The Kevin Sheehan Show - Former Redskins' GM Scot McCloughan

Episode Date: July 2, 2026

Kevin opened with one, just one thought on Brandon Aiyuk followed by incredible World Cup comebacks, the Nats series win in Boston, Jaylen Brown traded, and an ESPN column that predicts that the NFL's Offensive Rookie Of The Year will be a Washington Commander. Former Redskins' GM Scot McCloughan jumped on with thoughts on the Commanders' draft, Brandon Aiyuk, Dan Quinn, and a lot more.   For all your football betting needs: DCRELOAD at MyBookie for a 50% Deposit Match Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Sheehan Show. Here's Kevin. One guest on the show with me today. Scott McLuhan's going to join me. We've had Scott on, I think, four or five consecutive years to analyze Washington's draft after the draft. Took me a little while longer to track him down. He's been busy. He's continuing to work as a draft consultant for several teams. but we will get Scott on starting in the next segment. The show's presenting sponsor is always, Window Nation, 86690 Nation, windownation.com if you need new windows. I promise I have just one Brandon Ayuk thought on today's show,

and I will begin with it. Now, I am going to ask Scott what he would do about Brandon Ayuk if he were the general manager of an NFL team. But as of the recording of the first, podcast and it is a later recording today and I'll explain why in a moment. But as of this early Wednesday evening, July 1st, it's now been four days and counting since Brandon Ayuk's last social media video post. Four days and counting, we have not heard anything from Brandon Ayuk. His last social media posts and videos were on late Saturday, early Sunday.

So it's been pretty much four days. I think that's a record since he started this social media campaign against his current employer. It is possible. Possible, I wouldn't bet on it, but it's possible that the finale of his video series was the three-plus minute rant on late Saturday afternoon when he called John Lynch and his agent, weirdos and creepy predators. Maybe just maybe somebody, you know, a new agent, a family member, a close friend, maybe somebody finally got through to him and gave him some good advice that he's actually willing to listen to. We'll see, but over the last, you know, three and a half

weeks, I'm pretty sure he hasn't gone this long without posting something. The good advice would be no more videos, no more public attacks on your current employer. Don't mention Washington at all again. Apply for reinstatement. Go face to face with the 49ers, and an agent, you know, hopefully, and try to get to where you want to get to with some semblance of good faith and big boy words. Maybe that's coming next. Stay tuned. All right.

I'm getting to this podcast late today because I was absolutely hooked on both of the World Cup games today. Today was different in the World Cup because both winners with the USA still to come against Bosnia, both winners, England and Belgium, came from behind to win their round of 32 games. England's Harry Kane in the first game today scored twice in the second half. England beat Congo two to one. They were down one-nothing for the majority of the game. His second goal came in the 86th minute of the game.

So when he scored, there were four minutes left of regular time and then, you know, whatever stoppage time would get added to that. Ultimately, I think it was seven minutes it was added to it. So there were still, when he scored the go-ahead goal, he scored both of the goals, there were roughly 11 or 12 minutes left in the game. But I'm telling you, what was so interesting about the broadcast is when he scored that second goal to give England a two-to-one lead, In the announcer's minds, the game was over. It didn't matter that there were four minutes plus another six, seven, eight minutes of stoppage time. The game was over. I mean, Congo played their hearts out.

What a devastating defeat for the Congo. But Harry Kane, man, he's just a star. And stars do what they have to do to lead their teams to victory. And that's what he just did. A marvelous game. England will play Mexico next. They're going to have to get some rest because that game's played at elevation, and it just kept going on and on and on.

The game was over, except for it wasn't. I mean, the Congo had an opportunity with one of those free kicks late in the game. It was in stoppage time. They had a couple of rushes, too, where they could have scored. But they didn't. So I guess the announcers ultimately were right. The game actually was over, and England did hold on to win two to one. You know, the way they talked about that game after Harry Kane's second goal fit my own personal

narrative of what soccer is and one of the drawbacks of soccer for Americans. There just aren't any comebacks. rarely. A one-goal lead with 12 to 13 minutes left is considered to be insurmountable. But then, the second game today. Belgium just completed one of the greatest comebacks in World Cup history. I'm not a historian of the World Cup. I'm just repeating what I heard the announcers and the post-game people say. Belgium was down not only 2-0, 2-0, 2-0, against Senegal. They were down 2-0 with just 14 minutes left before whatever stoppage time there would be.

They scored in the 86th minute, they scored in the 89th minute, and then the game went to extra time, and they scored again in the 125th minute. to complete the only two-goal comeback of the World Cup so far. And according to some of the people that we're talking about it, just moments ago afterwards, it's one of the most stunning comebacks in World Cup history. A one-to-nothing lead is like you've got an 80% chance to win. A two-to-nothing lead or a two-goal lead, your probability rate of winning is in the 90s.

high 90s, and especially with little time left, and Belgium came back, they were dead. They came back, and I'm telling you, I couldn't turn it off. The goal they scored in extra time was on a penalty kick, which seemed to be a somewhat controversial call. I don't know. Belgium moves on, and the U.S., if they win tonight, will face Belgium in the round of 16. or as we call it the Sweet 16. I'm not going to lie to you. It was really entertaining and exciting,

as many of these games have been. I hate soccer. I love the World Cup. The U.S. tonight favored to beat Bosnia, Herzegovina, in the round of 32. The Nats finished off their series in Fenway with another clobbering of the Red Sox this afternoon. They won 10 to 2 following up last night's 8 to 1 win.

That included the dust up between Cade Covelli and Wilson Contreras. Cavali got the last laugh. 13 strikeouts last night and 7 innings complete allowed just one hit, zero earned runs. Between Foster Griffin and Cade Cavali, I mean two of what, that's the last three games before today. Unbelievable starting pitching performances. today 10 to 2. The Nats just rolled up in two games against the Red Sox, a team that was coming off a four-game sweep of the Yankees.

The Nats just rolled up 18 runs on 25 hits. Two or three in Boston, and they are back to now two games over 500 at 45 and 43. Big night last night and a big day today for James. Wood, who's out of, you know, I think a mini slump. Three for five with two RBIs last night, two for four with a three-run homer today. The Nats off that brutal series last week against the Phillies. They have bounced back and have won four of six.

Massive trade just went down in the NBA. A massive trade. Jalen Brown is gone from the Boston Sulfield. Celtics, dealt to the Philadelphia 76ers. Jalen Brown to Philadelphia for Paul George, two first round picks, and two second round picks. I don't get this one. I don't get trading Jalen Brown at all.

I didn't even think it was a good trade to trade Jalen Brown for Janus, because Janus is not always available. Jalen Brown had an unbelievable season. If I'm a Celtics fan, I'm not happy. Paul George is 36 years old. Are you kidding me? 36. Yonis would have been an easier sell.

Even with all the draft picks that Boston's getting back, they're just, you know, they're in rebuild mode. I mean, I'm sure they think Paul George and Jason Tatum can contend in the East. I don't. I would have done everything to keep Jalen Brown, including him paying them a lot more and, you know, doing whatever I needed to do to convince he and Jason Tatum, hey, you guys did it once, you won a title, let's do it again. I'm surprised by that.

Busy day in the NBA. If you were hopeful from a wizard standpoint that they could nb a backup big like Mitchell Robinson, that's not going to happen. he's headed to the Boston Celtics as well. Mike Conley Jr. Just became the 14th player to play 20 seasons in the NBA. He signed a one-year deal to play with Boston as well. So I don't know, Mitchell Robinson, Mike Conley,

and then you add Paul George to it. I mean, between Conley and George, you've got combined ages of like 76 years old. What a career he's had, though. Mike Connolly has had an excellent career 20 years ago. 20 years ago, he won the national title. I'm sorry, was in the national championship game with Ohio State. They lost to Florida.

All those years in Memphis, years in Utah, and then the last four or five, at least in Minnesota. He had a couple of good playoff games for Minnesota. this year. I just can't believe Jalen Brown was traded. I just, I mean, the Yonest thing, okay, you're getting another major star

back even though he hasn't been healthy. Paul George is not a major star anymore. He just isn't. All right. I want to finish up this opening segment with two things. The first is this. Ben Solac, ESPN,

wrote a column today. titled 10 predictions for the 2026 NFL season. He writes, by the way, in introduction of his 10 predictions. He writes, I like predicting the NFL season. I don't think I've ever gotten it right, but it's still a good time. So I came up with 10 early predictions. Before you dive into these 2026 predictions, remember how absurd and accurate preseason 2025 prediction would have looked.

The Seahawks and Patriots were both. outside the top 16 for preseason Super Bowl odds. We didn't even know if Jackson Smith Najigba could be a wide receiver number one, let alone the wide receiver number one in Seattle. The NFL is far harder to figure out a couple of weeks out, let alone a few months. Yeah, it's the absolute hardest league to predict. no doubt about it. So I'm not going to take you through all 10 of his predictions, but I am going to

take you to one. His last prediction was him predicting the offensive rookie of the year in the NFL. And his prediction is that Washington wide receiver Antonio Williams will win the offensive rookie of the year. He writes, who? Williams, was the 71st pick of the 2026 draft and the ninth receiver off the board. Although receivers have recently won this award more frequently, we haven't seen late drafted players break into the ranks. Even Puka Nakua's 105 catches for 1486 yards weren't enough to beat C.J. Stroud's strong rookie season in 2023. The latest drafted receiver to win rookie of the year was Kwan Bolden all the way back in 2003. He was the 54th pick of the draft. Now, he goes into an

explanation as to why he's going receiver. Part of it has to do with the quarterback class. You know, you've got Mendoza, but Cousins is very likely to start the season. Will Mendoza play enough games as a rookie to qualify for rookie of the year? The other first round quarterback, Ty Simpson, he's not going to play this year. Matt Stafford's the starter in Los Angeles. And then he writes, you know, even the running backs. You know, if you go to Jeremiah Love, he's in Arizona that's probably going to be a bad team. And he's, you know, he's like, it's going to be hard to win offensive rookie of the year on a team that could be among the worst in the NFL. And he just said the rest of the running back class is just super thin.

You know, the only other highly drafted running back was his Notre Dame teammate, Judarian Price. Price went to Seattle, but he's going to be into a, you know, probably a sharing carry situation with the Seahawks. Wide receiver wise, he's like, yeah, Carnell Tite. Carnell Tate was picked number four, but with the Titans. And, you know, Mackay Lemon is in an Eagles receiver's room, maybe not, with A.J. Brown anymore, but with some other good receivers. So he writes, but Williams, Antonio Williams, has an opportunity that stacks up against many of his early drafted contemporaries. There's hardly any competition in the commander's receivers room behind Terry McClorn.

Williams will catch passes from Jaden Daniels, a remarkably better quarterback than players such as Casey Concepcion and Denzel Boston or Omar Cooper. will work with in 2026. Concepcion, by the way, Boston, they're both with Cleveland, and Omar Cooper is with the Jets. He writes, Williams still needs to dodge

the late summer edition of a Brandon Ayuk or Stefan Diggs, but his path to high-quality targets is shockingly clear for a third-round pick. Williams is also a hand-in-glove fit for David Blow's Detroit-inspired offense, Williams is an easy glider who makes fearless catches over the middle of the field.

He dramatically improved his drop rate in 2025 and has that knack for quarterback friendliness. Smart routes, good adjustments to bad balls, inside out versatility, and yards after catch ability. He is evidently cut from the Ammanra St. Brown cloth, and St. Brown's reliability helped him break into the lion's starting lineup as a fourth round. rookie. How about that? Boy, that would be a pleasant surprise, wouldn't it? If all of the angst over the wide receiver room is solved by Antonio Williams having an offensive rookie of the year season, yeah, that would be a nice surprise. I'm bullish on Antonio Williams. I could see him being a big part of what they do. I'd still prefer for Washington to go get Stefan Diggs at this point.

But, you know, like Jay Gruden told me on Monday's show, you know, we're not there. We weren't there and nobody has any idea, no clue as to what they thought coming out of all of the offseason work about their wide receiver room. We know what David Blow said. We know what others said is that they feel pretty good about it. We also know that they were very, very aggressive trying to add to that room in free agency with Alec Pierce and Romeo Dobbs, and they just couldn't land either one of them. And I still believe that Carnell Tate would have been a good bet at seven. I mean, if Sunny Stiles were there as well, you know, if you flipped, if Sunny Stiles got picked by Tennessee at four and Tate was on the board without styles available.

I think Tate would have been the pick. With Tate and Stiles available, let's just say somebody else, Caleb Downs or somebody else went, you know, in an earlier spot. I don't know what would have happened, but I think Tate was a receiver they were very high on. Antonio Williams ends up being the pick for them at 71 overall in the third round. And then there's Van Jefferson and Diami Brown

in terms of the receiver room. We'll see how it shakes out, but I bet you you're not going to find anybody else that predicts that Antonio Williams, a third round receiver, the ninth overall, is going to be the offensive rookie of the year. Lastly, before we get to Scott McLuhan on the show today, I wanted to play something for you. I saw this last night. Champ Bailey was on Ryan Clark's podcast. I think it's called The Pivot. And he was asked about his time in Washington.

I'm going to play the whole thing for you sort of going out of this opening segment. And I'll give you my comments on it to begin with, because you're probably going to have similar thoughts. But man, was it messed up from the beginning?

Once Dan Snyder got a hold of this team, we didn't know it at the time, but Champ Bailey, was there. Remember, Champ Bailey was the pick in 99 after Charlie Casserly had traded basically the entire draft to New Orleans

and to Mike Ditkut so that they could draft Ricky Williams and then Champ Bailey, they moved back into a spot to select him. What a rookie season Champ Bailey had here. And Champ Bailey looked like he was on his way

as it turns out he was to a, you know, Hall of Fame career. We didn't know that then. We knew he was really, really good and super talented, and there was a really good chance that he was going to be a very good player. Obviously, he lasted five years here,

and then was dealt in 2004 for Clinton Portis. But you'll hear him talk about the Portis trade, too, which I, for years, have said, that was a one-sided trade. You don't trade a corner and a second- rounder for a running back. You should have gotten a second rounder back. He actually talks about that as well. But you're going to hear him talk about Snyder and some of the things that Snyder did early on, including, you know, self-proclaiming himself to be a prick right after he bought the team.

And it was a shit show from the beginning. You know, it's interesting because on the radio show today, and maybe I'll do this with Tommy tomorrow. But in lieu of... of or in response to some of the LeBron James to Washington fantasy stuff that's out there, that's not going to happen. No chance will that happen. I'll be shocked if it happens. But I asked callers to come up with the player that came to a D.C. sports team late in their career, they were already established as stars in other cities.

They'll be remembered for their time in the other cities. But, you know, Michael Jordan, you know, Lots of bullets slash wizards sort of came to mind. Bernard King, Moses Malone, Gus Williams. We've had a lot of them over the years. You know, Redskins-wise, what popped into my mind almost immediately was the 2000 season when they went and got Bruce Smith, Mark Carrier, and Dion Sanders. And I said today, and I know I've said it before, I didn't think anything about Dan Snyder in 2000 when they went out and signed all those. big names. I actually was legitimately excited about it. And I was pumped about Dion. Dion was still

at 33 years old, great, really great. And I was excited about it. And it took me, you know, I think my first uh-oh with Snyder was when he fired Marty Schottenheimer after one season. I guess in that 2000 season when he fired Norv late, it was not a good look. And then we started to hear the stories about how he had gone into the locker room after an early season game against Dallas. And, you know, he put the vanilla ice cream on Mike Nolan's desk and said your defenses are two vanilla as the ice cream melted all over the desk. I mean, he was a tyrant, clearly.

But anyway, I'm going to leave you going out of this segment with, it's about four minutes of Champ Bailey talking about those early days in Washington on the Ryan Clark Pivot podcast. I got drafted and Charlie Cassley was the GM. Dan Snyder didn't get confirmed as owner until that summer. So I was never one of his guys. I remember negotiating my rookie contract with them. And it was a nightmare.

I think I signed my deal right before training camp or something. It was just a nightmare the way they tried. It was just weird. And I should have known at that point, like, doing business with them is going to be hard. The next year, they draft Chris Samuels and Lovar Arrington back to back. Both those dudes re-up before I did. So think about it. Now, I'm a first-round pick.

They first-round picks. They re-up before I do. All right. Well, damn, I mean, writing is really on the wall here. Like, I know what's about to happen. So as I'm negotiating my deal, my agent puts the contract, the numbers out there. basically laughed at it. I'm coming out four straight pro bowls.

I'm at the height of my career, how would you not? I'm a rare commodity. I understood that at the time. So when we showed the deal to the potential teams that wanted to sign me, I wasn't under the franchise tag. They couldn't trade me unless I signed the tag. So I was in much control of where I went and when I went. And there was two teams on the table, the Jets and the Broncos.

They both looked at our deal I think the Jets wanted to do six years Broncos wanted to do seven So I was like okay cool Let me sign this tags I get the hell on But then I found out That they traded for Clinton Portis

And the second round pick Went with me I was like damn They really think they got one here So you know And I was a little mad at the Broncos Because they had to get rid of Clinton How much did you even try to work on

a relationship with Mr. Snyder at that time in order to build something there where you could get a deal. Well, dealing with that my rookie year, like, you know, the first meeting he walks up there and he basically self-proclaimed himself a prick. Like, that's what he said to the whole team. That was the, so in hindsight, I could say a lot of things were happening that I should have like noticed, but I was engulfed in football. I'm young.

I'm 20 years old. I'm 20. I don't know nothing. I'm just trying to do what Del Green doing. You know what I'm saying? Like, that didn't bother me because it was all about football for me. And it was really just hearing what the vets were saying, you know, and it's kind of feeding off that.

And when we go out to practice, they have those four or five white chairs, depending on who he's bringing to practice that day. You know, helicopter fly in during practice, laying right there next to the field. And just very disruptive. So there was a lot of signs. I never really had any motivation to go sit down with him. I mean, I didn't think I needed to.

What I needed to do is go play and play well. That was all I needed to do, right? And that's what I did, and it just wasn't enough. And, you know, fortunate enough for me, there's 31 other teams. And a couple of them wanted me, and that's all I needed. Champ Bailey from Ryan Clark's podcast, the pivot. Of course, we know what happened after the trade, After five incredible seasons in Washington, he went on to have an even better run in Denver as he was coming into his prime.

And Champ Bailey is in the Hall of Fame. All right, Scott McLuhan next after these words from a few of our sponsors. This segment of the show is brought to you by Window Nation. If you're using chat to get answers for your next home improvement project, If you want new windows or doors instead of intelligence, I'll give you real world experience. Window Nation gets it done every single time. And this month, Window Nation is offering up to 50% off on all window styles with no money down, zero interest, and no payments for two full years.

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I promise you, Window Nation is the real deal. All right. Joining me right now is Scott McLuhan. Scott, of course, was the general manager here in 2015 and in 2016. This is about the fifth straight year. I think Scott has made an appearance on this show, following the NFL draft, sometimes a few weeks after the draft, sometimes a few months after the draft, but we're always thrilled to be able to track him down to get him on the show

to talk about Washington's draft. Now, you told me, and we've been talking a little bit, and I'm actually going to turn this into a conversation about you and your life prior to football, because it's interesting how you got into football, And we'll talk a little bit about some of those early days with the Packers and with the Niners and Seahawks. We'll do that with Scott today. But you did mention to me that some of the players that Washington drafted towards the backside of their draft,

a little bit deeper into the draft, you're not as familiar with because you weren't necessarily studying those players for the teams that you were consulting this year. but you've got a good feel for certainly their first two or three picks. So let's start there, Scott. Let's start with Washington selecting Sunny Stiles, the linebacker from Ohio State at number seven overall. Did they get it right? Yes. Sunny fine.

But that has a no-barner. That's simple. Let me ask you something. If Carnell Tate had been there at seven and Washington had taken Carnell Tate at seven, Would you be saying the same thing about their pick at seven? Did you like Tate or not? I liked him. It was just, he's kind of a one-year wonder, you know?

Well, and Sonny is too, but they had a really good defense. The thing about Sonny, he's versatile. He can play inside or outside, you know. I like Sonny. So you think that was a good pick? Is there a player in that first round? this past April, that you thought was overdrafted, and was there a player that you thought was underdrafted?

Oh, boy. My personal opinion, of course, but I'm just one guy. You know, I think the quarterback from Alabama is overdrafted. Okay, Ty Simpson. Simpson, yeah. But it's the position alone, you know. I think not being a guru, but he's like J.J. McCarthy.

He's like Mack Jones. He's a career backup. Ideally, ideally, he might start. But that's because of where his pick was and they want to prove everybody right, you know, type of thing. And that's not the way you should build a roster. Not at all. Did you like Mendoza?

I did. I did. I thought he's not overly athletic, but good enough. And big kid, which I always liked the size. Right. And he made big throws and big time time where a lot of guys couldn't do it. And the guy went undefeated. Yeah.

Senior year. I mean, you know, we still always measure quarterbacks. I go back to high school and in college. And tell me to win the loss record. Tell me who's the winner and who's a loser. And I'm telling you, the majority of the time, the good ones, they win a lot. Give me the player that you were in love with that you think the team that picked that player at that spot got tremendous. tremendous value.

Oh, boy. Does that be a first rounder? It doesn't have to be a first rounder. The linebacker from Missouri. I think he's Nick Bolton. I think he's... Trotter. Trotter. Yep. Yep.

The son of. Yeah, the son of. I think he's going to be a dang good football. ball player. I think he was a steel. Let me ask you about Ruben Bain Jr.'s short arms. Is that a real issue? You like the hunter's got to ask me this. You know what? It is from the standpoint of being on the leverage. If you don't have enough strength, put your hands on somebody and move them. But he's so good off the ball. He's got so much power and explosion in his hips that he knocked guys

backwards all the time. You can give me a guy with 35 and a half inch arms that knocks nobody back. You give me a guy with 33 inch arms and he's knocking guys back. I'm taking the guy of 33 inch arms. 100%. 100%.

Now, yeah, it's like the 40 time with wide receivers. Everybody's like, oh, look at a fastie-ran. and all this and that kind of bullshit. And it doesn't matter. Put the pads on. Let's see what happens on the field. You know, worthy.

Everybody's like, oh, he's going to be great. He's going to be this, that, and all this. And he does one thing. He runs vertical routes. And he doesn't catch a ball. You know, it's, geez. I mean, it's just you can have all the measurable as you want. And don't get me wrong.

They're important. I mean, you want Miles Garrett. You know, you want a guy that's 6-4, 280, 290 pounds with arm length and strength and all that. Sure. That's why he got picked where he got picked. Right. But Ruben Bain, I would love him be on my team because I'm telling you, he gets in the guys and he's all power. I mean, there's no stopping him.

you know, and it's like, well, his arms are short. I don't care. He's getting to the quarterback. What do you ask him to do? No, I liked him a lot. I gave him a top 10 grade. And for me, that's a big time grade. What did you think of Washington's wide receiver,

the Antonio Williams kid from Clemson? I like him. I like him a lot. I don't think he's overly physical, but I like his traits. Yeah, I think. I think he's a good football player. I gave him a damn good grade.

Can he play outside and inside? I think so. Yeah. Yep. What about Joseph's, the defensive end from Tennessee? Did you have any thoughts on him? They took him in the fifth round. You know, no one asked me to watch him,

teams or agents, so I don't really know him. But I know I saw him flash on TV when I'd be watching him. Washington, Tennessee. And he had some cool stuff. He has some cool stuff. They're running back from Penn State. They had a couple of them. Do you like the guy Washington got in Ketron Allen?

Well, the thing about it was they had two guys that were rotating back and forth, back and forth since their freshman year. And I never saw, I never saw them in the proof. They were always the same. same guy, you know, which is kind of scary. You know, and maybe it's Penn State and maybe.

Yeah, you're talking about Allen and Singleton. Both of them were at Penn State for a while together. Yeah, but I'm just saying they never improved. They always, like, stayed the same, you know. And I don't know if it's a coach and change, offensive scheme. I have no idea. but they both look like they're going to be legit early, you know, the freshman year.

And then all of a sudden they kind of both just kind of petered out. All right, we're going to take a break. And when we come back with Scott, I am going to ask him about Brandon Ayuk at some point. But he and I were talking before we started to record today. And his journey from college baseball player to NFL general manager is an interesting one. We will get to some of that with Scott after these words from a few of our sponsors.

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Scott has come on with me for four or five years after the draft to kind of give us his thoughts on the players that Washington selected and then some other thoughts related to the draft. But I don't think we've done this before. And that is kind of talk about your personal journey from a really good college baseball player to an eventual NFL general manager. So let's start with, you're in high school, you're getting recruited by everybody to play baseball, but you end up at Wichita State. Why Wichita State at that time back in the late 80s versus somewhere else? Well, first of all, they just went a national championship, but I accepted the scholarship prior to that because it was only seven and a half hours away from my house, my parents' house, and the other schools were much further. And it's

kind of weird. It wasn't because of a girl, wasn't because of, you know, they had been phenomenal over the history. You know, Arkansas and Oklahoma, would came down to my last two with Wichita. We're both legit. You know, big time players, you know, every year and all that, and won games and all that. But

it honestly came down just being close to home, closer to home. Tell everybody what you had an opportunity to do straight out of high school. Yeah, I got drafted. I got dressed by the Mets. Tenth round.

And, you know, I'm going to small town in Colorado, you know, but they'd follow me around, follow me around, and then all of a sudden I got drafted, and I ended up playing for my hometown team, but I'd also go to Cherry Creek, which is in Denver, which had like five and six Division I won players on it. So I played both of them, and the Mets would follow me around everywhere I went, everywhere I want. And, you know, I got offered a lot of money for a 10th round pick. And every time they showed up, you know, I kind of played out. So I just, I was just rolling. What position did you play? Shortstop. And how much did the Mets offer you for a 10th round selection back in 89, or 88, whatever year that was?

It was 89. It was 300,000. I mean, that was, 18, it's the thing about this, 18 years old, and I'm getting off for 300,000. What did your father say? What did your parents say about it? My dad was talking to Ron Wolf, who was really tight with Pat Gillick, who was a travel manager. I think at that time for the Orioles. Yeah, for the Orioles. Yeah, sure. And he said that's a lot of money for a 10th round pick.

That's third round money. And my dad's like, nope, you're going to college. And honestly, the best thing I did by far, best thing I did just to mature and grow. And we had really good teams. I played in two college roles series, played a national championship game. it was, yeah, I wouldn't change it. Not right now. Because I got drafted in 10th round coming out my junior year when I left.

And I was a 10th round pick. And I got $60,000. So wait a minute. A few years later, after your junior year at Wichita State, drafted again in the 10th round, by whom? The Blue Jays. But, yeah, they offered $60K. And I left college early.

and I enjoyed the crud out of it. I played three years in the minor league, made the All-Star team. But then I get a call from my dad, and I'm in Seattle, getting ready to watch my brother play for the Seahawks. And my dad says, Ron Wolf wants to talk to you. Your father, just so everybody knows, your father was an NFL player, played for the Raiders for many years. in the NFL and in the NFL, and then worked for Ron Wolfe as a scout. Correct. All the fame, GM, just so you know.

Right. Yeah, he wants to talk to you. Like, about what? You know, baseball? You know, because he had a son that loved me to death. Well, Elliot Wolf, who's with the Patriots. Right. And he says, well, he wants a couple hats signed by you and sent to him for him and his son.

I'm like, that's fine. That's simple. And then he said, but he wanted to talk to you about football. I'm like, what? You know, and I'm in Seattle with my brother and my friend. And I'm like, because at that time, I had a torn rotator cuff. So I'm getting ready to have surgery with the Blue Jays. Yeah.

And then, you know, thought to Ron, and he's like, I went off you, you know, area scout job. And I'm like, okay, I got to talk to my dad, because my dad's with the Raiders, 47 years. And him and Ron were really close. And so I said, let me think about it. You know, I always want to be back in football. That was my passion. You know. What made him think that you would be a good scout?

I think my father would talk to him, and I knew every stat, I knew every player, I knew every college, I knew every jersey number. It was weird. I was like, anal, I guess. Right. Yeah, I think I get it. you were a baseball player, but your true passion and obsession, really, was football. And, you know, as a young person, you just knew so much about it that it was impressive to, you know,

people around you, especially people who were working in the game, like your father and Ron Wolf. Oh, yeah, 100%. So Ron Wolf hires you to be a scout. Do you remember the first time you did something, with respect to identifying a talent, reviewing a film and making a recommendation where you knew this was for you and they knew you could do it?

Well, first of all, I flew in to Green Bay. Never been ever before, ever. Yeah. You know, and Green Bay is Green Bay, which is phenomenal. You know, it's a small little city that has a phenomenal football. atmosphere. But I flew in and I was supposed to sign a contract. And Ted Thompson, at the time, God bless his soul, was the director of player personnel. And he says, okay, Scott, I want you to

sign this. I'm like, okay. First contract I've had in NFL. and he says I've never in my life seen Ron Wolf hire a guy without watching tape or writing a report yeah it's like if I'm just signing and move on

take it and run with it yeah you know so I did and then I remember my first year and it wasn't all me he was all the scouts you know, everybody in the personnel department and Ron and Ted, all that stuff. But I fought for Adam Tamerman.

Okay, the guard. Ron's like, yeah, Ron's like, why are you fighting for him? I said, I'm telling you, I want the South Dakota State three times that spring, slash winter, to get him to run a faster short shuttle. I'm like, Ron, I'm done coming here. Brookings, South Dakota. Are you kidding me? Do you understand how hard it is to get here?

Yeah. And he's like, no. So he drafted him in the seventh, and the son of a gun end up being a pro bowler. Wow. We would draft him to seven. I fought for him. I fought for him.

You know, but I didn't know any better. I thought I was Mr. Noe at all. You know, I found out later I'm not. But, yeah, no, but it was Adam Timmerman. That was probably the first. I mean, you know, you have your early guys, but they're easy to figure out. To have a seventh rounder, go to the Pro Bowl is pretty freaking cool. Yeah, for sure.

I'm looking at Adam Timmerman right now. He was a pro bowler. He was a second team, all pro. He ultimately, with the Rams, made the Rams 10th anniversary team. he was a two-time Super Bowl champion with the Packers and then again with the Rams. I certainly remember Adam Timmermans. So you're in Green Bay. I'm sorry to cut you out.

I'm sorry. I forget this. He was older than me, and he called him Mr. McLuhan. And he was older than you. Yeah. He was older than me. So it must have been cool to be a part of the Packers organization when they go back to the Super Bowl with Holmgren and with Brett Favre and with Reggie White and beat

the Patriots in that Super Bowl. I mean, I'm looking through, like the first three teams you're a part of were all teams that went to the Super Bowl. So tell me about those, you know, the Packers in 95 that ended up winning the whole thing. It was incredible. It was incredible. You know, and the funny thing about it. There's the first play of the game.

We're on offense. You know, Brett's Brett. Brett, he's a stud, three-time MVP, all that kind of crap. But Andre Risen runs the wrong route. And Brett still hits him. Really? That's down. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. He ran the wrong round. Brett audible at the line of scrimmage, and Andre Risen ran the wrong round. The next thing you know is a freaking time. So from the Packers, you get the college scouting director job in Seattle before becoming, I think, really a GM for the first time in San Francisco. So tell me how sort of you get from Green Bay. Are you, in that last year in Green Bay, because it says you're in Green Bay from 94 to 99, you had gone from like, a regional scout to what?

How does that elevate? What was your job when you left Green Bay and went to Seattle? I was still an area scout. And the only reason I left, because I didn't want to leave, because the organization's phenomenal, you know. And at that time, it's Bob Harlan, who was overseeing it, but he wasn't overseeing it. He was just head of the committee.

You know, there were 10 guys that pretty much ran it. you know, it's not a one organization, own team. And Ron told me, he says, you got to leave. I'm like, leave, why? He says, I'm going to retire. I'm like, why? He says, because of free agency. He says, I draft good players, and everybody's taking my good players.

I can't pay all of them. And he says, I'm out of this thing in the year. I'm done in the year. And he says, you go with Ted Thompson. you go with Mike Holmgren and you'll win two to three games no matter what more with Mike Holmgren as your head coach.

Wow. So I left. I ended up moving out of Colorado and going to Seattle and being in an office. You know, of course, still traveling a lot and being like an over-the-top scout. Right. You know, but I knew Ted,

very well. I knew Mike really well, and we had a good relationship. We've been together the whole time in Green Bayes. The Seattle 2005 team that went to the Super Bowl and lost to the Steelers, how many of those players would you say

you were responsible for on that roster? Well, I wouldn't say, I don't take credit for anybody, you know, besides Frank Gore. Frank Gore. Because no one, No one else in one of them. In San Francisco, yeah, of course.

Yeah. But in Seattle, we had a really good staff, you know. And Ted was excellent as a general manager. There's never highs. They're never lows. We just were steady, steady eddies. You know, and he, you know, the thing about the 05 team was the fact that the decent,

defense was so dang good. Yeah. I mean, it was incredible, you know. I remember, I remember going to Super Bowl again when we played the Broncos, my second time there. Right. And Green Bay, yeah. The Elway Super Bowl, yeah.

No, no, no, no, no, no. The Seattle Super Bowl. Oh, the Seattle, Denver, the Super Bowl, are you talking about the one in the Meadowlands? Yes. Yeah, okay. And, you know, when I was with Johnny, John Schneider, the GM.

Sure. You know, and I'm up in the owner's box to watch the game. It's packed. You know, of course. Yeah. And I'm like, John, I'm out of here. I'm going on the sideline. And that game was such a whooping.

It was like a high school game. It was like a high school game. Yeah. You know, one team was so much better than the other team. It was like a, I think a safety was like the beginning, it was like Peyton got sacked for either safety or a fumble touchdown to start that game. Nah, it was snap over his head.

Snap over his head. Okay. Yeah. It ended up in his safety. It's too nothing, but I'm telling you, they came back out on an offense, and we were just lighting them up. Yeah. Our boys were intense, intense, intense, intense.

I never forget. I was looking at Peyton, walk out the field, and he just had his head down. He knew he was done. Yeah. Well, that was. That was an ass kicking. You know, I'll tell you that New York Super Bowl, just for media people, I'll just share this with you. Everybody kind of dreaded it because, you know, you weren't anywhere near the stadium.

You were in Manhattan, which I'm like, what are you kidding me? This is a great spot for a Super Bowl. But if you remember, it was freezing there all week long. And then just in time for the game, the weather got nice. And then about six hours after the game, they got a foot of snow. No, I got stuck with my son. Yeah, right. New York.

Yeah. But I wanted to, a couple of things, just going back to Seattle the first time, because you left, you were not, you weren't the director of college scouting in 05 when they went to the Super Bowl. At that point, you had already gotten in 05, which, by the way, is the Alex Smith draft year. That was your first year in San Francisco, correct? Correct. All right. So Alex Smith, what do you remember about that draft, the Alex Smith or Aaron Rogers' draft?

You know what? It was not a top heavy draft at all. I had 12 picks, which I loved. And I think 10 of them made the team. Alex, you know, of course, hindsight's 20-20. Going back, you take Aaron Rogers. the first ballot hall of famer. Right.

I get it. But I was so worried about the personality that I'm bringing in to be the franchise guy. You know, you had Brailing Edwards, you had, you know, those type of players up top. Right. But I wasn't taking a receiver. I wasn't taking a DB. I was taking the quarterback, you know, and. The thing about Alex Smith, and it proved out.

To the day, it proves out. He was such a good guy. He was such a teammate. His character, his humbleness, I mean, you know, when I drafted him, he's 20 years old. You know, and he never called a play in the huddle. He never been in her center, even in high school. Yeah.

Yeah. You know, and I'm just like, it was going to be. take a little time, guys, just understand, and McCarthy was our O.C. Right. He's like, he's not going to play this year. I'm like, okay. He says, I'll train him.

I'll get him right. He'll get because he loved him. You know, and Mike no one was the head coach, and he's a defensive-minded guy, of course. And he didn't know. You know, shit, I didn't know. I was 34 years

old. You were 34. That was the first draft that you had complete control over as the true GM, correct? Correct, correct. But you said that Frank Gore, you love to take credit for Frank Gore, you picked him in the third round of that draft.

Why Frank Gore? Why, is this your all-time favorite pick? Well, the thing of battle was, when he was the freshman, I wouldn't watch Edgarine James and Clinton Porter.

Right. You know, they're Miami backs, you know, and it's late in the game. And all of a sudden, this guy comes in. They did the end on the ball, and it's like, who's that? Right. Oh, smokes. And all of a sudden, he's a true freshman. And it's Frank Gore.

You know, and of course, then he blows his knee out twice. Both shoulders need to be repaired. You know, so he comes out after his junior year. And, you know, of course, I was the honor because I'm like, it's like Anquam Bolden. I saw him as a freshman that same year. I'm like, this guy's going to be a player. He's going to be a player no matter what.

You know, so you identify certain traits. And then I get back from the combine, you know, of course, a lot of the combine, which is very important, is the medical. Yeah. You know, I mean, you got all the on-field stuff. But the medical interviews are very important. And Frank could barely converse, barely. But enough where you can understand them.

And then I get back from the Combine, back to San Fran, and the doctors say, well, he's a medical reject. I'm like, what? And it's before the owner and the coach came in. Because we're at our medical meeting, you know, everybody has one after the combine before the draft and here's what it is, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And I'm like, you got to change that grade.

I'm not a doctor. They changed the grade to a past grade. He did. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. No, he was like a two, which is pretty much a reject. Right. And then they changed it to three, which means he's fine.

Almost a reject. Yeah. But it doesn't have to go. Right. And the thing about it is, you know, running back at that time, and still I'm sure the same, was average career was like three, four years, you know, in running back. Yeah. Some of the gun played 16 years.

Third leading Russia in the country in the world. All time. You know what? Like, I think for me as, you know, a lifelong football fan who, and I know you have a phenomenal memory. of teams and players and the whole thing. I think that's the biggest surprise for me on the all-time rushing list.

Because if you said, you know, rip off the top five. I'd say, well, I know Emmett and Walter are won two. I know Barry's in that group, and I believe that Adrian Peterson and maybe Curtis Martin are in that group. Frank Gore is third, all-time on the rushing list,

with 16,000 yards. And by the way, when he retired, he was only 726 yards short of Peyton, Walter Payton at 2, which is pretty amazing. Let me ask you about the 2005 draft. You've already mentioned about Alex Smith. But, you know, that was a draft in Washington where this is Joe Gibbs coming back for, you know, his second go-around. 0-4 was the first year they drafted in that draft. they drafted Sean Taylor in that 04 draft. But in that draft, they drafted Carlos Rogers, I think, at number nine overall. And then they traded back into the first round right after Green Bay selected Aaron Rogers to take Jason Campbell.

Joe fell in love with him. That's the story when he went down to Auburn and they worked out Carlos Rogers. Do you remember where you had Jason Campbell in that draft? I wasn't a big fan I know he was tall he was long he was athletic I know he had a strong arm but not

I did not think he was worth the value of that pick I could see him going in third or fourth you know and working with him right because he was

he was a long way off I thought when you were in Seattle the second go round, 2010 to 2013 when they, you know, beat Denver in the Super Bowl. Dan Quinn was the defensive

coordinator on that Super Bowl team. What did you think of Dan Quinn? Then, then. Love him. He was a hell of a D-Coronator. He followed Gus Bradley. He was a D-Corpsator before him.

Both quality, quality guys, player coaches, big time. player coaches. And I respected it. You know, and they, he had, Dan had an edge,

but he, he, he, he only showed it when he had to. He was most of time, straight up, good guy. Right.

You know, and not to me, to the players. You know, I, it was, you know, and we were very talented,

very talented. So, I mean, you and I could call the defense. You're all right. Yeah. But he, yeah, no, he, it's unique with both him and Gus. I'd have long conversations, and they just picked my brain.

It was very unique. You know, they always want to know more and more and more. You know, why personnel, why would you do this? Why would you do that? You know, what are you looking for here? What are you looking for there? You know, it was very unique. Very unique.

But, yeah, now, Dan, Dan's cool. Dan's really, really good, dude. Damn good coach. I don't know how closely you followed the team that you were the GM of here in 2015 and 2016. Last year, they had a lot of injuries. But, you know, a lot of fans, you know the fan base here. They can be impatient to say the least. And, you know, I think with the fan base,

There's a little bit of heat for Dan Quinn heading into this third season, even though his first season they ended up in the NFC championship game 60 minutes away from the Super Bowl. What would you tell, you know, Skins fans, Washington fans, about Dan Quinn going into his third year? Chill out because year two, the quarterback was third. Yeah. And that's the most important position on the field by far. you know, and hopefully he can stay healthy

and he comes back and he's healthy. You know, but no, Dan Quinn's not the problem. It's getting that quarterback health is the problem. You know, and he had a phenomenal rookie year, phenomenal.

You know, but now year two, it's just like, well, what's going on with Dan? What's going on with the team? Right. They didn't have a quarterback. I mean, plain simple. You know, so don't point the finger at the head coach.

Point the finger at the GM, you know. You got to have quality backups, you know, not just that quarterback, but any position. You know, and that's, yeah. But I think if Jayon comes back healthy, they're going to be something wrecking with now. they're going to be a good team. It's going to be a tough division. Don't get me wrong. Right. What do you think of Adam Peters? Did your paths ever cross? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I like them.

They crossed when we were young. First became area scouts. As an evaluator, I don't know for sure. You know, I know he was in San Fran. and I don't know if that's why he got the job. I have no idea. He's a good guy. Really good guy. As an evaluator, I don't know.

All right. Let's take one more break because I have not asked Scott his thoughts on that receiver out in San Francisco that has been in the news. We'll do that after these words from a few of our sponsors. If you get a chance to rate to review this show and you haven't done it. it already, it would be much appreciated. It's very easy to do. You can just click on the star count on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you're listening to this show. Five stars is the max. That's obviously the best case for us. So if you think the show deserves five stars, give us five stars. Follow this podcast as well. That's very easy to do. You just click on the plus button or the follow button.

All right, I've kept you for too long and longer than I told you, I would keep you for, but I'm going to ask you one more question because this gentleman is the topic of the last few weeks in two cities in particular. This one, D.C. and also in San Francisco, Brandon Ayuk, would you want him if you were Adam Peters and Washington after the last three weeks of, you know, videos attacking John Lynch, Kyle Shanahan, his agent, everybody else? You know, I do a thing every year with the 49ers with their draft. You know Matt Barros, Nioko. They always want to talk to me.

And I said, listen, guys, when they drafted him, I said, he is the number one receiver, talent wise. I said, but you be very, very careful with the character. Very careful. Because at Arizona State, you got in trouble. there too. You know, and Herm Edwards was a coach,

and I knew her very well. And he's like, listen, he's a wild card. We don't know if he's going to show up. We don't know if he's going to do anything. Or he might come have the best day of his career.

I'm like, okay. What he's done, from a GM standpoint, from the outside looking in, what he's done to the 49ers, is embarrassing. Embarrassing.

You know, and what you're getting in your building is going to be the same thing. It'll be good days. There's going to be bad days. You know, first year, it'd be fine. Then all of a sudden you get the comfort zone, then you better hold on. And if you have a locker room,

they can control that, then power to you. But if you don't, he'll eat you up. It's all about him. Not about anybody else. Thank you, as always. I hope you're doing well.

I know you were busy during draft season and shortly after it, but I love when you come on, even a couple months after the draft. It's always good to catch up, and hopefully we can do it again next year. Kevin, I appreciate it, buddy. Scott McCloon.