The Kevin Sheehan Show - Gregg Williams?

Episode Date: January 15, 2019

Kevin and Thom started the show talking about the possibility of Gregg Williams becoming the Redskins' Defensive Coordinator. They talked about Thom's column regarding Dan Snyder's decision to halt an early-season marketing plan titled "We Hail". They talked Maryland-Wisconsin, NFL Playoffs, and James Harden. <p> </p><p>Learn more about your ad choices. Visit <a href="https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices">podcastchoices.com/adchoices</a></p> Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You want it. You need it. It's what everyone's talking about. The Kevin Sheehan Show. Now here's Kevin. You're listening to The Sports Fix. Yeah, Tommy's here. Aaron's here. I'm here. It's the Kevin Sheehan Show podcast with Tom Laverro, presented by Window Nation. If you're in the market for Windows, call 86690 Nation or go to windownation.com and tell them we told you to call. Tommy had a very interesting column yesterday that we will get to. I also want you to weigh in. on the NFL playoff games. And we'll wait until Thursday to really preview the two championship games. I was at the Maryland game last night. We'll get to that in a moment. But yesterday after the podcast, J.P. Finley reported that Greg Williams' contract with the Jets is not a done deal. And the Redskins were trying to secure a meeting before anything goes final, per a source that he had.

the meeting hopefully takes place as soon as today. This would be, for me, the best news related to the organization in a while. I mean, I'm not going to, you know, suggest that a parade be held, but I want people like Doug Williams in the organization. I suggested a month and a half ago that he be the replacement for Jay Gruden, that I would have looked to Greg Williams to be my head coach. Right. How do you think Greg Minnowski feels these days?

Oh, I mean, just basically, you know, wishing that his contract was up at this point, hoping that they'll just fire him and stop the madness. You know, when you see a story like this, let's break down what the story really is. The Redskins are trying to get a meeting with Greg Williams. Okay. Now, that's an easy thing to tell a reporter, isn't it? you know what i'm going to try to get a meeting with gregg williams too and we'll see if i'm successful i'm figuring i'm going to be just as successful as the redskins are in getting a

meeting with greg william so the story is a nothing burger in that words like it's the team saying we're going to try to trade for aaron rogers well here's why it's not a nothing burger because Greg Williams, after all of the reports that he had committed to becoming the Jets' new defensive coordinator, apparently has not committed to that. So which means he's still on the market. So he's still on the market, which by itself would be news. Yes. Okay, so start there.

But the team wanting to talk to him. I don't disagree with you on that, although I don't know why it would benefit the team if Minoski is ultimately going to remain as the defensive coordinator to, to let people know that they are trying to secure a meeting with Greg Williams. Also, Mike Gerofalo reported yesterday. Is that NFL Network, Aaron? Yes, it is. NFL Network reported that the Redskins had met with Steve Wilkes.

No, they didn't. That they had tried to secure a meeting with Steve Wilkes? No, they had conversations with Steve Wilkes. Well, is that not a meeting? Like, you are not, you know what? I'll call you on the phone. Well, you can have meetings on the phone. You can have a conference call meeting.

A conversation can last one minute. Okay, that's fair enough. I mean, let's break all this down. No, you're right. But I guess my question in adding to the Greg Williams piece is if Minusky is going to remain, how is the team benefiting from the Greg Williams we want a meeting and Steve Wilkes, we had conversations news getting out. How are they benefiting from this?

Not that they've ever thought things through as to how they would benefit from it. But what would be the point of it? Well, you're right. I mean, it's kind of hard to get into the mind of the insane asylum. That's Redskins Park. Did you just, we may have to replay that. Did you just burp? No. You didn't?

No, I didn't burp. What was that noise that just came out of your body? That was one of the many gases that are escaping my body as I slowly pass on. How did it get into the microphone that quickly? I don't know. All right. Go ahead. Continue.

What was I talking about? You were talking about the insane asylum. Okay. That's all I have to say is insane asylum, and it brings you right back. You know, I don't think they think that fans don't care about Greg Minnowski, so they don't particularly care how it looks for Greg Minusky. And I think they think that Greg Williams would sort of excite them. What was that?

There was another one there. He's got a cough now, and he just told me to stop, and we can. We can go back and edit that if you want. Do you want me to? Yeah, I do. Because I'm cough. I'm trying to. talk here.

I don't know. I think our listeners actually want to hear that. Okay. Listen, I can tell you about my day yesterday that I spent all day in a doctor's office in an emergency room. You did? Yes, I did. But I'm here today.

I'm posting for you. For what reason? Oh, I'm not going to tell you. Are you okay? I'll be okay. What's wrong? Now I'm concerned about you. I'll be okay.

I'm concerned about you. You were in the emergency room yesterday? Yes. Was it because of the breathing issues you've had with the bronchial? Nothing to do with that, doctor. Did you ask your doctor about albuterol? Yes, I did. And you know what he did?

He wrote something in my chart, and now I'm not allowed to go back. I've been flagged from every doctor's office in Frederick. You know, you can advocate for yourself every once in a while. Well, I know how to advocate for myself. You're very good at it when it benefits you. But for some reason... But for your advice on this, this is, again, it was thoughtfully mistaken. Guest guided. Okay, so are you okay?

Yes, I'm okay. You actually look good today, better than you did last week. Listen, you know what the ironic thing is? What's the ironic thing? I mean, and I know it doesn't look like it from looking at me. You're healthier than ever. But I'm healthy. I mean, in other words, like, if you did a rundown of vital signs, right? They're all good.

I know, I bet they are. Your blood pressure is okay? Oh, my blood pressure is good. I'm not diabetic. Right, you're not diabetic. You've lost a lot of weight in recent years. I have low cholesterol. The good cholesterol? I don't have good high cholesterol. I don't have enough. You have low bad cholesterol.

Yes. That's good. A low overall cholesterol and low bad cholesterol. I had an echocardiogram and a stress test on my heart this summer. Clean bill of health. Really? You were on the treadmill and you did that one? Yes.

But within like a 48-hour period, I was falling apart. I mean, like over the weekend, I got an infection in my finger. and I went to get that checked out and they put me on medicine for that. Is that why you were in the emergency room? No. Oh. No, we haven't gotten to that part yet.

So I'm taking the medicine and all of a sudden I start breaking out and chills and a fever. So I called the doctor's office on Sunday night and I tell them what's happened and I say, well, it's probably not an allergic reaction to the medicine, but maybe you should stop it. Meanwhile, you know the problems I've had with my leg.

when it comes to infections, that pops up. Oh, Jesus. Sunday night. Is that why you were in the emergency room? That's why I was in the emergency room most of the day yesterday. So did they just get, why didn't you call me and say you didn't want to come in today? No, I want to post. So did they just put you on a bunch of antibiotics?

Yes, and I'll be okay. Right. But are you on those, did they, they put the antibiotics in to you intravenously? No, you see, there's no pain. It's not swollen. I don't have a fever. It's just red. So they gave me an oral antibiotic and sent me home.

Okay. And they said, if it's not better in three days, come back in. It's already getting better. Why were you there all day, though, then? Well, because, you know how emergency rooms are. You know what was funny? But I had two people. Did you tell them who you were?

I had two people in the waiting room, one of which was a tech there, walk up and say, I'd listen to you on the radio all the time. And I could have done the, I could have, I was so tempted to say to the tech. Can I slip in through this heart attack patient over here? Yeah, can you help me out? I don't care how much that guy is bleeding in a bucket. I've been waiting for a couple hours. Yeah, I mean, I would never have known because you actually, you look better today.

You weren't feeling well the other day. And it's like, it's like a snowball. Your breathing is better. It's just that there were a bunch of sounds coming from over there. I know. There was, I have the lingering effects of a cough. Okay. And I actually got prescription cough medicine that will probably do a lot.

But that's on the tail end. But, you know, so that's what's going on with me. You hate this weather, don't you? Oh, I didn't hate weather. You know, you haven't gotten to the age yet where you'll hate the weather. I don't like super cold anymore. I never had a problem and still don't have a general problem with bad weather. Actually, you know, I enjoy the winter, you know, like what we had over the weekend.

I love that. I hate when it's just brutally cold and windy and sunny. I can't stand that. If it's going to be really cold and windy, it might as well be snowing. Okay. And then I can enjoy it more. Well, maybe about five or six years ago, the weather's starting to bother me a little bit. So you're headed to Florida soon.

Yes. All right. So anyway, back to the insane asylum. So anyway, I'm sure they think it's in there. It's a nice diversion to say that we're trying to secure a meeting with. Okay, how would J.P. Finley know that? JP's got good sources. So somebody within the organization, right?

Right. But what's the story? Well, the story is, first of all, with respect to Greg Williams, one, he's still available when I think all weekend long everybody thought that he wasn't, that he wasn't available. Two, is that the Redskins are trying to secure a meeting with him today to talk to him, presumably, about. a defensive coordinator position that right now is filled contractually. And if there's no meeting, then it turns out to be no story. Well, no, there still is a story that they're trying to get rid of Greg Minnowski. They just don't know if they can.

Yeah, I mean, well, we think they're trying to get rid of Greg Minoski. That would obviously be, that would be the obvious takeaway is that the meeting apparently between Doug Williams and Todd Bowles, the meeting or the conversation, excuse me, between Steve Wilkes and the team and now trying to secure a meeting with Greg Williams means that the team is interested. There is your headline. Aaron just gave it to both of us. The headline is, at least from a perception standpoint,

they are trying to secure a new defensive coordinator. They're trying to hire a new defensive coordinator to replace Greg Minoski. But that's an old story. We've known that for four or five days. Since the Todd Bulls. When you said old, I thought you were going to say old like it's a month old. No. No, since the Todd Bulls.

That's right. And actually, you know, the feeling has been for at least a month that Greg Minnowski was going to be, you know, one of the coaches on the staff that would be replaced or they were going to attempt to replace. He was the most obvious sacrificial lamb if you're not going to chop off the heads of the leaders. And also. So what's your point here? My point is, I don't think it's a big deal. I think it's a planted story.

I think it serves the Redskins purposes. How does it serve their purposes? It gets people excited that, hey, Greg Williams might come back? Kevin, we have both come to recognize that the only people they care about or recognize now are their core fans, that small group. But they're going to disappoint them. If they're not going to get Greg Williams. No, they won't. They'll say, wow, the team tried.

The team tried to get Greg Williams, but they could. Can't say they're not trying. You know, I think I mentioned this on yesterday's podcast, and it wouldn't have been the first time, but you know this to be true also, is that they do, to use your favorite verb, they bathe in the few that just never think they do wrong because they are actually around those people quite often at the various events that they're involved in. And we've heard, going back to the radio station, being at some of those events, we've heard from their PR people that say, look at this.

They love us. And we know that it's a significant minority of their overall fans or what used to be their fan base. Yes, there you go, Kevin. You see, I think we're at the stage now. Where that's all that's left? Well, not that's all that left, but that's a majority now. Not because they've grown. Well, no, the fire Bruce Allen hashtag people are still here.

That's a bigger group than the harvest feast group. But what I'm saying is a lot of those people have checked out. They're gone. I know a lot. They might come back. So you have three things. You have three buckets here. You have the people that have completely checked out.

Right. You have the hashtag fire Bruce Allen people. And then you have the people that say, why fire Bruce Allen? He's done a great job. Yes. And Dan's trying to win. Can't you see? I know.

He just wants to win. And my point is. That group is small and has always been small. For 10 years it's been small. But I think now that's the heart of the Redskins fan base. That's it. No, I disagree. Okay.

I think if we're comparing, let's just say, we got 100% of what was the fan base 15 years ago. Let's just say 15 years ago, okay? Because I think this erosion really started with Zorn more than anybody else. Okay. I think there were people upset about, you know, Spurrier and Schottenheimer, but then Gibbs sort of got everybody back in. Oh, absolutely.

Okay, so the Zorn, you know, the Zorn, Vinny, Dan, you know, two-year, you know, You know, Shanahan and energized people again. But I'm saying that what I'm saying is go back to before Shanahan, the Zorn two years, started this true sort of substance-based erosion. So let's just say, you know, 100% of the fan base 15 years ago. Of that fan base now, if we divided it into three buckets, the Harvest Fest group, is it Harvest Feast or Harvest Fest? I get confused by this all the time.

I think it's fast. The people that show up at the draft day party, all right? The people that they bathe in all the time in Ashburn. These are our fans. Can't you see them? We had 12,000 and then they'll inflate it to 30,000, show up for the draft day party. That group, the group that has completely checked out, the apathetic, indifferent, done with them group, and then the fire Bruce Allen group. Because they're still, they are still into the team.

They want it to work, but they are so. so angry. There's like anger, apathy, and then complete delusion. But I think the majority of the anger base says that they're checking out until something's done. Well, I, but they have it. The apathy group,

they don't care at this point what's done. I think the apathy group is 50%. I think the hashtag fire Bruce Allen still angry, you know, still emotional about the team, angry is 40%. And I think the

Harvesty, Fest group is 10%. I mean, give or take, there's a plus or minus 2% error margin there. Okay. Well, that sounds fair. But the 40% here are moving much closer to the 50% apathetic indifferent done group than they are towards the Harvest Fest group. Yes, they are. Yeah. Yeah. You sure we did a good job there? Yeah, I think so. All right. So, I mean, I just really take this, the Greg Williams report with a

grain of salt. And apparently, J.P. also posted a podcast I didn't get a chance to listen to. So to be fair, I don't know what it's said. But I think it's a headline is why Greg Williams should pick the Washington Redskins. Well, let's just talk about Greg Williams for a moment. And let's just assume that he's going to take the meeting. I have no idea if he's going to take the meeting. I hope he takes the meeting. Would you if you were Greg Williams? Well, perhaps this benefits Greg Williams in his negotiation with the Jets. That's the fact that it's out there. That may help too.

Yes. But if he is, if he's not getting, let's just say the deal that he wants with the Jets, you know, taking this meeting may benefit him. But let's just say he takes it genuinely interested. And he's pitting Redskins against Jets. And he forgets everything that happened when he was here before. when he was here before. Just like,

just like it just doesn't enter into his mind. Personally, as the person that's more in the, you know, fire Bruce Allen hashtag angered headed towards complete apathy group, this would make me, you know, this would give me just a brief moment of, you know what, they've got good young talent on defense. I don't believe they've been well coached defensively.

I don't think Minoski's the worst, but like Jay Gruden, there are better, and Greg Williams is better. Yeah. Greg Williams is a legitimate defensive mind. I love the way he coaches defense. I love the way his defenses are super aggressive. And one of the ways you can have a competitive outfit in the NFL is to have a great defense. Yes.

Regardless of whether or not Jay Grude never figures out how to run the football, if you have a great defense. And I do think that in the NFL, you can coach. up talent. Like I think Greg Williams could take right now the overall talent on defense is average. The talent in their front three or four is better than average. Oh yeah. Now I'm not I'm not where some fans are where I'm putting Jonathan Allen in the same breath with you know, Fletcher Cox or Aaron Donald yet. I'm not. I mean, I don't even know if he's on that path or trajectory. I don't know that that's true either. I think he's very good. I think he's very good. I think he's very good and he's the best they've had in a while, and I think pain looks really good.

And I think ionitis, he's got to stay healthy, is very good. But it's still overall average talent when you factor in linebackers and secondary as well. They still need pieces defensively. They need three to four pieces defensively. They need more speed overall on defense. They need a true edge pass rusher. They need potentially two safeties and a corner. So if Greg Williams gets another piece or two, and he's the defensive coordinator,

I think he could coach it up to being an excellent defense, even with average to maybe slightly above average talent. Minusky has not been able to do that. Let me bank into your hope and take it a step further. If you're a Redskins fan and this sort of like appeases you, maybe not even excites you, but just appeases you, and you have some forward thinking, wishful thinking,

well, you know, maybe Jay Gruden gets fired. There's the other part of it. And then Greg Williams would be right there to pick as the head coach. Now, I don't think for most teams, I don't think they'd hire him as a head coach because of Bountygate. I just don't think that would happen.

But the Redskins, they could care less. Clearly. Yes. So, you know, that's a really good point too. I mean, I think that there is this genuine warm feeling from Redskin fans about Greg Williams because his defenses were pretty damn good. I mean, not all of them, but they were good, and he's an aggressive, tough, no-nonsense, disciplinarian type. He's a guy that you can get excited about.

He is a guy you can get excited about. At the same time, he's not been a head coach. he was not hired to be the head coach in Cleveland. They decided that they were going to hire instead their offensive guy in Freddie Kitchens. Remember Doc Walker's nickname for him, the Animal Trainer. The Animal Trainer, I do remember that. But getting to that piece of it is, yes, you would have potentially your next head coach on staff as early as whenever their by week is next year.

Yeah. So I think that would generate a little bit. more interest and excitement from some Redskins fans. Do you think they are treating Minnowski poorly in this process with this news getting out about this? Do you think, I mean, is it awkward at the very least? It seems awkward. We don't know the conversations they've had with Greg Minnowski. You know, Greg Minnowski may have told them or may have told someone privately and the word got back to them,

look, I'd love to get out of here. You know, I mean, they already had a special teams coach that has done. done that. At least we think he has, right? The Redskins have not said he's left yet. There still isn't acknowledgement from the team on him or Korean-Grey. Without knowing the conversations, I'm not going to say that they're treating him poorly, but from the outside looking in, it looks that way. It looks like it's an awkward, uncomfortable situation. Somebody asked me on Twitter yesterday, would you, because he said, you're a big Todd Bowles fan. would you want Todd Bowles over Greg Williams?

Well, there's no choice on that. Todd Bowles is in Tampa. Yes. And from what I heard, did not really seriously consider Washington, but I would take Todd Bowles over Greg Williams. As a defensive coordinator, I would. Yeah. I like, I just, I like Todd Bowles, and I think there's,

I think maybe he's a little bit more even keeled and sane, which maybe makes it, makes it wrong for him to be. here. Maybe Greg Williams is perfect for this place. He may be. He could be perfect for this place. Greg Williams would excite me. As a defensive coordinator, I would look, here's what it would. Here's what it would do for me. He's not going to turn around the sinking ship.

I mean, he's not going to all of a sudden put floaters on it and were propped up and here we go. But I would get excited about them defensively next year, especially if they added another piece or two in the draft and another piece or two in free agency that were quality piece. is in free agency, not Orlando Scandrick, you know, not Pernell McPhee, although McPhee didn't play

that poorly at times. They just didn't play a lot. But I would get excited about watching Greg Williams coach up a defense. You know what's interesting. This has been a terrible defensive team for a long time. Oh yeah. I mean, you've got to go back to Williams and Gibbs, maybe a Blosh season, one or two. I don't have the list of seasons in front of me. just off of memory. I think the blotch seasons were not that bad. They weren't that great, but they were not that bad. For the last 10 years, however, they've had historically bad defenses for some of these years,

especially in 2016, 2015. These were bad defensive teams and really poorly coached at times. I didn't think Hazlitt was terrible. Joe Barry was awful. Minnuski's been average. You know, this is, if you're, These have been Jay's picks, and I don't necessarily believe that Joe Barry was just a J-pick. I think he was a Bruce pick as well.

And I think Minoski may have been, you know, a combined front office and coaching staff pick. But that was also they couldn't get anyone to take the job and he was in the room. Wade Phillips would have taken the job. That's true. But Jade supposedly didn't want Wade? Yeah, Jay. Jay thought he was too old. Wade referred to the meeting as being strange.

Yeah. He went back and showed him. I've got to go pull the story, but basically, Wade Phillips talked about how in a playoff game that the Bengals had against the Chargers, I think it was. Wade Phillips was coaching the Chargers defense, and the Chargers came in, and he was showing him film of that game or video of that game, and only showed him the few drives that Cincinnati actually moved the ball on. and Wade basically said, we shut you completely down and we won the game in your stadium in the playoffs. And Wade Phillips referred to the meeting as strange and weird.

Okay. Go ahead. I'd like to find that because it's off of memory. But that introduces another dynamic into this. Look, Jake Rudin's a human being. He's got an ego. If Greg Williams is a defensive coordinator when they open training camp, who's the rock star to everyone's paying attention?

Greg Williams, and I don't know that Jay Gruden would love this hires if that's where you're heading with this. In other words, like, he's got an ego. Yeah. And Greg Williams will be the coaching star of that staff, a guy who works for Jay Gruden. Yeah. All right. I'm going to read you this. This is from Sports Illustrated.

It was a story that came from, I guess, a Wade Phillips book. And the story was titled, Why Couldn't Wade Phillips find work the year before he built a superiors? Super Bowl winning defense in Denver. They have great talent in Denver, too. And here is the excerpt from this book. Finally, I got a call to interview with the Washington Redskins. Jay Gruden, their head coach, had fired his defensive coordinator, Jim Haslett, and wanted to talk to me about the job.

By this point, my son, Wes was the Redskins' tight ends coach, and he still is, by the way. So I was looking forward to the possibility of us working together again. but my interview with Jay was strange, to say the least. I'd had unusual interviews before, like the one with Marty Schottenheimer, that took forever because he asked me a million questions about the 3-4 defense, but I had never gone through something quite like this. When Jay was the offensive coordinator in Cincinnati, I was with the Texans.

I faced the Bengals twice in the playoffs after the 2011 and 2012 season, so it was the Texans, not the Chargers, and beat them both times, 31 to 10, and 19 to 13. I felt he knew my credentials and might have been impressed with the things we were able to do in the previous three games in which we had beaten the Bengals, including one game during the regular season. We watched a lot of tape of the Texans games versus his offense. It seemed to me a lot of the plays were of when Cincinnati did well. Most of the interview was about that. I thought we should have talked more about philosophy,

technique, concepts, and my record, but he was the one interviewing me. after the interview I told Wes of my disappointment. I felt Jay didn't have as much regard for my coaching as I'd hoped he would. He ended up hiring Joe Barry, a friend of his, to be the defensive coordinator. Joe had been with the Chargers, whose defensive coordinator was John Pagano. John had been my linebacker's coach when I was the defensive coordinator in San Diego, so Joe basically learned my defensive system through John. Although I didn't get the job, I was happy for Joe because I think he's a good young coach.

Of course, the main reason I had even considered going to Washington was for the chance to work with my son again, but I know Wes has enjoyed working with Jay, and they've done a good job with the Redskins. So there you go. So I paraphrased that fairly well. It was a strange meeting, and Jay showed them all of the few decent plays

when they got beat three straight games without scoring many points. That would indicate that Jay could have some issues with Greg Williams being the star of the coaching staff. But maybe at this point, he just, you know, will throw up his arms and say, you guys do what you want to do. Because he gives his coaches so much autonomy anyway, according to people in that building that say that Jay basically, you know, focuses on the offense and that's it.

Yeah, I know. Those coaches, including position coaches on offense, have a lot of autonomy. Every head coach has a big ego. They all do. Well, you know, if he wants, if he wants, look, he's guaranteed two more years of payment. And maybe, you know, at this point, maybe Jay wants to move on. Maybe. I mean, I wondered that last year.

A smart man would. Smart man would. All right. We're going to get to your column here momentarily. We'll get to the Maryland game as well. Real quick minute on window nation. Harley and Aaron and Eric, listen to this podcast. I've bought Windows from Window Nation twice in the last 10 years,

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All right. We'll get to Tommy's column here in a moment. I was at the Maryland game last night. When you go to the Maryland game, do you get like swarmed with people that want to come up and see? No, I do not. Do they put you on the video board? Nope. They don't do any other.

Oh, speak of the video board. when he's sitting next to Scott and they put Scott on the video board. Well, no, but that's the funniest thing. Kevin never knows what to do on the video board in those situations. Actually, you know what's so funny is that I don't ever, usually I look up just as it's the camera's moving away. And I realize it. I've noticed that a couple of times. I'm usually oblivious to it.

But you know that Scott, I mean, what happens to him at Maryland when he's there, like it's unbelievable. Like he is a true rock star. Oh, yes, I know. I've been there. I've seen it. I mean, and I've been with Scott in a lot of different places. Nowhere does it manifest itself like it does at Maryland. And you know what? You know what's amazing? It really connects with the student body. They love them.

They love them. They love them. Well, young people in general love his show and have always liked him. Anyway, I went to the game last night. I'll start with this. You know, they were ranked 19th in the country yesterday. They were on a five-game winning streak. They beat Indiana at home on Friday night. there was no excuse from a time starting standpoint.

It was an 830 start, which is what I've advocated, and that is that until the students get on campus, Maryland should have the later start than the 630 start. And there were, what, maybe 14,000, there were 3,000 empties at least. Aaron, am I right about that? You were there. Yeah, it was a, I'd say it was a fairly strong crowd, though. It was not, here's why it wasn't. This is my point. Official announcement, official announcement was 12,000 894. Whoa. Wow. So if this game had been played on a night in which you didn't have a foot of snow the day before, it would have been a packed building, even without the students there last night.

God, are you kidding me? The roads were fine. They were completely fine. And here was the best part about last night. There was no traffic because nobody worked yesterday or went to school. Yeah, you would have thought people would have, after stuck at home all day, would have loved to have gotten out. I knew heading out there, and I said this to my son Corbyn, he's like, I think it's going to be a great crowd. I go, nope, the weather's going to stop a lot of people from coming. You watch. So anyway, Turgeon's great with this, though. Aaron, I don't know if you picked up on this. He raves about the crowd now every game, regardless of whether or not the crowd's great.

Absolutely. We know having been to every big game in that building for the last, you know, 15 years, what a good crowd is. Last night was not a good crowd. You know, it got a little bit loud at the end. It wasn't a great crowd, though. It's not the kind of crowd you would have had on a better weather night situation or with the students there, clearly. But anyway, I digress. They didn't play well, and they led by 21 in this game. And when I say they didn't play well, Tommy, they were really, they just weren't smooth offensively. They really struggled offensively last night. They didn't have, they've been really good. good offensively at times over their five-game win streak. And last night, I just thought the entire night was disjointed offensively. Now, they played Friday night, but so did Wisconsin. So maybe the two teams with a short turnaround, you know, were going to struggle offensively anyway. In Wisconsin, only had 15 points at halftime. Maryland was up 18 at halftime, 33 to 15. And then

they led by 21 at one point. I don't know if it was in the second half of the first half. And then Wisconsin, to say that they got hot would be the understatement of the year. They made 11 threes in the second half. 11 in a college game. There's only 20-minute halves. I know. And they made 11 threes in the second half, and they turned a 21-point deficit into a one-point lead with under a minute to go in the game. And it would have been a devastating loss because they're on a role, and they are,

a young team, and he talks about this all the time, and they are young. They're the fifth youngest team in the country by age. But they, it would have been devastating. You know, ranked yesterday, they bolted into the top 25 at 19 off of their wins last week against Minnesota and Indiana on Friday night. They're 19. This is a home game, and they've got two road games at Ohio State Friday night and Michigan State on Monday night. They really had to have this game last night. Wisconsin is good. I mean, they were ranked 15th in the country two weeks ago. They're a good team. Maryland's more talented than Wisconsin. They've got better players than Wisconsin, in my view. And there they were sitting down one. And I'm like, this is going to be one of

the all-time home losses. Up 21. And not only that, it's going to have some long-lasting ramifications. I would think it would. I would think it would for that head coach. And with that, I turned, I swear to God, I turned to my son, Corbyn, and I said, it's all on Cowan. He's the guy that's going to have to bail him out of this. He's done it before. Everybody else is shell-shocked. He's going to have to get to the rim or make a shot here. And he hit a three with 40 seconds left or, you know, just under a minute to go down 60 to 59 with the shot clock winding down from three to four feet behind the three-point line. And he has been, at times in his career here, since Mello left,

so last year and this year, he has been their big shot taker and a stone cold assassin at times in these spots. And, you know, I think I mentioned this to you on the show, Aaron, yesterday, that I've had this argument with my friends since Cowan came in. And I said, and I stand by it. I think Cowan's going to be in the NBA one day. I know most don't, and most think he's a four-year player, which I believe, too. I think he's a four-year player. But I always think in watching him,

Isch Smith and Jeff Teague, those are the two NBA comps. It may not happen at 23, 24 years old. It may happen when he's 26, you know, and fully physically developed, and he's played in the G-League, and he's played here. But there's going to be a team with his speed and his range that will,

and by the way, he's a good defender, too, for his size. He's going to end up being on an NBA roster. that was a big shot last night and really I think bailed them out of a brutal, brutal offensive half and some of the worst defensive possessions down the stretch you'll see. They allowed their guy Revers who had made four of six from the three point line in the second half and it hit I mean he was the big part of the comeback. They let him as a screener pick and pop with no switch and they left him wide open on threes on two consecutive possessions, and he missed both of them, thankfully, because that was horrible defense, and I was listening to Walt Williams' interview

Turgeon after the game, and Walt is great, and Walt's still coaches, and he, and Walt is in the huddle. He gets up, you know, and walks over, you know, during timeouts, and listens to Turgeon, you know, instruct the team, and then, you know, tell Johnny and Naki, you know, what Maryland's planning on doing. And he said to the coach afterwards, coach, I was in your huddle. I know you told them to switch and they just didn't execute. So this wasn't a coaching thing. He told them and they just didn't do it. It was Cowan actually on the last one that didn't switch. And they left the best three point shooter on that team or the hottest three point shooter on that team. Pick, pop. And Tommy, the guy had three seconds to line it up and fire

it. He was nobody near him. And it would have been for the lead with, you know, 15 seconds left, 20 seconds left. I think it was a lot less than that. Yeah, maybe 11 seconds left. Yeah. I didn't even be, look, because didn't they rebound and then not get, or no, they did get foul. No, they didn't get foul.

They called the time out with 11.9, whatever, with a couple seconds left. Yeah, yeah, I think they rebounded with about five seconds left. Yeah, Cowan didn't get fouled, right. Okay, so terrible defense, but that was like, that was so big for them to survive that. I think that this would have been potentially the beginning. of like a, you know, there's a lot of season left, but a mini downfall with the two games they have upcoming. You think it's big because they avoided a disaster.

Avoided a disaster loss. Okay, so it's a different kind of accomplishment than looking impressive. Now, you know, what are they? They're impressive defensively in the first half. Are they five and one in the big ten? Six and one, no. Six and one in the big ten. And there's the big 10, and then there's Michigan and Michigan State.

Right now, that may be true. They're both 6 and 0. So in other words, Michigan's 17 and 0 overall. Maryland gets two shots at Michigan. So are they capable of beating those teams? I think they are. Really? Now, Monday night in East Lansing, their only game against Michigan State on the road,

they're going to be a seven-point dog, you know, in that game. At Michigan, you know, but. But they get Michigan late in the season at home. And over the years, as you know, especially with Gary, you know, over the years, it's that kind of environment, that kind of situation that they have come through. And so I would say the three games they have against those two teams, that they'll win one of them.

They will. Well, you've got to win the home game. Yeah, I think the Michigan game at home is the one that. But Tommy, they're capable of beating anybody. There is separation, at least record-wise, between Michigan and Michigan State and the rest of the league. But Maryland's got talent. They've got that level talent. They don't have that level experience necessarily.

And they don't have that level coaching. John Beeline and Tom is over two of the best. Two of the best. Yeah. And they're great. But Turgeon's having a good year here. Yes, he is. I'm not trying to diminish what he is, but he's not those guys.

He's not those guys. I think that's fair. I wouldn't say that he I win against Michigan State on the road and then we're talking about different crowds showing up at the rest of the way you get the students back anyway so it was going to be different anyway. I know but still you're talking about

you're talking about a ticket that might be hard to come by then. I think they've got five home games left and actually the Illinois game is at Madison Square Garden. I think the Big Ten is now requiring each team to give up one home game a year. This is Maryland's year to play in Madison Square. Garden. They're playing Illinois. Is that where the Big Ten tournament is?

No, not this year. It was last year. Okay. But they're trying to grow the Big Ten in New York because they have Rutgers. I mean, it's so ridiculous. It's actually a cool thing, though. It's a basketball game and then it's the hockey game at night, I think. Is that what it is? Yeah. At Madison. What's the hockey game?

I don't know. Is it a Rangers game or a Big Ten hockey game? Oh, okay. I didn't know that. No, the, if Maryland, so Maryland's next three games, Tommy, are at a Ohio State at Michigan State, and then they play Illinois and Madison Square Garden. It would be awesome for them to get two of those three. Ohio State was ranked until this week. They've lost a couple of games.

They lost at Rutgers. Maryland's as good as Ohio State. Now, Ohio State's desperate. They've had six days off before this game Friday night, and it's a home game for them, and they're the desperate team going into this game. If Maryland could get the game Friday night and get Illinois, and they live, lose at Michigan State, it'd be awesome. Yes, it would be a great stretch.

Losing all three would be not be awesome. But if they win one or two of those to answer your question, the rest of the way, it will be a hard ticket to get if they are sitting there, you know, in the top 15, you know, contending for a Big Ten regular season title. Already I've seen one bracketology. I think it was CBS Sports. It may have been POMS had Maryland as a four seed already. And, you know, they're my kind of team because they,

play inside out. They've got two bigs. Yes. But one of their bigs can really stretch you. And that is Jaylon Smith hit a three last night. What was he? One for four from behind? I think that's right. But before the game, he was, while everyone was warming up, they had the entire court because for whatever reason, Wisconsin was in the locker room. Smith was on his own on the other side of the court, taking threes for about 15 minutes. He can shoot it. He can really shoot it. And Bruno last night, you know, Maryland right now, I mean, they've got 13 games left in the Big Ten schedule. I mean, we're not even half. halfway through the Big Ten schedule. There's a long way to go here. But right now, Fernando and Cowan, no doubt, are first team all Big Ten possibilities. Now, it's a loaded league. Big Ten Player of the Year

possibility. It's a loaded league. Cowan is in the running right now for Big Ten Player of the Year, but Carson Edwards looks like he's definitely the favorite. But anyway, it was one of those years walking out, you're like, thank God. Yeah. You know, thank God they survived. We won't remember the fact that they blew a 21-point lead. They got the win. It'll just be a win when you're looking back on the season. Maryland's had some all-time meltdowns at home.

The Clemson game is the exact one that came to mind, Aaron. They played Clemson in a game that they had to have. This was one of the years Gary's teams didn't make the tournament. What year was it, 07? 0-08. 0-8. 0-8. But they were right on the fence for the tournament. this was a game in late February. Oh, yeah.

They make the tournament if they win that game. If they win this game against Clemson at home, they're in the tournament, they had a 17-point lead with about 10 minutes to go and blew it. Who was the white kid that just was bombing threes? What was his name? Oh, God. I used to have this memory because it was bore into my head. He just went off on them and just hit every big thing play.

They played Clemson. That was, what conference were they in then? Was it the old, you may have heard of it, the ACC. Oh, okay. I remember that. There's this debate right now, whether or not it's the ACC. the Big Ten is the best league right now. The Big Ten's deeper. It is. I mean, and I heard somebody make the case, yeah, but the ACC's got more teams capable of winning it. I don't know if that's

true. Michigan and Michigan State are both capable of winning the whole thing. Duke lost last night to Syracuse. Virginia lost, they lost in the first round last year to UMBC. They're really good, though. Terence Oglesby. Terence Oglesby. That white dude had some rain. I mean, he was bombing him that night from like 30 feet. Was that an Oliver Pernell coach team, Clemson? I think so. And they were ranked, I think. Yeah, they were ranked that night Clemson was, and Maryland needed it.

And it looked like, all right, we got the game, we're going to be in the tournament. That's the thing, you know, I've had this debate with people who are like, don't forget, you know, Gary's last few years weren't very good. He didn't go to the tournament every year. You keep talking about it. You got to go to the tournament every year. He didn't. he won the ACC Championship in 2010, he's next to last year.

He didn't go in 2011. He went in 2009. He went in 2007. So three of his final five years, he was in the tournament, and one of those years, they won the ACC regular season titles. So it's not like he limped out of college park with a losing record, you know? I mean, that's not even worth entertaining a conversation.

It's stupid. But what happened, Tommy, is he, 11th, eight years, he went with seven sweet 16s during those 11 years, whatever it was. Two final fours, six or seven sweet 16s, and they had that incredible run. And then 2005, so 05 didn't make it, 06 didn't make it, made it in 07, didn't no 8, made it 09, made it 10, and didn't make it in 11. And then during that stretch, they did not make it out of the first weekend. And that was part of the problem, too.

They lost three heartbreakers. They lost a butler, basically in the final three seconds. They lost to Michigan State, you know, at the buzzer, Corey effing Lucius. And they had Syracuse beat in the second round. The year that Syracuse won the title, actually I think it was the year after Syracuse won the title. Had Syracuse beat and couldn't come through that second round game at the very end. Anyway, that's our Maryland discussion, unless you have other questions about it. No, no, my main question.

was do you think they compete with Michigan and Michigan State? I think they'll win. They have three games against the two of them. I think they will win one of them. Okay. And what would be really, really interesting is if they could go to Columbus Friday night, won't be easy. They'll be an underdog Friday night.

Even though they're the ranked team, you watch, Ohio State will be a three-point favorite. Something like that. If they were to beat Ohio State on Friday night, that would set up a massive game on Monday night, a massive national game. Yes. obviously huge in the Big Ten, but if they go to East Lansing with a seven-game win streak and they're ranked, let's just say at that point they might jump into the, well, they'd probably jump into the top 15 easily and just call it their 14th ranked in the country and they're playing

Michigan State and Michigan State's in the top five. You know, that would be a massive game Monday night. This next six games, if they go three and three, they're in great shape. You look at it, you mentioned the two games coming up and then, you know, Illinois at Mesa Square, Northwestern at home, and then Wisconsin and Nebraska both on the road coming out of there. So this is a big stretch coming up. Michigan States won 10 in a row. Now they haven't played Michigan during that straight. They beat Purdue. They beat Ohio State. Boy, I'm jumping ahead to next Monday night awfully quickly. But that's that's the team, Tommy, that I had hoped when Maryland went into the Big Ten because they had played multiple times. Maryland and Michigan State had played multiple times

in the tournament. And, you know, Izzo and Gary were so close. That was the team that I hope that, would be a rival would somehow eventually become a rival because both teams would be so good. You know, Michigan State's not going to take on Maryland as a rival, and Maryland's not just going to take them on. Naturally, it would have to be because both of them are really good for a period of time. No words. Play each other during the season, play each other, during. in the tournament. Right. And they have played,

Aaron, they've played Michigan State in the Big Ten tournament already two times, right? Yeah, sounds right. Two very good games. Yes. So anyway,

all right, let's get to your column. Can we do that? Yeah, let's do that. What kind of reaction? I'll tell you what. First, for those that didn't read it,

give a quick 30 to 60 second, you know, description of the column you wrote yesterday about the Redskins. And then what I really want to know is what you heard in terms of a reaction because I think it's interesting the way people may have reacted to it.

Well, I wrote a column. It was almost a two-part column where basically I described a decision that Brian Lafamina and his marketing crew made to market the team with this campaign called We Hail. You saw video ads for it. They printed up towels with it. They had posters with it. and it didn't last very long. It was cut early in the season. And it was cut by Dan Snyder, the owner,

because he felt it was too close to the words SIG-Hile. The German. The Nazi salute. The Nazi salute. What's it mean? Hail Victory. And it actually means Hail Victory, which is one of the lines of the Redskins fight song,

Hail Victory. So, and I use that. So Snyder told them after, How long did this program run before he felt that way? Maybe a week and a half, two weeks tops. Can I just tell you some? I don't even remember it. Really?

If you go online, you can see the video ads. But you laid out, and you can lay it out now, how they use this slogan that Brian Lafamina and his crew came up with. Yeah, so basically I used that to illustrate how bizarre and difficult his job was at trying to change the thinking at Redskins Park. And then I used that. I also said that was also another knife for Bruce Allen to stick in the back of Lafamina. And that I proceeded to write based on the sources I've talked to,

that every misstep, every image of small crowds at FedEx Field, anything, even though Brian Lafamina had told Snyder, it's going to get worse before it gets better. every time it got worse, Bruce Allen was in Dan Snyder's year, you know, badmouthing him and undermining Lafamane. It was all part of his campaign to force him out,

a very successful campaign. So he, every chance he got, he badmouthed Lafamina to Snyder. And so that was the gist of the column as well. So that was basically the column. Okay. Now you want to know what kind of reaction I got?

I do. You know, because I want, I want to just make clear. We hail was the slogan that Lafamina and his group came up with, and they had a lot of things tied into this slogan, We Hail. And Snyder thought it sounded too close to Sig Heil, all right, the Nazi salute,

and asked them to drop the campaign because of that. Didn't ask them. We told them. Right, you told them to. Right. And, you know, it's funny. And I expected this because I wasn't saying in the column that Snyder was wrong.

Okay? I was just pointing out that it was a little bit, it was it was a little bit bizarre. The whole incident was bizarre and sort of illustrative of how strange things are at Redskins Park. That's something like this would unfold to this point. And the reaction

I got from people, I'd say there was about, you know, 30 or maybe 30, 35 percent who gave Snyder, who said they felt the same way, who said that they were uncomfortable with it and that they agreed with Snyder. And that's fine.

But the fact that this would unfold like this is just shows the level of dysfunction at Redskins Park. And then the majority of the people thought it was hilarious that Snyder would be offended by something. Now these are the name, the people who are offended by the name.

I mean, they would say he's offended by this, but he has a name that they believe is racist. They thought that was kind of ridiculous. There was a variety of reaction along the way. But I think most people thought it was strange and bizarre and another example of the dysfunction at Redskins Park. Was there any reaction to this when it was out there? At Redskins Park? No, when the actual slogan was tied into all of their marketing, was there any reaction from anybody a

Jewish organization or anybody that said this sounds too much like No not that I could find because look perspective is everything so everybody feels the way they're going to feel I mean we hail especially for this organization where hail to the Redskins

is the fight song and HTTR is this hashtag, you know, I would, let me just say, I don't remember this. I don't even remember this marketing program. I'm not really big, you know me. I like watching the games and talking about the games. So their ticket selling effort, I don't really usually get caught up in. And I get a lot, you know what happens when I get this stuff sent to my house?

Immediately into the trash can. I don't even open this stuff up from them anymore. Maybe I should. I'm probably missing out on some good material. Probably are. Because I get sent all the time from friends of mine, like just pieces of letters that they get from the organization about two for ones. And hey, now's the right time to buy tickets. And you can get a lower, you know, I've got a pair of lowers right now.

And you don't have interest free and all this stuff. But I would have never had I known this. I don't think I would have had that reaction. I wouldn't have either. But I'm. There was a segment of the population that said they did. and there was another segment that didn't like it, just didn't think it was a very good marketing campaign.

Well, now that I know about it through your column, you know, this is the kind of stuff. I know it's important to a business in most businesses that don't have already an existing brand or an existing platform, like a big stadium and a game every week that's on television. So I understand that this is a big part of a business. I think when it comes to these sports teams, you know, just win. Kevin, that's 20th century.

It is? Yes. Really. So if the Redskins were a 13 and 3 team last year and the year, two years ago they were 10 and 6, lost a first round playoff game, and then last year they were 12 and 4 and lost in the divisional round. They wouldn't have a sold-out house next year with or without marketing? I don't think so. Oh, I think you're, I think winning is everything in sports.

In certain situations, not every. There are some towns that don't have the built-in potential audience for its teams. NFL teams, though, Tommy, this league, the NFL, if you're in a city with an NFL team and that team starts to win, you're going to sell tickets. You're going to sell merchandise. Okay. You don't agree with me. Not this team.

Too much damage. I know what you're saying. Too much damage. And you know it's not cool among young people. Well, how does a mark for this team? Then let me, okay, so I'll concede that very likely this situation right now because of the toxic nature, because of their bumbling and stumbling for so long, that it's a slightly different situation. But how does Brian Lafamino with a we hail, or let's just say he came up with a slogan that was so benign,

but also at the same time so inspirational, benign with respect to being potentially offensive to somebody. And it was inspirational. How is that going to sell tickets or get people excited for a team that's six and ten? You're just trying to get people's attention. How is that going to get my attention if the team sucks? I can't believe you understand marketing. I do understand marketing, but I'm making the distinction here

between professional sports and a regular company with a regular product. Well, if the team sucks, you're just trying to, you're just trying to reconnect with the tradition of the team. That's why they use the wee hail. You're trying to still, but it's not going to work if the team sucks. But you have to start, you're going to convince, you have to start, you have to start somewhere. Okay. You have to start somewhere to market, why why even bother to market the team? The starting somewhere starts with, we are totally focused on building a winner the right way. But he has nothing to do with that. And so, all, he can do is try to figure out a way to get fans excited or at least to get to wake some

up people up about this team that it's fun it's fun to be there i i think as i look at this business and i don't know anything and don't have nearly enough information but i would love to know what their marketing budget is like how much they spend on things like this every year how much they spend on outbound calls how much they spend on outbound, you know, electronic media and marketing. I would love to see what that dollar amount is because you know what? I don't think it helps them at all.

I think that's foolish. I think the only thing that can truly help them is start behaving with more humility and, well, that's second to win. Build a winning product. If they win now, that stadium's still going to be, they're still going to be MTC. I concede at that point,

that this situation is slightly, different. And if you give up on marketing, then your fan base is going to be even smaller. I mean, what you think is the corporate group now? Who is this inspiring? It inspires the people that that at least stick by the team to still show up, to still buy merchandise. Okay, look, if it's inexpensive and it's little effort and then go for it, if I, if it's me, I think you are underselling the importance of the marketing. I probably am. I'm, I just don't intuitively, as I'm sitting here, having this conversation with you. And social media. And looking at We Hail, the fact that I am not only a lifelong fan of the team, but I am in the

media covering the team. And when you wrote about this and you sent me this story a day and a half ago, and I read it, I'm like, I don't even remember We Hail. Yeah, I know that, but they're not trying to reach you. You know what they're trying to do, create a social media movement. Okay. And we hail. Wouldn't winning help that? A hashtag. How much would winning, if, in terms of percentage of importance to selling tickets. Winning or catchy slogans in a marketing plan? This franchise is such an anomaly. I'm always going to say winning, okay? But now winning, you'd have to win for a long time. A long time.

You know what? You might be right about that. I don't know how long or how big they'd have to win to get back to, let's just say, where they were 15 years ago, you know, but it's not as much winning as you think. And the only reason for that is because the NFL is just so popular. People will, if they were to win and to win the right way, Tommy, let's just say, and by the way, I think it's impossible because of the way they're put together and the leadership and the ownership. I just don't think that they have a chance because of their built-in insecurities and lack of true competence to ever put together a sustained winner. So I don't think it'll happen. But if it were to happen, I think people would be there and they would be rooting for the team and they'd be watching the games in big numbers and attending the games and big numbers.

Attendance overall is almost a separate conversation because it has died in areas in which they're not. teams are winning. So how can you say it? How can you say the NFL is so popular? Well, it is. Kevin, Kevin, on television, the ratings are significantly less than where they were five or ten years ago. Yeah, but they're up from where they were last year and a year before. I mean, big deal. What does that mean? That means nothing. They're down. The TV numbers, they're down. The TV numbers as a percentage, I think, have fallen much less than the attendance numbers. Yes, they have. I'm suggesting to you that. Attendance has fallen over the past 10 years. Right. TV ratings have. fallen over the past 10 years.

They're still where advertisers. And it's still by far and away the number one television product, period. Yes, it is. Sports entertainment. And it's like having the nicest house in a neighborhood with diminishing neighborhood of property values. Yeah. Well, it's just that there are just a lot of different neighborhoods sprouting up all around

it. Yes. All these different channels. All of these different. That the next generation of sports fans would rather live in. It's the Netflix neighborhood over there. And we're still over here. the CBS, Fox, NBC, NFL neighborhood.

You know, look. I'm just saying to you, like, back to what started this. First of all, I read some of the reactions to your tweet, because I was interested to see what, because when you said, read this and I read it, what did I think I said to you? I said, you know, I don't think Snyder should be criticized for this. And you said that I'm not criticizing him for that.

And I said, okay, I understand that. But you did think it was strange. But I said, yeah, it's strange. It's strange. But it's strange for two reasons. It's strange because I, but this is a matter of perspective. I don't think, I didn't think that many people would have that reaction, but they clearly did. Some people did.

Secondly, that it could get to that point where it rolls out without him knowing it. Like I think when you have a big marketing campaign, I think that's something that the owner says, all right, what is it that you guys are getting ready to do? Let me see the creative. let me see the whole thing. That would, and I don't know if he ever had it, if he was ever involved in that. It would be difficult to believe that people wouldn't run a marketing campaign like this by him. So I don't know if he signed off on it and then changed his mind or what.

I don't have that information. I think the more interesting part of your, of your column, actually, the whole thing is interesting, actually. But I think you speak to, you know, this being another knife that Bruce Allen was able, to sort of stick in Brian Lofamina's back. Who brought Brian Lofamina to Washington? You know what?

My sources tell me that the NFL did not force him on Snyder. That's the natural assumption because that makes the most logical sense. We all made that assumption, but I think no one ever knew for sure. No. So what do you know?

Somebody who would know told me if that's the case, then Brian Lafamene is the best poker player in the world because he has insisted that that wasn't the case. Now, they were happy that if he was going to go to a team, that he went to the Redskins because they felt they needed so much help. But this was not something that was sort of like engineered by the league, according to what I know. I had heard that Dan actually liked Brian, that they, that Dan, Dan hired Brian.

Yes. And that he liked Brian. Yes. And thought that Brian could do a good job. We saw stories that say he courted Brian for a while. Okay. So obviously Bruce didn't feel the same way. No.

No, no, no, no, no. Bruce was invisible when they first brought. I mean, you didn't see Bruce up there at press conferences. He's been invisible for a while now. I know. But like I said, Kevin, when Brian Lafamina brought in the media into that conference room the first time, and started using words like transparency and truth, I thought that Bruce Allen was sitting in his office with a button,

the floor was going to collapse, and we wouldn't be seen again. The day that he referred to the Redskins as a sleeping giant, I said on the radio show, oh my God, what do Dan and Bruce think about that comment? Seriously, there's the first thing I thought of, like, the Redskins have never been referred to sleeping as anything. And I remember saying to Cooley, I think,

what in God's name do Bruce and Dan think about him basically calling us the little engine that could? Yeah, the team that no one's paying attention to. But you know what? That's sort of a glimpse of what they think in league offices because that's where Brian Lafamina came from. I know that. They clearly, you know, and this goes back to...

And remember, they didn't just get rid of Lafamina they got rid of three other guys who worked for NFL teams who were all highly respected. All brought in by Ryan. Jacksonville, the guy from Jacksonville, I don't know if it was Jake Byer. Ziff. Ziff.

I mean, it was credited with the marketing campaign that got people excited in Jacksonville. But you need marketing planes in Jacksonville. But you have, you are, you're living in the past, Kevin. Okay, that's fine. I said, I said, I readily admit, that I may be completely wrong. It's just that when it comes to this market and this team,

to me, the only thing that is going to generate any response, favorable response at this point is winning. And winning with a level of class and humility that they've just never had. That would help too. But the winning is the most important thing. Yes, it is.

Okay. So we agree on that. Well, of course. But you just, but you think side by side should be this significant. marketing push to let people know that, hey, we've got tickets or we've got this or we've got that. Listen, Kevin. Buy our hats.

Look, the Ravens are a great organization. Yes, they are. Empty seats at M&T Bank all season. And what has changed in the NFL, at least when it comes to selling tickets, is... Bat night. Yeah, well, not just Bat Night, but that's funny. That was the giveaway thing. But the idea that there was a period of time where you sold your season tickets.

and then it stopped and then you were pretty much done. Well, now you've got to sell every day. You've got to sell tickets every day of the year to get people to come to the stadium. And I can understand from a marketing standpoint why, what you just said, that for many, many years in successful NFL markets,

there weren't in more cases than not tickets available to the public for the Packer game on Sunday. No. So you do have to let people know times have changed. We do have tickets. You know, you can get a pair for Sunday's game if you want to get a pair. I understand that piece of it. And like I told, the Ravens did a marketing thing for their last two home games. They only did it on social media. It was the only place you could buy them.

Two tickets for $44. That's $22 a home game. But you didn't know where you were going to sit until you got to the stadium. This was all to appeal to millennials who liked to make. last minute decisions. They don't like to schedule their lives around other things. It's like the whole thing about watching what you want to watch on TV when you want to watch it instead of what we grew up with of a TV guide and a schedule. So, I mean, I'm just using the Ravens because I studied them a little bit as an example of what NFL teams may be facing. It'll be interesting because I have heard that they've not only interviewed candidates to replace Brian Lafamina, but that is the plan. Now, they may not end up finding the person they want, and the person they want may not decide that they want to come here.

But that's, I mentioned yesterday as part of the stuff that I talked about on Friday related to Bruce, that part of that was that this notion that Bruce got a promotion is a little bit exaggerated. He really didn't get a promotion. Here's what he did, and I've mentioned this in the column. It's my favorite line in the column. He drank Brian Lofamina's milkshake. That's what he did. Right.

All right. I want to get your thoughts on the NFL playoffs here in a moment. And I've got some... We talk about James Harden a little bit. Jesus God, that guys can score. Ferrisch Chrysler Dodge Jeep first, though. They are located in Fairfax. If you're thinking about something new,

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to prevail in the postseason, and they didn't, although the Rams played really good defense. Mike Shanahan was on with me yesterday. Talked about how the Rams defense really stepped up and completely shut down the Dallas run, which teams have not done recently. And New Orleans has a good defense. Yes. Now that you had great offensive teams who won in part because of their defense over the weekend. Yeah, but look, the narrative of the league has changed,

offense, you know, this is an offensive explosion. You've got to be creative. You've got to score. You've got to be able to do all these things like the Rams do and the Saints do and the chiefs do to win. You know, that's held up here. I mean, you know, Sunday is going to be interesting because, and I alluded to this yesterday, that the weather at Arrowhead, you're talking about low to mid single digits with brutal wind chills. Yes. On Sunday at Arrowhead in that game, Are you going to get 3835 out of that? I don't know if you're going to. By the way, I think actually Kansas City, New Orleans, the Rams,

and actually the Patriots are the fourth highest scoring team of the league. So it's your top four highest scoring teams of the league in the NFC, in the championship games. Okay, so let's break them down. Let's start with the Colts game. Well, did anything from the weekend surprise you? Well, you know, I didn't think the cult would get manhandled like they did. I thought Andrew looked terrible. Like, he looked awful and off.

Kevin, think about this. And we've talked about this because you pay more attention to the height of a quarterback than I do. I don't have as big an issue with it. I don't have as much of an issue with it anymore as I used to. I mean, because Andrew Luck is 6'4 and it seemed like every other pass was batted down. Yes, you're right. I mean, what was that about? I don't know.

He just, he looked off. To me, he looked cold. Like he was, he kept rubbing his chest. He had his hands. Look at it. When they got stopped on third down, he was trying to get to the sideline as quickly as he could. He looked uncomfortable. He really did.

But, but anyway, all right. So anything else from the weekend, were you, did you, I mean, did you, I thought the Eagles were, Mike said yesterday on the show that at 14, nothing, he's still. felt pretty good about the Saints, and he turned out to be right, I thought they were in deep trouble. I thought the Saints to win, but I thought the Eagles might win, and only because I've got caught up in the Nick Falls narrative. And I think, look, maybe there's not a chance now, although I wouldn't count it out, but I think if he'd have beat the Saints, he's a starting quarterback for the Eagles moving forward. I don't. But it certainly would have been a much more serious conversation. Listen, I,

somebody who I know who's pretty plugged into the team in Philly doesn't mean he's right, says that the coaches prefer Foles. And that's because it's almost like a Colt McCoy situation. Falls does the game plan exactly the way Peterson wants it done. Basically runs the game, the way the coaches want it run. And whence in this season got caught up in a little bit of freelancing. And there was a little bit of tension between the coaching staff. The team wasn't as good or as healthy, too, when Wentz was quarterback, including himself.

And take it for what it's worth. But I think there may be a lot of sentiment in the locker room and on the coaching staff for Nick Foles. Maybe not enough to make him the starter. But I think if they had won that game, it would have been. Foles wants to stay, you know. He says, you know, there's a quote yesterday, I would love to lead a team. starter thing leading a team impacting a locker room that's why we play the game to impact people to create an atmosphere uh you know whatever we decide whatever contract we sign we will always honor that

contract years wise and then we go from there um i i don't believe that they're going to pick foals over wence i you know i just don't i think wence is an elite talent i don't feel the same way about nick foles i asked mike yesterday on the show i was curious as to where he had him rated in the 2012 draft. And he said, not very high. He said he had him in the senior bowl and he wasn't, you know, I'm paraphrasing, but he was largely unimpressed. And then he had that year of 19 touchdowns, two picks under Chip Kelly with, you know, a lot of read option and a lot of that stuff going on, a lot of the college stuff. And, you know, he was blown away by that. But he said, Wence is an elite talent. They're going to stick with Wence. Or he said, I would certainly

stick with Wence. Well, we'll see. They probably will. But Nick Foles is going to start somewhere. Yeah, I mean, I guess he will. Yeah, I guess he will. Where's he going to start? Jacksonville needs a quarterback desperately. You know, I'm just, I'm going through the teams because I can't really think of this. I think Denver still needs a quarterback. Keenham's not the answer in Denver.

Cincinnati's going to need a quarterback here shortly. God, what are the Ravens going to do next year? Lamar Jackson. They're going to start Lamar Jackson, which by the way makes RG3 a more likely backup to Jackson because the offense is going to... But if he wants to run that. You know, I saw, I saw, I saw, Miami needs a quarterback. I saw the Ravens play a couple of times in person this year with Lamar Jackson. He's got a long way to go. Oh, yeah. A long way to go to being NFL quarterback. That's not a knock on the kid. It's just the reality. You know what's going to be interesting, Aaron?

Does Arizona trade out a number one for somebody who desperately wants Haskins or a quarterback? Or do they pick the quarterback and move on from Rosen? It's going to depend. It depends on A, who they like and who Kingsbury like specifically. It's got to depend on who King. Well, and what they can get for Rosen. Kingsbury loves Kyler Murray. Yes.

Yeah. And that's the Redskins quarterback, right? We'll see. Do the Redskins trade for Rosen? I'm a Rosen fan. I like Rosen, and he was the youngest of all those quarterbacks. So I think he's got the biggest upside. He was the youngest age-wise?

I think so. But, you know, there were definitely some baggage and some red flags on Rosen. Yes, they were. He went reading all those stories about him. He is the smartest guy in the room. I thought at times he looked pretty good. Didn't see a lot of Arizona, obviously, but what were his, I mean, They were in some of these games late.

They also got blown out a ton. He threw for 2,200 yards, 11 touchdowns, 14 interceptions in his rookie season. Sacked, he was sacked 45 times. Oh, my God. In one game? Oh, my God. Was that the league lead in getting sacked? 45 times is a hell of a lot of sacks to take.

Remember the Redskins cardals? Deshawn Watson, that's right. He, it's 62 times. Now, Rosen didn't start. all of the games. He didn't start early. Right. He was sacked 45 times, which was seventh most in the league, and he started,

uh, let's see how many games he started this year. This slow. Josh Rosen started 13 games. You got it faster. 13 games. Remember when the Redskins opened the season and they beat the Cardinals? Sam Bradford. Remember how good

that felt if you were a Redskins fan? I mean, that was a bit of a surprise the way they dominated. Well, that's an interesting question. What was the best moment of the season where you felt the most optimistic? It had to beat a Green Bay home game. I think it's a Dallas game at home. I think when they won that Dallas game at home to get to, at that point, was it four and two at that point?

I think it was four and two. They had beaten the Panthers. They'd beaten the Packers. They'd beaten the Cardinals. Dallas was their fourth win. To get to four and two. Okay. By the way, it was a thrilling win.

It was a, and... Well, I guess you're always beating Dallas. And then they went to New York the following week and beat the Giants. And the score really wasn't indicative of how much the Redskins dominated that game. They won by a touchdown. You're five and two at that point. Actually, it was really those two games in a row, the three games in a row, the Panthers, Cowboys, and Giants where you're like,

okay, they're doing things that winning teams do, which is nice to see. But you know what? I always felt like there was a limit. because of their offense. Yeah. And you know what was interesting? It was their win over Tampa that was probably the biggest red flag. No doubt.

As to what was coming. Especially the fact that it had come off a game in which they got run out of the building by the first decent offensive team they had faced since New Orleans. And that was Atlanta. Atlanta came in and blew them out. I mean, that game was never in doubt from the start. And then here's Tampa rolling up 500 yards of offense, but just missing field rolls and,

turning the ball over in the red zone. You know, guys going into the end zone fumbling, basically. And it was, I thought that was a red flag game, too. Yeah, it really was. And that's why you weren't here last week. I didn't do this with you on the show. But, you know, when people say that they're close, I'm like, close to what? Well, there's six and three.

No, the truth is, with everybody healthy, they were about to be six and four. So start there, because they weren't going to win the Houston game. We did this last week. Right. They're not going to come. come from, this was a team that wasn't going to come from behind to beat anybody. So I think if they stayed healthy, if Alex Smith stayed healthy. You said nine and seven, right?

And that would have gotten you more likely than not a wild card unless one of those wins was against the Cowboys on Thanksgiving and you had to sweep and then you would have won in division and you would have hosted Seattle instead of going to Chicago. Personally, I think it would have been eight and eight. I think that they would have lost to the Cowboys, lost to the Eagles. That giant game, I mean, you can talk about health. all you want. They were down 40 to nothing against a team that has talent and was playing well. Yes, and ran the ball down their throat. Right. I mean, I'm not so sure they would have won the

Jacksonville game without Josh Johnson playing. Seriously. Anyway, that's it on that. I wanted to talk about, and you had an interesting idea. Last night, James Hardin went for 57. The night after, by the way, he went one for 17 from behind the arc in the loss, the previous night, two. the Orlando Magic. Last night against Memphis, he went off. He had 57 in the game. He was 17 to 33 from the field, six for 15 from behind the arc, and got to the free throw line 18 times and made 17 free throws. He also had nine assists. This is the thing. If you look at his, you know, if you look at his stats every night, it's not like he's just gunning it. The night that he, two games ago, the triple double with 43 against, I think it was the calves.

He had like 12 rebounds and 10 assists. We're seeing a level of scoring. Here it is. I just got it. Tommy, in the last four, eight, 11 games. Oh, that's not true. I'm wrong about that. My fault.

He had this stretch of 40s in a row. He had five straight games of 40 or more. And then he went 38, 32, and then went 42, 43, 38, and then 50. and then 57. This guy hasn't scored in a game under 30 since December 11th. Wow. All right. So that's exactly 17 games without a game in which he didn't score at least 30.

I mean, we're seeing scoring from him at a level like, I mean, since when? Gurvin? Well, again, the three-point shot has changed everything. Jordan? So it's hard to judge what we've seen in scoring before because the three-point shot has become the dominant shot. Listen, it's not my kind of game. You know, basically I call glorified horse.

You know, like I've told you before, he's just shooting the ball. Yeah, that's your favorite thing. You know? Steph Curry, he's just shooting it. Well, that's all they're doing. It's just shooting the ball. Right. But look, the one, two things I, one thing I always remember about James Hardin that gets me going is that the Wizards could have traded Bradley Beal for him about four years ago.

Yeah, that may be the worst trade Ernie didn't make. Well, you know, if the reports are right, as I recall it, ownership next it. Ownership, Ted, Ted, nexted it. So maybe this one was out. of Ernie's hands to be fair. Maybe Ted just ran the analytics on it and said not a good trade. And Ernie was telling him to trade. Or maybe he didn't want to pay James Hardin. I don't know the story. Michael Lee was the one who wrote the story. Okay. So refresh my memory. Was it about because you just probably hit the nail on the head that he didn't want to pay Hardin? That may have been

the case. I don't recall exactly what the reasoning was. But at the time, Bradley Beal was a lot cheaper. And I'm sorry, as much as Bradley Beal is a terrific player. And right now, without John Wall as baggage on the court is fun to watch. But he's not James Harden. We're watching something historic with James Harden. It may not be my kind of basketball, but in today's NBA, it's dominant basketball.

It's winning basketball. So right now, Hardin is averaging 34.8 points per game. All right? that would, if it held up, it would be the 11th highest scoring average for a season of all time. Of course, Wilts got the top four. Right. You know, the 50 a game in 61, 62, 62, 63, 38.3. 38.3 in 6060.

God, I mean, these scoring averages. And then Jordan's got the fifth. He averaged 37 points a game essentially in 86, 87. Then there's another Chamberlain season. then there's Rick Barry in 6667, which, by the way, was an ABA season. All right, that's not an NBA season, Rick Barry in 6667, am I right? No, you're wrong. That's an NBA season?

That's an NBA season? Really? Yes. What NBA team in 6667 was he with? The Warriors. He was with the Warriors in 6667? I'm pretty sure. I guarantee it's an NBA season. Go ahead, look it up.

Yep. Yeah. You're correct. Yeah. The San Francisco Warriors. Yeah. And then it was the next season he played with the Oakland, Oaks and then the Washington Caps in the ABA before a couple of years later coming back

with the Golden State Warriors. Okay, so then Kobe had a big season in 0506, Jordan in 8788. So right now, and then Kareem was 10th, right now Hardin's season is 11th all time in the process of 11th all time. Although his average, right now his average this month, he's averaging, he's averaging 42 a game right now this month. Last month he averaged 37 a game. Let me ask you a question.

What did you average in 92? In 92? Yeah. I don't know what I averaged in 92. I was long gone from my competitive playing days in 92. The so the stretch he's

on right now going back to the beginning of December is you know, it's not a will-all time but it's approaching the top three list. Yeah. And for a guy who's not a big man, it's in a different category. And I put this question to you before the show. I would have thought Gervin would have had a 35 average season.

Gervin's best season was 33.14 in the 7980 season, which I think was the season that he and David Thompson went down to the last day. And you do realize if you took and adjusted for today's scoring that he probably would have averaged 45 or 48 points a season. Gervin wouldn't. Yes. Gervin was not a long-range shooter, really. I mean, he could.

Yeah, he could. But his game was, you know. That's because, I mean. That's the way the game was. Yeah, it's the way the game was. Agreed. So, I mean, you asked me a question, though. Yeah, before the show started, I put to you the question with the notion that at one time,

Oklahoma City had these three guys on the roster. Kevin Durant, Russell Westbrook and James Harden at the same time. time. If you could have one of those three on your team, which one would you have? And I agree with that, because Durant can do more for you. He's the most versatile scorer of this era. He's one of the most versatile scorers we have ever seen. He is unstoppable in terms of his ability to score in various ways. You cannot block his shot. He can shoot at 6-11, whatever he is, out to ridiculous ranges. He can post you up. He can drive. it floaters. He can dunk on you. He's the most versatile

scorer in the game. You know I'm partial to Westbrook when it comes to of these three guys. He's the killer of the group. He's the killer competitor of the group. And I am always drawn to those guys. And I know that Westbrook has hurt his team in different situations, but I, Durant's the answer to the question. Ask me about Durant or Hardin, though. I'm sorry, Hardener Westbrook. Yeah, let me, okay, let's take Durant out of the pitch because we both agree that Durant is the guy

we'd want. Okay, now you're down to two. You're down to Hardener Westbrook. Really? Hardin's quit in the postseason before Tommy. There is no way. No way, Westbrook. Westbrook will die on the court before quitting.

To me, this is the guy right now in the league that I'm rooting for the most when they get to the postseason. They can't beat Golden State. And I don't even know if they can beat Houston, although I'd love to see an Oklahoma City Houston series in the postseason. Hardin is essentially walked off the floor in a playoff game. Westbrook is a different level of competitor. Hardin's a ridiculous score.

And like Curry, the combination of ball handling and shooting in one body is incredible to watch. Incredible to watch. I think that... But give me Westbrook. I think that you could surround Hardin with people. who could help you win. I think any team that Westbrook is on is ultimately going to be a self-destructive team. You know what?

I like the mix with Paul George. I think this may be his best, you know, Robin or Batman, however you want to put it. He and Durant, there was always something missing there. George has that killer gene, too. And you can see, because Westbrook this year has deferred much more than he has, as much as he has since Durant was there. I actually like their team a lot. I like their team a lot.

You asked me, I understand that Hardin is probably the answer for most people. I would take Westbrook. I would take Hardin. But I agree with what you said about Hardin. He's liable to walk right off the floor in a playoff game if things aren't going his way. He's really, he's an odd personality.

Yes. You know, and he's an incredible player to watch. I love watching him play. Don't get me wrong, but I don't know, man. To me, I want guys like Westbrook, and I know that sometimes he's going to hurt you. I like the mix this year. Maybe it'll change.

Maybe it won't. I don't know how long somebody can play that hard for, you know. I don't know that anybody plays harder than him. I'll agree with you there. He plays 100 miles an hour all the time, which hurts him. Right. I'm going through last year's postseason for Hardin. He had a good series in the Western Conference Finals.

He did. He had a couple of awful shooting nights against Golden State in that series. But it was the year before, right? The year before were basically, you know, he threw in the towel against the Spurs. Yeah, that was the game. That final game where they got eliminated by the Spurs, he basically, for all intents and purposes, just checked out. you know and that wasn't like they were a sweep it was a six game series right and they were getting

blown out and he gave up westbrook would never give up ever uh but hardin's amazing Tommy I mean we are really you know with curry and Hardin and Durant we're really watching like in and I know part of it is the three point line there's no doubt about that I understand that but in terms of just creating your own offense on any part of the floor and a lot of that has to do with the ability to stretch the floor, you know, with range. Because when you're five feet behind the three-point line, the whole floor, it just becomes a more wide-open floor. But we're watching like three of the greatest scores in the history of the game right now.

Yes, we are. Yes, we are. But you use the words, creating your own offense. That's not attractive to me. I know it isn't. The Warriors don't do it as much. The Warriors run a five. Well, they can't afford to.

They run more five-man offenses. They have too much talent. Everybody touches the ball. They have to. Yeah. And they have a coach who can get them to do it. Yeah. You know, I guess I left out LeBron in terms.

I mean, LeBron's also one of the all-time great scores, too. Yes, he is. Even though I will always, and we've had this conversation before, I will always think of LeBron more in the Magic category than the Michael category. I agree. But he's still a great score. Magic was not an elite scorer. No.

Like LeBron is. But anyway, this is, you know, it's an interesting. interesting NBA season. What else do you have for me today? I got nothing else for you, buddy. I'm just hoping to get through the day without going to the hospital again. Me too. I mean, is the infection in your finger okay? It's 85% better than what it was. 85% better? Yes. That's what they always say. They're looking for a number. Like if something hurts, on a pain, on a scale, one through 10. Yeah, they always ask you that. Are you somebody that feels pain or do you have a high threshold?

You know, I don't think I have a high threshold, but I lived with knee pain for more than a decade. So it's, you know, it's amazing what you get used to. You know, and if you live with chronic pain for a long time, you get used to it, and you don't realize how bad it was until it's gone. So I generally don't think of myself as a high threshold for pain, but then I lived with pain You've been through a lot here the last year and a half, two years with your knees replaced

and all the infections and different things that you have. You've been through a lot. And still I show up. You still show up. You know what? That's one thing we always did. We always showed up. Somehow, some way we always showed up.

All right. I will see you back here on Thursday and we can talk more about the championship games. And I'll get your picks on those games then. Thanks to Aaron. Thanks to Tommy. Thanks to all of you. Have a great day.