The Kevin Sheehan Show - Does Sam Howell "Deserve" To Start?

Episode Date: July 19, 2023

Kevin opened the show by answering a tweet that asked Kevin if he thinks Sam Howell "deserves" the chance to be the 2023 Week 1 starter. Kevin was then joined by Andy Pollin on the eve of what should be an owner vote to ratify Josh Harris as the new owner of the Washington Commanders tomorrow in Minneapolis. The boys looked back on the 24-year Snyder disaster and looked forward to the Harris era.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Chean Show. Here's Kevin. Ownership change Eve. That's today. We're on the eve of a change in ownership.

Hang the stockings, get to bed early, kids. Tomorrow's a big day. More on that coming up in a few minutes. Andy Poland will join me on this show today. We will talk past, present, and future. Andy coming up in the next segment. The show today presented by the Circa Million and the Circa Survivor Pools at the Circa Hotel and Casino and Sportsbook out in Las Vegas.

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Incredible sports book, the biggest and the best in Vegas, and enter the Circa Million and the Circa Survivor pool. All right. Before we get to Andy, end a lot on the big day tomorrow. I wanted to read this tweet from Jason to start the show. He wrote, you don't seem like you're a big fan of Sam Howl,

but I'm wondering if you think he deserves the chance he's getting. If you think he deserves it, don't make up your mind until you've seen him play. So Jason, I'm really, reading your tweet because of the first part, not the second part. The second part where you wrote, if you think he deserves it, don't make up your mind until you've seen him play. If you've been listening closely, I haven't made up my mind yet. And I won't until I see him play a lot.

You know, not one game at the end of a season in a meaningless environment. Not a few games. Look, many people made up their minds on Gino Smith after several. years and then look at him last year at 31 years old or whatever he is. It doesn't happen often, but the position of quarterback is so dependent on so many things unless you're just elite. You know, if you're just one of those elite guys, it doesn't matter as much. But for everybody else, it's system, it's coaching, it's supporting cast, it's patience on behalf of the franchise. And before any of that, before any of that, it's just the opportunity.

And that's why the first part of your email, Jason, is worth considering a little bit. And I am going to consider it a little bit. When you wrote, you don't seem like you're a big fan of Sam Hal, but I'm wondering if you think he deserves the chance he's getting. First of all, it's not that I'm not a fan or a fan of Sam Hal. I'm not either at this point. I'm intrigued. I'm hopeful, but he hasn't done anything to make me a fan or turn me off from being a fan.

There's nothing really there to sink teeth into at this point. I know some of you really loved him at the end of last season or loved him at Carolina. I thought he was pretty good at North Carolina, perhaps more of a guy who benefited from the system he was in. He was not my favorite quarterback coming out in the 22 draft. I never considered him to be worthy of a super high draft choice. I thought Pickett was really that guy. And I actually kind of liked Malik Willis. So don't take my word for this stuff.

Although it's early on Malik Willis as well. Apparently he had a very good spring in Tennessee. I didn't think he'd fall to the fifth round, but I'm just not worked up one way or the other about Sam Hal at this point. He's a mystery. He's got some arm talent. he's got some mobility. But so did Joe Webb.

So did Mike Kafka. So did Bryce Petty. So did Brett Hundley. So did Josh Dobbs. So did Will Greer. And a long list of guys taken later in the draft over the last, you know, 10 to 12 years, 15 years. It's a long list. Now, other than Greer, you know, the West Virginia quarterback, few others.

had, I mean, Brett Hundley, Bryce Petty had a bit of a brand playing for, you know, those Baylor teams. Brett Hundley, I always liked Hundley, actually. I thought he was going to be a good NFL quarterback. And I think he's still in the league as a backup. And he started some games I remember in Green Bay. But Greer, you know, was at one point thought to be kind of a first round caliber guy. But, you know, a few others have had the brand recognition, I guess you could call it, that Sam Howe had going into that draft because of the expectations the year before were so high for him. I mean, they weren't, you know, when you think about brand recognition for quarterbacks that get taken late in drafts, like Heisman trophy winners, like Troy Smith, you know, he got picked in the

fifth round by Baltimore out of Ohio State, you know, after winning the Heisman trophy. More people knew Troy Smith than Sam Hal. But Sam Hal was a known, you know, but for me, look, Sam Howe hasn't earned a decision on whether or not to be a fan. That's for me. But you ask me, Jason, if I think he deserves the chance he's getting. That's an interesting question to me. My answer is no. No, I don't think he deserves the chance he's getting. But deserving the chance and getting it are two different things altogether. For me, to, think after one NFL start that he had earned the chance to be labeled quarterback one heading into his second year. I'd have to forget that they didn't even want to play him in the Dallas game or didn't want to start him in the Dallas game.

They didn't think that he had earned the chance before the Dallas game. But Taylor Heineke didn't want to risk a free agent deal, didn't want to risk injury. and talked them into playing howl against the Cowboys. What he did in his one NFL regular season game against Dallas, okay, it was not bad, but it was a meaningless game against Dallas. And it wasn't enough, in my opinion, to earn the starting job designation the following season. So no, he didn't earn it.

I don't think he earned it. If all season long we were hearing what, We conveniently heard when the season ended about him that he looks really good. The coaches can't wait to give him an opportunity in a real game. And then maybe prior to the Dallas game, we heard, you know, first of all, it was a no-brainer for them to start him. Rivera, you know, immediately when they were eliminated from postseason, said, Sam Howl's going to start the season finale. He's come a long way since training camp.

There's something there. You know, this game is a good chance to see what we. seen in practice sort of come to life in a real game. If I had heard that, maybe I'd feel differently about whether or not he's earned the chance, but I can't erase their indecisiveness over playing him. I can't erase their obvious concern over his readiness to start a meaningless game at the end of the year, which by the way was reported by Logan Paulson that week before he got name starter. No, you're not going to convince me that he's earned the right to be the number one guy at this point.

But that's different, much different from getting the chance to be the number one guy. That's different than earning it. They didn't have many options. There wasn't a QB on the roster last year that you could sell as a viable returning starter. They didn't have the ability to chase a big name in free agency or, via a trade because of the ownership situation being in flux. So him getting that chance, you know, I think makes some sense given their situation. I don't think they would, let me just make this point.

I don't think they would just give him that, you know, QB1 label and give him the opportunity that they're going to give him if they actually thought he sucked. You know, despite their situation and the fact that they didn't have many other options, I don't think that if they thought he really couldn't do it or there was no chance he could do it, that they would have, you know, given that situation or that designation to him. You know, I imagine that they've had some conversations about going 8, 8, and 1 with Taylor Heineke, and they can see a situation where, you know, Sam Howell, if he can come along far enough, quickly enough that a bigger armed version of Taylor Heineke with a good supporting cast

could keep them competitive again in 2023. I'm sure they've made the case to themselves that they've got a bigger armed version of Taylor Heineke, or at least they hope they do. They obviously have hoped to sell with Sam Hal because his name is familiar, and we haven't seen him do anything wrong yet. He's a source of hope for the position and the team. But they didn't have anybody else they could present in that way. You know, the opportunity for Hal, as we've discussed, is very rare.

We talked about this a few weeks back. You know, Ben Standing elaborated on it in his story. From 2010 to 2021, 74 quarterbacks were drafted on day three, like Hal was. Only three of the 74 have become starters or near starters. Kirk Cousins, Dack Prescott, and Tyrod Taylor, who's not a starter, but has started games. The three of them are the only day three QBs during that period of 12 seasons to start more than 30 games in their career. That's the equivalent, essentially, of two seasons. The other 71 out of the 74 are essentially gone or backups in the league at this point.

Now what's interesting is to consider is the 70 are the 71 out of 74 essentially not you know did they not turn into legitimate NFL quarterbacks because they weren't good enough or is it because day three quarterbacks don't get the chances to prove that they can do it?

You know that is, that's always been part of the conversation, right? I mean, we know that first round guys, second round guys, for sure, always get the benefit of the doubt. They're always going to get more chances because of what was invested. So do we see more day one guys making it, you know, by a massive, you know, difference in percentage hit, you know, first round guys make up most of the really good quarterbacks in the league and have for a long period of time, is that because they got all those chances and the day three quarterbacks didn't? I don't know the answer for sure. But I suspect that both things are true, that the opportunity that Sam Hal is getting is rare because the higher

drafted guys get the first chance and get more chances and they get the benefit of the doubt, etc. But it's also probably true that day three guys got picked on day three for a reason that they just weren't as good. Cousins, Prescott, and Taylor, you know, showed somebody something along the way that afforded them the opportunity to play. Now injuries, you know, they do play a role in the opportunities that some of these quarterbacks get. And with Cousins, that's true. With Prescott, that's true. But they did something that led key decision makers to keep them on the roster so that they had that chance when those injuries happened. You know, Ben, Ben as part of his writing on this a few weeks back, pointed out that Hal, who made his only start in week 18 last year, as we know, is the only QB in recent memory with such a scant resume who, absent an injury, was named a week one starter.

in his second season. Only Trevor Simeon got that chance with the 2016 Denver Broncos. So the opportunity for these guys is rare, and it could be a part of the reason that you don't see more of them in the league. And maybe someday that'll change. Who knows? But even more rare is that Sam is just the second guy to get this chance as a week one starter with just one. one previous start in his career. So it's going to be, you know, a bit of a litmus test to a certain degree. Washington, you know, I was going to say Washington is gambling. They're really not gambling on this because they don't have other obvious options or solutions, which is why this rare chance exists for Sam Howell, because they don't really have any other options. We'll see if he can make the

most of it and buck the odds. But to answer Jason's question, no, I don't think he's earned it. I don't know why anybody would think he's earned it. They didn't want to play him or they didn't want to start him in the season finale. They were concerned. He hadn't earned anything in their minds. They're selling it like he's earned it now because it's convenient. It doesn't mean, by the way,

that when he gets the opportunity to get more reps in practice to play with the starters, to play more snaps in preseason, and then to get the opportunities in regular season games, it doesn't mean that he won't grow into it. And they won't say at some point behind closed doors, because they'll act like they knew it all along, wow, he's really come along. So this could be the final day in full that Dan Snyder owns the team.

More likely than not, we're on the eve of his final day owning the team. Vote still looks good, I think, for tomorrow, and then we'll see how quickly the deal closes after the purchase. As I've mentioned for many months now, you know, the vote doesn't finalize it. the vote just ratifies Josh Harris as acceptable to own the team, then they've got to sign the final documents and wire the money. But that, I guess, theoretically could happen tomorrow after the vote, but it's more likely to happen on Friday. By the way, the team is holding an event on Friday at the stadium at FedEx Field. They're calling it training camps.

PEP rally. But there is some discussion that Josh Harris will make an appearance at FedEx Field. Tomorrow night, let me just remind everybody to come out and see me and everybody from the radio station at the bullpen next to Nat's Park. That is for our burgundy and sold party. Live music, beer, food trucks. I'll be there at 4.30 when the door is open. I would love for as many of you who are listening to come out, and please come up and say hello. There will be a lot of familiar faces, and there will be a lot of faces of people that I've talked to

or interacted with that I've never met. So this is a chance for that to happen. If it's convenient for you, come on down to the bullpen tomorrow, Thursday tomorrow, July 20th, doors open at 4.30 for our Burgundy and Sold. The other guys from the station will be there. I think Doc's going to be doing the evening show or the – I think he's doing the show after the Craig Hoffman show. So I think Doc will be down there.

There will be some players down there. The guys from 1067, the fan will be down there. It would be great to see you down there if you can make it. So I had Matt Paris from the Washington Times on radio this morning. he tracked down John Kent Cook for a story that he wrote. John Ken Cook, the son of Jack Kent Cook. John Ken Cook, you know, was not the seller of the team in 1999. It was actually the trustees of the Jack Kent Cook Foundation.

John Kent Cook was a bidder on the team. But John Ken Cook had some really good quotes in the story, in the Matt Parris story, including, by the way, he thinks the team should change the name commanders. And he said he would have never relinquished the Redskins name. Funny because Len Shapiro was on the podcast with me on Monday. And Len said that in Cook, as in Jack Kent Cook's dying days, that he seriously considered changing the name. It was actually some good stuff from Matt Paris this morning on radio.

I started reading from various accounts of the same. sale 24 years ago. I started doing that and looking into that recently, but last night I got buried into about 45 minutes to an hour of reading various stories on the sale because there are some similarities with this sale, but there were things that I did not know. It's not maybe, maybe I knew them, but I had just forgotten them. John Kent Cook, according to the New York Times, got his offer all the way up to 680. million dollars. Now that was a hundred and twenty million short of Dan's offer. Matt told me today that John was upset because he wasn't given a chance to get back into it after he offered

680 when Dan offered 800 million and he thought as the son of the former owner he should have been given another opportunity to raise more money and make another offer. But I didn't remember John Ken Cook. Actually, Matt told me that his offer, his last offer, was $720 million. But the New York Times reported that it was $680 million. By the way, between the time that the owners voted Snyder in, 31 to nothing was the vote. More on that in a second. It took a month before they closed the deal with the trustees from the Jack Cancook Foundation. That's different than what you have now because it's just Dan and Tanya and his sister. You had a more complex situation in the sale of it.

It took a month after the voters ratified Snyder for Snyder to actually take over the team. That's not going to happen in this sale. So Snyder got a 31 to nothing vote from the owners when they were. ratified him as the new owner. And I was like, hmm, who didn't vote? Nobody didn't vote. Everybody voted because in 1999, in 1999, there were 31 NFL teams. There were 30 the year before, but 1999 was the first year, the Cleveland Browns were back in Cleveland as an expansion team. So there were 31 votes from 31 teams and 31 yeses for Dan Snyder. By the way, Charlie Casserly represented the Redskins in that vote on behalf of the trustees of the Jack Kent Cook Foundation.

And he voted yes. By the way, that was the first of what would become three seasons of 31 teams in the NFL. The 32nd team, the Houston Texans, arrived in 2002, and that was the first year of what is still the current division format of four divisions per conference. They had a nice round number of 32, and so they went with eight, 14 divisions. Before that, you had three divisions in each conference, and the AFC Central had six teams. teams because Cleveland played in that division when the expansion team went back to Cleveland. Here were some quotes I found from that day. This was Snyder. Buying the Redskins is the most wonderful thing that's ever happened to me. I'm a fan, a huge fan. It's that simple. I'm not

focused on the money. I'm focused on the opportunity and the dream. Hundreds of fans have written to me with their support and suggestions. Your most pressing issue is no different than mine. You want to win. We want to win. And we're going to deliver that. Closed quote. There was more, by the way, from Snyder, which I'll get to here shortly.

This was Commissioner Paul Tagliabu, who, by the way, was a Redskins fan, a Redskins season ticket holder, like Goodell was. Tagliabu lived in Bethesda. he was the NFL commissioner, and he said about Snyder, quote, he's the perfect person to pick up the Cook legacy and run with it. Dan Snyder has proved his medal in the business world at a young age, and he's a passionate NFL fan and a Redskins fan, closed quote. There were quotes from two different owners,

both of whom, by the way, served on the NFL Finance Committee at the time. Tom Benson, the owner of the Saints, did not like Howard Milstein's offer because he said it had too much debt in it. Howard Milstein was separated from Snyder. Snyder was essentially told, go get new investors because the league wasn't going to approve Howard Milstein as the owner because they thought, you know, Len Shapiro told us the other day, he was overly litigious. But anyway, Tom Benson said, financially he's got it structured very strong, he's got good partners, and they put up a lot of upfront money. If there's a problem with revenues, they've said they're prepared to step in if they have to. He impresses me as a team player. He knows our rules and regulations. Once he grasped what we wanted, he went out and got it done.

He's going to be a good partner for us. Close quote. Robert Kraft was the finance committee chairman at the time, as the owner of the New England Patriots, before the Patriots won their first Super Bowl. He described Dan Snyder as, quote, passionate about the game. You don't have to worry about the new steward of the franchise. He's got, the only thing on his mind is winning. A unanimous vote doesn't happen very often in this league.

I have a bias for owners who are passionate and will put winning on the field above everything else. I wonder what the vote will be tomorrow. I would assume that it's going to be 32 to nothing. And I would assume that Dan and Tanya have to vote. Maybe they won't vote, but they should vote. They want it to be three quarters plus so that they can collect four and a half to fill you five billion net on this deal. The owners, 24 years ago, they were all in on Dan Snyder. But here was something that was interesting. John Kent Cook didn't say anything specifically about Snyder,

refused all interviews to talk about the new owner, but did put out a statement. I think, by the way, he had some reservations about Snyder from the jump. He was disappointed. He didn't get the team and he didn't keep it in the family, but I think he had reservations about Snyder, which is why he declined to comment specifically about Snyder. But he issued this statement, quote, this has been a long goodbye. As disappointing as it has been, it's also been very gratifying to hear how much my family has meant to the National Football League and Redskins fans. Dad would have been as overwhelmed as I am. Thank you to all. Hail to the great Redskins fans. Exclamation point.

John King Cook, by the way, according to the Washington Post, basically got 10% of the sale. That's what his dad left him. He inherited 10% of the sale price. And they guessed at that time, they estimated at that time, that minus a lot of the expenses that he had incurred, owning the team and then trying to buy the team, that he was going to net roughly $60 million off the transaction. Not bad. But, you know, as Len pointed out to us the other day, and I think many of you knew this, the proceeds from the sale went to set up a charitable trust to provide scholarships to impoverished and needy students and graduate students.

By the way, Snyder at the time said Casserly and notary and not. By the way, Snyder at the time said Casserly and or ever safe. Of course, Kasserly wasn't safe. And he apparently wrote to team employees indicating that they'll all keep their jobs and thank them for enduring and anxious and unsettling time. By the way, the other crazy part of this deal, this was in the New York Times also, the $800 million price, only $100 million and went up in cash. So there was a lot of debt in the deal. Now, I remember reading that it was $200 million in cash, $600 million in debt. But the New York York Times reported that Snyder, Mort Zuckerman, and Fred Drasner, who were his other investors, only had to put up $100 million in cash. The rest was debt. I mean, think about that, by the way.

A hundred million in. He obviously, you know, bought out Zuckerman and Drasner at higher valuations, brought in new investors, still owned, you know, 60% plus of the team. But a hundred million in, and I don't know how much of that was Dan's, but just call it 100 million, and he's going to get four and a half to five billion net out of this sale 24 years later. That's a 40 to 50x return. Not bad. Not bad. Tomorrow begins more likely than not the Josh Harris era, and it's going to be a rebuild job, that's for sure. They've got to build a customer base. They've got to improve their facilities and build new ones. They've got a new name and a brand that's been a disaster. And they've got a team that, you know, has continued to finish in last place a lot of the time. The team roster is

better than it's been in a while. But it's going to be quite the reconstruction. of this franchise, and I think they'll get all of the time they need. They're going to get a lot of honeymoon time. This is going to be a long grace period for Harris and his group of investors. All right, let's get to Andy Poland next right after these words from a few of our sponsors. All right, as promise, jumping on with me right now, is my good friend Andy Poland at Andy Poland One on Twitter. Andy hosts a show on ESPN 630 here in D.C.

And of course, Andy and I worked together for many, many years at 980, where Andy launched 980 all the way back in May of 1992, simultaneous with the announcement that they would start, you know, carrying the team's games. But Dan Snyder was not the owner then. It would take another seven years. for him to become the owner of the team. So here we are on maybe the last full day of Dan Snyder owning the team.

What are your thoughts? Well, it's about time, I guess, is what the best way to look at this. And, you know, I've been listening to you for the last few weeks about, you know, when did you first know, that this wasn't going to work? what were the early signs. And, you know, I was thinking about this, how early it occurred to me, hmm, maybe there's a problem here. And when he first took over the team, he did do interviews from time to time.

In fact, he did one during his first couple of seasons with Armand Ketian on real sports, something he would never do today. But he was asked taking over in May about the preseason, which was coming up, up in a couple of months. And he said something like, we're going to try to win every game. And I thought, hmm, you know, even the casual football fan knows you don't try to win exhibition games. Yeah.

So then there's that. And then they had a tackle by the name of Mo Eloan Eby, who had actually replaced Jim Lachey when Lill Shea got hurt in 92. So by 1999, he's still with the team. Wasn't very good, but, you know, had a journeyman. NFL career also was known for his collection of yellow laundry. So he got a lot of holding penalties, but still with the team. In the first exhibition game, they played Pittsburgh, and there was a touchdown pass that was thrown by the Redskins and was called back because of a Moe-Elewenebe

holding penalty. And two days after the game, Elinibi got cut. And I thought, hmm, that's odd, because you don't have to cut players early in training camp, and you need bodies. And here's a guy who's been with the team for six or seven years. You may cut him eventually. But that became sort of like, hmm, maybe this guy is a little bit more involved than he should be. Maybe he doesn't know as much about football as we think he does. And so those were some real early signs for me. Yes, so those were early signs.

But, you know, the question that I asked the other day, Because look, you and I, this was a big part of our lives before you got into broadcasting, long before I got into broadcasting. And I don't want to revisionist history for me. Like, it was very up and down. Like, I know there were moments where we were like, ugh. But I'm talking about the moment in which you thought it'll never happen. Like there's no chance as long as he owns the team.

You know, for the last six, seven years, I have basically, Tommy and I have done this thing where we've suspended reality. The reality being to have football conversations. The reality being, they'll never win as long as Dan Snyder owns the team. And I always have added the caveat, well, like if they got really lucky and drafted Peyton Manning. But even if they did that, Snyder would have ruined the relationship with the coach. something would have happened. But when was it that you had that moment where you realized he's so bad, he's so toxic, he's so incompetent, there's no chance that this organization will ever have like a legitimate chance to win and win big? Because I don't think it was the early days.

I'm glad you asked that. I can almost pinpoint the date. It was February of 2008. And I was driving to a Maryland basketball game with my son. And I heard that Jim Zorn had been named head coach of the team. There was going to be a news conference the following day. Now, this is before we knew really anything about Zorn. However, however, the name Jim Fossil had been out there for a while. Gibbs resigned, what, first, second week in January after they lost the playoff game to Seattle? Okay.

So the name Fossil surfaced within days of that. And we started to hear things like, well, Fossil wants to hire this guy who's been a long-time quarterback's coach in Seattle named Jim Zorn. Okay, all right, fine. Then they go out and they hired Zorn before they hired the head coach. And then you start to hear other things like, you remember, that was the last year that Mike Holmgren had coached Seattle. He was, it was for retirement years going into it. and Jim Mora Jr. was going to replace him. And as we later found out, Jim Moore Jr. said to Zorn,

hey, Jim, you can hang here for another year, but as soon as I become head coach, you're not even going to become quarterback coach here under me. So, you know, you get out while they're getting is good. So he goes there. And so now we're waiting for Spagnola as the Giants are in the Super Bowl. And once the Giants are out, you assume that Spagnola is going to become the head coach, Jim Spagnola.

Well, Spagnola turned them down. after he realized what a shit show it was after, you know, sitting with Danny and Benny at Dan's house. Well, they went through the Notre Dame playbook of how to hire a coach. And then they go out and they hire Jim Zorn. So I think at that moment, I said, oh, my God, this is a disaster. And not even knowing what a disaster Jim Zorn was as a coach, what an incompetent person he was for that job. So if you're asking me what the moment was, it was exactly that moment. I'm driving to a Maryland basketball game with my son in late February.

You know, it's funny about that you and I were doing the Monday morning quarterback show together for those years. And I remember Zorn's 6 and 2 start. And you and I were doing that show, and I think Rigo was doing it with us that year. Maybe he came in for part of it. I forget how that worked back then. Yeah, he did it. Yep, he did it without that year. But just to prove that I wasn't out and I still had belief,

I remember on that show insisting that this was a pretty good football team at 6 and 2 and we had something to be excited about and you were not excited about it. And Rigo was not. And Rigo wasn't either. Yeah. Yeah, I was with him. And you remember, in a couple of those games, he rolled the dice and he came up in his favor. Yeah. Yeah.

And again, this was a team that had been built by Joe Gibbs to run the football. ball. You had Clinton Portis with a lot of tread left on the tire, and the defense was good enough so that they were winning close games with a couple of close calls. Also, the narrative picked up that, hey, Zorn must be a really good play caller. And then, of course, he puffed out his chest and said, yes, you know, it just sort of comes naturally to me. And we would later boot him out of town with the swinging gate. Come on. I know. I, but Yeah, but I see, at that point for me, and I've already discussed this with Tommy on the podcast, but for me, it was, first of all, remember the year Tommy and I did the Zorn show and I asked Zorn if he felt like he needed to win in week two against the Rams. Coming off a win, by the way.

And I've never gotten a more angry stare. And he tried to rip into me when we went off the air and I just said, look, man, you just. got to town. You've been here for a year and a half. Trust me, nobody in my audience right now is thinking that that wasn't a fair question. And then it was a few weeks later that he was serving

up words like comply. But I talked about being, I remember I did the pregame show and then I stayed at the stadium for the Chiefs game in October of that year. And it was the first time I can ever remember

just an absolute sparse crowd. A, B, an absolute unenthusiastic crowd. And in a one-score game, the place emptied in the second half on a beautiful fall day when they were two and three. And I remember coming in the next day with Tommy and just saying, apathy has set in. This is the beginning of the end. If Snyder doesn't have some, you know, epiphany and fire Vinny and – but by the way, he did. and he hired Bruce and then, you know, it was the 2013

was kind of the next rock bottom. But anyway, that's interesting. You know, your point there is a good one in that it was the first time that Washington wasn't wooing people with money. Dan was able to, you know, convince anybody to come with money, overpaying every, you know, free agent by 30%,

you know, giving coaches all the money in the world, world, but Steve Spagnolo didn't want to have anything to do with this organization. Other coaches didn't want to have anything to do with Snyder. Fossil, and then, you know, and that started the rut, and look, he did attract Shanahan. He did with a lot of money. Rivera didn't have many choices. When they got to Gruden, you know, Gruden was, you know, the first ever kind of hot coordinator they hired because Zorn wasn't a hot coordinator and Spurrier was a college coach, you know, a known college coach. But yeah. Yeah, the thing, though, about the hiring of Shanahan, you got to realize that that's a double-edged thing where you bring in Bruce, too. And Bruce was not the Bruce that we knew

going out the door. Coming in the door, he had a decent reputation plus the legacy of his father. So, you know, while it was Spagnola being hired by Vinny, who he's probably looking across the table from and thinking, oh, God, I can't work with this guy. Now you have somebody with NFL chops, somebody who's got a name coming in. And we were sold that it was a package deal, right? Weren't we told that that basically Shanahan had approved the hiring of Bruce Allen? Didn't we hear that coming? Yes. Yes, we were. Yeah. So in that regard, it was like, it was more than money. It was like, okay, he finally learned his lesson after 10 years of Vinny that this boob can't run his franchise, and now he's going to get professional people into running. We thought that. I thought that. I thought that,

excited about Mike. I was a fan of Mike from afar. And to your point, we've said this many times before. It's not new. I mean, Bruce Allen coming in was considered to be a solid hire. Bruce had a very good reputation in the league as an administrator. There were people that questioned his football acumen and his football GMing ability. And, you know, but for us, it was, it's similar in that Dan's gone and it doesn't matter who's. coming in. It's not Dan. When Vinnie, when he finally got around to firing Vinny, it was like, at least they've got, you know, somebody in here who's actually a professional NFL executive.

Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. And also, I remember this. Bruce Allen was trotted around Radio Row at the Super Bowl, you know, just after he was, I've been on the job a few weeks or months. But it was after that season, after that Zorn second season. We were in Miami. Yeah, I guess so. And I remember asking him, I said, well, you know, Dan Snyder has been known to go with the scouting staff and the coaching staff to go look at players. Do you expect that to happen? And he looked at me like incredulous. Like, no, no, that's not going to happen. And, well, what happened? He continued to do it. And he and Bruce became drinking buddies, right? Yeah, and they fell in love with RG3 and Donovan McNabb a few months later.

Right, exactly. God, nuts. I think we may have talked about this before on the podcast, but no one will remember. And I don't remember what you said. So I'm going to ask it again. In the early days of Dan Snyder, you knew him. I mean, I know you didn't know him well,

but you knew him a little bit. And didn't you have him on the show a couple of times or not? Yeah, yeah, we did. actually he became, well, Bennett Zier, who was the general manager, the station, once he spot somebody famous, he usually, you know, sniffs up to him. And he made a couple of interviews actually happen that we did, we did have him in the studio once. And I did an interview with him at the Redskins store in Tyson once with Larry Weissman. Zave was on vacation at the time, and Zave, to this day, claimed they timed it so he wouldn't be there. But,

We asked regular, you know, tough questions, including the famous story about Pepper Rogers being the choice to replace Norv Turner after he fired Turner at 7 and 6, and he denied that. There are a couple of other things that had been reported at the time, which he denied, flat out denied. And I think that they were true. But, you know, that again was still the relative honeymoon phase of everything. so we weren't, you know, totally ripping him at every turn as we did in the later years. What do you remember, though, about him? Because, look, he became a recluse in terms of media availability. And his, you know, there was no doubt that he, this was not a comfortable thing.

It got to a point where it was not a comfortable thing for him to do media anymore. Those things became few and far between even, you know, go back 10, 12 years ago. I mean, he did doc there a couple of times. he did Cooley, I think once or twice when Cooley came to work for the station. I think he did something with Chick Hernandez once. But last six, seven years, it's been reclusive. But he wasn't that way at the very beginning, was he? No, no.

As I said, he did, you can probably find it, the interview that he did with Armand Citean. And Citean, one of the questions was, a lot of people consider you a prick. And I don't know what the answer was, but, you know, he was actually facing. tough questions. And I don't think he had any understanding about what the job was all about or what was entailed in being an owner and participating with the media. As I've told you a number of times, I believe I did the first radio interview with him, maybe one of the first broadcast interviews, where we had the reporter Rich Cook standing outside the room in Miami in in 1999, when he was approved.

And as soon as he stepped out, he put a cell phone in his hand. And I did about a five or six minute interview with him. And one of the questions was about the name. And you remember at the time, you know, Jack Kent Cook or John Kent Cook was seen as, oh, God, old stuff, get him out of here. You know, he owned the team for two years. He didn't fire Norve. You know, nothing's getting better here.

Here's a young guy who's going to be aggressive. and it was assumed the Jewish liberal. And when there was, you know, at that time, the name was up again in the Supreme Court for trademark protection and things like that. And I asked him, will you change the name of the team? And he said, no. And then I brought up the possibility that they would lose the trademark protection because the name was racist.

And I don't think he had any idea what I was talking about, but he said he wouldn't change the name. And I don't really remember any of the other questions, whether they were really that pertinent, but that was that. And then, you know, you also remember this. He was very giddy about winning, so we're going to win right away. And he also, I believe, said something about Norv Turner not necessarily making it through the season before the season began. I don't think he had any idea about what it meant to fire a coach during his season. And he did, you know, he did keep his promise to Norv that he would bring him back for the following year if he made the playoffs, which he did, and they won a playoff game. So he came back for what would be his last year,

but he got fired then. I don't know if this is another thing that kind of floats around at the ether on all this. Rick Snyder did an interview with Norv several years after he got fired. And Norv said that after that year where he made the playoffs, after his first year with Snyder, that he was going to resign. And the only reason he didn't resign was that his son, Scott Turner was going into his senior year of high school and was the starting quarterback and didn't want to move him. And so he stayed for another year. So just imagine if there was no Scott situation then, they make the playoffs. They win the division, right?

When the division, 10 and six, won a playoff game. And then Norv Turner, after finally making the playoffs in what would be is what, six, seventh year or something like that? Yeah, resigned. Yeah. Wouldn't that have been a redoubt? right there. Wouldn't that have said something? Yeah. I don't think I've ever heard that story. There are a couple of stories

this week that I've been told that I haven't heard two of which I'm going to mention to you here in a moment. But look, Mike remember considered resigning and leaving after the Seattle playoff, or before the Seattle playoff game.

And then after it, because of what was going on with RG3. And the, you know, the feeling that Snyder had basically sabotaged the relationship with RG3 and the coaching staff. So, no, that would have been amazing

because Norve had rough years. And then in 99, they make the trade for Brad Johnson. As you know, Charlie's told all of us that Dan tried to undo that trade the moment he took control of the team in this early summer of 1990, but couldn't, the league wouldn't let him do it. Brad Johnson has a big year.

They go 10 and 6. They win a playoff game, which, by the way, I hate giving Snyder credit. The two playoff wins he had during his ownership tenure, one of them would have never happened had he taken control of the team a little bit earlier. Because he didn't want Brad Johnson. He wanted Jeff George. And so that would have been amazing had Norv quit at the end of that year. Imagine the red flag that would have been. Norv finally gets to the playoffs.

wins the game, has a team coming back that's going to be pretty good on paper, and he resigns, and he says, yeah, because he would have had to give reasons. He would have had to give reasons why he resigned. Again, that was year one of Dan Snyder. Yeah. Yeah, so my moment when I knew, okay, this is never going to work was what, year seven, eight, something like that? It's 2008, year nine, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So think about that. Well, and, you know, the stories, and look, you were in media, I wasn't, but the stories out there about, you know, him completely lambasting Norve in the cowboy locker room, you know, and embarrassing him in front of the entire team after an early season loss,

the vanilla ice cream, like Nolan's stuff. No, no, no, no, that was not the first game was the, Dan's first game as an owner. Actually, this is interesting. because the game was on recently on NFL network. And that was the Troy Aitman Rocket Ishmael up 3514, Cowboys come back to win 4135 in overtime. That was Dan Snyder's very first game as an owner. That wasn't the game he ripped Norve.

The game he ripped Norve was weak. I think they were four and two at the time. It was a month and a half later at Dallas when they lost. and he embarrassed Norve in the locker room. Man, you know, Snyder's first game, his owner, was quite the heartbreaker. You know, it's one of the all-time memorable skins Cowboys games. But that 99, that 99 season was a good season. That would have been, I mean, it would have been interesting,

but Norv had had it with him, clearly. Norve knew, more than anybody, you know, the two people that knew that this guy was no good was Charlie and Norv. They were the ones that knew before anybody else. Yeah, and also, you know, the insider sort of access that I had here, in 2000, I did a television show with Irving Friar and Mark Carrier. And late in that season, that was after Norr was fired, I guess, they, you know, you heard a lot of gossip through them, including that Snyder had thrown a Christmas party. And at that time, Xboxes were new, you know, they were just. coming out. And he came to this Christmas party with 10 of them and gave them to the 10 players

that he liked. So, you know, anybody who has ever put on a jock at any level knows that the 53rd man is the important on the team as the starting quarterback. But, you know, he didn't get that. I also heard that there were the coaches didn't show up for the party. And he called the he called the office to find out where they were. Ray Rhodes picked up the phone and said, we're working, damn it, and hung it up. Well, look, I mean, one of the things that became very clear even early on is he was a major star effort.

He was a jock esser. And the stars were going to get treated like stars. And if you weren't a star, I mean, he didn't have any time for you, which meant everybody else in the organization other than the six or seven. best players. It's funny, I was talking about this on radio today. You know, over the years, as we've gotten to know a lot of the players, you know, glory years players, but also players that played during the Snyder era, you know, I've gotten in arguments. Like, I remember getting in arguments with even Cooley early on. I've gotten into it

with Clinton, London before, Santana. And I've always said to them, hey, guys, your experience with Dan is your experience. But understand this. You were, stars on the football team. You were the small group that he actually treated well. Your feelings about him or your feelings because of the way he treated you, but the majority got treated like peons. And God forbid you were a season ticket holder or a business partner or God forbid a media partner. Forget it because it just was. wasn't, you know, the team treated everybody like shit and it came from him. You know, that 2000 season, I mentioned this recently, that's the last time Washington had any legitimate Super Bowl

preseason expectations. I looked this up the other day. The favorites before that 2000 season were the St. Louis Rams, they were plus 300, and Washington was the second pick to win the Super Bowl at plus 350. Washington had the highest over-under win total going into that season. And that season at 11 and a half. That's the last time there were any real kind of high-level expectations going into a season during the Dan Snyder era. And Norv almost didn't coach the team. Yes. I mean, it's funny, too. I was doing a show with Mel Kuyper at the time at the Baltimore ESPN zone. And one day they brought in. Brian Billy, the new coach of the Baltimore Ravens.

And we were talking off the air about the Redskins. And he said, and he, you know, the big excitement about Dion and Bruce Smith and all that. He said, mark my words, that's going to be a cluster F. And, you know, the people who knew knew. And that's, you know, pretty much what happened. Now, you know, you can also say, well, gee, if they would have had a kicker, maybe things would have been different. You remember, they did have a kicker, and his name is escaping me now, but he had been the

kicker the year before and had done a good job. Eddie Murray was the one that came up short after short. I think it was, was it Bentley? No, no, no, no. No, no, no. Yeah, yeah, the kicker 99 that missed the kick in Tampa after is. Yeah, but it wasn't Bentley. I know it wasn't Bentley. Yeah, I'm blanking on the name. I'll come up with So anyway, he was back for 2000. Brett Conway. And he pulled the muscle, like, in the second or third game and was going to be back. But Vinny just caught him.

They just cut them loose. Vinny liked to cut kickers. And they just cut them. And that got the parade of kickers that they brought in. And there was somebody that signed with Tennessee, I believe, that year, who had a good year. and he was just signed by Tennessee because he was a veteran kicker. He's been in the league.

And the Redskins wanted him to try out. So, you know, all the kickers that they had, they had gotten that right. If you look at the way that season unfolded, you know, they might have been, instead of what, when Nor was fired, seven and six, they might have been like, what, eight and four, whatever, you know.

Yeah, no. The Eddie Murray at the end of the year against the Eagles and the Giants. The Giants game in particular, that's the game where the story that was told by, God, I can't remember who. The giant game at home at the end of that year, they were, you know, they were like, they were in the hunt, certainly for the division. Seven and five.

Seven and five. Seven and five. Seven and five. That was a fossil Giants team. It would have been anyway. And, you know, they sent Eddie Murray out to. kick a 47-yard field goal to win the game at the end. And Murray, on the sideline, told Norv, I can't kick it that far in this direction.

I can't get at that. And Norv said, get out there and kick it anyway. Yeah, I was told it was the holder, who was the punter, who said that to him. Norve, he can't kick it that far. He said, kick it anyway. Barnhart was the punter. But also, you remember in that game, Norve had, this is another thing that made Snyder angry,

Norve had started Brad Johnson. And Brad Johnson was ineffective, and he was forced to go to Jeff George. And George did get the one touchdown they had that day. So that was another thing that exacerbated things. Well, the truth is, Jeff George had a couple of decent games that year. Jeff George went to St. Louis, the defending Super Bowl champions, and beat the Rams on Monday night football and had a really good game. I'm trying to pull it up right now because I want to see exactly what he did in that game.

Jeff George was 24 of 34, 269 yards, three touchdowns and a pick and a 33 to 20 win in St. Louis over the Rams. The Rams were 8 and 2 going into that game. The Redskins were 7 and 3. Trent Green was the starter. So I guess Kurt Warner was hurt clearly because they were. But anyway, yeah, I mean, it's crazy that you're right. If they had had a kicker, they probably would have gone nine and seven and perhaps made, you know, the postseason. But they didn't.

And Norv got fired and Marty got hired. And still to this day, and I've said it for 20-something years, it's the single biggest football mistake that that Dan made. By the way, we would have had a glorious decade of Marty Schottenheimer and plenty, plenty of ratings bonus money because they would have been a really good team that whole decade. But it was doomed from the start because Marty's one thing was, I have to have complete control. And Snyder said yes at the moment, but as the season, season wore on, he didn't like that. He didn't understand what it meant to give somebody else control of his operation. And once he started to see it play out, he didn't like it, and it was

never going to work. No, it was never going to work. And, you know, you've told the story about, you know, Marty, basically, I mean, we know he fired Vinny, but he took away Fred Drasner's parking spot. That pissed Drasner off. Drasner hated him. They were all, they were all trying to get Dan to fire him during the season? Oh, yeah? No, they, they, and, and some of the fans wanted that too, and there's a, there's a sound clip that used to float around. I don't know whatever happened to it, but Snyder did some kind of a, you know, some kind of a charity thing or some kind of a luncheon, and he was, and, and fans were asking him to fire Marty, believe it or not, they were, you know, oh, and five.

And, and he said, y'all didn't want me to medal, did you? I've heard that sound by the number of times, and that's what that was about. And having not the advantage of what would happen over the upcoming 20 years, it made sense to a lot of people at the time. Well, get rid of them, Dan. It's not working out. You know, I think it was Tommy and I that had Marty on the show many years ago. Carl Peterson used to come on all the time, and Carl was really close with Marty as well. And, you know, they just always talked about how Marty was, he was a man of conviction. And he could have come back and coached the team if he had given up the personnel on the GM hat with John Schneider.

And there was no way he was going to do it. And by the way, he was smart not to do it. He got paid. And he did what Mike really didn't have the stones to do when. when, you know, all in for week one was going on before 2013. Because Mike should have said, Mike should have said, sorry, he's not ready. I'm not starting him. I'm starting Kirk.

Now, Kirk, you know, had a hurt ankle in that preseason. Well, but here's the thing that with Marty, Marty needed his career to be resuscitated. And the way they finished that season, it did. Yeah. So that got him the San Diego job. I don't think he would have gotten that without that season. So it worked out for him, and it kind of worked out for Snyder

because what he made in San Diego offset what he owed him for the last, I think, three years of the contract. And then Marty ended up, you know, rubbing A.J. Smith the wrong way. And despite all the winning, that was that was that. All right. Let's take a quick break, and we will continue with Andy, right after these words from a few of our sponsors. This segment of the show brought to you by MyBooky. go to mybooky.com or my bookie.orgie.orgie. Use my promo code, Kevin, D.C. And you can secure a first deposit bonus of up to $1,000. You have to use my promo code, Kevin, DC. MyBooky.com,

mybooky.com, my bookie.com. They've got all of the NFL prop bets that you'd want at this point, all of the week one and week two lines. You can bet NFL week two right now, if you want. The season prop bets on the over-under wind totals, Washington at six and a half. Is there a win total for the upcoming season? MyBooky.com, mybooky.ag, promo code Kevin D.C. So I did this thing yesterday. Oh, I wanted to tell you what Len Shapiro told me. I don't know if you listened to Len on the show.

I heard you talking about it, but go ahead. So there were two things, he said. First of all, do you know why George Allen got fired at the end of the 1977 season? Yeah, I heard you tell that story. Okay, so you already heard me tell. Did you know it before? I did not, but I knew this, that there was real friction. And here's one of the interesting nuggets that I don't know if Len had or you had. But when George Allen went to negotiate his contract with Carol Rosenblum to come back to Los Angeles,

list in 1978. His agent was Ed Hookstratten. Ed Hookstradden was the agent for Carol Rosenpillar. So he was representing both sides. And as we know, George lasted only half the preseason. He came back. There was a mutiny and they had to fire him before they ever played a game. Yeah. So I didn't, I just remembered that that 77 season, look, George Allen was the head coach in Washington for seven seasons. went to the playoffs five times. And the two seasons that he didn't go to the playoffs, the team went eight and six and nine and five. And the 75 season, when they didn't go to the postseason,

the Mel Gray catch cost him, you know, another playoff berth, which is one of the worst calls in the history of the NFL, although there were lots of them back then because we didn't have replay. And then 77, they were nine and five, and they missed the playoffs on the last Sunday of the season when the Giants lost to the Bears, Jack Parties Bears. But the other story he told, and what's interesting is Matt Paris had something in the Washington Times today. He tracked down John King Cook and had some quotes from Cook on the, you know, on the Eve here of Snyder selling the team.

He said, Lended, Jack Kent Cook and his last days on earth, last days, months was considering seriously changing the team name. I had never heard that before. I'd never heard that either. That kind of surprises me. But yeah, that maybe it's a deathbed epiphany, something like that. I don't know. But to see John Kent Cook say he would have stood his ground and not change the name. I thought that was interesting. And look, Snyder could have kept the name. As you pointed out, the big mistake was that he tried to short his minority investors out of their dividend. And they turned on him. And he was left with no choice because he was going to lose major sponsorships if he didn't change the name. Everybody thinks he got woke because of George Floyd, et cetera. Now, that didn't happen. It was because of money. It was Fred Smith. It was Fred Smith. But Fred Smith probably wouldn't have been, that may not have been his move without the summer of 2020 in the environment that we're in. It was a lot easier in that environment for Fred Smith to

make that move on Dan. But he made the move on Dan because Dan was shorting his minority investors money. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, again, it's just like in the Don Van Natta story. If he doesn't leak the Gruden email, he probably survives. Just lay low. Shut up. Go off on your yacht somewhere. But not. Couldn't leave well enough alone. Yeah. So yesterday, Tommy and I had this. So yesterday, for those of you that asked, why on the podcast, didn't you have your top 10? A couple of you reached out that you had on radio. I did a top 10 list, Andy, of the biggest DC sports stories that are not game related. Tommy and I actually sort of got into this spontaneously on the podcast, but I recorded the podcast

with Tommy yesterday before the radio show because he's going down to this Hemingway look-alike contest. By the way, for those of you that listened yesterday, I told Tommy that it was, is basically irresponsible for him to be going down on a boondoggle on one of the more significant days that he should be writing. And he said, well, I've earned the right to do this. And I said, well, if I were your editor and boss, I'd say, sorry, this isn't a funeral or a wedding. You're not going down to the Hemingway look-alike contest.

You're writing. So he texted me. Oh, listen to you, Ben Bradley. Oh, my God. So he texted me earlier today. he said, guess what? I wrote a column. He said, you shamed me. I wrote a column that's going to appear in Friday's paper. So anyway, I came up with my top 10 biggest DC sports stories that weren't game-related. And I don't know, did you hear my top 10 or not?

I heard some of it. I didn't hear the top. I think you rated this number three. All right. So let me ask you, what's your number one? What's the biggest D.C. sports story of all time that isn't a game result or, you know, that isn't game related? Well, I mean, you kind of have to define this by, as history played out, was it the big sports story? No, in the moment, in the moment. Okay. Yeah. In the moment that I'm living in, because this story has kind of trickled out, right? I mean, it wasn't like, well, the biggest moment was when I happened to be out of town the day that they announced they had a deal in principle to sell the team.

But coming out of nowhere was Steve Bucantz on a, I think it was a Friday morning reporting that Joe Gibbs was retiring. And, you know, we were just launching sports radio at that time. So that was a great fire drill for us. We went the whole day with it. It was, you know, it was really a great thing. but just the impact of that in the moment was the biggest thing I could remember. Now, you have the enormous tragedy of Len Byers, but we didn't know for a couple of weeks that it was cocaine, right? So that kind of, you know, stretched it out a little bit.

But the atomic bomb nature of Gibbs retiring to me just seemed like it was the biggest story. Wow. So I did my top 10. and Joe Gibbs retiring in March of 93 was not in my top 10. In fact, it wasn't even mentioned on the show, on the radio show. But hold on here for a second. Somebody tweeted it to me, and I'm like, oh, my God. Of course.

Of course that has to be in the top 10. Now, I don't know if it's number one, but you can make the case it's high up on the list because that was a stunner, and it ended the greatest era of any of our professional sports teams ever. You know, and we didn't know it was going to end. We thought it would continue, especially when Richie won the season opener against

Cowboys on Monday Night Football the following year. Well, Richie's Line. Do you remember Richie's Line the day he was hired? I don't. Business as usual. Yeah, business as usual. Yeah. Well, it wasn't. But I don't even think that was Richie's fault necessarily.

That team was old, free agency, salary caps started. Gibbs knew what was. was coming. But my, so I had, Tommy convinced me that baseball's return in 2005 is the biggest non-game-related sports story ever. Wow. I mean, it's got to be up there and you're talking about, you know, 33 years of buildup, is it going to happen and all the false starts that we had, whether it's going to be,

you know, the Padres or the or the Giants or the Astros. I mean, there were a lot of, a lot of times we thought it was going to happen. So, yeah, I mean, that was an enormous thing. I mean, again, these are huge stories. You could probably make a case for any of them. Well, where would you put Snyder selling? Well, I mean, in terms of the overall meaning to the town, to the sports scene, if it's not number one, it's probably number two or number three.

I mean, it's got to be in there somewhere, right? But again, you've got to put it. I had Bobby Mitchell integrating the team in 1962 as number two. I don't know what it was like in the moment, but I, you know, Snyder selling the team was three for me. And here's a question for you after you mentioned Joe Gibbs's retirement in March of 93. What was a bigger story, Gibbs's retirement in 93 or his return in 2004? The retirement was bigger. It was bigger. the return was a surprise for sure.

And actually, I heard you talking about this as if it was Dan Snyder's idea to bring them back and he went out and did it. What I've been told is that Gibbs wanted money and he knew he could get it the fastest by this means. And he reached out through his friend Dwight Schar that he was interested in coming back. Now, Snyder made it happen, but Gibbs had a lot of parameters, including Snyder buying a race car for it to happen. So, you know, while he gets credit for bringing him back, it wasn't like, you know, he's sitting back with his brain trust, Vinny, and saying, yeah, let's go get your gifts.

Right, but he gets credit for that, though. He still had to, he still had to make it happen. Yeah, he did. He did. No question. No question. Yeah. I had, so I had the return of Gibbs for, I had Lombardi being hired as five. That, that would, that would, yeah, I don't remember, you know, you would remember that. You would remember that. You would remember that. more than I. Wasn't that a big deal? That was a big deal. And, you know, media was different than I seem to remember Sonny Jurgensen doing a basketball game on TV when he got the news that it was happening. And he almost couldn't finish the game.

He was so stunned by that. And then two years later, George Allen coming back. Right. Both of those pulled off by Edward Bennett Williams, who, by the way, he's been identified as the owner of the team over the years. He never really was. Jack Kent Cook.

He was the managing. Right. He was the managing. Yeah. Because the NFL actually had a rule in those days, which is interesting now with Harris coming in. The NFL had a rule that you couldn't own other teams and own an NFL franchise. And Cook, of course, owned the Lakers and the King.

So he wasn't allowed to be the majority owner, even though he was. He wasn't allowed to be the operating partner of the team. I had Jordan to DC-6, the combination of Sean Taylor and Len Byes, deaths, seven. The Redskins name change, eight, Abe Poland moving into the MCI Center and completely changing our city in so many ways. Nine. And then I had, before I remember Joe Gibbs retiring in March of 93, I think Art Monk finally making it into the Hall of Fame out of all of the Hall of Fames, you know, Daryl and Russ that followed, that was a big deal for this town. We, had waited for that. We had thought it was so long overdue. I think arts trek into the Hall of Fame

was a bigger deal than Russ's or Daryl's. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was controversial for a long time, and you had ridiculous statements like from Adam Schaefter. Well, he never had a signature catch in his career. You know, Peter King was saying, oh, when I covered the Giants, you know, they never feared Art Monk. And finally, somebody convinced Peter King to have a conversation with Gibbs, and it happened. But I would pick a bone with you on an Abe building the arena in D.C. It was a bigger deal when the Capitol Center was built in 1973, because we were a one professional sports town. We had the Redskins. That was it. And so Abe was not only building the arena, but he was bringing the bullets from Baltimore, and we were getting an expansion hockey team

with the caps. And there was no, I mean, people think about arenas now, like, oh, yeah, just build a new one, just build a new one. Well, the biggest arena we had was the Washington Coliseum, which is now an REI center and sat at the time, maybe 5,000 people. Yeah. Yeah, a U-Line or whatever, had a variety of names. But, yeah, to have an actual, wow, NBA caliber arena with an in, and a tell screen. Oh, yeah, that was a big deal. You can watch replays in the arena. That was huge. So I would say that was a bigger deal than the MCI Center. It wasn't a bigger deal for the city, though, ultimately. Abe gentrifying, you know, we ended up having, we're now a city of neighborhoods.

We weren't that prior to Chinatown being revitalized. You go from one professional team to three. No, I understand. But it was more, you said the Capitol Center being built, it was really the bullets moving to Baltimore. and getting an NHL team making this town go from one sports pro team to three overnight, basically. The bullets came in 73, the caps in 74. But yeah, yeah. And the arena, like you would have inaugurations there, big concerts.

None of that stuff was happening here before the Capitol Center. Fights, Ali fought there, you know, Rolling Stones, you name it. No, no, no. I mean, I probably, it's not an exaggeration probably to say that I went to the Capitol Center 300 times. Maybe 500. I mean, there were years where I probably went to 20 bullets games, 10 to 15 anyway, and they were in the playoffs every year. You know, you saw every big concert was at the Capitol Center. Right, right.

And, yeah, I mean, Ali fought there. Sugar Ray Leonard fought there. Every tell screen, you know, close circuit, big fight was at the Capitol Center, I think goes out there for four or five of those. So you see my point here. Yeah, I know. It was great to have the MCI Center, but for us to have an actual pro arena like that was huge with two teams coming in. I'm trying to think in 1973, how many top 10 markets,

in the country had just one professional sports team. Washington had to be the only one. Buffalo, I think at the time... Buffalo wasn't a top 10 market, though. What I'm saying, though, it's a smaller market, and at that time, they had the Buffalo Braves of the NBA. The Sabres and the Bills. Yeah.

Yeah. Right. All right. Andy and I continued for another 20 minutes or so talking about the future and what we would both suggest. to Josh Harris if we had the opportunity to suggest anything. I'm going to save that portion of my conversation with Andy until tomorrow. So that is it for today.

I'll be back tomorrow. Listen to this. This was the day that Joe Gibbs was introduced by Dan Snyder as the new head coach of the Washington Redskins, the return of Gibbs back in 2004. I know my dad's smiling down on this today. I know you're there. The head coach and team president of Washington Redskins, Joe Gibbs.

Don't anybody jump the gun here, okay? Remember, I'm a physical education major. That's ballroom dancing and handball. That's all. That's about it. That's all you got here. You don't have anything anymore, Dad.