitch, you know, and then if you throw pain in the middle and pain develops into, you know, what a lot of people think he can develop into, that's where now you can win games with just one side of the ball. You know, you can all of a sudden have a secondary that may be average talent-wise that all a sudden looks great because your front four, your front seven, maybe if you add some of the

backers with some of the speed that they have, you can really be a factor. You can be a competitive team. I mean, I love Denver, you know, and Chubb and Miller and some of the things they've had. and without a quarterback, they haven't been able to really get over the top. And that, you know, they still need the quarterback. And we know that as NFL fans. But I think the fans haven't understood the last two years what Duran Payne's talent is and how other people around the league see it. He is potentially the most talented interior defensive lineman they've had here in forever.

You know, unless you thought Albert Hainsworth was, you know, gifted, which he was, but It doesn't matter with him after he cut the contract. If Payne loves football and he's committed, he has a chance more than the other two to become a top, you know, three to five player at his position in the league. Yeah, I mean, I think from a potential standpoint that's absolutely true. I think, you know, it's interesting. We have collectively, you know, really praised this defensive line, but not for what they've accomplished, but for what they could accomplish.

And, you know, Chase Young hasn't even taken a snap yet. But that's partly why. And it is fair to note, I think, two things. One, they couldn't stop the run at all last year, despite the fact having these guys. And that's not just on them. Part of the playing with Kamasula was these guys take on the blockers, and then the linebackers and the safety, you know, fill it in and pick up the run. And, you know, I think there's a question for sure about how good their linebackers were last year.

And I think there's still some of those questions this year. Those have some new pieces there, so we'll see. I think that's one. And then the other thing with Payne specifically that the source sort of said was, you know, this new setup is going to be moving a lot more. And he's got to be sure he's in the best,

you know, the best shape possible. And, you know, I think that's going to be such a unique, interesting thing. You know, it feels like we watch all these players do nothing to work out videos

if you're on social media. Obviously, Chase Young, we see it constantly. We saw hats and throwing the receivers all off season. But, you know, we're not really watch. I'm watching all these guys do this,

and there is a big difference, of course, between doing some workouts and being in game shape. They've got a month to get there. But, yeah, I mean, well, I think that's going to be one of the interesting things whenever we get out of the training campus with weather allows, is to see as best we can, you know, what kind of shape these guys are in. And so maybe for him in particular, it's going to be something to keep an eye on, not questioning that it won't be there, but just that that's one of the things,

as the source said, to keep the thought off for him. And then specifically, you know, I just think for all these guys, I think that's going to be such a fascinating aspect of this weird off season. Did you listen to Rivera with me this morning? I did. Very good interview as only. So did you, were you also struck by the consistency on him, Del Rio, et cetera, mentioning Kevin Pierre-Louis almost the first thing that comes to their mind

when they start thinking about, you know, the linebackers that they have and even, you know, the overall defense? Yeah, 100%. And I immediately, that was my immediate thought because Del Rio, I don't remember the exact question when he was asked this was to, not just to me, but this was to a group interview some time ago. And he said, when talking to the linebackers, he said, and by the way, don't forget about Kevin Pierre Lewis. People are probably not talking about him enough. Okay, cool. Good to note.

Appreciate that. But I still suspect that most people have gone around still focusing on Cole. Holcomb, Thomas Davis, John Bostic, you know, et cetera. And now Rivera, the first name, you ask him for a sleeper, first name he gives you is him. And, yeah, I think it's, again, we have, you know, none of us have seen him play here at all or do anything. So it's hard to just think about it in those terms.

And it's not like he was like some flashy college kid coming in or some, you know, notable free agent. And he was, oh, okay, this guy. I don't know. He's a special team's guy primarily and has been. Right, right. I remember talking to somebody during the off season after that, right around the time they made that move and said, you know, he actually wasn't that bad when he played late in the season. But, you know, I mean, at somebody who covered Andre Blatch for the Wizards, when Blatch would kick butt for the last 10 games of the season, I'm always leery of guys who do well late in the year for bad teams. I was like, okay, sure, I'm not doubting it, but let me see it.

But, yes, now we have two guys, the two guys that matter the most. praising him. And it's at a position where there's major uncertainty. I mean, I don't think anybody could definitively say that any of these linebackers will be starting. We can maybe assume Cole Holcomb, Thomas Davis, John Bostic, but I don't think it's like a lock the way we would be with some other positions. So the fact that he keeps getting mentioned is definitely something to we should all be keeping an eye on. You don't even refer to him as Kevin Pierre-L-L-L-L-L-law. it's KPL, like we all should know who KPL is, because they clearly are comfortable with him. That has stood out without question over the last couple of months.

What are you hearing about Ruben Foster who came off the publicist this week? Well, interestingly enough, we're going to actually hear from Ruben Foster today. Last I saw, he's on the list to speak with the media on the Zoom call today, which I was honestly kind of surprised by. I mean, they have kept him under the rap for two years. you've never heard from him. And I know he's only now just getting off the Puppliff, but I'm sort of surprised they were making him available this fact.

We still haven't talked to 95% of the team. So I'm very interested in that. Look, I mean, I think he's, so far, you know, we're only hearing a little bit about what's going on. They're not, you know, they only just put on a helmet yesterday. They haven't put on pad. So I haven't heard a ton, but, you know, what the coaches are saying is, you know, they're pretty optimistic.

His heads in the game that he's been focused from the mental side of things and that physically, you know, I don't think they're wanting to put out any real type of, like, over-the-top expectations, but I think they're, you know, hopeful. I think maybe it would be overly optimistic to say the speed he displayed as a rookie is there, but that's not to say it can't get there. I honestly just don't really know quite yet. I'm not sure really they know quite yet until things, start to get going.

I mean, when somebody said to me, knowing, you know, we were with the media are going to start to get out there, was basically saying, you know, calm, calm down with, like, overstating how good somebody looks, one, until they even get pads on, and two, even then, just like, wait, you know, it's, maybe the receivers and the defensive backs, you can get some sort of judgment, but the guys who were, like, near the line of scrimmage, you know, just wait a minute. But I'm fascinated to see, he's obviously hit, Ruben Foster and Bryce love to me. are probably the two most specific, interesting players to watch.

Coming off of injuries, big stars in college, Foster obviously has extra controversy with him, but in terms of the football, he actually can play at a level he was even close to with the Niners before some of his problems. I mean, that would be a massive upgrade for the flybacker unit. Yeah, so I agree with you on Foster and love. It's like the same kind of thing.

Now, I was in love with love. at Stanford. And I saw a guy that was, you know, maybe not Christian McCaffrey, but damn close as a college player. He wasn't what, you know, Cooley described McCaffrey. As Cooley basically said, McCaffrey would be a first round wide receiver in that draft that he came out in addition to being a first round running back. You know, love isn't necessarily that. But the Ruben Foster thing, you know, it's the same thing that I feel about Duran Payne, if you go back and you watch his tape from

Bama, but really his rookie year in San Francisco, he is an outrageous talent. You know, I remember when they signed him, I was not fond of the move in the Me Too era and with the way they handled it. But I remember some of my friends saying, well, he's not that good anyway. I mean, he didn't have

any sacks, you know, in the first two seasons. I'm like, if you watch this guy play, he is a star. Like, he He's a ridiculous talent, but we just don't know, like with the Bryce Love thing, getting cleared to play football, but whether or not you're really going to be back to where you were, we won't know that until we see him on the field. But it's intriguing to think, and hopefully, you know, especially if he's got his act together off the field. For sure. And, you know, obviously it's the nature of my job that people ask questions on the lines of how good could they be this year. what do you think?

And, you know, I'm not trying to, like, hedge by any stretch, because I like making predictions or I'm willing to sort of stick my neck out there when I think I think something. But in this case, the level of the amount of unknowns, beyond the fact we haven't seen them do anything because of the way the offseason went and we still haven't seen them anything. And even when we finally see them next week in pads, it still won't mean that much because they will only have just started this process.

But it really are an insane amount. of unknowns in some big spots. Like I said, on the entire offense, other than maybe Brandon's sheriff, you can't really point to anything. And by the way, he's coming off injury. You can't really point to almost anything and say, feel pretty good about it,

you know, confident-wise. I only had Terry McCorn to that. But in terms of the, like, usage or how things will go. And defense doesn't have as many things. But like I said, if Rubin Foster is anywhere close to what he was with San Francisco, he would be the best linebacker that they have, most likely.

And that would be a big deal because otherwise, You know, we'll see. I mean, again, KPL. We'll see what he does. He's only going into a second year and so on. But, yeah, it's not a group that you're going, wow, this is a real strength. This is definitely a potential concern.

So I think it just adds to the confusion. And by the way, if Ruben Foster can do some good things, and he's now doing it behind this defensive line, which projects to be really good, and that makes it even more interesting. So sticking with the defensive side of the ball, in all of these different Zoom calls and you talking with league people, who do you think they like in their secondary? I'll start with Corner. Who do you think they like it, Corner? Well, obviously, they went out and signed Kendall 4 to the contract they signed them to.

And, you know, the front office are the people that also drafted them and so on. So I think it probably starts there, the versatility, the fact that he can play in a few different spots. And, you know, I think they haven't said this. I'm just sort of imagining the fact that, you know, he, unlike other defensive backs that have been here in recent years, he doesn't come with the sort of the diva vibe. And I think getting away from that, probably something that people are excited about. but I think Kendall Fuller versatility is a big deal. I honestly think from there, though, it's a big, a lot of question marks again.

Ronald Darby's been a good cornerback in this league, but he hasn't been able to stay healthy for the last three years. I think Fabian Moreau, he was somebody that I asked Del Rio about when I spoke to, I specifically asked about him with some league sources, because he really did step up. He was much better when they moved into the outside. in the year versus when he was in the slot. If that player exists this year, you know, it's conceivable.

He's the second cornerback opposite Fuller rather than, rather than Darby. So I, but at the same point, I really think this is another position that there's a bunch of question marks. And Rivera has sort of hinted at it himself that they still don't quite know exactly what's going to happen. And, you know, this is where these training camps are going to be a huge deal. I mean, it's funny that we're seeing. here isn't a cornerback going head to head, and other than, say, McCorn and maybe

Fuller, everybody else who will be in those matchups is very much, it is important, it is very important for everybody involved to get a sense of what they have, because I don't think people necessarily know for sure. Are they excited about Landing Collins, do you think? I do think that. I think, you know, this connects to, I'm sure we talked about this or you have before. you know, one of the upgrades that everybody believes is going to happen this year is with the coaching staff. That with Del Rio, with having the head coach who's on the defensive side of the ball,

and then just collectively, you know, having a staff, you know, that is, I think, an upgrade over what was there last year, particularly on defense, I think we'll go a long way towards maximizing how to use some of these guys. Atlanta Collins was totally solid last year, but I don't think it was the full-blownie. impact that that was maybe expected. And I'm not saying that necessarily on him. You know, all these things are connected to each other. And he was going through a lot last year, that secondary, you know, a lot of different moving pieces and so on.

Yeah, I think they're expecting a lot out of him, a guy who can make plays, you know, around the line of scrimmaging, but also be a present on the back end. And look, he's an incredibly talented player. I saw some story, somebody did, I don't know, maybe on the ESPN, I did a story about players on each team

who potentially could make the Hall of Fame someday. And it mentioned Linen Collins, not to say that he was going there, but based on the early part of his career, like it's something to sort of keep an eye on, I guess, because of what he's ever able to achieve and pro balls and things like that. And I'm only mentioning that to say,

he is a highly thought of player. It did feel slightly, underwhelming last year the impact, but I think that, you know, with everything that's going on up front and the coaching staff, I think people are expecting a lot more from him. I really thought there were moments last year where I saw a star, especially in the box, and I know everybody, you know, sort of penciled him in as an in-the-box safety, and then I heard others, including my good friend Chris Cooley, talk about, you know, him being a little bit more versatile than maybe most people thought. But when he was close to the line of scrimmage,

I saw a very aggressive, solid tackling player that could really make plays. And then you put him into that mix behind everything else we've been talking about. And that's why I think this team is, you know, at least worth keeping an eye on if you're just an NFL fan is, you know, will Rivera and Del Rio coach this defense up to some. something that essentially ends in a big leap statistically and maybe really impacts games. All right, we'll save some of the offensive stuff for the next time we talk. I did want to get your thoughts on the Wall Street Journal story and the earlier in the week's stuff about Snyder and the discovery thing in the Alexandria court looking for

and trying to identify who funded what he believes to be a misinformation campaign against him leading up to that post story, tying him to, you know, Jeffrey Epstein, tying him to illegal sex trafficking and bribing referees, etc. What did you think of the journal story? Where do you think this leads? Yeah, this is the fun stuff, right? this is the the juicy gossip stuff with a lot of intrigue because obviously

on some level Dan Snyder you know I mean every time people you know the hashtag fire Bruce Allen and people were so adamant that he had to go and I'm always like I hear you

the owner's not going anywhere you get that right the owner Bruce Allen wasn't here the first 10 years when things were even messier well maybe not since the last couple months but the first 10 years were arguably messier than

the last 10 years until recently. So everything with Dan Siders ownership is fascinating. And that includes this. So basically, I mean, you're probably even tracking us closer than I am, but basically the Wall Street Journal article talked about, we already knew that these minority owners were looking to potentially get out and maybe see about getting Dan Snyder to sell to them. But now this is more about talking about pressuring, possibly pressuring him to

sell because for them it would be if nothing else, their shares of their of the team would go up if they could sell it to somebody in total and then when you factor in this whole law thing in which part of the story is all a claim from the Snyder side that a former

that one of the minority owners may be involved in having a former executive assistant for Snyder helping to put out some of this bad information or potentially bad information, whatever it is. I don't know. I guess it's bad information.

I don't know. About all those crazy rumors that were going on during the time of the Washington Post story and how that's all fairly, fairly nuts. I don't even know. I don't even know if this whole thing, connecting to everything is kind of going on in society these days. It's just like sort of has my head blown as to. It's hard to even know what to believe, what's fact of fiction,

and the fact that we now have this setting up to be this major soap opera. uh... here i get the most interesting thing to me on some level was sort of the law suit itself that dan snyder uh... through his lawyer really pushed that he was really pushing this idea that that somebody was planning this information out there and that it's he may they may be tying it to one of these um minority minority owners is really mind-blowing it's it's really

and especially because like it's not like these guys just showed up yesterday these minority owners have been around a long time. And how did we get from these guys have been around to supposedly they're planting information with an Indian internet company to put out these bad rumors about

Dan Snyder? It really is just unbelievable on so many levels. Ultimately, like I said, I sort of look past some of the fun to just get to the point of any of this mean Dan Snyder selling the team anytime soon. I kind of come down to know. So in my own head, I kind of

move on, but at the same point, this is so fascinating to see where this is going to go. Yeah, it really is. The whole thing, I mean, this is, it's funny because I think as we get closer to a season, you know this and I know this because we communicate with a lot of the fans. There is that percentage of fans that will say, can we just focus on the goddamn football, please? We're a month away from the opener against the Eagles. Why do we have to have all of this? Well, we have to talk about all this because all of this is always out there. I mean, it's always something. And, you know, it's self-inflicted always.

It's not, you know, a figment of a media imagination. It's not, I don't believe, you know, an intentional league-driven attempt to get him out of there. this is always self-inflicted. He's made many more enemies than friends over the years. The people that have been associated with him usually get burned. These three people were big boys when they invested. Fred Smith was a big boy when he put his name on the stadium, when he put his company's name on the stadium.

But like with a lot of these relationships with him, they always go south and they don't end up, you know, well. And it's just like every head coach that's been hired, you know, leaves with reputation, you know, tarnished. And this one, though, more than any of the others in recent years, deals with what I believe to be, in my opinion, you know, a wish from many fans past and present. And that is for a new owner. And this is a story that deals with ownership structure, with, minority owners trying to pressure him to sell with a league that, you know, what we've heard really would prefer a different owner in D.C. So there's a lot of pressure on him now that we're

hearing about for the first time to get rid of the team. Now, he may dig his heels in, and none of this stuff that's been out there, the Post story, is enough on its own to get a three-fourths vote by the other owners to force him out. But it's a lot of smoke, man. A lot of smoke. And I would imagine, I'd be very surprised. We still have a Beth Wilkinson investigation going on that's going to produce something. We, you know, typically when you see these stories with so many people stepping forward to accuse of harassment, there are typically more to come. I have no idea whether or not that's true, but it wouldn't be unusual. So I think there's a lot to come on this thing.

You know, we're going to have a football season to follow, but when you have a potential minority owner funding a disinformation campaign against his partner and the majority owner, after it's already been reported that you and the other two minority owners won out and want nothing to do with him, it would there, it's, it's, it's salacious. It's, you know, for some people, it's like, let's focus on the football, but this is about the football. This is about the ownership of this franchise and whether or not it's a stable ownership or whether or not the ownership ultimately changes. I wouldn't bet on a change anytime soon, but I would bet on a future change. I don't know that I'd put a timeline on it. I would say maybe two, three years. I just think that he steps into it so much on his own that something else will happen at some point, and eventually it's not going to be worth it.

And by the way, with television deals coming up, with this market being so attractive as an NFL market without him in it, he's going to be able to sell this franchise for $5 billion plus. It will become, if it is sold, I believe, the biggest sale of a North American sports franchise of all time. Not to say that if the Cowboys were for sale or the Giants were for sale, that they wouldn't be bigger sales. But if it is sold, it would become the biggest of any in the history of North America. I think with all that's out there to come, with new TV deals, et cetera, the legalization of gambling in so many areas and what people think that's going to do to sports,

it would be quite a haul if they were to sell this team. for for for sure you know as i'm sitting here listening to you talk about this i'm thinking a couple things like one like if if any of this is true that one of the minority owners is behind or connected or is doing something to you know put some stuff out there to potentially hurt dan snider well you know you have to ask on some level well if that is the case what else are they willing to do um you know you always talk about the term people know where the body are buried. I mean, obviously, these guys based on their

statuses, minority owners who were around, you know, they clearly would know all kinds of things that have happened with this organization, whatever that would mean. And so if they're willing to sort of play dirty potentially, if any of this is accurate, then you've had to have to wonder what else

is happening. On the flip side, if it's not, and he's now openly accusing them of these things, well, the same sort of thing would apply, you wonder, like, wait, what, your, you're saying I'm doing what? Well, okay, just to be clear, I know X, Y, Z, or who knows, or whatever. So, yeah, this whole thing, the fact that, I mean, I got the email from Snyder's attorney like everybody else did in town, saying, hey, we have this, you know, some stuff to discuss, whatever.

And I was, I had to read it twice to make sure I was, like, looking at this correctly. It's really, you know, the fact that we've reached this point is pretty, it's pretty fascinating. And I think it would say to me, here's the, I would just say. I know, like you said, some people are like, can't we just talk about football? I think I have never seen a, I don't know what you would call this, but like a point that's more universal than this one, and that is for all organizations, whether you're talking sports or in the business world or government or whatever, everything starts at the top. It is so universally true, always, always, always. And so we can sit here and say this has nothing to do with whether

the football team's going to win on some days. Yeah, it does. Because the stability of an organization, how things are discussed, what you think, Ron, I heard you discuss with Rivera, like how much, you know, could he believe that he has to deal with all this stuff? It's not going

away. You think he wants to keep talking about all these random things for the rest of time? If the owner's never going to talk, Rivera is the one who's going to keep answering questions, at some point, it's going to be like, okay, I've had enough. The players don't want to have to dealing with these things.

It's always in the air. Free agents are going to be like, wait, what? Again, this place, I don't know. Like, whatever it may be. There will ripple effects constantly. It's also the people in the building. It exists. It's in the air. It's undeniable. Again, not just there, any place that would have these issues. So, yeah, if

while Rivera seems like the right guy for the right, for the right moment in terms of what he brings as a coach, as a leader, as a person, this other stuff doesn't seem like it's going away, and ultimately that's why it's hard to view it as, at least for me, that change is really in the air for this at this place. That's the overriding thing,

is that successful organizations have successful leaders, and it all starts at the top. You know, the fish rots from the head down, and this one has over 20 years. It's amazing what they've been able to accomplish in 20 years with essentially chasing one of the most passionate fan bases away or significant percentage of it. And, you know, the problem, and Tommy and I have talked about this a lot on the podcast, is that, and you saw it in the reaction to the post story, is that he doesn't seem to get it.

You know, you always hope and you wish for people to evolve, for people to, you know, become more self-aware. For 21 years, what we've witnessed is an owner that never thinks it's his fault. Never. And yet, it starts at the top. And all the decisions to hire all these people over the years have ultimately rested with him. And when you got this post story and you didn't get, A, an apology and B, more importantly, a taking of responsibility, it was another indication that he still doesn't get it. He still can't look in the mirror and see the problem.

It's always someone else that has screwed this up on his behalf. And that's just, that's the discouraging part. And I'm encouraged by Ron Rivera. I've talked about that a lot. I think he's a decent man. I think he's a good coach. And if he's given some autonomy here and the owner stays out of it, I think he's got a chance to have some success.

But the owner at some point for this thing to have really a chance is going to have to admit that he's been the problem. And I just don't think at 55 years old he'll ever admit that. If you couldn't take responsibility for top-down toxic culture after that post story, and you had your sales and marketing department send out a letter attaching the post story and saying, this is true, all that internet rampant speculation about Epstein is false, almost being like this over here, this post story, which isn't anything like the internet rumors that we're flying around, this is true. You know, you can believe this, but not the

other stuff. The whole thing has been unseemly indecent for two decades, and I don't know that it'll ever change. Doesn't mean they can't have a good season or two every once in a while. that's what the league is designed for, even the worst of franchises to occasionally hit an inside straight and have a winning season. But it's really hard with the ownership that this organization has had to win consistently. And it won't as long as he's here in my view. But I'm still rooting for Ron. And I still think that they've got some pretty good defensive players.

We'll find out. Anyway. Yeah, absolutely. There's definitely some intrigue. I'll just say, like, you know, we've all talked to all kinds of people, you know, this calendar year about this team. And I have one article I was proud of a couple weeks ago was sort of the idea of Ron Rivera has a lot of juice, but Dan Snyder, it's ultimately still his show and sort of the kicker quote in there with somebody saying that, you know, basically Rivera can say whatever he wants about how he and Mr. Snyder get along,

but that the reality is he actually hasn't met the real Dan Snyder yet. That's right. And then they take time. And when it happens, we'll see what he thinks. Yeah, I think he could probably talk to Dwight Sharr and Fred Smith about what the real Dan Snyder is, because maybe early on they were enamored with him as well. Anyway, thanks. Read Ben on the Athletic again.

Discounted opportunity right now. Take advantage of that. It's totally worthwhile. And of course, you can follow Ben on Twitter at Ben Standig. We'll catch up either next week or the week after. I appreciate this. Hopefully by then I'll have seen a practice. Thanks, sir.

Yeah, exactly. Thanks, Ben. Caps and Islanders tonight at 8 o'clock. I mean, by the time you listen to the podcast, the game might be underway or it might be over. But one of my favorite hockey guests, whether it's on the radio show or on the podcast, is Greg Wyshinsky, the senior NHL writer at ESPN. And, you know, we haven't talked before this postseason started. it started, and I always like your, you know, pre-playoff predictions as it relates to the

caps and overall, before game one the other day, where did you have them? Were you bullish on them going into the postseason or not? I thought they would win the series. You know, I was about it interesting that there was so much attention paid to the Barry Trots revenge on the Capitol's kind of storyline that they, he, People didn't quite understand that there's a number of people on the capitals that won a Family Cup with Barry Trot. That would like nothing more than defeat him in a series as well. Sure.

It's a two-way street. So I thought the Capitals had a real shot in the series. I know the Islanders play a defensive style that makes it difficult for the Cap to do some of the things they do best. And now that the Islanders had a round of sort of proof of concept against the Panthers, they're clearly locked in and playing really well. but I just thought the caps would be able to finagle a couple wins and hopefully he would maybe play a little bit better than he did in game one so we'll see I mean the the outlanders are going to be a very tough out

but I wouldn't cut out the capitals quite yet back to game one before we look forward did you think the Anders Lee hit on Baxter deserved punishment maybe in game I mean I just think it's it's just a hard hit you know interference very close, at least, to it. I don't think it was headhunting.

I don't think it was predatory. I think those are the kinds of things that Todd Rudin has to say in the hopes that maybe one of the best goalscores on the other side gets a suspension in the series. But I had no problem with it being supplemental. They're not being supplemental discipline. It's an injurious game, and sometimes borderline hits and produce injuries, and it sucks because it's Nicky, and he's pretty important to the team.

But in that case, I don't think that it necessarily rose to the level of supplemental discipline. How much of the loss, the blame for the loss, do you put on Holtby? He wasn't good. And that's sort of a disappointing thing because I think as Braden's numbers overall have sort of trended down in the last couple of seasons, I think that one thing he's been able to rely on is the fact that he has been traditionally, one of the better goalies in the postseason. So to see him have kind of a soft game and to know that he's kind of playing without a net

considering the injury situation with the goaltenders is a little disappointing. But I think his team in front of him could also have bailed him out a little bit more insofar as, you know, carrying the play, doing some of the things that when the caps are playing well, they do best, and then not having that happen against the Islanders team. But again, you know, I think that there's so many dynamics at play

in this tournament, be it the, you know, no-fans thing, be it the no-travel thing, but it's also a game one after the Islanders complete an elimination series against the Panthers and the capitals kind of sleepwalk through a round-robin tournament that a lot of teams that were in certainly haven't necessarily answered the bell after finishing them. So what was the most disappointing thing in terms of perhaps a harbinger of things to come from game one and then looking forward to the next game and the rest of the series? Was there something that stood out that was alarming if you think the caps, you're rooting for them or you think they should win this series?

Well, I don't think it's a harbinger of things to come, but I was really sort of stunned by their compete level in the first game. And again, that could just be a symptom of having to try and apply. a new gear all of a sudden. Did you say their compete level? I'm sorry, I missed that. Yeah, they're compete level. I mean, I think if you watch that game, it was T.J. O'Shee playing at a T.J.O.C. level.

And then a couple of other guys. And then the rest of the rosters seemed like they were in a different gear. And so, you know, we've seen that with some of these teams coming out of the round Robin. I mean, Dallas Stars are a good example where, you know, they dropped game one against Calgary, and you can see they're kind of sleepwalking through the thing. the St. Louis Blues dropped game one to Vancouver, and they looked like they were in a different gear

than the music and the tempo that the Canucks were playing at. So we've seen some really good teams that were in that exhibition tournament, not necessarily be able to, you know, ratchet it up when they get into the quarterfinals. So I hesitate to say that it's a trend. But, I mean, again, like, not to overpraise the game that Osi had in game one, but he was the only guy that was really evident, you know, and was like present and going of the net and trying to score the goals that you're going to have to try to score against

this Islander's defense. And they're going to need a lot more of that. And look, you know, they're getting a guy back in game two. They're losing Baxter, but they're getting a guy back in game two in Marzeller that during the cup run and traditionally is the type of player that can bring that energy and that can go to the net and they can do the things you need to do. against the tight defensive team. So I think that he is going to be an asset now that he's back in the lineup,

but they're going to need more of that type of effort because he can't play to the margins against the Islander's defense. It's too good. A Barry Trotz team is too good. You've got to be able to get in there, score dirty goals, and certainly capitalize on the power play opportunities that you're given. So a couple of interesting things off of what you just said. Number one is this, and I think I talked to Tark-El Bashir on the radio about this the

other day. It may have been Beninati, I forget. But I said that, you know, this is the first time, you know, I think, in the NHL playoffs where you're going to have teams that were playing playoff games come into a playoff series against higher-seated teams that it's sort of potentially been going through the motions. We get that in the NFL. You know, the wild card teams play that first weekend and then the top two seeds are awaiting them in the divisional round. You get that in the NCAA tournament, Greg, because you'll get to, you'll get, teams that now play in the first four. And I'm not talking about the 16 seeds, but the, you know, the bigger schools in the 11 versus 11 game to advance to the next round. And they seem to

thrive at least early. Now, it's a one and done in the NFL in March Madness, and this is a best of seven, so they're not comparable. But there is typically this advantage that the team that's been playing the pressure-packed games has, and it seems like you feel that that is. You feel that that is where the islanders, you know, were ready for this kind of playoff intensity, and the capitals weren't. Yeah, and I think that you see another series, too. I mean, the Blue Jackets come off a five-game series against the Leaf that is clearly an intense five-game series, and then they hit the ground running and play the lightning to five overtimes and then beat him in the next game. But I push back a little bit that this is something, I mean, it is something

we've never seen before, obviously, where teams haven't never played a full playoff series while a team that they're about to play is kind of noodling through an exhibition round. But it is something that we see every year in the NHL because of the way that the playoff structure is set up, where you have teams

that for maybe two or three weeks are playing at a playoff intensity in order to try to make the playoff on the bubble. And then you have a number one seed that's kind of just lullingagging around getting ready for her. the next phase of the season.

And that's one of the reasons why, along with hot goalies and just the randomness of hockey that you end up seeing so many upsets in the first round is you have these teams that are, you know, clearly locked in and playing a certain style of hockey that are now taking on teams that are sort of flat-footed. And, you know, the greatest example to go back to the jackets and the lightning was last season with the sweep in the first round with Columbus, where, you know, to a man, the lightning were like, you know, we had 130 points. They're anything to play for for two months, and then the blue jackets come in and blow the doors off them because they've been playing playoff games every day for two weeks.

So it is a phenomenon that we do see in the regular season at times, which have not seen it as uniquely set up as this to play out. That's fair, but I also love when a hockey guy will include the randomness of the sport, because there is a randomness to this sport that may not exist in others because of the nature of the game. and played on ice with skates with a puck that deflects in odd ways all over the place. I mean, that first OSHA goal was, I mean, Varlamov had no idea what side of the net it was after the Karam off, you know, a skate and off the board that went perfectly to OSHA with an open net. It's always interesting. And by the way, I think it makes it exciting. You know, you also talked a little bit about their lack of intensity.

It's funny because I actually thought the intensity of the game was really evident. Like it felt like a playoff game to me watching it. It was intense. There was a chippiness to it. And even without the fans there, I actually think this sport in the sports restart of the major sports has been the easiest to consume in the most similar to what we used to get. How have you viewed what we've been watching for a few weeks, and now over the last couple of days with straight playoff games? Do you feel the intensity as if it's a playoff game in May or June?

It's different. I mean, you know, as much as they – there's two different ways to answer that question. The first is that from the fan or viewer perspective. And the example I've been giving is that this is sort of the Beyond Meat Burger of hockey, where they get the look of it and they get the taste of. of it and it could trick your brain into thinking that you're eating red meat, but you're not eating red meat at the end of the day if you want a cheeseburger. I mean, it's only to go so far, right? But they've done everything that they tend to kind of trick our brains into thinking

it's playoff hockey. And in some cases, the games have certainly lived up to the moniker of it being a Stanley Cup playoff game. So I think from a viewer's perspective, it's been really fun. And there's been an amazing game to watch. The player's perspective is very interesting. Coming into the bubbles, a lot of the guys said, we understand it's not going to be the same level of intensity

because the fans aren't there. The fans in the atmosphere of playoff games is something that you can't replicate. And they all talked about the necessity to kind of self-motivate and figure out how to kick into that next year without those aesthetics. Now what you're hearing, at least from Duke of Rasker, the Boston Bruins, after their game against Carolina this week, is some of the players saying, all right, well, it's not like we even thought it was going to be.

He called it dull. He called it an exhibition game. I don't know if he's speaking at a turn or if he's speaking for a silent majority or what. But it's clear that in some cases, players are still struggling with ratching it up that intensity that they find when playing in front of fans inside of the empty arenas, even as, you know, there's something on the line, even as they pump in music and crowd noise into the arena, it's just hard to replicate it, I think. But from a viewing standpoint, I mean, I think, I've watched every sport that restarted this summer, and I don't think any of them hold a candle

to how good hockey looks on TV. I agree with you. So, you know, what is the most effective part of that trick, you know, fooling us from to believing that it's actually red meat, not beyond meat? What do you think that has been the key to the trick? Well, it's two things. It's first understanding the sort of symphonic aspect of playoff hockey. I did a story this week for ESPN.com. You can check it out on the website where I talked to the guy who presses the crowd reaction buttons in Edmonton and also talk to EA sports about how they developed all the sounds for the game

because they have a library of different cheers and reactions that these guys. guys are using and to create the sound that we hear on television and now what the players are now hearing in the arena as well. And it's a fascinating process. And I think that they really did a great job in understanding the, one, the soundscape that exists in hockey to begin with, the, you know, skates on the ice and the pock and the sticks and the boards, the whole thing, recreating the murmur of the crowd that you normally hear when you watch a hockey game and then, you know, amping it up and allowing these guys to

add and sweeten the sound, the cheering and enough. other reactions. I think the soundscape of hockey is perfectly, almost perfectly recreated on television, although you miss the spontaneity of Canton, you certainly miss the booing. You don't get it all on these broadcasts for, and that's an editorial choice. But the other reason I think that it worked was that... It is an editorial choice? They... Oh, yeah, yeah. They, they, they, the, I read about this

the story, the philosophy of presenting these games on television was that they were going to be neutral sight games and treated as such. So you're actually going to hear both goals songs when teams score. You're going to hear cheering in some ways of both teams. You know, there might be a little bit more of a home team advantage in some of the reactions, but for the both part, it's very neutral sight. In fact, the NHL has told me that the only time you might hear booing is when Betman brings a cup out. They might continue that tradition and hit him with some booze.

I hope he has a sense of humor about it. He will, right? Apparently he's got a sense of humor about it. But I was going to say the other thing that they did really well was they acknowledged the fact that this was, these are games inside of empty arenas. And while they wanted to make it sound and look like hockey as best they could, they also didn't want to make it feel like you're watching a game in a cavernous empty building. So putting the tarps over the seats, you know, kind of creating it almost like you've stuck.

a hockey rink inside of a TV studio where you've got these video screens and these lighting rigs and they worked with local theater companies in Toronto and Edmonton to create these stages around the rink. They did a really smart job kind of deciding that

we're going to present the sport, it's going to look like hockey, we're going to have it in a rink, but everything else around it is going to almost feel like you entered like the American Gladiator arena. Like it's a made-for-TV event and I think that's you know, the dude's name is Steve mayor, he's the content officer for the NHL.

He's also the guy that does all the accoutremalum that you see around the rinks at the Winter Classic and stuff. Right. You know, the fake planes and stuff like that. Really smart guy, and I think that he deserves multitudes of accolades for the way that this thing looks and sounds on television. I, uh, that's interesting and it makes sense based on what I've watched. I also believe, and I can't be specific about what it is, but even going back to live crowds

and true road and home games. There's something about NBC's coverage, whether it's NBC or NBC Sports Network, of this league in this league's postseason, that is just really first-rate comparable, you know, to the other sports. I just think it's incredibly well done. Well, I mean, your mileage on them varies

depending on how much you like some of the voices that call the game. You know, I think anybody who's been on social media during a Mike Milbury or Pierre McGuire. Sure. ... understands that there's a certain distracting aspect from the coverage of time. But I think from an aesthetic point of view, look, none of us who broadcast these games, be at NBC or anybody else in the future, we're all kind of playing catch-up to the way that Canada presents the games from an aesthetic point of view, camera work and editing and everything

like that. the games on Canadian intelligence are top-notch productions. And I think NBC does a really good job in – it has always been a really good job in camera work and capturing moments and things like that. I think in the case of both Sportsnet and NBC, you know, they've had the advantage of being able to add 12 new cameras in each arena, including one that's that GIT cam that kind of flies over the ice. Right. right.

You're looking at a video game, and I was talking to somebody. They've actually, like, placed that right where, like, the best seats in the house would be. And, you know, if fans were there, they wouldn't have had that opportunity. So I think some of the real triumph in the way that the games have been presented has been because of the fact that these games are in empty arenas, and they've been able to really utilize the extra cameras they've had to make it work. We're talking to Greg Wyshinsky. He is the senior NHL writer at ESPN. All right. Back to the hockey. What do you think we'll see in game two tonight?

And what's your prediction about what we'll see the rest of the series? Well, you know, we've seen this before where the caps have all of a sudden been without Baxter. And, you know, it's hard not to think about the cup run whenever you talk about the caps in the playoffs now, considering how many carryovers there are from that team. And, you know, they won three or four games about Baxter during that run. And had guys step up and had, you know, players, you know, thriving in different roles. And so, you know, this is the type of moment that really tests the medal of a team on, you know, who in the lineup can step up to really create a difference when you're missing one of your big

offensive players. And so that's one level of intrigue. And I'm confident that the capitals will respond. kind to not having Nikki there because they have before. And then the real question is their bounceback ability. And I think the biggest part of that is Braden Holtey, who, again, you know, has acquitted himself to be one of the better postseason goalies, maybe the last decade, if you go by the numbers, and it has to play like it in game two, because across the ice, they're not giving

up much. You know, the margins on this series are going to be pretty thin when it comes to goal scored because that's the way the founders want to play. to say they aren't a talented team. I mean, I think that in the case of teams like Dallas and the Islanders in Columbus, you know, three teams that try to play a defensive style and smother you and not necessarily

are always pushing up the ice. I throw Arizona in there as well. I think all those teams kind of trick you into believing they don't have elite offensive talent in the case of the Islanders, I think they do in some places. But they're not going to give you much. So the answer is, the short answer

is hope that Holti is better and hope that the centers that move up the depth chart with Nick, with Nick Baxter out, perform in kind like the ones that did two years ago did. Last one, and I'll let you run. Boston obviously appeared to be before the shutdown, head and shoulders above everybody else, certainly in the Eastern Conference. They end up as the fourth seed. They're in a tight series with Carolina, one, one through two games. The Bay was obviously starting to play better. Philly was really starting to get on a role there. They've sort of continued it.

Who do you like in the East? Who's impressed you? And then the West as well. Just give me a couple teams that you really think are going to be tough to knock out. Well, Flyers really have sort of found themselves, you know, using the Round Robin to do so, securing the first seat overall in the East. and looking really good. I mean, they are a well-put-put-together team.

They've got a couple of lines that can scare you. They've got a good young defense, and, you know, Proverop is the guy who I think is starting to really blossom. And they have Carter Hart and Goal, who is, you know, it's funny that they're playing Montreal right now because I think he is going to be the one to inherit the mantle from Kerry Price as the next great Canadian goalie. So they're really good.

So that would be my team from the Round Robin that I have my eyes on. But the team from the qualification around the East, and they're right back in the series now, is Carolina. Carolina is a really fun team to watch, a really fun team to cover because of their coach, Rod Brindamore, and some of the personalities that they have on that team. Their goaltending, I think, scares me still a little bit with Morazick and Reimer. But the fact is that they've now found themselves a top line, or at least a top line player. in Svetnikov, who is a difference maker. And that's the big key this year versus last year

in playing a team like Boston, that Svichnikov leveled up during the regular season this year, and is an offensive force that they just simply didn't have on the roster last time they tangled with Boston. So they're a team that I'm really excited to see exactly how far they can go. And then quickly, in the West Vegas is a juggernaut. They are really good. But, you know, Chicago gave, you know, gave us all a thrill with the upset over Edmonton,

but now they are facing the antithesis of Edmonton, which is a deep team with four lines, a team that plays extraordinarily good defense, and a team that can get quality goal-tending from either Robin Lainer or Mark Andre Fleur, but Lainer at the moment has decreased. Vegas is, I think, shaping up to be a pretty heavy favorite in the Western Conference, with the caveat that the Colorado Avalanche are probably number two. and with the caveat that if they continue to play as it did in game one, the Vancouver Canucks could be a real Cinderella team out of the west with the exciting young talent that they have in their core.

That Columbus-Tampa game to start was incredible. And I thought that series going in, because of what happened last year with Tampa Bay being the number one overall and getting swept by the blue jackets, that that was going to be intense. And you just reminded me, right? Boston, Carolina, that was the Eastern Conference. last year. It certainly was, yeah. After Carolina knocked off the caps in that double overtime game

seven on their way to that. It's exciting to watch. I'm with you. I think by far and away, the sports, in terms of the pro sports that have returned, this one's felt like the closest thing to the real thing. I'm a golf guy, so the golf's actually been pretty good, too. But you see a lot of golf tournaments without fans lining certain fairways with certain golfers. So it doesn't look that unusual. But I think whatever they've done, they've gotten most of this right. And, you know, we're in for a fun, you know, next month and a half or however long it takes. Yep, absolutely.

It's going to be cool. I'm excited that hockey's back. I think they deserve a lot of accolades for coming up with a way to create a unique tournament that I think fans had been into. And I think that these are obviously even more accolades for coming up with a way to bring the sport back in the two hub cities that so far have produced no positive COVID-19 test through the first couple of weeks, which is, you know, our greatest fear in this whole thing is that we get to a certain point and all of a sudden, you know, the bubble starts to burst. I think it's a combination of them being really smart and listening to the right people. The doctors and medical experts telling them how to do this the right way. And I think it's also a tribute to the players who, even during phase three, the training camp phase where they were able to go to the rank and then go home,

they all took this very seriously. And they all have that kind of attitude of like, I don't want to screw this up with the guy next to me and go to the club. Or something at night. So I think it's a tribute to everybody involved that it's gone off as smoothly as it has. As I wrote on ESPN.com the other day, the most remarkable thing about restarting this season in a COVID-19 pandemic is how much we haven't talked about COVID-19, which I think is a really good place for the NHL to be right now. You know, I lied. I've got one more for you because you just, you sparked a thought on a conversation that I had the other day with Tark-Elashir, and it was this. and this is something I learned

and I'm assuming that you're very familiar with that hockey economically really relies on live gate, live attendance. They don't have that right now. If they can't have that in the upcoming 2021 season, 2020, 2021 season, that there's the possibility that there won't be a season. A, do you agree with that and then B, how devastating could that be

to certain franchises moving forward in terms of viability? I do agree with it. I don't think they are going to come back and play a full 82-game season or even a 70-game season if they can't have some semblance of fans in the building. I think that that is essential for things like travel

and aspects of that that cost a lot of money is you've got to have some of those costs covered at some point. And they are the most gate-reliant league in sports. I think their wager in setting up December 1st as a return to play date for the next season with the caveat that it could be delayed a month. Is there hope that, you know, there's more progress made on treatments and potential vaccines for COVID, but also their hope that other leagues will have had fans back at their games by that point. Now, we don't know if that's going to be the case or not.

You have more and more teams saying no fans. You have more and more sports delaying until the spring. So we'll see what happens on that. But, you know, behind the scenes, all these teams do have, task force and all kinds of people modeling and game. This goes back to, I mean, I said a story on this in March or April on the San Jose Azarks already modeling what their revenues look like based on how many fans they could let into the building.

So every team right now is in the process of figuring out what to do for next year, but it's ultimately going to come down to what the NHL decides to do for next year. And behind the scenes, there's a lot of skepticism about playing 82 games. But there isn't a lot of skepticism about them playing another season. So hopefully it works out, but I'll say that it is sort of one of those things that you have to keep an eye on. And I think you have to definitely keep an eye on other sports in this case to see what they're doing. Yeah, absolutely. I always enjoy catching up with you.

I really appreciate it. Stay well. Stay healthy. And hopefully we can talk down the road if the caps keep moving forward, even if they don't. It's always good to catch up with you in hockey. Thanks, Greg, so much. Anytime, man. Thanks.

Greg Wischinsky, everybody, senior NHL writer at ESPN, at Wysh, W-Y-S-H-Y-N-S-K-I on Twitter. He's always been one of my favorite guests. It's very interesting. I think we've talked about this before, maybe with Tommy, maybe with somebody else. A lot of the hockey guys are phenomenal radio guests. They have always been some of my favorites,

and it's not my favorite sport. but Wasinski's always been great. Joe Beninati's always been one of my favorites. Craig Lachlan's phenomenal as a hockey analyst. Guys that cover the team like Brian McNally and others have been great. Tark El Bashir, phenomenal on hockey. I know I'm forgetting some people here, but some of our hockey conversations on radio and on the podcast over the years

have actually been my favorite, even though of the four major sports, it's my least favorite, although I really do like playoff hockey. And it is, it's felt like playoff hockey watching it on TV anyway here over the last few nights. All right, that's it for the day. I want to remind everybody about Window Nation, great opportunity to get Windows 86690 Nation. WindowNation.com mention me free estimate, no risk, and you're going to get 50% off with deferred payments for two years. All right, have a great weekend. I am on vacation. Yes, again, next week. We've got to get in all that vacation time before football season starts. If anything happens significant, I'll be in to do a show or two. And I may be in to do a show or two with Tommy anyway. So I'll keep you posted on Twitter at Kevin Shee in DC as to when we'll have a show. I'm guessing right now no show on Monday.

unless there are big events from over the weekend. So stay well, stay safe, enjoy the weekend, and we will talk soon.