The Kevin Sheehan Show - Goodell On Snyder: "He Has Been Held Accountable"

Episode Date: October 27, 2021

Roger Goodell on behalf of the NFL said the findings of the Beth Wilkenson report would not be released and stated that Dan Snyder "has been held accountable". Kevin welcomed long-time Williams-Connolly attorney and former US Ambassador to Belgium Howard Gutman on the show today to discuss/recap the comments yesterday from Goodell about the many Washington Football Team situation(s). Also, Kevin on one of the biggest regular season games in Washington history 30 yrs ago tonight against the Giants.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Cheehan Show. Here's Kevin. The podcast today presented by Direct TV stream. Get your TV together with the best of live and on demand. Learn more at DirectTV.com.

We're starting the show today with a guest and a friend, Howard Gutman, the many-year ambassador under Barack Obama's presidency, to Belgium, has been on the show before Howard's become a friend over the years, a listener to the podcast and the radio show and a huge, a huge DC sports fan. And we've had Howard on before just with compelling stories. I remember the first time you came on the podcast, how much incredible feedback there was to it. But I asked you sort of last minute, so I appreciate you coming on, to come on today to talk about everything that happened at the league meetings.

yesterday. And just to summarize for everybody, before we get to Howard's reaction, for those that missed it, Roger Goodell, league meetings yesterday in New York, lots of the conversation was about the Washington football team and the Beth Wilkinson investigation and whether or not the league would be more transparent and release the findings or release the, you know, report, which there isn't a written report of. There were two things that the commissioner said, specifically that were interesting with respect to his position and the league's position. First of all, he did say that they're not going to release anything more. And he emphasized the security and privacy and anonymity of the people who participated in Beth Wilkinson's investigation.

And then when talked about or when asked about, specifically about the accountability of Dan Snyder. Goodell said, quote, I do think he's been held accountable. I think the organization has been held accountable. I think we've given an unprecedented fine. Dan Snyder has not been involved with the organization for now almost four months. And we obviously are focused more on making sure that policies will be maintained and that we can ensure that will happen with this organization, essentially.

saying that the protocols and policies that were put in place will prevent any of this from happening again. But him saying that the organization and Dan were held accountable and mentioning that Dan had not been involved with the organization for now almost four months was a bit of a reveal. He didn't go to the lengths of calling it a suspension. But Howard Gutman joins us now. And I thought about you this morning and thought about calling you super early to have you on the show. but I didn't want to do that. So let's do it here on the podcast. What did you make of how Roger Goodell

handled the onslaught of questions yesterday from reporters about the situation here? So, Kevin, first, this doesn't come from my ambassadorhip for Obama, nor am I being a fan, but for my 27 years as a leading Washington attorney, including years back when Ed Williams on the team, I worked at Williams and Connolly. So when Edward Bennett Williams owned the team,

working as a counsel for the team, I've known Jeff Pash, the general counsel of the NFL is a buddy of mine since 1977, the first day of law school. And then Beth Wilkinson and I co-counseled criminal cases as far back as 2000. So I kind of know the players and a bit of what they're in. And Goodell tried his best.

And I know the plane of sexual harassment. are Lisa Banks and Deborah Katz, and I've had cases against them. So this is a predictable pattern, and I'm sure my buddy Jeff Pash was telling Roger Goodell just talk about putting things in place for the different clubs to make sure that going forward, the league has sexual harassment protection and that things are on a good footing. But Goodell slipped twice, and it's a major problem. First, how did he get in this mess? Well, Lisa Banks is trying to maintain lawsuits against the club.

I imagine she did not get the discovery she needs to prove the pattern of sexual harassment to the level she needs. But you know if you can get those emails coming out, you basically have, what are NFL front offices? They are NFL locker rooms, which were fraternities, and then they got older, but they didn't necessarily mature. So emails with new pictures on it or emails with things that we would say is not the woke culture today or not politically correct, they're going to be there everywhere and a plaintiff's lawyer will have a field day. And it won't only be with the Redskins, it will then flip, I guarantee you, to the Patriots. Do you think Robert Kraft or Jerry Jones look much better? The coaches there will also be a problem.

So the league consists of 32, basically rich white men or the daughters of rich white men in Benson's case, who are doing their best to protect the most valuable franchise because of their product. And they would like to say they know they get it. They get it today the way out, Franken gets it today, and the way, you know, that it's a different culture. You don't compliment people's dress. You don't hug anymore. They get it. They'll get it clean going forward.

They'll have their fun elsewhere if they ever regard that is fun, but they don't want it unraveling looking backwards. And that's what Roger Goodell needed to avoid, and he made two major slips. All right. Name the two major slips. First, he said the reason we didn't have the Beth Wilkinson report is to protect the victims. I guarantee you pass passed out on the floor and they've been trying to revive him since because that just Lisa Banks will now have victim by victim saying, I want it released. Right. And he had gotten his tampered down.

The Danny got rewarded. He got his minority shareholders knocked out. He got the lead to lend him the money to take over the club. He was in stronger position, and this had died down until the John Gruden, Bruce Allen emails came out. And then that's when Deborah Katz and Lisa Banks for the opening, maybe we still have a shot at getting to these emails, and they decided to use the league meeting to put pressure.

And then if you just said, look, we're not releasing them because we're looking forward, it would have ended. Once you said we couldn't release it to protect your clients, Lisa Banks is going to eat Roger Goodell, you know, start on the seat and go to the top of the head because they're not doing this to protect Lisa Banks' clients. They're not doing it to protect the women who were brought these allegations. They crossed that line already, those women, when they hired lawyers and decided to go forward. That's number one.

Before you get to number two, I want to stick with number one. There's another mistake that Roger Goodell made yesterday that you want to focus on. And I do want to get to number two. But I want to start with number one. A couple of questions. First of all, do you believe Roger Goodell that the people, that stepped forward to be interviewed for the Beth Wilkinson investigation did request anonymity? I believe certain ones did. Obviously that $1.6 million settlement involving the airplane,

that one's been tampered down for a long time. That person probably wants to move on and have anonymity, but you could have released the report without casting undue light. And for most of the people, some, this is their moment in the sun. You know, they've gone after. They've claimed they've been abused or the like. And for the rest, this won't be the first report of sexual harassment in a public company or the like. And they talk about complainant number one, and they hide the details enough. That's right.

And they talk, you know, and that's what you do. So this won't hold. That argument won't hold up for Roger Goodell. I'm surprised if it's still standing today. But it's not unusual. in these cases for people who are interviewed or questioned to feel compelled to keep their name out of it. That's not an unusual situation in sexual harassment or sexual assault cases. So it's very possible that some of these women did, but that leads me to what you just were implying.

Why couldn't they just redact the names? Of course they could. And if you say, well, you'll be able to. tell from the other information, you make the other information as general as needed to protect. So you don't say one woman who headed public relations, you say an employee of the club said this or felt this or reported this. In the stewardess, in the airplane case, that becomes a little more difficult. It becomes more difficult because clearly there was a $1.6 million settlement that had to include

some sort of confidentiality and perpetuity, right? Yes, and that did. And that person, I think, wants the confidentiality, but that person is not the person on which the entire Beth Wilkinson report gets quashed by.

There is no way the argument stands up that the NFL wanted, Beth wanted to write the report, of course Beth wanted to write the report. She spent over a year investigating. She took read hundreds of thousands of emails. She took depositions, and she didn't want to write a report.

So obviously, Beth wanted to write the report. Once Beth wanted to write a report, someone had to tell her not to. And do you think that was Roger Goodell without talking to the other owners saying, I think it would violate the anonymity of some of these complainants? That won't stand up, Kevin. So I want to come back to the written report versus, you know, no written report versus the oral presentation versus what she may still have, you know, in her possession with respect to the investigation. But on the comment that we were just talking about, the first mistake that you

think Roger Goodell made by, you know, saying that they were trying to protect those that stepped forward for the, to be questioned for the investigation, protecting their anonymity, we understand that they could easily redact names. They could easily, you know, present it in a way that didn't, you know, put any risk on these interviewees. slash victims of having their name released. So given that he said this, you said Lisa Banks will eat him alive. How? How will that happen moving forward?

This was dying down. But Lisa Banks got two Congress representatives to send the letter over the bow to say we care about this. That wasn't a subpoena. It wasn't enough to get things going. But now that Lisa Banks said, the NFL said they were. will release the report. It's just they want waivers from the plaintiffs. Lisa Banks is going to have a, you know,

have a presentation of the waivers from the plaintiff. She's going to be at every podium at every week meeting saying, the victims demand justice, and the league is trying to hide behind the victims. That's the end of that argument. So Roger Gale is going to have to at some point say, No, I don't really mean that. I mean, we're moving forward.

Pay no attention to what I said yesterday. Well, she could also say that, because it's possible not every person that was interviewed would then say to Lisa, no, no, no, they can use my name. But all she's got to ask for is redactions of names. That her clients are fine with their names being redacted and everything else being included in a presentation publicly. as to the findings. I mean, she doesn't even really need them to waive it. There wasn't a doubt.

There was not a doubt that the names would have been redacted anyway. They would not have said Mary Ellen Jones. In any event, that's not how Beth would write the report. She'd say we interviewed 27 former female employees. 17 reported that at the front office at Alex Santos or I don't know anybody did anything, but within it there were two young assistants who made these kind of rude comments. That was known, reported, three of them complained. You won't know who it will give you the culture.

It will give you the atmosphere. It will tell you what's going on to the extent that that was a problem, to the extent when Bruce Allen said the culture is quite good, he meant something different by quite good, I guess. Yeah. But. So what will happen? When she presents all of these waivers of anonymity, no, they're not concerned about that.

You can use their names or you can use the information in redacted form. How will the commissioner respond to that? So his job is going to depend on moving forward. And the commissioner is going to say, at some point he's got to say, one of two things can happen. The commissioner could say the league has decided to move forward, end of story. we're not doing it and try to tough it out. But now he's got a chink in the armor. Now the Hill has a little more momentum.

Now Lisa Banks has more momentum. For the first time, if you asked me yesterday before this, do I think there's a chance that Dan Snyder loses the club? I'd say zero. I'd say now this process could get away from them. It could unravel. We might be up to 20%. We're not up to 80%.

We're not up to what the fan base would have wanted, but maybe 20%. that this unravels, it spins out of control. And it could be that, you know, sacrificial lambs exist. It might be, I hope it's not my friend Jeff Pash that they've said they've changed to read counsel and they're putting these new steps into place. But they've got to put this fire back out. And once you have a fire you think you can contain, that means you might not be able

to contain. If they can't contain it, the emails can start coming out. if the email start coming out, even though they won't specifically have Daniel Snyder doing A or B, believe me, by the end, they'll need some sort of change. A special master at the Washington Redskins, a four-month suspension that if he can deny the suspension that his wife runs the club, that won't be enough if these emails start coming out. Well, you raised it from zero to 20, and by the way, you're zero yesterday. I think even though there are reasons to hope because of the last couple of weeks.

I don't know if it was zero, but I would have had mine close to zero. But it's at 20% in part because let's just say they are successful and having some more of this information released. There still has to be something that ties him to something untoward. Yeah, and I don't actually think they've got. Let's take the 1.6 million case out. Everything else we've ever heard involves bad management and actions of others. That's right.

Alex Santos or front office and bad management. And by the way, I have no, I know this community pretty well. I have no reason to think Dennis Knight ever engaged in sexual harassment. It's not, he's not kind of one of the boys that way. He's kind of excluded from being one of the boys in that locker room a little bit. So I don't think it's there. But if the management looks so, if the stories look bad, if the emails are rampant, where, you know, it took, how long did it take for an email come out for John Gruden to go from, I'm sorry, I'm not a racist, too, I need a new job. These spin heavily, you know, on a management world.

It could just be, do we get to Jerry Richardson? I don't know, but it could be where they just say, then it's going to bleed from you to the Patriots and from the Patriots to the Cowboys. We're sorry, we've got to end it now. You're going overboard. It's the Club of 32. The Club of 32 is the jury.

They can decide what they like. Right. I think that the one thing. and I think you and I have even talked about this or maybe emailed back and forth about this in the past, is that, you know, they've got, you know, I am sure that there are many owners who say, we need this guy out. He's ruined one of our most potentially lucrative markets, but it's the threat of long-term litigation and the, therefore the grace of God go I, that they have not gone through with it. But before we get to more of that,

And the second mistake you think Goodell made, as he commented on the punishment for Snyder, this Beth Wilkinson report. So she's in the middle of doing the investigation. And at some point, as you described, they say, we don't want a written report. How, first of all, I'm curious. How typical is it that somebody, a law firm is hired to conduct an investigation, and there's no reason. And there's no written conclusion to this? I was a lawyer for 27 years, and I've been following this world a lot longer. I have never

literally never heard it. You know, sometimes you get hired that no one knows you're doing it. And they say, take a look and let us know if we should engage you for a report. And the person comes back and says, look, it'll get ugly if I go do it and they'll say, never mind. But if they

They go to having the entire world know of a report, waiting on edge, what's taking best so long, and we know what took so long. Her team reviewed well over and it's more than $250,000, millions of emails. They took depositions. They spoke to lots of people. I still don't understand Jay Gruden saying he wasn't contacted. I'm sure somebody would have covered Jay Gruden. But they did all this.

it is mind-boggling to say we don't want the written report. Nobody's ever asked, was there a draft? No one's ever asked, how extensive are the notes? No one's ever asked where the depositions transcribed, of course they were. So it's there, and then the question is, are they forced, if this unravels, again, it's a 20% chance, but if it unravels, are they forced to now say, okay, We, the NFL are getting ahead of this, we're going to request Beth to write the report. Well, she'd happen.

Or just however she presented it to, was it to Lisa Friel, I'm starting to forget some of the figures in this, whether it was to Gaddell or Lisa Friel or whomever it was in the league office that had the findings of the Beth Wilkinson investigation presented. to them, whatever that presentation was. I mean, she probably didn't just go in there and, you know, give it completely orally without any notes or without any, you know, overheads or any PowerPoint or something to sort of assist the presentation. I would think some of that would exist. Totally. Totally.

Look, if they wanted this released in any form, that's a little bit of simple. prepare it. It exists plenty. Now, again, we don't know that it says anything specifically in Snyder, but it will paint a bad atmosphere of what was prevailing in the clubhouse and what was prevailing in the front office. And then the question is, can the person where the buck melt and normally stops, the CEO, the head of it, can he survive that by saying, I just didn't know or wasn't his job to know? And the problem, is if he goes, does the plaintiff's bar then start getting an allegation from New England or Atlanta? You know, and off you go. You know, you're coming to a conclusion here that I've kind of

come to recently. You know, whatever happened on that plane ride back from the country music awards on that plane that resulted in a $1.6 million settlement with a woman who was on the plane, that's obviously very interesting because the Post did report it involved some sort of harassment, you know, with Dan Snyder on the plane and potentially involved. But putting that aside, if that never sees the light of day, I think this is just this is just a gut feel based on the environment that we are in right now, the environment we've been in, including during the Beth Wilkinson investigation. I just sort of feel like if there really was, something there, whether it was racial or homophobic or transphobic or misogynistic,

really tying Dan Snyder to something that was just completely out of order. That was him, not him overseeing an organization that had that culture, but him. I just find it, I know 10 years ago, five years ago, the league could have covered it up and the whole thing, but the risk of covering that up in this environment and then having it come out down the road would have been incredibly damaging to a league that really doesn't get damaged by much. But I really think if something were there, am I being naive to think that if something actually really was there, that they would have used it to get rid of them? I agree with you.

In fact, when I read the post argument articles, I kept looking for what there was. Right. And they had the airplane, and then they had fight night. And that was the most absurd that Dan Snyder had a sweet fight night and he invited people back up. Everybody who smokes a cigar in Washington because they think they're a big wig, rents a suite of fight night and invites everyone back up to their suite to show all their cigars. I mean, so that it's the best they had. Yeah, that report, remember, not to interrupt, but that report suggested that he tried to hook up one of his cheerleaders with his buddy.

But that was a he said, she said situation. So again, but continue. Yeah, but even that he said, she said, she said, he said, why don't I go back to his suite afterwards, he has a great suite and his buddy will be there. Well, I mean, so will, so will, you know, attendance and all the stuff. friends. It wasn't like the buddy was going to do anything on tour there. So maybe he gets accused of inviting someone, do you want to have a, you know, go to a crowded suite and have hors d'oeuvres afterwards. It's my big suite and my buddy will be there. That's about

as bad as that one. And if that makes the paper, if that was a standard, a lot of people would be in trouble in this town. especially on fight night at the Washington Hilton I went to many of them yes yeah I just like I've said it so many times here

and on the radio show I guess my gut just tells me the same thing it tells you and that is if honestly there was something there that was really bad that the owners would look so awful for not taking action against him and forcing him out. I just think we would have known it.

Maybe 15 years ago, 10 years ago, they would have thought we can get away with covering this up, but not in this environment. I just, that would have been a big risk for them. Now, back to the report with Beth Wilkinson, two things. One, just out of curiosity, what do you think she and her team were paid for this investigation? I'm just curious. Well, Beth is a 1,1,1, 1,300 an hour. Yeah.

I suspect it was, I suspect the fees probably were in the $7 to $10 million range. Okay. So when they said we don't want a written report for $7 to $10 million, yeah, no problem at all, right? Even a Beth Wilkinson. They'll throw it in. It probably only costs another $300,000 to put it on paper. You're ready, and yes, that's exactly it. All right.

Let's move to the next mistake that Goodell, you think, made yesterday. Go ahead. Right. And this one, he's gotten by all the media, and he's actually gotten by the plaintiff's bar as well. Everyone says, well, at least they got a substantial fine. And that was the substantial fine show that they took action. And so Goodell said yesterday, we did punish Danny. Now, the interesting part was he says he's been gone for four months.

So that gave us the suspension that was never declared a suspension. But forget that. But everyone said, well, at least there was a $10 million fine. There was no $10 million fine. Right. When Tom Wilson punches someone in the nose, the league finds him $10 million. He writes a check to the leak. His bank account gets deducted by $10 million, and he's lost money he otherwise wouldn't have spent.

When a player gets fined for not showing to training camp, he loses money that would have been his. He no longer can spend it. What happened was the league said, this year you've got to make charitable contributions of at least $10 million to these particular causes. So the question is, first of all, it was organization, not dad. Second of all, we don't know how much they spend each year on charitable contributions, but I suspect it's more than $10 million. Yeah, it's all tax deductible. Of course, everybody makes charitable contributions for tax reasons and other reasons do. But they do it to help causes.

Of course. year. They just had to make sure certain of their causes met the broad categories. So it was a, it was a direction that when you spend, if you spend 25 million a year on charitable causes, make sure 10 of it is about understanding gender needs, sensitivity to gender. It was a direction of their charity that became a fine that was a sanction, and no one sitting there saying, where's the fine? And so now if Goodell is staking that we did understand on the fine to should have at least fine the guy. Because now Lisa Banks said, what's $10 million?

It's a slap on the wrist. It wasn't $10 million. It wasn't a slap on the wrist. A slap on the wrist would have at least been a slap on the wrist. This was redirecting their charitable contributions to fit a certain definition. Yeah, and again, it's tax deductible. and tax deductible for sure. It's tax deductible and it's necessary.

They broadcast every year how much they've given to local causes. That's part of what sports teams do and they should. So, okay, so you think he made a big mistake, not necessarily on the fine thing, which, by the way, slips past a lot of people, and that's very good clarification on the fact that it really wasn't a fine. it was a requirement to donate $10 million to a few charities. And I think in the actual statement that the League made back on July 1st with respect to the $10 million, they actually outlined what it would be used for.

In fact, I just found it here. The $10 million fine will be used charitably, the League announced, and it will be applied to support organizations committed to character education, anti-bullying, healthy relationships, and related topics. They will also fund programs directed more broadly at improving the workplace, particularly for women and other underrepresented groups and training and development programs, et cetera, et cetera. But back to the four-month comment where Roger Goodell says, I think the organization has been held accountable. I think we've given an unprecedented fine. So he described it as a fine.

Dan Snyder has not been involved with the organization now almost four months. So just so you know, and you may know this already, when people back in July, when the league made its statement, which by the way, the summary of the Wilkinson report that the league put out on July 1st was a pretty damning summary. You know, they really did rip into the organization for a toxic culture that, you know, outlined sexual harassment issues, outlined bullying and intimidation. It was not like, hey, the investigation is over and we're putting procedures in place to make sure that some of the things that Beth found never happened again. It was a damning summary. It wasn't enough. I'm not suggesting that. But it was a damning summary.

But back to the four-month thing where Roger Goodell says he's not been involved with the organization now for almost four months. Dan back then, Howard, had people calling lawyers and PR people calling people calling people like, Tom Leverro to say, do not describe Dan Snyder being suspended. He was not suspended. So what did the commissioner reveal yesterday that he has not been involved with the organization for now almost four months? What was that? What did he reveal there? And it's fascinating because what happened was they said, Dan, if you're going to hang on to this club,

you've got to be fined and you've got to be suspended. And Dan had to push back. And so the fine said it became, we'll contribute to causes that, it sounded like the Boys and Girls Clubs of America. And I suspect they probably, or United Way will cover it. I suspect they give more than 10 million a year

to United Way or the Boys and Girls Clubs of America. So you say we're being fined, but it's actually a charitable contribution to where we give already. And then I'm going to look for a new stadium, so I'm pretty busy. I'm going to step away from the day-to-day voluntarily because I'm doing so well heading the stadium search. That's getting great traction for the team. But you cannot say I've been suspended and I'm going to deny it. And they compromised on that.

They compromised because obviously he had to be forced out. So what we know is the league found a really toxic culture. And instead of being able to actually say, here's what we're doing, we're not taking the team from them because he didn't have personal misconduct. We are suspending the Snyders for a year. They cannot enter Redskinned Park, WFT Park, for a year. And we're fining them $25 million to be paid for the league by them and the league internal pay. you would have all said, the media would have all said, he kept his club, he survived, but at least the league took the conduct seriously.

Dan pushed back. You can tell he pushed back. The suspension became a voluntary leave. The day-to-day running was transferred to his wife, unless his wife has that great football background. I don't think anything changed there. Maybe she sits next to Sunny on the sidelines. But, you know, what's changing there? And they couldn't even call it a suspension.

So Dan's lawyers did a great job or the threat of litigation or Jerry Jones having us back. They negotiated a compromise to try to placate the media and the plaintiff bar while placating the owners. And will that hold up after yesterday? I don't think so. This is the part that's maddening to me because it was my initial reaction on July 1st. if this actually were some sort of suspension, and that was the goal of the league, it benefited the league to announce it as a suspension. It would have benefited Dan to have been suspended for six months or a year.

You know, the immediate reaction to $10 million and a co-CEO and Tanya Snyder was this is a wrist slap. This is not a punishment that fits what you described in your summary of the Beth Wilkinson investigation. This is bullshit. Like, why wouldn't the league say, Dan, this is better for us for it to look like we are taking what Beth Wilkinson found very seriously by having an unprecedented fine, or as you've described, charitable donation, but to also really give. this some teeth by announcing that you've been suspended. Now, a suspension of an owner, what does that really mean? He can't, he's at home talking to Ron Rivera and Jason Wright and other people. He can't be in the building. He can't go to games. Whatever it means, I'll get to that in a moment. But it would have benefited all of the parties. Now, I understand the arrogance and

the, you know, the, it's not my fault mentality of Dan and Tanya. We've, we've lived this for 20 years. It's never their fault, and they don't think this is their fault. They blame it on Bruce and anybody else that's come along during his ownership. But my God, Howard, this would have been, look, I'm not saying that Lisa Banks and company would have ever given up. And the reaction probably would have been, this still isn't enough. It should have been a three-year suspension or whatever. But it would have benefited them to look like they were taking this more seriously with respect to the punishment. So why didn't they do it?

Well, they don't have that judgment, but they're not used to it. The only thing that could have been done better is for Dan Snyder earnestly to say, you know, I looked at the report by Beth Wilkinson, and I'm horrified. And I can have lots of excuses that it wasn't me, but it's my organization. I am embarrassed and I'm horrified. I accept the suspension, gratefully. I accept the fine, and I can just vow that. of the fans that the Washington football team will do better.

That's all he had to do. Oh, my God, you're so right. Because that's what the report was. Yeah. That's it. But he's incapable of doing that. He's incapable of looking in the mirror and saying, I'm the problem. This has been their MO.

It's never their fault. You could hear it in Tanya's voice on that podcast she did with Adam Schaefter. They don't think any. By the way, just a quick digression, and I've talked about this. a lot with Tommy. The amazing part of them trying to keep their distance from the culture issues and trying to put it all on Bruce Allen is most of these allegations are from before Bruce Allen was even in the organization and when Dan supposedly had more day-to-day involvement. But that aside, what you just said would have gone so much further. It wouldn't have

stopped, you know, Lisa Bank. and all of the women from, you know, continuing to demand for more transparency and even more punishment and even loss of team. But that's all they had to do on July 1st. I've read it. And he's been just. Yeah. And I accept the suspension.

He surrounds himself with single fans who just say, no, Dan, you're great. If he ever, look, if he ever hired a lawyer either Beth or I did this for 27 years, that conversation with the corporate. exec, they get it. Someone should have served them right by saying, Dan, let's not look for the way out, let's look for the way better. It's just not that hard. But who's going to tell him that?

Bruce? Now, presumably Jason Wright and Ron Rivera could. I just, and I think Jason Wright, you know, has the stones to do it. I just don't know where that process has been. But somebody needed

to do that. Dan, he's the first owners who've made a lot of money and a great entrepreneurial idea, but didn't have the organizational skills and didn't have the sub maturity, the reasoned organization, but they can learn. But he's never been served. It's not going to happen when he's going out, you know, barbecuing with Bruce Allen and having a great time. Well, he's not having a good time with him anymore.

They hate each other. And I want to get to the leaks and the emails here in a moment. But it really is, this is why for all of you, you know, or for the few of you, very few of you, that hope that one day, you know, he changes. You had the opportunity in July to say what Howard just said, I accept the suspension, it's an appropriate suspension and we're going to, and we're looking forward to continue to, to ensure that these things never happen again. It's why we've hired Jason.

and good men like Jason in Ron Rivera and Marty Herney and Martin Mayhew. And it's one of the reasons that my wife is going to be much more involved in the day. There was so many opportunities, but he actually doubled down. He actually had his henchman calling reporters saying he wasn't fined and he wasn't suspended. So don't say it. Like he was too arrogant and too completely lacking in self-awareness to understand that that actually would have helped him. for people to have believed that he was suspended. It's unbelievable to me.

So where do you think the email leaks came from? We don't know, obviously, it would look like that Dan feels, you know, Bruce needed to be buried more and did retribution against Bruce. A lawyer has said it hasn't come from Dan. And, you know, I was a lawyer for 27 years. I tend to think lawyers don't make that statement unless they know. And I don't know the level of grudges. Is there an Alex Santos grudge? Is there, you know, at that level, there could be, this was a toxic.

I don't think Alex Santos would have had access to the emails, though. But he may have, too those. Oh, some of those emails were, you know, those chain emails, where they circulate a picture and this was a redskins shirt with just the bikini bombs or something. You know, in the 1990s, you couldn't hit the week fast enough when those things were circulating. I suspect if you look at Sports Talk Radio, you know, you'll find things that people are saying, I hope they don't see my emails.

You know, it's back then. My emails are among the 650,000 that were reviewed because we had a Redskins adjoys. address we did. As Red Zebra members, all of us, I mean, you know, me and Zabe and Andy and Doc and Cooley and Galdi and C.J. Scotland, we all had addresses. They'll only find

major defenses of Kirk Cousins from me and some very pro- Mike Shanahan stances along the way. You've said something, though. You said that this lawyer who came out on behalf Dan's lawyer, who said he unequivocally is not

the source of the league. He didn't, so you believe that a lawyer wouldn't have said that without absolutely knowing. But it certainly could have come from a Dan Snyder camp member. Maybe Snyder didn't actually specifically leak the emails to, by the way. And I don't know if you've listened recently, but Andrew Beaton, the reporter at the Wall Street Journal, who wrote the puff piece on Snyder in June. You know, Tommy immediately said, This is the dude that broke the story on Friday night.

The first email from Gruden to Bruce Allen, the one that described Demora Smith as Damora Smith and referred to him as having Michelin tire-sized lips. That first email that started the snowball that weekend was reported by the same guy that wrote the puff piece in the Wall Street Journal on Dan Snyder. And the motivation, Snyder hates Bruce Allen. and any collateral damage, especially a good friend of his, he couldn't care less about. And people have said to me, but Sheehan, don't you think he would have realized that this would have just rekindled the conversation? I don't.

I think he has done over the years so many things, Howard, that have been so impulsive and so emotional without thinking through how it plays out down the road. We've seen many examples of it over the years. I would ask you that let's just assume for a moment that, Snyder or somebody in Snyder's camp was the source of these leaked emails. What kind of problem would that pose to him with the other 31 owners? So there's a saying that when you're in the hole stop digging. And first, leaking the email would have been a dig.

If he denied now, because he got asked, I'm sure he got asked by the league, How did these emails get out? And if he said that I didn't release them and, you know, instead it was his next-door neighbor or his son or a member of his camp, he's going to give them every excuse now to say, Dan, you have no one to blame but yourself. And what they need, what they need is a way for Jerry Jones or Robert Kraft to say, Dan did something different than I would have done. And now I can throw them overboard and I don't go. with him. As long as these

owners have, are chained at the ankles to each other, and if they throw Dan overboard, then the next guy falls overboard, and the next guy falls overboard, Dan can have to stay on the boat. But if, for example, he started leaking emails to get back at his

former head of his club and reignited the whole investigation, and they did everything to save him, and now Dan, now we can't, to no longer do it, because what you've you've got no one to blame but yourself. That's the operative provision for when we get new ownership.

When the other 31 can say, now he has no one to blame for himself. They can't say that with a toxic environment because I suspect there are other toxic environments in that league. But nobody would make these foolish mistakes, they would say. Yeah, I mean, we keep coming back to the same thing, right, unless there's really something horribly awful. There are other situations in the league that the owners would fear. And by the way, with this guy, they understand they'd be tied up in court for a long period of time if they tried to take his team away from him. And what usually fixes it when you get in these situations on sports franchises is there's endless people who will put up the money. And the person involved doesn't want the limelight, doesn't want to take the incoming anymore.

There is nothing you can say about Dan Snyder anymore. He's taking it all. He's got nothing to lose. So normally, you know, if there's investigation and Jerry, this is going to get uglier and just step out and they're going to learn more and more, just step out, and we'll get you a great price. Steve Balmer or someone will put up the cash and will get you the highest price ever for a sports franchise and you can say, you know, it's tax planning for your kids and estate planning the way the cooks did.

but for him, what are they going to entice them? What are we going to save you? Your reputation is never coming back. Your only hope is we get a Super Bowl and that's going to be a quarterback, so that's not happening either. I mean, it really is. It's like I wonder, yeah, I mean, you know, it's the, I mean, we were talking about Deshawn Watson on the radio show this morning,

and I just said, look, like, what a hit could the organization, take to drop them any lower than they already are. Now, obviously, I wouldn't trade two firsts in a second and a third for Deshaun Watson without understanding how all of these cases were going to be settled and whether or not he was going to be able to play or whether or not he was going to be in jail or how Goodell in the league was going to handle suspension. Obviously, you need answers to all those things. But, you know, in terms of the PR hit, and this would be the one organization you

would say can't have Deshawn Watson. and yet it's like actually the only thing that's got a chance to save him and save this organization is a quarterback that can lead the team to a series of winning seasons, which I think Deshaun Watson, if he's in his right mind, could do. But it gets back to this, Howard. Like, I don't know. I always think about it from a people perspective. I know he lacks self-awareness.

I know how delusional they are as to their standing in the market. but I was told by a really solid source a couple of years ago, and I've talked a lot about it over the years, that, you know, three, four, five years ago they did a poll. It was an internal poll, not internal in terms of, you know, people polled, but it was an internal conducted poll. And two of the questions asked were, what is your opinion of Bruce Allen and what is your opinion of Dan Snyder? They wanted some sort of sense of a favorability rating, if you will, of both, because, at the time, I think in their own mind, they thought that it was, you know, a loud minority that couldn't stand both of them versus, you know, a loud significant majority. And the numbers came back where basically Dan had an approval rating of like five and Bruce had an approval rating of six. And it totally blew them away. I was told they were very surprised by the results. And I think they had lived in this world of like Harvest Fest and draft day parties and, you know, when you're on the road playing a road game, the Saturday night little rally that they would have, and they

convinced themselves that that was very much representative of the fan base as a whole. But in recent years, things like that approval rating, the empty stadiums, the unbelievably poor television ratings, he's got to know now what has happened to this once unbelievably successful and proud franchise. And I just wonder, how can he be happy? having any fun, being the most, you know, despised person that isn't political in the history of this town. It couldn't have been, and it can't be now very easy for the family. I agree with you totally, but let's look at it this way. From where he is today, he says, look, I'm going to, I'm going to hire Jason Wright, the highest African-American in football. I'm

going to hire the first, the highest female in football. I'm going to choose. change our so someone started giving him good advice someone started the recent hires have made the team look good if you don't look just at the very top of the head their shoulders down Ron Rivera

I mean so he's done the right actions now and he's thinking he's thinking if Ryan Fitzpatrick hadn't gotten hurt and we were able to go 10 and 7 and we snuck and I got a Super Bowl and then I'm a hero again. He's a Ryan Fitzpatrick sack away from being a hero in this town in his mind.

And he'll always be a Ryan Fitzpatrick sack away in his mind from being a hero in this town. And so he's going nowhere. Unfortunately, we'll all, I think we all feel critical. We'll always have one Ryan Fitzpatrick sack too many. So we're going nowhere. And there's the state of the Washington franchise. All right. Summing up, you were at zero percent that he is the owner moving forward yesterday. You're at 1 in 5, 20% today, and it's just because of the Goodell mistakes and what they could potentially open up,

but there still has to be something there when these things potentially are opened up. And what the something there, I agree with you that other than the 1.6 incident, there is nothing that ties directly to Dan Snyder, but is there something that ties that is so overwhelming on the toxic environment that there's an embarrassment and a new story day after day

pounding the league to where the league finally has to say, Dan, you need to take one for the other 31 now. We just can't hold this anymore. Could the management misconduct, the management ignorance, the management naivity reach a level where the league finally says someone's going over, it might be Goodell, it might be Pash, and it might be Dan, but is there at some point where the ethics group says, you know, we can't hold this line anymore? Well, what did it with the name was money.

You know, it was FedEx, it was PepsiCo, it was Bank of America, it was all of these big corporate league and team sponsors that said no more with the name. And we always felt like the only way it would ever change was if it was going to cost the league big money. If corporations and partners and business partners of the league said, sorry, we're out if this name doesn't change. And I kind of think that ultimately it only changes if somebody says, I can't participate with this team or I can't participate as a major corporate sponsor if Dan Snyder is still overseeing the Washington. football team franchise. And I don't know if that'll happen. See, but it doesn't have, but it's not enough to happen at the team level because the revenues come from the TV contract. The only way this can happen is if national football sponsors

pull out because of Dan, and that's an awfully big one. That's an awfully big one to get past the NFL sponsorship because of one owner. Yeah, not to mention they've got others lined up that'll take the place of those that might be leaving. This was great, as always. I'm always appreciative of the time and enjoy the conversation. And, you know, as I've told you before, Belgium's one of my favorite trips ever. I think we're planning something in the next couple of years to go back over there, to go to Amsterdam, to go to Brussels. And, you know, I will certainly talk to you well before then.

Do you have, before I let you go, because you've always got, you know, a story from something in the past that ends up being. incredibly interesting. What's been on your mind? What's the latest story you've told somebody that maybe you haven't told me or the audience here? Kevin, I'm still doing mainly politics on a Saturday morning show on Odyssey in Richmond. As I see, I still do politics.

And I've still been calling the 2024 race. So most of my stories go in politics and never mix them with sports. So if you want to know who's next president, we'll talk offline. Well, you told me the last time on the podcast or on the radio show, I forget. You told me that your bet was a Haley Pompeo Republican ticket. Are you still on that?

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Come on, we'll go back and play it. So since, just since the day of the last election, I explained that the 2024 Republican ticket, I had a change a couple weeks where because the Vogue piece came out was Trump, Haley, and Haley got replaced there. So it wasn't Haley Pompeo. I own the domain names Trump Haley is what I owned. Remember, I own Biden Harris.

I owned Biden Harris. I own Trump Haley, and I had to replace that with Trump DeSantis or Trump Nome, which are ones I own. So that's the Republican ticket. And then I've got Harris Warner and Harris Murphy on the Democratic. Democrat side. And it may well be that Dan's in good stead again because it may well be that Donald Trump's back in the White House. Well, I didn't mean to get you mixed up with somebody. I have a couple of friends that I have conversations with about, you know, guessing the 2024 race. And I could have sworn that you were the Haley Pompeo ticket, but I...

Haley Pompeo as the vice president leaders in the cold house. I thought you also gave me Tim Scott as, that may have been another friend too, that you would place a wager or secured some sort of URL for Scott Haley, I thought it was. That's not you either. A lot of people are, I just don't, believe me,

it's Donald at the top of the ticket. Then the question is number two. he's got to run out of New Jersey for it to be DeSantis, but that's his strongest ticket he may take Christy Knoem from North Dakota. And you think DeSantis would actually be a VP candidate for him rather than trying to get the... Yes. But you think that that would come after he makes a run at the nomination? DeSantis and DeSantis and Haley will not challenge Trump with Trump runs.

The only one who said he will is Mike Pence. This was fun, as always. Howard Gutman, everybody, one of the smartest guys in Washington and the most popular ambassador to Belgium, American ambassador in history, which is true. They did a poll on that. Thank you. I'll talk to you soon. All the best, Kevin, take good care.

All right. Up next, 30 years ago tonight, the 1991 Washington Redskins faced their biggest test of the season was one of the most anticipated regular season games in Washington football team history. We'll go down 30 years ago memory lane right after these words from a few of our sponsors. All right, this segment presented by MyBooky, go to MyBooky.com or MyBooky.ag and take advantage of this opportunity on Friday night. An NBA game between the Mavericks and the Nuggets, when they score a bucket and they will, you win. That's a lock.

This is the biggest lock of all time. Superstars like Yokic and Donchich going head-to-head Friday night won't take more than a minute of the game before your bet cashes. And that's not all. You'll get paid Friday, wake up Saturday, and throw down on UFC 267. On Saturday night, MyBooky is giving all users a $100 risk-free wager on the light heavyweight championship main event. So don't wait.

Head to MyBooky.com. Now, use my promo code Kevin DC, and MyBooky will instantly double your first deposit. That's promo code Kevin DC at MyBooky.ag or MyBooky.com so you can double your funds to double your winnings. I've mentioned before if the promo code already has something written in it when you go to sign up, erase it and put Kevin D.C. in there, and you'll get the benefit of some of the offers that MyBooky is making. All right, let's continue where we left off, I think, two weeks ago, and that is continuing to go down memory lane 30 years ago, the 1991 Washington Redskins,

the greatest team in franchise history, one of the great Super Bowl winners of all time. We match up week by week 30 years ago, and 30 years ago tonight, Washington was 7 and 0, and on the road to face after their by week, the New York football giants, the defending Super Bowl champions. This was one of the most anticipated regular season matchups of the season, really one of the most anticipated regular season matchups in recent

years. It also came, ironically, on Sunday night football on ESPN. There was also a game seven of the World Series going on between the 1991 Braves and the 1991 Minnesota twins, one of the famous game sevens of all time. This was the game seven pitch by Jack Morris, who led Minnesota to a one-nothing game seven win over the Atlanta Braves. Simultaneous with that game was Washington and the Giants in the Meadowlands, 7 and O Washington against four and three New York, but the defending champion New York Giants who had beaten Washington. six times in a row heading into that game. You'll recall back then during the mid-80s into the early 90s,

Washington, New York was as big a rivalry as there was in the NFL. It had almost superseded Washington, Dallas, as the biggest rivalry in the NFL. Those two teams playing monumental games year and year out. The only problem with the rivalry at the time is that the Giants were really dominating it. The Giants had won six in a row. The last time Washington had beaten New York came in the 1987 season when they actually swept New York that particular year. That was the year Washington won the Super Bowl. Then you had back-to-back 49ers Super Bowls, and then the Giants in 1990 ended the 49ers attempted a three-peat, winning the Super Bowl with Jeff Hostetler over the Buffalo Bills in Tampa.

1991 was Washington's turn. And Washington with that six-game losing streak against the Giants as a 7-0 team went to New York and initially was an underdog in the game as a 7-0 team against the 4-and-3 Giants. They went off as a slight favorite in the game. The Meadowlands jacked up for this game, loud as hell, and the Giants dominated the first half of the game. They outscored Washington 13 to nothing and racked up 200.000. and seven yards to just 35 for Washington in the first half. So the skins down 13-0 at halftime, got on a roll in the second half, a memorable second half, and it started with an incredible long drive that started deep in their territory

in the third quarter, 13 to nothing. Let's pick up the call on a third end goal at the giant seven-yard line, late third quarter, Mike Patrick and Joe Thaisman on the call. This is the 20thous play of this drive, and we only have 47 seconds to go in the third quarter. Rippin' court, touchdown. It took 20 plays for the Washington Redskins to finally get a drive that would put points on the board.

So that made it 13 to 7, and they were pumped up and they had some momentum, game went into the early fourth quarter after a stop. Washington got the ball back at midfield. Brian Mitchell with a really good punt return, and they had a second down and 11 from their own 46-yard line down 13-7 early in the fourth quarter. This is what they did well all season long was throw the bomb. Here it is ripping to Gary Clark. They're the score by totals. The skins can score like an machine in the fourth quarter,

and the Giants have given up 51 in the fourth quarter. That's one of the worst in the league. Rippin. Clark is open. First and walls, a step behind. And for the second time in the game, Mark Rippin put the bomb right in the hands of Gary Clark. But he caught this.

Well, they ran with a little roll to the right the first time. This time they ran it. with a little roll to the left. Rippen just sets and fires. Clark's on the outside. Emerson's looking in, looking in. He says, oh, no, can't run like he used to at the corner. That time he just peaked a little too long. Gary Clark has four touchdown catches on the year in the top ten and catches and yardage

in the NFC. And Lohmiller puts the Redskins on top. What a comeback so far for Mark Rippin and the Redskins Offer. defense down 13 nothing. Now they lead it by one. You can find the highlight yourself on YouTube. Just Google 1991 Giants versus Redskins. That was sort of a dash sprint left. Ripon turns his body, throws deep, and nobody threw a better deep ball. Not then than Mark Rippin did. And nobody was a better deep threat than Gary Clark. They had a 14 to 13 lead.

They got the ball back. They drove the field. They kicked a field goal. 17, 13, with about a minute to go. The Giants in desperation mode in the final few seconds, trying to get in range to at least attempt to Hail Mary, and this is what happened. 25 seconds left.

Ostender over the middle, hits up in the air. Wilmer Marshall with his fifth interception. came into the game tied for the league lead and gets his fifth on a tip ball. The thing that you did not hear Mike Patrick or Joe Thaisman say on that call of the Wilbur Marshall interception is that Marshall pitched the ball before he went down to Alvoid Mays, number 20, and Mays did the right thing and got down. But Marshall had the interception to clinch the game, and he's pitching the ball backwards to Alvoy Mays.

But Washington had really done something that they needed to do. They needed to end the streak six in a row to the Giants. Rippin said after the game, he said, quote, we knew it was a chance to pretty much eliminate them from the division title race. You'd have to say we're in the driver's seat right now, but we're not forgetting there are eight games left. It certainly takes one monkey off our back, closed quote. This was huge for Washington to end the street.

streak against the Giants. To beat the Giants, the Ray Hanley Giants, not the Parcells Giants, the Ray Hanley Giants, but to beat the Giants in that spot, increase their division lead by four games over the Giants, pretty much putting them into a real difficult position to come back and win the division. They had a three-game lead on the Cowboys, who they had already beaten once at that point. That was Jimmy's first good team, the 1991 team. They would go on to go to the playoffs, win a wild card game, and then lose to the Lions in the divisional round. The Lions ultimately ended up being Washington's NFC championship opponent. But Washington had outgained the Giants 254, 219 to 64, excuse me, and outscored them 17-0

in the second half to totally turn the tables on New York in the Meadowlands. A huge win for them. First time in 55 years, they, had had a perfect record through eight games, and they took control of the NFC East at the halfway mark. Now, they had a huge game the following week on November 3, 1991. Jack Pardees, Houston Oilers, came to RFK Stadium as a 7-1 football team against Washington, who was 8-0. But we'll do that next week. Ricky Irvins, by the way, had a huge game. in the win over the Giants.

He had really busted out the game before against Cleveland with 133 yards rushing. He had 20 carries for 82 yards. The rookie from USC was starting to become more of a prominent featured back along with Ernest Biner. And Gerald Riggs, you know, the carries for Riggs were starting to go downhill a little bit. But Rippin didn't have a huge night statistically, but what a second half. the two touchdown passes to Gary Clark. Clark only had three catches on the night for 70 yards, but two of them were for touchdowns. There you go. Thirty years ago tonight, a massive NFL game that was going head to head with Game 7 of the World Series between the Twins and the Braves.

But Washington got the win, ended the streak against the Giants, and were 8.0. All right. One last thing to get to when we come back, and that is some breaking NFL news, which really puts tomorrow night's game, one of the games of the year, one of the anticipated games of the year, and a little bit of jeopardy. We'll do that right after these words from a few of our sponsors. Just a reminder, if you haven't subscribed to the podcast, it'll help us if you do that. Doesn't cost you a thing. Rate us and review us wherever you can as well. I know there have been some issues with Apple specifically in getting the podcast out. in a timely manner. We're not the only podcast that has had that issue. I listen to every podcast I listen to through Apple as well on my phone. Just remember that the Kevin Sheehan Show.com, the Kevin Sheeonshow.com, our website will always have it up there in a timely manner. Typically, everybody gets it at the same time. But if for whatever reason you think you should already have the show, and occasionally we get it out later, then we want to get it.

it out, but typically it's going to be available early afternoon, sometimes late morning, sometimes mid-afternoon, I understand that. Sometimes that's just because the guests that we wanted on the show wasn't available, and I felt like it was worth waiting for that person, but whatever. Just know that the Kevin Sheeonshow.com will have the show always, even if your normal place for listening to a podcast, doesn't have it in a timely manner. Rate us and review us wherever you can as well. All right. So a couple of things just to finish up the show.

Tomorrow night, Arizona Green Bay, and what should have been one of the games of the year. Undefeated Cardinals at home against the 6-1 Packers. Well, we know from yesterday that Devante Adams tested positive for COVID-19, and even though there is a possibility that he could get two negative tests within a 24-hour period as a vaccinated player and be available. Thursday night. Certainly Matt Lafleur and others are acting as if they're not going to have Devante Adams, not on the short week heading into the Thursday night game. They're also going to be

without Alan Lazard. He also is on the COVID-19 list. Lazzard had five big catches for 60 yards in the game on Sunday against Washington. And Valdez scantling, their receiver who's missed the last four games while being on injured reserve with a hamstring injury might play, but they're not certain about that. By the way, Joe Barry, their defensive coordinator, former Washington defensive coordinator, is also on the COVID-19 list as well. So this game is headed towards being the first game of the year significantly impacted by COVID-19, with primarily based on at least what's been reported, vaccinated players and coaches. I mean, Joe Barry would not be a coach on the sideline for this particular team if

you were not vaccinated. Anyway, it's a shame because tomorrow night's game really looked like a heavyweight matchup. You'll have Aaron Rogers still out there for the Packers, as far as we know. You'll have Aaron Jones and A.J. Dillon and, you know, Robert Tonion. and if they can get Valdez Scantling back, that would be big. But if not, it's going to be, you know, St. Brown. It'll be Killen Hill. It'll be Cobb.

It'll be a shell of what they have been working with primarily at wide receiver. And without Devonti Adams, obviously, you know, debatably the best receiver in the game. It'll be a big loss for them. But anyway, that's one thing. Brandon Sheriff was back at practice today, so it's possible that, Washington will have Brandon Sheriff back in the lineup Sunday in Denver. And then there is this report that the Carolina Panthers, I guess, are out of the Deshawn Watson sweepstakes.

They are not going to seek a trade for Deshawn Watson, according to reports, before the trade deadline. Despite the fact that Sam Darnold hasn't been playing well. But there are still reports that the dolphins are involved. But the dolphins owner, Stephen Ross, wants to understand that A, Deshawn Watson is going to be cleared or settled on all of these charges. And B, that the commissioner is not going to suspend him for a significant amount of time. Those are going to be big things for Stephen Ross. Now, as far as Washington goes, Ron Rivera has said, and a lot of these,

local beat reporters have said that Washington is not going to be in on Dishon Watson. It would be a tough organization for Dishon Watson to come to. Remember, Dishon Watson also has a no trade clause, so he can dictate pretty much where he wants to go. Now, if he wants to play and he's going to be cleared of these 22 civil lawsuits, or I'm sorry, he's going to be settled on the 22 civil lawsuits. And then the criminal complaints that have come out recently, somehow were to be. to get dropped. And the commissioner only suspends them for four to six games. Would Washington be interested? I don't know. I think they should be. At this point, how much lower can you go in

terms of damage control? Their reputation is as low as it's ever been, and it's never been very high to begin with. Ultimately, this team has to find a quarterback that is eligible to play and is great to sort of take them somewhere off of rock bottom. Without that or without an ownership change, it's just more likely than not never going to happen. I would not be against Deshaun Watson coming here, but again, I'd want to know that he's cleared. I want to know that everything is settled.

I'd also want to know that he is not addicted, you know, that there would have to be some sort of evaluation of him mentally and psychologically to give comfort that this isn't going to happen in a new city with Deshawn Watson traveling all around town looking for happy ending places. So you'd want to know that. You'd certainly want to know what kind of suspension is coming as well. But Deshaun Watson, you know, before all of the things happened to him related to this, you know, all of the allegations, all of, you know, all of the smoke and fire.

around this, obviously with 22, you know, women plus more who have now filed criminal complaints. I think Deshawn Watson would have been a player I would have gone after very aggressively. At the time I said, there isn't anything that I wouldn't trade for him. I mean, within reason. But, you know, three first, two seconds in a player, sign me up. For Matt Stafford, I was all in for, you know, a significant number of picks, two first, you know, a third, and, you know, Matt Ionitis. Didn't want to trade Chase Young in the Matt Stafford deal.

But more I think about it, you know, now Matt Stafford would have been a big difference maker, even on this team with a bad defense. He would have been. I think he would have been responsible for at least one more win. So you're three and four, maybe two, and you're four and three. But that's just my opinion. Anyway, all right, we're done for the day. Back tomorrow with Tommy.