The Kevin Sheehan Show - Ernie Grunfeld's Story

Episode Date: June 30, 2021

Kevin opened the show with Kyle Schwarber and the Nats. He talked Washington Football's PFF/ESPN roster ranking and last night's NBA game too. Then, at 22:00 a conversation with Dan Grunfeld (Ernie's son) about his new book titled, By the Grace of the Game: The Holocaust, A Basketball Legacy, and an Unprecedented American Dream.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Sheehan Show. Here's Kevin. Oh, my, I can't believe it. See you later. I can't believe it either, Bob.

There are no more give-me-over fastballs to start baseball games when college voters are in an adult spot. Another elevated fastball. Belt high. Goodbye. This is getting a bit ridiculous with Kyle Schwerber. I mean, he is having a run that is up there with the all-time home run stretches in baseball history. The Nats got another win as well.

Four to three winners last night over Tampa Bay at Nats Park. They played this afternoon. They are three games back of the Mets and the National League East. For the first time since early in the season, they are. a game over 500. In fact, I think the last time they were a game over 500 was after the opener when they were 1 and 0. A couple of things about Kyle Schwerber's stretch here. First of all, last night was interesting because Rich Hill, who the Nats certainly know from Dodgers days, Rich Hill was on the mound for Tampa. Rich Hill is a left hander. He was facing Kyle Schwerber

batting as a lefty last night to lead off the bottom of the first in their game against Tampa. chill coming in to last night's game was dominant against left-hander's. Left-handers were hitting 143 against him in 56 at bats so far this year, and not one lefty he had faced had hit a home runoff of him. Last year in what was an abbreviated season, of course, he faced lefties 17 times and nobody hit a home run off him. In 2019, he was homered off of by lefties just once. He's been dominant against left-handers. You've got to think that upcoming in games ahead, people are not going to pitch to Kyle Schwer. They're going to pitch around him. But last night, Tampa thought, Rich Hill, the matchup, lefty versus lefty, we're going to be okay. They weren't.

His first pitch was a fastball that only reached a velocity of 83.5 miles per hour, and Schwerber knocked it over the right field wall into the third deck, 434 feet. First pitch, his 16th home run in the month of June, all of which have come from the lead-off spot. Let me remind you, if you didn't know this, he didn't start leading off until June 12th. Imagine if that had started at the beginning of the month, where would we be? 16 home runs and 18 games. That matches Sammy Sosa in 1998 and Barry Bonds in 2001 as the greatest 18 games stretches in Major League Baseball history hitting home runs.

Of course, Sosa and Bonds were steroid guys. Other notes from this Schwerber hot streak include 12 home runs over his past 10 years. games. That matches Albert Bell, who did that in 1995 for the most over a 10 game stretch. Five of his games have been multi-homer games, including three-in-one game. That ties the record for the most multi-home run games in a calendar month. Albert Bell in 95, and Harmon Killebrew, who was a Washington senator, at one point, also a Minnesota twin. He did it in May of 1959. He's got seven first-inning home runs this month. That ties Alfonso Soriano, September 2007, and Carl Yostremski, Yaz, in June of 1969, one of three players to have

seven first-inning home runs in a month. His 16 home runs in June are the second most ever for the month of June, trailing only Sammy Sosa's 20 back in 1998. But listen, most ever for the month of June, listen to the other players in terms of a month record, like one month, any month during the regular season. Sammy Sosa hit his 20 in June of 98. Schwabers got the second most ever in the month of June at 16 right now. He's got one more day. They've got an afternoon game this afternoon. But for one month, for a calendar month, here are the record number of home runs. Listen to this list. Sammy Sosa's 20 in 1998. Giancarlo Stanton's 18 in August of 2017. Sosa in 2001 hit 17. Bonds hit 17 in the month of May in 2001. Willie Mays hit 17 in August of 1965. Mark McGuire twice,

July 99, May of 98 hit 16 in a month, and Ralph Kiner in September of 1949 hit 16. Sosa, Stanton, Bonds, Mays, McGuire, Kiner, and Kyle Schwerber. 16 in the month of June, 2021. That's the company he is keeping right now. Schwerber is crushing pitches. I can't imagine they're going to pitch to him for much longer. In that lead-off spot, you typically suffer from not having men on base, but you're protected by what's coming up. So to walk him too much means that you're putting a man on base for Trey Turner and then for Juan Soto. Juan Soto last night in the bottom of the first after Trey Turner doubled following Schwerber's

home run, Soto homered. And Soto homered last night for the first time since June the 9th. So Soto had not had a home run in a game since. June the 9th against, ironically, Tampa Bay, in a game in which they gave up a lead, then took the lead back in one nine to seven and 11 innings. It was on that June 10th morning following that game that Barry's Verluga came on the radio show and said,

you know, we all try to do this every once in a while in the moment say this was the key moment of the season. This is the moment that's going to turn everything around. but he said it on that morning of June 10th, not knowing anything about Kyle Schwerber in the influence he would have. But he said that the Nats holding on to win that game in 11 innings at Tampa, 9 to 7 after blowing a two-run lead in the 10th, in the bottom of the 10th, he really felt like that could be a turnaround moment for the team.

They did lose two out of the next three, but since have won 13. of 16 and are very much in the hunt. By the way, last night, another really good outing from Joe Ross. He's had some outstanding outings. He's had a couple of rough outings, too, but six in a third, six hits, two earned runs, struck out seven. The Nats held on. Hand gave up a lead-off home run in the ninth and then got three straight batters and I think a total of five pitches. Today, it's Lester. Nats. I think it's Waka for Tampa. I believe it's Waka. It could be Rasmussen. But a big one, an afternoon game before the Nats take off for L.A. and a match up this weekend for games against the Dodgers. But wow, Kyle Schwerber is doing something that for an individual, it's one of

the best runs by any individual athlete, team sport athlete. really that we've ever seen in this town. All right, I have a special guest on the show today, and I've already recorded this interview, and we are going to get to it in a few minutes. But the interview will be with Dan Grunfeld, Ernie Grunfeld's son. He's written a book.

I'm saying this now because I had no idea truly what to expect from this interview. I didn't know a lot about the book going in. in and I definitely did not know enough about Ernie Grunfeld's life and how he grew up. But Dan Grunfeld was outstanding. So we are going to take a quick break. I'm going to come back to a couple of other sports items and then we will get to that interview. Right after this word from a few of our sponsors. I did want to mention briefly the NBA game last night.

I can't believe how soft and disinterested Milwaukee came out in that game against Atlanta without Trey Young. I thought it was a poor job by their coach Boodenholzer. There have been head-scratching moments all of the postseason watching Milwaukee, but they do have really good players and they've got one exceptional player in Janice, Tentacompo, and he got hurt in the third quarter. They were starting to make a run back into the game. Personally, I thought the way they played the first half, which was uninspired on every level. I don't know that they would have won the game with Janus, but with no Trey Young, they should have won the game last night. They should have been up by 20 at halftime. They should have tried to bury Atlanta right now to take a 3-1 lead, a team that

hasn't been to the NBA finals and is sniffing it and gets to play a team in an Eastern conference finals, game four, up two games to one, and that team doesn't have its best player. and they came out and they were dreadful in the first half down 13. Janice got hurt. They were starting to play a little bit better. I don't think they would have won had he stayed in. I hope he's healthy. I hope Trey Young's healthy. I hope Clint Capella's healthy. This postseason, they've lost too many really good players that have impacted games.

But Atlanta, give them credit, man, to win without Trey Young seemed impossible. I also wanted to mention that ESPN just put out a list 1 through 32 of the best rosters in the NFL heading into this season right now based on what the rosters look like. And this is an analysis using the pro football focus database and grades. So as I always say with PFF, take it for whatever you think it's worth. But I was curious, as I always am, on these lists and these rankings to see where Washington is. So Tampa's got the number one rated roster heading into 2021, Kansas City's two. Cleveland is three. Cleveland getting a ton of preseason love.

Like they've got a legitimate chance to make a run to the AFC title game. you know, they played the Chiefs pretty tough in that playoff game, that's for sure, at Arrowhead after destroying the Steelers. I don't think the Browns have a better roster than the fourth best team in the league that they've got here, which is Buffalo. I think Buffalo's roster and coaching staff, the whole thing, like it will not surprise me at all if it's a Buffalo, Kansas City rematch in the AFC title game. Baltimore's fifth, Green Bay is six.

obviously this is presuming Aaron Rogers is the starting quarterback. The Rams have the seventh best roster. The Cowboys have the eighth best roster. You know what? I can see the Cowboys having a top third of the league kind of roster, definitely. This is more than top third. Okay, this is top quarter. but the Cowboys fully healthy, they got an awful lot offensively.

They have a solid to really good offensive line, and they've got playmakers, they've got a back, and they've got a quarterback. Defensively, just the fact that they'll have a new coach in Dan Quinn goes with a team that I thought was more talented than their results than the produced results last year. Dallas, the eighth best roster. Minnesota's is ninth. Minnesota made a lot of changes and a lot of additions to their defense in particular and their offensive line. The two weaknesses on their team, they've got the ninth best roster according to this analysis on ESPN.com. Denver is 10. Interesting. I wouldn't have thought

you know, that Denver's, you know, in the top 10. Offensively, they've got weapons, Melvin Gordon in the backfield. They got rid of Philip Lindsay, but, you know, Cortland Sutton coming back, Jerry Judy, Noah Fant, and they've got, you know, Hamilton, and they've got a lot of receivers, man, they've got a lot of receivers on that team. They've got the other Penn State kid whose name is escaping me right now, who they drafted last year, number one from Penn. State. Hamler, KJ. Hamler. They've got him on the roster too. And they've got defensive talent. The more you think about Denver, it's like it all comes down to quarterback because you know, when you've got Miller and Chubb on that team, remember they added Darby and they

franchised and then I think actually extended and signed Justin Simmons. Good roster. San Francisco is 11 and then Washington is 12. Washington, 12th best roster in the NFL. Where did I think it was going to come in? Closer to the middle. And 12's getting close to the middle, but it's not in the middle. I would have thought 15, 16, 17, something like that. They're ahead of Tennessee.

They're ahead of Indy. They're ahead of Seattle. They're ahead of Pittsburgh and New Orleans. I mean, to be honest with you, I love New Orleans's roster. And I'm also a believer in James Winston. They're way ahead of the Giants who came in 19 on this list, and Philadelphia on this list is way, way back there at 29. I don't think Philadelphia's roster is 29th best in the league.

I think a lot with them is going to depend on the quarterback. I think their offensive skill position players, for sure, will Devante Smith be an immediate impact player? Will Jalen Rager in year two be something? but they still have defensive talent, and they added Anthony Harris to that secondary. But Washington, 12th best roster in the NFL. Pretty aggressive. I'll read to you what they wrote. Spending premium draft picks on the same position group year after year should lead to success.

Doesn't always work out that way, but it certainly has for Washington's D-line. Chase Young and Montez Sweat both graded out as top 12 edgy. defenders in the NFL last season. Jonathan Allen was one of the league's best interior pass rushers per pro football focus in 2020. Duron Payne remains a steady presence against the run inside. Those four plus rotational pieces such as Matt Ionitis and Tim Settle have developed arguably the league's best defensive line. It's funny about Ionitis. There are some, I will tell you. There are some that would out there that would say he's our best defensive linemen when healthy. biggest weakness. The decision to release Morgan Moses opens a potential weak spot on what appeared to be a solid offensive line.

Cornelius Lucas and second round pick Sam Cosmi are among the top options to fill that vacancy at right tackle. Yeah, Charles Leno is the left tackle. Just everybody understand that. And I think Cosmi's got a really good chance to be the starting right tackle. The biggest weakness offensive line, I actually think there are bigger questions in the secondary. X Factor, of course, they write is Ryan Fitzpatrick, and then they get into, you know, the fact that he's had a couple of really good years here in his last two. 12th best roster. You know, defensively, fifth best defensive roster, top five, I didn't mean fifth best. I'd say top five defensive roster. As a total roster, 12th, I would have probably had it a few notches lower, but not a lot lower. It's sort of hard to think that Seattle, you know, that their roster is worse than Washington's in the eyes of pro football focus.

Same with Tennessee, a team that a lot of people think has a chance to get to the AFC championship game again. I like Indy a lot. I like their roster. I like their coaching staff. Obviously, Carson Wentz and Frank Reich together are going to be interesting. If they can sort of, you know, create the magic they did in Philadelphia, I think Indy's going to be really good this year. Okay. If you're wondering about the, you know, co-CEO Tanya Snyder story, we pretty much did that on the show yesterday. I will just tell you that I spent more time sort of reading through that journal article. And Tommy nailed it. It's a puff piece, man. It's a puff piece or a very poorly researched piece or, you know, puff piece slash ground rules. And the bottom line is Snyder trying to convince people that he wasn't as involved, and that's the reason for the organization's culture is ridiculous.

Him going a step further to say that now that the limited partners are gone, that's a big step forward, as if any of us ever thought that Fred Smith was part of the problem, or that Bob Rothman or Dwight Schar were part of the problem. come on man i mean deal with reality you're you can't sell that one to anybody that's been paying attention apparently though the writer of the story either wasn't paying attention or was but couldn't follow up on some of that stuff all right uh i want to get to this interview and share this interview with you with dan grunfeld ernie grunfeld son i enjoyed it i think you will too that's next after this word from one of our sponsors my guest

today on the podcast is Dan Grunfeld. Dan is Ernie Grunfeld's son, and he's written a book titled by the grace of the game, The Holocaust, a basketball legacy, and an unprecedented American dream. You can get it anywhere you get a book, or you can pre-order it wherever you get a book, Amazon, et cetera. And I, somebody made me aware of this book that you've written. And let me just start off by saying, you know, I know it wasn't a great ending for your dad here in D.C., but those of us in the media that got to know your dad really liked your dad. It was hard not to like your father. He was always so accessible and always such a great guy.

And there were moments here, you know, in his tenure with the Wizards as general manager. But how's he doing? Like, I hope he's well. What's he up to these days? Can you tell us? Yeah, Kevin, thank you. No, he's doing great. Still lives in the D.C. area.

My sister and her daughter, so my niece live in the area, so he's enjoying being a grandpa. You know, just great memories in D.C. You know, he said things didn't end well. That's kind of the nature of the NBA. You know, when things end, they rarely do end well, but he's in that business for four decades and, you know, some great thrills in D.C.,

you know, with some of those great teams he built. So, yeah, he's very fond of the area for sure and still there and still doing well. Does he miss it? Does he miss being a part of a team? Absolutely. I mean, that's kind of his DNA, you know, just being around basketball his whole life. And he just loves the game.

I mean, he really, really loves and enjoys the game of basketball. So, you know, there is, you know, a part of him that does miss it. But I think he also enjoys having a little bit of free time and space because, you know, there's a lot of pressure in that job. And, you know, he did it for so long. And so I think it's nice as well to kind of have a little bit of time. Yeah, I think, you know, even those of us that are, you know, Washingtonians and big Wizards fans, in my case, bullets and then Wizards fans,

my whole life I've been, you know, I remember your father's career as a professional, and I certainly remember the famous Sports Illustrated cover with Bernard King and Ernie Grunfeld, the Ernie and Bernie show from, you know, back in the 70s. And I want to talk about some of this stuff, and I'm assuming some of this. stuff is in your book as well. But I'm not sure that all of the fans know how good of a player your father was. He was a really good college basketball player, an excellent college basketball player. He was a first round draft choice. He went 11th overall in the 1977 draft and, you know, had a professional career that lasted, I don't know, eight, nine, ten years and was part of Bernard

King's some of his famous playoff games as a Nick back in the early to mid-80s. So we'll get into some of this. But tell me real quickly, by the way, for those that don't know, Dan Ernie's son, who wrote this book, was also quite a basketball player himself. Dan was a college basketball player at Stanford and then had an international career as well. So tell us why the book, you know, what inspired you? to write this book. Yeah, well, writing is a love of mine.

So when I was playing professional basketball, I had several contributing writing positions to website. So I just love to write, but, you know, more importantly, this story, you know, means the world to me. People know about my dad as an executive as an athlete, but very few people know that he's the only player in NBA history whose parents survived the Holocaust. And so, you know, you've talked to my dad a lot of times. The D.C. community has heard my dad speak.

he sounds like he's from New York City, but my dad's from Romania. You know, and Hungarian is his first language. And so he has a history and a past that people really don't know about that certainly hasn't impacted me a lot. And I'm very proud of kind of what he's overcome and what my family has overcome. And really basketball has been the vessel to give my family a whole new life here in America. And so, you know, just really meant the world to me to be able to tell that story. So I want to hear this story.

I'm really interested. Your father grew up in Romania, but Hungarian, you said, was the language. Were his parents Romanian or were they Hungarian? They are from Romania on the border with Hungary, so Transylvania. So my dad is from the heart of Transylvania. And so while, you know, and actually it kind of went back and forth during World War II. So it was Hungary during the war and then went back to Romania. But, yeah, my dad grew up under communism.

You know, both my grandparents survived the Holocaust. My grandmother has a particularly big story. She was saved twice by Raul Wollenberg, who's the greatest hero of the Holocaust. And so my dad grew up kind of with that background and came to America at the age of nine, having never touched a basketball, not speaking a word of English. And about 10 years later, he was standing on the podium as a gold medalist of the United States. And it really is the American dream and kind of just a testament to what a game can do for people. but, you know, basketball's presence in my life and in my family's life,

it's so much bigger than really people could imagine. You know, because, you know, the game has done things for my family that, you know, it's just a really remarkable. So I'm interested in a couple of things going backwards. Back to Ernie's parents, your grandmother and grandfather. They were Holocaust survivors. Correct me if I'm wrong. I mean, I love this period of time.

I love reading about this period of time. obviously the major Axis powers were Germany, Japan, and Italy. But am I wrong? What in Romania and Hungary, both part of the Axis group? They were not part of the Allies in World War II. That's right. Hungary, particularly sympathetic to the Nazis. That's where my grandmother was in Budapest.

So she was really all in the run on the streets of Budapest. And so, yeah, Hungary was sympathetic to the Nazis. And so, you know, they were both kind of detained in different ways. They, you know, what they survived. And, you know, my grandfather lost everyone, those parents, all his siblings, you have two sisters, both killed. My grandmother was one of ten children, five of them were killed. Both of her parents were killed in Auschwitz.

You know, so this is obviously a very heavy history, and this is kind of, you know, where my dad's background, and it's not something he talked about a lot. you know, he's very close to that trauma. For me, I have a generation of separation. And my grandmother lives here in the Bay Area next 25 minutes away from me. We talk every day and are extraordinarily close. Wow.

How old is your grandmother? Just turned 96 two weeks ago. Wow. And I'll tell you, she really is the central point of the book. She came to every single basketball game I played at Stanford. She's my hero. She's a hero. And this is detailed in the book.

You know, she risked her life to save others during the war. She obtained false documentation. for others. She really, you know, my grandmother, her impact on my life. I mean, it's hard to put into words, although I did try in the book. But, again, like where my dad comes from and that background, again, like, it's something people don't know about, but it's so profound. And again, the game of basketball is so tightly kind of interwoven with the story that

I really took it upon myself to tell that story and to really talk about the game and how, and, you know, kind of what it's done for us and kind of that history. It's fascinating. I mean, I know this story and I remember the story of the Holocaust reaching Hungary. I don't know if it was the same with Romania, but it became, it came very late in the war, if I remember this correctly. I could be thinking of places like Bulgaria and others, but in that general area, pretty much when the war was pretty much already decided, the Allies had already landed Normandy. They had already made their way into Germany.

And as a last ditch effort to try to exterminate as many Jews as possible, I think those countries were the last hit by the Holocaust in terms of the German. Now, I mentioned and you confirmed that Romanian, Hungary were part of the Axis powers, but that didn't make it safe for Jews, obviously. But am I right about, I don't know about Romania, but I know that there's this story about Eichmann and others, you know, going into Hungary very late in the war. And that was almost the last salvo against the Jews by the Nazis. So, Kevin, kudos to you for your historical accuracy here. You're 100% right.

And actually, my grandmother was one of the Jews that Eichmann tried to exterminate. So he issued the extermination of the Budapest ghetto at the end of the war. So she was in Hungary? She was in Hungary. She was detained in the Budapest ghetto. And this is written about in death in the book. She saw Nazis with machine guns, and they had an order from Adolf Eichmann, who's the architect of the Holocaust to exterminate the 80,000 remaining Jews.

And that's when Raul Wallenberg saved her for the last time. And the ghetto was liberated and the war was over. So you're right. It was towards the end of the war that things really escalated in Hungary. So how was she able to survive that? I mean, do you get into detail on that in the book? And if not, do you know, I'm curious. I know my grandma is so sharp, though, and over the years,

her story has been detailed for the Holocaust Museum and others. So I know all the details. And I do share it. I mean, I go very, very in depth in the book about what happened during the war, not only to my grandmother who survived, but to her family members who didn't. You know, she had three siblings and two parents killed in Auschwitz. She had a sibling killed in the Ukraine. She had a sibling killed on Eichmann's death march, you know, in Hungary.

So I kind of detail these different, you know, tragic things that happened during the war. You know, my grandmother, you know, she did anything she could to survive. You know, she had to scrape together food and you have to be very diligent and safe and careful. But ultimately, you know, there was a lot of luck involved as well, and she'll be the first to admit that. You know, she did every single thing she could to stay safe. But, you know, ultimately in that day and age, there's only so much you could do. end, again, they were set to kind of kill everyone who was detained in the ghetto. And as Raul Wollemberg, who was the hero of the holocaust, he prevented it from happening at the last

minute. And so that kind of, you know, facilitated her survival, which is obviously the greatest blessing. So she was in, you know, just quick mass. She was in her late teens somewhere around there. That's right. That's right. She was 18 years old. What about your grandfather? My grandfather is also from Transylvania, so Romania-Hungary border. He had it easier, not saying that he had it easy during the war, but he was in a labor camp in Hungary. My grandfather was a semi-professional soccer player.

He was a world-ranked ping-pong player, very big kind of strapping athletic guy. So he, you know, for labor, you know, he was useful. So he was in a labor camp. He was actually a cook in the camp, which my grandma still laughed at today because he had never, had never and could not cook anything but uh you know he was a cook so he just kind of dumped food into pot but that gave him a little extra kind of nourishment and you know he he kind of just survived in the labor camp so he had it a little bit easier is he alive he passed away in 1986 so when i was a baby my grandpa had so did did they they didn't know each other before the war

um i'm assuming they didn't is that true That's true. Actually, and again, this is all detailed in the book. Sure. They met the day after my grandmother got back because she had no clothes. She had nothing to wear. So when she finally got home, her brother had survived if he was also home. And he was in the labor camp with my grandfather, and they were friends. And they had been liberated about six months prior,

and my grandfather had opened up a little store that sold clothing. So my grandmother's brother bought my grandma to my grandfather's store to get some new clothes, and they met there and then the rest of the history. So your grandfather was a big guy. You know, a lot of fans, a lot of our fans who have never seen your father up close. They don't understand. Your father is a big dude.

Your father's every bit of 666, 6, 6, 7, and was when he was playing. And it sounds like, you know, his father was an athlete. Was your grandmother? Was Ernie's mother an athlete or not? My grandmother was athletic. but she wasn't, you know, and in that day and age, like with, you know, she was running around and playing and having fun, but what happened with the war,

and then, you know, there wasn't really opportunities to excel in athletic, but it was really my grandfather who was more serious about it. But, you know, but definitely my grandmother was athletic and enjoyed sports. And it's funny to have what you say about my dad's size. It's definitely something people don't understand, and still you kind of experience it, but he's, you know, not only he's called, but he's wide and he's big. and he's powerful.

And, yeah, he, I joke. And it's true, you know, I'm a big guy, too. I'm six foot six. My dad's hands are so big that my wedding ring can fit inside of his wedding ring. Oh, wow. That's how big he is. So, yeah, it's an experience. Well, and remembering your father as a player, and I'm old enough to remember your father as a

player, he was, like what you just said, it wasn't that he was tall. He was big and strong. He was a big boxy dude, you know, that was. his build. And by the way, you know, Bernard King had a similar build, more athletic, I think you would say than your father, but sort of a similar boxy build as well. Like he wasn't super thin either during those years. I want to get to that because, you know, your father is so linked with Bernard King in his basketball lifetime. But just going back, so your father, what year was he born? My dad was born in 1955. 55, and he was born in Romania. And so at the time,

this was Soviet Romania, correct? Yes, it was under communism. So what was his upbringing? Like, how long did he live there? Yeah, and I go into great detail about this in the book. It's so interesting. So he counts America who's nine years old. So at eight, they left. You know, my dad had a loving parent, He had an older brother who was his hero, which is another tragedy that he endured. My uncle passed away at a young age when I got to the United States, and that's also something I just set up like from the book. But my dad had a very warm, loving family life, and so he didn't have any toys. You know, it was, you know, state-sponsored work.

It was a hard life. But for him, life was beautiful because he had everything he needed. And I've learned a lot from that because, you know, I asked my dad for this book. I said, Dad, what was it like to grow up so poor? And he said, I wasn't poor because I had everything. I needed. You know, so the expectations kind of shift when he grew up in that environment. But listen, I mean, he grew up watching animals get slaughtered in the courtyard of his little

apartment compound. You know, he grew up using an outhouse to go to the bathroom. It was, you know, it was a different life and just a different day and age. And, of course, for me, as someone who, you know, when I was born, my dad, I was an NBA player, and he was the general manager of the Nick. So we grew up so differently, yet there's this game that kind of links us and links these histories together. So how were they able to emigrate to the United States?

It took 10 years. They were able to get Israeli passports through an organization that was helping Jews leave communist Romania. And so the state of Israel was helpful in allowing Jews to leave, you know, when their kind of lies and freedoms were at risk. And honestly, under, and I go into this in detail in the book, like, you know, it was dangerous under communist. You know, people were beaten, jailed, killed, you know, for speaking against the government. So there was just, you know, there's no life under communism for my family. And so they had been, again, my grandparents worked for a decade to try to get documentation. And it was ultimately, you know, Israel enabled the kind of them leaving.

And then they had to stop over in Rome. And at the last minute, actually, they came to the United States. They were bound for Israel initially. Wow. So they, so I'm just curious before. And by the way, this is now, like, like a must-read book for me anyway, and I hope people feel the same way. It's called By the Grace of the Game, the Holocaust, a basketball legacy, and an unprecedented

American dream written by Ernie Grunfeld's son, Dan, who had a really good college career at Stanford and also an international basketball career and is written for much of his life. I'm curious, when did your father start to play basketball? Was it in Romania? Was that option even available to him, or did it happen when he got to New York as an eight or nine-year-old? When he was growing up in Romania, he had heard of basketball, but he had never played it, and he had never touched the basketball. When he got to America, listen, he didn't speak English. My grandparents had to work all the time to try to, you know, make ends meet, and my uncle, may he rest in peace, was diagnosed with leukemia a few months after they arrived.

And he passed away less than a year later. And so my dad, you know, was an immigrant, not speaking the language, you know, parents were working all the time, had just lost his hero. He needed an outlet. And so he went to the park to make friends and learn the language. And he just started playing basketball. And, you know, I think everything happens for a reason. And the game really was having sent for my dad and for my family because that, that profound loss that he faced,

the game allowed him to heal from that. But, you know, on the streets of New York City and on the playgrounds, basketball is the language people speak. You know, so he, you know, you know, you know, years later, not only was he did he have friends at the park, he was the best player in the neighborhood, and he kind of ran the park, you know, so the game kind of just gave him that vehicle to go forward, but also to heal from some really difficult stuff. So Israel was the intention, but they end up in New York. So where in New York did he grow up? In Queens, Forest Hills, Queens. Oh, in Forest Hills. Wow.

Yep. And so he learned English as he was learning basketball. And so when does it become obvious to your grandparents, his parents, him, that he's pretty good at this thing? It's funny because I go to deep crazy detail in the book about this. Because my grandparents got their background, listen, they survived the Holocaust. They got to America. They wanted to build a good life. They had a fabric store in the Bronx.

they were loving support of amazing parents, but they worked, work, work, worked. And that's how my dad had so much success, not only as a player, but as an executive. It was all about work. And so my grandparents never saw my dad play basketball until he was a junior in high school. They never closed their store.

They never went to a game, and their coach called them at the store and said, you have to see this kid play. You know, for them, it was just a recreational activity. They knew he did it a lot. And again, this is a great story because of how it happened, but they got to the gym and they saw, and let's just say that after that,

you know, my grandpa never missed the game. My dad never had to come to the fabric store to work again. It kind of got the impression, like, okay, something's going on here. And listen, my dad just took off and, you know,

he was an amazing high school player, an amazing college player. He was a role player in the NBA, but he had a nice long nine-year career, but, you know, he's an Olympic gold medalist. Like, you know, he became a legend in basketball from,

from really, I mean, I don't even want to say humble beginnings, Kevin, because that doesn't kind of do it justice. Yeah, so your grandparents had a fabric store in the Bronx. Your father is a Romanian Jew in the U.S., he's learning how to play basketball, but I'm just imagining based on the culture that academics also were very important,

how dead set on, you know, being a great student before anything else, were your grandparents, and was your father a good student? They were very focused on education, particularly my grandmother. She'd love to read and learn, and the war took her education from her. You know, she was no longer able to go to school. So my grandma was a brilliant person,

but she's not formally educated. So super important for her, for my dad and my uncle before he passed, you know, to be well educated. And it's funny because they wanted my dad to go to a yeshiva when I got the United States, which is kind of a school with secular Jewish education. but they'll go to school on Sundays,

and my dad actually wasn't admitted because he didn't speak English. But he was happy about that because he didn't want to go to school on Sundays. But, you know, he, so he ended up going to public school. He went to PS 101 in Farsfield in Queens. But, yeah, education was really important.

And when he said, was he a good student? My dad's a very intelligent, smart guy, you know, he had a different path because he didn't speak the language. Right. So he had to learn how to speak English. So there are stories, again, I'm going to detail this in the book,

of kids, you know, sitting in the back of the class, with him teaching him how to speak and how to read while his other peers are kind of progressing with their studies. So I said the one thing my dad was really good at always and still it to say is math. You know, and it's funny because that's universal language, right? Numbers and numbers and numbers. And so he excelled at math.

And actually, you know, as a basketball player, as an executive, people, my dad is, is quiet and he doesn't kind of disclose everything, but he's a wizard with numbers. And that's, I see him do some computations very quickly in ways that have, been very helpful to him that others maybe couldn't see what he saw because of his ability to work with numbers. So he went to PS whatever in Queens, and then what high school did he go to? He went to Forest Hills High School. And so that's where your grandfather first saw him play as a junior, and you said your father was a really good high school basketball player. Obviously, he ended up being recruited by, you know, an SEC team in Tennessee. And by the way, for those that,

you know, don't know, Tennessee's got, you know, they've got some history. in basketball. I know that most people think SEC and think football, but Tennessee is one of those SEC schools not named Kentucky that actually has a pretty good basketball history as well. How good was he in high school? How highly recruited was he coming out of it? Yeah, he was an All-American. He was one of the most highly recruited players in the country. And you mentioned Kentucky, and again, this is discussed in the book, the Kentucky coaches used to knock on the door on Sunday mornings. They just said, hey, we were in the area, I thought we stopped by.

Really? There were coaches all over the neighborhood. They'd come to my grandparents' fabric store. They'd come to my dad's high school. And listen, he's now, I mean, by, as he's doing the senior in high school, now he's speaking English better, but he's still an immigrant from Romania, who just was, you know, a couple years removed from communism and even the Holocaust, right? But there was just this kind of flood of college coaches, the Forest Hills. And, yeah, he was high school, All-American, one of the most highly recruited players.

Boy, so that would have been, I'm trying to think, because Albert King, who played at my alma mater, the University of Maryland, was the number one high school player in America when Lefty Dressel recruited him out of Brooklyn. And I think, so your father would have, no, your father's younger. Obviously, your father's much younger. Because he would have ended up at Tennessee in like the mid-70s. Albert King got to college park in 77 or 78. Anyway. So Albert's younger, because Bernard is a year younger than my dad. Yes.

And so Bernard came to Knoxville the year after. And Albert was the number one high school player in the country, I believe, two years, right? Oh, yeah. No, no. Junior and senior. The lefty, I don't know how much you know about the history of Maryland basketball. Gary Williams obviously won a national championship. and Lefty really started the tradition here.

Lefty during the 70s, Dan, recruited in order, Tom McMillan, who was actually the number one player in America. Bill Walton was number two. He recruited Moses Malone, who may be the most highly recruited high school basketball player in the history of recruiting high school basketball players. Moses showed up on campus for one day and then took a million bucks from the Utah stars to go to the NBA,

never played. Then he recruited Albert King, who was the number one player in America. He recruited a guy by the name of Reggie Jackson, who was not a great college basketball player, but at Roman Catholic in Philadelphia, was the number one player. So he recruited four, five, did I just name five or four, four or five top-rated players in America during that decade, which was, you know, that was he could sell, he could recruit. Back to your father, though, for a moment. So why Tennessee?

Why go to the... At that time, you know, the best players in New York City were going down south. You know, the Big East wasn't the powerhouse that it would become. Right. And so they called it like the pipeline to the south. You know, and the FCC was the best conference. And he just, you know, he vibes with the staff there. You know, they were at his high school every day.

They were at the store every day. They really, really wanted him. And I think he saw it. he saw an opportunity to play right away, which he did, he was first team all SEC as a freshman. And it was just a good fit, you know, and listen, they got Bernard a year later from New York. You know, Bernard is from, you know,

with the Fort Hamilton High School in Brooklyn, my dad from Faris Hills in Queens. You know, their New York kids who went down south. And, you know, together, I mean, they were one of the best duos in college basketball history. You know, they're, I think it was my dad's junior year, Bernard's sophomore year. They both averaged more than 25 points in game.

So I'm not sure how often that's happened in college basketball, but, you know, two New York, city kids going down south. And, you know, they did it with a lot of flair. And, you know, they were, that's why they were called the Ernie and Bernie show. You know, they were really beloved in Knoxville and despised by the rest of the SEC. Yeah. And imagine, you know, with a shot clock and a three-pointer, what they would have averaged.

So I'm trying to think, and you might be able to help me with us, Tennessee never, I know they never made a final four. But did they make a deep tournament run during your father's years with Bernard King? Tennessee? You know, it was different then, because I don't think they were 64 teams. Yeah, 604, yeah. But they never made like a deep national championship run.

They were a top 10 nationally ranked program. Right. You know, so they had a lot of success, but they never, like, were knocking on the door of a national championship. But, you know, they were a phenomenon. My dad and Bernard together, but the team in general, I mean, they were fun to watch. They played this exciting up-tempo brand of basketball. And as you mentioned, you know, Bernard and Matt were on the cover of Sports Illustrated.

together. You know, ESPN made a documentary about them in 2013 called Bernie and Ernie that basically just told the story, right? Two kids from New York and, you know, Bernard grew up in poverty. My dad grew up, you know, under a cloud of tragedy and basketball, man. It just changed both their lives. And, you know, and interestingly, they played together for the Knicks. And my dad backed up Bernard.

And so Bernard lived up the street from us. So I would come home from school and Uncle B would be in our kitchen just hanging out with my dad. And, you know, to this day, my dad will, you know, I'll talk to my dad. I'll talk to Bernard yesterday. I talked to Bernard. Like whenever Bernard, you know, they still talk often and it's always a special thing. So those guys have this really deep relationship and bond.

It's super special as me. You know, I remember the 30 for 30. I've not seen it. And I'm going and I just made a note to myself. I have not watched that 30 for 30, but I really want to watch it now. I'm curious for, you know, a Jewish New Yorker and for Bernard King to be in the south, in the early to mid-70s playing college basketball, did that pose challenges for both of them?

It did for Bernard, and that's actually discussed in the 30-for-30. You know, he dealt with racism and things like that, and so I know it was hard for him, and there were issues that he faced. You know, my dad didn't really experience, or at least didn't internalize much anti-Semitism, and, you know, I think he was very focused on basketball, and, you know, he was a very beloved person on campus,

and so he was just having such a ball that maybe he could kind of overlook some of it or didn't notice it. So he didn't have, you know, so for him, I think it was, he didn't experience so much of that. But I know Bernard, you know, it was impossible for Bernard not to see like he was detained. I think that he tells a really harrowing story during the 30 for 30 of being racially profiled on campus. You know, these are things no one could ever forget. And so I know it was hard for him down south. And, yeah, I think that, you know, it was a different. you know, a different experience

for those guys, you know, not being in New York City being down there. And, yeah, again, so for Bernard, I think it was more challenging. Was Grunfeld a change name, or was that the actual family name? That's our family name. It's a German origin, so my grandfather, I think, generations prior to him were from Germany, and so

that's where that name comes from. So, your father and Bernie remain close now? Absolutely. Yeah, they talk often, and, you know, they Yeah, they just have this such a deep, meaningful bond, you know, and it's just really special, you know, because they met when they were, you know, 18, 19 years old. And again, both being from New York, my dad knew of Bernard and Bernard knew of my dad, you know, it's kind of high school.

And so, yeah, they still have a close relationship to this day. All right. I'm keeping you far much, far too long. No, it's fine. Okay, because I'm, this is an interesting thing, and we haven't gotten to your father's, like, NBA career. and then obviously his professional career as a general manager in the league. You know, my memory of your father as an NBA player is he was okay. He wasn't a superstar.

I don't think he was ever an all-star. Correct me if I'm wrong. But I do remember that, you know, Ernie and Bernie were back together on some of those Knicks teams in the early to mid-80s, including the Bernard King team that, where he had, you know, 50 or whatever in Detroit in a playoff game 5. Some of those memorable playoff games against the Pistons back in that era. So tell me a little bit about his professional career. He wasn't drafted by the Knicks.

He was the 11th round select. The 11th pick overall in the 1977 draft by the Bucks. That's right. So he was drafted at 11th. So he played two years in Milwaukee, three in Kansas City, and four in New York. and, you know, he had his best years in Kansas City. They made it in the Western Conference finals, and he kind of started a point guard during the playoffs.

But he was a role player. You know, he averaged double figures a few years, but he was really just a very solid role player, great teammate, really knew the game. You know, whereas he was a superstar in college, yeah, he was never an all-star anything like that, but had a successful and good NBA career. And yet, you know, when him and Bernard reunited in New York,

you know, Bernard led the league in scoring in 84, right? He averaged 32.9 points per game. my dad was his teammate during that time. You know, Bernard had so many iconic moments. He famously scored 50 on back-to-back night in Texas. And so another part of the book is kind of tracing my basketball career. And so how I kind of walked in hand in hand with my grandma, my dad, and kind of the differences, right, between how my journey and my dad's journey and my family's jersey.

So that's another part of the book. And, you know, I was born a week after Bernard had those back-to-back 50 games. You know, so really I was born at the peak of the... Bernard's dominance and kind of hit his place in the basketball kind of ecosystem as kind of top top dogs. That's kind of how I came into the world. You know, I'm just trying to think, I remember, so for those that are listening that don't know this, the Sacramento Kings were originally the Kansas City Kings.

And I can remember being in college, you know, or in high school, you know, late night, 1130 CBS like Kansas City playing the Lakers or Phoenix or whatever. And, you know, I want to say that on those teams, the guy that I'll never forget being a part of that team was Otis Birdsong. I think that that's who he was drafted by and played on those teams. Like, I don't know why I would remember that necessarily. But were you – Sorry to the Reds ago, but Otis was a great player.

He was my dad's teammate, but he was an all-star, I believe. And when I mentioned that my dad started at Point Cardo, it was during those era, but during that era, you know, Phil Ford, Otis Burr's. Phil Ford, exactly. Phil Ford was on those teams. Yeah. That's right. Phil Ford was an Olympic teammate of my dad, you know, and Dean Smith had coached that team.

Of course, Phil Ford was a star at North Carolina. But, you know, they had really good teams, and they made it to the Western Conference finals after they lost to Houston and Moses Malone. But, yeah, they had a terrific. run. But those are some really exciting teams. So your father was on the 76 Olympic team in Montreal with Dean Smith coaching it? Yep. So that was the Olympics in Montreal where Nadia Komenich became the star of the Olympics,

a Romanian gymnast. Did your father know her? It's very astute observation. Funny you mention it because a lot of, my book, there's a lot of serendipity in my family story. So my dad's always kind of coming across people who kind of have a link to his background and Nadia being one of them. So, you know, when in 76, you know, Nadia recorded the first, you know, perfect tens in Olympic history. And my dad's watching on a monitor.

And I asked him that very question, did you feel a connection with her at that moment? And, you know, he didn't at that time because they had escaped. They had fled communist Romania as refugees. You know, so, you know, he didn't really feel such a connection to that place. he was just, I think, just relieved, happy, proud, ecstatic to be an American, not only competing in the Olympics,

but just an American period, having freedom. You know, so he kind of had left that part of his past behind him, but I, during my basketball career, you know, I actually became a Romanian citizen

and played for their national team briefly because, you know, I played internationally and having a Romanian passport was helpful in different leagues, but it just kind of shows that I grew up in, you know, in the suburbs of New York City,

and my dad was a gym of the Knicks. I played for Romania. My dad grew up in Romania. He plays in the United States of America. So everyone's path is different. And that's kind of the nature of the book to kind of show these these kind of varying journeys that we all kind of travel on. What was it like playing there? And by the way, getting citizenship there and then playing there. When were you there? I played there briefly. So there was just an international tournament that I played for them briefly. But, you know, I got my citizenship, I think, in 2008. And it was a very long,

larger process, but I was able to get it. It did help me in play in different leagues overseas because I counted as a European. But, you know, being in Romania, you know, it's interesting I never been there before. But, you know, another kind of thing that's related to that is my first professional career, I played in Germany. You know, and so that was a whole, a whole different thing for my family. And I write this in the book. I'm probably the only professional basketball player who called his grandma when he got a contract offer and asked it who was, okay, if he accepted it. Because I called my grandma,

I call my grandma on you, which means that's what everyone calls it, which is mother in Hungarian. And I said, On you, I have an offer, you know, and she's congratulating me.

I said, but it's in Germany. You know, and the first thing she said, she said, you know, this is an opportunity for you, you know,

and I write this in the book. She said, you know, sons are not responsible for the sins of their fathers. She said, go, experience life,

experience the world. And so, but there was also like kind of a, a reconciliation for me, being in Germany and, you know, confronting some of that history. there as well. That's that's a really such an incredible response from your grandmother.

And really it's such a lesson that can even be applied to a lot of the conversations we're having today. I back to the 76 Olympic team just for a moment because that team was coached by Dean Smith and on that staff was John Thompson, the late John Thompson. Absolutely. Who you know worked at our radio station for years and we all got a chance to know coach really well over the years. But that started, the relationship between Dean Smith and John Thompson was super special. I mean, you know, Dean Smith was ahead of his time as a progressive and, you know, integrating the University of North Carolina sports programs with Charlie Scott. But on that, on that team were guy, I mean, I remember that. That's like the first

Olympics I can remember. And that's why I remembered Nadia Komenich. And then there was the Olympics before, which was the Russian gymnast. Olga Corbett. Thank you. It was back to back sort of communist gymnasts who were dominating the dominating stories in the West, ironically. But anyway, on that 76 Montreal team,

all of the North Carolina players were on it. You know, Phil Ford, Walter Davis, Mitch Cupchack. I think Tommy Lagarde was on that team. It was. Yeah, Dean put all of his players, and there were a ton of ACC players. Steve Shepard, who at the time in 76, was the best player on Maryland's team, was on that Olympic team. And then I think Adrian Dantley was on that Olympic team, too, not an ACC player, but a

D.C guy who, you know, had played at Notre Dame. I mean, what an Olympic team that was. And then obviously, it didn't, you know, it didn't go well sort of after that Olympic was. until we got the professionals involved. I didn't realize that your father was a part of that Olympic team. That's interesting. So, you know, the pro career and then obviously the career as an executive in the NBA. Your father was always a wheeler and dealer, right?

I mean, I don't, that's, I mean, I know, I really know Ernie from his days in Washington, but I certainly remember, you know, him in Milwaukee in particular, where he had great success as a GM there. How do you view your father as a general manager over the course of, you know, all the teams that he general managed, New York, Washington, Milwaukee? Yeah. Listen, I'm so proud of my dad, you know, for the executive he is, but that's also the person he is. I mean, he, as you said, you know, you have such respect for him.

him and he's treated you so kindly. I can't tell you how many people have told me how nice my dad was to them. It really was. And the respect he showed them. And as a son, nothing can make you proud of that. I'm also just tremendously proud of the success he's had. And, you know, he was a general manager of the NBA for nearly 30 years. To have that amount of longevity speaks for itself, of course, you know, when you sit in that seat, you know, there's always going to be decisions he made that could have gone better or criticism from France and this and that. But, you know, if you really kind of step back and have perspective. I mean, he, you know, he took two Knicks teams to the finals.

You know, his Milwaukee Bucks team went to game seven of the Eastern Conference finals. You know, he built two teams in Washington that I think, you know, I have so many amazing memories of, you know, Gilbert and Antoine and Corrin and then Bradley and John and Otto Porter and Paul Pierce, you know, there were so many thrills with the teams he built. And so, you know, I'm just so proud of him for the person he is, but also for the success he had. I mean, listen, he became a legend in basketball as a player and executive and someone whose name people know from the background he came from. It's a one in a million shot that that would happen. And so I just can't tell you the pride I have and the success he's had and the person he is. How hard was it for you, for the family, for him, when it wasn't going well.

And he was, you know, the center and the target of a lot of criticism from fans. media people. Yeah, I mean, you know, my dad is big shoulders, you know, literally and figuratively, and my dad's all about work. He puts his head down and he worked, and I learned that from him. You know, that being back, Kevin, it's not pleasant. And I, and not only in D.C., I learned that as a kid in New York. You know, there's no market more, you know, more kind of vicious than the New York City

media market. And I grew up, you know, reading about reading in the paper and hearing criticism on talk radio, you just, it's kind of par for the course. And when you run a sports team, it's a very emotional, you know, people are really invested in it as they should be as part of their community. But, you know, it's a pretty, it can be a brutal kind of occupation and you have to be prepared for it. But for a family, it's not pleasant, but it brings you close together and it really kind of teaches you perspective. Because at the end of the day, you're playing a game, you're doing the best you can, you're making the best decisions that you can. But you have to always keep it in perspective because life is much bigger than that.

And truthfully, this story I tell shows that. And my family and myself, I've always looked at basketball through a lens that's much bigger than the Washington Wizards of the Milwaukee Buffs and New York Knicks. And we've been talking about this today, right? My grandparents survived the Holocaust. My dad fled communism. His brother passed away. And basketball literally gave him a new life. So for me and for my family, the game is so meaningful that, you know, you just try to keep that perspective.

But, you know, it's never pleasant when your kind of, you know, the brunt of criticism. But, again, my dad's got really big shoulders, and I'm just so proud of how he's handled himself. In addition to the success he had, I mean, listen, in the D.C. market, I mean, they made deep playoff runs with both of those teams, and I was in D.C. when, you know, the arena was hopping, and I would do with my family, and people would come up to my dad and shake his hand and thank him. And then a year later, it's not going so well for the different reaction. It's just far for the course. Did you ever say to him, though, Dad, Jan Vesley, really? Never, and I'll say, you know, it's funny because I have contact. I was playing in Europe, you know, when Yon Vesel was in Europe, and I saw him in the final four, you know, my college teammate Josh Childress,

who was one of the top players in Europe at the time. You should have seen how the battle that him and Yon Vesley had when Vesel was 18. And actually, 10th, like, I know of championship contenders who tried to trade up into the top five to draft you on Vesley that year. So it just, you know, so it's, you know, of course, in hindsight, it didn't work out, right? But my dad is, you know, he's data-driven. So he took all the information, made the best decision at the time, which he does with everything, and some work, some don't.

So, you know, as long as the process is good, and I'll tell you, man, I saw this guy in Europe, I thought he was going to, I myself also thought he was going to be the next Andre Carlinco or better, but it didn't work out. But listen, you can't, it's hard to second guess when the process is there. You know what I mean? Of course. What else do you want us to know about your dad? I actually really am looking forward to reading this book now because it's such an interesting family story and a lot of it I had no idea of. Yeah, I think it'll be eye-opening. You know, knowing my dad is kind of an executive as a player, you'll learn a lot about him. And also it's a family story, Kevin. I mean, you know, also a story of self-discovery for me. You know, and so it just really kind of touches on kind of the vast. human experience, you know, there's, there's pain, there's triumph, there are tears, there's

laughter and love, and it's really a family story, you know, and so involving sports and involving history. And so I'm just, I'm proud to share it. I'm definitely proud of my grandma, my dad, you know, they fought and survived so I could have, you know, a better life. And so I don't take that lightly at all. And yeah, I'm just, I'm just, you know, grateful to share the story as folks. So, you know, But as you said, like the book is available for pre-order now by the great of the game. I'm honored for folks spend a little time with me and my family reading the book and just, you know, it's getting excited to share the story. I want to ask you one more thing about your dad as the GM here.

Does he ever, and has he ever shared with you, any of the moves, any of the decisions that he made that he regrets? It's not really regret again because it's all about process. You know, it's about you can reflect and say what we're, out and what did it. And sure, oh, I wish I, like, oh, that didn't work. Like, I wish I wouldn't have done that because, like, it ended up not working out. But my dad never made a decision without, you know, doing the due diligence, having the data. And also, like, you know, there are a dissidents being made that were contingent upon other things happening or not. And as you said, my dad's a wheeler and dealer. And my dad had so much success over the years because he's not

afraid to take risks, right? So, and again, there's so much happening behind the scenes that the public and fans don't know about. But sometimes in order to keep yourself alive for certain situations that could be franchise altering, you need to, you know, maybe forego other opportunities that have more certainty. And then if it doesn't work out, you have to make other decisions, right? So it's almost like constant expected value calculation. You know, and my dad was a master of that. But there's certainly things that I wish that we wouldn't have done that or wouldn't have done this. But, you know, listen, if you would, and you mentioned like draft record, if you would go and look at the data of like who my dad drafted the careers they had, he's had an

excellent draft record. You know, not only did he find folks in the second round, like Michael Redd and Ronald Flett-Murray, who were like, you know, Diamond's in the Ruff and some of the best second-round picks, but, you know, his top picks in the lottery were, they turned out, you know, I mean the top three picks, obviously, the best-le picked ended up not turning out as they would have liked. But, you know, like drafting in the middle of the first round and getting career, you know, serviceable NBA players at 10-year careers and were champions, which he did, you know,

more often than not. You know, he had actually quite good draft record. But, you know, again, like, there's always going to be the decision. Like, I wish I wouldn't have done that. But at the end of the day, man, it's all love. Like, I know he has a lot of love for the D.C. community. He's proud of the teams he built. And then I'm certainly proud of him.

Well, was there one that you called them up and said, you shouldn't have done that? Are you mean when it happened? Yeah, no. When it happened? Honestly, and, you know, listen, I'm a basketball player myself. I grew up around the game. I love the history of the game. I know the game quite well.

Not one time. You know, because, listen, I know, and it's not only my dad, right? There's a whole staff of people. And, you know, after I, you know, fell playing, I got my MBA at Stanford. And so I kind of had an opportunity to deal with, like, some really top business leaders and kind of see how they make decisions. Their processes, in a lot of instances, were exactly how my dad went about his decision-making. And so, like, the process was just there. You know what I mean?

So there was never anything where. I said, oh, like, this is not going to work out. I just believe in his process. And most of the time, it did work out. And again, like, he's one of the longest tenured executives in NBA history. I think that it shows. He was always incredibly well-respected by everybody in the game, that's for sure. Tell him, I said, hello, please.

I am definitely looking forward to this book. I didn't really know what to expect when I had you on, but I really appreciate the conversation and very interested in it. And again, the name of the book is, by the grace of the game, The Holocaust, a basketball legacy, and an unprecedented American dream written by Dan Grunfeld, Ernie's son. And I think hopefully after these last 30 minutes or whatever it's been, he's impressed all of you as much as he has me as well.

Best of luck with the book. I really appreciate it. Thank you, Kevin. It was good to spend time to today, and I'm grateful. Thank you. I really enjoyed that with Dan Grunfell. I hope you did too. Back tomorrow, Tommy will be with me. Enjoy the day.