The Kevin Sheehan Show - Daron Payne's Future in DC

Episode Date: April 27, 2022

Kevin opened the show with his reaction to something Ron Rivera said about the upcoming draft and the quarterbacks in it. Ben Standig was on the show with some breaking Daron Payne news. Chris Knoche jumped on to talk NBA Playoffs.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Chean Show. Here's Kevin. Two guests on the show today. Ben Standing will be on the show today. He broke some news earlier this morning related to Duran Payne.

And then following Ben, we'll talk to Chris Nakke about the NBA playoffs the day after Brooklyn was swept out of the first round by Boston. Don't fret Nets fans. Kyrie Irving and Kevin Durant, according to Kyrie last night. will general manage the team back to contention. Before we get started with something that Ron Rivera said in this press conference yesterday, which I want to talk about, I want to mention to you something I mentioned last week, and that is the PGA tour is back in the area.

The Wells Fargo is going to take place at Avenel in Potomac, May 2nd through May 8th. And there's a proam on Wednesday, and there's an opportunity for you if you're a big golfer, along with three others, put together a foursome, and you'll get to play in the proam with a professional player on the front nine, a professional player on the back nine. The cost is $12,500 for the entire foursome. That's a bargain. Most of these proam forcums go for like 30 grand, $12,500 for you and three of your buddies to play in the proam on Wednesday, May 4th at Avenel.

in Potomac. You get a lot of other things, too. You get tickets for the weekend. You get a package that includes the Tuesday night pairings party. And all of this benefits the salute military golf association. The SMGA provides rehab golf programs, experiences, and family golf opportunities

for post-9-11 wounded war veterans in an effort to improve the quality of life for these Americans. American heroes. If you're interested, DM me on Twitter at Kevin Shee in DC, direct message me, and I will connect you with the right people associated with the SMGA to get this done. Again, May 4th, Pro Am, you and three of your friends with two pros, a pro on the front nine, a different pro on the back nine. $12,500 is a bargain to participate in one of these proams. If you're interested, DM me, and I will connect you with the right people.

Yesterday, Ron Rivera and Martin Mayhew held a pre-draft press conference. Now, much of it was kind of repetitive. You know, they updated the status and health of guys like Curtis Samuel and Chase Young. And all seems well right now. They both discussed the fact that they didn't think that the team would end up with just six draft choices, which is what they have right now. They don't have a pick in the third round. They don't have a pick in the fifth round right now.

They have two in the seventh. They both think that the draft is really strong in the middle of the draft. You know, there are more players in this draft because of the COVID year. So they believe that a lot of guys that, you know, as an example, may have been, you know, a third round pick in a normal draft. You might be able to get them in the fourth round. So they think the middle rounds are very strong and they have six picks, but they both alluded to the fact that,

they would try to acquire more picks by trading back in some round to pick up more picks in this draft. Ron Rivera complimented Kyle Smith on the job that he did in a very tough environment in 2020 during COVID for that draft. But I want to play something for you that Ron Rivera ended the press conference with. He had just answered in long form a question about the quarterback evaluations when the second. season ended. And he went into a lengthy discussion about how he hasn't, you know, put that much time into the quarterback position in the off season as the team's head coach since the Cam Newton year. And he talked about how when they drafted Cam in 2011, he watched every single game and every single snap that Cam played, including his junior college tape from Blinn College before he

ended up at Auburn. And that he, with the quarterbacks in the draft this year, had watched six to seven games each of all of the guys. And he went on and on about how, you know, they had really done their homework and he had been intimately involved in doing the homework on all the quarterbacks. And then, you know, they made the deal for Carson Wentz and his focus changed. So there was a follow-up question that basically was the final one asked at the press conference. And it was a question essentially that said all that homework that you did on the quarterbacks, did it help you get ready for the draft? I want you to listen carefully to what his answer was.

It does because you have a frame of reference. You feel pretty good about them. You really do. And there were several of them that, you know, you like. And, you know, in my minds, I have a guy that I would think about, you know, that if we were still in that position that I would most certainly consider early. Well, that was revealing, don't you think? Rivera might say that's interesting, not important.

but that was revealing and interesting. Ron Rivera told you in that soundbite at the end of the press conference yesterday that there is a quarterback that they have a high grade on. There is a quarterback in this draft that they like. Quote, and in my mind's eye, I have a guy that I would think about, that if we were still in that position, I would most certainly have considered early, closed quote. Still in that position, meaning if they were still looking for a

quarterback if they hadn't made the Wence trade and most certainly would have considered early, I think, his first round. If they didn't have a quarterback and there's a guy that they really like, the odds are the guy is Malik Willis, that's my opinion. And to take Malik Willis, you would have had to take him in the first round, more likely than not. He told you there's a guy in his draft that they have a high grade on. So that gets us back to the conversation that we had yesterday on the pie.

about this story that football outsiders wrote as they identified the biggest needs for all 32 teams. And when it came to Washington, they said quarterback. And the reason they said quarterback is they said, Wenz's stopgap, and the commanders need to act like it. If they see a quarterback fall to them at 11 and they've got a first round grade on them, they should strike. If a quarterback with a second round grade is there in the second round, they should strike. We don't don't think they will, but it's what they would do if they were honest about what Wentz is, closed quote. Now, yesterday I said, if there's not a quarterback that they like, well, the conversations,

you know, moot. If they don't like any quarterback, if they don't view a quarterback of having a big time upside, then you don't do it. You don't do it just for the sake of doing it, but Ron revealed that there is a quarterback that they like, that they would have taken early if they didn't make the trade for Carson Wentz. So that gets us to this. The trade's done. There's nothing you can do about it. But you still have to keep your long term in mind. Wence is a stopgap, people. If he weren't, they would have restructured his contract. The hope is that one year he's able to give them a significant upgrade

over what they've had and that he starts to reach the potential that he showed back in 20, 2016 and 2017. I don't believe that that's possible. I think that, you know, or I don't believe it's probable. If it were probable, he'd still be in Indy. He'd still be in Philadelphia. He was available because two teams didn't think that he was capable of reaching that point anymore.

I think Carson Wentz's best for this year is to play like a top half of the league quarterback, like middle of the pack, 16 to 18 type of starter. And so if that's the case, many of you would say, well, you can't spend number 11 or even a second rounder on anything other than to support him with good players. Because if you get a top half of the league, Guy Sheen, you can compete if you have a good team around him. That's true. But to what end? Nine wins, wild card? Like, the long term has to be trying to find the franchise quarterback that will set you up.

for sustained success. That is not Carson Wentz. So if you don't have that player, you should be always thinking about how to find that player. And the draft is one of those ways to think about it. Not if you don't like any of the quarterbacks, but if you do like a quarterback and you think Malik Willis has huge upside, you don't worry about ruffling feathers.

You don't worry about the opportunity to give that quarterback another weapon by taking another quarterback that might not play. You have to roll the dice on somebody that you really feel strongly about. That's my opinion. I think if they've got a first round grade on Malik Willis, that they should try to trade back and take them. Trade back with Baltimore. Trade back with, you know, you can't go back too far or you won't have a chance.

They're not going to do this. I understand that. I think they should. I agree with football outsiders. and the fact that Ron Rivera revealed yesterday that there is a quarterback that they like and they would have considered early had they not acquired Carson Wentz, then they're going to be at risk down the road of watching a guy like Malik Willis go to Pittsburgh and blow up into a big-time quarterback and they had the opportunity.

And they liked him if that's the guy. I want to play one other quick soundbite for you. Thorneisdrum covers the draft in the NFL for NBC Sports. I recorded an interview with him just moments ago that I'm going to play in its entirety on my radio show tomorrow. Thor does a big board of 500 players every year, and he ranks them 1 to 500 for the draft, and then he puts a pro-comp next to their name.

I've had him on the radio show before he's really good. Again, I'm going to play the entire end. interview on the radio show tomorrow morning, but I want to play you this one part where he tells you who the number one player on the board for him is and why? Yeah, the number one player on my board is Malik Willis. The reason why is because he has a quasi-precedented skill set that he's bringing into the NFL. I've only seen it one other time at the quarterback position. That's Michael Vick.

I comp him to a right-hand of Michael Vick. I saw the guy going to Blacksburg as a 17-napp point underdog with no NFL talent around him and upset Rodriguez-Sec, basically single-handed. I've seen him beat Syracuse. I've seen him beat coastal Carolina. Again, the two will speak for themselves. The athleticism is absolutely ridiculous. He's going to be a top-five scrambler in the NFL of all time,

and he's going into the NFL with one of the top three arm strength in the NFL currently. Josh Allen's the only guy, I think, that has arm strength analogous to him right now. So you're just talking the physical tools. They're insane. And then as far as the accuracy thing, yes, right now he struggled sort of with the easy throws. You know, I'm talking, you know,

over the middle stuff in the intermediate area. But if you talk about like the NFL throws, 10 to 19 yards outside the hash towards the sidelines, he's the most accurate quarterback in this class. He also had more than 20% of his throws last year were 20 plus yards downfield. He's one of the most accurate quarterbacks in the class of that, too. And you look at the last decade,

only Lamar Jackson had an analogous rushing output with him for a non-option quarterback. He's going to bring that into the league, too. So it's both a thrower and a running back. It's just a really high-octane skill set he's bringing into the NFL. The most optimistic review of Malik Willis that I have heard in this draft season, the entire interview with Thorneisstrom tomorrow morning on the radio show, comped him to Michael Vick, a right-handed version of Michael Vick. It's one person's perspective.

Take it for what it's worth. If he's right, then I would imagine other NFL teams see it, and he'll be gone by the time Washington selects at 11 anyway. If he's right and other teams don't see it, then there will be several teams that will regret not turning his name in on a card when they're on the clock on Thursday night. Again, one person's guess on Malik Willis, but on his 500-player big board,

he's got Willis number one overall. Ben Standing next with his news on Duran Payne. Duran Payne is not going to be signed to a long-term contract extension. According to Ben, he'll have all the details. I'll tell you, one of the first things that I thought about is you got to trade them. If you're not going to sign them long-term, trade them, try to get something for him. But I don't think that's Ron's mindset right now. Ron really thinks this upcoming season is a very important one for him.

We'll get to Ben next right after these words from a few of our sponsors. All right. All right. As he does often on this podcast is Ben Standing, who of course writes for the athletic, has his own podcast at Standing Room Only. And you can follow Ben on Twitter at Ben Standing. Ben is really one of the best beat reporters

when it comes to the Washington commanders in town. And I asked Ben to come on the show because he broke some news earlier this morning. I talked a little bit about it in the open of the podcast, Ben, but just share with everybody what you've learned about Duran Payne. Yeah, that basically what I was told is they are not expected to pick up, they're not expected to extend his contract. He's playing on the final year of his rookie deal. They picked up that option.

last year, so we knew at least in a minimum that was happening. But the question was, you know, was this going to be a Jonathan Allen situation where, you know, at some point here during the summer, they come to terms on a new deal. But, of course, as we've talked about for a long time, when you have the four defensive linemen picked in the first round, it's just not realistic to extend all of them, especially when you, you know, now have a quarterback who's getting paid a lot of money. And frankly, when the defense, you know, was underwhelming, as it was last year. and Duran Payne has always felt like the guy who would be sort of the odd man out,

which isn't to say he's a bad player at all. He's good, but, you know, they already pay an out and to the defensive end are more of a premium position. So, yeah, so what I've gathered is that they are not expected to extend him, and it does lead to some questions about the draft in terms of what does this mean. we know they need defensive line depth anyway, but could that potentially motivate them even a little bit more? Because at some point, even if it's for next year, they've got to figure out our placement plan. If he does not come back. Do you think it's more about they just can't pay them all?

Or is there something specific about him where he got picked out of all of them as the guy they're going to move on from? Or a combination of both. Sure, sure. I mean, it's a good question, and I don't definitively have an answer for that. I mean, you know, in this modern NFL, right, pass rush ability is huge. Now, some of his past rush numbers last year were pretty good. He had he almost doubled, I think, his career high with a quarterback hit. He had four and a half stack, which is not a huge number.

But for a guy like him, that's not a bad number, he had a career high in tax. hope overall. And, you know, again, I think under normal circumstances, we'd be talking about him in a more, you know, we would just be talking about him more. I just think that when you look at the other two spots, you know, the edge rushers, as we see in this, you know, for agency this year, those guys get paid, right?

And because there's a reason they get paid because the guys who get after the quarterback or what you need on your team. And then, you know, having Allen, you know, I thought last year if you had said to me, going into the John Allen negotiation, are you keeping Alan or pain if you're only keeping one? I honestly might have leaned pain, but Alan came up first.

He's also, you know, seems like a little bit more of a locker room leader. Pain is much more of a quiet guy, certainly when he talks to reporters. So, you know, they did what they did, and obviously it looks like a pretty good move. So, you know, I don't know for sure if there's anything specific as to why him beyond just sort of that circumstantial evidence. but, you know, it feels like that aspect of it is probably as much of the factor as anything at this point. Yeah, I'm just wondering why if this was the plan. And I kind of agree with you last year, although I never thought that they were going to get rid of John Allen. And I thought in many ways when you and I had these conversations previously, that more likely than not,

they were going to figure out a way to keep all of them that were really good, that they really thought had promise. And I think in many ways, Duran Payne's upside is higher than even John Allen's. John Allen is a pro. He's a proven pro. He's a proven, you know, all pro kind of player. I think Payne has always had the ability potentially to be a top three or four player at his position. Now, he hasn't been that. And maybe they know that's not what he will ever be, potentially that's part of the issue here. But if they knew that or they know that now, why not try to trade him now? Why shouldn't they be trying to trade him rather than let him play next year and get nothing for him when he goes to free agency?

Sure. And, you know, I looked into that and, you know, I just kind of wanted to sort of focus on what I could, you know, felt most comfortable writing about. But I guess I would just say this, right? So we know with the compensatory draft pick situation, third round pick is what they would logically get, you know, most likely. Because there's a few different factors, like what they sign of their players themselves or things like that. But third round pick would be kind of what you're aiming at, right? So in order to trade him, you've got to get more than that. Now, of course, can you get more of this than that?

I think that is what is perhaps unclear because if you're the other team, it isn't just your trading the pick. you've got to then find him. Yeah, you got to pay him. And, you know, he also has to agree to want to do that. And I think that's got to be as much of a factor as anything. So, you know, like logically, you know, if you're going to say that somebody is not, if the plan is to not extend somebody, then logically you should be considering these other factors. But I just don't think it's a simple, like I thought some people tweeting, you know, back at me or

commenting on my tweet about this that, well, you know, trade him for a first round pick or whatever. Like, you know, I just don't think that. My guess is that's not an option. Otherwise, we probably would be having it. We would have probably had that happen by now or we'd hear more about something like that. So I think that's the thing, right? At the baseline, you're going to get a third round pick, and plus you get the guy for this year. And by the way, I mean, just to be clear, just because they're going to extend him doesn't mean he couldn't come back next year.

He could sign a new deal. But we don't know what's going to happen. Obviously, you know, does Montess sweater Chase Young, you know, have a second, you know, have another disappointing season leading to a potential change and how to organization fuse them. What if Terry McCorn thing just blows up? I mean, they would fully be another receiver, but maybe, you know, you're not spending $23 million a year annually on a guy.

So it's not like the Durant Payne is definitely out. Long term, it's just if you're not going to extend them, then you're exposing him to the free agency market. and, you know, it seemed like a sign to say you're willing to let the guy go. So that could be another reason to say, well, but when else we're going to get more than we think here with this compensatory pick, there's no reason to trade him because, you know, it's not like we're saying we need to get rid of the guy.

We just the circumstances are where they are. Yeah. I think that's part of the conversation. I mean, as you bring it up, it's true. It's not like Kirk Cousins where they were pretty much guaranteed to get a first rounder, probably number two, overall had they dealt with the 49ers prior to the 2017 season. It's not a Trent Williams or Brandon Sheriff's situation either.

Duran Payne isn't really at that level, although I think his upside in some cases might be higher than two of the three players mentioned. But yeah, I think that makes sense. And you're right. Just because they're not picking up the option doesn't mean that if he has a great season or if somebody else doesn't have a great season, that things couldn't change next year. but you've just put yourself at great risk at losing a great player for nothing more than a compensatory pick. That's the issue. And you always have before the season starts and before the trade deadline next year if somebody gets desperate as a possibility.

What else? Go ahead. And by the way, just to stay on that front, like as we've discussed over and over again, like one reason why it felt to me obvious from the beginning of the off season that they were going to go for a veteran quarterback over a rookie was the idea that they got to win this year. that Ron Rivera is motivated and focused on a turnaround this year. Well, having to Ron Payne is potentially a really good thing. I mean, as bad as the defense was last year, we still assume that those four guys on the line could have this thing be a top-10 defense next year.

Obviously, you know, a lot of other factors. But if they all play at their expectations, that's a really good thing. So having that guy, you know, having that guy help you this year is good, even if there are bigger picture, longer-term, you know, considerations out there. Yeah, and I referred to that in the open. Just, you know, this all in for kind of year three, it's an important year in having the best cast out there possible to give yourself a great chance, even if it means it's not the right long, long term decision. All right, we are two days away from the draft. What are you hearing?

Yeah, so as part of the Duran Payne story, I dropped, I did like a whole sort of emptying the notebook situation on that. athletic and you know there's a lot in there you know i like to ask questions beyond this team and part of understanding what's potentially available at 11 is trying to get a grasp on what's happening one to 10 and as you know you we've discussed and sure you've had other guests say the same like this is about as confusing as the top 10 as there can be for years so as much as like the conversation seems to be you know drake london tile hamilton you know a couple of the same names we hear over and over again are they even going to be there and if they're not you know kind of where do you go? The Drake London momentum seems pretty real, but not just for 11.

There are a lot of people now mocking him to the Falcons at 8 as the first receiver off the board. If that would happen and they wanted to stay receiver, I'm not saying that I've heard this necessarily, but it seems to be a lot of momentum out there that the answer would be Chris Oliva instead of Garrett Wilson, which, you know, from a potential standpoint, that seems like an odd choice. It doesn't mean that they're not comparable players, but it just feels like what Wilson can offer would be more has a higher ceiling, but it doesn't necessarily feel that's where a lot of the reporting is on that. But that's the thing.

I think I need to actually look at this. I keep talking about this, but I don't look at this. I think Washington arguably has the worst scenario of any team in the draft when it comes to the amount of options they have. I mean, a lot of teams, you look at the Ravens at 14, they could go, offensive tackle, defensive tackle, pass rusher, cornerback, maybe even a couple other things. And like nobody would say that those were bad picks based on the likely players available. What Washington basically can go wide receiver or defensive back, and it's really maybe even only safety,

but defensive back, that's kind of it. And I think that it just has made their whole situation a bit more limiting than I think they would want it to be, but it is kind of where it at, where it's at. I think you and I are both convinced, I don't know how much they desperately want a receiver, but every time we all talk about it, that's what we keep discussing because there's just no other real positional options out there for them,

unless, hypothetically, you did move with Duran Payne, and now a sudden Jordan Davis from Georgia is sitting there. But, you know, other than that, you know, I wish I had something more exciting to say than Drake London if he's available, but, you know, that's kind of how it feels to me with, Kyle Hamilton is a big wildcard. If he's there, I guess it's more like I think I would probably rather take him than one of the other receivers,

but I'm not, I'm just not sure if they think that way. Okay, but what about the D. Ron Payne thing? Does it mean that D. Lineman is in play? Could a Jordan Davis be in play at 11 from Georgia? I don't, I guess from a logic standpoint to me, it doesn't seem to make that much sense to have Jordan Davis. and keep Duran pain. I mean, Jordan Davis is sort of,

would be a legit replacement type because he's a guy that may be viewed as more run-stuffer than pass-risher, right? So there's no variance there if you're playing both of them. At least Matt Ionitis, if you would come in, he's offering you a pass-rush ability that pain didn't necessarily have.

Maybe he wasn't as good at all-around player, but he would at least give you that, right? He let him in Sacks back in 2019. I think Davis, to me, would be, if you know you're going to move on from pain like now, then going for a Davis could make some more. But like I said, I don't necessarily get that that didn't play. I'm just noting that like that's what it was here.

That's kind of where we're at this. This is not enough options for them at 11 in terms of positional needs. If they were to trade down, of course, then that's a whole different story. Now all of a sudden there's more interior offensive linemen in play. Some of the linebackers could be in play, and you still would have receiver, defensive back there as well. So, I mean, there's a lot of reasons to trade down. One of them is just opening up the board.

But, yeah, I mean, in theory, you're getting the better player at 11. All right. You know, a little bit more than 48 hours away from it. What's your guess right now at 11? I mean, I guess you got, is Drake London going to Atlanta? Because, like I said, that's now all of a sudden where a lot of people, the momentum. Well, that's part of what you're guessing. Are you going to, is if he, you agree with me, right, that if he's available, that's the choice?

I do. I guess my hesitancy right now is, and, you know, at some point here, I have to put down the, put down the spreadsheet, stop looking at the box or have to go outside for a while, clear my head. But as I look at it right now, I'm, I guess I just keep thinking, I'm not as convinced about the Kyle Hamilton part of this because I just don't know exactly that everybody there is, he has, has the same mindset. of what he could do for this defense, and if the receiver, there's been so much focus on that. I guess I just keep getting stuck on, would you really take Chris Olav at 11?

And I'm not saying that would be a horrendous pick or anything. It just feels like he has a lower ceiling than the other guys. He's somewhat similar to what you already have in McCorn. That's what makes London so interesting because it's a completely different type of receiver. And even Wilson, you know, he's got more of the yards after the catch component than McCorn. So I just don't quite get the Olave anything for them, but it feels like if I was going

to do the mock draft based on what I think would happen, I feel like I would have to pick him, and I don't think I'm there yet. So I think that's my hesitancy with the Drake London part. If he's there at 11, I think that's the call. I just, you know, will he be there? I have no idea right now. All right, you're a two-time mock national draft champion. How close are you to having your mock first round nailed down? Oh. No chance. I mean, what I'm trying to do right now is like trying to like,

what are the picks that I feel regardless of the order? Without going, you know, 1 to 32, just where on the board do I feel most confident and then trying to fill in things around that? But, you know, like I said, even at the very top of the draft, you know, it's hard to know what's going to happen. Even if we buy the Trayvon Walker stuff at one and think Aidan Hutchinson goes two,

Houston could go in numerous directions at three, same with the chess at four, the Giants at five, and so on. Does Carolina take the quarterback? I'm kind of thinking no, but it doesn't mean it's possible. I mean, there's absolute reasons to think they could. And I have people kind of, I've been showing people my work-in-progress mock, and some people tell me I'm right on having no quarterbacks in the top ten, and others are yelling at me that I'm an idiot. We'll

No, the answer to your question is not very close. All right. We will talk before the draft on radio for sure. And we will, you know, have a better sense of what you're thinking in terms of the mock and who you're mocking to Washington at 11. I'm telling you right now you should subscribe to the athletic, just so you can read Ben's coverage of Washington. Thanks for doing this.

We'll talk on radio later in the week. can I add can I try out an NBA topic and if you want to cut this or just cut this but I have an NBA thought I can't talk about it anywhere else okay go ahead okay so obviously everybody's making a big deal about Ben Simmons not playing and then the

whole thing with the net you know just imploding they're losing a getting swept and Kyrie's whole kerry this year is a huge prop part of that of that reason do we think that we may it may be rest in peace player empowerment era as we know it based on these two things because I got to think you're the owner

are going to say, screw this. And the owner slash the league, that these guys have, like, hijacked the whole situation. And I think what they, what those two did in particular, they're very different than, like, LeBron's forcing themselves to the Lakers or Cleveland or whatever. Like, this feels like we may have reached the end of the player, Paramount Air, as we know it.

Yes. Tommy and I essentially said the same thing on the podcast yesterday. When these owners and players get together for the next, you know, CBA contract, it's going to be about situations like this and not allowing it to happen. They're not going to pay guys that go AWOL. They're just not going to do it anymore. Hey, speaking of that, I've got to go because Naki's coming up next

and he's got a tight deadline. So we'll talk later in the week. Thanks. The aforementioned Chris Naki coming up next. We'll talk some NBA playoffs with him right after these words from a few of our sponsors. If you want to bet the NBA playoffs, bet them at my bookie. Go to my bookie.com or my bookie.orgie.orgie. Use my promo code, Kevin D.C.

And they'll match your first deposit dollar for dollar all the way up to a thousand bucks. Hopefully you didn't have the Brooklyn Nets in round one. But on the flip side, you probably got some pretty good odds of the Celtics winning that series and a sweep. Joining us right now is my good friend Chris Nocki. on the podcast. Naki like me were, I think, among our group of friends, among the very few that are staying up and watching these NBA playoff games. I love this time of year. I know you do too, right? Yeah, I mean, it's so high level. And, you know, I think it's some of these games. You mentioned the Nets, Celtics. And I get that the Nets were swept. But it's probably in three of those

games. I thought you could cut the intensity with a knife, you know, the tension. It was just such great drama in those games. It really was. I talked about game one where Boston, you know, came back, or it was game two when they were down a bunch and they rallied and came back. And I talked about it the next day. I don't know in recent memory, college or pro, if I've heard a crowd like that one. I mean, the NBA crowds that go to these games are incredible, especially knocking some of the markets that don't have anything else like Salt Lake. And, you know, we've seen OKC and how they react, you know, in previous years.

But Boston was off the charts. And the intensity for the two games in Brooklyn. It was great. It's a different sport in the postseason. And, of course, the Boston hatred for all things, New York is a part of that as well. But, Kevin, I think that one of the reasons. why I've really been intrigued by these playoffs is, like you mentioned, there's new blood in this now with the Grizzlies, you know, with Memphis being in, Minnesota being in,

and the venues that they play in are like college arenas with the energy that they have. So I think that's been a part of the experience here, these first, you know, these first couple of weeks. And I get that first Boston, New York games still probably the best game of the playoffs that I've seen. but there have been a lot of really good games. You know, you're so right. And I think it's what people who are big college basketball fans, and then they watch the NBA in the regular season, and for whatever reason they don't give the NBA in the playoffs a chance.

The NBA in the playoffs in terms of atmosphere and intensity is, you know, equivalent, if not exceeding of what the, you know, best in college basketball has to offer during the regular season, with one big difference, and that is the skill level and talent is off the charts. I mean, you know, your whole life has been basketball, and you know how much I love it. I don't think I've, you know, and I'll be honest with you. I wasn't paying attention a lot to the regular season this year, in part because the Wizards were so bad.

I don't think that the skill level's ever been higher than it is right now. Yeah, I mean, I totally agree with you. And the level of athlete just gets better and better and better with training, you know, the advances in training and things like that. You know, with Jay Wright leaving college basketball, a friend of my sort of posed this, you know, he asked me, do you think Jay Wright's ever going to get back into coaching? And I said, I don't think he'll ever be a college coach again,

but he could very easily end up coaching the team in Philadelphia within the next year, too. And I get this question all the time. His follow-up question to me was, why would a really successful college coach want to go to the NBA? And, I mean, to me, the answer is as simple as you want to test yourself with and against the best players on the globe. And that's what they are. They're the best at their sport on the planet. And the level of play, you know, for the most part in the regular season,

I get people who hold home the NBA in January and February. but if those people aren't tuned in now, they're missing it because this is a completely different sport than the one that's played in January. You're exactly right. And I think there's another part to this, which I'm going to guess that you've thought about and talked about with people as well. And that is, you know, college now is just so much different. I think it's probably one of the reasons Jay Wright isn't coaching. But to deal with Transfer Portal and NIL, you know, it is coaching in the NBA is probably, probably easier than it is now in college basketball, even though recruiting was always a big part of it. But, you know, there was a story that broke just a little while ago

that Jay Wright isn't, you know, saying no to a future possibility in the NBA. And I wouldn't be surprised if it's 60 years old. He thinks the NBA would be easier. And now is the time for that challenge because of the Wild Wild West that college sports have become. Well, I think he's the ultimate players coach, for one. I mean, I think that league suits him. You know, colleges now have unfettered free agency. And the NBA, at least when you draft a guy,

you know you're going to keep him for what's the rookie deal, three, four years. And so it's not like a guy can get pissed at you, you know, after not playing for a week and then jump into a magical portal. It just doesn't happen like that in the NBA. So to your point, I think it is dramatically easier, and you don't have to recruit. It's basically basketball coaching. Now, you don't have all the prep time that a college coach would in terms of the ramp up to the season because the NBA is such a, what is it's a six-month, six, seven, eight-month endeavor,

eight months for the teams that get to the finals. But, yeah, I mean, back to the playoffs, Kevin. You know, somebody's going to get upset here. I'm not sure who it is. Phoenix needs to have Devin Booker back. Otherwise, they're susceptible. They're really mortal with him out. But the star turns of some of the young players, John Morant,

Desmond Dane, just on that team alone, there have been guys that I think most people don't even know who they are. And you watch these guys playing, you're like, where the hell did that guy come from? Yeah. You know, let's stick. with that right now because I was going to kind of, you know, turn the conversation to Kyrie and Ben Simmons, but we'll save that for the end. And we'll talk about the great basketball and the

great young players. I agree with you. Like, I mean, I loved John Morant last year, you know, and but this year, I think of all of the teams that are playing right now, and obviously this team needed Paul George to miss the, you know, the final playing game with COVID to even be here. But Brandon Ingram is unbelievable. I didn't think he was this good and this competitive. And the Lakers gave up on him. I know. You know, you look at the guys that the Lakers have let go over the last three, four,

five years. Ingram, you know, chief among them, you know, Ingram's one of a handful of guys like Jason Tatum, who are just positionless, they're long, they're lean, they handle, they shoot. You know, and guys like that, I mean, they don't fall off trees. To think that Ingram was out there and available. Now, obviously, got traded for a very good player in AD.

Right. But, man, things worked out for a friend of Orleans with that trade. Yeah. I mean, I, Devin Booker's not going to play tonight, or I'm sorry, in Game 5 tomorrow night, as far as the, you know, the latest on that is concerned. Actually, actually, I'm sorry, game 5. is tonight, you know, out in Phoenix. Do you think New Orleans can win this series?

I think, you know, they did a much better job on Chris Paul in the last game. Obviously, with Booker out, it comes down to what Paul is going to do for your team. In game three in New Orleans, I mean, he just dominated the fourth quarter. It was a pick and roll 101. I mean, they're just fabulous play after play after play and did it without a turnover, too. they handle them much better in game four. Those are the adjustments, you know, that you have to make the series.

You get to know the other teams so well when you're playing every couple of days that you do have to, you know, you do have to make some pretty subtle adjustments, and they did not let Paul beat him in that game. They contained him much better than they did in three. So I think, you know, New Orleans certainly has a chance. Of course, and I think one of the reasons

what Booker's not playing is, perhaps he's just not ready, but it might be one of those things, too, where they think, okay, well, you know, we're back at home. We have the home court advantage back. We can survive one more game without them. Maybe that's their thinking. But it's a lot more even now than it was. That's for sure. I mean, when Booker went out, Kevin, he had 31 in that game. I know. But it was a tight game. It was a tight game. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yep. So Tommy and I, the other day, I love doing this to him,

but I don't know if you heard the debate that, you know, Chris Mad Dog Russo had with Stephen A, where, you know, they were talking about Chris Paul being a top five point guard of all time. And Mad Dog was like, you know, you're insane. And he brought up Bob Coosie. And I told Tommy something that I told him two years ago when I watched this. Like two years ago on NBA TV, they had game seven of the 1962 NBA finals.

as it was broadcast on ABC, running on NBA TV. And the next day I came in and I told Tommy, I said, I just watch this. I just want you to know as much as I'm a big, you know, past, you know, and I recognize evolution, training, diet, the whole thing. But, you know, I'm a big guy that, big into, you know, Jordan is just as good as the guys today. And Carl Malone, you know, physically would match up with guys today, et cetera, et cetera.

but that 1962 final, DeMathas Varsity would have beaten either team by 30 points. I'm 100% convinced of it. Of course, Tommy loses his shit every time that happens. And he's like, well, you know, maybe Cousy, but not Russell or, or, or, or, and, you know, Walt wasn't in that game for, for, for the Lakers. It was game seven between the Lakers and the, but Elgin Baylor was. And I'm like, yeah, maybe Russell, but.

Let's be fair here. Like Jason Tatum and Kevin Durant, you know, they're the size or bigger than Bill Russell was. And he had to play center with his back to the basket. And I know he was an outrageous winner and outrageous competitor. But it really is, this argument is done all the time. You can't compare errors. They're just physically the players in the past wouldn't match up. Well, it is a fool's error, no question, to compare errors.

but I like to look at it like this. You know, Bob Coozy gets deified. You know, he was the first real great point guard, I guess. You got to give him that. You know, all he could do is play against the guys he could play against. You know, I mean, but if you took, give me like the sixth or seventh best point guard in the NBA. Give me, Damien Lillard, okay? Who might be at this point in time.

Maybe I don't know. Maybe now. Yeah. Yeah. So if you sent him back in time to that particular age and time, he would be the best player in the NBA. By miles. By miles, plural. I mean, he'd average 50 points again.

He'd average 50 plus. There's no doubt about it. Yeah. You know, the Chris Paul thing is interesting because I don't think Chris Paul is a top five point guard of all time. I like Chris Paul. I think Chris Paul has been a really, really. really good player. He's a first ballot Hall of Famer, no doubt. But sorry, you know, I can name five right off the top of my head, you know, Magic, Oscar, Curry, Isaiah, Stockton, you know, just off

the top of my head. And I haven't even gotten to Nash or Jason Kidd or even Westbrook, if you want to talk about him as a point guard. I think Chris Paul is a top 10 point guard of all time, not top five. And one of the reasons is, first of all, you know, he's kind of moved around a little bit, much of it to his doing, forcing his way into certain situations. He played in his first finals last year. He's only been to one conference finals other than that. I mean, you know, Jason Kidd went to three finals. Like this is a spot where if Kidd really is a top five point guard of all time, and I know he's late in his career, I understand that, but they're playing a team that is, that was 10 games below 500 during the regular season.

Chris Paul needs to be able to do enough to get them through this series until Devin Booker can come back. Yeah, I would agree with that. And I mean, I don't think he's a top five point card either. I said before the playoffs start, I don't know why I feel this way, but I feel like the way these playoffs are going to unfold. I'm not sure where it's going to happen. It may be just in the finals.

But I think that at the end of his career, Chris Paul will be one of those guys where they do they talk about you know you hate you hate to hang this handle on somebody the best player

never to have won a final I just I don't you know first of all he's obviously much closer to the end of his career

than he is in the beginning he's only got a few years left I just there's something about him he's so star-cross you know the one year

uh he was with Houston oh yeah yeah I mean he got hurt he got hurt He got hurt in the conference finals, right? And so, I mean, he, there's a little bit StarCross, a little bit unlucky.

I just don't get the vibe that it's in the cards for him. I, you know, I hope he gets his just as a dessert. It doesn't mean he's not a first battle at all-famer, but, you know, just it's kind of a vibe I've got on him. But he's got to get it done, man. I mean, there are the odds on. They had to be the betting favor. You know more about that. prohibitive favor going on this, right?

Yeah, into this series, yes. I mean, you know, people were certainly giving... I'm talking about it as in champs. I mean, it's hard to the playoff. Yeah, Phoenix in Milwaukee and Brooklyn and Boston, you know, and then it was like the one seed, who was Miami along with, you know, Golden State, who's a three-seat, et cetera.

By the way, what does it say about... We'll get to Brooklyn, Boston. I'm going to save that for the end, and Ben Simmons and Kyrie Irving, et cetera. but let's just say the Warriors do go on and make the finals and maybe win a title. Does that say anything about Kevin Durant or not? I don't know. You know, so here's to me what says as much about Kevin Durant as anything, Kevin.

And I'm looking at it through a different lens, I think. You know, all I know is when the U.S. Olympic team was in dire trouble in this past Olympics. There was one guy who completely carried them on his shoulders to win a gold medal. And that was Kevin Durant. I think that there's a reason why James Hardin wanted out of New York. I just think the whole playing with Kyrie involves so much baggage. And then after the game, I see Kyrie talking about how the fact that he's going to be working in lockstep with management to make the business about personnel. Get the fuck out of here. I mean, That's just lunacy to me.

Yeah, I think Kevin Durant's great. I love that you brought up the gold medal. Not only that, I mean, he carried Brooklyn last year in the playoffs with some of the greatest games of his career in that series against Milwaukee, you know, with that team being, you know, devastated by injury. But I do think, you know, sticking with Golden State here for a moment, I do think that they can win the whole thing. And I love watching them play.

And I know it's not, you know, Curry, Draymond, Clay, you know, with a couple of other players. I know what Wiggins means to that team. And they're a good, you know, they've got a good team, but I definitely think they can win the title. Do you agree? They absolutely can. And they play the way it's drawn up, the way it's imagined. I mean, if there's, you know, if there's real basketball, gods involved, they should. I mean, I just love the way they play.

They're so unselfish. They got a bunch of guys. They've got a lot of depth. And Draymond, I tell you what, I swear, I mean, he's got to be a complete pain in the after coach. But what a glue guy. I mean, I don't know in the history of the league, he's got to be one of those top four or five facilitators, defenders, you know, you talk about all the things he does for you.

It's remarkable what he's able to do still at his size. Don't you think Boston plays the right way, too? Yeah. And the other thing is about Boston, I was amazed at how physical they are. Oh, yeah. And it's a strong group of guys. Brown and Tatum have really matured physically. And they're playing a team now in Milwaukee, or they will be playing Milwaukee. That's going to be, they need five officials on the court for this game.

I mean, these guys, these are the two most physical teams in the league. completely gifted athletically. I mean, this is going to be a Donnie Brooke. I can hardly wait to see this year. I know, but after game one, I was expecting a very long series with Brooklyn. It didn't work out that way. I agree with you about Golden State.

I think Boston plays the way that we, you know, you and I and others like us, like to see the game played. I think Miami does. I think Miami does as well. But a team like Brooklyn does not. I mean, you know, there is, you know, strictly trying to get a matchup space to the floor, and we're going to go one-on-one, and we're going to let Kyrie and Durant, you know, break it down. I love the way they competed in this series.

I thought Kyrie ran out of gas. But I think that, you know, unless New Orleans pulls off the upset, the biggest shocker of this first round is that Brooklyn got swept. And by the way, I know the games are close. I know the games were close. But I do think that Boston proved over those four games to be. the better team, if not, you know, significantly better. Oh, clearly. Yeah, clearly. And also, as much as I love Durant and the player he's been and the player he is, I think Jason Tatum has eclipsed him in terms of what he can do.

And the reason the different differentiator is what he can do defensively. Durant's still kind of indifferent to the defensive end. And, you know, I mean, I think clearly Janus is the best player in the sport. But Tatum has got to be in the conversation for the guy behind him. Yeah, I agree with that. Tatum's top five definitely. Like if Boston wins the title, it continues the string of a top five player. You have to have one of them to win the title.

Who's the team, before we come back around and end on Simmons and Kyrie? Who's the team that, because I think there have been some surprises. Look, Toronto's back in that series to a certain degree. Who's being slept on right now of the teams that are still alive? I think Miami is. I agree. It's hard to say that about it one feed. But they do it without an All-Star.

I mean, and I know Butler and out of bio have been, you know, as born an all-star uniforms before, but I mean, they don't have that top five guy that you're talking about, but they're as well-coached as anybody is in the league, their heart-nosed, they've got a really nice edge to the way they play. And I just, I don't know how they get as little respect as they do, but that's, to me, that's the team that's being slept on. It's hard to believe for number one. I'm surprised to hear you say that about Butler.

Like you like him clearly, but you relegated him to kind of second-tier status in terms of the stars in the game. Or did I read that wrong? No, no, no. I think you read it right. What I think is his attitude, his edge permeates that whole team. And I think that's the most important quality. he's clearly a very good player. And I just think that he gives the team a lot more than the points and rebounds and assists that you see.

He gives him a real toughness. He's one of those guys, you know, much like some of the other guys we've already discussed, but can play multiple positions. He has no problem defending bigger guys. He gets into the paint. He's just a tough ombred, man. I mean, you don't have enough guys like him. Yeah, I think that you could make the case that,

through this first week and three days or whatever, he's been the best player in the postseason. I think Tatum's really close. Don't get me wrong. But Butler, you know, has been, I think he's shooting, I looked this up this morning, I think he's shooting 55% from the floor and averaging over 30 a game with like, you know,

eight rebounds and six assists somewhere in that neighborhood. I know they're not playing, you know, Brooklyn as Tatum has, and they're playing Atlanta, and that's different. But I love Jimmy Butler. Like I love him the same. way that I kind of love Kauai Leonard. I think he's a phenomenal two-way player. I think he does it his own way and it just, you know, it just works. I think he makes everybody else better. I miss Kauai, man. I miss Kauai in a big way. Yeah, me too. I would have loved to have seen

if Paul George hadn't missed that game and they had gotten in because I think they would have. There was some discussion that Kauai may have been back had they won a series. All that. Yeah. All right. So let's end with what Ben Stan and I were just talking about in the previous segment, which is, you know, Ben basically said, and Tommy and I talked about it yesterday, Ben basically said rip as in rest in peace to sort of the player empowerment era, not necessarily enforcing trades and trying to team up on teams together, but that what Ben Simmons pulled, what Kyrie pulled, and you mentioned the quote, for those that missed it, Kyrie Irving after the game last night,

you know, started talking again about how he and Kevin Durant are going to co-manage this team, as if he's got GM next to his name after missing 50 whatever games this year. I think the guy is completely out to lunch. But they can't allow this, right? The NBA can't allow what Ben Simmons did to two teams this year. Yeah, I had this conversation with an NBA guy just yesterday, and he said the exact same thing. He said, look what the, look what the,

you know, the Lakers, what happened to the Lakers and the Nets this year, you know, um, in terms of two teams that indulge their stars. And, uh, and he kind of, the same guy kind of openly mocked the fact that, uh, I don't know if you saw the LeBron Instagram,

uh, uh, video where he was talking about, he was talking about, I'll be back in the playoffs next year. But he was doing it from like Cancone or some I want somewhere. I have no idea where it was. Yeah. You know, I don't, uh,

You know, he's got the money. Go ahead and do it, man. But I agree with Ben. I think that these things are sort of cyclical. And I do think that the players are the management can wrestle. You know, I don't know what you do about Kyrie. To me, Kyrie is a, he's just incredible talent. I mean, just a remarkable, remarkable talent.

But the rest of it, you've got to wonder if the juice is worth the squeeze. I don't think it is. And I don't know, you know, and there was some speculation I saw Stephen A was talking about the fact that Guy Reeves considering, you know, basically bailing on his, you know, he wants to re-up and sign that Super Max deal. I don't know how you do that. I don't know how you lay out that money for a guy like that with this kind of baggage. Yeah, well, I think it's a player option on that next year.

So I don't know. I think that's right. I could be wrong about that. contract through 26, I believe. Yeah, I think Kyrie's a different situation. Kyrie's incredibly selfish. Kaii's incredibly lacking in self-awareness, clearly, and delusional as to, you know, how smart he is and how, you know, how much he can contribute to sort of roster management and the general manager's role, the coach's role. Remember, they didn't really want a coach. They wanted Steve Nash.

I actually don't blame Steve Nash for any of this, although I really didn't see a good coach in this particular series, you know, in terms of making adjustments. But, you know, he didn't handle roster management. He, you know, didn't have Kyrie for most of the year. They traded hard and away for Ben Simmons. I mean, it's been a shit show there for two years. Yeah, and the Lus and Joe Harris was a really big loss for them. You know, I mean, he, he's just, he's not just a shooter. He's a tough kid.

He, you know, he'll work on defense. Ultimately, Kevin, they didn't cover, they didn't cover enough to win. And for, I mean, obviously they've got great offensive talent. But in the NBA playoffs, man, well, these guys playing as hard as they are, and they're playing hard as hell, you've got to defend better than they defended. They didn't do it at any position. and Harris would have helped him on that as well as taking pressure off with, you know, shooting jumpers. I mean, he's lights out.

All right. Last one. Finals prediction. Who plays whom in the finals and who wins it? I think it's a repeat. I think Milwaukee's the best team going on right now. Obviously, they're going to have to play really well to win these next two series to get there. But they're good enough.

With or was that Chris Middleton? Drew Holliday is playing at a great level for them. The freak is the freak. I think Golden State gets through on the other side. I think Golden State ends up in a seven-game series. I think Golden State wins the West. So you got Milwaukee Golden State with Milwaukee winning back-to-back titles. That was when you said repeat.

Yeah. Who do you like? I think Boston's got a chance to win this next series. I think that there's a certain. First of all, I think he's doing a phenomenal job coaching them. I think they're so unselfish. They have a top three player in the game right now. So does Milwaukee, obviously.

And they've got, you know, you talked about, you know, Dremon. In so many ways, Marcus Smart is kind of a version of Dremont, except a better, you know, score if you really need him to be. I love his game. He's, in many ways, the heart and soul of that group right now. I like Boston Golden State. But I'd go with either one of them. I mean, I think either one of them would be a great matchup.

But I really want to see Golden State make a run here and get to the finals. I just, you know, watching Curry play is as much fun as watching anybody play. Great. Agreed. No argument at all. Thank you for doing this. Hope you're well. Anytime, man.

Thank you. See you. All right. That's it for the day. Thanks to Naki. And thanks to Ben back tomorrow.