The Kevin Sheehan Show - Deshaun Watson to Washington?

Episode Date: February 16, 2022

Kevin with Cooley opened the show talking about whether or not Washington should be all in on Deshaun Watson. Also, Cooley on the Super Bowl and more. Al Galdi jumped on to talk about Ryan Zimmerman's retirement and also tons of Washington Football talk with Kevin.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Cheehan Show. Here's Kevin. Coolies with me today. Al Galdi will be on the show a little bit later on as well. I asked Galdi to come on the show because Ryan Zimmerman retired yesterday.

He has been truly the face of the Washington Nationals franchise since the franchise moved from Montreal. back in 2005, Galdi's Nats chat podcast, by the way, with Mark Zuckerman, is excellent. And they've got a new episode out this morning. Galdi will be on with us. We'll talk some Washington commanders. How'd that sound, Cooley? Washington commanders. We'll talk some Washington football.

I think that's the way I'm going to refer to it. I'm not going to say Washington football team. I'm just going to say, we're going to talk some Washington football. Because you know what then when they were the Redskins? It's very possible, I would have said, we're going to talk some Washington football coming up. What's wrong with that? Yeah, you could say that. Or you could say we're going to talk about this Washington football team.

You could say, hey, I'm going to talk about this Buccaneer team. Well, that's their name, the Tampa team. I realize that. But you can say I'll talk about the Tampa team. I want to talk about this Los Angeles team. Can't do that. There's two of them. You'll talk about the Chicago football team.

It doesn't really sound that bad. Right. I agree. No, I just, look, two weeks ago today was, you know, what I referred to on radio this morning, we are now two weeks AD after the death of the franchise. Or you could say after commanders started. But we're two weeks removed from truly one of the more embarrassing displays. And there have been a shitload of them, you know, in this franchise over the years. But having basically a year and a half to two years, or a year and a half or whatever it was, to plan, you know, to name the team, to then plan on the rollout of the team name and then to have it go as awkwardly as it did. It just, it really is kind of amazing just to think back two weeks ago. There's old Doug Williams and I love Doug sitting on the set with Jason Wright, you know, and, you know, and, uh, and John Allen on the Today Show set. And hey, Jason, what's the new name? And Jason says, Doug.

And Doug says, we're the commanders. I mean, the whole thing was just so absurd. But anyway, they are what they are. I have an important conversation with you today. I do want to find out your reactions to the Super Bowl. But I'm going to start. By the way, did you get to know Ryan Zimmerman at all? Did I what?

You got to know Ryan Zimmerman, right? Yeah, I hung out with Ryan Zimmerman a few times. Really good dude, right? Great dude. So much fun to be around. Yes. I was out of Super Bowl. I went to a Super Bowl party with Ryan Zimmerman at one of those Super Bowls,

like into a Super Bowl party. I got him into the ESPN party. What year was that? That's a great question. I think it was a year that Rex Hurston was in the Super Bowl. Oh, okay. It was the Colts game. Yeah, the Colts.

No, it wasn't. What was the next one? Going after that. That would have been Saints and Colts, right? Yeah, well, just keep in mind, like, when I'm talking about these Super Bowl, is the reason I'm lost, it's because we didn't go to the game. No. And those Super Bowl weeks just blend.

They do blend. Although I've always said, you know, because you and I did a couple of Super Bowl weeks together, obviously doing the show. the New York Super Bowl was a great week. It was a fun week. It was so cold that week in New York, but that was a fun week. That was the week, by the way, now that I'm thinking about it, that was the week that you and I,

I think it was the first night we got there. We were out at some bar, and the bartender, some woman just said, um, so, um, you know, are you guys father and son? Remember that? When they thought you were my son. That was ridiculous. You were so mad about that.

I was not happy about that. So I did this Twitter poll this morning, and then I took calls on the following question. And it's because we haven't really circled back to this particular player. And like a year, we mentioned him at times, but we haven't really gauged fan response, I guess, would be the way to describe it. But the question was, if Deshawn Watson is rehabbed, healthy, cleared of criminal allegations, eligible, and on the trade market, which I think he will be, should Washington make an aggressive run for him? Now, real quickly, what do you think there are, we're approaching 3,500 votes on the Twitter poll? What do you think the two answers were hell yes or hell no?

What do you think the breakdown on hell yes versus hell no was? Split? No. Oh yes was high, huh? Yeah. Yeah. Hell yes was 80. Right now at 80%.

Hell no is at 20%. I wonder if you threw it in there is I like it or I don't love it. You know, because I don't love it. But hell no, it's hard to say. You don't love it? You wouldn't want Deshawn Watson to be the quarterback of Washington. Let's just assume that you cared about the Washington football team, the Washington commanders anymore, because you don't.

Let's be really honest here. You don't care that much about the team anymore. What did you say? I still talking to you about it. I know. I know. And I'm going to continue to talk about it. some as well. I mean, that's what our audience wants us to talk about. And, you know,

I want to answer this question, but let's just stop for a second. You know what you love. You love when somebody doesn't care that much about it and you love to continue to talk about how they don't care that much about it. Because you want to say, I don't care about it at all, but you can't. So you're reliving your fantasy here that I don't care about it. I'm not. I'm not projecting through somebody else. I'm not projecting. Yes, you are. You're definitely doing it. You started doing it five years ago. No, that's true. I got a lot of friends in here that it's just a pure apathy to the, I got a lot. I know a lot of people, lots of them. Why did you take me off the regular handset? They don't even want to be a part of it.

They don't even want to watch the games anymore. Can you put yourself back off speaker? Can you put yourself back to where you were that the sound has changed? I'm not on speaker. Okay. Well, then do whatever you were doing earlier. I just started yelling at you. So that's not really true because I have admitted very much so my diminished passion for the team. And this was before the, you know, the name got yanked. I had already started to admit my diminishing passion for the team. I mean, if my passion was a raging 10 on a scale of 1 to 10 as hardcore. as you could be as a Washington Redskins fan,

which I was at for pretty much the significant percentage of my life. I was at the, you know, when Mike, when the Shanahan and the whole thing went down with RG3, that was kind of where I dipped to a six, and then after the Cousins' debacle, I dipped to like a five. And then over the last couple of years, I've dipped to, you know, probably like, between a three and a four. You know, maybe even a little bit lower.

But I, the problem is, is like people have noticed, before they played the Cowboys this year. Then we're close to the same amount of concern for this team. Okay. Except you don't even watch the, you don't even watch the games.

Well, I would, there's a difference to some extent. I have two gremlin who make it, hard watching game on a Sunday. That's fair. And I guess when you're at a three or four. I went back the year before.

I went back the year before and watched all the film. I don't do that this year. I know. Okay, so the Deshawn Watson thing, overwhelmingly people say, hell yeah. And I, by the way, would say, hell yeah. Like, if I

were the organization, it would not I would understand that I'm going to take a major PR hit, but that's all I take anyway as an organization. I take a PR hit basically when I wake up in the morning. People want, you know, people are out for the organization, justifiably so. I'm not saying that they're just out for them for, you know, the hell of it because they dislike them.

I mean, they do bad things and they do stupid things all the time. And so they take bad, you know, they take a PR hit just waking up in the morning. The owner is the most despised person in the history of this city that is in a politician. So he is a walking, you know, negative PR hit for the team every time, you know, he is seen. So it's like how much lower can you go? So you're going to have women's groups and you're going to have the victims, the alleged victims of the franchises culture. They're all going to be up in arms just like they've been for the last.

two years and even before that. And then when Deshawn Watson takes the field as a 26-year-old elite quarterback, you know, one of the, you know, getting ready to enter his prime under contract for the next four years, and he gives you a chance to be a legitimate contender for the next several years, that's going to fade. Because the only thing for this organization, now that they've, you know, change the culture they have, you know, and there's been a number. an independent auditor that has said they've got a much better workplace than they ever have before.

I mean, hell, they're the wokenest team in the NFL, and they love to tell you about how woke they are and how diverse they are. Not that I have anything against it. I'm just saying, you know, they've got a couple of things working there. What they have to do more than anything else is they've got to win. It's the only thing that matters, and it matters more now than ever before, because they have a season ticket base of like 20,000 people. And they got a new name that nobody likes. I've yet to meet my first person that says,

oh my God, I love the name. I've heard people say, eh, whatever. I have not heard one person, young, old, middle-aged, that says, I love the name. And so the only way to some sort of, you know, a total resuscitation is to win. And the only way that happens is if you land on a true franchise quarterback. So if I were them, I'd say to hell with all that's going to happen,

we're into giving guys second chances. Deshawn Watson here and Houston, here are three number ones in Duran Payne. And we'll take Watson. Thank you. Yeah, it's just funny because you and I had this talk a month ago, I said, really, it's a talent versus moral thing, and you said it's not a talent versus moral thing. Well, it is when 80% of your fans chooses talent over morals, even understanding the fan base. Well, that's not, let's not say it's the fan base, but 80% of your 3,500 votes. I mean, the problem is, is until you win, you're just going to be scrutinized and picked apart,

winning will change a lot of that. it will help it. It does. It's crazy. It does. The talent morals thing? Go ahead. Finish.

I understand the talent. The talent is his talent trumps his moral. The talent overcomes, you want him because of his talent, more so than you care about what he did. And it's basically like saying, I just want to watch football. I don't need him as a role model. I don't need him as anything other than the starting quarterback so I can watch our team win. That's what I want. I don't want to value this guy's character as anything more than a football player,

which I think is fascinating why people even try to do that in the first place. I mean, it's nice when you get a great guy out there that does the right thing. We can value their character, but at the same time, I'm not going to watch the commanders play because they have a bunch of great dudes out there that do a lot of charitable work. I'm just not. Watch them play because they made the playoffs,

and that's a big game this week. And I want to see a good game. And that's why I'm going to watch football. That's why I have, I mean, you just can't tell me that we're going to sit here and say, the majority of people, my kids are not going to watch football, because they hire bad people to play on the field.

And even at that, we're talking about 21, 22, 23, 24-year-olds that are going to make mistakes. He made mistakes that, if he's convicted of, are really unforgivable and should be in the eyes of the law. But that'll get handled. I'm going to watch football. Well, let's just talk about that for just a moment, because going back to the talent versus morals thing, first of all, somebody's going to give him a chance. He's going to play in this league again, period. And they're going to do their due diligence, and they're going to come out and say,

Well, of course. I mean, look, I prefaced the question by saying, as long as he's cleared of the criminal complaints. There are still, I think, 10 outstanding criminal complaints, and there were 22 civil cases that I guess are on the verge of being settled or perhaps have been settled. Obviously, the question here is based on the understanding that he has somehow been rehabilitated, he's cleared, he's going to be eligible, and all of those things. So you're bringing in, the team that brings him in and trades for him, if all of those things are true, are going to say he made mistakes.

He made a lot of mistakes. He has paid for those mistakes in the form of, you know, 22 civil lawsuits and whatever. that's going to account for in terms of dollars out of his own pocket. A massive reputation hit to a player who had a pristine image, very much so, before this thing. But we are, you know, certainly into giving, you know, people a second chance. And this guy has worked hard to understand the mistakes that he has made. And, you know, he's going to have to publicly say, I made some, I made mistakes. I did some things that really, I didn't really, you know, whatever.

He's going to have to come up with, you know, some sort of public, you know, mea culpa. I mean, hell, Michael Vic, because he had talent, you know, left, he paid a true price, you know, going to Leavenworth for however long he went to Leavenworth for. But somebody's going to trade for him unless this guy is a threat to the community when you bring him in. And even then, somebody's probably going to trade for him. I mean, Antonio Browns continued to get all of these chances. It's this organization that would be taking, you know, a perceived big risk by doing it because of what they've gone through and what they are perceived to be. But again, you know, they're going to continue to be scrutinized in negative public relations against for years. You're at a what else do you have to lose bypass.

That's my point. I understand your point. I agree. So, Jeremy Fowler. Here's the other aspect of it. Barring he's cleared, then it's an absolute hell yes. The other aspect of it is the Rams basically showed everybody, and there's a reason behind it, in my opinion, but they showed everybody if you want to think about it the way they did,

screw the number one picks, screw the first round picks. So get guys that fit our team that we know can play right now. and they've been better for it. It's hard to do. I think the reason for it is, one, we'll play for McVeigh because he's young, fun, there's an atmosphere that they understand, and two, it's L.A.

But that process, I haven't quite seen that process before. To some extent, it's almost what Dan tried to do when he first took over the team, which is fascinating. It's have your young dudes and then go acquire big name three agents in their 30s. Yeah.

He was acquiring players that were, and he made a practice of acquiring. And he was overpaying them. Overpaying for aging big names that were past their prime. Jalen Ramsey wasn't past his prime. OBJ is not past his prime. There were some risk there. Well, they needed it for the year. Matt Stafford was not past his prime as a quarterback at that position.

I understand that, but the principle of what Dan was trying to do is what they're doing in Los Angeles. He failed at it because he chose the wrong veteran players and overpaid them. So he gave them no reason really to want to perform for Washington. But that was the principle of what he was trying to do. Well, he also... Oh, that's good. Yeah, I'd give away my next, I would give away three first and throw on pain right now. I mean, keep in mind, too, the big difference, I mean, other than the differences that

we pointed out, is that he also got rid of a really good coach in Marty Schottenheimer, which Stan Cronkey didn't. He didn't say, I want to be more involved, and Sean McVeigh, you're out. You know, that's real, I mean, acquiring Jeff George, and Dion Sanders and Bruce Smith and Mark Carrier, you know, that wasn't the biggest issue. The issue is that, you know, basically he said to Norv Turner, I want to see Jeff George play, not Brad Johnson. You know, and then a year later, after Marty won eight out of his final 11, he said, yeah, I'm not having enough fun. I want to be more involved. That's not Stan Cronky.

Well, you know, lack of recognition of, it's the literal lack of recognition. of what talent looks like. I remember, my wife said this to me two days ago. She said, do you think they're super mad? Like when you said they should have just kept Sean and Fire Jay?

Right. I mean, I'll never forget today. I propose it. It was with you, right? Yeah. Was it with you? Yeah.

I couldn't believe it. Okay, hypothetically. Sean is going to get a job this year. If not this year, next year, and I think I was one year early on that. Would you just make McVey your head coach and either ask Jay if he wants to OC for Sean, demote him, fire him? Everyone's like, you're so ridiculous.

You did say it. First of all, I mean, before Sean... Because it's not hard for me to recognize talent, especially in that profession. Right. The funny thing is, you always... You always... You always liked Jay, too, personally. But let me just...

I was close friends with Jay. I just want to just give you... I'm friends with Jay. I want to give you more credit. When people didn't even really know who Sean was, you said he's going to be a head coach, and he's going to be a head coach a lot sooner than you think he's going to be a head coach. And people were saying, who?

Who's he talking about? Sean McVeigh. He's the tight ends coach, and he's going to, you know, he'll be the new OC. Well, I think he was being elevated OC. And you said... No, he was... Okay. You said...

You said multiple years before he interviewed for his first job, that the first time he goes out and interviews for a job, that the first time he goes out and interviews for a job, he's going to get hired as a head coach. And then you said, I think... One four year before. I think it was... I'm trying to give you credit because I think it was two years before. We brought this... Okay, yeah, it was before that, but we brought this conversation up in the off season before his last year. year. But you did say. But Jay did hire Sean as the O.C.

I know. I got the job. He hired Sean as his O. You did say, I would probably elevate Sean to head coach and then see if Jay didn't mind being the OC to which I said, well, no, Jay's not going to do that. I didn't knock the idea and I didn't say that you were wrong, but I did say there's no way Jay's going to say, Oh, sure. Let me now start to work for my offensive coordinator. But it would have been the right decision. But you know what? It worked out better for Sean because Sean ended up, you know, being a head coach in a much better organization.

Well, that's what I said to Maddie. I said even if they'd have made Sean the head coach, it wouldn't have been the same. No, it wouldn't have been the same. Because Dan would have tried to walk all over a 29-year-old at the time. of course not only that a kind of rising star handsome great communicating you know kind of a star of a head coach I mean that would have been even worse um so I did want to ask I want to circle back to Watson here in a moment on Stafford because you were talking about Stafford and Sean and Maddie was asking about it and I wanted them to trade for Matt Stafford a year ago you know obviously I wanted Aaron Rogers if he was

actually available or Russell Wilson or Deshawn Watson. But, you know, we'd kind of come to the conclusion that Watson had a no trade clause and Washington wasn't going to be on his list. And Russell Wilson put out a list, which Washington wasn't on a year ago. I think they would be on the list this year if you put out a list. And Aaron Rogers, you know, that situation was out there. So, you know, we know that Washington, you know, offered a first and a third and they didn't get it. You know, the Rams got, you know, got Stafford. And I have thought, and several callers and people on Twitter have said, do you really think that as much as you think Matt Stafford would have been the best quarterback to play for this franchise in 30 years and yada, yada, yada, and he would have

elevated the franchise and it would have been a contending year? It wouldn't it have been like Matt Stafford in Detroit being traded to Detroit, you know, the same kind of franchise. And what would that have meant? Well, I mean, I'll let you answer it. What would Matt Stafford here on this team in 2021 have meant? Still not Detroit. It's hard to say that. I think there's a, I think Detroit constantly has a fledgling attempt with players. And it's always a, I can't say, I feel like the base in Washington is better for Matt Stafford.

were they a Super Bowl team with Stafford? Probably not. Were they a playoff team? Yes, I think they could have been a playoff team with Matthew Stafford. But another year with Stafford and an offense that would start to grow, even though I'm still not sold on Turner. Granted, he's still growing. Another year with Stafford would have given them a consistent chance in the future

to be in the playoffs and start. to make a run at it. It would have meant a little bit more long-term success. I believe better than Detroit had. They won seven games this year. How many games would they have won with Stafford, a quarterback

all year long, playing 17 games? I think you give him two. That said, they did win a couple games, but I don't think they had any business winning. And the NFL got weird in the middle of the year, but do you really think out of 10 games, they're going to beat the Buccaneers more than once?

Twice? I don't know. I mean, maybe it's just they know the Buccaneers that well. They played them on the playoffs year before. I wouldn't have been surprised had Matt Stafford taken the team that was there and turned it into a 10-win season. Yeah, I think that's kind of what it would have been. I think, you know, a year ago I said, look, Tampa and Green Bay are going to be the favorites

in the NFC coming back. and Dallas is certainly going to be up there and people are going to be looking at the 49ers because they had all those injuries. But Washington's going to be in like the, you know, in the top five teams, you know, they'll be like fourth or fifth on the odds list to win the NFC championship.

Now, if they had gotten Rogers or Watson, I said they're going to be one of the two or three, you know, one of the two favorites to contend for the NFC championship. Stafford isn't Rogers. You know, he's not Wilson. he's not Watson in terms of their ability to kind of elevate. You know, people will say, don't you know what Watson's record was the last year he was there? I do.

It was 4 and 12. I understand that. He was also a playoff quarterback in the years prior to that. But anyway, and the franchise was a mess with the Bill O'Brien situation and the whole thing going on that particular year in Houston. But I think that it would have been a 10 and 7 playoff year. I think they would have been in that first weekend of the playoff. And, you know, having Stafford there, they would have had, you know, a chance. You know, they would have been a much better year with Stafford.

But, yeah, the Rams were much more set up to win right away with the team around them. And really, the coaching staff that he went into as well. And by the way, the defense was legit, upper tier, you know, top five kind of a defense. It was the number one defense, I think, the year before. And, you know, it was a- And then they added Von Miller. Yeah. So back to Watson for a moment because Jeremy Fowler has written about Watson just this morning.

And I didn't even see this when I was doing radio earlier. I'm just going to read to you. It's a story basically called rumors on futures of Aaron Donald, Sean McVeigh, Deshawn Watson, and Aaron Rogers. By the way, you know, the Sean McVeigh walking away thing, I don't see it happening. But Fowler basically says I'd be very surprised if McVeigh were to step away from coaching at age 36. But this is what he writes on Deshawn Watson. The latest on Deshawn Watson, the Texans quarterback who spent the 2021 season on the team's active roster but did not play, has begun evaluating potential fits for his services in 2022 with the Buccaneers and Vikings among teams on his radar.

One source noted that Watson, who has a no trade clause, is still early in the evaluation process, but he's looking for the right blend of offensive system, coaching, talent, and most importantly, the chance to win. Watson preferred the dolphins before last November's trade deadline, but the talks did not result in the deal, and Miami appears committed to Tuatunga Viloa playing under new coach Mike McDaniel. Watson is the defendant in 22 civil cases filed by women in four states, alleging sexual assault or inappropriate behavior during massage sessions. His legal issues remain unresolved and whether the league suspends him under the personal conduct policy is uncertain. The expectation league-wide, however, is that the Texans will once again explore trade options for Watson,

possibly around the start of the new league year on March 16th or before the draft in late April. The Buccaneers will exhaust all options to resolve their quarterback situation. after Brady retired. And they talk about Kyle Trask and Blame Gabbard and Russell Wilson and Watson are options. The Vikings, they write, have intriguing young pieces in Jefferson and Cook and face the big decision on Kirk Cousins, who is going to be a free agent after next year and has a $45 million cap hit in 2022. But Kevin O'Connell has already said and conveyed in his interview a strong belief in cousins

and the ability to really turn it around quickly on offense. So, you know, the 26-year-old Watson, you know, requested the trade last year because of that Jack, you know, whatever the guy's name was, the preacher, they had all those issues after he signed a four-year deal. And by the way, the Houston Police Department, Fowler, writes, is still investigating criminal complaints from 10 women. depositions have begun, but Watson cannot be deposed before February 22nd on those. So, you know, when you've got criminal complaints, there's still a chance he could go to jail. But anyway, that's the latest on Watson. If he clears all that stuff, he's going to get dealt and there's going to be demand for him, you know, whether Washington's one of those teams or not, there's going to be demand.

And then he's got the no trade clause. It's amazing, isn't it, Cooley, that this guy's got to be. got 22 civil cases and is facing 10 criminal complaints, and he's going to, you know, he's going to pick and choose where he wants to go. Well, his contract has a no trade clause. Yes, it does. So, I mean, yeah, it is amazing. But he's also, because of that, Kevin, not necessarily going to pick and choose where he wants to go.

That said, Houston only really needs two teams. and for a guy that made all of for a dude that basically said if I'm not running the team or if I can't be a part of it that I'm leaving and I don't want Houston's got no sense of feeling like Detroit did with Stafford to send him where he wants to go

right or to deal with one team in particular versus another team like if they're both two teams are on his list they don't care whoever offers more they're going to take it. I know I ask you this. I guess you do have to be on his list is the crazy thing

is he's got to say, I will go there. But here's the other difference. If he really doesn't want to play in Houston, then he's got to go somewhere. And the teams on his list might not be there. Yeah. I mean, after a year of not playing football and after, you know, you would...

That's not a problem. No, I understand that. But I think that you would want this guy to be in the most... of this last year of my life has been awful. And I, you know, I have learned from it and I just want to play football. And if he gets into this situation of like, no, I'm not going there or no, I'm not going here. And then Houston says, well, we're not trading you to the place that you want to go to because they're not offering as much.

I mean, you could end up with the situation you had before all, you know, all of the personal stuff. sort of emerged. I want to move quickly to a conversation about Kyler-Marie, and then I want your thoughts on the Super Bowl, and then I know you have to leave. Just really, really quick, though, on Watson. If there are two teams on his list

or someone on his list making an offer that he doesn't love, it's got to, like, you would hope he has someone advising him to say, look, dude, this is a fresh start. You got to pick it. I know you don't want to go to

Washington. But the environment that he were to be going to, would have to be bad enough for me to advise him not to go. Hey, he's got to get out of Houston. We all know that. And this is the only deal they're going to accept right now.

They're not going to take a first, a second, and Joe from down the street. Houston's got another offer on the table for three first and drawn pain. That's the offer they're going to take. So I think you should think strongly about changing the list around a little bit.

I agree with that, but as you were saying that, I also thought, if I were his agent, the one place that I would say, you can't go there. Even if they want you and they think that, you know, it'll be a real negative PR onslaught for a while. That's Detroit. Don't go there. No, it's Washington. Well, I wouldn't want him to go to Detroit. either. So I don't know if you saw this. Prior to the Super Bowl, there was a lot of news being made. I saw the Kyler Murray stuff. So Chris Mortensen said that there is a report, the Cardinals and

Kyler Murray, you know, Kyler Murray had scrubbed all the Cardinals from all of his social media last week. Morton said that per sources, Murray is described as self-centered, immature, and a finger pointer. Murray was frustrated with the franchise and was embarrassed. by the playoff loss to the Rams and thinks he's been framed as a scapegoat. There's another story. There have been several stories that have come out. This came from Mike Garofalo of the NFL Network. In what seems to be more evidence of mutual disgruntlement

between quarterback Kyler Murray and the Arizona Cardinals, Murray reportedly refused to go back into the team's playoff loss to the Rams in the fourth quarter, according to Garofalo. Garofalo said, quote, case in point the playoff game, a minute left, and the game had been decided, and back up Colt McCoy encouraged Murray to finish the game with his teammates. A banged up Murray said, no, that's it, I'm done, so I know a lot of cardinal folks were not happy with that one, Garoflo reported. Despite the organization's statement that nothing has changed regarding their high regard for Murray, this is the kind of Cold War you don't really want to have brewing with your franchise quarterback, who is extremely. who is extension eligible this offseason in the fourth year of his rookie deal. Where A, does Kyler Murray fit in the categories of, you know, Rogers Watson Wilson,

or then, you know, a category down of, you know, or maybe he's in his own category. Where does he fit, you know, of the potential quarterbacks that might be available for Washington to pursue? and then based on all of this smoke here on him, how interested would you be? Well, coming out, the big question was his indifference to football or whether or not he had it. How much he'd want to play? Would he want to play baseball? Some of his leadership stuff. I'm with Colt McCoy. You've got to finish that.

And I'm not finishing that game for anybody but the 50-so guys that I've been playing and practicing with. Because that's a position where you're the leader, and there's some go down with the ship aspect of that, with the starting quarterback. The game's over. It's not that tough to go finish a game. You might not want to. I've been a part of plenty of those games where I'd have loved to have said, my knee hurts. But you go and you finish the game. It's not a good look for him in any way, shape, or form.

I just – I get to this – I always think about this with owner. members, NFL teams, everyone that is a part of this. Like, where does it come from and why? And in an extension eligible year, is it convenient for them to have some issues where, you've got to go back and prove again. We don't have to pay you right now. You've got to get back out there and prove it.

Look at what you did. The other difference is, like, Tyler Murray is a grown man now, deleted the entire everything from the Cardinals from his social media. It's a weird thing to do, Kev. It's just a weird look. Like, I'm going to burn my scrapbook. Screw him.

Just leave the pictures up. Who cares? So, like, I'm concerned about his motivation. I'm somewhat concerned about his maturity because of that social media aspect. But I think he's an incredibly talented player. I thought he did a lot of special things. and has since he's been drafted. And he would be a great fit for what Turner has been trying to accomplish on offense.

I think he would actually be a really good fit for Washington. But I want to make sure that he's the guy that people will follow. And right now it doesn't seem like he's the dude that people will follow. He also had an abundance of weapons in Arizona. including Hopkins, which makes life a ton easier. He didn't have him in a bunch of games towards the end of the year. I mean, he was missing Hopkins, including, you know, the playoff game, where he was just dreadful.

Remember towards the end of the year, they lost almost every game. They beat Dallas. That was it. They lost, I think it was like four of their final five. That's right. And then they lost the playoff game in resounding fashion. Right. They see what the difference for him was.

Yeah, well, they were also kind of just a different team also without Hopkins, to be fair. You're right. But look, let me just net it out. Stude's a two-time pro bowler in three years. He was the rookie of the year. They drafted him number one overall a year after they had picked Rosen in the first round. They hired a head coach to coach him. if they wanted to trade him going into year four with him under control for the next two years

if they picked up the option for the fifth year, I just think that that would be a major red flag. In this day and age, you do not trade a guy. I don't care if you, like if you tell me you think that, you know, Steve Kime and Cliff Kingsbury and the bidwells that they're all morons, you know, and they're just going to be stupid and do this? No, no, no, no. If they think they can get Deshawn Hopkins.

Deshawn Watson? Or Deshawn Watson. Well, that would be one thing if they were to trade him to a team that could send back another quarterback, but I would still, you know, by the way, that would be more of a trade of convenience. And, hey, let's just see if we can make your guy who is a problem work, and you see if you can make our guy who's got all these issues work. That's a different conversation.

If they try to trade him to a regular team without a quarterback, you know, the Washington's, the Carolinas, the Saints, and, you know, they're going to trade him? I would just. They're not going to do that. I just would be like, wait a minute, hold on. Why are you trading Kyler Murray? Who are you going to play next year? Colt McCoy? What's wrong with him?

Yeah, no, they're not going to do that. I mean, the only reason they do that is if they knew they were going to get Roger. or they knew they were going to get Watson. But even if you knew that, I don't think that your commitment is so strong to Tyler Murray that you would have a problem saying, look, we had a chance to go get Aaron Rogers and we took it, and anyone would have a problem with that.

I understood. But again. But going back to just thinking out loud, he's not going anywhere. They're not going to trade him. It's just posturing. You don't give away your first overall pick. I understand that. I don't think Aaron Rogers is going anywhere. I don't think Russell Wilson's going anywhere.

We are so much right now in an NFL more so than ever before. If you have a guy, like a legit guy, you're not getting rid of him. You're keeping him because if you get rid of them, you don't, what are you going to replace him with? So I agree with you. But I guess my point was I agree with you that I don't think Kyler Murray will get moved. I don't think Aaron Rogers or Russell Wilson will get moved either. I think the Sean Watson situation is a little bit different. But all I'm saying is that if Steve Kime called Martin Mayhew and said, you guys are looking for a quarterback, we got one for you.

It's Kyler Murray. If I were Martin Mayhew, I would say, hmm, that's really interesting. Steve, I need to call you back. I need to talk to Ron, and then I would get with my group and say, why in God's Green Earth would they want to trade Kyler Murray after three years where he was a pro bowler for two of them? Because that would just be major red flag for me. You know, this isn't trading Aaron Rogers after a long career. Huh? But they're just sitting there asking the question, could a young coach not handle some of the things with the quarterback?

Because they're not teaching to lead? What was our draft evaluation on this guy? What was our interviews with him? Could we make a difference with him versus they couldn't? Yeah, but the things you're hearing are the things that, let's be honest, we're ring familiar around here. Now, Kyler Murray's a much better player than Robert Griffin III. But you can't have that at that position.

By the way, Kooley? Well, you're getting, you're going to get some of it with the Sean Watson. Oh, yes, there's not even a debate on the two players. Yeah, I mean, Kyler Murray is the next category down for me. I loved him coming out, and I knew you did too. And sometimes I'm in awe watching him, but I'm also sometimes watching him, and I'm like, oh, my God, he looked terrible. Like, that playoff game, he was horrible.

And I know it's his first playoff game. But he was hurt, and he didn't have his dude. Yeah, I know. And that's what he'd been accustomed to, and he's got to learn to overcome that, but he hasn't had to do that yet. I just want your quick thoughts on the Super Bowl when we come back right after these words from a few of our sponsors. This segment of the podcast is presented by MyBooky. Go to MyBooky.com or MyBooky.orgie. Use my promo code, Kevin D.C. They've got everything you need for college basketball. And the NCAA tournament, which starts a month from tomorrow.

get ready for it at mybooky.com, mybooky.ag, using my promo code, Kevin D.C. All right. What did you think of the Super Bowl? So here's the first lesson that I learned from the Super Bowl. Don't, if you actually want to watch the game, don't go to the country club where they set up tables and try to hang out while everyone else is going to talk to you and they don't play the volume while. Yeah, not a good spot for that. it was not the best spot. Second,

could the Rams just score before the half since our great bet to cover by three at the half was, just should have been so easy when they got the ball back? At the 50-yard line, yeah. It was a 42-yard line, and you're like, oh, we need the field goal here.

Well, that would have put it over, though. That would have put it over for the first half number. I had the... I wasn't on the over. I know. So you didn't care. You got the under on the first. I got the under on the first half. I got the under for the game. I pushed on the first half

minus three and obviously lost the Rams minus four. So understood, watching with a group of people, especially if you're you, can't be a lot of fun in terms of consuming the game. Why didn't the Rams win comfortably like we both thought they would? One, they could not run the ball. I thought since he did a terrific job stopping the run. And I do think the Rams did a good job getting away from it when they knew they couldn't run the ball. To O'Dell Beckham got hurt in the second quarter. And I truly believe that he is the spark that he's the coverage dictator.

Okay. The Cooper Cups is the spark of the offense. We understand that. and he was tremendous in the Super Bowl and did a phenomenal job. How they don't cover him more in the second half, I don't know. Like, where else the staff were going to go with the ball? Let's just bracket him all day. Just treat him like Taree Kill.

Right. But, I mean, why didn't they win by more? They couldn't score, they couldn't move it offensively. I mean, shoot, they sat borough seven times. Six in the second half. Once they started getting to Burroughs, once they started getting to Burroughs, they got to him late in the second quarter right before they got the ball back, right? Before the half.

Yeah. And then they got to him six times in the second half. They got to him six times in the second half when since he was still in the lead in that game. It kept getting to him. And that gave them so many opportunities to score. They couldn't. And I honestly think Sean does go more conservative. in the first Super Bowl in big games

he seems to go more conservative and say the players are going to win the game it's not going to be open it up play calling I didn't I didn't think it was phenomenal as far as play calling by McVe and then they have the big drives

in the game and I mean that was crazy too like was that a penalty on Logan Wilson I didn't think so not the way they had been calling the game not even close Yeah. And that gave them a new set of downs on the four-yard line. Like, I don't know. I thought I was really impressed with Cincinnati,

and I was all years their resilience and their ability to battle. And, you know, why didn't the Rams cover by more? I guess because Cincinnati became a pretty darn good football team. And if they learned how to protect their quarterback a little bit, they would be an exceptional team. And clearly it is the fact that they just don't have the firepower up front to not only protect their quarterback, but to run the football. They can't run the football.

they can't protect their quarterback. And still, Joe Burrow overcomes. And he's like 22 or 33, 250, 260. I thought he was great in the game. I don't know. I think we're just talking about Cincinnati being a pretty good football team. Yeah, I mean, look, I think,

because we haven't talked. So I thought that the game that I watched, that if these two teams played another 10 times, the Rams would win seven or eight of them, and of the seven or eight times they would win, five of them would have been by double digits. And Cincinnati was outstanding defensively, and the lack of being able to run the football and then losing OBJ was obviously a big deal, and they didn't have Higbee to start. But T. Higgins basically grabbed Jalen Ramsey's helmet and twisted it on the first play

of the second half, which was a touchdown. that should not have counted. That was a massive missed call that put seven points on the board. The guy Skaronkin or Skoronic, the dude that wears number 88 that was number 18 that dropped the touchdown pass in the NFC championship game. You know, he basically. The interception. Yeah, he coughs up a perfectly thrown ball interception.

That's 10 points for Cincinnati. They literally were shut down in this game by the Rams defense and by Aaron. Donald at the end. I want to get to your thoughts about the end. But after the flukeish, you know, touchdown and the field goal, they went punt, punt, punt, punt, and then got stopped on downs to end the game. Like, they weren't sniffing the ability to move the football. And it's because they could not block anybody, Donald and Von Miller in particular. So let's go to the end of the game when Cincinnati needs a field goal to force overtime. And this has been their M.O. I mean, we've had all these games and Joe Burrow bringing them back, you know, for three

consecutive weeks against Tennessee, against the chiefs, or two, you know, Tennessee Chiefs, and now he's got a chance to do it for a third consecutive week. And they're at midfield, second and one, and they throw a deep pass incomplete to chase. Third and one, they give it to P. Rine, and Aaron Donald stops him. And fourth and one, they dropped Burrow back, and Donald sacked him within like a second and a half, it seemed like game over. And by the way, on that play, we didn't mention this yesterday, but I've seen it since. Jamar Chase is wide open for a touchdown and a game winner. But they couldn't block. They couldn't protect. And Aaron Donald won the game with two great plays to end the game. What did you think of the Cincinnati play calling at the end? I'm at this point now where

I didn't like it. Okay, let's say that. I'm at this point now, and especially, in a big game where I just want to get the first down. The second one, I just, I'm going to go ahead and get the first down. I'm not going to question. Second one is still in the NFL a pretty split run pass down.

Right. It's weird. You got to play. You got to play both. And it is because a lot of people think this is a great opportunity to take a shot down the field and you make sure your quarterback knows,

hey, look, this is a no-stack situation. Second ones are a no-sac situation. So whatever you do, you've got to get rid of it. You got to dump it off. You've got to do something. Can't take a sack, but we are going to take a look at taking a shot down the football field. I hate it because I just want to get the first down in that situation. And maybe you give it to Mixen and he takes it for 18, you know,

or you throw a little flip screen or something. Like second one to me, I'm treating as a must-get-a-first-down. I've just gotten to that point because I think first-and-10 is the best possible situation. can be in in the national football league. I think the first and 10, especially when you're extending a drive, coming off a first down, is the most open-ended,

I don't know what you're doing situation. Every single play in my playbook's open on first and 10. And it's funny that I say that. Like, I've really watched lately over the last couple years, McVeigh will almost always just run it in the second one. Sean will almost always just find a way to get a first down in second one.

And that's really, even all the way through to high school football, second one, I'm just going to get the first down. With three set on first and ten, we got a new set of downs, and now we can take a shot. So, no, I didn't like the play calling. And as much, they did the same thing in the first drive of the game where they got the midfield. They had third and one and fourth and one, couldn't get it there.

Like, the foreshadowing of that first drive towards the end of the game, it was the same kind of deal. You know, your second and one Your second and one thing, I don't want to lose this thought. It's so interesting because, you know, it is like kind of a 50-50-ish kind of thing when you're watching a game.

Are they going to take a shot here? Are they going to take a go-for-a-chunk play because, you know, it's second-and-one and they've got them off-balance and they just got nine yards on first down? The problem is when you don't make second-in-one, throwing the football, all of a sudden you've got that pressure play of third and one, and it's like, Jesus Christ, we got nine yards on first down, and now we might have to punt.

You know, it's like, you're so right. Just get the first down. So then we have three more where we can fool around with the next three. But when you get nine on first down, you don't want to have to punt. And if you take its shot and you don't get it on second one, it brings in the whole. whole dynamic of, oh, we got a pressure third and one now, because there's no pressure on second in one, but the pressure builds on third and one, and on a fourth and one, it's really there. Oh, it's really there.

And the other aspect to that is, if we're taking a shot, you still remember Aaron Donald and Von Miller and saying don't take a sack doesn't mean that they don't win up the ball. Right. I don't know, there's just, there's some opportunities in second one. Like, you know how he didn't throw a hitch in the second one? or to throw a spacing concept. It's an easy throw and catch. That's the difference with the NFL is you can throw hitch on second one.

Let's just find the guy that's not pressed and throw a four-yard hitch. The defense is also saying, look, it's second and one. We're not going to give up the big play here. A lot of times you can get that easy throw and just move the chain. You've got to move the chains there. The second one is like taking the bitch shut, it's almost like splitting 20s. Like I got a win here. Let me just take the win.

Don't ever split tens. It's not splitting 20. It's not splitting 10s. It's doubling down a 7. And you're like, I got a chance to raise my bet. They got a 6 showing. Never double down. Never double down on a 7.

You know, you shouldn't double down on 8 either. You always double down on nine against a four, five, or six. And a lot of people do it against a two or three. You should not, the book says doubling down on an eight, maybe against a six, but nothing else. But anyway, we get into Blackjack talk. The bottom line is the fourth and one call when they got into that. I thought out of all of them, first of all of them,

first of all, P. Ryan, I guess, has been their short yardage back all year. He's a soft runner for me. There's just no way I wouldn't have had Mixin, the way I've watched Mixen here over the last several weeks running the football in third and one. But the fourth and one, you can't drop him back. He has not been able to even get close to having enough time in dropback mode against that pass rush in the second half. And they threw a little sprint out to number 25 Evans on a third and two on the previous drive, which was their only first down, I think, of the second half. had been only their first down in a while.

But dropping them back was just a big mistake. Just a big mistake. And Aaron Donald was awesome, Cooley. I thought personally, Tommy and I talked about this yesterday, I think, co-MVPs would have been the way to go with CUP and Donald. I thought they were equally responsible as the best. Aaron Donald was the best player on the field Sunday. Cup was great.

And I thought Cup might get it. I thought it was going to be really close, but I, you know, I think Donald should have at least shared it with him. Didn't I, didn't we talk about this on Friday? And I said, if it's not Stafford, it'll be Cooper Cup because he'll have 10 catches for however many yards and two touchdowns. Yeah. And I'm actually pretty sure I said that to you. I predicted. And I said the reason Aaron Donald won't is because we're not going to recognize the second two run stops.

Yeah. I mean, all that goes into the book says is a tackle, but a touchdown is a touchdown. You know, like, well, if you had two touchdowns. Yeah, but he had two sacks. He had two sacks, and he basically had the third sack on the final play of the game. I mean, he needed one strip fumble where you saw him running with the ball. Okay. Well, he didn't have that, but good God, he completely sure.

shut the game down when the game, you know, had a chance to be tied there at the end. He is awesome. I thought he was, he's done. I love watching him play. I love watching him play. I think he's exceptional. I don't, I agree with you that I think he's the MVP of the game. I think Cincinnati would also agree with you that he's the MVP of the game.

I mean, don't get me wrong. Cup was great and made some great catches. And that drive was huge. And, you know, Matt Stafford, had three straight playoff games where they needed drives at the end of the game to stay alive in the postseason and he delivered on three straight games. I mean, it was a really good postseason for Matt Stafford, which by the way started all of this Hall of Fame talk about Stafford, which, you know, I love Stafford. I'm a big Stafford fan. It's a bit too early for that. But we went through this yesterday.

Well, DeFer could win two more Super Bowls. What did you say? that Safferic could win two more Super Bowl No, no, no, no, it could be coming. The Hall of Fame talk in the career is ridiculous. We don't, that's not what it's about. I know. That's a fan conversation, maybe.

I know. I heard all the comparisons. Well, it's just like Eli Manning. Okay. Well, that is the, that is kind of the comparison. The big difference is Eli's got two Super Bowls and two Super Bowl MVP's. But, you know, so, okay, we'll go down this path again with Cooley. So I said to Tommy yesterday, you know, at no point in Eli's career and at no point so far in Matt Stafford's career, have we ever said, as football fans, they're one of the top five quarterbacks in the game.

And I'm not saying that that needs to be kind of the threshold, if you will, for Hall of Fame discussion. But it is interesting, like the Hall of Fame is the Hall of Fame. you're among the greatest that ever played the game. And yet Eli Manning, not one of his seasons would you have ever said he's a top five quarterback. And not one of Matt Stafford seasons would you have said he's a top five quarterback in the league? I mean, Eli Manning doesn't have one all pro season. And I think he only had two pro balls. But he's probably going to go to the Hall of Fame.

And he was a clutch quarterback. And he had two incredible postseason runs. By the way, to beat Belichick and Brady twice in the Super Bowl, which is a big part. That's why he's in the Hall of Fame. That's why he's probably. Belichick and Brady when they were going into that game at 16 and 0. Right. Four Pro Bowls, by the way.

No all pros, four Pro Bowls. Two-time Super Bowl MVP, though. But, you know, that is kind of the comp. The Hall of Fame thing, the Hall of Fame thing is easy. I was explained. You and I talk about it. Can you remember? would you forget him?

Does the game change if we don't say Matthew Stafford? Nothing about his time in Detroit would go into, he changed or made us think about the NFL. We could forget those 10 years in Detroit and not worry about it. So he's got to win more in L.A. He was good in Detroit, and the stats will end up backing it up, and that will help his Hall of Fame run. But nothing about his Detroit run was memorable.

Nothing. No. But, you know, like you said, he's got more years to play. He's only 34 years old. I mean, two years from now, we might say he's a first ballot because he just won his third straight Super Bowl. And he was an MVP in the league, you know? I mean, so his story hasn't been written. The comp right now for him would be Eli Manning. It's not a bad comp. I think Eli's going to get in. But, you know, I think it's debatable as to whether or not he's earned it. If his last name wasn't Manning, we would be saying the same thing.

Can you kind of write and tell the story of the NFL without having Eli Manning be a big part of the conversation? Well, of course you could. I mean, it's not like there have been 15 Super Bowls played. There have been 56 now, and he was in two of them. Two memorable Super Bowls, very memorable Super Bowls, because he defeated the 17 and 0, or at that point, the 18 and O, New England Patriots, and stop them from becoming the all-time, you know, undefeated Super Bowl, number one Super Bowl champion.

I mean, a lot of people still say the 2007 Patriots are, you know, among the two or three greatest teams of all time. And he beat him. And he beat him on a long drive and throwing a touchdown pass to Burris with 30 seconds to go in the game. Eli was kind of a clutch quarterback. Hell, you played against him, not, you know, against him, but you're on teams and you played against him when he was in his prime.

what did you think of Eli when he was playing? I think Eli was a great quarterback. And when you say we're not talking about Eli Manning is one of the top five quarterbacks at any point in his career. We're also not talking about him out of

the top ten until his last couple years. I know. But top ten ain't top five. He wasn't a... Was he in a... Top ten finding a way to become club. and win two massive Super Bowls against a better team

changes the dynamic of it. I understand that. At any point, did you consider Eli Manning to be an elite quarterback? What did you guys think of Eli? All the players. I'm just curious. I've always thought that Eli was a very good quarterback. What made him really good?

I think that one of the hardest things with Eli is he's not elite because Peyton is elite. so he's not Peyton I've always thought of Eli that way well he's not Peyton which is not fair but I've always thought of it that way well he's not his brother but I've always thought he was in the excellent quarterback

they beat us probably 75% of the time and a large part of that was Eli Manning you guys got him a couple times though in their Super Bowl seasons in 2007 I mean, I think you were the last team to beat him. Yeah. We beat them both times in 2007.

But like I'm looking at the 2010 season, Eli finished. Eli finished fifth. Go ahead. Oh, I was going to say, in 2010, we beat him in New York. The wind was going about 60 miles an hour. No, the game you're thinking of, I think, was the 2007 after Sean passed away when you guys made the playoffs on a Sunday night when the wind was blowing like 50 miles per hour.

Yeah, it was. That's right. Gibbs wouldn't ride the train. He wouldn't. And all the players wanted to ride the train so we didn't have to fly. Oh, really? It was windy, man. That was a rough flight, too. Yeah. That was part of that run

to the postseason before you lost to Seattle. But, like, I'm looking at 2010, which was, you know, a really good Eli season. Okay? finished fifth and passing yards. But here were the quarterbacks in the game, all right? Rivers, Manning, Breeze, Rogers, Brady, Ryan. You know, so top 10, not top five.

Ryan and Eli and Eli were comfortable. I guess so. Brady, Rogers, Breeze, Manning, Rivers. Rivers was a better quarterback than Eli Manning. This was. That didn't win. But if you don't say Manning in that top five, you might say Manning in that top five. Was Tony Romo a better quarterback than Eli Manning?

Yeah, for a couple years, it was. Not over the longevity of their careers, but for a couple years, he was probably better quarterback. All right, thanks. I'll talk to you soon. See, buddy. Al Galdi next on the retirement of Ryan Zimmerman and more. in the first game in their beautiful new ballpark, Ryan Zimmerman, with a game-ending home run.

Coming up on 14 years ago, it was March 30th, 2008 that Nats Park opened to its first regular season game, and it was Ryan Zimmerman's walk-off home run that beat the Braves 3-2. We welcome on to the podcast, Al Galdi, my good friend from 9. 980 days. Al, of course, is the host of the Al Galdi podcast. Al also is a co-host of the Nats chat podcast with Mark Zuckerman, produced by her good friend Tim Schoberz as well. And we will talk some football, I promise, with Galdi, maybe a lot of football. But I called you up because Al was always our go-to Nat's guy at the station. And I was curious as to what your reaction was to

Ryan Zimmerman's career, which came to an end yesterday with the announcement of his retirement. Yeah, so, I mean, he's one of the principal faces of Washington, D.C. sports over the last 20 years. I mean, I think Alex Ovetskin is number one, and you could make a really strong case that Zimmerman is number two. He was the first great player for the Nats. I mean, the Nats have had a number of really good players. Certainly since the team got good beginning with the 2012 season, Zimmerman, was a great player for the NADs before that time. You know, the Nats were a really bad team 2006 through 2010. Zimmerman, and I'm not overstating this,

was an MVP caliber player for some of those years. Like, you look at his 2009-2010 seasons. He was performing at a really high level. It's kind of a shame. His best seasons were kind of wasted on those bad teams by the time that the Nats got good. Zimmerman was in the secondary phase of his career in which he dealt with a lot of way of injury.

And we're still a good player when he played, but he just didn't play all that much. But he was a really good player. He was a clutch player. He's among the all-time leaders in walk-off home runs, which is a really cool thing to be a part of 11 career walk-off home runs in the regular season. And you look at those ahead of him and tied with him.

They're baseball immortals. They're guys like Babe Ruth and Stan Musial and Jimmy Double X Fox and people like that. So that's a really special thing to be able to say. And I think another thing with Zimmerman is this, that he was all class and dignity and poised. There was never any controversies with him. And the thing that I'll always appreciate about him more than anything, I think, is when he made the transition from third base to first base,

and a transition that happened a lot sooner than anyone thought that it would because he was having shoulder problems and he couldn't throw the baseball anymore and he had the yip. He handled that with such grace. Like he could have been a malcontent. He could have had the boo-boo face. He could have whined. He could have complained.

And every indication is that he did none of those things. He handled it like a pro. And this actually struck me this past Washington football season with the whole Landon Collins thing. And, you know, it was kind of funny how, like, Ron Rivera would joke about how Landon didn't like being called a linebacker. But to me, it was also kind of off-putting. Like, you get paid a lot of money.

You're no longer good as a pure safety. The team is trying to put you in a better position to make plays. so accept it instead of complaining about it. And I thought about Zimmerman when I would think about the Collins thing, and I know the two things aren't exact equals, but it just maybe appreciate the way Zimmerman handled his situation so much more because that could have been an awkward thing, a star player being put at a position that you're normally not put at until you're liking your late 30.

And Zimmerman took it and he handled it well, and he actually became a good first base. So I'll always respect him for that. That's an interesting comparison to Landon Collins. I mean, Ron would literally say, I can't say linebacker. We got to call him a box safety or whatever it was because Landon did not want LB next to his name when the rosters were handed out before the game. But anyway, so, you know, he had these really good years, but everybody's universally in agreement, right, that this was not. a Hall of Fame career. But I'm just curious how close was he? I mean, if he had had,

you know, I remember there were a couple of long hitting streaks that he had when he was really going well in 2009 and 2010. You know, I think at one point he had a hitting streak that may have reached 37 or 38 games. I forget what it was exactly. How far away, how many, you know, seasons of maybe much better baseball and much better health. by the way, because he really did miss a lot of games during the course of his career. But how far away was he from being a legitimate player of Hall of Fame worthiness? Yeah, I mean, I would say he needed another like four big seasons at least to be in that Hall of Fame conversation. And the problem is his volume of production just is not there.

there's sort of a standard in baseball analytics of if you're a 60 career war player, you're in the Hall of Fame conversation. Zimmerman is about a 40 career war player. So he needed, he needed like, you know, give or take four really good seasons. I mentioned those 09 in 2010 seasons. Those were Hall of Fame seasons. Those were Monster seasons. He had other good seasons, too.

His 2012 was good. His 2013 was good. But after 2013, he was never really a super productive play. again, again, in terms of volume of production. The per game stuff is there. But just like at some point, it is about like, okay, you need to be out there and producing. And he just wasn't. And it really is amazing the extent to which he missed games.

Ryan Zimmerman played in more than 115, 115, 115, 1-15 games just one time after the 2013 season. That's a lot of missed time. And, you know, it's not his fault. Yeah, like, it's not his fault. He was in his 20s, too. It wasn't like he was old at that point. I know. His body just started breaking down.

It's a real shame. You know, it's kind of odd. Zimmerman was part of this triumvirate of guys from the Virginia Beach area who came to prominence in Major League Baseball in like the mid-to-late ought. He, David Wright, and Mark Reynolds. And the parallels between Zimmerman's and David Wright's careers are kind of eerie. Each guy a third baseman, each guy in the National League East, each guy started off his career on fire, but each guy faded rather quickly due to injury. And it's unfortunate that it happened with Zimmerman.

But the thing with Zimmerman is, like I said, he still was good on a poor game basis. And he was a good playoff player. And in those playoff years, he was a meaningful contributor to the NAC. He has a career postseason OPS at 790, had some big moments in the 2019 run to the World Series. So I think that should be noted. It's not like he was a hanger on when the Nats won that championship. he was a meaningful contributor on that 2019 season. Well, I mean, when they were down two games to one against the Dodgers in game four,

he had a massive home run in that game. I was reliving some of these moments from that 2019 season. Obviously, down two nothing in game one against Houston. He had the home run that got him on the board, and that was a deep shot to center field. He had the defensive moment when Annabelle Sanchez had the, the no-hitter going in game one of the NLCS in St. Louis. He had some big moments for them during that 2019 run. And by the way, he had some big moments the year that they played the Dodgers back in 2016

in a game at Dodgers Stadium in a game that they had to have. It was he and Worth who really ended up delivering in pressure moments. I had a couple of specific questions about him for you. Number one, how good of a third baseman was he? He was really good before the injury. And the injury is what happened to his shoulder. So October 2012, he underwent arthroscopic surgery on the AC joint in his right shoulder. And he was never the same after that.

And that's really what caused the throwing problems. But prior to that, he was a very athletic, dependable first baseman. And his throwing was, for the most part, just fine. And, you know, Zimmerman used to bring up Cal Ripkin Jr. Because I think Zimmerman wanted to do the Ripkin thing, and Zimmerman did do the Ripkin thing of playing your entire career on the same team. But Zimmerman was Ripkin-esque in terms of Zimmerman is a bigger guy, but he was athletic and mobile and, you know, nift for a guy of his size.

He was listed as being 6-3-215, but he could move. You know, he could make the diving catch. She could make, you know, the play on which you come charge again, have to bear hand the baseball and then fire at the first base. I mean, you mentioned the great catch you made at first base in October 2019 to preserve the Annabal Sanchez no-hitter in game one of the NLCS. Like, he could still do those things. So he was a really athletic guy for his size.

And the athleticism really didn't leave the ability to throw the baseball left. But if you remember, when he was making the transition from third to first, he started playing in left field. And he was able to play in the outfield because he had that kind of athletic. Leticism, you know, going back to the Hall of Fame conversation, that is something that really would have helped his Hall of Fame cause. And he stayed at third. Yeah, absolutely, because third base is considered a premium defensive position.

And so if you can excel defensively at third while also doing well offensively, that really can help a Hall of Fame case. The problem when you get put at first base is that that's a defensive spot that's way down the totem pole in terms of the defensive hierarchy of baseball. And so you really have to become like a monster offensive president. to make the Hall of Fame as a first basement. And, you know, as good as he was, he was not a monster offensive performance. I mean, could you have said if he had stayed at third base his entire career

that he could have had a Scott Rowland-like career? Yeah, yeah. And actually, that's a good comp because Roland dealt with a lot in the way of injury as well. But Roland, if you look at his career total, did end up getting a pretty good volume of production better than Zimmerman in a lot. I mean, to me, Roland should be in the Hall of Fame. So yeah, Zimmerman could have had a run like that, and he just unfortunately wasn't able to. You know, I know the Nats aren't supposed to be good this upcoming season,

and there's a bit of, you know, kind of a mode of rebuild, and there's the question of Soto, down the road, et cetera. But we also now have, and it's been kind of an under-discussed story, I think, at least it has been on the shows that I've been involved in. we've got a universal DH, you know, one of the, one of the, you know, one of the cliched sports arguments for so many years. He could have certainly played a few more years and been a designated hitter in the National League for the Nats.

He could have, and I think it's interesting that he chose not to do that. I think at least a decent part of him retiring is the state of the Nats. And I'm not sure that he's psyched about. getting his body ready to play on a team that may well be really bad once again this coming season. I mean, the Nats were a terrible team last year. Like, that really can't be overstated. It all came apart for them last year.

And I think Zimmerman may look at it and say, yeah, I probably could still play, but, you know, to put my body through whatever I need to put my body through for the purpose of a team that wins, you know, 65, 70 games, I don't know. I don't know that that's the most appealing thing in the world to them. But there's also this. So the traditional thing with a DH is that you put an 8th and slugger as your everyday DH. That's actually changed a lot over the last day, 10 years. A lot of American League teams now use the DAH as a place to park position players

and give guys days off from playing the field. So you do like to have flexibility with that D8 spot instead of being locked into one guy having to be your DH you know, for 140, 150 games the season. Now, look, if you have it, David Ortiz or an Edgar Martinez, yeah, but otherwise, it's nice to be able to mix and match with that D.H. role. So I think from a national perspective, this actually can help them. I mean, I think actually from a baseball perspective, you could argue this is a good thing for the Nats because the Nats are going younger.

They're trying to get guys who are more positionally versatile, and Zerman doesn't check either one of those boxes. Him coming back wouldn't have been a bad thing, but it's also not the worst thing in the world if you're trying to rebuild your ball club and a guy in his mid-30s who's limited in terms of what he can do in terms of playing time and can only play first base is no longer on your team. So, you know, he goes out having had a nice final season with the Nazi slug 471 in 2021. And he had a great final day as a national player. That last day of the regular season.

Right. Sox over third the game against the Red Sox. That was a great send-off. He gets pulled in the top of the eight-ditching, yeah. It was emotional. It was very emotional. I'm glad he had that moment. I'm glad the team recognized that it made sense to give him that moment.

Yeah, no doubt. And he cried. And, you know, that's the kind of thing. Like, he never did. Like, he was this stoic, stone-faced guy. But to see him break down like that was a pretty special moment. So that he got that final moment is a really cool thing. Real quickly.

Who is the leading candidate for the, you know, to be the more regular D.H for the Nats this year? Well, I don't know that they have an obvious one. If I had to label one person, it probably would be Yadiel Hernandez who can play the outfield, but he's much more of a hitter than he is a glove guy. But again, I think we're probably going to see Davey Martinez rotate that spot. So like, for instance, Josh Bell is the everyday first baseman, but the Nats have a catcher who they've tried at first base in Riley Adams, who did well as last season went on. So I think you could see plenty of games for which Adams is the first baseman and Bell is the D.H. Or Bell is the first baseman and Adams is the D8. So I think it's going to serve the

Nats well to have flexibility with that D8 spot. But I'd say probably a Yadde L. Hernandez. Maybe O'Reilly Adams, if he's doing well, end up being your primary D.A. Well, and like what you said on a day in which they may want to give Soto a break from right field, he could D.H. on that given day. Yeah, absolutely. So it's, I mean, I think it's a good thing. These pitchers at bats are awful. They are non-competitive. They're not entertaining. I think the extent to which there's increased strategy because of pitchers batting gets overstated. There's still plenty of strategy without pitchers batting. And I think this is good for baseball. So are we not? So all of the strategy, like we're not going to see a lot of sacrifice buntz anymore? Those beautiful sacrifice buntz. No. Stop seeing a lot of those anyway. But, yeah, like, people talk up, people wax poetic about, like, the double switch as as if it's like this religious experience.

I mean, okay, fine. Maybe you don't see as many double switches. Like, I think we'll all be okay. But I'm being, I'm being serious. Like, I don't know the data here, but I would guess, right, that sacrifice buntz are like three to one in the National League over the American League or something like that. Am I right or wrong? Yeah, no, you're right.

Because teams aren't having non-pitchers sacrifice bun because the value of the sacrifice bun has never been less. So you remove pitchers from the equation. And, yeah, the sacrifice bun is a dying species. What about intentional walks to get to a pitcher? We won't see that either. Those could be down. Davey last year had this bizarrely fixation of batting the pitcher ace. Thank God you're not going to see that anymore.

Yeah, I mean, so a lot of these things are going away. I can only imagine how you probably killed them for that on your podcast. Oh, my God. I couldn't stand that, yeah. All right, back to Zim for a second. What are the moments you'll remember more than any others? Well, I would say a few. The walk-off homer in the first regular season game at the National Park is really special.

The two homers you referenced in the 2019 postseason, especially the one of Garrett Cole. That's game one of the world series. That was basically the dead center. Cole at the time was viewed as this incredible pitcher, and then that got to him in that series. So I think that always sticks with me. But I tell you, this might be not an obvious one,

but you brought it up. Him preserving that Annabal Sanchez no-hitter in NLCS game one in 2019. That was such a great moment. And, you know, it's the kind of thing, like, here you have an older player. So the old man makes a diving stab of a liner by Tommy Edmund in the latter innings of a no-hit bid by a starting pitcher in Game Wood of an NLCS. Like, that's about as clutches it gets when you think about it. And every no-hitter, it feels like has a defensive gem.

So I remember seeing that and being like, my God, Sanchez is going to do it. He's going to throw a no-hitter. Now, he ended up not doing it, but he came really close. He pitched a great game. And Zimmerman making that cast. I just thought it was such a cool thing. So I think those are the moments that stand out the most. You know, that Annabelle Sanchez's performance was like,

I don't think he threw one pitch over 82 miles per hour. It was one of my favorite games of that whole postseason. Because, you know, it's game one. They had just won the dramatic fifth in deciding game at Dodgers Stadium, which to me, that whole 2019 thing, and I was telling, I was talking to Zuckerman about it this morning. Like, I still can't get over. an image that will, from that postseason, I think one of the most lasting images is Clayton

Kershaw in the dugout after giving up the back-to-back homers. After he had gotten the key out in the seventh and they put him out there in the eighth, and he gave up the back-to-back on two pitches to Soto and Rendon. I forget which order it was. And all of a sudden, he was in the dugout all by himself. And then obviously Kendrick with the Grand Slam. you know, ended up winning it. But the Sanchez pitching performance was such a brilliant, like, mind pitching performance

because it was not overpowering by any stretch of the imagination. No, not at all. And Annibal Sanchez had such a turnaround in 19. Earlier in the season, he was really bad. And then he ended up being quite good. And then he goes out there, start that series. And look, he's not the guy you wanted starting that series. but he was so good on that night.

And then incredibly the next night, Max Scherzer was arguably better. You had these two incredible postseason pitching performances by these two guys to begin what ended up being a dominant series for the Nationals. Yeah, that was a special night. That was an incredible run. And, you know, it's so funny,

the Nats were playoff flops for so long, but because their last playoff appearance ended in the greatest way, you can sort of look at the flop. as part of the journey. You know, like had the Nats won the World Series Day in 2012 and then had the playoff disappointment, we'd look at things differently.

We'd look at them as like in Atlanta Braves of the last decade. But because the journey ended with the championship, it's like you see it as, ah, you see they were learning to win, you know. So the results drive the narrative. It's always kind of funny to me how that is. But that was a magical run. And thank goodness they won that championship, because we would look at the last decades of the Nats a lot differently

had they not won that day? Well, I'm sure this can be said about a lot of titles and a lot of titles where you, you know, it was incredibly satisfying if you were a fan of the team because of all of the pain that you went through in the playoff pain. I mean, the loss to the Cardinals, the lost lead to the Cardinals in game five in 2012, you know, the loss to the Dodgers in game five at home, et cetera, et cetera. But, you know, there's this like incredible fine line. Like, they're down 3-1 and facing Josh Hader in the wild. card game. And Zuck reminded me that was another Zimmerman moment because there's two

outs. And Zimmerman, you know, fights off that, that pitch and ends up with a single to center and two batterers later, it's Soto knocking him, you know, knocking Rendon and whoever it was or came into pinch run for Zimmerman, I think. But the bottom line was they were with, they were and out basically away from being done against one of the best relievers in the game. And you mentioned the like the Caps run two. I mean, they were down 2-0 and on the verge of going down 3-0 in the first series against Columbus. And they ended up coming back and winning that. And hockey is so much more random.

I mean, it could have easily been over in the first round. But I guess every team, every fan of teams that make these runs, and I cared much more about the Nats run that I did the Caps run, as you know. But anyway, so the face of the franchise thing is interesting. I did a call segment this morning because I didn't want to do kind of the, you know, the, all right, where does he rank on the all-time list of whatever? So I did, who right now is the next face of any of the four professional sports teams franchises? Like, who is who's the next face?

The easy answer is, like if you take Ovechkin out of the equation because he's in the twilight of his career, because I agree with you, there's no doubt that Ryan Zimmerman was the face of the franchise, even though Max Scher was a better player and there were better players along the way. He was the face of the franchise. But take Juan Soto out of the equation. Who's the next face of any of these four franchises? Well, as soon as our team gets a franchise quarterback, that's guy becomes the leading contender.

Until that happens, it hasn't happened. I mean, I would say it's being stand right now, Terry McCloren. I think he has the chance to be the modern-day art monk, and there's nothing to suggest that, you know, he's going to sort of fall off in terms of his behavior or in terms of him not being a productive player. I mean, if he's been as productive as he has been over his first three seasons with the merry-go-round, the team is at a quarterback, then there's no. reason why he can't continue to be productive. So, I mean, I think McLaurin would be the best candidate,

but even he's not a perfect candidate because, you know, receivers aren't usually the faces of NFL teams, although the really good ones can certainly be prominent faces on NFL teams. But, yeah, I mean, the caps have other good players, but Ovetkin kind of outshines them all, and the good younger players on the caps aren't good enough to where you say, like, they're obvious candidates to be faces of the team. The Wizards are, um, mess and we have no idea what's going to happen with Bradley Beal. And the Nationals, if you take Soto out of the mix, you know, they're trying to find other potential young players who could be potential

franchise bases. And, you know, the Nats do have some interesting guys in the minors who could end up being really good Major League players, but we're not there yet. So we can't just christen them. So it's almost by the fault, but I'd say probably Terry McClure. Is there anybody else on the commanders that you would think of? Well, up until a week ago, I would have said Jonathan Allen, but, you know. Okay. So you're making a point that I was just curious whether or not you were going to say it.

A year ago, if I asked you that question, there would be an obvious answer, and it wouldn't be close. Like, look, Soto would be an answer, and Beal would be an answer. But there would be an obvious answer on the Washington football team, and it would be, immediately come to your mind. It would immediately come to my mind. And we wouldn't even think twice about who the face of the franchise was moving forward. And you didn't even think of it. And I didn't think of it initially this morning on radio. And then I thought about it like literally as I was going to break. And we're not even mentioning his name. And that person is Chase Young. I mean, it's like, it's amazing. The way the discussion about him

and the way the perception of him is changed in one year. And by the way, it's not all injury-related. It's not because he tours ACL and he's rehabbing from an injury. I would argue it's primarily not injury-related. I think a lot of people were put off by the season he had and the comments from the head coach who made it crystal clear that there were issues here. And so while everyone is still rooting for, for Chase Young, and Chase Young is far from a lost cause.

He has to re-earn the benefit of the doubt that he had at this time of year ago. You know, he had a great rookie season, but he had a bust of a second season, and it's not just about the torn ACL to your point. So, yeah, I mean, we need to see more. You know, like Terry McCorrin, all he does is have good seasons, okay? He doesn't cause drama. There are never any cryptic comments from head coaches about Terry McLaren. He only produces.

That's it. And that's what we want to see from Chase Young, and we didn't see it this year. So his stock is down. I mean, his stock has been devalued. Like, that's the truth about this thing. And there's a real on him this coming season to have a big season. And, you know, I hope he does it, but we'll see. I mean, he suffered that torn ACL relatively deep into the season.

I don't know that it's even a given he'll be ready for the start of this next season. But, yeah, I think he's viewed very differently than he was viewed 12 months ago. Yeah, agreed. It's funny, as you were talking, I'm just looking at Twitter and Chase Young's name was trending, which, you know, I guess happens a lot with, you know, based on my, what would appeal to me. But anyway, it doesn't appear to be anything newsworthy. No, he got, actually, I saw that pro football focus put out a tweet about the leading candidates for comeback player of the year for next year, and he was part of that tweet. So I think that might be more right. So I'll finish up by asking you the question that I asked Cooley and I asked this morning in a call segment. Because we're throwing around all the quarterback names

and all the possibilities, Rogers and Wilson and others. And we've talked about Deshawn Watson a lot on my shows. But not in the same way we talked about them last year. Where before all of the accusations, it was like I was all in on Watson. I was all in on Stafford, either one, because I didn't think Rogers or Wilson were real possibilities. So if, you know, the hypothetical includes sort of understanding that, you know, he's been rehabbed. I'm talking about mentally, you know, with whatever issue he had. Obviously, he had an issue.

He's healthy. He's cleared of some of these criminal complaints. There are 10 of those out there. He's eligible, meaning, you know, he's not going to be suspended. for a year plus, but maybe it's four or six games or whatever. And Houston is actively trying to trade him. Do you think Washington should make an aggressive run for him? Yes or no?

Yeah, 100%. If you feel good about where he's at legally, then I think you should do that. He's the best of the big guys out there by far in terms of the combination of age, talent, and what he can be. You know, like, you're getting a guy in his mid-20s who already has proven he can play at an elite level. And keep in mind his last season in which he played, he played at an elite level, despite the Texans having traded away DeAndre Hopkins. So, you know, this isn't someone who has to be surrounded by everything being just right, you know,

and he has to have a great running game. And he has to have all these great receivers. Like, no, he on his own can be great. So I would do that. I would, though, throw this into the mix. I think the due diligence with Deshaun Watson primarily, yes, has to do with this legal situation. And it is disturbing. And, you know, when you read the specifics of that with which he is accused, you know,

he's not just accused of blowing kisses at these massage therapy. No, he's accused of some pretty serious stuff. I feel like at times he's gotten kind of a passion. from people. Like, there's some serious stuff in those allegations. So you absolutely have to do your due diligence. But, you know, I wonder about this, too. One of the reasons he was supposedly upset with the Texans was that he didn't have a say in who the next general manager was. I don't know. That strikes me as kind of like, I get that he's, I get that the Texans have been dysfunctional. I do. But like, really, like, you have to have a say in who the GM of the team is?

So I just would want to be comfortable if I'm Ron Rivera with, you know, that this guy with the legal stuff aside isn't some problem, isn't some, you know, egotomaniac who has to have a say in everything and has to dictate everything. But if you're comfortable with those things, 100%. Deshaun Watson, the player is a really good player. Yeah, I mean, you haven't said what the, you know, the issues would be for a lot of people. I put it out on a Twitter poll and basically 80% said, hell yeah, and 20% said, hell no. I don't think I thought it would be 80%. Because I think a lot of people would say, no, this organization can't do this. This organization won't do this.

And they shouldn't do this because this guy, to your point, these were serious. Look, if he settles on these civil lawsuits, and we don't even know how the criminal complaints go, and obviously if he ends up going to jail because he sexually assaulted somebody, I mean, we're not having this conversation until he gets out of jail because Michael Vic got out of jail too.

Michael Vic was signed. I mean, everybody who's talented gets second chances. And there will be demand for him, by the way. It's just whether or not this team should be one of the teams that, you know, fall into the category of demand. And, you know, and I say yes because I just don't think that the PR outrage, which there would be and there would be, you know, all kinds of protests. and all kinds of threats from whatever.

It just, what's the point? Like, you can't get any worse. They wake up with negative PR. They wake up under siege because of the dumb shit they do. And so the only thing that for me, if I were them, I'd be thinking about is certainly improving my culture, which apparently they have. And, you know, and making sure that this place is a, but is a workplace that is a workplace that is, you know, not toxic for women and for, you know, anybody from a bullying, intimidation,

sexual harassment standpoint, of course. But after that, it's, I got to win. And by the way, I better win soon because this is a season ticket base that might be like at 20,000, 25,000. And it's going to start dwindling just based on this horrific, you know, name and branding rollout from now two weeks ago today. if they don't win big. So that should be the bottom line.

I just don't, if I were them, the negative PR would not phase me. I'd consider it and I'd consider how my response would have to be. And I certainly wouldn't have Dan talking about it. I'd have Ron up there, you know, or Tanya maybe, I don't know, but I wouldn't have, you know, Dan talking about it, but somehow it would be we're in the business of giving people a second chance. And, oh, by the way, and being really honest, we have to win, and he gives us a chance to do that.

Yeah, I mean, my understanding with the scenario you laid out is the legal stuff has been taken care of. Right. You know, the thing. So if that's happened, I mean, yeah. That's not going to stop. That won't stop the barrage of negative PR if you trade for Deshawn Watson. Understood. Yeah.

Understood. But I think you do have a reasonable and plausible out in saying, hey, look, it's been dealt with legally. especially if some of these women agree to settlement, you say, well, if the victims in this or the alleged victims in this have agreed on settlements that have moved on, then why can't the rest of us? The danger is trading for him with everything still up in the air, and then it turns out the thing were as bad if not worse. Of course. But that's what you can't do. But if the stuff gets dealt with legally, you know, you're not the police. Like, you're a football team.

So go ahead and trade for him. Obviously, it would be imperative that he behaves himself with you. and, you know, he's not going to Aspen with Dan and things like that. But like, if you get him and he behaves himself and he's what he can be, it's a steal. It's an absolute deal. And I don't know how you don't do it. I mean, it's just funny how last year before all this stuff came up, how many people were against Deshawn Watson or Matt Stafford or anybody.

It's like, let's build it, you know, inside out. And, you know, the run one block at a time. I mean, I've mocked that for over a year. It's like, no, you don't just then, after you've built everything, go out and get the quarterback. If there's a chance, and really the Deshawn Watson thing was just so unique. You know, it was a player under contract, 25 years old, and there's something going on there with this Jack, whatever his name was.

I can't think of his last name right now. And Easterby, thank you. And you got a chance. Are you out of your mind? and then, you know, obviously all of the, you know, the massage stuff started. You know, it's the Kyler Murray thing is an interesting thing right now. And I just talked to Kooley about it. I mean, there's a lot of smoke there about the kind of person and the kind of teammate he is.

I mean, Mike Garifolo from NFL Network just, you know, had a report that this guy wouldn't go back into the game at the end of the playoff game. And Colt McCoy said you should go back in and he wouldn't do it. And, you know, the boy, I just said to Cooley, if the Cardinals, after year three of two Pro Bowls, an offensive rookie of the year season said, we want to trade them? I would say, I don't get it. Why? It's something can't be right here. It would be a massive red flag. I mean, with any of these guys, look, it's the Donovan McNabb lesson.

it's the Alex Smith lesson, and every situation is different, but you always have to say to yourself, if this guy's so good, why is the team willing to trade him? Now, look, from a football standpoint, it'd be awfully hard to say no to Kyler. He's young, he's on a rookie contract. I do think he's really good, but this stuff that has come out is disturbing.

And I also think about the stuff that's come out this way. You know, that stuff that Chris Mortensen put out last Sunday, obviously that was linked to him by someone from within the Cardinals. So, like, what's up with that, that things are bad enough to where your own coworkers are putting stuff out there to a guy like Chris Mortensen to make you look awful? And that Morton's stuff made Tyler look terrible with the way that Mortensen's phrasing. So, no doubt. I mean, you know, so much of this is about due diligence and feeling comfortable with the person you're getting.

But, you know, there's a reality here of if a person is available, he's going to be available for a reason. And so it's just about sort of managing that reason. And all right, he can be had. There's a reason that he can be had. But if we get him, can he do well with us? And that's the way you have to look at it. You know, we're in this. The beggars cannot be choosers.

And we are the beggars, unfortunately, when it comes to get the quarterback. Yeah, I mean, the McNabb, the Alex Smith stuff, it's apples and oranges. This is a three-year quarterback who's picked number one just in 2019. And a team has him under contract or control of them for two more years, and he's coming off two Pro Bowl seasons and a season in which he led the team to the playoffs and you're going to trade him. Major red flag. Chris Mortensen, you know, reporting that the sources say he was self-centered, immature,

and a finger pointer. The Garifolo story, you'd really have to do a lot of due diligence. By the way, I don't put him in that same category of Rogers and Wilson and Watson. I think he's in whatever category maybe Matt Stafford was. last year. He's in that next category. He's before Jimmy G. I'm talking about football, from a football standpoint. But that's just me. But, you know, the other part of this, Al, is, and I was talking to Cooley about this, too, because somebody brought it up to me, a friend brought it up to me, he said, look, you know, you're Matt Stafford thing, and you were so in on

him, and he won the Super Bowl and whatever. But, you know, he got traded to the Rams. If Detroit had traded him. It was like Detroit would have been trading him to Detroit, you know, if they had traded him to Washington. And, you know, if Kyler Murray ended up here, or if Russell Wilson, a star, ended up here, you know, you have the whole issue of the owner and being a major star effer and all of the things that could go wrong again. But with that said, you know, at this point, the football people can't fear moving forward to try to get a great quarterback, even if that quarterback's already an existing star. Yeah, and look, if you are the football people, like, you're here to be able to handle stuff like this.

Like, the Rams, you look at what they were before McVeigh became their head coach. They had been a really bad team for a really long time. McVeigh changed everything. So the whole point with this Rivera era is for everything to be changed. All right. Now, is Rivera McVeigh? Well, he hasn't been so far, but, you know, you have to be able to change. things around. And you can't act out of fear.

Like, if you keep telling everyone who will listen, and Ron certainly does, that they're all in on trying to get a franchise quarterback this off season, you've got to pounce on the best situation that's available to you. And then the onus is on you to maximize who you get. And that's what they're going to need to do. Like, whatever they do is going to be flawed in some way. There's not going to be some gift from the football guys that's dropped on to you of this guy's perfect, this situation is perfect, this is guaranteed to work. Whatever you do is going to have some potential fatal flaw. So you need to manage it and you need to maximize whatever path you end up going down.

There's a real pressure on Ron and Scott and the coaching staff and the organization with whatever the approach ends up being to do the best that the team can with that approach. I mean, we haven't even talked about Congress or Beth Wilkinson, which is awesome. I needed a day off from it anyway. I'll end with this. Here on February 16th, give me the quarterbacks that are on the roster opening day. Taylor Heineke,

Mitchell Tribisky, and Malik Willis. I would suggest that if it's Mitchell, Trubisky, and Malik Willis, that there may not be a need for Taylor Heineke. But beyond that, that's where I am. I've been on Mitch Trubisky, Kenny Pickett. and potentially Taylor Heineke, although I'm not convinced that Heineke will be back. I'm not suggesting that he shouldn't be.

I'm just saying that if they were to draft a quarterback and they also brought in a veteran quarterback, not that Taylor Heineke is going to hurt you from a cost standpoint. I just don't know if you need three at that point. But I think that's where they're going to end up too, because as much as I would love, like Aaron Rogers or a Russell Wilson. And I learned last week that Russell Wilson would not be against Washington. But I just don't see either one of them being traded. I just don't see that happening.

The Deshawn Watson thing, he has a no trade clause. You know, I don't think he should be that picky. I think he should be just thankful that he's going to be allowed to play football again if that's the way it plays out. But I would definitely go for that. But it wouldn't surprise me if this organization, you know, if Tanya says to her husband and to Ron, we ain't doing that. But I just think ultimately we're going to end up with this. Tribisky's been the one I've been saying too.

and we're going to draft somebody at 11 or higher? I think that they would be open to trading for Deshaun. I think the biggest impediment to Deshaun is him not wanting to come here, him choosing another team. But going back to the Heineke thing, ever since you know who departed as a free agent after the 2017 season, our team has started at least three different quarterbacks in every season. To me, you need three guys with whom you're comfortable starting.

So I think you do need, even if you get a Trubisky and a picket or a Willis, I think you still keep Heineke. Like, you need three guys. This team, this organization needs three guys. So I would 100% keep Taylor, especially given, like you said, the cost, he costs you nothing. Like, it's actually one of the better bargains on the team. Would he get paid versus what he can be? So I think you keep Heineke and they do seem to really like Trubisky for whatever reason. But I think if you want to give him.

get people excited. And also, if you're trying to do this right, like you want to get someone with upside, I know what people keep saying about the draft, but I do think especially with Ticket and Willis, there's real upside. And if everything works out right, the guy could end of being really good. So I would advocate for that. I'm much more interested in drafting someone or giving up assets to move up to draft someone than I am in giving up assets for Jimmy Garapolo, who by the way, you probably would have to extend. You know, like I just, that to me, doesn't make a lot of sense, and there's limited upside with him. Go with the play that offers more potential upside and a draft choice to do that. Yeah, I'm with you on that. And by the way,

real quickly on Taylor Heineke, I actually think that he is, you know, somewhere in the middle of the pack of backup quarterbacks in the NFL. So having him as a backup, I would be thrilled with that. I'm just saying that if you end up with Tribisky and drafting somebody, you may not need him is your number three. But you're right. They've needed a lot of quarterbacks over the years. I'm totally with you. Look, I kind of felt that way about Derek Carr. I'm not a massive Derek Carr fan. I would rather have Derek Carr than Jimmy Garoppolo. Don't get me wrong. But Derek Carr's not going anywhere either. I mean, again, like if you have somebody that is good, you know, and top half, it's always been this top half of the league thing for me because that's hard to find too when you

have one. And by the way, we did have one for a couple of years. And we had one that was better than just top half of the league. But we don't need to spend any time talking about you know who. But I think one of the things, and I was talking about this maybe a week or two weeks ago, I think last year was probably the time in which after they failed on Stafford, they actually should have gone and gotten Trabisky if they really liked them because there may be some competition for Trabisky this offseason. And I'm being serious here because this year it seems like there are many more teams that are quarterback desperate than maybe there was last year.

And so you might not get Trabisky even if you want them. So they probably should have done it last year when there was very little interest in him and he had to sign a backup deal to back up Josh Allen and Buffalo. But we'll see. I think that's essentially what they're going to end up with, more likely than not, going into next year. And hopefully they land on the guy in the draft that ends up being the guy. You know, more likely than not, he won't be based on odds.

But, you know, hopefully they hit on the one out of three or one out of four that actually ends up being really good. Yeah, I mean, I do think that the draft being viewed, the way it's being viewed as not being great for quarterbacks could help them because they may not have to trade up all that much, if at all, to get ticket or Willis. I mean, some of the mocks have tickets falling to them at 11 or Willis falling to them at 11. So, you know, that could actually end up working in their favor. But, yeah, I mean, this is not about trying to get someone who's better than Taylor Heineke. This is not about trying to get someone who's decent. This is about trying to get someone who's great.

I mean, we've all had that lesson shoved in our faces with what we all just saw in the NFL playoffs. And so you really have to be thinking in those terms, that's why I like this, you know, the Trubisky stuff and this Garofalo stuff and this Carson Went stuff, like, it's interesting, but are any of those guys offering you a real shot at having greatness of quarterback? And if the answer is no, then what exactly are we doing here? So I think the draft is something to really be looking at. But I tell you, man, a lot of the indications seem to be that this team wants to

address quarterback before the draft. So we may advocate for that. I don't know that they're thinking that. Now, maybe they do both. Maybe they get a veteran and then they go ahead and draft someone too. But I don't know. I could see them doing the Garofalo thing. Like that kind of strikes me as something they might end up doing.

So we'll see. Yeah. I don't. Boy, I hope that's not the route they take. Why do you think that? Because I don't have a real gut feel that Garoppolo would be a target for this group. I could see them doing it because it's someone, it's like the Alex Smith thing of, well, he's a winner and he's been in two of the last three NFC championship games,

and he's someone who is available. And I think that there is motivation on their part. to try to address quarterback now as opposed to three months from now, two months from now, whatever it is. I don't like it, but I could see that happening. I could see that being the thinking, especially with this whole thing of, we need to win next year. You know, Ron has said, we need to start to take that next step forward. It's more plausible that you take the next step forward with a veteran in Garapolo than you do with a rookie, even though long term the rookie offers for upside, and I think would be the better play. All right, I lied, because I

have not heard your thoughts on this, but you and I are the same in which, you know, this was very important to us, this football team. And I'm just curious as to what two weeks ago, 2222, in the announcement of the name and the uniforms and the butchering of the patch, the crest, you know, I had Jason Wright on the radio show and I just told him, I said, the dates are wrong. Are you going to fix it? Well, apparently they may be on the verge of fixing it. somebody sent me something where they were using Roman numerals on it out at the Super Bowl. But as someone who was, this was near and dear to his heart, this football team, did 2-22 change your thoughts?

What was your reaction on that day? Yeah, the other thing with the crest too is people now are ordering like sweatshirts with the crest. Yeah, there are no years on it. I've seen that too, yeah. Yeah, so that's kind of interesting. but yeah so look the uh the two dot two dot two two thing i've had endless fun with on the podcast i play i play the announcement the lackluster low energy zero pizzazz announcement on the today show over and over again because i still can't yeah i still can't believe that that's what they

came up with after 19 months that was it in an empty fedex field craig melvin kreg melvin was the most excited out of those four people on that day at that day Jason Wright looked like he had hypothermia sitting in the empty FedEx field on that morning. But yeah, so the announcement was a complete debacle. I think we all get that. I don't personally hate the name commanders. I'm not one of these people who thinks like it's this wretched name, and I can never be a fan of the team again.

I'll always be a fan of the team. I think what is most bothersome, and I get this from a lot of people, and I think this is maybe part of what John Riggins was saying on his deal a week or so ago. I think there are a lot of people who still don't like slash understands last except that the name is in Redskins to begin with. Like, I get that it's gone and it's never coming back, but it is debatable whether that name should have ever changed. And, you know, especially when we watch the NFL playoffs and we see Chiefs fans, Tomahawk chopping, and like it feels like so few people even bring that up, especially when you still see something like the Chicago Blackhawks and their logo, you say to yourself,

should Redskins ever have changed, especially with, you know, there are Native American groups who are angry that the name Redskins went away. Like, there is a conversation, even though some people like to say there isn't. No, actually, there is a conversation. It is debatable, and it's never been clear what exactly the right path with this thing is. And so I think a lot of people look at this, and then they see how the team has handled this, and they see the new name, and they see all the steps with this, and they say, why did we have to change to begin with? And I think that is a perfectly reasonable, logical, acceptable way of looking

at this. And it doesn't mean that, like, you could never be a fan of the team again, but I think it's okay to ask questions about this. And, you know, I still come back to this, too, with all the workplace misconduct scandal stuff and the Dan Snyder stuff, if Dan had not had the falling out with the three disgruntled

minority partners, and Fred Smith, FedEx had not put out that statement in July in 2020, would the name still be Redskins? Like, if not for that statement, if not for Fred Smith, turning heel on Dan, would the name of the skins still be the skins? And if the answer is yes, then you really have to say to yourself, so the only reason this changed is because Dan had a falling out with Red Smith, White Shore, and Robert Rothman. Like, that's why the name of the

team is no longer Redskins. Fred Smith took advantage of the political and social climate in the summer of 2020, and he pulled a gangster move. But I think you could argue the name of the team would still be Redskins, if not for that falling out. And I don't think that that fits right with a lot of people. Well, I think, you know, the way it played out you just described is true. I think a lot of things were getting swept up in the summer of 2020 in the wake of the George Floyd murder in Minneapolis. And I don't know whether it was Fred Smith or other sponsors like Bank of America, PepsiCo. They were all coming. You know, they were all being pressured on this. And it was, you know, it was, it was the moment. It was the moment that they could move and, and move, you know,

know, without much repercussion as a major corporate entity. In fact, they were lauded for it, you know, as the country became super woke. And, yeah, look, I mean, you know, I've debated this for years on shows, and I think it's been very debatable. I think it's been offensive when people have said, you know, and referred to people who have debated whether or not the name should stay. the names that we would get called because none of the polling, none of the data actually supported that the name should go away. Whatever. I mean, they, Dan was not the communicator.

He was not the person to be able to finesse this keeping of a name through especially that period. But even before that, I mean, the never, never, ever, ever, you know, just stupid. I mean, you know, I had a conversation with people out there. I'm like, why not pursue a second non-pejorative definition in a dictionary? You can petition dictionaries for new definitions. There's a way to combat the number one argument, which is, you know, it's dictionary-defined racist. When, you know, it may have been, maybe have been that 100 years ago or 75 years ago, but it hasn't been for, I mean, I'm boring myself because I've said it so many times.

but it doesn't matter. It's gone. I think the Riggins thing is interesting because actually I don't know that John ever felt super strongly about the name and I think that he was very empathetic towards Native Americans who did have a problem with it, just like our good friend Doc Walker was. I mean, Doc always referred to them as burgundy and gold, you know, but I think what hit Rigo and it was, you know, and I think it hit a lot of people was the realization. that the franchise that they played for or that many rooted for was actually gone. We now have kind of an expansion team environment, unfortunately, with the same goddamn owner. And it just was a depressing day. And then on top of it, by the way, was just the clumsy, awkward, you know, after all the time they had to plan for this day. I mean, good God, I thought people were going to fall off the stage at FedEx Field on the the Dan and the thing. That's where we did the pregame show on a stage that literally when we were on it, it felt like it was going to tip over. It was such a, it was such an embarrassment,

but that wasn't surprising given the Sean Taylor thing and everything else. I mean, that's just who they are. They're not very organized and creative. But I think for a lot of people, it was just a day in which it really did die because they were living in this interim period of Washington. And then it was like, wait a minute. that's not my team, that's not my uniform, and then it really became a reality. So I think, you know, I think I know this. They're targeting a much different, you know, potential future fan. That is a person that probably hasn't really grasped onto a team yet, and they're younger. I don't know that they did a good job with attacking that demo and trying to attract that

demo with the name or with anything else they did. I mean, that's a subjective thing, but that's who they're going after now. And the only way they're going to get those people is to win and be a contender and win big and be cool, I guess. Which I don't know that Commanders is. I don't know either. I mean, I've heard from a lot of younger fans who don't like this. My kids don't like it.

My boys don't like it. It's not like everyone over 60 hates it, but everyone under 30 loves it. So true. Most people don't like it. Now, to your point, and I think everyone gets this, if the team becomes great again, then all of a sudden commanders won't be so bad. Like, I think that's 100% the number one thing by miles. But, you know, this thing of like, oh, they put out black uniforms.

So everyone under the age of 30 loves what's going on. Oh, it's not that simple, you know? And by the way, I think they probably get that. Like, I don't think Jason Wright thinks magically everyone's going to like this. But look, they did not launch this in a very creative way, in a very imaginative way. And like you said, it's not surprising, but man, it really is something when you think about it.

This was built up for nearly two years. You had so much time to figure this out. You're in Washington, D.C. You have a military theme. You are surrounded by military locations, and the team has a relationship with the military. Every year the team pounds you over the head with this salutes of service thing.

There are so many things that could have been done on February 2nd. And instead, we got what we got. and I just, I still cannot get over that. That, like, that's what happened on that day. That is amazing to me that that's what happened. But it's what they are. I mean, it's the, it's the tailor sitting in front of the porta-potties. It's Dan and a sweatsuit.

I mean, it's, the whole thing is just, whatever. I, I, um, coolly, you know, earlier said, because I said to him, I go, you don't even watch the games anymore. Like, you don't have the same level of. And he goes, you try to put that on everybody else because it's the way you feel. Well, I've said it. I mean, I am where I used to be a 10 in terms of my enthusiasm and my passion for this team, I'm like at a three now.

I just am. But I was at a five already, a five or a six already before the name was lost and before, you know, the last two years because it just was so awful. I mean, I think you know who leaving town really did it to me. I'm kidding. I love it. I love it. All right.

This is always fun to do with my good friend Al Galdi, host of the Al Galdi podcast, co-host with Mark Zuckerman of the Natsch chat podcast, and there's one out today talking about Zimmerman at Al Galdi, of course, on Twitter. I'm sure the podcast is going well. I know you're probably killing it, which is great. Let's talk soon. I always enjoy it, man. Thank you so much for having me.

All right. That's it for the show today. Back tomorrow with Tommy.