The Kevin Sheehan Show - Does Snyder "Need" To Sell?

Episode Date: March 24, 2023

Kevin today on the two "Sweet 16" thrillers last night to start. Kevin discussed the topic of Dan Snyder's financial situation and whether or not Snyder really "needs" to sell the team. Doc Walker was a guest on the show and talked about his early broadcasting days working for George Michael while also weighing in on Washington's QB situation. Jeff Ermann/InsideMDSports jumped on to talk about Jim Larranaga, Terps' hoops, and more. Kevin had two more "Smell Test" plays for tonight's games as well.   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Cheon Show. Here's Kevin. Chances are you'll get more than one opportunity. I mean, he's on the ass in March Mendez. That is a long shot.

He took it from Reno, and he cashed in. Kevin Harlan, Stan Van Gundy, and Dan Bonner on the call of UCLA Gonzaga last. night. Julian Strother pulled up from 28 feet. They were only down one. He launched it with nine seconds to go. It went through his 7.2 seconds to go. UCLA had chances they couldn't get it done. Gonzaga moves on to the Elite 8 with a 79 to 76 win in the nightcap last night. Man, I was disappointed. I really wanted UCLA to win the game. Hakez was tremendous. Gonzaga's defense was as bad as any defensive team I've seen in this. tournament in the first half. I thought UCLA could have been up 20. They were up 46 to 33 at

halftime. Drew Timmy, 36 points, 13 rebounds in that game. Missed a couple of key free throws late. By the way, the Harlan Bonner Van Gundy trio, I've enjoyed them calling games. I've never been the biggest Harlan fan because basically he makes like, you know, a bucket in the first half to make the score 10 to 8 sound like a national championship three point buzzer beater. You know, every call feels like it's, you know, the biggest, you know, moment of the game and of the season. But he's excellent. I get it.

He's excellent at what he does. And there's a video circulating of the three of them calling the end of that Virginia Furman game, the Kihei Clark turnover that turned into the three-pointer by the kid from Furman that won it. And there's a video of Harlan, Van Gundy, and Bonner calling that sequence. And it's made the rounds on social media. You can find it. It's actually really worth watching because Kevin Harlan holds back Van Gundy and Bonner from stepping on his call.

Van Gundy's in total shock at what he's watching in that moment. But they've been pretty good. Look, I'm not a big Nance Hill raftery as the number one crew. I like Nance. Don't get me wrong. But that trio feels the game, that's for sure. And they had a good one last night in Gonzaga, UCLA. Gonzaga will face Yukon.

They destroyed Arkansas. The game of the night, though, was the first game at the garden between K State and Michigan State. Back and forth the entire night. And Marquise Noel put in without question what turned out to be the performance of the tournament, setting the NCAA mark for assists in a game. 19 in the game. He also had 20 points. Remember coming off that big win over Kentucky

where he went for 27 and 9. The 5-foot-8 guard point guard from Harlem back in the garden last night in his hometown, and they pulled off a huge win. The game was incredible because he got injured. He was out for a while. Michigan State made a run. They had a lead.

K. State came back. They had a lead. the game went to overtime. Michigan State had an early lead in overtime. And then on that final sequence with K-State up three, Michigan State looking for a three-pointer to force a second overtime. K-State didn't foul for starters. And man, I thought Malik Hall and Houser both turned down open looks.

Now, Hauser had somebody closing out quickly, but I think one quick ball fake, the guy would have gone by him and he would have had an open three. and instead they threw it to Tyson Walker and Noel had his fifth steal of the night 20 points 19 assists and 5 steals in the game. What a performance by him. Kansas State off to the Elite 8

where they will face Florida Atlantic tomorrow night at Madison Square Garden. FAU, a 7-point winner over Tennessee. They took Tennessee's best blows. Tennessee tried to bully them off the floor as well. Florida Atlantic did a really nice job. They had an 18 to 2 run at one point. They were my one smell test winner last night.

I had Michigan State and Arkansas, neither one of them, got it done. So I'm 13 and 10 overall. Two more selections for tonight's Sweet 16. And then I will tweet out the Elite 8 picks if I have them over the weekend. Follow me on Twitter at Kevin Sheehan, D.C. By the way, I was thinking about Kansas State. If you're a college basketball fan, a longtime college basketball fan, I am, you know that Kansas

States had a really good program. You know, they've been a good college basketball program. They've had great coaches, you know, in my lifetime, guys like Jack Hartman, when they had Rolando Blackman back in the 80s, late 70s, Lon Kruger,

Dana Altman, Frank Martin, Bruce Weber, and now Jerome Tang in his first year, his first year, he gets him to an elite eight. But Kansas State's one of those programs that's just lived in the shadows of much bigger programs in the league that they've been in. First, the Big Eight and the Big 12th for a long period of time now. Obviously, they've lived in the

shadows of Kansas in their own state. But they've been a good program. And tomorrow night will be their eighth regional final since 1972. Now, back in the 60s and the 50s and the 40s, they got to finals. They've never won a national championship. But in their last seven elite eight games, they are 0.7. Oh, and 7. If you're a Kansas State fan, like a diehard Kansas State football and basketball fan, you have lived in that world of being relevant, of being pretty damn good in football as well, but never really getting over the hump.

They've got a chance to do it tomorrow night. but they are owed for their last seven in elite eights. I would consider Kansas State to be, you know, a top 25-ish basketball program. Look, Maryland was in that category for a long period of time. You know, before Gary finally got him to a final four and won a national championship, they were considered to be like the best program that hasn't been to a final four. You know, like when you talk about tennis and golfers, the best player not to win a major.

Maryland was in that category for years, the best college basketball program that hasn't made a final four. Because they had so many teams that were so capable of winning the whole thing, let alone getting to the final four. K-State's been very similar to that. And they haven't busted through. Maybe this is their year to bust through. I said when they played Kentucky Sunday and talked about it on the podcast this week, I thought I was watching a team capable of winning the national championship. Of course, I gave Michigan State last night out as a favorite, and they went off as a dog.

There was major sharp money on Kansas State at the very end. If I had known that was coming, I would not have given out Michigan State yesterday. But that happens, and sometimes it works in my favor. A couple of things real quickly before we get to our two guests on the show today. First of all, Doc Walker will be on the show. He's coming up in minutes. And then Jeff Erman, who covers Maryland Sports for Inside Maryland Sports, he will join us. We'll talk Terps.

Hakeem Hart, entering the draft, but really holding back on that, entering the transfer portal simultaneously, and writing kind of a farewell note on Instagram. So it looks like they're going to lose Hakeem Hart. Maryland's got a top 15-ish recruiting class coming in, and they will be working the port. really hard as well. Look, college basketball is completely different now with the portal and with NIL. I mean, the number of players that will be in the portal, it's like free agency, you know, in the NFL. But we will talk to Jeff Irman, we'll talk some college basketball, some tournament and more detail. We'll talk some Jim Laranaga with him. Miami plays Houston tonight. And I started looking up

some stuff about Jim Laranaga. And I had a thought about him, and I will have that discussion with Jeff Irman in the final segment of the show. Before we get to Doc, though, a couple of things that I want to get to real quickly. So yesterday, when discussing the Charles Gasparino from Fox Business News tweets about, you know, all of the sudden they're interested in Bezos, they'll accept a bid from Bezos. Snyder doesn't have any animus towards Bezos, et cetera, et cetera. I said to me this kind of reeked of, he's trying to drive Harris to $6 billion. He's not at $6 billion yet, maybe. Or he realizes Harris won't get to $6 billion.

He wants $6 billion, and he knows now that Bezos is the only one that can get there. Roe Chaser, 1967 on Twitter, and Rochaser, 1967 on Twitter, and I go back several years. We've been tweeting back and forth and having debates about various things. I think he's got a really sharp opinion. He tweeted me, and he said, Snyder is also setting up a walkaway strategy if he doesn't get his number. Now, I did not have that takeaway from the Gasparino tweet about Bezos. In fact, I won't have that takeaway on anything.

I don't think he's walking away. Look, anything can happen. Okay, anything could happen. He's impulsive. He's petty. If you back him into a corner, he is not a flight guy. He is a fight guy. Give him credit for that, if we're going to give him credit for anything. And so Roe Chaser tweeted that to me, and Zach jumped into the conversation and said,

Not a chance, man, he's gone. He needs, in capital letters, the money. Also, he can't get a stadium and doesn't have the dollars to fund it on his own, and that's the biggest reason he's selling. NFL can push everything else to the side, but him not being able to build in D.C. was the final strong. I don't know if it was just building in D.C. It's building anywhere with any help. He's not getting any help from any of the three jurisdictions.

And so Road Chaser responded, he doesn't need the money. Stop believing this silly narrative. Link me to something where he's losing or he's unable to service his debts. Why would they push things to the side when he's actively trying to sell? So that exchange actually got me to thinking

that I don't think we've done a good job when we've talked about financially, they have to sell the team. Are there in a position financially where they really need to sell the team? I don't think we've done a good job of explaining that that's not about Dan Snyder's personal wealth. He doesn't personally need the money. He's not going broke. The discussion or the essence of the discussion is whether or not he can afford to own this team. Not only to afford this team, his team, but to grow this team. You know, this is a team

that's lost two-thirds of its customer base, its fan base. It's seen a 25% plus decline in profit in recent years. It required a debt waiver limit to be able to buy out the minority shareholders a few years ago, Dwight Schar, Fred. Smith, Bob Rothman, and it needs to pay for its own new stadium because nobody's helping him. So I want to make that clear to those that, you know, have tweeted me recently or even just listen to us and think, oh my God, Snyder's going broke. No, no, no, no, no. That's not what we're talking about. We've never been talking about that. Snyder doesn't personally need any money. By the way, if he did, he's got enough in assets that he could sell it off and be super wealthy.

In real estate, in boats, and I'm sure lots of other things. He doesn't personally need the money. He's not going broke. The issue is, can he afford to own this team the way you need to own an NFL team to remain competitive? And the answer to that is probably not. He has debt. He had to, again, get that debt limit waived by the league so he could just buy out his shareholders, his minority shareholders, which, by the way, he's going to make a ton of money on the sale of their shares that he bought back.

And this team just, you know, financially, the team, it's not losing money. The team's never been losing money. Let me make that clear, too. The team's not losing money. As long as an NFL team doesn't lose money. They're just making a lot less money than they used to. to make and it's declining quickly. The other thing, too, let's be real here.

He's not walking away at this point. I mean, it would take the biggest set of you know what's of all time for him to walk away after he is literally excited an entire city with the prospect that he is selling. If he thinks there aren't enough people at his stadium, there haven't been enough people at his stadium recently. Try on for size. Nope, I'm keeping the team next year's crowd size. There are some of you that would continue to go. I know that. But even the some of you that have been at times incredibly loyal but incredibly delusional, I think even some of you would then bail on the team. He's going to sell this team. I really do feel confident in that. I still think it's going to be Harris.

And I, you know, whether he not, whether or not he gets to $6 billion or not. By the way, if he didn't sell the team or he sold 40% to somebody, it certainly wouldn't be a massive stunner. At this point, it would be very surprising to me. But this guy has proven over the years to be, you know, a fighter. And then obviously incredibly sensitive, incredibly petty. and impulsive. So who knows, but I'm still here now on March 24th saying he's selling.

I think it's to Josh Harris. I think it's for something maybe a little bit less than $6 billion. And I think we're going to have some news on it sooner rather than later, he says. Washington signed an offensive line. Trent Scott, who was actually in Pittsburgh and Carolina, but not when Ron Rivera. was their depth along the offensive line. So it's Gates, Wiley, and Scott along the offensive line in terms of the additions here in the off season.

There was one other thing that I wanted to get to before we get to Doc. It deals with what the owners will be getting together to, in part, discuss which are potential rules changes. Here's one of them. The NFL's Competition Committee has proposed a new rule that would spot a fair catch on a kickoff at the 25-yard line, even if it's caught in the field of play. Also, the committee's proposing to move the spot of a touchback on a punt from the 20-yard line to the 25-yard line, a way to incentivize punt returners to let the ball bounce into the end zone rather than trying to field it and return it.

All of these, you know, both of these, but all the rules, typically rules changes, are driven towards safety. I hate both of these ideas. Hate them. Now, there's some discussion that, well, if you punt it into the end zone and they mark it at the 25-yard line, this may be a catalyst or an incentive for teams to go for it more on fourth down. I don't think so.

I think they'll just try to punt it inside the 10-yard line and have it downed at the four. But certainly returners will take less chances fielding it, hoping it would go into the end zone and you get it at the 25 and pick up five yards from where you want to. I doubt that this one passes. The other one is the college football rule in recent years. If you call a fair catch on a kickoff return and you're in the field of play, the ball comes out to the 25-yard line. The same thing happens if the ball's kicked into the end zone and it's downed or it's kicked out of the end zone. That's what happens in the NFL now, but if a kickoff is in play, you're forced to field it and return it. Now you can call for a fair catch and bring it out to the 25-yard line. I don't like it.

I don't like it at all. I understand why these rules are being proposed. You know, the kickoff return is still a dangerous play. We saw, by the way, a lot of really big-time kickoff returns last year. Cordarell Patterson had another long, you know, touchdown return. Naheem Hines had two kickoff returns for touchdowns. Remember, in the same game for Buffalo. But I don't like the idea of watching the NFL go to. Here's a kickoff, and somebody's calling for a fair catch, and we get it at the 25. We just won't see many kickoff returns anymore.

We don't see a lot in college football anymore. We just don't, you know, especially if that ball's kicked at like the five-yard line or inside the five-yard line. You know, the odds of getting it out beyond the 25 at that point are pretty slim. So coaches are like, nope, call for a fair catch. Let's take the ball at the 25-yard line. There's one other thing that I wanted to mention, and then I promise we will get to Doc Walker. So the NFL is going to discuss this weekend.

This is really very interesting to me and those that are interested in the NFL schedule. Okay, the NFL is going to consider flexing with flexible scheduling Thursday night games. Thursday night games. This was written, by the way, in a story by my good friend John Orand from Sports Business Journal and Ben Fisher from Sports Business Journal. They write, flex scheduling could be coming to Amazon's Thursday night football. Owners will be asked at next week's league meetings to approve a flex schedule. scheduling plan for late season Thursday games.

Now, keep in mind, we started the flex scheduling with Sunday to Sunday night. This year will be the first year, if you didn't know this, that Sunday games will now be allowed to be flexed to Monday night football. And now the owners are going to consider flexing games to Thursday night football. Here's what Orrand and Fisher write. Specifically, the measure awaiting owners would permit the league to shift Sunday afternoon games to Thursday nights in weeks 14 through 17. with 15 days notice.

So we're talking about the very end of the season for, you know, and the threat of end of season Thursday night standalone games is that you've got a dog of a game. Before you get to week 14, people are still interested in watching all the games, and everybody is still pretty much in the hunt for the most part. But you're talking about the final four weeks of the season, weeks 14, 15, 16, and 17, being able to flex Thursday night.

15 days notice. But it also, by the way, will mean that some teams will have to play short weeks more than others. And it may turn out to be that the better teams end up playing more of those short week Sunday to Thursday games, because logically, if they're going to flex a bad game out and a good game in, it's going to be two good teams, and they're going to have more likely than not already at that point played a Thursday night game. Look, everything's about TV. I mean, we talked about safety with the kickoff rules,

and yet the audience size on Thursday night football, Amazon's package late in the season, if you've got a piece of, you know what game, they're not going to allow that to happen. Not for the billions of dollars. at stake. If a team's got to play multiple Thursday night games, multiple short week games for better ratings, that's fine. Interesting. So here we go with the upcoming season where we're already scheduling or flexing to Monday nights now, but now we may flex to Thursday nights at the end of the season. All right. No new owner news. I've been trying to kind of hold off the getting out of this podcast because it just seems like every single day there's new news on ownership.

But as of now, as the recording of this podcast, as I'm doing this, there is nothing new on the owner front. If there's something big, we'll get to it maybe on a special pod tomorrow. Up next, Doc Walker, right after these words from a few of our sponsors. All right, let's bring on to the show my very good friend, Richard Doc Walker. Doc, of course, has his own podcast, which you can find at patreon.com slash Doc Walker. You can, of course, follow him also on Twitter at Rick Doc Walker. By the way, I want to read this quick Apple review from Olin. Olin writes in, Sheehan, you are always at your best with Doc.

Walker, period. I've been saving that one. That came in from Olin the last time you were on. And I always enjoy all of the work that I get to do with Doc. I consider it to be quite the honor when he clears his calendar and his schedule to make time for me. But now that he has, it is time for X's and O's. Burgundy and Gold. And Kevin, as I say, being your substitute teacher. I mean, look, man, when my number comes up, I'm going to be ready, and I'm going to shoot this long ball, so let's roll. Let's roll. You know what? So actually, the way you just said that, it reminds me is something. Doc and I have known each other, and we've worked together,

or certainly worked in the same place on and off for the last 15, 17 years, actually, for me. Doc's been in sports talk radio since he retired. He's been in media since he retired from the league. was your first media job? Was it for George, Michael? Yeah, 1983. So, oh, in 83, while you were playing, you were doing work for George. Oh, absolutely, yeah. How did that come about? I was talking to Glenn Brenner, who I just adored. I mean, I thought when I found out that Glenn was an athlete, former athlete, you know, in the Phillies organization, I was even more encouraging because, you know, the medium had changed. There weren't a lot of guys in it. It definitely weren't a lot of African-Americans doing it. And so I was speaking with him a lot, and he, the time

James Brown was there, and I'll never forget how candid he was. And he said, you know, I'd love to do some things with you, but, you know, we have J.B. over here. And it was like, we can only have one black guy at times. Is that real? Honestly, that's the way it was. I mean, you can't have like two on a set or whatever.

Like, that could never work. He said, but George, you should talk to George, you're a guy, blah, blah, blah. And that's what got me to George.

It was Glenn. And then I went with George, went over there, we chatted. You know, George is, he's like a coach. He really is.

He's like, I really enjoyed a relationship because he was, it was very serious to him. He was like an athletic environment, highly demanding. That was nothing new to me. And he would give you challenges that you didn't even know was up. Like he sent me the opening day at the Orioles. And I didn't know Eddie Murray didn't talk.

But I asked him, who do you want me to get? He said, I want you to give me Eddie, give me Cal, could be this and that. And I didn't know the difference. So, of course, I go up there with the late Don Stumpel, God. rest of the soul. And I, you know, I noticed, man, there's nobody over there in any locker. And the Orioles had lost two to one. Reagan threw out the first pitch.

I go over that Mr. Murray, and I just, he looked at me. And I could to this day remember that the look on his face was like, either this dude is stupid or he doesn't really know. And thank God, he gave me the benefit of the doubt of my ignorance. And he did the interview was great. and later in life we'd be in a golf tournament and I went to him and I said, Mr. Murray, I really didn't.

He'd go, dude, I knew you didn't know. I knew they set you up. And that we dapsed and hugged, and I thought, I went back to Georgia. Who'd you get? Who'd you get? I said, I got Eddie. You got Eddie?

And then I knew. Then he sent me to Big John. And then I really knew that he was using me like a battering ram. You know, he's putting me out here, but I'm coming back. I'm not dying. And so took off from there. So I was happy to do it because, you know, Larry Brown was an insurance guy. Mosley had a boot shop.

Everybody worked. It was different. Like NIL is new and transfer portal. Well, athletes had jobs when I got in the league. And because season was short, you knew it was almost like it was a part-time job. It wasn't full-time. It wasn't full-time money. And so I think it better prepared you for life.

it was no joke because guys had jobs in off-season. So that was it. Yeah, that's, I mean, I think a lot of football fans know that, you know, way back in your day, it was not a 12-month-of-the-year job. And the compensation, you know, wouldn't have made it worthwhile for it to be 12 months. You needed to do something else, and guys had off-season jobs. When you were at UCLA, I don't know that I've ever asked you this. Were you a communications major?

Yeah, I was. I got involved in that. Dr. Art Friedman had a great, Carol Burnett had put in a lot of money and going into that, and that's how it started. It would be a great story. It wasn't a great story.

It didn't end that way because they didn't offer to allow you to take afternoon curriculum during spring ball, which was a major problem for me. And I thought it was such a, what a hypocrite. You know, we're talking about student-athlete deal,

but it was like wink-wink, you can't take certain things during the season. And I'm like going, so wait a minute. So the scholarship is for two football seasons in one year. You know, that's all I said.

Me and Geney Morgan, you know, it was like, I was definitely, I would you say, non-conforming, but also so inquisitive, things didn't make sense to me.

You know, it was like, wait a minute, you said it was this, but it really wasn't. And really, it was a life lesson. And what it taught me was that everything is not what you think it is in life. And you just, it's like Dick Vermil leaving. You know, you win the Rose Bowl, and then the guy leaves.

He gets a job. And people are upset, and you go, no, you come to college to better yourself so that you can make a living. You know, it's like it should be that way. It's like it's not abnormal. don't blame him he did what he's training everybody to do college is a pass-through but you know i look at it this and i go wow but i had to deal with it in a way that was uncomfortable because you know he felt like betrayal wait a minute what what then you're leaving and then you don't know that but then we get cherry down and you who ends up being the all-time winning this guy there life lessons and

that's why i communicate to you in the way i do because we've, you know, been through this thing. You understand it's not necessarily what you think it is. And that's why we're lucky to have these formats. Because most people don't understand that. They have no idea really what we're talking about right now. They don't get it. And so NIL and transfer portal, all this.

I'm like, bring it on because this whole thing is not what you think it is. It's about these people aren't paying. They got free labor. and they're making a fortune. Well, back to these kids, so why not? Yeah, I mean, that's an argument for another day. You've won that argument.

They are now paying athletes, but there was, you know, there is, if you're an out-of-state student at UCLA, there is about $400,000 in room board and tuition value. But to your point, you didn't go to UCLA thinking that your scholarship was for two football seasons a year. You wanted the academic part. Real quickly. Did Vermil recruit you, or did Pepper Rogers recruit you? No, Ramil. Vermil did. Okay, and so you played for her? I never, I met Pepper. I met Pepper. I met Pepper there, and when Pepper come here, because he was, you know, good friends. Right. with one of the

50,000 people we've had here. Yeah, one of the holders we've had here. But, yeah, all that stuff kind of blends together. And you don't even realize how long ago it was. But it's a long time ago. It wasn't, you know, it's been current. And I know what you're doing. You're leading all this up to Gonzaga's win.

No, I'm not. No, I'm not. I have it on my list. I have it on my list. But I'm just, I'm doing the, questioning here, so let me handle this part of the discussion. When I'm filling in, I'm filling in because somebody killed on you. That's not true at all.

One of the rights that I get in this when I come in and see is to not be bullied like you do, you know, day all you're a producer. Of course I do. Yeah, I'm such a bully. So when you, you thought that at UCLA that, you know, you had a communications, you know, idea. You play professional. Why am I on here right now? Let me ask you a question. You asked me to come over here today. This is not like going, these people don't want to hear this. Yes. You brought me on here today for specific reasons. I'll determine, I'll determine what they want to hear.

I'll determine what they want to hear and I'll ask the questions. Can you just let me, I, I'm curious and I'm interested in you and a lot of people that are listening are interested in you. And every time we talk, sometimes there are things. things that I don't know about you that I am curious about. Let me ask my questions. Why don't you invite me to the club? What if you invite me to the club one day? And then I can sit there and have a, have a beverage, you know, with you and the members. And then we can talk about this. Okay. First of all, the voice you're hearing, of course, is Doc Walker. He's available to me. It's a pleasure to have him. It's an honor to have

him when he's a. Tell him the truth. No, you're not filling in for anybody. So just stop, stop for a second. Okay. I want to, so George Michael gives you this gig and the Eddie Murray thing, because Eddie Murray, for those that don't know, Eddie Murray didn't talk to the media. All right, Art Monk and Eddie Murray were the exact same person,

superstar, all-time players that just hated to talk to the media. So the interview you got that day, So Eddie Murray didn't say, Hey, man, thanks, but I don't talk, realizing that you didn't know. He actually did the interview with you. He did the interview, and he went two for one. No, he went two for, I think it was two for three.

And I asked him about how. What do you mean two for three? Two for three, what? In other words, he had three. I think he was three at three. I think he had three. Oh, okay, his day. Okay, his day.

He was two for three. Okay. His day. two or three. And I'm asking him about picking up the seams. Because I say coming out of training camp, out of spring training, how long does it take before you really pick up the rotation? You know, different things started pitching. Yeah.

And then coming out of spring training. And he explained it. He said the day was, my vision was really good. I was able to see it. I stroked well, but we didn't win. And I said, thank you, Mr. Murray. And I went on to the next guy. It was just one question?

No, I asked him several, but nobody you're listening. things cares about that. They want to hear you. Hold on first. Like me, I tune in every day. Okay. You hear you. Can you just stop for a second?

So for those that don't know also, George Michael was demanding as a boss. Like, he was exceptional, and he was exceptional on the air. But the guys that worked for George Michael in the business, they were under a lot of pressure. George put a lot of pressure on them. And it was a totally different environment than working for Glenn Brenner or working for Buckhance.

My first gig, as you know, for two years out of college, was working for Buck. And the only thing we were concerned about at work was, were we going to sign of the whale or Mad Hatter after the show was sober? Oh, Matt Hatter, I remember that. To drink. And, of course, Buck would pick up every single tab. He's still one of the most generous people. But George was demanding, you know, and those guys, it was tough, and they worked their asses off. And if they didn't get it right, George would let him know.

How was George with you? You get back from the Eddie Murray interview. And then you said, you got Big John, because Big John didn't talk to just anybody back then. No, he sent me over to Georgetown, and I was a nervous wreck. And, you know, I had to, you know, John, you know, he coached in overalls. At the time, I mean, he was, you know, 6-11. He was massive at the time. And I mean, it was, I have never felt so uncomfortable in my life, you know, going in an interview.

And you people say, hey, man, just the interview. No, as you will know, because you're in the business. At the time, there was so many rules and regulations. And I didn't know the end and out. I'm learning, you know, as I go, and coach was in the middle of it. They were running a weed drill. And so I go up, I ask him, he go, okay, son, come on. And he offered you what it was very polite.

I never understood. Everybody was so fearful of them. They were nice, very polite. Nothing's going on. They're running this weed drill. Horse broadening. I'll never forget it. Ball went off his leg in a weed drill.

And coach said, son, cut that off for a moment. so we cut the camera off and for the next I don't know 10 15 seconds it seemed like an eternity he ripped

he told him he called it wall to wall when they had to run you know lines and they had to go back to the inbound suicidal of suicide

and they started running and Patrick Patrick was there all those great players they had and I saw the look on their face I go oh my God

I mean I was such a wreck. He's screaming at him, and then they ran. He said, okay, so let's continue while they were running. And then I don't even know what I forgot what I wanted to ask him. I was a wreck. And, you know, he finished it. And I know he was laughing inside. And then he just let him, they just kept running during the interview. And I saw, he had all those pros. And I thought, my God. But, you know, he got results. And as you will know, as you work with him as well as I did, nicest guy in the world, but he wasn't playing when it came to being demanding. So coaching and detail,

the coaches like Gary, you know, Gary's same kind of guy, same thing. You go to interview Gary Williams. Are you kidding me? You know, we got, we have, we have a lot of personalities in this town at that time at every point position, whether it's Mason, whether it's AU, GW, You know, it's just a lot of great personalities and coaches. So I was really lucky to be, although our town may not seem like that,

but it was a hell of a sports environment as you experienced it as well. And so, no, I was lucky. Very lucky. Before 980 started and you became, you know, a host on 980 forever, you did just Channel 4, right? I'll get to the play-by-play in the ACC stuff in a moment, but you were a reporter for George Michael at Channel 4 from the time you retired until the sports talk radio thing came about, right?

Or am I missing something in between there? I think 89. I started WMAL. That was 89. Yeah. Okay. At MAL. How did the game analyst on the ACC network thing come together, which you did for many years? Well, when I went, I was at ESPN, and I was doing games, started at ESPN.

You did? But what I didn't, yeah, I did. What I didn't like, when I did Gibbs, God bless his soul, was at Stanford. I know one of my assignments was I did Stanford and Colorado. And Joe Gibbs was out because Corey was playing for Stanford. and I was interviewing Stanford head coach genius at the time

was named just Walsh, Coach Walsh. And I remember doing an interview with Coach Walsh and him talking about his philosophy that's when I learned about because he was in Cincinnati before I got there

and I've never heard more good things about a guy's football IQ than Bill Walsh. Right. So I heard about him in Ohio and then to go out there and he gave me his philosophy and what it would take for Stanford to win and the most important position

in their program with defensive tackles and there's 10 to come out of the year and they only get a chance to get three of the 10 because of the academics. So if he didn't get one of the top 10 of the three guys, they can't beat that seat or UCLA or Cal. And so he was giving me this whole deal

and, you know, but Joe, it was just a unique deal and I loved it, but West Coast games, you know, doing Colorado State, blah, blah, blah. You come here and you go to the post office and nobody's seeing it because nobody cares about West Coast sports out here. Right. So, you know, I was like, you know, I want to do local much prefer. And the other thing was that I was never going to miss my kids playing sports, you know, Friday night. So you can't do that with them.

I needed a package because I'm not going to be there on Fridays and the only package I did Big East with Sims and then I got Jimmy Rayburn and the JP Sports Jefferson Pilot at the time

allowed me because I could do the conference call and knew I'd be prepared so I did that package because it allowed me to see my kids play in high school and otherwise I'd have never done it and so that's what

happened and so because that was so important for me. You know, it's hard, as you well know, all the things that you do, and then to still be a part of your kid's athletic endeavors, is very difficult. You know, it's very difficult. And so, but that meant a lot to me. How many years did you do that?

How long did you do those at the ACC game of the week? It seemed like, 14 years. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. I think so, yeah. It was a while. Yeah.

It was a long time. was doing that and then Westwood was doing like three games a week. And Westwood won on radio. Yeah, yeah. So it was great because you know, as you know as a play-by-play guy, that if you don't, if you love the prep, I like the process. Yeah.

You know, the media guides and learning about what high school they went, all that. Some people hate it. It's like analytics. You're into it or you're not. But if you're into it, you don't mind doing research. If that's what you're going to pay me to do,

and that's a job as opposed to, you know, climbing a ladder, carrying a log on my back, I'll do that. And I don't mind it. You know, it's like we didn't have, you know, you're going all the way back to faxing, facts, fax, and you didn't have the technology. Trust me. Oh, yeah, putting a board together.

Pre-season here. Let me tell you what. Putting a board together for a pre-season game. Yeah, but it's hard. That's the hardest. But what a thrill. I think you're going to pay me to do it. I get to do that and go out and watch film and talk to people.

You either love it or you don't. If you love it and you get a chance to do it, it's great. I was lucky got to do last year's preseason for the Burgeny and goal. And what a thrill. Because I love watching the practice and all that stuff that people may not like. I love it because, again, they pay you to do it. And to me, it's still a game. and I go, you know, I think you're lucky.

Even though what you do and I do, it's not easy, but you still love it. If you love it, you know, it's good. Did you ever get a chance or an offer to do NFL games for CBS or for Fox or for NBC? I don't think you've ever... No? No, because I was doing Westwood One.

No, I was doing radio. Well, you did NFL games for Westwood One, but I'm talking about on TV after the ACC experience. Did anybody ever come to you? Because you would have been phenomenal doing NFL games. I was doing, you know, I was doing five, by that time, 570 was up. In other words, it was so much, too much. Yeah.

You do that. You've got to do one game. You leave maybe Thursday. You're gone three or four days for one game. Right. I was doing multiple games. I enjoyed what I was doing. doing because it fit.

You know, trying to do talk and play by play. It's not easy. But if you can, you know, work that around. And in between all that, you know, coaching high school, I did after seven years. Yeah, Langley. And I was an assistant, you know, volunteer and doing that. So I think as you do, whenever you love it,

10 hours a day, you don't, you don't, it doesn't feel that way to you. You just do it. And being around the game, I mean, you were in business, so you get it. Anybody that's been in real business understands that this is stealing. I mean, compared to, like, you traveling meetings, dealing with people, I mean, just doing that thing, which is cool, as opposed to covering a practice or a game or whatever. when we did play we we we we laugh at it we think it's fun but it's not for everybody and so I think any time in life you get to do what you would do for free they pay you to do it you steal it

all right um yeah that you're great uh you always are I am on the show today why I'm on the show so did you just ask why are you on the show well I'm not I mean the last I don't listen to The last 20 minutes just answered some of that for some people. You never do this to other people. I do. I'm the only guy. Not true. No, no, I listen to you every day.

Okay. So I'm the only person. Oh. Autopsy. Every time I'm on with you, it's like I'm being, I'm being, um, it's an autopsy. Yeah. I'm being investigated. You're investigating.

You're not investigating. I'm interested. I'm interested in you. So. You're not. interesting. You're not interested. Yes, I am. So tell me about last night. Because Doc, did Doc, you know, he's a UCLA man. And that was, I'm in brewing gear today. That was a hell of a game. I can't believe that dude pulled up from where he pulled up with seven seconds to go down by a point. Well, I mean, we blew it. I mean, if you blow the game, they, hey, all hell to the victory. Good, good bag. It's really embarrassing.

because we got these kids, like I explained it on the show. People say, what about you guys are down? We're not down. We got two people that are defensive player in a year, Pac-12 player a year. He's out. But we got five-starred. It's your turn.

The guys that go there, they don't go there not to play. Anybody get hurt. But as soon as one guy goes down, the guy goes, hey, man, my shot. And it's time to go in and they miss shot. They didn't get a job done. I didn't, I didn't, you pulled my tape. Oh, you guys don't have this guy, it don't matter. Whoever's next up is there for a reason.

And so we don't, you know, they blew it. When I left it, it's 15 up 15 points. Okay, there's another one. I hate their games because it's not fun. So first game, they won by 32. Next year, so I'm trying to find an interesting game. Yeah, well, yeah. So I'm surfing, I go, oh, it was great.

Man, watch it. Listen, I enjoyed last night. And when I left him, it was up. 15, by the time I get back. You left it up 15? I said, listen. What? I'm trying to be like you and build an enterprise.

You were working last night. I understand. You were working. I got to watch interesting things. I'm watching Noel. I'm watching all of the games. I'm scanning it. Well, I don't watch blowout.

Up 15. Okay, that's done. I go to another one. When I come back, we're down by 15. that go, okay, now it's going to be fun. Because these guys got a lot of guts. I love the way they play defense. They just, they failed.

They didn't get a job done. So for some schools, this is great. They'd be going, my God, you guys, they're great. If they don't get to a Final Four, it is complete disaster. It's a failure. And you've got to go back in and reload it and get ready for next year. Because unlike other places, if you don't meet that, standard, then, you know, he's got to shake the opponent's hands and get ready for next year.

But we don't do this. It's not about the Pact 12 and all, no, it's final four or bust. I mean, you were there in the heyday of, you know, wouldn't retire in 75. So what was 75 for you? Your freshman or your sophomore year at UCLA? Halfmore. I was there, and I, when they won it, and Kevin Grevy right now, is cringing. It would be Kentucky.

And streaking, streaking was in at the time. Strieking. You may be too young for that. No, I remember the 70s streaking. Yeah. Yeah, streaking was in, and I'll never forget it. They were down in San Diego. John had just announced that he was retiring.

So at that point, and Kentucky might have been a better team, but at that point, that wasn't going to happen. And he would like let you watch practice. I'd go into practices. I was so into it. basketball and Wooden, and I bugged the hell out of him. He would let, you know, I've got to go to Polly, sit in there as long as you don't make any noise, you know, and I'm the idiot that's asking him, because Ducky Drake was also

our trainer for football, and he was John's guy. And so I'd go to, and Mr. Wooden was so nice, and I'm such a dork. I'm trying to figure out, how is you, are you doing this? Why is it working? So I said, what's the most important thing about, you know, being at you, He'll end, Ducky would say he helps them put their shoes on. Every guy comes here, he shows you how to address footwear. And that's true.

I know. You know, and then, and I'm my dumb ass, I'm sitting up there at Paul. I'm watching practice, and all you hear is screeching, a couple whistles. It's not a lot of, no yelling. The very little dialogue is systematic. And I would say to him, I say, coach, why do you allow an open, why did you allow me to watch? He said, Rick, we have nothing.

He said, we don't work on opponents. All we work on is UCLA. He goes, I go, wait a minute. You're not in the same game plan. He goes, our game plan is to execute the UCLA offense and defense. And I was like, wow. So I was like a gym rat with him. I was so intrigued that this guy has set the standard and talking to those guys.

They were like gods on campus. I mean, it was like, you can't imagine. the prestige and how these guys operated. We're starving. Most college people, except for you, you know, you probably had a different setup. No, I sat. I would go watch practices. Lefty's practices were open.

But John, you got to watch John Wooden practice. First of all, by the way, this speaks to Doc's overall curiosity. And into watch greatness. Did you have to, so you knew Wooden, And you went to Wooden and said, Coach, is it okay if I sit in and watch practice? Absolutely. Yes.

And he said yes. Yes. And he didn't care. They were open practices. He didn't care. I asked him, you got to understand. He tolerated me because I was so blown away by it. You got to understand, in Southern California, when you were young,

they had these streets, they had the street going. You would come home, and it was Fonk, not a metro, media five or whatever. Right. I didn't go out until their games were over. When they got those, they had an 88 game win streak. When they lost Notre Dame and Digger, man, that captivated everybody.

You would be a kid going, that's how powerful it was. So I'm in the class of Marcus Johnson, Richard Washington, those guys. So they had, like, when you go to Marcus's place, you hit a buzzer to get into the place. And I did actually interview with Richard Washington and Marcus Johnson. They had, it was real at the time. What was it? Three-quarter. I forget whatever the exact deal was.

But I went to their department. They allowed me to do. I had like an interview with Marcus Johnson and Richard Washington. It was a class assignment for me. But Vass Eddie Alexander was at KBC at the time. and nobody in town had it because they didn't talk. These guys, you think art was hard to get something from. You didn't even think about it with John's guys.

It just wasn't like when maybe would differ with Walton there. But these guys, no. And so I had gold, man. And these guys had smoking jackets. I'm asking questions. For us, we're like trying to get hamburgers. These guys, they had dogs. They had pets.

So the basketball team was treated far differently than the football team. You guys, by the way, were winning the Rose Bowl. You're, I mean... Yeah, but it's day and night. I'm telling you, it's day and night, and, I mean, everybody talks about all the things that may have been going on over there, but for John, it was different, man,

because this dude had principles. Did you really make Bill Wong cut his hair? You better believe he did. If he didn't cut, he'd have been cut. He'd have been gone. The dudes had these rules, and it was no joke. just watching them. Imagine having a coach

take your shoes and socks off and then show you the UCLA way of addressing footwear. This is, you know, a lot of people listening know the story of John Wooden. I've read a bunch of books on John Wooden and the whole pyramid of success

and all of that. And it's, they literally would teach you how to put on your shoes and tie your shoes at 18. years old. The other thing, you know, the other thing that's always come. Why? I'm sorry? You know why? The little things. You know why? Because a blister for a basketball player is terrible. It's tragic.

It's terrible. So he wanted to avoid any foot discomfort and show guys how to address this, not having to shoot too tight, not having it too loose, being taped. That that was a fundamental thing they never took for granted because he didn't want you to miss time. and so I got this because Ducky was his guy, Ducky Drake, who was the track field, everything named after Ducky. But these people, and this is the procedure, these things went on with this guy. And, you know, same thing with lefty or Gary. When you have special coaches like Coach Thompson,

that we had a, we didn't not go to their games. Like, we had a relationship with John. We have a relationship with Gary Williams. You know what I mean? Like you and Coach Turton, you had a relationship. It's different. Prejeant. I had a relationship with Ralph.

So it takes you, like with Coach Lockley, I've known in his whole life, for the most part, because of the 12. It's different. You care about people. You want her to be successful, but you understand what they're under enormous pressure. And it's all about winning.

No matter what, everything's about, can you get the job done, building the program. And those are the things that now what we do from the side we're on now, you do have a different level with it because you understand it. I kid you all the time, but you are a coach. And because you coach on a youth level, you still feel the same thing.

You understand it. And it helps you having those relationships with these guys and you didn't pass it down to the kids you coach. And they benefit from it. And we joke, but it's serious stuff. You know, and you love it. And I know that your wife, they look at you and go, are you kidding? You're going out there again.

Enough about me. No, no, no. Because we're going to. Wait a minute. Hold it. Hold it. Hold it. Wait a bit.

What you do and what you've given to the community as a coach? Can you stop? I've been coaching actually the last two years. I miss it a lot. I know you miss it when you're not coaching to. I know. I can't even. But the wooden stuff.

The Wooden stuff is great. And I just, I have one more question since you were there for practice because one of the things that's, you know, that was always said about their practices is they didn't practice defense. And Wooden's philosophy was, if we run offense the way I want us to run offense, and we're perfect in running our offense, well, when you're guarding us running our best offense,

you will be playing and you will have to play great defense in practice. And so they literally didn't really practice defense. And they could score. By the way, they could score, yeah. Here's the other thing, too. And the glass. Don't miss the glass. They treat the glass.

They worked a glass like any other program I've ever seen. The other thing you brought up Kevin Grevy's name, because we both love Kevin Grevy. He's such a great guy. In that championship game, in Wooden's final game, Kevin Grevy had 35 points in that game. I think it was 35, something like that. He lit it up.

Yeah, lit it up. Yeah, he really loved Kevin, and it's a sore spot with him. Anytime you lose in that final game, first of all, you're glad to be in it. Yeah. But when you're part of that community that has lost the final game, thank God he's won one before. You've got to have that balance because it never leaves you. It's never, it's one of those things as hard as you work to get there. Now, most people, they've never been in it.

They don't get it. If the losers that mock it, that you can tell they've never been around it, they don't get it. But it's something. All right, let's talk some X's and O's briefly, because we're, as John Wooden would say, we're being quick, but we're not hurrying. That was also...

I understand. Yeah. So we'll keep this part super short because I think the other part was more interesting. But anyway, Sam Howell. Yes or no? Yes. Why?

Well, it's yes to start because he will determine his fate. But I trust him. I saw him as a freshman at Carolina. He's not new to me. I was at Tech. So I'm against Burnup Virginia Tech, who I respect. He's got legs. He's got wheels.

Today's game, the mobile guy wins. He has a distinct advantage. if he can run and will run, and he can't, and he's got a gun. So everything we've been trying to piecemeal people to be here, he's got it naturally. Now, can he get to the next level and compete with Berset? We'll find out. But either way, I think our quarterback room is better off than it's been since Kurt Cousin was here.

So you like Jacoby Berset, too? Yes. Yeah. I like what he represents. His physical, first of all, he's outplayed howl because he's older. He's done way more than a kid because he's ever done. He's played one game. He's played a ton under circumstances, and he's proven that he's capable, he's competent.

He can run two. He can make all the throws. He's got all that, and he's been bill tested. See, once you've been Belichick, then I don't have to worry about a lot of foolishness out of the guy. So I trust him now. The question is, what environment is the enemy? That's what you're, yes, that's where he started, yeah. Exactly.

So now it's up to be enemy. I will find out, because this has got to be all the enemy's deal or I quit. I don't want, he's the only person I want involved in. You said that so many times. If something doesn't happen, I quit. If something doesn't happen, I quit. No, I know. I'm never going to quit.

I'm never going to give up on them. No. But all I'm telling you is that be enemy, we don't. score enough points. With this defense potential of this defense, if we will simply give them 21 points to work with or more, outstanding

things are possible here. So I want to quit farting around making heroes out of people that don't score points. We've got to score points to win, and that's why I think with the enemy in charge, we got a shot. How much are you

following the ownership day to day? I know You know. No, I listen to you. And when you get into your, before you bring on, and I swear to goodness, if you keep dishing Neil, attorney Neil Jacobs, and you see, now he's one of your, course, I mean, you are so brutal to your friend. What are you talking about?

He's the best. He's always been your guy. He's the best. Now he's one of our legal. Well, because we have two of the leading. legal experts in the country that come on this show, Howard Gutman and Neil and Rockville. I like Howard, too, but look, how you raise your kids, that's your, I don't get involved with that.

But how you create, your producers, you are so rude to these people. Oh, would you? Would you stop saying that? Because people are actually going to believe you. They're going to actually believe you. They listen to you like I am. I'm a regular listener. So I know this stuff.

You can't, and poor date, you got, you're producing, all your people have been really good. Yeah. But Dean, man, he is. I love Denton. Yeah, Denton's great. Oh, Dent is the dude, man. That's the dude. So, then you got a good thing going, man.

I just, um. Okay. Are you going to answer the question? Are you paying attention to the ownership situation? And if so, what do you think? I don't get involved because I think the deal is. done. I think all this is the farce, and that Bezos is going to be the guy. You do. And all this other stuff we're running around with. I don't get involved in this

because it's not going to help me win. It's going to help me get a stadium. But we can win with Snyder if they would just simply offensive to we score some points. I don't care about anything other than winning games. How are Dan and Tanya doing? When you were over there the other day, How are they doing? I haven't seen, I haven't seen Dan in decades, but I haven't seen, I've seen, I've seen, I've seen Tanya at the last event that I was at, she's fine. They're going to be fine. Everybody's going to be fine. They don't win enough games.

I only care about winning games. So I just stick to that. I let you handle all of the stuff's illegal and all, I don't get into that. Because it's like dealing with the Raven situation with the quarterback. If you want to get in that, you know that's all the negotiations. Now, if you're bored as hell, you've got nothing going on in your life, then jump on board. I got a lot going on. You've got so much going on.

I'm good. And part of what he's got going on, of course, is his podcast, which you can get at patreon.com slash Doc Walker. Follow him on Twitter at Rick Doc Walker. This has been an honor and a pleasure. Whenever I can get you on, it's a blessing. So thank you for doing this. I know how busy you are.

I just hope Cooley's okay. And when he comes back, give him my best. And Cooley's out. I do get Tommy. I do get Tommy. So Tommy has been really great, man. He's the best, man. And he, as you well know, and we always credit him for your success.

Of course. And, yeah, every time he's all, we do it. It's fun. But keep up to good work. Sorry about your brulence. Sorry about your bros. No, no, no. Don't be sorry for us.

Hey, by the way, you're going to, if you, have you met Ed Cooley before? You probably have. Because you're in, he, he's a good coach. And by the way, do you hear any of that introductory press conference? I heard everything, man. He is a communicator, isn't it? He's powerful. He's powerful, and it is what needed to happen.

I'm with you. I love the more Maryland-Georgetown deal. I think it's something, I don't know about the automatic annual, but I think that it's something that needs to happen. Whenever it happens, it's going to be good because it's just an enhancement. Neither program, they can run on their own. They don't need each other to do anything. But when they do, it's always.

special. And it's good. That's good. I mean, I'm not, you know because you know coach. And you know coach and left people good. Yeah. You know. All right. Please, they have a good relationship. Please accept my deepest gratitude for doing this, and I will talk to you soon. I still don't know why you had me on today, but anyway, it's, uh, it wasn't the plan, but I think it worked out well. I'll talk to you later. I'll talk to you later. I think everybody else. No, you know what? No, don't. Don't call me anymore. How about that? I'll call you later on. See you.

Doc Walker, everybody. All right. Up next, Jeff Irman from Inside MD Sports. We'll talk some Terps Hoops, and I will finish up the show with a Sweet 16 smell test part two.

That's right after these words from a few of our sponsors. Kevin looks where the John Q public is putting their cash and does the opposite. It's time for the season. Smell test. Smell test presented by MyBooky. Go to MyBooky.orgie. Use my promo code, Kevin D.C.

If something's written in that promo code section, erase it and write Kevin D.C. Or you're not eligible for the following offer. And that is the ability to cash in and cash out quickly. And that means all you have to do is wager your deposit amount one time and you're eligible to cash out. It's perfect for March Madness. If you want to bet the Sweet 16. games tonight or the Elite Eight games tomorrow or next weekend's final four games of the National Championship game a week from Monday night. MyBooky.ag use my promo code Kevin D.C. By the way, both Elite Eight games are two-point spreads. K-States, a two-point favorite over Florida Atlantic, and Yukon is a two-point favorite over Gonzaga. I was one and three last night,

gave out Michigan State and Arkansas. Arkansas not close. but gave out Florida Atlantic. They won outright. So I'm 13 and 10 for the tournament. I hate to say this. I like two favorites tonight. Houston's a major anti-public side. People are all over Miami and Jim Larenegas squad.

So Houston minus 7 and a half. And then Creighton is the biggest anti-public play as a favorite of the tournament right now. Everybody's on Darling Princeton, thinking that 10 is too high. I'll take Creighton, contrarian style, and lay the 10. So those are the two plays, Creighton minus 10, Houston minus 7 and a half. And with that, I am going to welcome on to the show, Jeff Erman.

Jeff, for you Terp fans know, covers Maryland Sports for Insidemdsport.com. You can follow Jeff on Twitter at Jeff underscore ermine. I want to talk Maryland and I want to talk some tournament, but I want to talk here for a moment because I was thinking about this as I was looking at the Miami game tonight against Houston. And what I was thinking about was Jim Laranaga. And you and I follow college basketball and we, of course, for many years, followed the ACC. And I think that what I thought when Jim Laranaga left George Mason in 2011, was that he was going down to Miami to take an almost impossible job in the ACC, the Miami job. And he was just going to coach for a few years and retire in South Florida and enjoy life in South Florida.

And instead, he is now in his 12th season at Miami. He's won 63% of his games. He's won 54.5% of his ACC games. He's been to the tournament six times. He's in his fourth suite 16 at Miami, and he's already been to an elite eight. He's won two regular season ACC titles, including this year where he shared in the title. I think the Jim Laroniaga story is an amazing one because I would have never predicted that when he left Mason. What did you think when he left Mason all of those years ago now?

No, I agree 100% Kevin. and I felt like he'd go down there and, you know, have some success because he's a good coach, but it's Miami at football school. Nobody cares that much about basketball. Nobody other than Leonard Hamilton has really done much there. And even Leonard Hamilton's results pale in comparison. You know, I think he maybe made one Sweet 16 there. And like you said, Laranagan is now on four.

The guy is just a great coach, one of the most underrated coaches in the country, has gotten good talent down there. So it's really been amazing what he's pulled off. You know, what's interesting is that, you know, he didn't leave after his final four trip from Mason. He had opportunities, and he stayed at Mason for another five seasons before leaving for Miami. And the final year, and this is actually going to take a different twist, in his final year at Mason, they got to the second round of the tournament. And they beat Villanova in the first round, 61-57, then they got blown out by Ohio State. But what's really interesting about that is that was for Jay Wright.

That was what would turn out to be a run of three years of either losing in the tournament in the first round or not making the tournament at all. And Villanova fans had had it with Jay Wright. You know this. And in 20, they were blown up in the first round a couple of times. They missed the tournament either once or twice. and they wanted Jay Wright gone. And fortunately they didn't bail on him because he then went on a run obviously,

which included two national championships and another final four. But remember that? I mean, I've got friends, close friends that are Villanova guys, and I always say to them about Jay Wright, you guys were ready to run him out of there. And they don't deny that. They really were.

Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing how many guys' story is the same, Gary Williams, and Mike Cheshke, the other guys got off to a slow start, and you never know how you wonder how many guys maybe got up to that same slow star but weren't afforded that final year. Obviously, Jay Wright was not having losing seasons or anything. No, no, he had been to a final for us.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, but he couldn't quite get over the hump, and I remember saying he was never going to get over the hump, and now you see him on TV and think, man, that guy could have been, you know, on the list of, and probably, still is with two national championships, but could have been higher, at least on the list of the greatest of all time, you know, and I'm retired early. Well, since we're talking about Villanova here for a moment, and this is a little bit

gratuitous, but I'm going to ask you because I get into this argument all the time about, you know, which programs are Blue Bloods and which are kind of on the outside looking in in the sport of Blue Bloods? I still think personally, Kansas, Kentucky, Duke and Carolina are the four blue bloods. I don't put UCLA in that category anymore. I don't put Indiana in that category. But I always get a lot of pushback from my Nova friends who say, what are you talking about? I mean, Nova is the most successful program of the last decade. They're now a blue blood. What do you say? No, that doesn't make a blue blood to me. That's new money, right? Not that they hadn't had, yeah, Nouveau rich, not that they hadn't had success.

with Raleigh Massimino and stuff like that, so they're not a total pop-up deal. It's not like Gonzaga where they came out of nowhere to be elite, but to me, Blue Blood is historically good. The job where no matter who the head coach is, they're still going to be viewed as elite and has history of going to a bunch of final fours, winning titles, dating back through several different coaching tenures.

And so Villanova, I think, is a very strong program traditionally, but in terms of blue blood, that's what I consider Kentucky, UCLA, North Carolina, those kind of schools. Well, who are your blue blood? Who are your blue bloods? That's a good question. Yeah, as I was saying it, I was thinking, so those three of them, or, excuse me, four are the most obvious. Kansas, Kentucky, UCLA, North Carolina. Duke, you know, it's really hard to say because Shashefsky before him, they weren't a blue blood,

but he lasted so long that are they now, you know, transatlantic. formed into a blue blood because of him. I would say probably, but there's a little asterisk when it's pretty much one coach, having most of the success, turning them into that. So those five, to me, should be at the top of any list, UCLA, Kansas, Kentucky, Duke, North Carolina. After that, I think there's like a second. I'm forgetting someone, and I very well might be.

I think there's a second level where you have, like, the Villanova's and, you know, Michigan State and Maryland. is probably, you know, on that next level down right below them just because, you know, they're a very strong tradition-rich program, but also just the two final fours ever, and they came in two years back-to-back. So, you know, not quite as much postseason success. Yeah, I think I haven't had UCLA on that pedestal for a while, and I do put Duke there because, remember, Bill Foster took Duke to a national championship. And if you go back before that, and this is well before my time.

Vic Boobis had, you know, Duke as a powerhouse as well. But you're right. I mean, you know, Duke feels like a one-coach program. And in John Shire's first year, Tennessee bullied them out of the tournament in the second round. But yeah, to me, it's that next category that, you know, I think we were in it there for Gary's years for sure, you know, towards the tail end of that. But that's, you know, like you said, Michigan State, Villanova, you know, Indiana, probably just because of the history. Yeah, I mean, I'm forgetting some people. Probably Syracuse.

Yeah. Can you fall out of blue blood status, you know, even though you still have that history and that fan base? I'm talking mostly about Indiana, you know. Right. That's one that I thought in my head, as I was saying, they're kind of on that border. You know, Michigan State, like I said, I put ahead at Maryland. I mean, Thomas, I believed it, but I couldn't believe it when they said the other night he was going for a 16th Sweet 16. That's incredible, and that's not even including the Magic Johnson era and things like that.

So, you know, has the Maryland fans listening to us, no, it's not that the program lacks the resources or the fan support to be on that list. They just hope that it can be transformed, obviously. but I think, you know, I think the postseason is really what catches up with them when you compare them. And UCLA, you know, as you said, you know, you're not sure. I think they still are just when you combine, obviously, the John Wooden era, but then since then even when they, you know, you look at the list, they've had some coaches who people didn't think that highly of, and these guys have gone.

Jim Herrick. Jim Herrick won the national championship. Ben Halland went to two national championships. So it's almost like whoever coaches there, even if people think, they're a bad coach, they're still at least getting to the Sweet 16, you know, every other year at worst. Yeah, I'm just trying to think, like when, and I'm pulling it up,

when's the last time they made a final four? Was it the Georgetown? Well, they had the one against Gonzaga a few years ago. Of course, of course. The incredible, the greatest final four game in recent memory, in 93-90 and overtime. Of course.

Yeah, with Mick Cronin. And by the way, I think Cronin actually is the best coach they've had there in a long, long time. Like, I know Ben Hallen was there for a while and did a good job, and that was the, they went to the Final Four a couple of times with Hallen because they were in that final four, the two years, Florida went back to back, right? Weren't they in both of those Final Fours? They were at least in one of them.

I know that. You're right. He is better. Yeah, he is better than how. I mean, Hallen had some success there, Ann Pitt, but Cronin was really good at Cincinnati, even though he stumbled in the tournament sometimes, and even before. that. I think it was maybe Murray State that he, you know, no matter where he was, who's finishing top two or three and going on the tournament every single year.

So he is a great coach. And there are not many places that are better to recruit to than UCLA because you get any kid out there in Westwood. It doesn't matter if they're from California or Idaho or New York City, they're going to want to go there. Yeah, I think you might, I think you've talked to me into, because I'm looking at it right now, they've been to four final fours this century, all right, since 2000. They have not won a national championship. They were in the final that they lost to Florida in 2006. But, you know, it's not like they've gone away.

I mean, look, you know, I'm not going to say that Louisville was ever a blue blood, but they were definitely in that next group. And the season they just had, maybe the worst season ever, Well, I guess Georgetown, but ever for sort of one of those pure tradition, you know, filled basketball programs? How do they keep Kenny Payne, by the way? I don't mean to bounce around, but how do they keep him? I don't know.

I think, you know, it's really hard to fire a guy after one year unless there's some sort of off-court drama or controversy. You just almost never see it. You know, I wouldn't have been surprised if the right guy had popped up if they would have done it, but, you know, I think he'll be on a scalding hot season going into next year. He's in a really tough spot because they don't have that much talent and the fans are very much against him. So that's kind of, they just haven't been able to get right much since Rick Patino left. Right. Before we get to the Terps and the season and more importantly, what's coming up here

over the next couple of months with, you know, transfer portal and everything else, why do you think the Big Ten has struggled so much in the tournament in the tournament here in recent years? To me, it's clearly the playing style and the lack of athleticism. You don't notice it, we don't, you and me at least as much during the season because a big chunk of the games we watch our Big Ten, so you just become used to what you're seeing. Then you get to the tournament and you see these teams just run by them.

I mean, what Miami did to Indiana, just pretty much dominating them from start to finish this Indiana team. that people were in big 10 circles were overhyping as a final 14, but, you know, they had, you know, they were too big, too big and too slow. Trace Jackson Davis is a great player, obviously, but they didn't have any quickness. They didn't have very good guards. And that's been the story of the Big Ten.

They liked this Midwestern, like football mentality of toughness and things like that, and that's fine. But the game has moved, obviously, to quickness and smaller lineups. And it's like every year it's exciting. in the tournament and you just wonder if they're ever going to figure it out and what collectively they might be able to do about it because they're just not even in the conversation in terms of winning national championships and rarely in the conversations even for the final four. Yeah. Look, I think this year was a little bit different in terms of what I thought the league

was capable of doing in the tournament. I wasn't super bullish on any of the teams, you know, as a national championship contender or even a Final Four contender. The one team that plays relatively fast and efficiently was Iowa. And so I thought maybe this is the year Fran McCaffrey gets through. But I've mentioned this a few times, Jeff, and I'm sure you know this. What's really interesting is, you know, Maryland, and I'm pulling up updated numbers, they're 338th out of 363 schools in Division 1 in Pace of Play. 338th, all right, in possessions per game slash pace of play.

But what's, to your point, the teams around them, Wisconsin, Purdue, Penn State. You know, it's a lot of big 10 teams that are way down there at the bottom. Remember in the beginning of the season when they blew out Miami, by the way, the Terps did in a neutral floor setting, blew out St. Louis. A lot of Maryland fans were like, well, this is the kind of pace of play we want. We're pressing. We're running. The league ground, any kind of hopes of being a fast-paced team by Kevin Willard to a halt, screeching halt.

338th out of 363 teams in pace of play. I think some of that is the league. Some of that is he didn't have a ton of depth. And then some of it is a little misleading because of their defense. their average defensive possession length is very long. They forced teams to eat into the shot clock before shooting the ball. So I think that kind of weighed down some of the pace numbers, whereas on offense, they were more toward the middle.

But, you know, with that press that they'd run not really necessarily to get steals, but just to make the other team start their action with 20 seconds left on the shot clock, things like that. So I think that was also a little bit of it. But I do think he, you know, as he gets more players, more athletes, then he'll run a faster pace, especially, you know, beginning next year with these three new guards he has coming in. That's a really good point, by the way. Their pressure, even though sometimes it wasn't pressure to force turnovers or to trap what ended up happening as teams would then set up their offense after handling the pressure with 10 seconds gone in the shot clock.

So they were longer possessions. I don't know if that bears out statistically if they had long defensive possessions, but that makes sense to me. They were borderline elite in that, which is not surprising because he's a great defensive coach. Great defensive coach, for sure. All right. Let's talk about the season. So I don't know, you and I probably talked right before the season, and that's the last time. When you're describing Kevin Willard's first year to people that didn't watch it, how do you describe it. It's an overachieving success. I've written it so many times now. I feel like it's overdone, but they were picked 10th or worse than pretty much every preseason prognostication that I

saw for the Big 10. Nobody had them listed as a tournament team. I don't think I saw a single website or magazine that had them listed as a tournament team. So given those things and given that most people thought it was a rebuilding year, especially when you're relying a lot of the same guys who were on their first losing team, you know, first losing record in 30 years a year earlier. I don't see how you can see it as anything less than a clear-cut overachievement to make it to the second round on the tournament and, you know, be in that top mix in the Big Ten. I totally agree. I also think, you know, there were some memorable wins, you know, the win at home over Purdue, the win the first big, you know, home game against Illinois when they were ranked and

We were ranked. But for me, the West Virginia win in the tournament is a memorable tournament win for this program. And it's mostly because it was West Virginia. And I don't want to act like there's any kind of real rivalry between Maryland and West Virginia. If there was ever a rivalry in sports between the two schools, it would have been in football, where they played each other every year for a long period of time. And by the way, we would see most of the state of West Virginia come down to Bird and take it over some of those. But that was a thrilling game.

Maryland matched their, you know, their physicality, the Huggins style, and punched back. And the last time we saw West Virginia was Mello was getting concussed, and we were getting run out in the second round in Columbus. And I don't know, that was a very satisfying win for me. Did it feel the same for you? Yeah, I think for a lot of Maryland fans, it's extra satisfying for that reason. you know, everybody was so disappointed by that loss and felt like they had been roughed up that year, the mellow year.

And obviously, West Virginia had their number a little bit on the football side too, even before, you know, the series slowed down and they stopped playing until that recent meeting. But I think for everybody it was, and it also, you know, it means a little more that you're beating a team that people think is, you know, a really tough, good team from the Big 12. as opposed to if it was like Memphis or someone like that, someone random like that. It gives you a little bit extra brand power, I would say. So, you know, and also, you know, it's a matchup of two guys

who are pretty much have the same reputation, right? Tough, hard-nosed defense. Their teams always are going to play as hard as they can until the final buzzer. And so for those reasons, I think it was more of a valuable win than the average eight-nine kind of game. And yet the Alabama game, you know, I don't personally think that if Reese hadn't been whistled for that second ridiculous call that they would have won the game, I think it would have been a more competitive game. But they were outclassed. And so, you know, here we are.

Like your description of the Big Ten, I totally agree with that. It seems like for whatever reason, and it's probably the style of play, but they just don't have the long-armed, you know, athletes. that the SEC and the Big 12 in particular have. So what's coming next? I mean, I've talked a lot about their incoming recruiting class, but I want to hear you describe it. And then how do they get more athletic and deeper? So that Alabama is what, you know, they become,

and they're sitting on the one or two line, you know, in a year or two. Yeah, and that's what you have to have these days. A few long-armed athletic big men, some rangy kind of guys, the wing and quick guards. Obviously, they had a quick guard with Jemir Young, but you know, next year they have the number 16 class in the country coming in. It's number three in the Big Ten. The star arguably of the group is Deshaun Harris Smith, who's a guard from Paul the 6th down in Fairfax. He's ranked number 32 recruit in the country, 6-5 guard, just super tough, physical, ready-made for college, but can also shoot and, you know,

had a skill. He would be shocking if he wasn't a starter right out of the gate. You know, I know on our 24-7's predictions for Big Ten, or excuse me, all the conference freshman of the year next year, he was the pick for the Big Ten. And then they have Jamie Kaiser Jr., who's a 6-7, another local kid from Northern Virginia, from Burke, spent this year at IMG Academy in Florida, big-time shooter, really tough kid, was a football player, was actually a really good quarterback at Bishop Ireton, and was strongly considering committing to Maryland as a quarterback before basketball took off for him.

So both those guys, Indiana wanted really badly. Jamie Kaiser also had a strong interest from UCLA. Harris Smith also had Villanova and others. And then Jonathan Lomoth is not quite as highly rated, but he just is accomplished in high school at St. Francis Academy in Baltimore. 6-4 guard, really strongly built. You know, physical guy like Willard Lites. He had really shoot it.

He had 16-3s in a game, one game. 57 in that game. Didn't he get 57? Yeah, really incredible. I've never seen anybody make 16-3s in a high school game. You know, when you're talking about 8-minute quarters. 32 minutes, yeah. That's incredible.

And then they have a big kid named Braden Pierce, who's more of a project. He's a seven-footer from my. IMG Academy guy played baseball until like two or three years ago. So he's a late bloomer. He's kind of the pick and pop Wisconsin-style big man, you know, more of an outside skilled guy who they're going to develop could red shirt next year. So we've got a pretty good crew coming in, obviously, you know, so much of it now also comes down to the transfer portal.

So I think he'll look to fill some needs in the portal too because there's still, you know, the roster is looking solid, but you still need some people. if you're going to be hanging around this time next year. All right. That's a great job breaking down the recruiting class. 16th. I thought it was a little bit higher than that. That's it, by the way, too, right?

There's nobody else they're going to sign for this class. You know, I'd be surprised if anyone else pops up from high school, but I think you'll see probably two guys from the portal, and, you know, so much of it now for the portal has become, like, the main attraction at this point. So I think, you know, from the portal, you probably need to get a shooter, I would say, with Don Carey graduating and the rest of the team not back, created shooting the three. And then probably a rangy kind of big, big forward.

You have Julian Reese at Center, but you don't really have much less next to him unless Dante Scott were to return. And I don't think that's super likely. Okay, so before we get to the portal, and you've mentioned what they're going to be looking for. Who's coming back? First of all, who's eligible to come back? I'm talking about of the seniors. Scott, Young, and Hart, all three of them can come back, right? And we know that Hart, for those of you that missed it,

Hekeem Hart yesterday, put his name, you know, into the NBA draft, into the transfer portal, and said a goodbye on Instagram. But who, am I missing anybody? Those are the three players that are seniors that can come back. Who do you think will come back? No, just those three because the other guys have already played a fifth year, Amelia, and Don Carey, so they're not eligible. I think my gut says Jamir Young will come back, which will be, you know,

assuming it happens huge for them. Obviously, you know, he struggled in the postseason, clearly. I think he was 12 of 46 in those four games between the Big Ten and the NBA tournament, but still, you know, an all-conference guard guy who's going to get you 15 points a game at least, and, you know, is a bulldog and, you know, a team player, you know, not just a volume score kind of guy. So those guys, you don't find them easily if you put him in the back court with Deshaun Harris-Smith, who I mentioned, that has the potential to be a really strong back court, even though Harris-Smith is a freshman.

And then Scott is the only other one. I don't think he'll come back. I can't make any guarantees on that. But from what I've gathered, I think he's more likely to move along. And Hakeem Hart, do you think there's any chance that he doesn't get what he wants in the portal NIL-wise and he comes back here? I'd really doubt it. It's such a rare occurrence. And I think for him to make that announcement and publicize it, that means that they've pretty much said their goodbye.

So I'd be very surprised if that happened. I'm disappointed by that because I really think he was incredibly valuable. And I would have loved to see another year of development. By the way, what about Juju? What about Reese? Are they going to have to come up with a ton of NIL money to keep him? Well, I'm not privy to those conversations, but I think the answer is probably yes. You know, a guy like that is, you know, a guy like Jemir Young is obviously valuable,

but there's a lot of 6-1 guards out there, whereas there's not a lot of 6-9 guys with the athleticism skill of Julian Reese. So I'm sure just the nature of the beast, he'll definitely have to be taken care of. That said, I doubt he'll. hold them hostage because I think he really likes it at Maryland. It's where he wants to be. So I don't think it'll be like a situation where a guy is kind of a mercenary and just going on the highest bidder. So I'm sure they'll have to do something for him because that's the landscape of college sports.

But I don't think there's too much of a risk of losing him. So let's talk about the transfer portal in a little more detail. Do you have any names that you think they'll target? I've heard the kid from Towson. I've heard, you know, a big name from Villanova, who used to play here in the WCAC. Give me some names that you're hearing portal-wise. Yeah, so, yeah, the guy obviously referring to Justin Moore. There's been speculation about him, but he has not entered the portal yet,

so until unless he does, you know, just kind of on the side, just hanging out there as speculation. Chris Ledlam from Harvard is a really good player, six-seven-ish, power forward who you would slide into that Dante Scott spot. They recruited him at Seaton Hall and developed a relationship with him there, so they're hoping that that helps. But, you know, with any guy who's produced big numbers as he has, there's a lot of suitors, a lot of schools after him. Nick Timberlake, who you mentioned from Towson,

definitely way up on the list, you know, average 17 a game, last year at Towson, I think he shot like 41% from three. 45, obviously. Yeah, 42% I think it was, something like that. Yeah. It's an excessive when you're averaging that many points per game. The catch there is he's got a ton of interest, too. He's already had in-home visits with a couple of big-name schools,

so you're really going to have to win a battle there. There's a few others. There's a kid named Damien Dunn from Temple. There's a kid, Marie Abram, who's a guard from Old Miss. but I'm not sure if they need a combo scoring guard kind of thing as much. So there'll be a lot of names. I think there's 8 or 900 names already in the portal. There'll be thousands in there within the next few weeks.

They're really strong recruiting staff, so they know they have a pretty good finger on the polls. So they know the guys are going to be entering the portal too, not just the ones who are in. So when you have that big of a market to shop and you've shown, Willard showed in the first year, you know, I think he's made it more of an attractive option. And, you know, assuming Dante Scott doesn't come back, that's pretty much a starting job on a rising team available. So you've got something pretty good to sell. Yeah. And you put it all together, you know, with if Young and Reese are, you know, the point guard and the big man as the centerpiece of everything else, including, you know, Harris Smith.

I mean, this is a preseason top 20 type of team potentially. Do you agree? Yeah, I think it is. I think if Young comes back, your top 25 at worst, maybe a little higher, and if you can add two good pieces to the mix, depending on how good they are, you could be higher than that. You know, Julian Reese, to me, has potential to be the best center in the Big Ten next year without a doubt, depending on who comes back, obviously, with some of these other guys.

But at least one of the clear-cut bets in the Big Ten, And by the end of the season, he was holding his own against Zach Eadie and Dickinson and these other guys and he's only going to get better. So if you've got to have a piece like that, and if Young comes back a proven second team all conference, maybe first team caliber next year, there's not many teams that can say something like that. So now it's just a matter of adding those finishing touches so you have a little more of the depth that really Maryland hasn't had for a while now. The bench has been pretty thin. All right. Jeff Irman, everybody. Jeff, of course, does a great job covering Maryland Sports. InsidemDsports.com at Jeff

underscore Ehrman on Twitter. I appreciate you doing this. Hope you're well. I'll talk to you soon. Appreciate you having me, Kevin. I'll talk to you soon. All right, done for the day. Thanks to Jeff. Thanks to Doc. I'm back on Monday with Tommy, who's going to do Monday and Wednesday of next week.