The Kevin Sheehan Show - Ernie and Bryce

Episode Date: April 3, 2019

Kevin opens with Bryce Harper's return. A night that started with Harper being booed intensely in front of a near-filled angry park of mostly Nats' fans and ended with Harper being cheered by the Phillies fans who were the only patrons left. Kevin talks about Ernie Grunfeld's firing, talks to Tim Legler, and then finishes up the show with the Top 3 Ernie Era Mistakes. <p> </p><p>Learn more about your ad choices. Visit <a href="https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices">podcastchoices.com/adchoices</a></p> Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You want it. You need it. It's what everyone's talking about. The Kevin Sheehan Show. Now here's Kevin. All right. I am here. Aaron is here. This show is presented by Window Nation. If you're in the market for Windows, call 86690 Nation or go to Window Nation. And tell them we told you to call. Well, when we left here yesterday, the day got pretty busy, didn't it? Just a little bit. Got pretty busy when we were finished with the podcast yesterday. We're going to get to all of it, including. Ernie Grunfeld and Tim Legler is going to join us on the show today. I really wanted to talk to Tim about the situation and the job and how good it is and what he would do. In fact, I think Tim should be an actual candidate for the job, but that's for another day perhaps. I don't know, maybe we'll get into it with him.

I'll tell you what my Ernie discussion won't be. It won't be an exaggerated hit job on Ernie Grunfeld. I completely agree with this decision. I have said for three years running now, even though I used to be a defender of Ernie, there is no defense left. I'm ready to move on from Ernie. But Ernie Grunfeld's not the worst general manager

in the history of sports. And so many of you tried to make them out to be that yesterday. Social media did. Lots of people did. Lots of people who have barely ever watched a Wizards game in the regular season are absolutely convinced that there's never been a worse GM in the history of sports.

Anyway, look, it's been so bad, I guess, that so many haven't been watching. So perhaps that's proof alone why Ernie should have gone. Fair enough on that point. Anyway, I'll get to Ernie shortly, and I'll bring Tim Legler on as well. But I want to start with what was called by some one of the biggest nights in D.C. sports history last night, the return of Bryce Harper to Nats Park. aka the snake pit. Yeah, Nats Park last night was a snake pit. I have many thoughts about last night, and I'm just going to rip through them. I'll start with this. It was not one of the biggest nights in DC sports history.

It was an interesting night, very interesting night, both going into it and certainly during it. It was intense, too. It was an intense moment watching Bryce Harper's first at bat as a Philadelphia Philly back in D.C. But you could have gotten into the park just so you know last night for next to nothing. Plenty of available tickets for very reasonable prices on Stubhub. You know, maybe the weather had something to do with it. I don't know. And I doubt very seriously if the game will do some sort of biggest night ever in D.C. Sports TV rating. I don't think it'll do that.

But it was. It actually did do pretty well. I'm sure it did well. I think it was about a five locally. Okay, so I'm sure it did well, but it wasn't going to do a playoff number. You know, it's going to come anywhere near what the playoff games have done here previously. It was, though, in all seriousness, it was a very interesting night because it was a superstar player. And this city hasn't had many of those over the years.

A former MVP coming back to D.C. for his first game for the first time, And I think many were curious to see how he would handle it, how he would play, and how the crowd would treat him. We've been talking about this ever since he signed in Philadelphia, this April 2nd return. The game was delayed because of the weather. But when he came up to bat in that first inning, he was booed and booed loudly. I wasn't at the game. I was watching on television. if there were cheers, they were barely audible. On TV, which is the way I consumed it,

and I think, Aaron, the way you consumed it, right? You weren't there. Yes, I wasn't there. It was an impressive, an impressive chorus of booing and booze. People dressed up for the occasion, and the dress-up was primarily anti-Brice. Nat's fans seemed to be an agreement on this that he betrayed them, and he was now the enemy.

And I think they did a very good job of making that clear in those first at bats. The moment of his first at bat was intense watching it. It was that kind of anticipation that makes sports so good when you get those moments. You know, it's live, it's unpredictable, it's drama. And it just really always sort of taps into that part of your brain, I guess, that reacts to drama and the unknown and what you're going to see and not knowing what you're going to see. It was a tremendous moment. By the way, as an aside, Carpenter and FP on the broadcast did a great job of just staying out of the way. I thought they nailed it with, you know, that

less is more approach in that moment. You know, it's such an intense moment. And the broadcasting Booth, I'm sure, is also in high anticipation mode, and you can get way too overly descriptive and wordy. They nailed it. I thought they did. It's a personal thing. I was curious as to, I guess I just sensed it as Harper was there and the booze were raining down that there was nothing from the booth, which I thought was perfect for that moment. So anyway, Harper strikes out in his first two at bats, then gets a base hit in his third at bat. And those first three at bats, you know, that was like part one of the night. You know, it was dress up, it was loud booing, it was real, it felt really angry and genuine. And then came part two, you know, after all of the booing

and the dress up for the first part of the night. Because after that third at bat, you know, the park started empty. It was a two-nothing game in the bottom of the fifth. I went back and watched, because I recorded it like frame by frame. You can just see the place emptying after Harper's third at bat, which was a base hit. It was cold. It was damp. I know. I know it was not a comfortable night. But you went from the first part being the loud, negative, intense reaction to Bryce Harper's return. And then after his third at bat, sixth inning, you got to the sixth inning.

It's two-nothing. the ballpark emptied, you know, except for Philly's fans. It was cold, all right? It was an ugly night. It was, I would have been the first, among the first, to leave on a night in early April, game number four, you know, after already seeing what it was like for Bryce Harper's first few at bats. So I understand. I'm just stating that when we got to the later innings, starting in the sixth, and then when we got to the eighth, and he finished his three-for-five night off with a two-run shot and a bat flip in the eighth most of what was left in the park were Phillies fans

who were too lubed up at that point to even know it was chilly and damp and the Phillies fans started chanting we've got Harper and you could hear it on television and then very late in the game I am told Eagles fans, E-A-G-L-E-S chance, broke out in the park. Now, don't tell me that you didn't hear it, because if you were there, you were probably gone. The night started intensely, and I thought it was great with the booze and the dress-up, and at the end, the Nats fans got cold and left, and the Phillies fans were the ones left,

some of which didn't even have shirts on out in right field. while the few Nats fans that were left, Aaron, were bundled up like they were in the Yukon. There were a couple of shots of a few straggling Nats fans there in the eighth and ninth inning, and they had scarves wrapped around their heads, and they were bundled up looking very uncomfortable. The right field group of Phillies fans did not look uncomfortable.

Ultimately, a memorable night, a night in which Bryce Harper man, he looked damn good. Three for five, two RBIs, three RBIs. Made me think, by the way, as I watched him belt that home run late in the game, it just made me think more about why the learners made an offer that had no chance to get a deal done initially in late September, as Barry's Verluga spelled out in his very good story in the post yesterday, and then lowered that offer to kill any chance of Harper Stang in December, January, early January. It doesn't mean that I had a problem with the booing. That kind of emotion last night I'm in favor of. I wish we had it more often for all

of the teams. Caps fans are always that way. You go to a Caps playoff game and it is a fevered pitch environment. I love that about the fan base last night. It was great. I'm just saying that I personally am never going to view Bryce leaving as treasonous. It doesn't mean that I didn't, you know, enjoy the reaction last night, but he wasn't given an offer that he could accept. I mean, that's just a fact, unless you wanted him to accept a lot less money to stay in Washington. And maybe you feel like that it should have been the case, that he should have taken, you know,

present-day value basically $100 million less than he got from Philadelphia. And if you feel that way, that's fine. You're entitled to your opinion. It's really not fair to ask somebody to take a much lesser offer to stay. And not only an offer that's much less, an offer that was lowered from the previous offer, which really, we talked about this yesterday, but is really a way of saying, F you. We don't really want you. You're not taking this offer.

We had this nice little lunch in Palm Springs, and you're expecting us to up our offer, but we're not. We're going to lower it. And we're going to make more of the money deferred. In fact, you're not going to get paid that last part of your contract until the year 2072. So anyway, netting it out, I thought it was intense. It was enjoyable to watch.

I don't know if I was surprised at the reaction necessarily, but I thought it was an impressive reaction. And it came off as, you know, for the Nats fans that were in the park, as we really do view this guy now is the enemy. And he is. He plays for Philadelphia. It doesn't play for us anymore. That's the one thing about what people who are like, well, why, you know, he didn't have a

choice. Well, you know, at some point, he is the best player on a rival division team. Treat him like the Redskins do against great Cowboys players. Right. It's fine. I mean, here are the facts. The facts are that the Nats never made him an offer that he could accept. Are we in agreement on that?

Absolutely. Okay. The other fact is he plays for a team in the division. So he is the enemy by default. Yes. You can think both things. You can boo him because he's on the opposing team that's coming into your park. You can boo him if you want because you felt like you were betrayed somehow.

It really doesn't make sense to feel betrayed. Betrayed would be if he took a lesser offer or an equal offer from another team. Not from taking... Or if he insulted the fan, if he insulted the city on the way out. I think some people were insulted by how favorably he was speaking about the city of Philadelphia. and the sports town and the sports fans. And he's gone over the top here in the first week of the season talking about Philadelphia. And he, you know, he saluted the Philadelphia fans last night after the RBI base hit.

The second base hit that he had on the night, the first one that knocked in a run. But it was all in all, certainly a dramatic night. It was intense in that moment. I love those moments. You're sitting there and you're, not sure what to expect. And it came through the television loud and clear that it was 98% booing. I couldn't hear the 2% if there was a 2%. But you also have to say that at the end of the night, the ballpark was empty, Nats fans got cold and bored and left. You know, in a 2-0-0 game,

they started to clear out. It wasn't 6-0 at that point. You go back and you go frame by frame with the cutaways to the crowd, and you will see. after Bryce Harper's third at bat, which was his first base hit, you will start to see the crowd shrinking. And then by the time you got to the sixth inning, it's empty of Nat's fans, I mean, virtually empty compared to what it was. Was the game a sellout? It wasn't. It was close. It was $35,000, I think. So when I said you could have gotten into the park for a song, you could have gotten into the park for a face value because there were tickets available. The game was not a sellout. Hence, the biggest night in the history of DC Sports.

Please, please, on that. Anyway, they lost the game, by the way. And lost Trey Turner, even bigger. That's the big story coming out of yesterday. Trey Tern... That's not the big story. Well, it's not the big story, but it's the more impactful story going forward. That's right. So they lose Trey Turner, broken finger.

Man, you could see that thing in slow-mo just nail that finger. Yep. So that's a big loss. The Nats also just lost to another division foe, got crushed. Philadelphia is 4-0, and the Nats are one in the... three. By the way, the Mets are four and one now, too. It's a long season. I know the Nats have a very good team. I am going to be interested, though, and we've got to wait here. And when I say, wait, we got to be in mid-May before we really start to seriously consider whether or not Dave Martinez is in trouble. It can't be at one, it can't be at three and nine.

It won't be at three and nine, but this is a situation that you see in baseball where it either happens by early May or it doesn't happen. That's typically the way it goes. Is that true? Yeah, typically if you see an early firing like a before August, before September firing, it happens by like May 10th. It happened last year. I think the Reds fired their manager April 20 something. I, you know what, it's the, we've played four games. The Nats have played four games. They've got a talented team, a talented pitching staff, and Scherzer didn't get any run support early again. But anyway, an interesting night, all right? Very interesting night. I really, I went back when the night was over and replayed that that third inning at bat, and then the next at bat, too,

and it was interesting. It was also, you know, not unexpected that Nat's fans bailed early on the night, and Philly's fans were there at the very end. All right, let's get to Ernie Grunfeld, and I'm going to bring Tim Legler in here shortly. So Ernie Grunfeld was fired yesterday. 16 years, a record here in Washington, that absolutely justified the move. I think that the move would have been justified a few years ago.

I was for a long period of time. I was more of a defender of Ernie. But over the last three years, I've said, and I think I said it to Tommy three, four years ago. Look, if they fire him, I'm fine with it. Let's just make sure that Ted's capable of finding a really solid replacement for Ernie. So it was time to go. Look, 16 years and the record, he had ample time to get better results, and he didn't.

It's funny because I saw him on Sunday at the Michigan State Duke game at halftime, and we talked for about five, ten minutes. and I said to him, you're going to be okay or not? Oh, yeah, everything's going to be fine. I just have had this feeling for a while now that this was going to be the year that Ted made the move. And then Ben Standing, I'll give him some credit on this. He interviewed Ted about a week and a half ago,

and basically, if you read through some of those quotes, you got the distinct feeling that Ted was ready to pull the trigger on this. So I want to say up front, I'm absolutely in favor of this. I have absolutely no problem with Ernie Grunfeld getting fired. I wouldn't have had a problem with it happening last year, the year before or the year before that. I think four or five years ago when the Wizards were back into a mode of looking like they were going to be a playoff team for the next five to ten years with a young wall and a young Beal and a team that I actually thought was enjoyable to watch play, I would not have been in favor of that in that particular moment. But I am in favor of it.

And I hope they make the right move and hire somebody that can get it done. I'm going to, you were going to interrupt. I was going to say, Ted had an interesting, he's talking to the media, either just it or as we speak. He had this an interesting quote here that I wanted to bring up to you. He said, it was for the reason on the firing, it was very, very binary on what would happen this year. didn't meet any of our goals.

And so that was drove, that was what drove it. It wasn't a cumulative effect. Man, Ted talks in a lot of corporate speak, you know. Every, go beyond the corporate speak part. But he can never just come out and say, this wasn't about Ernie's overall record.

This was about a feeling that I had that it wasn't going in the right direction now. You know, it's got, the way he, the way he delivers. communicates. Sometimes it just, it's like this, you know, this corporate babble tech speak thing. Silicon Valley. Oh, my God. It just, oh, it's, it's pretentious on some level. But, but the idea that it came down to one year and only one year is kind of crazy. It's crazy and it's not true.

You know, it's really not true because it's got, if it just came down to one year, it's disingenuous from this standpoint. He didn't have John. Wall this year. He may not have John Wall next year. The injury to John Wall is a serious team injury. And if it came down to just this year, wouldn't you give the benefit of the doubt to everybody in the organization that the best player had a severe season-ending injury or arguably the best player? Come on. That's disingenuous. So there are a couple of things here. First of all, I'm just going to I'm just going to state this, but I don't want you to get it confused with, I am totally in favor of Ted firing Ernie Grunfeld and moving on to the next general manager.

But Ernie Grunfeld has never been the worst general manager in the history of the NBA, or the history of sports, or the worst general manager this town has ever seen. He's not that. You know, I'll ask Tim Legler about that, because one of the questions I have for Tim is, just to get a sense from Tim as to what people around the league have thought. Basketball people have thought about Ernie because it's been my impression. And in fact, I went back last night and went through, you know, the last three or four years of general manager rankings, NBA general manager rankings,

sometimes as put together as a list by a writer, sometimes is put together as a list of basketball people speaking on the condition of anonymity. And Ernie was on one, not one list, could I find Ernie, could I find Ernie, even in the bottom five of general managers? As a general rule, among 30 teams, he was usually listed somewhere between 14 and 20. Okay, so if you get to 20, you're now in the, you know, you start to become a part of that bottom third. And that's fair. Ernie's a basketball guy. He's a basketball lifer. Ernie knows basketball, the biggest problems I've had with Ernie over the years, and more recently than over his 16-year tenure, I think Ernie always missed on character and competitive edge. I think Ernie was wowed too much by measurables and talent. You know, Andre Blatch is upside, you know, that kind of a thing and missed out on whether or not these particular people,

were winners, were competitors, were good teammates. And I think he whiffed on that a lot. I do. I think he whiffed on that just far too often. At the same time, you know, unlike, say, Vinnie Serrado, who never got anything right, okay, during the Dan Snyner of Vinic Serato era, you know, Ernie got a lot of things right, you know, over the years. First of all, let's just start with this.

You know, the Wizards did go to the playoffs. eight times in Ernie's 16 seasons, and you could chalk some of the recent missed playoff seasons really up to injury, whether it was missing Beal for a significant number of games or missing wall for a significant number of games. Very few teams could overcome that. But understand that before Ernie got here, this franchise had been to the postseason. You know, it's, Ernie came in 2003. They had been to the playoffs just once and posted just two winning records

in the 15 seasons before he got there. I don't want to compare him to the previous general managers, and I know what you're saying. That's not fair. Is he good enough for the job? Is he good enough to take the franchise to the next level or not? And he isn't. I'll grant you that.

But to suggest that he's the worst general manager in the history of the organization, you're dead wrong. eight out of 16 seasons, playoffs. And in at least two or three of those seasons, without injuries, they would have been a playoff team. I'm not saying that was the goal, all right? They won some playoff series here or there, and they lost some, you know, like last year in the first round. All right?

So they never got far enough. And when he had the Jameson-Gilbert-Coron team as the first-place team in the east through, I think it was 50, games and then all of the injuries came and he hung on this, you know, we were the first, we were going to be the first place team. I can't do, Ernie, clearly, just turned into Leverro there. But he was delusional to think that that team with Butler and Jameson and Gill had a chance to win a title, even if they had won 55 games that year and been a one seed, they were so bad defensively. were never going to win more than a series or two. But I, you know, if you want to go through, the list of bad is obvious.

He's drafted so poorly, so poorly. The draft choices that have hit were the obvious ones, although Beale wasn't necessarily totally obvious at three overall, but Wall was. No one else in the league who had had the first pick in the draft that year would have taken anybody but John Wall. was a no-brainer. The Jan Vesley miss was tragic because you had a draft in which if you had really looked for not only the measurables, but the competitive toughness, you would have seen a guy like Kauai Leonard sitting there. And other teams passed on Kauai too. You know, he didn't

go in the top five picks, top eight picks. The year that Steph Curry and Hardin were in that draft, Now, they would not have had a chance for Hardin, but to trade that pick number five overall for Randy Foy and Mike Miller is just bad. And I know in the moment that Flip Saunders was there and he wanted to give him a veteran team that could get to the playoffs right away. It was a terrible decision for the future of the organization. Just as an aside, and Tommy will back me up on this. You know, before that draft, I loved one player and I couldn't stand another point. player for the Wizards. I love Steph Curry and I thought he was going to be a really good pro. And I thought Hardin was going to be a bust. So I was right and I was wrong. And I'll never forget the day that

Flip Saunders was hired. Doc and I were doing a show, I think, at the time. And we did the show from the Verizon Center. And we had Ernie on afterwards. And when we got done, Ernie sat there and I talked to Ernie for probably a half an hour. And he loved Hardin. Didn't think, as much about Curry, loved Hardin and loved Rubio. Those were the two players he loved, and then he couldn't get Hardin. And then he traded for Randy Foy and Mike Miller. Oh, the Vesley deal. That was the year, and Tommy always brings it up, and I appreciate him doing this because he usually only remembers the stuff he gets right. But I was pleading with the organization to draft Kauai Leonard, even though, based on mock drafts, it would have been early, and they drafted Veselisle.

He drafted poorly. He did. And not only that, he drafted players and on occasion signed players as free agents who weren't competitors. You know, there wasn't ever any toughness in the organization. But at the same time, you know, he signed Gilbert Arenas the first time. You know, that wasn't obvious that Gilbert Arinas was going to turn into, you know, an All-Star, that he had what it turned out to be a, a, good stretch of years. He pulled off one of the biggest one-sided deals of all time when he traded Kwamey Brown for Karan Butler. Seriously, you talk about a massive fleecing. Ernie dealt the fifth pick and two horrible contracts, Jerry Stackhouse's contract and Christian Leitner's contract, for Antoine Jameson. All right, those two deals alone made the Wizards and actually, playoff team, which they hadn't been in years.

It turned the Wizards, you know, in the moment, from one of the worst franchises in all of sports to a perennial playoff team. You know, they had had one playoff appearance, I think, in the 17 years that preceded that, 16 or 17 years that preceded that, and they made it four straight years after Ernie took over because of those moves. Because of those moves. he then was able to rid himself of Gil's franchise killing contract, one that he signed him to, yes, you know, the arsonist and the fireman, as Tommy always called him.

I do believe that Abe Poland pushed that signing for Gil, that Abe was in his final years and he did not want to start over as a franchise. It was a franchise killing contract that somehow Ernie was able to deal to Orlando. You know, remember he got Arisa and Okafor for the Richard Lewis contract, which was a killer. The point is that Ernie, you know, he drafted guys like Vesley and Singleton and Serafin and, you know, I actually like Booker as a player, and signed Andre Blatch to one of the worst. contracts ever. He did a lot of bad things. He's not the worst ever. I never have thought he was the worst ever, but for a couple of years now, I do agree that it was time to move on, and I'm fine with

them moving on. But I'll never ever think that the guy that sent Nick Young and Javale McGee to Denver, basically, in a deal that brought Neyne back, who was a key cog in a couple of playoff series wins, was a moron. I just never viewed him that way. I just never viewed him that way. He didn't draft well. He made some bad trades. He made some great trades. He made some good signings. He made a lot of bad signings.

He was a middling GM. That's what he was. That's really his record. His record is overall a losing record. I understand that. But wherever he was, he got better results than the guy that was there before. But I'm ready to move on from him. As far as who they hire, I know everybody loves Tommy Shepard.

I really hope that they go out and Ted takes his time and he really tries to find a guy that can identify winners and competitive guys just aren't going off of measurables. And, you know, the coach is going to become another issue down the road. Scott Brooks is the nicest guy in the world and he, the players like him, he's not a great X's and O's coach. This team never plays with any offensive. structure. I think it has hurt John to a certain degree when he's been healthy. I actually thought Randy Whitman was better for John, except that John hated him. You know, everybody hated him, I guess. Anyway, a real quick word about Window Nation, and then we will get to Tim Legler. It's Windonation's annual spring cleaning sales event. Are your windows having issues, cracks, hard to open, unusual

moisture, or are you just window shopping? If so, call Windonation today. Schedule free in-home estimate. Window Nation will save you 33% off your entire purchase, window siding, and doors. Get upfront pricing in no hidden terms, just 33% off every style of window, house of siding, and all doors, including labor. Plus, for the next two weeks, save even more with zero percent interest for five full years on your entire purchase. That zero percent interest until 2024. Get a jump on your spring cleanup and call Windows. Nation, where every window is installed by a factory-trained professional, and it's guaranteed to be done right the first time.

Every window is backed by the company with an A-plus Better Business Bureau ranking and over 10,000 positive online reviews. There are many reasons when Donation has installed right now, the current total is over 475,000 windows and more than 85,000 homes, including mine. I've told you about Harley, Aaron and Eric many times, terrific entrepreneurs, first-rate company, and you've got no risk with a free in-home estimate. Hurry because these off-season savings aren't going to last long. Call 86690 Nation or visitwindonation.com.

All right, let's bring in Tim Legler, who of course covers the NBA and basketball for ESPN, and has always been my favorite person, go-to person to talk hoops with, and I thought about you yesterday, but I'm going to tell you how I thought about you, and you can respond to that to start with. But when Ernie Grunfeld got fired, you know you and I have had lots of coaching discussions on and off the air over a long period of time now. But I always think about whenever a job is available, like the GW job became available a few weeks ago, and I'm like, they should call Legler. and I was thinking when Ernie got fired, Ted should call Legler because there are people that know basketball and no competitors and can identify that and have keen senses of how to make things work.

I've always felt you're one of them. If Ted called you, would you take the interview? Yeah, I definitely would. I mean, if there's no question, look, and, you know, I'm at a stage in my life where there's not a lot that I would consider leaving my current profession because I love what I do. I've got a great job. A lot of people that love sports would kill to do what I do, right, to go and be able to talk about basketball. I'll stay connected to the game. And some people say, well, you don't have the pressure of, you know, the coaching or

running a team or whatever it may be. I say, yeah, but I'm also not competing in what I'm doing right now. And that's the thing that you can't replace. And that's the thing I desperately crave. and that's why I coached all those years AAU basketball, I needed to have a scoreboard on. I needed to have skin in the game in terms of wins and losses and a product that you were contributing to. And so that's what you don't get in broadcasting. And there's only two things, you know, well, three, I guess, if I consider pro coaching as well. But basically coaching, which whether that's a pro team or a division one team, or getting involved in a front office where you have an opportunity to build a roster.

and an opportunity to put your vision and your stamp on a team and turn something around that has underachieved and you know there's more there. So I look at Washington as exactly an example like that. Now, it's not like every team in the league would I be interested in, but obviously, you know, I had some great times there.

I'm from the area. The best year of my career happened in Washington. I do have an emotional attachment to the franchise and to the team, even though I can't go on the air and root for them because I'm in a national place where I'm supposed to be covering the whole league. So your perspective is different, and I have to be honest about them over the years, and that's what I've tried to do.

But there's no question that I would love for the Wizards to be relevant, to be a contender to win more than one round in the postseason. I'd love to be someone to help that happen. So if Ted wanted to give me a call and wanted to talk to me about this, I would love to take that opportunity. I would love to share with him, you know, kind of – there's a lot of things I'm sure about me that he wouldn't even know in terms of how I see things, what my preparation has been to do a job like that.

You know, my communication skills, my leadership, the fact that I have a Wharton MBA, I think that speaks to my work ethic and commitment. I got that after I cut through the NBA. That's the first thing I want to do is go get an MBA from Wharton. I think it shows the kind of – commitment I have to something once I dive in. I can't afford to fail, and I think that's something that someone like me should be given consideration to. The guys that do this, Kevin, and they've done this, and they've done, you know, GM at a different place, or they've been assistant GM, like, they're

probably going to stay in this industry their entire lives, whether it works out for them as the Washington GM or not. A guy like me that's willing to take the risk to leave what I'm doing and a career that I've carved out and established myself in for 18 years at ESPN, a guy like me that has a track record of succeeding at every other stop that he's been in this game and academically as well, to take that leap, I can't afford to fail. And I think that should be something that should be attractive, an attractive quality to someone rather than use lack of experience against you, whether it's coaching or something like this. I think it's something that you should really

strongly consider looking into and saying, man, you know, this guy's willing to put everything on the line and walk away from something he's really good at that has no stress attached to it to come do this. He must really believe that he can do it

and he also is a guy that like I said can't afford to have this go wrong. And I think I would do anything possible. So to at least have that conversation, I would hope that what I've done throughout my career has garnered to respect to at least have that conversation and how I view things and what I can bring to the table. Okay, so we're going to get to the Wizards situation and Ernie Grunfeld and all of that.

But you've opened up a conversation here because I, you know, Ted apparently said they're going to use one of these executive search firms. I laugh every time I hear these colleges, which it's because, you know, Ted apparently said they're going to use one of these executive search firms. which it's become very prevalent with these colleges hiring these executive search firms to help them with their their coaching search. I mean, my minimum sort of experience with some of these search firms going way back when I wasn't in broadcasting, it's like, you know, there's a whole lot of world of theoretical and there's a lot of resume reading and there's not a lot of out of the box thinking or instinctual sort of interviewing. and it drives me nuts. I mean, Maryland used an executive search firm for their football coaching search, and they ended up with the guy that pretty much everybody thought they were going to end up with anyway.

What a waste of money. I mean, Mike Loxley got the job, and I don't know who they brought in. I don't know if the search firm just was there to say, yes, your instincts on hiring Mike Loxley are right, we agree with you, or whatever it is. I don't know why. Well, I do know why. Some of these ADs are true simpletons. They are.

I mean, they're glorified, you know, PE teachers, some of them who wanted to be coaches and couldn't be. Not all of them. That would be unfair to sort of describe them all that way. But they're also in the covering their ass business. And if they use a search firm, they can always point back to the search firm and said, well, look, they gave us these three candidates and we all agreed. They were three strong. Bullshit. Somebody like Ted, who's an entrepreneur.

I mean, he made his money as a. entrepreneur, not as an employee, and Ted's been in the world of tech, and he's been an out-of-the-box thinker, he should bring you into interview. I mean, maybe, perhaps you don't get the job. Perhaps there are five guys that he brings in that are more qualified, but that's the kind of thinking that I think people should consider. And one of the things that I've always loved about you, and I think it's why we've had so many of these conversations over the years, is you can identify talent, you can coach, you know, and I, and when I, he's, you know, and when I, hear you talk about, you know, the competitive thing. Of course, sitting on set with Van Pelt,

you know, at 1230 in the morning is not satisfying your competition, Jones. And I think anybody that's been where you've been can understand that. It's something we always hear from former athletes, former professional athletes in particular. But, you know, whenever we've had conversations over the years about the teams that we've been coaching at the AAU level and I've called you up and asked you for advice or whatever. The one thing that's always stuck out, and by the way, this has been the one major problem I've had with Ernie over the years, is you recognize that the personality and the competitive edge that you have to have to build a winner. I think it's one of the reasons you and I both love Russell Westbrook so much

and not everybody loves them, but I'd kill to have somebody with that kind of killer instinct and that kind of competitiveness on any team that I root for or at a young level coach. But I think Ernie always missed that in the players that he signed. Like there are just too many guys that look at the measurables, that look at the talent, that think they've identified the skill and it fits with us. But they've missed out on, yeah, but the guy doesn't have it. Like he's not a killer. Like he's not. But anyway, you, You should really figure out a way to get in front of Ted. Hell, you know, I'm serious about this.

I don't probably have a great relationship with Ted. I mean, very limited, you know, interactions over the years, sometimes him lecturing me on what I should be talking about on my show. But that goes back many years ago. But I'm going to write him a note. I'm going to write them a note because the search firm's going to produce resumes. That's what it's going to produce. I don't.

Yeah, and unfortunately, that's been the most frustrating thing of what I've dealt with the last few years when I decided to, you know, I needed to do, I needed to get involved in coaching. That's where it really started. And obviously, I'd be open to something like this as well because you are building a product and the wins and losses are a reflection upon you as well. And that's something that, you know, I want to go to the arena every night and I want to have those butterflies on my stomach. And I miss that. So whether it's coaching or doing something like this, and one of the most frustrating things has been the service. firm's component. And you hit on a lot of real key points as to why they exist. To me, I think that someone came up with an idea whenever these things started. And to me, it's a little bit of a

scam that's going on where someone identified that there was a need to prey upon the insecurities of the decision makers. Because what you're doing as a search firm, you're saying, I'm going to take all the pressure off of you. Because if I go out and I identify the candidates and I give you a small pool, and now you're going to go ahead and interview that small pool and come with the decision, and I'm going to sign off on that. Now we're both on the same page. Now, you can go to the people you answer to, and you can now be – and in case of the owner of the team, I guess that's really probably like the media and the fans.

Like that's who you are then accountable to. But if you're like an AD at a school, well, you're accountable to the president. So you now, if a search firm signs off, and they got you to candidates in the first place, takes all the accountability off your desk. So that's what someone identified that started these search firms, and the guys that run these things. They're praying on the insecurity of these people. Because I agree with you, the fact that you can't be an athletic director at D1 school and say, okay, I know so much about this that I'm going to get X amount of calls that are interested in this job.

You know, let's say you get 25 calls. Well, I can rule out 10 to 15 of them probably. pretty quickly. So I now get down to my initial 10. I'm going to interview all of those people. And I'm going to get down pretty quickly to five of them that I want to talk to again. And I'm going to, before you know it, a couple of weeks, I'll be down to three. And I'm going to make that decision. But what the search firms do is I'm going to take a lot of that stuff off your plate. And the biggest thing being, no one can come looking for you. The villagers aren't coming with the torches if this doesn't go right or this goes off the rails because that's what

you're paying me for to take the accountability there. So it's frustrating. So what are the search firms looking at? They're looking at coaching tree. They're looking at who you connected to. How many years were you as an assistant at what program? And a guy like me is a completely different approach. And if you don't want to sit down with me and literally get to the meat of what do I know about the game, what am I going to implement, how can I lead, what are my communication skills, how am I going to be able to recruit and why? If you're not going to get into all of that with me. You're just going to base on what my resume says, and my resume says, oh, no D1 coaching experience, so we're not interested. You're really doing yourself a disservice. And it'd be the

same way in this situation, Kevin. If you haven't listened to me over the last 18 years, and every time I get a chance to talk on ESPN about the game, if you don't pick up that, you know, this guy's pretty sharp and it seems like he's very passionate about this and he's honest and he can identify things that you don't hear out of most people and that's not worthy of at least talking to me about what my vision could be for a job like this.

I just think you're doing yourself with this service regardless of what the search firm says. Search firms. I mean it's one thing as a publicly traded company to be looking for a new chief financial officer or chief operating officer or a senior VP of something

and you're running a company to have them you know, clear through, you know, 50 resumes and bring you the top five people. But we're talking about a small universe of potential candidates with people who are much more sort of, have much more expertise in being able to identify someone for their job than a search firm would. I totally agree with you on that. And there's one other point I want to make on this. And this just frustrates me sometimes too because, and I have an incredible amount of respect.

for everybody in the coaching profession and the guys that have paid their dues and I understand how hard it is I really truly do but you know I've said I've said the searchers I've interviewed with search rooms specifically because I was told well you can't get anywhere if you don't get some traction with the search reps because they're running the show

there's about four or five big ones in college basketball said if you don't go get these guys to understand who you are you have no shot so I literally went and interviewed with some of these people just It's just so they could get to know me better. And it's interesting to me because a lot of the guys that went into college coaching right out of their college career, right? They went and became a graduate assistant and they just worked their way up

and hopefully they made the right decision about who they aligned themselves with. The next thing, you know, you're sitting on the bench next to some guy that's a really big name in college basketball and now your turn's going to come somewhere, right? Well, I've said to search terms, do you know why those guys went into college coaching right out of college? Because they weren't good enough to keep playing. Right. And that doesn't mean that every player that was able to become a pro or whether it's overseas or the NBA or whatever like I did. That doesn't necessarily automatically mean that translates to being a guy that can coach. Right.

But one thing it does say is this guy was good enough, had the work ethic, had the talent, had to make all that happen, which is the dream of every single guy that sits on a bench in college basketball, every single coach. every single coach, they wanted to be on that level. At some point, they thought about it as a kid. They wanted to do it. A guy that actually pulled that off and on top of it has these other unique qualities, if that's not someone that you want to talk to and say, you know what, there's something about this guy that he will not accept failing.

I need to talk to that person. I need to find out what exactly it is that may be different about them. It differentiates themselves because if you're comparing resumes about coaching, I'm not going to be able to compare. Right. But if you want to listen to me and spend a day with me, I think you're going to find out pretty quickly. I'm not going to be like anybody else you're bringing in here.

And that's been the frustrating part to me is not even to be able to get to that point where you can enlighten somebody. That's very, very frustrating. Look, I think, you know, while we're sitting here talking about, especially in colleges, the use of executive search firms to sort of cover asses and help maybe some that legitimately needed, I can't imagine that the majority really do need it. There is also a simultaneous, you know, movement, and I don't know how big of a movement it is, it's probably not big enough. but, you know, John Lynch being hired out of the broadcast booth to be a general manager for the 49ers was out of the box thinking. You know, that was, this guy hasn't coached, this guy hasn't GMed, but he's super bright and super capable and somehow got the interview and killed it. And that's your position.

You know, it's sort of been Coley's position too because I've had so many of these similar conversations with Cooley over the years that, you know, if you can get in front of. of the right people, then you'll sell it. But it's getting into that position. Well, look, you're 100% right about the television and the exposure and the broadcasting and what that gives you the platform to do, which is educate people and like what you know. And there is a pattern now. I mean, Chauncey Billups basically turned down the Cleveland job. He didn't want it because I think he didn't like the direction that they were going in, and he was afraid that that was going to make it impossible for him to succeed. But it was his job if he wanted it. And he's never

done anything like that before. Brent Barry is, as we speak, is now being groomed in San Antonio. He might be the next guy there. He walked away from TV to do that. And in other aspects, it's happened. Look at Aaron Boone. Aaron Boone never coached the day of baseball in his life, and he got

the Yankees job, which might be the most pressure-packed high-power job in any team sport. Herm Edwards, who had coached before, but came out. He's been out in Arizona. He's an Arizona state. Kenny Smith has a lot of desire to do it.

I know he's got an interview with the Knicks. It's like it's something about it where people can sit there and watch because you do get the opportunity to go on there and show your intellect, your communication, your leadership. And most importantly to me, your passion. Like how passionate are you about doing this? And are you willing to go roll your sleeves up and get dirty and put the work in? And obviously the life that I've led and the route that I had to. take even to get to the NBA, and then coming to ESPN, I was one of the first guys they ever hired that wasn't like a star.

I was a role player in the NBA, and I'd been here for 18 years, and I've sat next to probably 50 to 60 guys that sat in the chair next to me that aren't here anymore. And then same thing was what I did with the coaching, and taking a group of local kids and ending up on the Under Armour circuit with two high major players playing against teams that had eight to ten and beating those teams regularly. I had to go about it a different way because my determination is such, it's unique. And I think when you hear the passion from guys on television that have an opportunity to express themselves, there's a reason that guys are getting, you know, the people are reaching out to you

to come make more important decisions than broadcasting, which is actually affect the bottom line and affect the wins and losses with the organization. So I just think it's, I think to me, to not at least explore that, you are not doing your due diligence and doing your job as an organization. If you don't explore candidates to have unique qualities, to at least listen to what they have to say so that you feel like I've explored everything. I've turned over every rock. I feel confident now, whoever I do hire, is the best person for the job. But to stiff arm someone at the door, whether it's coaching or front office position like me, I don't think you're doing yourself justice by, actually exploring every single avenue because there's a very qualified person that wants to come talk to you.

I think you should probably talk to them. I agree. All right. Well, let's get to the Wizards, although I just, two more comments, and then we'll get to the wizard's situation. Number one is that the thing that you haven't mentioned, that I will mention, is that if you, especially in a college setting, you've got visibility. Like, you would have a recruiting advantage as someone. who could walk into the homes of high school kids and AAU coaches. You've been on television for a long time.

People know who you are. I'm not sure. I mean, that to me, if you met every single expectation with respect to coaching and mentoring and handling young people, that would be a huge bonus. But the last thing I just wanted to ask you on this before we get to the Wizards is, my gut tells me, after having all these conversations with you over the years that you would be a, that college coaching is really where you should be. First of all, in what, from one respect, it's sort of the coaching you've been doing, right? High school and

college are similar. Pro is so much different. But that's where I think you would really succeed. Am I wrong or not? Is that your preference? I think, yeah, definitely. Definitely. And I think if I, if I, you know, ranked him in order, it would be Division I coach, then it would be front office with an NBA team. That's how I would prioritize that. But I'm interested in both. But the college coaching is definitely, you know, that for me is like what really gets my blood pumping. And I have, you know, nothing can really replace the times that I spent in all those years and all those games and all those tournaments and all those things I did coaching and all of the things I did to impact those guys' lives. Because that to me is why it's more attracted to be a college coach than a pro coach is the genuine impact that you have on that.

particular young man and and the things that I can show them and teach them and impact them to be successful in their lives first let's take your let's take you as a player as far as we can I did it I'm going to show you how to do it and if you are if you do get to the point that you're good enough I have a really good pipeline to the NBA to make people understand that if it comes out of my mouth they're going to come look at a guy they're going to take a guy seriously they're going to take my opinion seriously because I've got the credibility that level but guess what that's 1% of the players. Well, what about the other 99%?

I'm going to also have the kind of impact where I'm going to prepare you to go out into life to be successful and be a responsible human being, be a responsible father one day, be a great husband, be someone that is a great teammate, all of the things that you need to succeed in any work environment. Like that drives me, man. I look at the team that I coached and I'll be invited to, you know, every single wedding of every one of my players.

and I was hard on my players and I pushed them. But every single one of those kids, every one, and I got two of them playing in Power 5 conferences right now. And who knows, they might play professional basketball. Everyone, including those guys, will say that was the best experience that they've ever had in sports because of the environment that I created and how important it is to me to create that environment while also putting a really competitive team on the court.

Kevin, I've literally envisioned myself in daydreams and in night dreams, coaching in the final four. I bet. I completely see myself doing it, and it's an expectation I have. But if I don't get someone to have an open mind and think outside the box, and just listen to me and spend a day with me. And also, by the way, listen to the people that are, I think, are pretty heavy hitters in this industry in college basketball that have seen me actually coach.

not, so you don't just have to go by the fact that I sound smart. They've been there watching you coaches their scouting players. Yeah, talk, talk to the people that have seen me in a gym with, you know, 30 of the best high school players in the country. And the people running the camp go, okay, legs, you take this next three hours and put them through this workout. Let let them talk about how I was able to take a team with two high majors and beat teams that had eight and because of what I was running and the way I got kids to run it. like people have seen me in this setting guys like you know j billis and franfichilla and if you're not listening to them if they call you up and you don't think that what they have to say matters and they're not just going to back me because i'm there because they're my buddy because they wouldn't put

they would not risk their reputation if you don't think that guys like that matter in their opinion that have seen this and if you just you know listen to them and know what they know and they're willing to endorse me for probably any job in the country if you don't if you don't take that seriously, I just don't know what exactly your problem is, other than there's an arrogance level there that, well, you know, you're an outsider, we got this inner circle, we know, just stay in your lane, we got this. If that's what I'm going to face on every step of the way, then, you know, this opportunity you might not come.

I just, I don't know how much more passionately I can describe, like, what I think I can bring. I can't. I can't earn the right to at least have an interview. I just can't wait until the day that we're in the final for you as the head coach, me as your number one assistant and we're sticking it to all of them. All right. Oh, you have no idea how much that motivation. Let's get to the Wizards.

I wanted to ask you, I wanted to start with just Ernie because I have, I think you should, I think this was long overdue. I am not in the camp of most people in town that the Wizards have had the worst general manager in the history of sports running their organization for the last six years. I don't feel that way at all. I've never felt that way about Ernie. I like Ernie, and everybody likes Ernie, but I've never thought that he was great, but I never thought he was terrible either. What did people, and what do people around the league think of Ernie Grunfeld? Yeah, I think in general, I think he's got a good reputation as someone that, you know,

he garners respect. I don't think there's any question about that. I think there's a, you know, a realistic approach in professional sports to understand. If, if you've been somewhere that long if you are not consistently meeting or exceeding expectations. And in the NBA, what does that mean? I mean, over half the teams in your conference make the playoffs. So if you've been to somewhere 16 years, I think people understand you better be making the playoffs pretty much every year. I mean, you could have an occasional blip where you had a massive injury or like some

other unforeseen thing. But, you know, basically you're going half the time and over half the teams make it every year and, by the way, never really sustained, you know, a real threat to actually win the East. People understand 16 years is an eternity. So I think Ernie gets respect. I think people are appreciative of his knowledge, and he's not, look, I follow it. I read all of the columns. I follow all of the media in the Washington, D.C. area.

I get, everything's on my iPad. I read it every day. I stay very in tune with what the opinion is and what people think from the media. from the fan perspective. I get it. And you tend to always overreact and people tend to form opinions that, you know, take it too far with how bad they think a guy might be. And I think that's been the case with Ernie because I think around the league,

I think Ernie Garner's respect and I think people like him genuinely as a person. I also think they get that, like, look, man, 16 years is a really long time. And it's not great timing to act in your 16th year to have the kind of year that they just had. Injuries aside, it's just, it feels like a really empty, hollow, lost season. And when you have one of those at the end of a 16-year run, the timing's not great. And people foresee change. And that's why no one was really shocked. And to be fair, I think that there have been moments over the last several years that it would have been fair had they moved on from Ernie. But that doesn't make them the worst general manager in the history of sports, which is what people in this town have

tried to make them out to be. But I, for a few years now, and I was an Ernie supporter for many years, but for a few years now, I've been like, I'm ready to move on too. This is, you know, among my two or three favorite teams that I root for, and it's been painful at times. And a lot of that's been out of the control of the front office, but a lot of it within the control. Obviously, the injury is not. What kind of job is the Washington job now compared to other jobs around the NBA? I think it's a super attractive job. I really do. Because there's an energy and a vitality in that city,

and they want this team to be good. And they're going to get the support. They're going to get the passion. People love hoops there, and they want this to happen. It's particularly when you look at what's going on with the Redskins. So that creates even more of a desperate urgency for the franchise to be good. It's there. The vitality is there.

so the market is great for it. And I think when you look at candidates that would be looking at this job, I think that's a big component in it. How much does that area want this to be great? And what will that look like if you turn this around and you've got a perennially competitive team? It's going to look like something that's electric. I really believe that. And so for me, the job is really attractive.

When you look at the roster makeup, because that's the other thing that guys are going to look at. How, you know, how tied up are you? What's this going to, what's this going to involve? When you look at, obviously, the John Wall contract gets a lot of attention because it's massive. And, you know, there hasn't been that level of success as an organization with him as your leader and best player where you go, okay, this guy's making $45 to $48 million for the next four years, and now he's got an Achilles injuries coming back from. Does that give you trepidation? Yeah. Because look, the bottom line is he's your best player. He's at the top of the roster, and he's hurt,

and you don't know exactly what that's going to look like when he comes back or when it's going to be. That's not something that's super attractive, someone coming in. What is super attractive is you got Bradley Beal, a guy that whether you love him and want to move forward with him, is an elite offensive player in this league, and he's at a number that's palatable moving forward. So whether you think that he's the guy,

or you think that you can go out there and get a ton of assets in return, regardless, that's an incredibly valuable commodity with his age, the number he makes, and his talent level. So that's very attractive. And then the rest of this roster, I mean, there's no commitment to anybody in the future. So I think the blank page aspect of this is something that would be exciting to someone that's looking at this job as well. And, you know, you have to, again, I'm a big believer, and you've got to envision, you know, your dreams, right? in your goals in life. If you're looking to take it this job, you've got to sit there and spend some time

and think to yourself, what is this going to look like when I turn this around? And this is a competitive team. And not just for a year, where you're like year by year, you don't exactly know, which is what it's been doing now for a long time with this team. And you always feel a little bit empty at the end of the season. But there's been blips during the year where you go, okay, yeah, they look pretty good now. Maybe this is the year and they're competitive enough where I'm buying in. No, I'm not talking about that.

I'm talking about a sustained commodity that every year you know going into it is going to be in the mix. When you get to that point, what that's going to look like in that building, in that city, man, that's going to be electric. And I think that's something that a lot of guys that are going to be looking at this job are going to envision because I think the possibility is there. I think one of the problems with the NBA, and I've felt this way for a long time, is that if you don't have a top five player in the game, you can't win the title. So then unlike any other sport, you almost have to then create realistic expectations. Like what is the definition of success if we don't have a top five player in the league? Is it getting to the conference finals?

Is it getting to the NBA finals? But losing the Golden State, you know, over the last several years, would it been, if you were an Eastern conference team, would you have had a successful season? if you got to the Eastern Conference finals and lost to Cleveland. I mean, you hate to say that as a competitor because the championship is the goal, but it is a completely different sport than any other. We've seen it. You cannot win a championship unless you have a top five player.

So to get one, you either have to be in one of these markets and have the available cap space or have a unique situation to attract one, or you've got to draft one. And a lot of that comes down to luck, doesn't it? Yeah, no, there's a lot of truth in what you just said, because that is true about the NBA. And it's very difficult if you're on the outside looking in to get into the inner circle where you're one of the teams that's actually vying. And if you don't have one of those guys,

and honestly, in today's game, it takes more than one. It takes multiple guys that are top 25 players. One of them's got to be in the top five, and the other one probably has to be in the top 10 or 12. Yeah, so I agree with that. I think, you know, that makes it really difficult, and I think there needs to be a realistic understanding of that as a fan base and the people that, you know, follow the team and write about the team and cover the team.

But I do think also that you have to be a team in a city and a market that even makes that possible, whether that's through free agency or, again, if you want to strip it all the way down and try to get one of those guys in the draft, you've got to be in a market that if you go out and explore free agency, that you can actually attract a guy to come that's on that level. I do think Washington's in that category. I think guys like the city. I think they like the vibrancy there. I think they understand that that's a good place to play. But why aren't they ever able to attract a big name free agent, though, because

it hasn't happened over the years, and I agree with you. I've always felt like the Wizards of the Sleeping Giant in this town. If they were ever to compete for something in in late May and June, it would be massive. I mean, we know that at its core, there are more people interested, involved participants in basketball than anything else. It's a Redskins town, don't get me wrong, although that's starting to change a little bit. But the opportunity is huge, and D.C. is a great place to live. It's a great place to raise a family. Yet, why aren't they ever among the teams that are vying for a prized free agent? that's a good question

I wish I had a great answer for that I think I'd look at a team like Philadelphia as the same regard I guess you're talking about top six market in the country great sports town and yet when those free agents

hit the tour on the summer every summer right there's a list of like three guys that everybody wants that are the big names in this league and they go hit their tour they don't make stops in Philly they don't make stops in D.C. So I agree with you

it doesn't happen it hasn't happened And I think in this particular case, it's got to be the winning has to come first. You've got to be in a situation where you turn this thing around and it looks like there's competency. And you're starting to put together something that's viable and going to be a winner. And now all of a sudden isn't it amazing that now guys will start to look at it differently. And that's what's happened even in Philadelphia now. I think it's just viewed entirely differently. Now they stripped it down and became an embarrassment to end up with guys like Joelle and Beat and Ben Simmons.

but now you've got other guys like Jimmy Butler about buying into wanting to be there who's an all-star and whether he stays or not who knows, but he wanted to go there in the first place. Tobias Harris is already talking about, he wants it to stay there. You've got to win first and you've got to show guys that we're competent. Like we're turning this around,

and we are in this, you know, legitimately to win. And once guys start to buy into that, well, now you elevate some of those teams that maybe are on the second tier in terms of free agency. agency, and you can now compete with teams that every year seem to be in the mix. You know, regardless whether they're good or not, by the way, like, somehow about Lakers come up all the time, and I'm like, that Laker mystique is gone, man. Like, that's just not there anymore.

Now, I'm not, I'm talking about pre-Lebron, like in those five or six years before LeBron got there. And every year, the Lakers come up for these big names. I'm like, why? Why? Just because of the off-court endorsement opportunities? Like, I just don't buy into the mystique of some of these. franchises, but they're always mentioned. And I think a city like D.C., a city like Philly,

I think they're, if they have the right people in place and they actually have a vibe around the league, like, okay, man, they've turned this around, they're getting this right, and there's a competency there, and they are going to put something together that's long-term sustainable, you will now get free agents more attractive in those markets. Look, it's, you hit it. The winning has to come first, and the winning comes first, if you were Oklahoma City and you're able to draft Durant, Westbrook, and Hardin. If you're Milwaukee and you're able to draft the Greek freak. That's what happened in those places.

They got super lucky, or they were super smart in the draft, and they drafted that transformational top five player. They started to win, and now all of a sudden there's a different vibe about the place, and this has been the problem with Ernie Grunfeld, as he's had opportunities to draft some of these players. You know, Steph Curry was there. for them in that draft and he traded that pick for Randy Foy and Mike Miller. You know, he drafted Jan Vesley when Kauai Leonard was potentially, you know, the pick.

And you can say that about a lot of teams that missed on these various players and star players, including a Tenacompo. But I, you have to, you have to land one of those and you got to win first. So to be then thought of as a destination, like, hey, D.C.'s cool. their winner. I'm going to go help them get to the next level and win a championship. So let's just say Ted did interview you, and you had to lay out a plan for the Wizards right now. What would the plan include? Man, you know, and unfortunately so much, you know, certainly resolves around John Wall.

That's a big piece, man, because I basically view John Wall is a completely untradable commodity. Right. I mean, I think you'd agree with that. In this day and age, yes. I mean, remember, one of the things Ernie did well was get rid of some horrific contracts over the years. No, he definitely did it right now. They're in position now where they've shed a lot of that. It's amazing they've gotten under the luxury tax threshold, which I didn't know that was going to be possible. I don't know why they didn't deal Arizza.

There was something to be had for a reason. I'm a huge Trevor Aiza fan. I don't think they should have traded him in the first place or let him go in the first place because I didn't think KD was ever coming here. So the Wall uncertainty, and you're on the hook next year for, I think, it's $38 million, and $40 million the year after that, and $43 million, you're stuck with that, right? In this day and age, no one's trading for John Wall in that contract with all of the surgeries that he's had. No chance.

And the scary part right now is based on a guy that is, you know, his entire game is predicated on speed. like what's the differentiating quality that John Wall has? It's his speed. It's his up-the-floor pressure that he puts on defenses, and it creates so many opportunities for other guys. It's the athletic ability. That's what it is. It's more than his shooting, more than his intellect, his mind, his IQ.

It's his speed. It's his athletic ability. That is his differentiating factor as a player that has put all this money in his pocket. and you're talking about this kind of injury to a guy that plays that way. Is there even a list of guys or a track record that you can go to and look at and say, well, here is tangible evidence that guys that play that way, and that's what they're relying on, come back 100% from that injury. That's why there's so much scary uncertainty right now with him.

He might not play next year. I mean, if this team gets off, and I think he probably would, I think realistically, you're looking at probably January, February. If this team gets off, you know, they're 10, 12 games under 500 or something like that, does he play it all next year? Yeah, I mean, that's a big unknown. I mean, I think that's a realistic possibility. And look, so whatever, okay, let's say he doesn't.

And so your expectations can't be great next year. Obviously, you don't even know what your roster is going to look like. You got a bunch of dudes whose contracts are expiring this summer. So you don't even know right now who's on the team, and you've got this guy who might not even be there. He might not even play. So you basically have to go into next season, and you can't have expectations.

You've got to put all of those to the side, and it gets to the point where you're starting to think about beyond next year because your roster is going to be totally different. You've got to wait for him to come back and find out, is he going to be close to the same player that he was before when you're still going to owe him, you know, what, three more years at that point at that kind of money. So you've got to see that first, Kevin, honestly, before you really know what you can put around him and what that's going to look like.

I do agree he's completely untradable. Like, this is going to be your player for the next four years, whatever version of that that is. And hopefully he makes a full recovery. I'm pulling for him. I mean, I want nothing more than that. If that's the case, then I think with Bradley Beale and John Wall there, I think people that think that, like, and I've heard criticism, you're not going to win with those two guys. I don't agree with that.

I just think you have to have more discipline on that team, and you've got to have more guys on that team that are tougher guys, guys that want to go into an alley with, guys that are winners that make winning plays that have an edge, guys that in some cases have been cast off other places, but have a lot to prove and a lot to play for every night. And then I think you've got to have a lot more structure with what this team does offensively.

I think letting them play a pickup style basketball, which is what I see a lot of nights, I think there's a problem there. That just doesn't work in this league. I think even a team like Golden State, there's a method to what they're doing every time up the floor. And look, they've got unique guys that can allow it to happen. So I'm not saying you can be Golden State.

What I'm saying is, I don't care who you have and what your talent level is. You better have some sort of a plan with player movement and ball movement and continuity and accountability offensively to what you're going to do and pay attention to the details with screening and timing and cutting and the pace you're going to play at. and just being smarter, and I don't think there's enough of that on this team. And if I am running this franchise and I'm going out to try to identify talent, I want guys that are tough, I want guys that are smart, I want guys that I feel comfortable every single night going out there,

I know they're going to lay skin on the floor because it matters that much to them. But I've got to give them, you know, if I'm running the team, you know, figure out of way with the coach, To put in a blueprint that gives them success offensively with more structure and something that you watch and you go, I see a plan in place, not just, I'm going to watch these guys play because, you know, John Wall and Bradley Bieler, that good offensively, I'm just going to let them be. I just don't think that's an approach that's going to win in this league with this particular talent base,

but I do think those two guys are good enough with some of the changes that are going to take place at the top of the Eastern Conference and that they might not. Maybe Kauai stays at Trino. Maybe he leaves. And if he leaves, that's going to look a lot different in a couple of years. What if Kyrie leaves Boston? They still a lot of young talent, but you don't know right now what that's going to be. They've underachieve this year.

You know, Janus is Janus, but that's a team that, you know, and I like what they've built there, is that something that they're going to be able to keep together? Indiana at Lost Old Depot. I think there's a place there where you can make some headway in the next few years with Bradley Beale and John Wall is your best players. But you've got to totally overhaul the rest of that roster in terms of what type of guys culturally do we want on this team and in this locker room. And I don't think I see a lot of that when I watch the Wizards play. Look, if they were fully healthy, what you said, and I know we've talked about this a lot on the podcast

and on the radio show over the years since Scott-Brook-Scott here and even before that when he was in OKC, they are very undisciplined. There's very little structure. there's rarely a really complex, not even a simplistic, offensive plan. I mean, I've watched them in key spots, not even have something simple to get the ball in bounds, you know, against pressure late in games. And it's just with, I like Westbrook in OKC, Wall needed more structure. And he needs a coach that has more offensive discipline and structure.

In my mind's eye, I think you agree. And I don't think that's Scott Brooks, and I like Scott a lot, and I'm sure there are many things he does well. I know the players enjoy him, and he's got great relationships with players, and he's fair and all that stuff. But we saw it in OKC. There's no offensive plan, rarely, other than a couple of downscreens or a couple of, you know, flare screens to get a shooter open.

After that, it's basically spread the floor and see if, or Brad can do something. It drives me crazy to watch them over the years because I think they've underachieved on that end. Yeah, and I think, I think, Kevin, the final point on that, I think that's one of the ways that I think my mind for the game and the way that I see the game offensively and the way that I, the only way that I believe to play into coach, I think that actually, when you're trying to put together a roster put together a franchise and turn this thing around, I think that's really helpful to be able to see the game in that way because I completely agree with you. And I've said that about many teams in this league.

A lot of them. Yep. I've sat there, watched games, and I'm saying, what exactly is the guys sitting there getting paid to do? Because I just wasted two and a half hours of my time watching a game the same way that that guy is watching the game. because there's no stamp, there's no impact, there's no thing you look at and say that's an identifying characteristic of an offense that some time and thought went into, that there's a plan, there's weak side action, that there is ball reversal, player reversal, that there is, you know, something with an idea of we're going to get something on the back end, we're going to start

on this side, but the action we're looking for is over there, putting guys in position to succeed and catching the ball where they can be effective. I see so many nights, so many games I'm watching, and I feel like I don't understand what the head coach has actually done to impact the product, particularly offensively. Defensively as well, because there's a lot of game planning goes into that, and I think that's more preparation for who you're about to play, because every team is going to run three, four things,

and then you've got to get back in transition. I mean, that's what you have to defend in the NBA, and you've got to have the personnel to do it. but offensively, the impact that you could have just by demanding some sort of structure, it's amazing the way you can clean up the sloppiness, the turnovers, the bad shots. It's amazing how much you can clean up X number of possessions a game with just an identity offensively by mandating some structure. And I don't know if it's because coaches are afraid of players and they're afraid of demanding anything

because this becomes such a player-friendly league that they're afraid of alienating guys. I don't know if that's the main reason, but I see a lot of it. And it bothers me at my core because I view the game so differently in terms of what you need to succeed. And I don't care what level you're coaching at. Those guys need structure. They need a plan. They need to understand the importance of the details in what you're doing on a particular

set and what it could lead to. And by the way, if you can get them to buy in, they're going to see success, and then your job is over in terms of selling it. They're going to want it. But you've got to demand it early, and that means you might piss some people off, and you might – guys that haven't been coached, they might not take that too well. Well, too bad, because what you've been doing isn't good enough. Look at the track record.

Look at the results. There's a reason I'm here because they may change. changes because this isn't getting it done. And now you're going to have to trust me that this is the right way. And I think if you can just demand it, eventually they'll buy in because the success will follow. I think I told it might have been Gary Williams this a month or two ago. He was watching an NBA game.

He texted me. He said, there's no, no, no, hold on for a second. I said 75% of the possessions are guy with the ball. Do you want a ball screen or not? That's it. That's the offense. Do you need a ball screen? And if you don't, we'll just space the floor and let you work. But if you need a ball screen, we'll send our big out from the low post to set a ball screen and it'll roll to the hoop.

And that's basically, it's mind-boggling. It is a league in which, look, if you've got players, you can overcome scheme. You know, if you don't have the players, you can run all the scheme you want. And it's impossible to stay in front of, you know, three dozen players in this league. no matter what you're doing defensively, but it's always fascinating to me to watch some of these coaches in a late game situation where you actually need something because you're going to face a set defense, and they're going to be basically pinning their ears back for one or two of your players, and you've got nothing, including even struggling to get the ball in bounds.

I just, I've never. Well, I think, you know, from a head coaching perspective, I think your number one job is, you've got to make sure you are implementing something that makes it easier for your players. Make it easier on them. And that's the part that frustrates me with a lot of coaching in the NBA. And even I look at it again as an example of Golden State, one of the things that makes that work, obviously they've got great shot makers and great talent. Look at the amount of running that Steph Curry and Clay Thompson are willing to do,

even when they know they might not get it. Because it's not like every single time Steph Curry runs up the right side of the floor, sprints through to the left, comes back down into the lane, runs a figure eight off screens on both sides, pops, sets a back screen, pops out, catches the ball. Like, it's not like every single time he does that motion, he gets the ball. He understands that's because it's going to lead to something good for somebody. Right? And so that mentality and that mindset is such an unselfish thing.

and look, I know those guys are great shot makers. There's no reason why you can't demand the same kind of determination and selflessness on any team with any player to make them understand. I think you nailed it, though. I think that there is, I think what you get is you get a lot of coaches who are not as important and don't have the same voice that the players have, and therefore they fear coaching, you know, those players. They fear pissing those players off. You know, I got to the point here recently when the Wizards were healthy. It's like, let's try to play some defense, turn somebody over,

take it off the rim, and run because if we're forced to run half-court offense in key moments, it's going to be painful. You know, and I'm talking about late, you know, in playoff games. But anyway, we, you've just basically. made the day for us. I don't have anything else. I have no time left to talk about anything else, nor do I want to. This was awesome. I love catching up with you. I hope we can do it before the playoffs started because we didn't even talk about the league right now and how, you know, potentially wide open the East is in particular. But maybe we can do that before the postseason.

No, I'd love to. And I'd love to come on with you before the postseason to kind of set the table for what we're going to see. And it's much more fun to talk about it once we know who's playing who. because right now it's just too much uncertainty there. It's just fascinating to me out west what different matchups we could get in particular. So I'd love to come on once you know the matchups, and then obviously periodically throughout the postseason as we watch this thing on Fold. I love to come on. I love doing it with you.

And if you end up getting that interview, given their current situation, get a long-term deal. All right. That's my advice. You got it. All right. Thanks, Tim, so much. Okay, Kevin.

Take care, ma'am. I know that was long with Legler. I enjoyed it. And, you know, if you didn't like the whole first part and talking about him and some of that stuff, it's a podcast. You don't have to sit there and listen to the whole thing. You can skip to the part about the Wizards. Real quick word on launch workplaces. Launch workplaces provides office solutions where you can get work done.

So if you are thinking about a new office space and you live in the Bethesda area in particular, this beautiful new space that Launch Workplaces has right in the Massachusetts. Avenue corridor. It's fully furnished, beautiful new offices with conference rooms, co-working desks, high-speed internet. They've got a cafe, they've got parking, it's free parking, and plenty of it, 24-7 access. If you're working from home or you're looking for a new office space or a co-working desk, a place to just come in one or two days a week to get some work done, consider launch workplaces. You can call them right now at 240-86714. That's 240-86714. That's 240-86714. and you can schedule an exclusive free two-day trial if you mention my name.

They've got locations all across town. You can find all of those at launchworkplaces.com. Last thing real quickly before we send it off. First of all, what a performance by Russell Westbrook last night. Just the second player in NBA history, Wilts Chamberlain was the first to have a 2020-night. He went for 20 points, 20 rebounds, and 21 assists in Oklahoma City's win. over the Lakers.

When we get to the NBA playoffs, I don't want them to match up with Golden State. I think they could beat Denver in a best of seven if they can finish in that seven spot. Last thing, by the way, back to Ernie for a moment. Because Aaron said, you know, I should have just listed like the worst moves for Ernie. Here's the list, all right?

The list in no, this is not necessarily in order, but I'm going to give you the three worst things he did that significantly impacted the franchise. Number one was, you know, the Steph Curry draft, the opportunity to get a player like Steph Curry, to trade that pick, you know, the fifth pick in the draft from Mike Miller and Randy Foy was a major gaffe, a major gaffe by Ernie.

It's, I don't know why they thought they could win in that particular season. If you recall, Arenas was coming off an injury. Jameson was getting old. Karan Butler couldn't stay healthy. healthy. They had Stevenson and Blotch, both who were, you know, totally immature. I know Ernie liked Ricky Rubio in that draft. I mean, hell, that would have turned out to be much better than that trade. That never made any sense to me. I thought it was a horrible move. I think it was done in part

because they had hired Flip Saunders and they wanted to provide some veteran help because they thought they had a chance to make the postseason. That was a terrible. move. Picking, you know, a girl named Jan, Jan Vesley, was a terrible pick in that particular draft, not just because of Kauai Leonard necessarily, but really in part because the NBA draft that year when they picked Vesley at number six, you know, you had guys like Kemble Walker that went after Jan Vesley. You had Clay Thompson in that draft. Hell, you had Markief Morris in that draft. He would have been better to draft than Jan Vesley, but you had Leonard that went 15 overall, and then got traded, by the way, to San Antonio. And then the Wizards had another pick in that

draft. It was Chris Singleton at 18 overall. And it's just, you know, guys like Reggie Jackson came afterwards, who's been a productive player in the NBA for a long time. Ernie didn't draft well. He didn't. But the decision to take Jan Vesley at six overall in the 2000 2011 draft was deadly to the franchise. They had a chance to pick a true transformative player and Kauai Leonard that would have led to much better results. And then lastly, because I don't put the resigning of Gill on him, it was on his watch. But the extension given to Andre Blatch was one of the worst moves ever on his watch. For whatever reason, Ernie was intoxicated.

by Blatch's talent, which is why he took a second round flyer on him to begin with as a high schooler. Remember that. He wasn't wrong about Blatch's talent, but God was he wrong about Blatch being like a cornerstone to a winning team. Blatch was a loser, a total loser, and the decision to keep him was a crushing call on Ernie's part. Terrible call. That's where I think more than anything else he whiffed. and that was sizing up a guy's competitive character and makeup. Blatch was a first-rate loser,

and somehow he thought he was a cornerstone on a winning team. Dead wrong. Those are the three. And there are others. There are others. But we'll end it with that. We'll have fun conversation tomorrow with Tommy. Have a great day.