The Kevin Sheehan Show - Gary Williams and Is Rosen Out For Skins?

Episode Date: March 20, 2019

Kevin opens the show wondering if the market for Josh Rosen is on the verge of heating up. Hall of Famer Gary Williams joined the show to talk about the NCAA Tournament as a whole and specifically, he previewed the Maryland-Belmont game. Old Dominion coach Jeff Jones joined the show from Hartford where his team gets set to face Purdue in the first round tomorrow night. <p> </p><p>Learn more about your ad choices. Visit <a href="https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices">podcastchoices.com/adchoices</a></p> Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You want it. You need it. It's what everyone's talking about. The Kevin Sheehan Show. Now here's Kevin. All right, I'm here. Aaron's here. This show's presented by Window Nation. If you're in the market for Windows call 86690 Nation or go to Windonation.com and tell them that we told you to call. Gary Williams coming up and then Jeff Jones, the head coach of Old Dominion coming up as well. I've always been a big fan of Jeff. and he's got his team in the tournament, the third team that he is coached into the tournament. They play Purdue tomorrow night. Well, Maryland is set. They're going to play Belmont. I am not as confident about that one as I was on Monday after watching them beat Temple last night.

Either are the odds makers, by the way. I think they had Maryland projected to be a six-point favorite. They opened up as a four-and-a-half-point favorite. It's down to three-and-a-half, Aaron. and I think that's just a reaction to seeing Belmont play. One interesting thing about the point spread in this game or the total, I'm sorry, in this game, is it's 147, which is the lowest over-under total of the year for Belmont in any game they've played in. And it is the second highest for Maryland in three months.

It makes sense. We're going to talk to Gary Williams, and I'm going to get Gary. Williams's scout on Belmont. He'll tell you he watched the game last night. He'll tell you how you go about beating Belmont and where Maryland has advantages and disadvantages. But needless to say, they are a very well-coached offensive team with a lot of skill at almost every spot on the floor. Shooters, their best player, Wendler, who is their leading score, you know, had five points. And they were, won this game going away against Temple last night. Their big guys got good touch around the rim. Yeah, and he came in injured in the game. Yeah, he didn't play against Murray State, which was one of the reasons you probably didn't think the team was that great because he was a major factor on that team. I was just going to say that one of the reasons I was confident about Belmont is I had watched them in their conference tournament, and I guess I didn't realize that they were missing their big guy,

and I wasn't overly impressed with them when I saw them. But I was impressed. I was impressed. pressed last night. This is a team that can really score, runs great stuff offensively. The one advantage, and we'll talk to Gary about this that I think Maryland will have, is I think Belmont's going to have a very difficult time, you know, stopping Maryland from scoring, and Maryland's struggled to score this year, you know, but I think now they'll be playing a weaker defensive team than they've faced in a while, and a team that isn't necessarily familiar with them. I mean, they're going to scout them. They're going to, but God, man, the Big Ten had, you know, all of these teams had each other figured out.

But challenging first round game for the Terps tomorrow at 310, a game that I could easily see them losing. But I am, you know, I am cautiously optimistic that, you know, Belmont is going to be, you know, high off their first ever tournament win, a short turnaround for them. Maryland's got a big size difference. I think Maryland's going to be able to score more easily than they've been able to score recently. But they're going to have to really defend this team well. We'll talk to Gary Williams. He's coming up shortly. He'll give you his scout on Belmont and sort of the keys for Maryland to win that game.

On the first four overall, I mean, I watched last night because of course Maryland's playing the Temple, Belmont winner. But I got to tell you what, since this move to the 68 and 2011, These first two nights, which I think the tournament went to, you know, they went to 68 in part to create two new television nights. Yes. That they thought would be big television nights. Hey, the tournament, which used to start on Thursday, now starts on Tuesday. Well, to me, it doesn't really start on Tuesday. And it doesn't really continue tonight.

It starts Thursday at noon. That's when it starts. These games played in Dayton, and man, Dayton shows up. They get great crowds for these games, don't they? Every year. Dayton and that particular city in Ohio is a big college basketball city. U.D., University of Dayton, has basketball history, and there are a lot of basketball fans in that area, which is one of the reasons I would assume they play it there every year.

Anyway, get to Gary here shortly. Get to Jeff Jones after that. a couple of things Redskins related that I wanted to start the show with. First of all, it's Ohio State's Pro Day today. John Kime tweeted out this morning that Jay Gruden is going to be among the Redskins contingent at the Ohio State Pro Day. Obviously, they are there to see a lot of people, but Dwayne Haskins in particular, I would think,

because I think it's now becoming a possibility. I wouldn't say a likelihood, but I think more of a possibility than it was that Dwayne Haskins could fall to 15. It could happen. The reports from Field Yates yesterday, I don't know if you all read this, he tweeted out yesterday afternoon, that the Cardinals met with Kyler Murray yesterday, and he tweeted out, any team acquiring Josh Rosen in a trade would be on the hook for three years, $6.24 million, both in cash paid and total cap hits for potential starter, valuable backup. Every team should at least make a call to Arizona. And I read that tweet yesterday, somebody sent it to me on Twitter, and I read it and I thought

that in combination with the news over the weekend that the Giants weren't necessarily high on Dwayne Haskins. Maybe the Giants are higher on Josh Rosen. I think the take away of the last week anyway, which would include, at least from my standpoint, Dwayne Haskins potentially falling a little bit in terms of his draft positioning. You know, this is something all season long, I was not a big fan of Dwayne Haskins. Cooley did a film breakdown, thinks he's got high bust potential, and maybe what you're starting to see is more teams, you know, watched him in Indianapolis, and now you'll have a pro day and maybe he'll be elevated after today much higher because he will be very impressive

today. Who knows? So many things happen between now and the draft. But I think what we're seeing is unless people are in love with Drew Locke or Daniel Jones, the way to go for the Giants, for potentially the Broncos, looking for a longer term solution than Joe Flacco, potentially for Miami, and even the Redskins, that maybe Josh Rosen will be on their 2019 draft board, if you sort of presented it or strategically looked at it that way, maybe he's the next highest quarterback on the board after Kyler Murray. And if he is, then the teams that are thinking about a quarterback are going to be in competition with one another over that quarterback.

And my biggest takeaway just after yesterday and the weekend's news is there's just no way that Josh Rosen can be had for a third round pick. Remember we talked about that? People were suggesting that it might only take a third rounder or a second rounder. You know, that only happens if there's one team interested and the team trading them wants to move them. They may want to move them, but if there are more than one, if there's more, more than one team interested and potentially multiple teams, two, three, four teams interested, it's going to take a hell of a lot more than a third round pick. It's going to take more, I think, than a second round pick to get Josh Rosen. So then if you're in the Redskins position,

are you thinking that Josh Rosen is worth number 15 overall? That may be what it would take to get him. And if you don't think he's worth 15 overall, or if someone else offers a first rounder and don't think he's worth the first rounder. So Josh Rosen's now off the board. Now you are hoping that one of the quarterbacks you like drops to 15, or potentially if the guy that you like is Daniel Jones, you might be able to trade back and get him. But even that is just conjecture because the draft board as it relates to quarterbacks between now and the first night of the draft is going to change. Haskins could completely turn the tables on the recent discussion about him with a great Pro day today, Drew Locke could drop because of a bad pro day. Daniel Jones may be elevated.

You just never know how these things play out as it relates to the quarterback position. The bottom line with the Redskins from my standpoint is they've got to love a guy. If they don't love a guy, they should be trying to take a great player at 15 that they love a lot more, whether that be a defensive pass rusher, a corner, a wide receiver, they need too much help in too many areas. And if they were to go in that direction, let's just say Josh Rosen went to the Giants in a trade. And Haskin, Locke went, and Locke was the guy they liked.

Murray went, obviously they like Murray, and Haskins is sitting there, but they don't like Haskins either. Then guess what? they may not add another quarterback in this offseason. That is in play. It wasn't out of play because they paid Case Keenham $3.5 million and barely traded anything for him. But it doesn't necessarily mean that it's definitely in play either. There is a chance that we get to training camp, and it's a Case Keenham, Colt McCoy battle. And maybe the Redskins take a quarterback, you know, a Ryan Finley in the second round or somebody in the third or fourth round as a developmental guy.

That's possible. It's in play that the quarterback in 2019 will be a battle in training camp between Colt McCoy and Case Keenum. Anyway, the other thing real quickly about John Kimes's tweet is that Jay Gruden's going to be among the Redskins contingent at the Ohio State Pro Day. I think if they were in the market for a quarterback last year in the draft, Jay Gruden may have been there as well, but they traded for Alex Smith early. And so all of the quarterback talk was over on January 31st, 2018, because of the trade for Alex Smith. But I do think that, you know, going back to yesterday's conversation in the report from E.B.

of the junkies, I think Gruden's involved in the quarterback piece this year. I think that they, and hopefully they're listening to him, because I would rather have Jay Gruden's opinion on quarterbacking for his system, or any system for that matter, than the opinion of Bruce Allen, Dan Snyder, and, you know, a couple of other guys in the organization. All right. Doug's opinion matters, but I think Jay's opinion matters as well. They added Zach Karen yesterday. You probably saw that. He was a guy they added late in the year in December. December when they had all the injuries. It's a nothing deal. Just another guy to have in camp to

potentially compete for something. Also, the terms of the DRC deal are out there, and there's no guaranteed money for Dominic Rogers Cromarty. So as I thought, you know, this is not what you would call a deal that guarantees that he ends up on the roster. This is a, you know, a signing for the Redskins that gives them a chance to bring in a player who's played well at times in the past. He was retired. Didn't have any other options. No risk for the Redskins, you know, to take a look at him. And potentially he could end up being their slot corner if they don't have a better option.

But there's no guaranteed money in the deal for DRC. Also, real quickly, we had talked about, you know, some of the other guys that were out there. Clay Matthews Jr., and I suggested somebody had. had tweeted me saying, what about Clay Matthews Jr. and I said he's not going to go to a team at this point in his career that he doesn't think will win. And that happened yesterday. He signed with the Rams, signed a two-year deal to go to a team that is a true contender. And I think that's what you get with these veterans that were high price that were let go or weren't re-signed. They're going to look for a chance in their final contract, a short-term, incentive-laden deal to win. And a place that needs, you know, in his case, you know, an outside specialty pass rusher, which is, I think that's, you know, exactly what perhaps the Rams were looking for. Another thing real quickly before we get to Gary Williams, did you see what Levi-on-Bell said about Ben Rothelisberger? I saw a number of things, but.

So Bell, I guess, was introduced as a jet yesterday after the four-year, $52.5 million. deal, which so many people out there have done a really good job of just, you know, outlining the math of him not taking the deal the Steelers offered a year ago and then accepting this jet steel and what a massive mistake it was for him. Well, and also not playing on the franchise tag. And not playing on the franchise tag. So Levy on Bell, here's the quote yesterday to, I think Sports Illustrated actually. He said, Ben Rathosberger is a great player.

he's a great quarterback. He said the organization wants to win, Tomlin wants to win, Ben wants to win, but Ben wants to win his way, and that's tough to play with. Ben won a Super Bowl, but he won when he was younger. Now he's at this stage where he tries to control everything, and the team lets him get there. So if I'm mad at a player and I'm not throwing him the ball, if I'm not throwing A.B. the ball, and I'm giving Juju Smith-Schuster all to shine, or Jesse James or Vance McDonald, or whoever it is.

You know consciously you're making your other receiver mad, but you don't care. It's hard to win that way. Bell said in this interview, that was a closed quote, Bell said in the interview that Rathlisberger's presence wasn't the only factor in his wanting to leave, but yes, quote, yes, it was a factor, closed, quote. He also said about their relationship that he wishes in hindsight that he,

Levyon Bell, had been, quote, more open, more genuine, more real in his relationship with his quarterback. So he's taking some of that on his own. It's interesting the Steelers situation overall. You know, you've got two of, you know, the best players at their position, arguably the two best at their position over the last five years on a team that was a, at times unstoppable offensively in recent years. And neither one of those guys wanted to play with the quarterback. You know, more than anything else, it really would appear that that's why they're gone because the organization sided with Ben and didn't really take, you know, Brown or Bell

seriously as it related to the relationship with the quarterback. And, you know, in a division where you've got a team on the rise, Cleveland, where you have a Baltimore team that defensively was as good as anybody last year in the year before, although they're changed now defensively. But it's going to be interesting to see what Pittsburgh does. My gut is that the Steelers are still going to be a good team. I just think Ben's a great quarterback. I have been a Ben fan.

It's a debatable thing. A lot of NFL fans that I've talked to before say, Ben's overrated. He had all those weapons. I don't know, Ben to me is a damn good quarterback. He's big, he's strong, it's hard to sack him, he throws, he throws quickly. I just think Ben's a great quarterback, you know, and I think he's been that way over the course of his career. We're going to get a chance to see him this year with a different cast of characters, you know, but they still aren't lacking in talent. You still have Juju and, you know, if you think James Connor is what he was last year, then he's still a really good running back.

Neither is Antonio Brown or Levion Bell. But they are both, to your point, very good players. And we're going to get a chance this year to see James Washington, who was their pick a year ago in the 2018 draft that a lot of people liked. They also, I believe, signed Dante Moncrief. Yes, they did. I've always liked him. I have. Cooley never liked him.

And let's not forget, they had Jalen Samuels on that team last year that really started. to look good towards the end of the year, a guy that, you know, can run it and can catch it. Yeah, I mean, the one weird thing about Ben throughout his career that I've never been able to understand is his home road split. Like over the past, actually, I think he got a little better last year, but over the past like five years, he's been God awful on the road. And that makes sense when, you know, you have a dome player or a warm weather player, but I never quite understood that with Rathfusberger. That's always been the one thing about him. That's bugged me. you know, it's not just on the road against New England, you know, or teams that are really good.

They've over the years, you know, there's one team that they've sort of owned on the road in big spots, the Chiefs, you know, they just have, they, for whatever reason, have had the Chiefs number, you know, in the postseason and in big regular season games. I don't know, I don't expect personally a big, big step back for the Steelers, who are nine, six and one last year. They were 13 and 3 the year before that, before they lost that inexplicable game to Jacksonville, which was a crazy game. Remember Jacksonville, no offense, great defense, and it was a 45-42 playoff game to Jacksonville when they lost at home. I guess I would be surprised if Pittsburgh's not in the hunt to win the AFC North. I really would be without Bell and without

Brown unless there are a whole hell of a lot of other players that are now, you know, that have had the same feelings about Ben, but haven't said anything, but now that it's out in the open, it's going to create some sort of, you know, folding from within situation. I don't see it though, man. I'm not a massive Tomlin fan, never have been. You know, the biggest Steeler fan I know, Big Tony can't stand Tomlin. But those teams are always good for football teams. I'd be surprised. Anyway, what else did I have before we get to Gary Williams? Caps won last night. Good win for them. They're back in front in the division, two points ahead of the Islanders who lost last night. And how about what DeAngelo Russell did last night?

I don't know if most of you aren't following this. DeAngelo Russell had 27 points by himself in the fourth quarter, ended up with 44 overall to lead the nets from 25 down to a win over the Kings. That is quite a quarter from one player, 25 points, 27 points in a quarter from DeAngelo Russell. And that was, they were down 25 at the end of three, came back. In fact, they became just the fourth team in NBA history or since the shot clock era, which was in the mid-50s, to overcome a 25.4th quarter deficit to win a game. Anyway, that's it.

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Plus, if you buy a house of windows, you can do it for just $69 a month. That's Windonation.com or 86690 Nation and mention my name and I told you to call. All right, let's bring in Gary Williams, who's been to a few of these tournaments and now has watched a lot of them over the years. And I always like talking to him more than anybody else as we get ready for these tournaments. And, you know, I have cited something that you've said to me many, many years ago, probably 10 years ago about this tournament. And I've cited it over and over through the years.

And it's proven out to be so true. And that is, you have to be able to score to win six games in a round. row. You can be a good defensive team that struggles to score and win a couple of games, but you can't win six if you can't score. You still believe in that, right? Yeah, I do. I think that when you get to the NCAA tournament, especially after the first round, everybody plays good defense. There's a reason they're there, and part of it is their defensive intensity that they show all year. And so the teams that figure out ways to score against good defense is usually advanced.

And a lot of times they're the teams with the best players because good defense breaks down what you try to run offensively and all of a sudden it becomes being able to score just because the best player has the ball in their hands and they do whatever it takes to score. I think a Zion Williamson is a pretty good example of that. So I'm using that as a way to get into, and you've been proven right over the years.

can Virginia win the whole thing, a team that is efficient offensively but doesn't score a lot of points? Well, I think that's always been a problem for them when they get into the tournament. They get to play against teams as good as they are defensively. And, you know, Virginia plays great defense all year long. They're consistent with it that they're tough to score on. But, you know, you run into that other team. and I'm not sure Virginia ever has that one guy. They've had some really good players over the years,

but great individual offensive players because of the way they run their offensive system, they depend on balance scoring, which is good, and it gets you through the season, and you look at their record regular season, the ACC, it's the last couple years has been great. But once you get into the tournament play, and you need that go-to guy in the second half

when your offense isn't working, a lot of times Virginia struggles in a one-on-one situations because they just don't play that way, like a lot of teams do today with the screen of roles and the clear-outs and things like that. So I think it's always tough for Virginia, not saying they can't get to the Final Four, but it might be a little tougher the way they play to get to the Final Four. You know, he has, there have been some of his teams that haven't necessarily had, you know, NBA talent. but this particular team, and even last year's team, although they were missing DeAndre Hunter

because he got hurt before that UMBC game or before the ACC tournament last year, but they've got NBA talent on that team. Hunter's a first round pick. I think that guy tied Jerome and even Kyle Guy, I think both of them have a chance to play in the NBA. As you've watched him and you coached against him too, what makes him so good,

and do you agree that he has legitimate talent more so than he used to have. Yeah, I think gradually, you know, players coming out of high school look at who wins, and, you know, he's going to get better players as he continued, as Tony Bennett continues to win. So I understand that, and I agree with you. I think Guy, you know, there's times you look at Guy when he's really shooting well. He looks as good as JJ Reddick did when he played at Duke. You know, that would be the comparison I'd make with those two guys.

And, you know, the other players certainly. can be NBA players. Nobody thought Malcolm Brunrich would do what he did with Milwaukee. He was NBA rookie of the year. And Bragden, yeah. And, like, you know, I mean, those guys can play. And once again, the way they play at Virginia, sometimes they don't stand out as much as they would

if they played like an up-and-down style, you know, screen a roll every time down, that type of thing. So they get buried a little bit up, but I'm sure the NBA people, they know who the NBA players are. especially with success of some of Tony's guys, those guys are going to get seen regardless of the style of play. What's a tougher matchup for Virginia? Because I'm looking at their region, and one of the first things I noticed were teams that played in a similar way that they do, like Wisconsin, who they already played this year to a 53-48 game. But at the same time, when they played Carolina on the road, they were able to really slow them down and they won the game.

What's harder for a Virginia-style Tony Bennett-style team to play, a team like Wisconsin or a team like North Carolina? Well, I would think, you know, not to play in Carolina's easy because they're so good. I mean, they're in number one season for a reason. But stylistically. But style of play, Virginia is great at stopping transition from the offensive end. And Carolina really bases a lot of what they do on their ability. to score and transition, both after you score and after you miss. So I would think they'd rather go against a team like that than when – I mean,

there are two mirror teams. When you look at Wisconsin the way they play, and, you know, that really goes back to Tony's dad when he was the coach at Wisconsin, putting that style into play. Then Bow Ryan played the same way. Now they continue to play the same way. So they really have it down the way they like to play. They're not going to change. Wisconsin's not going to change.

and Virginia, you know, that's fine. They're used to playing close games and playing at the tempo of the other team. In other words, Virginia's not one of those teams that goes to that game thinking, well, we've got to speed up Wisconsin. We've got to press them. We've got to make them get up and down the court and, you know, that type of thing. That's not how Virginia approaches that game. They're going to match their system with Wisconsin system.

And if you don't shoot the ball well, that's what opens you up. in low-scoring games, you can't turn it over and you have to shoot the ball well. And I think that's going to be, once again, just like the first game, a very low-scoring game. Some of this conversation will lead into the Maryland conversation here shortly, but you mentioned North Carolina. And maybe it's because I've just watched so much of the Big Ten here this year, and not as much of the ACC as I used to watch. But I can't remember, Gary, a team other than,

maybe some of the Louisville teams from back in the day, the Houston team, the Faislamma jama teams, and I'm sure there are a few others that try to take the ball out of the net off of a score and push it faster down the court with tempo than this particular Roy Williams Carolina team. I mean, have you seen anybody try to play as fast as they do? Not currently. I think, you know, and what you said about watching the Big Ten this year, and then you turn on a Carolina game. It's like, you know, what's that? You know, what are they doing?

You know, what are they trying to do? It's so different than what the Big Ten, the speed the Big Ten, for the most part, plays at. And we played them in 2009 when they won a national championship. And what they do is they get the ball to their point guard after you score, and his job is to take it as far as he can. In other words, to Roy Williams' credit, he keeps it simple. He's going to run people to the three-point line.

He's going to run a big to the rim, and he's going to tell the point guard, take it as far as you can. Then if you don't have it, okay, we're going to swing it, get a back screen going, a step out, screen a roll, and try to, you know, score off of that if we can. And a lot of times you see them go six, seven minutes where they don't really set up a play. They just score out of their transition.

And, you know, teams aren't used to having to sprint back after you score. Most teams relax a little bit when the ball go through their net. Nowadays, some guys have to look around, make sure people are watching them the fact that they scored, and all of a sudden there's Carolina scoring down the other end. And that's really a strength of Carolina. I think if you look in the NCAA tournament, they're the best running team. I haven't seen everybody play, but in terms of running after you score, Carolina is the best in the country.

That 2009 game was one of the best. That was one of Gravis' best games. He had a triple double in that game, 35 points, and I don't remember what the assists and rebounds were, but it was a triple double. Does Roy run more and play at a faster tempo than Dean ever did? I think he got it all from Dean, but he's taking it to the next level.

I really believe that. Carolina did a great job of that. And, you know, the talent that Dean did have, you know, Jordans, Perkins, and Worthy, for instance, on a team, they were really good the way they played. And Carolina just seems now they're totally committed. They've made the commitment, and they're going to play that way, and it's up to you to try to take them out of it.

And I think he's taking it to a different level. All right. couple things about the draw that I wanted to get into with you on. I didn't really have a problem with the teams that got in versus the teams that didn't. How about Debbie? She wasn't real happy with NC State not making it in to the draw. But the one problem I had is Kansas as a four-seed in the Midwest region projected based on seeding to make it to the Sweet 16, where they would have literally a home court advantage in Kansas City

against the one-seed North Carolina. Do you find that brutally unfair? If you're Carolina and you've got to play a road game and the Sweet 16 is the one-seat, isn't that something that the committee's got to try to figure out how to avoid? Yeah, I think there's a body out there that a group of coaches that feel that Kansas gets, I wouldn't say special treatment, but it just seems like they wind up in a pretty good situation each year they're in the tournament.

And, you know, to be a number one seed, yeah, Kansas is a four seed, but that's one of those four seeds that based on tradition, you know, they're a lot better than that, you know, especially playing in a situation where those people worship Kansas, and they'll have all the tickets. And it's kind of ironic because it reminds me when you play Carolina in the summer, semi-finals of the ACC tournament or the finals that, you know, that's a Carolina house if it's played in the state of North Carolina. So this might be a little payback for that happening. So you won't mind if Roy and the heels walk into a road environment

I just want to see what that feels like one time, you know. All right. What about Duke? They're the consensus favorite. Do you think they'll win it? And if they don't, What kind of team beats them? Well, first, yeah, to make it easy, yeah, I think Duke's going to win it. Given their talent level, given everybody stays healthy, obviously the Williamson thing, he has to be healthy for them to be as good as they can be. I see them winning it, but I also see teams like a Kentucky, a Tennessee, maybe coming against them from the other side,

that they could be good enough to beat Duke because of their physical play. In other words, can you get Williamson and foul trouble? You haven't? I think I saw him with four fouls in one game or something like that. And those teams will attack inside. They're not afraid of him blocking shots. He'll block some shots, but those coaches, Caliperi Barnes, for example,

they don't care. They'll just tell their players to go right after him. he blocks it, that's the way it goes, and, you know, just try to wear them down with fouls or whatever. So I think physical teams could bother Duke that aren't intimidated with the Williamson playing. Michigan State's another good example. They're not going to back up. I mean, so I just look at the coaches involved in those situations. Michigan States, I think, is a little too banged up to be the best team this year. But in terms of their intensity level when they play or how hard they'll go after somebody, nobody's going to do it harder than those guys.

It'll be interesting to see how Duke reacts to that. Duke's, to me, Duke's weakness this year, if they have a weakness, is their transition defense. When Williamson's playing, they're really tough to deal with in the half court because of his shot-blocking ability, and it seems like they give the other, Williamson gives the other Duke defender's confidence to go out and overplay, because if they do get beat, he's back there, you know, playing goalie. And, you know, but in transition, they've been, they've looked bad at times, to be honest. They just don't see the ball getting back on defense, and all of a sudden teams are shooting

layups. The first game at Duke with Carolina, I think Carolina scored 66 points, 63 points in a pain, And a lot of that was transition. They were shooting layups. But that was without Williams and obviously got hurt early in that game. But at the same time, I think, you know, teams, you get in the NCAA tournament, all of a sudden you come up against Duke, you know, the number one seed. What's to lose?

You know, you might as well try to run against them and see if you can score on their end. And then I think the other thing you'll see with Duke is teams just packing it in. And in hope Duke makes their first couple three, so they keep taking them. and their ability to get the ball to the basket is just incredible. So if you can pack it in and maybe they settle for some threes, you might have a chance. You know, it's funny about that is they've got a very low, you know, three-point shooting percentage, and people have harped on that as it relates to Duke all year, that they are not shooting the three well.

But when you watch them, Trey Jones can knock down threes. You know, Barrett can knock down threes. Reddish can knock down threes. That guy, Jack White, who was supposed to be a great. shooter seems he's lost his confidence, but he's got a great stroke. It's like one of those things where if you sit back like Florida State did and you say go ahead and shoot threes, don't you think there is a chance that one of these nights Duke's going to make 14 of 27 and blow you out of the building doing it? Oh yeah, and Duke made a three to beat Florida State

by that out of bounds play. Sure, but you know, you pick your poison. I mean, you know, how would you, what's your best? I think when you go against a team like you know, what's your maybe only chance or best chance to win, and that's if they don't shoot well from the outside, probably. If there's one thing you've got to work that could win a game for you against Duke is if they're having off nights. So you gamble a little bit and hope it works. I had one other Duke question.

You know, the Carolina, that semi-final game last Friday night, I thought was just a phenomenal game. Oh, the point you made about their transition defense, I think sometimes just their defense in general, like Barrett doesn't appear to have much interest in defending when he's out there. But there are just few teams that can, you know, kill you in transition like Carolina can. And we talked about the Big Ten, but, you know, Michigan State is one of those teams that can, you know, take it out of the net and beat you back down the court.

I think that would be a tough matchup for Duke. Yeah, well, and Cassius Winston is a very good point card. He's as good as anybody out there. and he can regulate the tempo really well for Michigan State. I think Gizzo trusts him quite a bit. And, you know, the thing you look at it, like, who's not going to be afraid? You've got to get over that all. Okay, we're playing Duke.

They're the most hype team in the country every year, not just this year in terms of, you know, how the TV people look at them. And that's all you hear about. I remember when I was coaching against him, that's one of the things you had overcome. You know, the fact that, you know, you see. see Duke from November right to the NCAA tournament as this special program, the hardest place to play in the country. You hear all that all the time, and you know, you really have to get

into your players' minds to make sure they understand that, you know, it's their five versus R5. And for one, you're not playing best out of seven. You're just playing one game. So, you know, you have a chance to win that game. One more on Duke before we get to Maryland. See, this is what I mean. I know. I know. Well, you know what's funny, and I mentioned this the other day, and I think I had a conversation with Scott about it as well. You know, for all of the talk about paying players and all the conversation about Zion when he hurt his knee and the whole thing, you know, this is really a unique tournament in that we actually have a legitimate star player that people know about before the tournament starts. I said to Aaron here last week, can anybody even remember right now who the player of the year was last year? Sure, I couldn't tell you all stop my head.

It was Jaylen Brunson, you know? I would never guess that. Right, and for the last five years, so for all the people that say these players are the stars, no, the coaches, the programs, the tournament itself is the star, and it's a great marketing platform for these players. Without it, no one would know who they were. entering the NBA. I agree with that 100%.

And, you know, if they do away with it and one-and-done rule, I'd really look at that as a player because if I go to the NBA and on my first year, you know, I just go in like most, you know, great college players do. And they have an okay year, not a big deal or anything like that. Zion Williams and goes to Duke, he's probably made $100 million by going to Duke. No doubt. I really believe that. And players have to look at that.

I mean, that's what college basketball is right now. They're TV packages. Where do you see the ACC TV package that comes in with their own network next year? They're going to market every kid that goes to Carolina, goes to Duke. This star, great kid, off the court, you know, they'll be doing all these specials on these kids. It'll be amazing what happens. Yeah, I agree with you. All right, let's talk about Maryland.

They get Belmont tomorrow afternoon. Did you watch Belmont last night? Yeah, I did. I wanted to see Fran Dunphy's game. A friend had coached with me at American News, so we've stayed close over the years. And, you know, really proud of Fran what he's done with his career.

And, you know, coaching at Penn and Temple, they're not, you know, those jobs that are real glamorous or anything like that. And he's always been solid with what he's done. So it was great to watch them again. Yeah, he's always been. I've loved his teams over the years, you know, with those tough Philadelphia kids that he's had. But real quickly, before we get to just Maryland overall, what did you make of Belmont and, you know,

give me a quick scout on them? First time I've seen them play. First of all, they play hard. I was, you know, Temple plays hard. Yeah. And they were in Temple's face. I mean, they'd back up, you know, they look like some farm boys and things like that playing for Belmont. but they're not.

I mean, they're basketball players. That's, you know, just looking at Belmont, you hear about all these teams that, you know, win 26 games in these conferences, and then you see them play and you're kind of disappointed. I wasn't disappointed with Belmont at all. Plus their coach, he's been there forever. He knows what he's doing. And they run a system. It's a passing system, which is a little different in today's game,

where they depend on assists, a score, rather than. and dribble penetration to score. And they're really tough to cover. If you make a mistake, and I was watching Temple, and I think Temple plays pretty good man-to-man defense. Whenever they made a mistake, there was an open shot. Belmont didn't have a great shooting night last night, but they certainly know how to play.

And I was surprised with Belmont's big guy. It looks like he can jump about six inches off the floor, but he's got a tremendous touch off the glass. He was making right and left-handed jump hooks high off the glass. In other words, I don't know what he is, 6-9, 6-10, but he was able to shoot that jump hook really high, which means, you know, like a Bruno Fernando, for an example, there are harder shots to block because of the arc of his jump hook.

And their best kid didn't have a big scoring on last night. Yeah, their score, Wendler, you know, had five points. And the big kid that you were talking about was supposedly banged up coming in. Yeah, he had a bad ankle, supposedly. Yeah. I was impressed too, and I had watched them against Murray State because I wanted to watch that John Morant a week or so ago. And I thought that they, I didn't think that they were that good. And I watched them last night.

I'm like, oh, my God, because to your point, if you make any mistakes defensively, somebody's going to be open and they're going to be knocking down a three or somebody's going to be open for a layup. and they run real good offense. There's a sense of urgency about them with their passing and their movement. You know, you look at that. At the same time, I wasn't impressed with them defensively. Is that a weakness? Yeah, I think it would be, especially against Maryland,

because of the quickness of Smith and Fernando up front. I think that's really an edge for Maryland, you know, going to that game. The thing you said about their offense, which is interesting. They do run a pattern offense, and they have a good set offense, but they score. You know, they run it to score. Their first shot, that ball is going up. They don't mess around with the ball or anything like that. They're going to try to get 80 with their offensive tempo.

And, you know, I think defensively Maryland should be able to take them apart. I really think that Maryland can score against them, given the advantage inside with the quickness. And, you know, even the quickness, you know, of a call-ins in the back court. that that's different than what they're used to playing against and what they have to practice against. So I think Maryland has an edge. And obviously, you know, I get a kick out of the Maryland fans complaining about not knowing who they're going to play. Well, how about Belmont? You know, like their disadvantage is going into this game.

They were getting on a plane. I was watching Van Pelt last night. And the guy was on the bus going to the airport about 1 a.m. to get the plane to get down to Jacksonville. So you're going to find a team that, you know, the thing you can do in the NCAA tournament, obviously, is play with adrenaline. You don't, you know, being tired is not really something that anybody should talk

about in the NCAA tournament because it's a chance of a lifetime just to play in that thing. So hopefully the Maryland players are as excited as the Belmont players. Well, you know, since they went to 68 and they've had this first four on the Tuesday and Wednesday night. At least one of the two teams, you know, not the 16s versus 16s, but the other four teams that have played. At least one of those teams has gone on to win a, you know, a first round game on Thursday or Friday.

And my theory was that, you know, there are nerves in this tournament early on, especially in some of these very sterile environments that are very different from what you had competed in during the regular season. some of these early afternoon starts, and you get the team that's already played one game that might be a little bit more comfortable going into it. Yeah, I'm with you on that. Plus, you know, 3 o'clock in the afternoon, Thursday afternoon,

Jacksonville, how many people outside of the fans from the schools that are there are going to come to the games? Right. How many the fans from the other schools are going to get there for the start of, you know, the other team's game? Either if you play the first game, you're out getting a, beer somewhere because you want or you lost and you know you see these tournaments all the time we've all been to you know a ton of tournaments as spectators and they fans just go away after their team plays they're

they're they're i guess they're basketball fans but they're not as into it as if it was their team playing and then there's always whoever is in the arena is going to be rooting for the underdog if they're not if they're not there for the favorite so we've all seen that you know where the building turns, as we like to say. If you're the favorite and there's a loose ball and you make kind of an aggressive play going to have to a loose ball on the floor and a poor kid

on the other team that's the underdog gets squashed. The whole arena goes crazy. That's all you need. Right. All right. So on Maryland overall, I mean, we've had conversations in the last couple of months, you know, on the podcast and off the podcast. And you know this fan base.

I've lived it as a fan. as an alum also of Maryland. It can be delusional. It can be a little bit nuts at times. And I think Mark's, you know, with the fan base, feeling some heat right now, especially after that Nebraska game, which was frustrating to watch.

He's got an opportunity, Gary, though, in the next, this weekend, to win two games and to play a sweet 16 game in D.C. To totally turn the current narrative around. How does he do it? How do they do it? You know, what are there, what are you looking for that they have, you know, that they've got going for them? And what would you like to see improved?

Well, what they got going for them, they got a great draw. You know, it just, it just sometimes it works out. Sometimes you get a bad draw. Sometimes you get a great draw. The other thing is, Maryland fans have to understand, it's great to go to the NCAA tournament. In other words, you've had a pretty good year if you go to the NCAA tournament. Now, obviously, the game against Nebraska was disappointing to everybody. It was disappointing to the players.

It was disappointed to Mark, you know, I'm sure. But this time of year, you know, teams don't dwell on it. I guarantee you, Merrillum was all about the NCAA tournament. The day they got back from the Big Ten tournament. And that's the way it goes. I had games in conference tournaments that I wasn't real proud of, but we were able to come out of it usually and play pretty well. And that's the whole emphasis is how are you going to play in this game?

And nothing else matters. I mean, it's a great time of year because you can focus on everything. And I think the players, you know, they hear things. And nowadays they see so many things on the Internet about how they played and what they did wrong and all those things. And you have to use that. You have to get that chip going on your shoulder. And that was the one thing that as Maryland went through the year,

you know, when something negative was said, They didn't use that chip like they should have, you know, a lot of times. I mean, that's a great motivator when people tell you, well, you're not really that good. People say good things about you, but you're really not that good. Look how you played the last game. And Maryland should come out flying. And that's the key for Maryland. I think both halves.

If they can just play well, they don't have to play great, but play well at the start of the game at the start of the second half, I think they'll be okay. And they're talented. And they've played, you know, there are 30 games just like. like everybody else has. They have young kids, but they're not young anymore once you play 30 games. This is, you know, a little different animal when you get into March. We've talked about this before, the preference for higher possession games with the talented team versus lower possession games. He prefers clearly to play lower possession half-court

style games. So with that said, the one thing that I would love to see, if we're going to continue to play the way we play, is for Bruno Fernando, to be more aggressive and to somehow get more than four or five shot attempts a game. How do you do that? Well, the one thing Bruno has, I think you have to put some things on Bruno, like go to the offensive glass every time somebody all shoots. You know, he's not the guy supposed to be getting back on defense. That's your point guard's responsibility to get back most times to set up your drop-back defense.

And I don't see him going to the glass enough, okay? Number two for me would be, yes, he probably will be double-teamed. If he is, there's ways to beat that. Number one pass out of it to the open three-point shooter. Maryland has a good three-point shooters. So if that works fine, and Bruno's gotten to be a better passer this year. But I think sometimes he's heard too much about how much he's improved as a passer. You throw the ball into Bruno.

Here comes a double team. Bruno should be gone sometimes. he should have made his move before the double team gets there. And I think those two things, the combination of being a good passer out of the double team and being so quick that you can beat the double team, even though a team goes into the game with that plan, there are different ways to score. And I think Bruno has to do that.

The other thing he has to do is when he gets the ball at the free throw line, make sure you understand that if that guy's off of you, that's a pretty good look for him. He's a good shooter from 15 feet. not seen him pass that up a couple times in the last couple games where he's got good looks and he passes it up. I think it's more than just a couple of times. There are times when he won't even turn around and face the basket. They'll run that through him at the elbow, the free throw line extended, and sometimes he doesn't even turn and face the basket. They're not guarding him there. And to your point, he's got a great stroke. We've seen it at the free throw line. I think their offense is hurt when they run it through him in that particular spot

if he's not going to be a scoring threat. I agree. I mean, I just think, you know, you pick up a statute at halftime and he's taking three shots or four shots. Well, that can't be, you know, because he's got to be the focal point. And then, you know, for Cowans and the other Smith and Mitchell and all those, you know, they come in and that are good three-point shooters. If you don't have to play Bruno, you can get out on those guys

and take that out of their game. And I think that's happened to Maryland lately. And so you've got to shoot the ball. Whether it goes in or not, yeah, you want to make it, but at least be a threat where they have to play you. Your point about he gets the ball, say, between the top of the circle and the foul line, 17 feet, there guys are five feet off.

I'm clogging up the middle for anything Cowens was to do or anything like that. So everybody's got to do their part. Part of Bruno's responsibility is not just to be a good passer. Okay, great, you're a good passer. Well, you know, your importance to the team is you're rebounding, your block shots, your ability to score inside. You've got to figure out a way to do that. I think you made a great point, too, just that sometimes you've got to move before the double even gets there on the low post when he's doubled. And I also think, and I'm curious as to what you think. I talked about it with Tommy yesterday is, you know, he has been a better passer this year than last year, but it's not been consistently great. They haven't made teams consistently pay for

double teaming Bruno on the post. He backs up a lot rather than steps through the trap, the double. How did you coach that? Well, the thing, you've got to know where the doubles come from, and then you've got to split that seam of the two players that's on a W. And I think that's because the player that's playing you, his responsibility usually is to

keep you off the baseline if you try to spin baseline. Right. So what's the easiest way to go is to beat that guy coming down. And there's two ways teams trap. They trap, they wait until you dribble, which, you know,

Bruno should destroy because the dribble. He should be gone on the dribble by the time the double team if they do it that way, or they come on the pass. And it looks like they're coming on the pass a lot right now. In other words, while the ball's in the air being passed to Brun, that double team's already started. And that makes it tougher to split, but you can still do it. Plus, he's a good free throw shooter. By passing the ball out of the post, he doesn't get to the free throw line. The only way you get fouled down there is if you make good strong move to the basket and, you know, they foul you. And he will get fouled. So he's got to get to the line 10.

times in this game would be great for Bruno. All right. National Championship game in 2002 aside, your most memorable win as a tournament coach and your most memorable tournament loss. The win was beating Connecticut at Syracuse and the Eastern Regional because both teams were really good. We had played Connecticut earlier that year. They were young that year. and we beat them in the BB&T tournament in D.C. And I can see they were going to be really good because Calhoun obviously coaches them up and they were going to get better.

And when we played them up there, you know, that was kind of Connecticut's home court being a big East school and everything back then. And, you know, eight future NBA players are on the court. Just an incredible tempo to that game. And we never had that thing under control until we hit two big threes from Juan Dixon and Steve Blake. And that basically won the game for us.

But, you know, just a great game. Both teams played lights out. You know, it was just an up-and-down game that was, I think we scored 90 that game. 90 to 82. And it was, you know, Karan Butler went off. But you've told the story. Yeah, Karan had 26. Byron Mouton gets reminded that by the fellows every time they get together.

You've told the story a million times. I won't make you retell it about Blake coming out of the huddle and a key possession at the end. He hadn't scored yet. You know, he just happened a bad day. And like, we run this fight. We got Drew Nicholson and Juan Dixon in the corners. We got Wilcox sitting the high screen, and we got Baxter underneath.

We're going to score somehow. Blake can just get the play moving, you know, just get it moving. And plate grabs my coat in the way out. He said they're going underneath the screen of Wilcox. and I'm going to be wide open, I'm going to take it if I'm open. And the second buzzer goes off. You know, you couldn't do anything about it. He made it, to his credit, he made it.

Well, you know, he made some big shots. I mean, the tournament the year before when you lost to Duke for the third time in the ACC tournament, you know, he hadn't scored a lot in that game, and he hit the game tying three there before Nate James had the tip in, and then Dixon almost had a, you know, a half-court shot that went in a buzzard. Yeah, he rid that thing from half of course. But yeah, that Yukon game was phenomenal. What about the most devastating, most memorable loss?

I mean, I know what it is for me, but go ahead. Yeah, it was the game against Michigan State in Spokane because, once again, Vasquez, and people should ever, when you look at Maryland basketball over the years, you know, going back through lefty, you know, myself, whatever, nobody ever gave to a team any more than what Vasquez gave to that 2009-2010 team because he brought us up from you know we wouldn't have Dino Gregory the first semester which you know still obsessed me but I don't want to get into that that.

That might have to do with an athletic director we won't go down that back. It had a lot to do with an athletic director and a personal vendetta. But anyway, what What he did, we gradually got better. We won our last seven league games. He had an incredible shot against Duke to basically win that game to tie us with Duke for the regular season thing. So we were good. Going into the NCAA that year, I thought we had a shot to get to the Final Four.

I really did. So now we won our first game. Now we're playing Michigan State in Spokane. And Michigan State's good. They got green and, you know, Lucius, some pretty good players, you know, on their team like they always do have. And, you know, we get down 15 to second half, and Vasquez just wills us back. I mean, he scored 10 points in the last minute and, you know, five seconds, 10 seconds of that game against a good defensive team.

And so we finally get ahead, you know, they bring it in with like, I don't know, seven, eight seconds left. And we, Adrian Bowie did a great job of walling them off down the sideline right in front of Izzo. And you can see Izzo trying to call timeout in tape. And he has no timeouts left, but the referees shows not. not to, you know, honor the Chris Weber type timeout. And so they throw it to the top of the circle.

We have a guy, which I won't mention, was just kind of standing there, kind of froze in the moment, which happens sometimes. Land in Millmore. All he had to do was take a step, and that ball was his or at least a deflection when the game was over. And the kid that the ball was thrown to decided to duck

didn't want the ball in that situation. Yeah, and nobody ducks. You know, you throw a, you roll a ball a six-month-old kid, and they'll cross their hands and try to catch it and make a move, you know, with her, it's just instinct of it. So this kid ducks, and here comes Lucius walking in, and bombs a three from the top of the circle.

Two weeks later, Lucius is out of school. He's thrown out of school. So just put a little churry on the whole thing, you know. I mean, have you ever talked to Izzo about that? Oh, yeah. You know, I talked to I a couple days ago, in fact, when they were on the way to the Big Ten tournament, and, you know, he reminds me of that.

I remind him of the game in the garden when we beat him up there and some things like that. But he's got me, too, because in 2004, in 2003, we missed an open jump shop from the top of circle, like Lucius made to beat us in that game. It was Steve Blake, who's who, you know, was a NBA point guard for 13 years after that. And, you know, we would have gone to the elite in that, in that, tournament too. But, you know, Tom is one of those guys that works hard. His teams play. They reflect his personality, and they get after you every game you play against. They might not always be pretty, but they're always good. You know, the thing about that 2010 season, which was

just so much fun, is just the way you got hot at the end of that season. And you had, you know, you had some memorable games down the stretch, not just the memorable game, which was the Duke game to win the ACC regular season title, which I'll tell you what, if anybody forgets what that building was like, that game's available on YouTube. I don't think I've ever been in a more electric environment for a basketball game than that night against Duke for the regular season title. But, you know, you had that memorable game in Blacksburg, where Bravis had 41 in double overtime. You know, the comeback against Clemson and the Cliff Tucker, you know, God rest his soul, you know, game winner against Georgia Tech.

There were just so many exciting games. And the thing, Gary, about that 2010 tournament is the whole bracket opened up for the Michigan State Maryland winner to make a deep run because I think it was Northern Iowa was next. And then maybe it was Tennessee and Michigan State ended up in the final four. Yeah, there was a big upset. Kansas got, I think it was Kansas. Yeah, Northern Iowa. time, yeah, at the same time we were playing Michigan State, in fact, and so we would have played a good with Iowa, and all of a sudden you're in the elite eight, and you know, you take your chances

with that. I mean, that's pretty good, and, you know, you would have played Tennessee to get to the final four, right, the way it worked out. So we were as good as Tennessee back then. You know, the interesting thing about the two Michigan State tournament losses, the one that you mentioned in 2003, you know, which started with the Drew Nicholas game winner against Wilmington, and then you guys beat Xavier and then ended up losing in the Sweet 16. In both of those games, you were down like 15 in the second half and roared back to take the lead. And then ended up losing basically at the buzzer. And, you know, in the first one in the Sweet 16 game in 2003,

I think they got a bucket with like five seconds, six seconds left to beat you. Yeah. You know, we had heart. You know, that's the best way I can describe it. You couldn't kill you. You know, we might not lose, but we weren't going to die. You know what I mean? We weren't going to die on the court.

We were going to make it run. And I knew that. The players knew that. And I think our fans knew it. Our fans were great back then because I think they really believed in us that we were going to come out on the court and give it everything we had. And whatever that was, if it was good enough, then the fans could help us win that game. And I think we all felt a part of each other during that time. You know, quick funny story, and I think he's probably told you this story.

But that Michigan State game, in 2003, when you went down 17, Van Pelt stopped watching the game. True story. Because I call him, when you came back and tied it up, I'm like, can you believe this? And he's like, what are you talking about? And I said, you're not watching? He goes, no, I was so angry, I turned it off. And then he quickly turned it on right in time for the Michigan State game winner to beat you. But that's a true story.

So the next time you talk to him, you've got to tell him, you should have never turned the game off. We were playing golf together one time, and he wasn't hitting it real well. And all of a sudden, Scott was walking along with the other three guys. He decided not to continue to participate. Yeah, we've seen that before with him. He gets very angry. All right. What about, oh, one more sort of, you know, going back to memories.

The Michigan State one is the most painful for all of us, I think. The Corey Lucius shot. How disappointed were you, though, in the loss to St. John's when you had Steve Francis and that team, God, people were excited about that team, and you're running to Ron Arte's in the Sweet 16. Well, I was really disappointed because I thought we were good enough once again. You know, you judge your teams, and it's not just the two teams that went to Final Four. You look at some other teams and you said, we might have been as good as those teams that went to the Final Fours.

And that Steve Francis team was one of them. I think the score was 1918, and Francis had a breakaway, and he jammed it underneath the rim. He didn't even get over the rim, and nobody jumped better than Steve, you know, and what happened in that situation. Then I think St. Johns ran off 18 or 19 straight points, and that was the game. and Artes and Eric Barclay was another really good player in that team. He played the NBA several years as a point guard. When it happened to us, I never make excuses.

What did happen was Abina Akisie tore his Achilles tendon with about a week left in a regular season. And Lonnie Baxter was a freshman, not in the shape that Lonnie Baxter or the player he became, but he came in and he tried as hard as he could, but he wasn't Abina Kesey who went on to play in the NBA for six years. I thought maybe he could have neutralized our test a little bit, but we had no answer for our test, just to be honest, in that game.

I just had a thought. You know, all the heat from the fan base that Turgeon's taken. I don't even know if he's paying attention to it or not. I think he has a sense of how demanding and the high expectations and sometimes the unfair expectations that the Maryland fan base has. But have you talked to him just about ever? I'm just curious about what we just talked about. The 99 lost to St. Johns when the fan base all thought that was a final four team.

And, you know, the loss to Florida State at home in 2001, the year you ended up going to the final four. And some of the things that you went through before breaking through and getting to the final four in 2001. The only, you know, we see each other once in a while, and, you know, I don't coach now. You know, I don't try to coach now, you know, whatever. There's, you know, I want the players to get mad. I want myself to be mad. I want to play mad at times because I know how hard we tried. And, you know, Mark knows how hard his team works and things like that.

And it's okay. When you put a lot of time into something, And it doesn't look good, and it's a thing you do that's very open. You know, everybody can make judgments, and everybody knows the game a little bit, at least. And, you know, they all have their opinions. So you're going to get that. So you have to use that as a positive somehow. And, you know, people that say, well, I don't listen to it.

No, we're human beings. Everybody hears certain things. And so what you try to do is you try to come into practice and say, okay, it's all about us. You know, it's just us. If they don't like the way, you know, that's fine, but we're going to really show everybody just how good we really are. And I've always tried to be like that. And I think one of the good things we did is a program, we were able to come back from tough losses. You know, we were always able to come back.

And that was the way we basically did it. We just said, okay, they don't think we're any good. And that's our own fans. Okay, we'll show them. And we'd walk out in the court and, you know, those same fans that were so critical, they'd be really happy when we played well. That's what you have to do. No, I, you know, I'm not saying this because we're sitting here having this conversation,

but it's so true about you. There was just nobody in the history of this town as a coach that was better when, you know, the perception was that you were backed into a corner. And it just, it was, it became one of those things that I think we all expected that if you had a bad loss, the game before, look out the next game, or if you're down 15 at halftime, look out in the second half. And it was just always one of those hallmarks of your teams. On this bracket, and we'll wrap it up with this, who do you have in the final four?

Who do you have winning it? Well, the final four. I caught you off guard. Do you have you? No, I've got a right here. Have you even filled out a bracket? Yeah, I have. Okay.

I laugh at it, you know, like everybody else. Of course. The tournament was on. But, you know, I really think that Tennessee is going to be a good tournament team this year. I have them playing Kentucky to get to the final four from that side, and I think Tennessee is going to beat Kentucky. So they would play each other in the final four? Yeah. Okay.

Tennessee. Yeah. So you got Tennessee beating Virginia. I would assume. Yes. And Kentucky... I think their physical play in Kentucky's Kentucky. I think they're good.

And you'd like them in a matchup against Carolina. Yeah, I would because they're going to take away Carolina's offensive rebounding, which is a big part of Carolina's success, their ability to not just get balls, but to tip them back to their guards. They're really good at that. And I think they're physical enough to keep that from happening. But who knows? You know, but, you know, you can't pick Caroline.

What are you going to pick the four number one seats? You can't do that. All right. So what about the other side of the bracket? The other side of the bracket is I've got Duke in Florida State, believe it or not. And I think Duke will beat Florida State, but, you know, that's just, you know, me. You know, I think Florida State is a scary team when they play. They're not very good when they don't play.

but I'll say they're winter will have him make a five-game run this year. He's amazing, isn't he, that he's been there that long. You know, last year was really their first breakthrough year getting to the Elite 8. The talent that he's had at times, the unique talent in that its size, its length. But then again, like over the years, you can count on them to lose a game that you sort of felt like they should have won in the tournament. But you got them into the final four. which would be his first. Yeah, and I think, you know, the guys coached a long time with good teams,

and, you know, sometimes it's just your turn. And, you know, it's, you know, it's an outside pick, but at the same time, I haven't, I've never picked the Final Four correctly anyway. No, nobody has. So who wins it, Duke? Yeah, I think Duke wins it. If everything goes, you know, Duke has the player, Williamson. It's the best player.

Best player wins a lot of times. All right. I always appreciate this. My intention is never to keep you as long as I just kept you, but we just start rambling and it ends up this way. And I thank you for that. It's good for me, too. I enjoy talking to the game.

All right. I'll talk to you soon. Thanks. All right. Thanks. I don't know how long we just had Gary on because it flies by every time we have them on, Aaron. But I always enjoy the conversations.

And, you know, the great thing about Gary, you know, know, is, first of all, however old he is, he looks 30 years, 20 years younger, every bit of it, and he doesn't forget anything. I mean, he's got such a great memory for all of the games he coached. He's got so many friends in coaching, you know, talked to Izzo last week on the way to the Big Ten tournament and has a really good feel for this right now. I bet he misses it. I think he does a lot coaching the competitor that he is. But I'm glad we got sort of a Belmont scout from him. I'm fearing that game a little bit tomorrow at 3 o'clock. Like I almost feel like the LSU game might, it's not that you're playing a better team or a more talented, I'm sorry, a lesser team or a less

talented team if you get through to LSU or Yale. But man, the Belmont style, I think, Maryland's going to score against, but I think they're going to have, and Maryland's a good defensive team, but it's one of those games you can just see, those guys passing it, zipping it around, the open man's wide open. On one possession, they're getting a layup on the next, they're getting a wide open three, and all of a sudden, you know, it's 62 to 52 with eight minutes to go, and Maryland's calling a timeout to stop the momentum. I always think, unfortunately, I think I always, you know, think the worst case,

when it comes to my favorite teams, but they can win this game. They're favored to win it, not by as many as I thought they would be. I mean, you should love it. Everyone's on Belmont right now, so you should love the Terps. You know what?

I haven't even looked at that, are they? I think Belmont's... I think, boy, almost every expert bracket I've seen has Belmont going over. That is true. Almost every single expert out there. You know, all of these, you know, pick your most likely upsets.

Belmont over Maryland, has been a favorite for many. Real quick word about launch workplaces. Launch workplaces is a fully furnished office setting. They've got a beautiful new space in Bethesda. So if you live in that area, Bethesda, Chevy Chase, Upper Northwest D.C., and you don't want a long commute to work, you may be working from home or you're looking for new office space, check out launch workplaces in Bethesda.

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Call today for an exclusive free two-day trial. 240-86714, 240-6714, or launchworkplaces. Let's bring in Jeff Jones, the head coach at O'DU. They won Conference USA

both the regular season and the league's post-season tournament. They beat Western Kentucky in the final. They're a 14 seat in the South region, and they're playing third-seated Purdue tomorrow night in Hartford. Jeff Jones has always been one of my favorite coaches, and he's going to be coaching against one of my favorites in Matt Painter, who I've always thought was very underlooked in the conversation of great coaches in college basketball. Jeff's done it at every level.

He's taking his third team to the NCAA tournament. Not many coaches have done that. And Jeff, you know, a lot of us who grew up as ACC fans and live locally here in D.C. have followed your career for decades, you know, going back to those great UVA teams with Ralph Sampson and Jeff Lamp that you played on. I think you know I've been a fan of yours over the years. And you and I've done a couple of shows together when you haven't had tournaments, teams in the tournament, you know, this time of year. And I wanted to start with this before we get to basketball, because I know a lot of people have been following this and wishing the best for you. Jeff, for those of you who don't know, has been battling prostate cancer this year, a recurrence of it.

How are you feeling? How are you doing? I'm feeling great. I'm doing well. You know, just trying to deal with all the stuff. You know, the side effects are actually on a day-to-day basis a lot worse than the actual cancer is. But it's been a great year in a lot of ways. It's been tough with the health concerns, but I'm feeling good. I'm excited about this opportunity that we have and I can't wait to get out there tomorrow. Well, we're all wishing you the best on that front. On Sunday night, when the selection show puts Old Dominion up on the board opposite Purdue, you know, in a game in Hartford on Thursday night, what's the process that happens for you? I mean, you've got to put together, you know, a plan for Purdue and you got people in the in the athletic

department, I'm sure, and in the school, that they've got to deal with all the logistics of travel, et cetera. Take us through, you know, the few hours, you know, and maybe on Monday, after you know where you're going and who you're playing. Well, you know, we had a watch party, and most of the team barely made it back. Our flights from Frisco, Texas, back to Northwick on Sunday originally had been canceled. So we had about... five different flights where we had, you know, some players and some administrators and some coaches. So we roll in. We got to watch party. And as soon as our name came up, you know, like I'm done with us. We're watching the thing on TV. But we had to sit there immediately after everything

ended there, you know, we're going about trying to secure game film, talking to people both in the Big Ten and who played Purdue in the non-conference. as you said, the logistics. You know, that's something our ops guy, Kieran Donoghue, you know, was meeting with all the business people. And, you know, you got to figure out tickets and you got to figure out transportation and meals and, you know, all that different stuff. So everybody already kind of knew ahead of time what their responsibilities were going to be. You know, we got together the film so that by Monday morning we actually had an initial scouting report ready for both the staff and then the place. players when they came in a little bit later that day. So it was a busy night, not a whole lot of

sleep Sunday night, but that enabled us to be very productive, I think, on Monday. Just out of curiosity, do you guys record a bunch of games during the course of the year with potential, you know, an idea of potential, you know, somewhere between two and four-seeded teams late in the year? Or do you get sent film on Purdue? Or do you get sent film on Purdue? Or, Have you watched Purdue during the course of the year? I know you're a big sports fan and a huge basketball fan. You know, surprisingly, I don't watch college basketball very much during the season. I get enough watching our own team.

So I don't do that very much. I've seen glimpses of Purdue. And I 100% concur with your evaluation of Matt Painter. I absolutely think he is one of the most underrated coaches. The job that he does at Purdue year in and year out, you know, and obviously they've got terrific players, but they're not getting the one and done guys. You know, the guys that everybody hears about coming out of high school, he does a fantastic job.

So, you know, I knew all of that going in, but being able to see them in a different way and watching the film and the breakdowns and, you know, kind of their sets and how they're trying to get their guys shots, you know, that really wasn't until, you know, Sunday night had been a Monday morning. Is there a team they played during the course of the year that mirrors your style? You know, Purdue and the Big Ten's a little bit different in that they don't mind getting up and down the floor, you know, with Carson Edwards leading the way where a lot of Big Ten teams, Maryland's one of them, likes to play a grind-it-out style. I know you're more of a defensive team than you are offensively. Do you look for a comp, a Purdue?

opponent that compared to your team? You know, I think you look for that, but you're not too worried about that. I mean, if you get enough of the film, you know, you can figure it out. And getting back to your question, at American, we used to copy a lot of games during the course of the season. We don't at Old Dominion. The technology has improved that, you know, you can download stuff online. There's services and different things.

So it's really literally at your fingertips to be able to get the film. So we don't do the taping of the games during the regular season, maybe the way we did, you know, 10 years or so ago. Tell us about your team, Jeff. I know you've got some really good senior guards. We do. You know, I think that probably the strength of our team and what everybody notices is,

there are a Mike Kaver who's probably our best all-around player. He is our point guard, second leading score at about 16 points a game at the top of our league in assist. Top of our league in assist in turnover ratio. An excellent, excellent defender. He very easily could play at a Power 5 program, a successful Power 5 program and be the starting point guard. BJ Stiff, son of Bryant Stiff, who played for me at Virginia, is our leading score, was player of the year in the conference, and is also our leading rebounder. He, you know, has had an excellent year.

We really need – BJ struggled shooting the ball throughout the conference tournament. We really need BJ to be in rhythm and to be able to knock down some shots because our basketball team, as you've alluded to, we're pretty daggone good defensively. We rebound the ball, we compete. We're offensively challenged.

That's a really nice way of saying. We struggle to score at times. If we're going to have a chance against Purdue, we've got to make some shots. And it'll be a mod cave, or it'll be BJ Stiff. And then the third guy in the back court is Xavier Green, who is a sophomore, really, really talented kids, 6-6, very athletic, just came off of being the MVP of the conference tournament. He's got a chance of being really, really good. I mean, he's a guy that has pro talent.

You know, it's too early to say whether, you know, he's a legitimate pro prospect, but he definitely has that kind of talent. So those three guys all have to play well if we're going to have a chance. Old Dominion beat Syracuse on the road earlier this year, also beat Virginia Commonwealth back in the early portion of the season. You mentioned it, and I think it's a funny way to describe it, that you can be offensively challenged. You know, the debate, and not that you've been following it,

but I'm just curious from a coach's perspective, when it comes to Maryland this year, they've struggled to score at times too, and they've preferred to play a lower possession game, a slower style. And I've always said, man, when you're struggling in the half court, you've got to figure out a way to not face set defenses. It's just easier if you can rebound and get it out and run.

Is that something you think about as a lower scoring team offensively challenged? And in general, what's your theory just on, you know, there are a lot of teams as you look at the tournament that struggle to score, that will go through scoring droughts at times. How do you deal with that? Well, number one, we try to make sure that defensively and in all the areas that we can have maybe more control over that we're really, really good. Taking care of the ball, rebounding the basketball, you know, 50-50 balls and getting more possessions.

I think people would be shocked because, you know, we only average 66 points a game. And there are rival recruiters that, you know, we'll try to take some of these numbers and say, oh, they're walking the ball at the floor. I challenge you. Find a possession where we walk the ball down the floor. It doesn't happen. Every chance we get, we're running. We just don't score it at a high level.

But you're exactly right. For us, we don't want to play in the half-court level every time down. Now, you've got to be able to execute and hopefully do a good job. But when you're forced into those situations, but for us, whether it's off a feel or a rebound or whatever the situation may be, every opportunity we can. We want to try to get into the open court. It's just that we want to make sure. we put so much emphasis on our defensive transition, we want to make sure that our opponents

have to play in the half court, have to face a set defense, because we feel like we can be that much more effective if we do that. It's a lot harder guarding the team in the open court than it is if you get your defense back and what we call build the wall. But every chance we get we want to run because it's just harder playing against a set defense. And when you struggle to score anyway. Even if you get four, six, eight, ten points in unsettled situations or open court situations, that can be huge in the amount of tight games that we play. Somebody told me earlier today, I think we were, what, seven, seven and three in games that were decided by five points or less, something like that. So we've played a lot of close games,

and we've been successful in those games. Real quickly on Purdue, you know, as a Maryland guy, I now watch a lot of Big Ten. I'm not happy about it. I miss the days of the ACC. Yeah, that's a shame. That still sounds,

that just doesn't sound right. It doesn't sound right, and I think a lot of Maryland alum and Maryland fans feel the same way, but I've seen a lot of Purdue this year. You tell me, what are the challenges with them? Well, as we are talking about, They're extremely well coached.

You know, offensively, they come at you hard. They really shoot the three. They're very efficient. They spread you out. They force you to guard different actions, but they really shoot well, and they shoot a lot of threes. Carson Edwards is obviously the headliner for them. Average in 23 a game has virtually, I mean, a green light.

I mean, he will shoot it at any time and from anywhere. But they've got guys like Ryan Klein, who's their two guard, and Eifford, who's their their foreman and harm, who is their seven foot two center, you know, that are talented. No Joe Eastern is a 6-6-2-20 pounds. Yeah, athlete. Yeah, and, you know, he doesn't shoot jump shots, but he just, you know, and they've got just different guys off the bench, some young talented kids. And so, you know, you've got to account for all of them, but Edwards is the guy that's

the big score and the one that you definitely have to account for it at all times. You know, for much of the season in the Big Ten, he looked like he was headed towards the Big Ten player of the year. But, man, he had some horrific shooting performances. And you're right. I mean, he's got a green light to shoot it whenever he wants. He's had, I think he's had multiple games of, you know, between 25 and 30 attempts, you know, from the field in which he's, you know, in some of these games, he's not shot even 20% from the floor. but he's capable, isn't he? He is.

I mean, you know, he's one of those guys. You know, he could be in the midst of having a bad shooting game, and then all of a sudden, he gets it going. And because of the shots that he takes sometimes and because they run such good stuff, when he gets it going, you know, it's hard to slow him down. So the only thing I know of is just to make sure that we're consistent, that we're there on the catch, and make him work.

You know, and he starts getting in, you know, one of those stretches where he's making everything, I'm not sure there's a whole lot that we can do about it. All right, I'll let you run here in two minutes. You've been in the tournaments, you know, many times as a player, as a coach at Virginia, you know, at AU twice, and now taking a third team as a coach to the tournament. What's your most memorable tournament moment as a player or coach? You know, certainly beating Kansas.

Kansas was the top seat when we beat them in Kansas City when I was at Virginia in 95. I think it was. That was a great memory. But ranking up there, I don't know about best or whatever, but right there would be finally breaking the threshold, crossing the threshold and getting AU into the tournament for the first time in school history. We've been to three championship games before that. We'd had some really good seasons and, you know,

kind of lost at the buzzer in the last few seconds. That first year at American University was really, really, you know, special. It was a special group, and it was just such a huge relief to finally, you know, get there. There were some very happy people over there on Wisconsin and Mathab, yeah. Yeah, that had dreamt of that moment. So that was really, really special. I'll tell you what, that 95 Virginia team that you had that beat Kansas and then you lost in Nolan Richardson and Arkansas and that Elite 8 game was such a fun team to watch with, you know,

Corey Alexander and John Crotty and Junior Borough. You know, he's still in the area, I think. I don't know where, or he was for many years helping kids out in the area, but that was, those were some good teams and some well-coached teams, man, at UVA. And I wish you the best with everything, Coach, and especially tomorrow night against Purdue, I think a lot of us that have followed your career will be watching that one closely. Best of luck, and thanks so much for the time. Thanks. I appreciate it. And who knows, maybe next time I'm up in D.C., you and I might bump into one another, wagshawls. Exactly. I think that happened a couple of times. I think that did.

Well, that was right down the street from AU. So I look forward to that. All right, take care. Good luck tomorrow night. All right. Thank you. Jeff Jones, everybody. He's such a good guy. Such a good guy, such an excellent coach. And, you know, just pray for him because he has been ill and he's been battling through this all year long. And, you know, people that have watched a lot of Old Dominion. games say you would never know it. But, you know, he mentioned it there at the very beginning that sometimes the side effects of medication, et cetera, are worse than the cancer itself. But he is a guy to root for.

He has been such a good college basketball coach over a long period of time and did a great job at Virginia in his first job when he replaced Terry Holland way back in the day. And really, you know what, Virginia, they've become this powerhouse here under Tony Bennett. It's really amazing what Virginia's become here in the last five years, like a perennial top five team, top 10, top five team, haven't broken through in the tournament, obviously. Maybe this is their year. I picked them again for the second straight year to win the whole thing. But, you know, Virginia has always been in the ACC one of those programs that before Tony Bennett got there, you wondered why they weren't more successful. And you had to go back to the Jeff Jones era.

in the 90s to find the last time they had had, you know, consistent success. And Tony Bennett's now got that thing going. But I'm rooting for Jeff Jones. I do think that that is one of the real good coaching matchups in the first round of this tournament. Interesting, and I was glad to hear him say the same thing. I've said that about Matt Painter for years. I think he's just been so underrated at Purdue. And I think some of those teams, Aaron, remember the Robbie Hummel teams that he had?

Of course. And Hummel had the torn ACL that one year. I think if Hummel had been healthy throughout his career, I think Purdue may have made a Final Four there, and more people would know Matt Painter because of it. But you heard Jeff Jones, he feels the same way about it. Last thing, before we go, I had no idea that the Major League Baseball season opened up last night.

I woke up this morning, and the Mariners are playing, you know, Oakland in Japan. That was an actual regular season game. That was a regular season game. The Mariners are in first place in the entire baseball. Okay. Why so much earlier than opening day? Yeah, it's strange. They used to do this fairly about a decade ago.

But not a week before. No, it wasn't a week. It was usually a few days before. I think actually there were some complaints about that that teams just couldn't quite get back into shape. So that's why so early. But the weird thing is they didn't really, like I'm a big baseball guy. they did not publicize this.

I knew it was coming up, but it wasn't until yesterday or the day before, really, that I realized, oh, this is happening this morning. Yeah, right? I mean, there wasn't a lot of publicity about this. No. I mean, I guess if you're, you know, you are a baseball guy, and even you said that.

Anyway, yeah, the Mariners won the first baseball game of the year, and now we've got to wait. I guess we're going to wait a week in a few days for an actual real opening day with everybody playing, or is there another game in Asia? I think there's a second game tomorrow. Oh, a second game tomorrow. Between these two teams and then, yeah, next Thursday is Nats opener.

Okay. Tonight, St. Johns, who I have winning two games in my bracket, plays Arizona State. And they are getting a point and a half. And I like St. John's tonight as a strong lean. I will have my official smell test for Thursday, and then I'll have another one for Friday, and I'll do it over the weekend as well. The Smell Test will be back here for the NCAA tournament. But I would give out St. John's plus the point in a half tonight as a strong lean.

Not an official smell test pick, all right? But I personally will have St. John's tonight plus the point in a half. Tomorrow's show Smelt, you know, Maryland Belmont preview. Van Pelt. Coolie's going to be on the show tomorrow as well. because we'll do some Redskins tomorrow, and we're going to try to get the show out earlier tomorrow so that you can try to consume it before the whole basketball day starts.

Have a great day. Back tomorrow.