The Kevin Sheehan Show - DC Trade Day

Episode Date: July 30, 2021

Kevin with a quick open on the Nats and Wizards followed by his conversations with Ben Standig/The Athletic from Richmond on the Washington Football Team, Mark Zuckerman (MASN & Nats Chat Podcast) on the Nats, and Chase Hughes/NBC Sports Washington on the Wizards. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Chean Show. Here's Kevin. So I am not too happy right now because the podcast should have been out earlier, but it isn't because I wasn't recording a significant segment of the show. I don't know how that happened. But whatever.

We carry on. And I'll do it again. was, you know, probably a much too long opening segment anyway, leading into an interview with Ben Standing from Richmond on the football team, an interview with Mark Zuckerman on everything that happened with the Nats, and an interview with Chase Hughes from NBC Sports Washington on everything that happened with the Wizards. It was yesterday one of the craziest days. It was not your typical July 29th, that's for sure. And this is. business, July 29th is usually a make-it-up day. I mean, make it up, you know, try to come up

with something that interests, you know, at least a few people. June and July are always the grind-it-out days in this business, as much as this business can be grinding it out. But, you know, in a town where football season is really the high season, June and July and August, to a certain degree can be difficult and you've got to be sort of creative. No creativity needed today. What a day yesterday was. You know, there's that saying about suspense and drama that it can be, you know, terrifying or frightening, but, you know, you hope it lasts, something like that. I forget how it goes. It's something like that. Boy, I hope yesterday can last because that was nuts yesterday. And it was great and it was interesting. And the only thing missing from yesterday was, you know,

when Adam Schefter breaking news, Washington and Houston are talking about a trade for Deshawn Watson. Can you imagine? I want to go through Nats and Wizards here quickly. I'll give you my quick thoughts because I'm going to shorten this opening segment from where it was before when I wasn't recording and then we'll get to the interviews. I'm going to start with the nationals because the nationals were in sell-off mode. And that really happened because of what happened last weekend. I believe, and I could be wrong, but I believe that if the Nats had gone into Baltimore and swept the Orioles,

they may have had a different mindset this week. They would have been more focused on, we're going to get some players back, we're going to get healthy, we're still in the race here, it's a bad division. But losing to the American League's worst team in the Orioles was the breaking point. And if they were 50-50 on being a seller, it was at that point, you know, 100 to nothing. That was a bad series and you're not contending.

And even though you're in a bad division, if you lose to Baltimore three straight times, you've got your answer. In most sell-offs, you know, you don't really know for a while who got the better of the deal. I think there are a lot of people that really follow farm systems and understand prospects and look at rankings. But you really don't know,

because these deals bring back prospects, and prospects don't provide answers until they're not prospects anymore. The Nats did something yesterday that I think a lot of people were expecting, and then they did something that I don't think a lot of people were expecting. The sell-off of Shurzor-Hudson, Hand, and Schwerber was expected, and really, it makes sense. Galdi was on with us the other day, and he mentioned that they've got the worst farm system in Major League Baseball, and they had to replenish that farm system. And if they weren't going to be contenders, they had to move on from some of these people and be a major seller. And they had assets that were attractive to contending teams. Scherzer, Hudson, Han, Schwerber had contracts that were expiring. You can't lose those players

to free agency when there's an opportunity to get something back for them in a season that is not producing a contending team. That was always the problem right with the football team. You know, the Kirk Cousins thing. You know, as much as I loved Kirk, and still do and think it was a big mistake the way they handled him at the same time. I was a huge advocate and the first one screaming, trade him. Once they lowballed him for a second straight time and it became clear he didn't want to be here either, you had to trade him to San Francisco for the number two overall pick. But they didn't because they were petty and all of these other things.

But I'm not going to get hung up on that. Sort of the same thing with Sheriff, not enough foresight on Brandon Sheriff. If you've got to move on from key assets that can bring back future assets when you know it's not going to work out, you've got to have that kind of vision and be aggressive. So kudos to Mike Rizzo for being a seller. It didn't make any sense not to be yesterday. However, you know, selling off players with expiring contracts and in some case veteran players like Max Scherzer who are, you know, I guess past their prime. even though he's still great. You should be careful, you should be really careful,

about trading great players when you have them, even if that great player is going to cause, you know, a big decision a few years down the road about whether or not to pay him potentially hundreds of millions of dollars. So that's where we go now, and that is to Trey Turner. This was the one yesterday that many Nats fans had a problem with. The issue here is that Turner is a great player. He's not a good player. He's a great player.

He's 28 years old. He's a top 10 to 15 player in baseball, a top 2 to 3 shortstop in the game. He was a part of a World Series team. He's a popular player among fans. But more importantly, he's a great player. And if you're even going to rebuild off of a sell-off, don't you want Soto and Turner and, you know, Corbin and maybe one or two others to be a part of that? Galby told us the other day that Turner, you know, by the time he would sign that new business, big deal would be entering his age 30 season. I think it was 30, Galdi said. And Galdi said,

you know, that's a big risk. You know, he may be exiting his prime at that point. And I trust Galdi on baseball. That's his thing, man. He knows it. You know, and so I love, you know, listening to him talk baseball. I think it's more than that, though. And, you know, I had a conversation with somebody last night. And I think that it's more than just, you know, being really smart. to deal Turner because you're not going to pay him because you think that actually at age 30, he is going to be on the downside of his career. I think it's the money more than the combo of the money and the risk of overpaying a great player whose best years may be behind him.

I think the learners off a tough 18 months of COVID losses, which every MLB team suffered, baseball is a sport in which live gates important and baseball took an absolute pounding due to COVID. But in the Nats case it was even more. They missed out on a huge

financial windfall that would have come the year and really the years after winning their first world series. And the learners, yes, they are wealthy. They are billionaires. They have the money. But that's not the way they run their businesses. They run their businesses

as stand-alones, and each standalone has to pencil out, down to the nickel. You know, their personal wealth doesn't play into their teams or their businesses' financial P&Ls. So we can argue as to whether or not they should have kept Turner and paid him, but if the answer was going to be no, for whatever the reasons were, and I do think that the COVID, you know, top-line revenue hit, which was more major for Washington than any other team in baseball, if their answer was going to be no or not paying him, then they did the right thing by moving on from him.

It hurts that this team won the World Series less than two years ago and now is a shell of itself. Scherzer Turner Hudson gone. Rendon was gone right from the jump. Strasberg's injury could be career ending. But, you know, sports are funny, man. You know, they still are going to trot out and field a team and that team's still going to have Juan Soto on it.

And it's a terrible division. Watch them, you know, go on a big run here and get themselves back into it. But, you know, more likely than not, this is the beginning of a rebuild. And a team that has really been a contender for, you know, going back to 2012, more likely than not, isn't going to be for a year or two. Minimum. But much more on this with Mark Zuckerman coming up in about 20 minutes. The other big story, obviously, last night, were your Washington Wizards in trading Russell Westbrook.

Bravo Tommy Shepard. I don't know that Tommy Shepard's ever going to figure everything out and build a championship contender. That's really hard to do in the NBA. And it requires getting lucky because you have to end up with one of the top five players in the league to win a championship. And, you know, at least a top 10 and another top 15ish player to even contend in the the NBA playoffs. This was going nowhere with Russell Westbrook, and I hate saying that because I've always been a big Russell Westbrook fan. But as a Russell Westbrook fan, I've learned something in recent years. You can't win with them. I don't think it's going to work in L.A., by the way.

When the game slows down in the postseason, he can't. If Bradley Beals your best player and Russell Westbrook's your second best player, and I said this after the series against Philadelphia, you might win 45-46 regular season games and be entertaining as hell, but you're not going to win in the postseason. You probably won't win one series. You might win one. That's it. That's the upside. They're moving away from that.

Now, are they going to move away from Beale? Most of the reporting says no. But I would have considered it. I've talked about this before. How you build a team around Beal right now. is going to be very interesting. The players that they brought back, Kuzma, Herald, and Contavius called Will Pope, I'm a big Mantra's Herald fan.

I love Herald. I hated that he left the Clippers. Kuzma, you know, in L.A., overshadowed by LeBron and AD, and probably just couldn't figure out his role. Pope can really guard. They got the number 22 overall pick from the Lakers that they turned into Aaron Holiday from Indiana and another pick early in the second round. and they drafted Corey Kispert.

Look, I'm a Corey Kisperd fan. I like Corey Kisperd. He's a great shooter. They've added some real shooters here yesterday. They added a lot of shooting, but they don't have a point guard. By the way, Kispert, competitor, tough, sharpshooter, can't really create his own offense. I think he's a better defender, but my last impression of Corey Kisper and almost everybody on that Gonzaga team is they, were manhandled by Baylor. And you can talk about all you want, the UCLA semi-final game,

and it drained Gonzaga. That was men versus boys. My favorite player, Davian Mitchell, picked early and before 15, as I predicted. Chris Duarte went two picks before the Wizards. That's who I wanted if he had been there at 15. Franz Wagner went much earlier. So the three players that I sort of talked about on yesterday's podcast were gone. I like Kisbert, and I understand what want to add. They want more shooters. They struggled with their shooters last year, but you've got to have a point guard. I don't know what's next. I think Beal stays and they try to build around him. And I think Tommy Shepard's going to have to do a really good job of convincing Beal that they can build around him. But the next step, and it's got to be the next step soon in free agency, right,

or before, is a point guard because for the first time, I don't know, in a decade, they don't have one. after Wall and Westbrook, they don't have a point guard. Aaron Holiday is not your starting point guard. He might have to be. Ish Smith and Netto aren't under contract. I'm a big Reggie Jackson fan. I think he's going to be too expensive. But we will get into this in much more detail with Chase Hughes.

All right, Ben Standing by from Richmond with the latest from camp this morning and even some stuff that happened yesterday. We'll get to that right after these words. from a few of our sponsors. Mark Zuckerman coming up, we'll get more into the Nats day and night. Chase Hughes coming up will get more into the wizard situation with Chase. Ben Standing, nice enough to join us after the morning routine down in Richmond. There was some things that happened yesterday and some conversation today. And I just thought we would catch up with Ben through the first couple of days of training camp

to talk about a couple of those things. I want to start with this. Yesterday, who ended up on COVID-19 protocol and ruled out for a while? There were a couple of players, who were they? So Cornelius Lucas was on there day one. Since then, Curtis Samuel, Matt Ionitis added to the list, along with Chris Miller, who's like a deep training camp roster kind of a guy. So we don't have more specifics at the moment on to what degree they're, you know,

Did they come in contact? Did they test positive? What have you? But, yeah, I mean, Samuel was already sidelined with a groin issue. And, you know, we'll see about, we'll see with that hyonitis, if it's, you know, a long term or not. But, yeah, so they've got some more names to the list. And, you know, obviously, they were fortunate last year that they had zero games missed because of this. And, you know, we are in training camp.

This is not the season. But, you know, we've already been sure you've discussed a bunch that, you know, their low vaccination rate and so on. This is, you know, an indication that this, you know, could be a bit trickier for them at least entering the season than perhaps it was even a year ago when we went over one of his ovax team. After Ron Rivera's expression of frustration and disappointment earlier in the week, was there any concern for him yesterday? For his, for his helping?

Yeah, his immune deficiency in being around some of these players that have tested positive. Yeah, I mean, I suspect there was. So the way that's set up in Richmond, you know, we've been on. Zoom life, obviously, you know, for all, you know, the last, you know, 15 months. But now in Richmond, we're back to some kind of face-to-face. We're in the same media room that we were in before. And the way it's working is, even though all the media is vaccinated, and we don't have to wear a mask.

Otherwise, when Rivera players come in, we all have to mask up, and they mask up, they mask up or they don't, but they, you know, in theory, the players, if they're unvaccinated, have to mask. Now, Rivera will enter the room with the mask, And he kind of comes in every day and says to us, hey, is everybody here vaccinated? Because he said, like, hey, I am a little bit concerned. He also said he had some fatigue yesterday because of the heat. It is pretty warm here.

It was today this afternoon. So I think there is some concern with his situation as well as, you know, just, you know, the heat, you know, combined sort of wearing him down and just wearing him down, you know, what, you know, does that make him even a little bit more compromise? So, yeah, it's definitely some level of concerning of what's going on behind the scenes. I don't know. But, yeah, I mean, it's been mentioned that, you know, it's nothing else. This guy who had these problems, if you're not going to be vaccinated, okay, it's your choice.

But for the record, the guy who's your coach, your leader, this may not be so good for him. Mark Maski reported earlier this morning that 87.9% of NFL players have now received at least one vaccine dose. So has there been any update as to Washington's numbers? Are they climbing or are they I mean, do we have any

update on their numbers? The last I've seen was came out from a couple days ago. It was about 60%. I think the Washington Post had that. Yeah. When I've been anything more specific than that. And like, you know, it is,

it is certainly conceivable that some player, you know, could be getting the, you know, in process to getting the vaccine, it's been a several months since I got it. But, you know, I remember, right, you get your first shots, and if you're getting the two shots,

kind of get your shot, you have to wait like three or four weeks, then get the second one. And after about 14 days, you're good. So, yeah, it's conceivable that some guys either got it just when they got the camp

or they're still in that process, but, you know, we don't have hard numbers. All we can kind of see is there are players who at walk through, like during the regular practices, they're just in their usual helmets. But at the walkthrough, there's no helmets and the guys who are not vaccinated essentially are being made to wear masks. That's a league policy.

So, you know, we'll see potentially over time. Well, actually, let me rephrase that. In Richmond, we're seeing the walk through the evening practice. In Ashburn, I don't believe we're going to have access to that. So we may not be able to see too much more face-to-face as it were on that front, but at least over the next, you know, a couple of days. I guess it's only one more day left here. we'll maybe have a better sense of, you know, if numbers have changed at all.

Last one on this, because I know people are probably tiring of this, but you guys are down there and you can put two and two together, and it sounds like there are some clues as to who's vaccinated and who isn't. And I suggested the other day on the podcast, you know, this 60% number is 60% of 90. So when they cut down to 53, that percentage could possibly go lower or it could go higher. Have any of you done sort of the back of the envelope math on whether or not the locks to make the roster are the significant percentage of the unvaccinated or the guys who aren't a lock to make the roster make up most of the unvaccinated? right yeah so you know everything like you know using the like you said the back of the envelope math and that's kind of what we're doing you know we're trying to take you know see what out there

who's wearing a mask or the couple of the clues i'll keep to myself just as we're out there but you know we're trying to get a sense of that and i would say if i do sort of a rough guess of a 53 man roster i mean the number seems kind of from a percentage basis kind of seems in line with the overall number so it doesn't it is a fair amount of the players you would expect, you know, to be on the roster are the ones wearing a mask. I mean, look, I don't want to, like, say names per se, but like, for example, today, I mean, this is on TV or video. You know, we had Taylor Heineke, Landon, Collins, Brandon Scher, all three entered the room

wearing a mask. Again, they could have, they could be vaccinated and decide, hey, if I want to wear a mask no matter what. But, you know, certain amount of logic would believe that that's probably not the case. I think at least a couple of them were asked about it, and they didn't say that they were or that they weren't. They just said it's a personal choice and so on. So, yeah, I mean, it is definitely a decent amount of players

who are going to be relied on for this team, or, you know, among the leaders, again, it doesn't mean, none of them had a vaccine last year because there wasn't none. So it doesn't mean that they can't avoid an issue, but at the moment, yeah, there are definitely two players who appear to be, on vaccinate. Yeah, and it's very possible that some of those players understand that even if they've

been vaccinated, they could get it and then spread it to somebody that doesn't have it and somebody that's immune deficient like their head coach. Who knows? All right, let's get to football. Before we go backwards to yesterday, I know that Brandon Sheriff spoke today, and you tweeted something out about something he said with respect to remaining a Washington football team player at the end of this year. What did he say? Yeah, I asked him. You know, you didn't sign an extension. You're playing on the tag again for some players. That's a good thing.

You want to be on a one-year deal, and others are maybe pissed off that you didn't get a longer-term deal. Where are you at with this? And he said he was comfortable with where he was. He reiterated that he wants to stay. And that, you know, but, you know, right now we're just going to focus on this season. And then I followed up with, okay, cool, but, like, it's not been multiple off seasons and your two sides haven't been able to get a deal done.

What gives you confidence that you're actually going to get? one and there's probably not going to be a third tag. So why do you think you're actually going to be here long term? And he just said, look, I want to be here. I'm confident. He's just reiterated that he was confident that he wants to get it done. You know, I mean, look, action speak louder than words. Brandon Sherp wasn't the only player to get a second tag this year.

I believe almost all the other ones signed contracts. Justin Simmons and Denver is one that comes to mind at least. Right. So, you know, there wasn't any real sense that he was going to get something done. I mean, before he even gave him the tag, I read a column that said, don't do this. Figure out a long-term deal now. You'll know where you are or kind of look to move on. But, you know, look, it appears like they'll play this season.

He's going to be their best offensive lineman, we would assume. And that's key. They need that, especially with some uncertainty at the tackle spots, especially the one right next to him. But at the same time, yeah, from a long-term perspective, I keep saying over and over again, I would be stunned at this point of Brandon Sheriff is back here because he's now going to have that $18 million salary as sort of a starting point for an annual average salary here. Maybe not somewhere else, but here. And that's just a awful lot to pay a guard. I mean, again, we'll see what happens this year.

He was named All-Pro last year. Maybe he has a better year. Who knows? But, you know, he's confident. I wouldn't say that I am, but presumably he knows more than I do. Yeah, I think there are a couple of players in addition to Sheriff. Isn't Alan Robinson playing on the franchise tag this year in Chicago? Because he wanted to get killed.

Yeah, he is. Yeah, he is on the tag. I mean, it's not completely uncommon. It's just, you know, we've obviously seen it here once before. And, you know, it's all relative. I guess somebody kind of phrased to me, like, one difference between Jonathan Allen situation and Brandon Scherf was that Jonathan Allen really pushed to stay here. And they would have been from that, you know, not saying his side conceded, anything, but I think they really kind of like what, you know, did that.

I'm not, brain of sure if you want to stay, I'm not doubting it, but it just didn't have any any sense from a negotiation standpoint that there was the same, hey, we got to get this done. I really want to stay. Everybody healthy other than the COVID situations through the first couple of days, other than Curtis Samuel? Yeah. Tim Settle was back. He'd miss the first day or two with some sort of a non-football injury illness.

Ricky Fields Jones, one of the guys. who was in theories in the mix of a third tight end spot was out today with a lower leg issue. Rivera said it was relatively minor. Cam Sims at one point today in practice kind of hit, was down on the ground for a bit, but have his, I think his left leg was checked, but Rivera said afterwards didn't look in it. It was anything too serious. So, yeah, so far so good on that front, they haven't had any issues.

And, you know, I mean, just even getting Landon Collins back, you know, to me is, you know, such a win. I really did not comprehend that he'd be ready to go at the start of camp. And, you know, relatively speaking, he looked good. You know how much I like you and how you are at the top of my list of people that I love to have these conversations with. But I'm going to pass on Stephen Simmons, Jr., turning Jimmy Morland around on a double move for a catch. And I'm going to pass on Terry McLorn and William Jackson being a show. day in and day out. And I'm going to focus on a couple of your other tweets,

including something that I do think is always interesting, and that is what are the coaches saying? What are the players saying? But Ron Rivera mentioned someone, and you tweeted out that player's name. He mentioned someone who is a great example of a veteran who seeks to help younger players. I want you to mention who that player is

and whether or not you think that Rivera singling him out means anything. Yeah, you're talking about John Bostic. I am. And I don't, look, I'm not going to lie. At various points during these press conferences, I'll space out for 10 seconds because I'm thinking of a question. Or maybe I'm pondering what happened at lunch. I want off for lunch.

I don't know. I'm trying to think of the phrasing of that question, but how it came up in any event, yeah, he's sort of like a broad topic, and he cited Bostic, and that seems like an absolute straight example. I mean, Bostick, even for us in the locker room, he's been, well, when we had access to the locker room, he was a guy that we would all go to.

He wasn't the world's best quote, but he was a totally solid guy. He would seem to be nice and helpful at all times and was willing to pitch in for us, and I can, and from my member, I did a story on Cole Holcomb a couple years ago when he was a rookie, and Bostick was a guy that I went to, and you could tell the report there.

So, you know, look, obviously, there's a first round pick on this team, and he plays the same position as John Bostic, and perhaps that's, you know, top of Rivera's mind because the opposite of Rivera invested in Jamie Davis. So, you know, I don't know if it means anything beyond that. I haven't, you know, I know some people have had Bostic sort of as a borderline, you know, potential surprise cut. I haven't gone there because I just don't know what I think of the depth behind the three starting linebackers, but, you know, obviously, any good, any positive mention is a good thing. I would be really surprised if Bostick got cut.

He is a favorite of the coaches. He's high IQ. He's sort of Del Rio's coach on the field to a certain extent. I just think the intrigue comes with if Jamin Davis really proves ready to open the season at middle linebacker, where do you put Bostick on the field? He could play, you know, Thomas Davis's position. He could play, you know, strong sidelinebacker, I think, to start with Holcomb, you know, at week's side. But I think that's one of those things we'll figure out as we watch, you know, the first

teamers in some of these preseason games to start. Taylor Heineke spoke today. What did he say? Yeah, it was sort of just a catch-up with him. A lot of it was sort of, you know, rehatching, you know, the journey from, you know, he's taking classes at O'DU sitting on his couch to all of a sudden being in this playoff game with Tom Brady, but just how he's learned to think about it and embrace it. You know, he said he's gone back and watched the Tampa Bay game a couple times because he was proud of what he did, and he wanted to sort of embrace that opportunity, but simultaneously, I asked him, you know, you become a very popular player here based on five quarters of football, and it's, and at least, you know, you've played a little bit more

than that, but ultimately, in terms of being here, it's five quarters. Having, you know, I imagine that, it makes, it, and I think it makes it, it, it makes them kind of evaluating what you are a bit of a challenge, and therefore I imagine you kind of, I probably feel something to prove, and he said, that yeah, I mean, look, he said, he's aware that he's gotten more attention. He's also aware that the two games he started in the NFL, he got hurting both, and his team lost both games. And, you know, so he can get some attention,

but ultimately you're going to have to stay on the field and win. So that's a step for him, but, you know, it is still kind of a ridiculously crazy story. While I think you and I don't believe that there's an actual quarterback competition, He is the other name consistently mentioned as being part of that, a guy who, you know, a year ago, he said, you know, he was pretty close to hanging it up. I think he said he had made himself a deal like if he went two full years since his last game, he was going to hang it up. And he said he was about five or six weeks away from that happening, I guess basically the end of the season. And, you know, he says he probably would have hung it up at that point. But obviously, Washington called and, you know, rewrote his history.

well, we wrote his future. He got some first team reps yesterday, and what about today? You know, I don't know. The first team reps thing is sort of tricky because Patrick is going first in all the drills. And then, like, they're mixing and matching a lot. So the first team reps, like, it's not like he was out there with every single offensive starter, but you kind of look to see Taylor Heinekees on the field, and so is like Chase Young, right? Something like that, like, okay, he's going up again.

the actual, you know, some of the starters on defense. So, you know, I don't think any of the quarterback to me have stood out to such a degree that you're like, wow, look at that. It's, you know, it makes them plays here, miss them through there. It's obviously, you know, it's still very early. It's only day three of campers, no pad. You know, I've got to qualify 27 things. But, you know, I mean, you can see it, you can see at times, you know, some of those moxie plays that he makes, which makes him such an interesting player.

there was one play today where it was sort of like some type of like a fake hand off and he kind of you know, you're like, you know,

look at that element and you know, he's a fun player but, you know, and we'll see where this where it goes. And again,

Kyle Allen, I know you said you talked about it the other day when you talked to Rivera and it was a topic that came up yesterday that, you know, Rivera says Kyle Allen is,

you know, conceivably still going to be in the mix. I don't know how you have three guys compete or if I believe it and it doesn't matter because it's going to be Patrick. But it's going to be a fun watch all summer. Yeah, one of the things that Rivera said today, right, is just how much his teammates sort of

believe in him, and he's got a lot of fans among his teammates. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I mean, look, anybody who's played competitive sports, you don't have had to have been a professional athlete to know that there are some players, some people you play games with that you like playing with more, that inspire something out of you, because they just have a certain element to what they do. And Heineke, there is something there. I don't think that's really much for debate. His biggest issue has been, can you stay on the field? You know, he doesn't have the world's strongest arm. And he stays, any, and he's been, he'll get out, he gets her, you know, based on his career every game he starts. But, yeah, there is this

intangible quality to him that you can't just teach. And, you know, I think, like, Kyle Allen feels like a bit more traditional sort of pocket pastor who's a little stiff could maybe make some throws. And I'm not just kind of kind of on anything, but he doesn't have that thing. That, that, that, that quality that He has, that doesn't mean he should be the starter. But there is something there that I totally get why Chase Young or other, if I'd be like, ooh, I kind of like this guy.

All right, a couple more, and then I'll let you run, because I know you've got to get back to it. Has there been, and, you know, I don't know how much stock you put into this, and I don't know necessarily that I put much stock into it on July 30th, you know, day three of camp. But has there been any, you know, in the 11-on-11, first team versus second team kind of reps in terms of players being in a spot, you know, with a group that was unexpected?

Not an ton. I mean, you know, there's a couple moments here and there where you take note of, you know, I don't think I thought today, like Cole Luke today, a guy would only even talk about making the team. I think at one point today he was out there, one of the five defensive backs. I think he was out there with some of the starters, and, you know, they've mixed and matched, mixed and match some of the receivers at times, but I think by and large it's been fairly conventional in terms of the starting lineup. I will say that, like, you know, you, you feel very dismissive of the receivers. Stephen Simms' tweet, which is a tremendous tweet.

But the point for me was the punt returner situation is super fascinating because the four guys who have been back there whenever they've been doing this are like Steven Sims, Dax Mill, and Isaiah Wright, and DeAndre Carter. And I don't have any of those guys on my basic 53-man roster. And the reason why Steven Sims is interesting, I thought, is obviously he had played before. He has started as a receiver. and I would, you know, he was the Palmer Turner after, and I don't think he was particularly good at that job,

but he was that guy, and I think he looked pretty decent in Tampa. He did make that, and that nice move today, and I did ask some Rivera about him specifically today, you know, Ron said some good things about him and so on, but I do feel like Steven Sim has done some good things as have a guy like Kelvin Harmon and some other, so it's a really deep group, but if Sims shows out enough a receiver, I mean, and he's viewed as the main Pumerturner, then I think he makes the team.

And then the question is he's keeping seven receivers or only six. So I think Stephen Sims has been, I'm not saying he's going to challenge McCorn or Samuel or some of those guys at the top or snap. But at the same point, you know, if he can keep this going, you know, maybe he actually does make the team, especially as the Pummer Turner. Well, look, I mean, they kept him in there last year, despite the fact that it seemed at one point it was even money he was going to muff or outright fumble. a punt return that cost him dearly in a game that they needed to have against Carolina.

The fact that they kept putting him back out there obviously means that they believe in him and they believe in something about him. So I guess on one hand, that shouldn't be that surprising, that they loved him enough where they didn't pull him from that position last year, when they probably should have. They brought him back. So they like something about him as a punt returner. And, you know, they haven't gotten much from their return game in recent years.

And it's a big part of, you know, the game still, not kickoff returns, but punt returns and guys that can really, you know, flip the field. And they haven't had anybody like that in recent years. So that is interesting to watch. And I'm trying to think, you know, for whatever reason, when you just mentioned Cole Luke, I know he got snaps last year. I remember him being on the field last year, you know, a couple of times in being noticeable. And what I can't remember is, did he return punts in any of those games? Or am I thinking of somebody else? Well, Danny Johnson, Danny Johnson was the one who was their primary return.

Stroman's done it. Yeah, Stroman's so. So Danny Johnson hasn't been, you know, he's been, he was more of a kick return after. He has not been back there on punt. He didn't even play corner left to his natural. position of corner. He only did special team. So conceivably he could be that guy, but again, they're not using him at the moment as a, as a punt returner. And I was just sort of lastly say, like Rivera said today, like, what he's seen from Steven Sims is what you want to see as

a slot receiver. I think a big question for me has been, and is where are they actually going to use Curtis Samuel? If Curtis Samuel like Carolina did last year, the post-Rivera coaching staff, they used him primarily in the slot, and he was very very, very, very good. effective. And in the backfield. And in the back field. Right. And in the back field. But the, but the Rivera-Scott Turner group in Carolina used him more outside. And so if he's, if he, if he, if they go with the slot, which I don't know if they will, I thought they might, but I don't know, then it seems like, you know, and Adam Humphreys, you know, won't get as much work. And maybe a Stevenson can fly it in if he's a returner. On the other hand, if Samuel's outside,

then you kind of need two guys in the slot, right? And then, and Humphreys and Sims could fill those roles. So I feel like it's going to be hard to figure out exactly what they want to do at a receiver until Samuel gets on the field because he's the guy that's going to be all over the place, I would think. I'll tell you what. Think about last year. They used McLorn in the slot at times when they had five wides. You had McKissick split out as either the X or the Z occasionally in their five in their empty sets. With McLorn, you know, matched up. This is where I think some of us, you know, many who are listening, I think you missed, some of you missed that Scott Turner schemed it up pretty well at times last year. I think he really did. So I guess

we're not going to know. They're certainly not going to show that in any preseason game. You'll probably see a little bit more of maybe how they're going to use Curtis Samuel when he's back versus Humphreys versus Sims Jr. I mean, Sims Jr. and Humphreys are clear slot guys only. But it doesn't mean that others aren't going to be in that position. And Curtis Samuel literally lined up in the backfield last year. Remember, he was a running back at Ohio State. So he lined up in the backfield, especially when McCaffrey was out and had a significant number of carries and they weren't all, you know, fly sweeps or reverses. What else? Anything that I didn't ask you that is significant?

You know, I probably have lost some good weight, waterway, because it's so hot, but simultaneously I'm eating crap food the whole time. You went through some drive-through. Which drive-thru did you just go through? Yeah, I was a chick-flet. I mean, it was on the way back to my hotel. You know, I'm going to have to make that move. They're very efficient.

Tons of cars in line, but I got out pretty quick. No, but in terms of the football stuff, I mean, you know, I don't know, I guess I was to say that today was the first day. We had some temper flaring. Mark Hemingway was getting into with Montess Wet and Chase Young was chirping in and Hemingway came off, had he sort of be held back a bit, came off the field,

flamed his helmet to the ground. And then a few minutes later, Samus Reyes and Cole Holcomb got into it, and, you know, it's the thing that's going to happen at some point that kind of make you be like, all right, train camp, we're going, let's go. Rivera was asked about it. He's like, look, I tell these guys all the time, fighting it's stupid. You're either going to get hurt,

get a penalty or just lose focus on what you're doing because now you're thinking about getting retaliation and that's not good for anybody. That said, it's training camp. It's okay to see a little temper, flare, get these guys going. That was fun to see nothing big happen beyond that. But it's a sign of perhaps what's to come,

especially while we're here in Richmond because it is crazy hot, and obviously these guys are, you know, they're getting after. Nothing like driving down Broad Street right after, you know, the morning practice looking for something to eat and finding chick-fil-A. That's always a better call than some of the other stuff you could have gone with. Thank you for doing this.

I appreciate it. Have a good weekend. I would talk to you about the Wizards, and I know you were following it. I know you've got really good thoughts about it, but I'm going to save that for Chase, even though you and I in previous years would have spent more time on that. Thank you and enjoy. Are you coming back next week? I guess everybody's coming back next week.

Saturday. There's a Saturday morning practice, and that's kind of it. And then I'm going to just drive straight to Los Angeles because I can't wait to watch Russell Westbrook and LeBron get each other's way during the playoffs. Okay. You know what? Okay. So that's what I'm going to talk to you about, because I've already recorded the interview with Chase, and I did not ask him about this. I'm going to give you my opinion on this. From a Lakers' perspective, I do not think it will work for the Lakers. No, it can't. I'll go so far as saying. So you agree with me.

If you are watching, I don't know who said what, because I wasn't working with watching TV last night, because I was dealing with this team and doing some other stuff, but I was tracking the draft on the draft and slightly pay attention with TV. Whoever is saying that this will work, you should stop listening to them as an analyst. This will not work at all. LeBron is, you know, an incredible player, but he needs the ball. So you need people around him who could shoot. Russell Westbrook is an incredible player who needs the ball,

but can't shoot. It doesn't matter what happened in game 10 against the Nuggets or game 46 against the Timberwolves. It's talking about game four, game five, game six, game seven of a playoff series in the fourth quarter, their offense will be a disaster. I have no confidence it will work on any level. And by the way, like somebody said to me the other day, like, well, it works with LeBron and Wade and Wade can't shoot. Wade is a much savier player who will blend in.

Westbrook does what Westbrook does, which is why. regardless of anything else, it was good for the Wizards because West Ansel can now coach this team as he would, not have this obstacle who's a very good player, but he's good what he wants. It'll be amazing to see how Westbrook and LeBron how they could gel or not. I don't see it working at all,

and these two guys are so alphas. I just think it's going to be amazing. Westbrook makes every team he goes to interesting, but he does not make them a playoff championship contender. Now, I know that he went to the championship with Oklahoma City and lost to Miami in four games. And by the way, for several of those games in that series was even more the alpha than Kevin Durant was. I am a big Russell Westbrook fan. I always have been. And I enjoyed last year during the regular season. But I've come to the conclusion, and I think you have too, that it's just,

it doesn't work when the games slow down and they become important possession by possession for not just the fourth quarter but for every quarter. And I don't see this working out for that reason, let alone the ones you added to it, which is LeBron has to have the ball in his hands. Westbrook needs to have it in his hands. Westbrook is going to be, I think, very much what it looked like at times with Hardin for the brief moment that we saw. all that, uncomfortable. Now, the big difference is James and Davis, by themselves, make the Lakers, if they're healthy, a contender.

Now, will Westbrook, you know, ruin that possibility, minimize that possibility? I think there's a chance that he does. I think, and again, it's like every time I say that, so many people, Ben, that are listening are like, dude, you were the biggest Russell Westbrook fan, and I still am. Nobody in team sports over the last 10 years has tried harder than Russ. He is one of the all-time most intense, relentless high-energy competitors in team sports history. And he gets phenomenal results in the regular season. And if your team can get stops and take the ball off the rim and get out and transition, he's devastating.

But we saw what it was like in the postseason here. and other teams have seen what it's been like in the postseason with him. When the game slows down, he can't. And I'm surprised to be perfectly honest with you that this is what LeBron wanted. I can't believe that it's to the Lakers. I think I'm really surprised LeBron, who, whatever you think of him, is a high, high IQ basketball person. I'm shocked that he thinks this will work because obviously it was his call.

So I would just say this to that. Obviously, everybody is their own individual, but having talked to enough athletes over the years, and maybe it's because they've all been beaten into the next man up mentality. But I think by and large, at least what they say publicly and sometimes privately, they all seem to think that they can make whatever work with whatever. They just want talent. They don't recognize always the fit. Like when Aaron Rogers talked the other day, which is in the most amazing press conference ever,

and he was a great question about why do you want to be involved in these decisions when all the decisions you seem to want to have made floundered on the, you know, the player went to him and it didn't work. He's like, yeah, it didn't work there. They would be playing here with me doing this. And that's the thing with fit. And that fit sometimes, it isn't about just talent. This is why, like, Team USA. You shouldn't take 12 all-star players. You need to take eight guys who are great and then fill in the blank of guys who do specific things if you're actually trying to win and not just have the marketing campaign you can have.

So Westbrook, yeah, on paper, the Lakers may have three of the best 25 players in the game. But the fit is terrible. The fit with Buddy Heald, whatever, as a name was being mentioned, seemingly to me is much better because Buddy Heald can shoot. LeBron gets double-teamed. He passes the ball to the open shooter. Boom.

This is the basic. This is how it works. So, yeah, I mean, my sense is LeBron is just desperate. You know, he's only viewing the finish line is getting close for him. He's got, you know, who knows how many more shots to win. And conceivably Westbrook was the best pure individual talent they could get. And he said, yeah, let's do it. I'm sure he would rather have had Chris Paul, but that wasn't a thing.

So he's going for the talent over the fit. And he probably thinks, I'm LeBron James. Damn it. Look what else I've done. I can do everything. I'll make this work. We'll see. And we will see what the Wizards do next, because there's got to be a next.

and I'm going to catch up with Chase Hughes a little bit later on after Mark Zuckerman, who's going to join us next to talk about that. Thank you. Always good to catch up. Have a good weekend. Have a good trip home. And I will talk to you next week. Yeah, by the way, 50% off the athletic right now.

Go click on one of my articles and then go through that way. And then we'll be everybody happy, including me, despite his heat. Okay. No, no, no, no. Hold on. I want everybody to make sure that they heard that. And I'm being serious. I've, you know, obviously push the athletic.

when Ben's on and when other people from the athletic are on, I also am associated and affiliated with the athletic from a business standpoint. I've mentioned that on the show before, but I'm also a customer of the athletic. But I want to make sure that those of you that are interested in subscribing to the athletic, hear what Ben just said. Right now, 50% off. It's totally worth it.

But the way that I would ask that you do it is to go to one of Ben's articles, which you would have to subscribe by clicking on his article that you want to read more of Ben's article and subscribe via that route. That way they know that you were there to read Ben and that's why you subscribed to the athletic. But really, in all honesty, I know I pitch a lot of different stuff on this podcast,

but I was skeptical at the very beginning. It has totally been worth it for Ben, number one, but for a lot of other people, like David Aldridge has written so well this week on everything NBA and Wizards related. And so, you know, you've got that. And Tark El Bashir is phenomenal on the caps. And they've just, they've got a really good group. And then you can read the writers from every other city and the national writers as well. To be honest with you, I think it's a better one-stop shop solution than any of the major.

websites, you know, ESPN, CBSSportsline.com, et cetera. I really do. All right. Have at it. Good weekend. Talk next week. Peace. Ben Standing, everybody. Up next, we will talk with Mark Zuckerman from Mass and Sports and the Nats chat podcast about everything

that went down with the Natch yesterday. Subscribe to the podcast. If you haven't done that, it doesn't cost you a thing. Also, rate us and review us where you can, especially on Apple. and Spotify. Mark Zuckerman covers the team, of course, for Massensports.com. Follow him on Twitter at Mark Zuckerman. Also, the Natch Chat podcast that he does with Galdi and Tim Schovers is a must listen to. You get it anywhere you get a podcast. You're going to want to listen to that podcast today, for sure. Mark joins us right now. I want to save the Trey Turner portion of this conversation

for second because I think that that was the part of the day yesterday that may not have been a shocker for everybody, but it was disappointing to many. And I want to talk about that in great detail. But before we get to that, overall, the parts that we thought would, you know, had the potential to get sold off did, you know, Max, Hand, Hudson, Schwerber. How did they do? How did Mike Rizzo do in what he pulled back? And I understand that part of the pullback from the Dodgers was because of Turner. But overall, you know, the parts that they sold off and what they got back, what kind of day was it? I know it's hard at this point with prospects, but what did you make of the hall they got back? You know, honestly, Kevin, it's too hard to even really know that right now.

I'm not going to claim to be a huge prospect guru. I can just tell you what, you know, people around the industry are saying and what they think about this. And that is, it's really hard nowadays to get a lot for rental players. This used to be a thing, you know, 10, 20 years ago where you could trade attending free agents and get two or three elite prospects for them. And teams have just become smarter at this. They understand the value of elite prospects. They understand that a rental player for two months,

yeah, might help carry you over the top, but often it's not worth as much as they used to give up for. So, you know, the two they got from the Dodgers, and we'll get to that, are the big names, and the rest of them are players that they hope some of them pan out and become good big leaguers for them. But I don't think there's anyone in that group that you say, oh, yes, this is the one to really be excited about. And maybe they paint out, maybe they don't.

It's such a crapshoot in this world when it comes to young baseball players and prospects and all that. But here's the thing. You put all of that in totality, and to me it's like you don't just evaluate one of these trades. You evaluate the entire thing. And what they have done yesterday and are going to continue to do before today is over is you trade all of your valuable assets here and stockpile as many good quality young players as you can. And from that quantity, you hope to get some quality out of it.

You hope you get a couple of future stars. You hope you get a couple of future good, solid big leaguers. And then you just hope to fill out the rest of your minor league system because that is the main of the organization. They've been in such bad shape there for a while now. It hasn't shown at the big league level because they've been winning for a long time. But eventually you have to have another group of kids to come up and replace them all. And they went into this season with the lowest rated farm system in baseball. And we've seen this year how that's been exposed.

They did not have to overcome their injuries, other calamities that have happened to them. So this is the first step toward rectifying that. And you just hope that several of these players that they're getting here in the last 24 hours, are ultimately going to be part of the next team that wins here. Did they do the right thing in trading Trade Turner? I believe they did, and it's hard. And 72 hours ago, I would have said, no way, don't do that. But here's what's happened in the last, it's built up over the last month,

but really in the last week, this is what's happened. They lost some games to some bad teams in horrible fashion that ruined any chance they had of making a run. this year. I thought there were still a chance. The schedule was easing up and they were going to start getting healthier, and then they got swept by the order and it was ugly, and they lost the first game to the Phillies on another blown play by Brad Hand, and it just got to a point you said, okay, this is not going to happen this year. This team's not going to be able to pull it off. And then, and I think this is really the key development that shaped a lot of what they've

done, is the Steven Strasbourg news. A week ago, they were doing. A week ago, they were thought he was coming back this year. They thought he was a couple weeks away from pitching for them this year. And then he continued to have the issue in his neck. They sent him down to his galae, he is specialist. And he was diagnosed with thoracic outlet syndrome, which for a major league pitcher, these days, that is the worst injury you can be told you have. That's worse than Tommy John's surgeries, labrum, rotator cuff, any of that stuff. This is the worst one. He had the surgery for it. They believe he'll be back at some point next year. And history says that Most pitchers do come back and pitch again in the big league,

but it also says that most of them do not come back to be the same kind of pitcher they were. And that, to me, was the sort of a final straw that Mike Riddle and Mark Lerner look at this and said, we're not just not in a position to win this year, but we're probably not in a good position to win next year either. And that's why you move trade Turner. If you were going for it in 2022, you keep Turner around. But once they realize it's not going to happen next year, it's time to actually start this whole thing over again. You have to trade your best commodity to get something more than just one of those second-tier prospects I was talking about before. You don't get a lot for rental players, but for a star player who has one year plus the two months the rest of this year, you can actually get something.

And so that's why the Scherzer and Turner trade netted them the Dodgers' top two prospects. top 50 prospects in baseball. These days, that's as good as you're going to get in a trade. It's hard to do better than that. Who knows if they pan out? They may not. But for what they were working with, I think that was the best they could have come. But on Turner, I get it, you know, if you aren't going to win,

and let's just assume that part of the conversation was we're not winning this year, we're not winning next year, and then we've got to pay him, right? We've got to pay him. but he's a great player. He's not a good player. He's a great player. He's a top 15 player. He's a top two to three shortstop in the game. If you're planning on winning in 2023 and 2024, why not consider paying him? It's a good question, and it's not necessarily wrong to think in those terms. And I believe for a while that there was a good chance that he might be the one who would stay out of all this group of big-time position players who have left.

But I think it's a couple things. As great as he is right now, he absolutely is. Are we sure that if he gets into his 30s, he's still going to be that player as a shortstop? I don't know the answer to that. Maybe he will be, but you think about what his skills are and speed is such a big part of it. Is that sustainable deep into his career?

And the market for shortstop has just skyrocketed here lately. Francisco Lindor got $300 million. You compare Lindor and Turner and Trey's better than him. So are you ready to commit $300 million to Tray Turner to pay him that much while he's in his 30? He's going to turn 30 in his first year of the next deal in 2023. There's risk there. And to go back to Strasbourg again, if you're Mark Lerner,

and you now see your saddle with $245 million to Strasbourg, and he may never be the same pitcher again, I bet you're a little gun-shy about giving a deal like that to anybody. Certainly somebody who's entering his 30s at that point. I get it, and it wouldn't necessarily be a totally wrong decision to think you could resign trade turn or long term, but there's risk involved in that as well. And I just wondered even everything else that's happened in the shape of the market and all this. If they looked at it and said, we love you as a player trade, but we're not convinced that that

would be a wise move for us to give you that much money. So it's just interesting the way, you know, as you said, I mean, even in the last week, the Strasbourg trade and all of these injuries. You know, if Schwerber doesn't get hurt, if Hudson doesn't get hurt, even if Strassberg's done for the year, if they've got, you know, everybody else and they don't get swept by the Orioles and they, you know, win a couple of more against the Padres and the Dodgers. And they're five back or five and a half back or four and a half back instead of seven and a

half or eight back. None of this probably happened yesterday. Maybe some of it does. but Turner certainly doesn't get dealt. No, and I think they even are buyers today, if that was the case. That's how, like, on a razor's edge they were, could have gone either way. And when Rizzo spoke to us last week, he talked about this sort of dual paths that they were looking at. I think he truly believed that he was going on the buy patch.

He did not think that everything that's happened in the last week was going to happen to leave them in this position where they had no choice to sell in his mind. So, yeah, I absolutely think they beat the Orioles. They close up the games they needed to. The Straussport doesn't have that injury. And they look at it and say, hey, we're gaming on the Mets. The Mets aren't that great. They've got issues.

The rest of the division is very weak. Like, yeah, hey, we may not be a truly championship team this year and our odds of beating the Dodgers or the Giants or the Padres in the playoffs is maybe not great. But, hey, we've got a chance to win the division. With this group, like, let's go for it. Let's give it one more shot here before all these guys become free age. So I absolutely think that was his mindset. And then everything that happened from that day forward was nothing but calamity.

And it got to the point by Thursday that you just said, there's no rational answer to this now, except to sell. And if you're going to sell, you've got to be all in on it. You can't just sell a couple of spare parts and think that that's going to make a difference long term for you. If you're going to do this, you've got to be all the way with it, and that's what they've done. I think there was something else at work here, and I've talked about it earlier in this podcast. and I want your thoughts on it.

COVID devastated, you know, all of sports from a revenue standpoint, really hurt baseball from a top-line revenue standpoint. But beyond that, the Nats were hurt more than anybody else because there is this expected and typical windfall of top-line revenue that is generated off of a World Series that they never got to experience. And I think, Mark, that had we not had COVID over the last 18 months, that the learners who, by the way, pencil everything out. We all understand that they are billionaires and they could write any check that they want to

check. That's not how they run their businesses, though. These businesses from a P&L standpoint have to pencil out. And I just wonder if there wasn't COVID and the big hit that everybody took, but the Nats probably took more than anybody else because they didn't get that huge bounce from winning the World Series, I wonder if they would have just said, no, we're going to pay Trey Turner, we're going to keep one of the best two or three short stops in the game. Yeah, I think that's absolutely fair.

I think, you know, you can trace all this back. To me, it all goes back to Tim Schover, our friend who produces our podcast, Amchette, came up with this. He said it all goes back to literally the night of the parade at the end of 2019. The parade is like a glorious day for everyone, And then that night Steve Jobsburg out of his contract, which was his right to do, and that was a deadline for it.

But from that moment forward, everything that happened has led to this moment where everything that went wrong. And COVID was a huge part of that because you're right. They lost the victory lap. And it's not just a symbolic thing, but a practical thing. You look at teams that win a championship, especially their first championship. What happened is the year after that season ticket sales go way up, TV ratings go way up. There's so much more attention on the franchise and good vibes. And yet, teams can live off that for years.

And the Nats were denied that, absolutely. And COVID is the reason for it. And, you know, you can say, yeah, that was out of their control, absolutely. You can also say, okay, there were things they still could have done to try to have a better roster this year, to be in a better position to try to win this year. And it didn't happen, some in their control, some out of their control, and now look where they are. But yeah, you can absolutely trace it back to COVID

and say that that had a devastating effect on the franchise, not just in the short term, but in the long term as well. The Natch Chat podcast with Galdi and Mark and Tim Schovers is phenomenal, and it's a must listen to today. So after you listen to this podcast, get to the Natch chat podcast that they put out. And, you know, this is going to be an interesting couple of years because literally it hasn't even been two years since a World Series title and now you've

got a few players only left on the team and it's a team that look it's in a bad division and you never know right i mean they're going to still feel the team and that team's still going to include Juan Soto who by the way is crushing it right now um and you know that was a devastating you know blown seven nothing lead yesterday in the second of two with the Phillies um but really practically speaking the odds are we are probably two to three years away from talking about this team in the same way we've been talking about them since 2012. I think so, probably. Let's see where they go.

I mean, I suppose it's possible that Mike Rizzo is going to tell us that now that they've shed all that money and moved on from all those guys that this winner, they're not going to rebuild, they're going to reload. And they're going to go sign some big free agents this winter and try to win a run. right away and then hope that next way it helps out at some point. I don't think that's where they're going with this. I mean, again, you don't trade, Tray Turner if that's what you're thinking. And if you have doubts about Steven Strauss for future, I don't think you're thinking

you're trying to win in 2022. But we'll see. We'll see. But, no, I agree. And it's been a long time. They've been in this position, 2010-211 for the last time. And let's remind ourselves that what they did, for basically a decade as a contender.

I know they didn't make the playoff difference, but they were trying to every year there. They made the playoffs five times. They won the division four times. They won the World Series. That is a really, really good run. And up until last year, when they finally had a losing record in the short season,

it was Matt's, Yankees, Dodgers, and Carlin were the only four teams and winning records every one of those years. So they deserve to be in that elite class. But for everyone, it does. have to end eventually. I know you can say, well, the Dodgers is not happening them, the Yankees doesn't happen to them. Well, if you want to spend like the Dodgers and Yankees, then go for it. But you know what those two organizations also have? It's allowed them to sustain it. Great farm systems. And the Nats have not had that in several years now. And that's why they're in the

position they're in now. All right. Last question. You know, let's just assume here that they're not able to, you know, rebuild a lesser expensive contender for the next color. And of years. I know that the learners have paid. We know that. They have paid big for players before, and then they passed on others. You don't think that they, you know, without a contending team, that they would move in a different direction when it's time to pay one Soto, do you? Well, here's what I would say. I think, my opinion, I think it's an opinion of a lot of people inside and outside the organization, is that if there is one guy, over the last several years, not just this current group,

with the last several years, that you would say, yes, he is worth whatever it costs to keep him, it's Juan Soto. He's a generational talent. He is still so young. He's going to be a free agent at what 26, I think it is, with skills that could not deteriorate. 25, I think, at 26 years old, yeah. So that, to me, there's far less risk in signing him

to a mega contract than there is Trey Turner. Steen Straussberg, Anthony Rendon, take your pick. So I think they go full core press on him. But that doesn't mean it's going to happen because one photo and Scott Borris, his agent, almost always take it all the way to free agency, which is their right to do that. And in a lot of ways, it makes a lot of sense to do that. I just take the first big contract offer you're given now

before you have a chance to negotiate with other teams. And we'll see what happens at that point. but to me the next step, and it may not happen right now, several years away, but the next step for the learners, now that you've done this, it's got to be all about keeping Juan Soto. And the best way to do that, in addition to the money, is to make sure that by the time he becomes, that it is his last year here in theory in 2024,

that you have a winning team again. So that helps convince him that you are on the right track and that now he can be the leader of the next team that competes for a chance. You know, you wrote in your, among many stories over the last 24 hours that, you know, essentially a champion's been broken up here. And it started really with Rendon leaving, obviously, but less than two years after a title, you know, that championship roster has been broken up. And as you wrote, they've now got the task of trying to build another. We'll see how they do with it. Nat's chat podcast for Mark.

He's with Galdi on it. It's an absolute listen for Nats fans. Of course, follow Mark on Twitter at Mark Zuckerman and read them at massensports.com. I know it was a crazy day, so I appreciate you making time for me. Today, I'll talk to you soon. All right. My pleasure again. Up next, Chase Hughes from NBC Sports, Washington.

We'll get to the Wizards in more detail. Right after these words from a few of our sponsors. Let's bring in Chase Hughes. from NBC Sports Washington. Chase does a great job covering the Wizards and the NBA for NBC Sports Washington. You can follow him on Twitter at Chase Hughes, NBCS. Before we get to the trade and everything they got back and the draft and what's next, I just want to ask you because I personally was surprised when I saw the breaking news

and my phone start lighting up late yesterday afternoon, early evening about Westbrook being traded. were you surprised? I was a little bit surprised. You know, it's interesting. Rumors had kind of surfaced, but it wasn't anything concrete, just about maybe Russell Westbrook would go to the Lakers. There were these, like, small signs I'd been asked about by fans, or it's like, hey, you know, LeBron and Anthony Davis are starting to follow Russell

Westbrook's wife, and people were close to him on Instagram. And I guess technically there were some signs there, some very 20-21 signs. but certainly nothing substantial in the way of a rumor that would say, okay, this is imminent. Nothing like last year when, you know, the rumor, of course, broke that John Wall might be going to the rockets and a trade for Russell Westbrook. We kind of marinated on that one for like a week. This one, I guess, bubbled up a little bit, but then sort of came out of nowhere, I would say. So before we get to the trade itself and then to the draft choices and the other trade they made, What do you think, Chase, this says about the direction the franchise wants to take?

You know, that's a fascinating question because I keep looking at this roster, and I'm not quite sure yet. Because looking at this roster right now, the first thing that stands out to me is it's one Bradley Biel trade away from a rebuild. They created flexibility, but ultimately what they did is they had two stars, and now they have one, and a bunch of pieces around him. And they've got some good players and some depths. And, you know, if they want to move forward with Bradley Beal and just a deep roster around him, maybe they can fill in the gaps.

Of course, they need a point guard, and maybe they could be a playoff team. But right now it seems like they may have taken a step back with the possibility of taking two steps forward, but I just don't know what that move would be. Because ultimately, in this day and age, and just in the NBA, you're not going to win much of anything, with one star, especially if that star is a third team all-NBA guy.

So are they going to push the gas? And is there some other big deal that we're not seeing yet? Or is this the beginning of a rebuild? I think it's difficult to tell. I think this is the team that's in transition as they enter free agency. You know, the step back for two steps forward is a good description. I mean, it's a step back from something that was never going to work. You would agree with that, right?

As constituted, no. But I think the other way they could have gone is maybe to try to make a big trade to add to what they had. But as constituted, no. I would agree. Yeah, I mean, and what would that big trade have been? Because to me, the big trade would have had to bring back the best of the three players or certainly the second best of the three players. I just don't, I'm not a believer. And I'm curious as to what you think. I'm not a believer that Bradley Beal as your best. best players is a championship caliber team, even if there are another one to two stars as part of it? No, I mean, I agree. I think they would have had to bring someone back who at a minimum was as good as Bradley Deal. Obviously, it would be very difficult to bring back someone who's better. But, yeah, you wouldn't be looking for someone who's not as good as Russell Westbrook or not as valuable as Russell Westbrook. But, you know, that's kind of the way contenders are built these days. I mean, look at the Lakers, they literally, I think only have four players on their roster right now. They gave

everything to get Russell Westbrook just because it was a third star and they will kind of figure out the rest later. So I thought maybe they could try to do that. Maybe they have evaluated the possibility of doing that and thought it wasn't realistic. And now have opted to create some financial flexibility, which is given them cap room, which is not something that has been associated with the Wizards, probably since 2016, when they went into free agency and tried to get Kevin Durant. And then, of course, Al Orphor and struck out and ended up signing Yomahimi. But that room is something they haven't had in the long time.

Don't remind me. $64 million. Don't remind me of that. So there's no question that right now, the toolbox, there's plenty of options for Tommy Shepard. It's kind of up to what he does with him now. All right. I do think it's interesting that you and your two steps forward considered a complete rebuild

as a possibility because that would mean also dealing. Beal. Everything that I read last night sort of indicated that that's not what they're going to do. That Beal has every intention of staying and they have every intention of keeping him. So which is your lien? A total rebuild, which would mean, you know, clearing Beal off the deck too, or building around Beal. My guess is that they'll build around Beal. I mean, just look at their track record how no matter what has gone on, they've been committed to him and Tommy Shepard said it's, you know, pretty clear. clearly the other day that as soon as the wizard can offer an extension, that extension will be

on the table ready for him to sign it if you want it. So they're going to do everything they can, I think, to build moving forward with him. But what is interesting is, you know, when Bradley Beale was mulling his future, and that whole thing was absolutely serious. It may have been downplayed by some and all that. And right now it looks like Bradley Beale is continuing to be committed to this team. But he was definitely considering his options. And one thing I was, was told by someone close to him is that he kind of feared getting back to square one where he's the only star on a team and it's just him and a bunch of guys, which is basically what it was when John Wall was recovering from injuries, right? They traded John Wall for Russell Westbrook.

All of a sudden, Bradley Beale had another star and someone who could take on the scoring responsibility on any given night and go off for 25, 30 points and, you know, take some pressure off of him. So I do wonder how Bradley Deal will feel about this roster when it's all set and done. But he remains committed, and ultimately it's got to be reminded, I think, anytime this comes up, that they can pay him a ton of money. If he waits until next off season, he can make something like five years, $266 million to be the biggest contract in NBA history, the types of which you would pay to the very, very top player in the league.

So you believed the reports last week. There were some out there that were contradicting the original reports was that he was mulling his future and considering asking for a trade. You believe that he was actually, yes, mulling his future and considering asking for a trade? No question. Yeah, I think he was. I think just comparing it to rumors of the past, this was definitely more serious and definitely the highest likelihood that he was going to be out. Now, when I wrote about, so I checked in and I confirmed all this stuff and got details,

but what I reminded everyone in that story is that, you know, look at their past, and look at the past of Tommy Shepard. He's done a good job of quieting the noise in the past. No one thought he would get the contract extension signed with Beal in 2019. So I wouldn't bet against him being able to do it again. And right now it looks like momentum is moving. in Tommy Shepard's favor in that regard, that it seems like he's got Bradley Beale on board, just like he has been in the past, despite at least a brief period of him considering his options.

So let's consider this for a moment, because I think you sort of laid out the way Beal felt when he was the only guy out there. And so he wants more, and maybe the relationship is such in which they're promising him more. but do you think that perhaps getting rid of Westbrook and dealing him to L.A. was a good thing for keeping Beal? Well, I think it could be. I think the flexibility that they've given themselves does allow for the potential to build a roster with a higher ceiling. I think when you have two players who are making up essentially 70% of the salary cap and one of them in Russell Westbrook is making $45 million, then it's just so hard to build a roster around them. if those guys aren't, you know, LeBron James and Anthony Davis, or one of them isn't Janice Antiginpo,

because you just look at their payroll last year, and there's a huge drop-off to the third guy, which was Davids Bertan, who obviously we could quibble with whether he's worth that money, and then you just don't have much room left for NBA-calibur rotation players that aren't on rookie contracts. You can't really have very many veterans in there. So you get Russell Westbrook out of there for $44, $45 million,

and, you know, say you can replace them with a bunch of guys that are worth the same amount of money, but give you three or four rotation players, and certainly it could help their ability to contend. But I think they're going to have to sell Bradley Beal on what the specific plan is right now, because, like I said, you look at this roster right now, and it's a little difficult to do. Yeah, I want to get to sort of the weirdly shaped roster, you know, off of these trades yesterday. But that's not why I asked you necessarily about Westbrook in terms of Beal. I was wondering whether or not it was more than just, okay, we freed up all of this space. Not all stars are, you know, the same, you know, to play with.

I'm just wondering if you have a thought on whether or not, you know, after a season, and it was exciting at times, certainly in the regular season, that maybe Beal, who's pretty intelligent, also came to the conclusion that this isn't the combo that contends. Well, when it comes to contending, I'm not sure, but I do believe that, and I talk to Brad about the impact Russ had on him, and he thought he was a great teammate. I think you kind of see this happen with Russell Westbrook. A lot of his teammates love playing with him, his coaches, love coaching him, and I think Bradley Gill just appreciated, as a lot of other guys have in the past, just the consistent effort

and competitive fire that Russell Westbrook brings. You know, Paul George said before this past season that he had the best year of his career in Oklahoma City because of Russell Westbrook, because that mindset and that 110% effort every play really rubbed off on him. And Bradley Veal saw a similar effect this year. So I think he liked playing with Russ, whether he thought he could contend with him. I'm not sure, but maybe the conversation from the Wizards could be, look, even if you like playing with him, this is for your best interest and the best interests of the team. All right.

Let's talk about the trades. Westbrook to L.A. for KSMA, KCP, and Heral, and then that number 22 pick, which they then turned into Aaron Holiday and the 31st overall pick. First of all, on the trade itself, what did you think on Kuzma, you know, Caldwell Pope, Harold and the first round pick. And I know the Wizards also are giving up some future second rounders to

the Lakers. What did you think of the deal? Well, I think it has to be tied to the beginning of this whole transaction, which would be trading away John Wall. And if you just consider the fact that they got the first round pick back that sort of kind of cancels out the one that they had to attach to John Wall. And he took a contract, a Supermax contract,

with a guy who was on a ruptured Achilles, and got three rotation players in return, essentially. And in Russell Westbrook, you get out from under his Supermax contract, obviously not as debilitating because he doesn't have the injury history, but just an impressive feat in that regard, I think that needs to be mentioned. And then they got three good players back. You know, Kyle Kuzma, obviously, and the spotlight of L.A. drew a lot of criticism.

His numbers have been down, but he's a talented young player who's proven to be a pretty good shooter in the past. Caldwell Pope is a pretty scrappy defender, can also shoot the three. Ideal and a bench roll, I would say. And I've always been a big fan of Montres-Harrow. I like the after the ring. He's a good rebounder, extremely efficient around the rim. So I think they have a lot more depth now.

They've got more versatility. They've got more shooting. And that's a good thing. Now, the trade, the subsequent trade, trading that 20-second pick, I thought it was a little interesting. I thought maybe they could stay there and get another first round talent. But clearly they liked what Aaron Holliday can bring in terms of his defensive potential, and he's a pretty good shooter as well.

Yeah, I'm a big Harrell fan as well. I didn't like him off of the Clippers this year. I think they could have used him. Personally, we haven't talked probably since the NBA finals were over. You know, it was a phenomenal run for Milwaukee. It was great for the city. He was great for Janus. Janice is incredible.

I don't think there's any chance they get by Brooklyn if Brooklyn doesn't have those injuries. And I think if Kauai doesn't go down, the Clippers would have won the title. But that's beside the point. They get back Aaron Holiday and then they end up taking a player at 31 overall. So let's look at the roster now because it is an odd roster. There's really no starting point guard on this team. team. You know, a team that added a lot of shooters with Corey Kispert being drafted at 15. By the way, I like Kispert. I always liked Kispert. By the way, he's competitive and is an

incredible shooter. But if you watch the title game like most of you did, he was manhandled by men. Just understand that Baylor, that was men versus boys in that title game. You can talk all about how Gonzaga was tired after that multi-overtime game thriller against you. UCLA. That was men versus boys in that game. But they added Chase a lot of shooting to this roster, some defense to this roster, some competitiveness to the roster, which they obviously had with Westbrook, but how does this roster move forward, you know, as it is? There's more coming, isn't there? Well, they have to find a point guard, as you mentioned. They've got the mid-level exception, and, you know, maybe you could fit like Alonzo ball or a sense.

or Denwitty or a Derek Rose, that level of a point guard in there. But then you've got just some really interesting problems to solve in terms of putting these lineups together because they have shooting, but they've also got some forwards and big men that you wonder how well they could play together. You know, Montrez-Harrel, Daniel Gafford, Rui Hachamura, Deni Avdia, you've kind of got this nucleus of forwards and big men that can't really shoot from the outside. but then you have guys who can offset that. So I think it's an interesting roster.

Thomas Bryant will be coming back from an ACL injury. He's a really good shooter. Dobis Bertons is a really good shooter. You add Kisper to that equation. Maybe with more space, Brad, the deal can shoot better. He shot a career low 3-point percentage this past season. So I think they've got a lot more options.

Defense and shooting could be strength. When those were relative weaknesses last year, obviously they fixed their defense on the fly. but the three-point shooting was never there. So I think the fact that they have more shooters, if I had one takeaway, that would be the good thing because they had to work around not being able to make threes last year, and that's just not ideal in this day and age.

I just think to take advantage of these shooters, they've got to have a point guard. You know, I mean, what have we had since 2009? That was the year, John, was drafted, right? 2000, no, 2011. 2010. 2010, thank you. Yeah.

They've had a high assist point guard for a long period of time. They don't have one right now. I just think with all of those shooters, you know, if Beal is your primary creator out of the offense, you may not be able to take advantage of that. So what are their options point guard-wise? Well, first of all, that's a good point to make, that they haven't had to search for a point guard in a long time.

Not since 2010. You have John Wall and Russell Westbrook, obviously Wall was hurt sometimes, but you thought he was coming back. It kind of reminds me of the Washington football team when they had, and this is not a perfect comparison, but Chris Samuel and then Trent Williams, and then once they needed a left tackle, it was just like an unusual feeling. So, yeah, they need a point guard first time in a long time. I would expect them to explore trades for that,

but you're probably looking at someone who would fit into the mid-level exception, which is going to be about $9, $9.5 million per year. You can give them a multi-year deal. So I think Derek Rose, Patty Mills, maybe Spencer Denwitty, who also toured his ACL last season. And Lungo Ball would be a question for me because, you know, I know a lot of teams are going to be interested in him, and I don't know if you could fit him into the mid-level exception

because he is young and presents upside. But if you have a lineup of shooters and Lonzo Ball to distribute it, I like that. I mean, he's a really good rebounder, a really good passer. And he's become a much better shooter over the years than I think a lot of people realize because he's been, hasn't been playing for a marquee team. But he's turned into a pretty good shooter despite all the obviously that was made of him coming out of college and his shooting for him and all that.

So I think he would make sense if the Wizards could get him. Is any of this in your mind leading to a potential Ben Simmons trade? I don't see how they could acquire a player like Ben Simmons at this point. You know, the first round pick, making that pick with Corey Kipps. True, true. Takes away the hypothetical appeal of that as an asset. You know, that eliminates one thing. And just the asking price sounds like it's so high in Philadelphia.

I mean, there's reports that they want, you know, players and multiple first-round picks and pick swaps. So I think the price is going to have to come down for them to trade Ben Simmons to anyone. But I would expect right now that it would be really difficult for the Wizards to pull off a trade that would bring in a guy of that caliber. I mean, he might be the best option via trade available all summer. And so there's going to be a lot of competition. And I think it would be difficult, especially when you consider the Wizards have their first-round pick. tied up a little bit with that John Walters. Yeah, I think that price is going to come down.

There are no takers for that player at that price right now. All right. You mentioned Dinwiddie. There have been some reports that that is a player. They're going to target Dinwiddie coming off that ACL injury in Brooklyn. I think personally Reggie Jackson is going to get a huge contract off of the way he played in the postseason for the Clippers. I've loved Jackson for a while now. I was glad to see him get into that spot and really excel. And he's not necessarily, you know, he's a scoring point guard

more, and so is Dinwiddie, by the way. And really, the point guards that are out there, with the exception of like Chris Paul or maybe Conley are all scoring point guards, right? For the most part, you'd be adding, you know, a scoring point guard. So, But that's got to be the move. That's got to be the next, you know, domino to fall. You're not going to go into this season with Aaron Holiday as your starting point guard, are you?

No, I don't think so. Den Whitty with the ACL, it's interesting. I mean, I liked him as a player before the injury, but he only played three games last year. It got injured, of course, and you'd be having him and Thomas Bryant coming back from the same injury. And Thomas Bryant's not going to be ready to start the season.

So you're talking about two pretty important rotation players that would be affected by a serious injury. So that's got to be noted. But in the whole conversation about a point guard and them sort of relying on elite point guards for a long time, I don't think it's the worst thing to transition away from that. You know, the Wizards over the past decade plus have really been committed to building a team around the backcourt. And just historically, not very many great NBA teams, NBA championship teams have been built that. way. I think a lot of people obviously look at the Warriors with Steph Curry and Clay Thompson, but if you look at the history of the game, I mean, that's a major aberration. You probably

have to go back to the Pistons of Isaiah Thomas and Joe Dumars to find the previous example. You're much better off having a more balanced roster. If you have a second star and one of your stars in the guard, you're better off if that guy's a wing or a big. So if the wizards end up going into a new era where they don't have a star point guard, but they're able to find a star somewhere else. I honestly think that would be for the best. Yeah, it's funny as you say that. I mean, obviously we all think of Golden State, but even Cleveland, we can call LeBron whatever he was, but he and Kyrie Irving were the two primary ball handlers, you know, offensively, even though they had different assignments defensively. I look at this roster and it just doesn't

make a lot of sense right now, so I'm with you. I think something's going to happen. But, You know, netting it all out, Chase, like they were a playoff team. If they hadn't had COVID, if Westbrook hadn't been hurt early, you know, maybe it was in a normal 82 game schedule, a roster capable of winning, you know, 44, 45, 46 games being a five seed. But, you know, maybe, maybe winning one playoff series, maybe. That was, I think that was the max. And now you've got a roster right now as it exists that would,

struggle to make the playoffs next year in the Eastern Conference. Do you agree with that? I agree. I think as constituted, they're not a playoff team. Now, of course, they'll get a point guard, so that'll change some things. But yeah, I mean, just look at the teams in the Eastern conference. I mean, the Celtics, look at the Celtics or the team that the Wizards played in the play in tournament. Is this team going to beat the Celtics or have a better record? You know, Miami Heat, I think the Hornets are on the rise. So that bottom part of the Eastern conference is getting better. And then, of course, the gap, as we saw when the Wizards played the Sixers, was pretty wide, and the Sixers weren't even the best team in the East.

I mean, Milwaukee was better. Brooklyn was better. So, yeah, I think the Wizards, right now, I would probably put them as the, you know, somewhere in like the 8 to 10 range in the East. Yeah, I mean, right now, the starting lineup, if they had to play a game tomorrow, and let's just assume that they do add a point guard. and then we don't know who they would lose for that point guard. But, you know, it's Beal, it's Hachamura. It should be Gafford, in my opinion, with Harold sort of backing them up, because I'd love Harold back in that sixth man role.

And then, you know, probably Kuzma, right? And the new point guard, whomever that is. That would be, I think, a safe guess. Denny Obdia maybe could play his way into that three spots. But Kuzma is at this point a better player, more accomplished. So I think he would be the starter. And that would be the starting lineup I would roll out at this point as well. I know you had a long night.

I appreciate you making time for me this morning. We'll talk soon. Thanks, Chase. Absolutely. Thanks for having me. Chase Hughes at Chase Hughes, NBCS. Thanks to Chase. Thanks to Mark Zuckerman.

Have a great weekend, everybody. I am taking Monday off. We will be in the midst of a move. but we'll be back on Tuesday and the rest of next week. Have a great weekend.