The Kevin Sheehan Show - Gruden Speaks On QBs

Episode Date: March 26, 2019

Kevin and Thom open the show with last thoughts on Maryland's basketball season before getting into it on Tom Izzo. Jay Gruden spoke in Arizona today....the guys discussed what he had to say about the Redskins' offense, the QBs in the draft and more. Then, is Gronk the greatest tight end in NFL history? The boys debate that. <p> </p><p>Learn more about your ad choices. Visit <a href="https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices">podcastchoices.com/adchoices</a></p> Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You want it. You need it. It's what everyone's talking about. The Kevin Sheehan Show. Now here's Kevin. You're listening to The Sports Fix. All right. I'm here. Tommy's in today. This show is presented by Window Nation. If you're in the market for Windows, call 86690 Nation or go to Window Nation.com and please tell them that we told you to call. did a lot on Maryland yesterday, and I said yesterday on the show, Tommy, that that's going to be it for Maryland talk. But I forgot that you were going to be here today, and I do want to get your thoughts on the game and then the season sort of as a whole, and maybe sort of the state of Maryland basketball, from your perspective, a columnist in this town for many, many years, who's written about Maryland over the years. Yes, thank you. Thank you. That's awfully kind of good.

Yeah, I wanted to make sure everybody knew your Christmas. credentials. Yes. Good morning to you. How are you? I'm doing great. Good. You excited about opening day? Yes, I am. Very much so. I figured you would be. Sherser versus DeGrom, absolutely. You know, coincides with, you know, well, actually they don't play Friday. They play Thursday. Friday, we have the Sweet 16 in town. I know. I'll be going to that too. I will be too. Yeah. Maybe we can see each other before. I doubt it. Want to get a beer or two before? I doubt it. Come on. Let's do that. We haven't done that in a long time. I'll be with my professional cohorts. I don't think I can have any professional cohorts. I don't think I could be seen with you then.

All right. Go ahead. What do you think? What'd you think about them going out in the round of 32? You know, the game against LSU, the state of the program. I was surprised at the reaction following the LSU game that people were so willing to pat them on the back for coming back. I was a little surprised at that. I mean, you know, I mean, you know, you know, you got to give them credit. They really fought hard. I mean, I didn't understand that. For one thing, you can't judge the game. You have to judge the season because your season just ended.

I think they're connected. And if you judge the season, it's a disappointment. I mean, there's nobody who deserves a slap on the back. There's no add-a-boys there. That was my reaction. I don't think it was that much different than my reaction. I thought the comeback was great. I thought that they played a team that wasn't any better than they were.

No. And that I called the season a good season, but not a great season. It was a disappointment because we expected more. This was a team that I think had Sweet 16 talent. It should have been ultimately higher than a six seed, which may have prevented a second round exit. It was a good season for a lot of reasons, but it was not a great season. And anybody after the game the other day that roots for Maryland basketball, that says that was a great season or buys into it from, you know, it's fine if the coaching staff

and the players want to describe it in any way they want to describe it. But as a fan and one that pays attention closely, it was a good season, not a great season. A great season isn't a season in which you exit the tournament in the first weekend when you've got talent that says you should have been playing in the second weekend. In other words, you can't, you can't, And we're back to the situation where we have no evidence, and, you know, I hate to keep bringing it in on the coach, but, you know, he's the common denominator in this. We have no evidence in big moments that any Mark Turgeon team can play big. We just don't have any. There's nothing.

I mean, you know, this was a big moment. I mean, you know, there's no track record that said, well, you know, Turgeon can get. get the most out of his players. The players, you could argue, underachieved. I mean, LSU was beatable. I forget who their assistant coach is who coached a team. You know, I've been told he's a pretty good coach. Right. But they lost their head coach.

Their head coach is under federal investigation. You know, and talent-wise, like you said, they're no better than Maryland. This was a winnable game. Remember the formula I put together? Yes, how's that doing? It actually isn't doing poorly. Really? formula that I had put together last week to sort of narrow the field of 68 down to the five or

six teams that could legitimately win it, included teams that could score, that were, you know, high average scoring teams, efficient scoring teams, good guard place teams, and teams with, you know, good coaching. And, you know, I eliminated LSU on that final line, which was they got to have a good coach because they're coaching situation, but they've been well coached. I actually thought that, you know, both of the games that I watched them in. They were ready and they were prepared, but the teams, I got it down to six teams before that good coach thing, and it was Carolina, Tennessee, Auburn, Michigan State, LSU, all of whom were in the Sweet 16, and then Iowa State was the last one. And they got beat by Ohio State in the first round, a game that I guaranteed wouldn't happen,

although then again, I gave it out as a smell test pick when I saw the point spread. I also was dead wrong about Washington. You think? Yeah. Dead wrong. You know, I might want to point out, not just dead wrong. I mean, you know, you, when I picked Washington, and I had no idea what I was doing. Where did you pick them to get to? Where are our brackets, any, are there? I still got mine in my pocket with me.

I got yours right here. Hold on. Let me hand you your, there it is. But, look, I pick Washington to beat Utah State. I don't think I picked them to go beyond that. But, and I didn't really know what I was doing. But you didn't just say that's wrong. Yeah.

You ridiculed it. I did. You just like ridicule me. You called me an idiot. Well, I also said that you would likely win this bracket contest because usually it's the person that doesn't know anything that wins because you can't predict these games. You know, somebody who is listening, who's a friend of mine, said, called you a basketball fascist.

That's pretty good. I had seen them play most recently over the final week of the season and then in the Big Ten, big ten, in the Pac-12 tournament. and I thought they were god-awful. Now, Utah State could not score if their life depended on it in the half court. And Washington was a good defensive team. We saw them get completely, you know, annihilated by North Carolina. Which I picked North Carolina and beat Washington.

Very good. On your bracket, how many of the Sweet 16 do you have? I don't know. You don't know? No. Well, it's right in front of you. Why don't you count them up? Do you want me to do it for you?

You don't know what to do, okay? I mean, you don't even know where to look. Go ahead. Call me an idiot again. You had Duke Virginia Tech. All right, that's two. You had Temple. They're not there. Michigan State 3, Syracuse, no.

Florida State 4. Texas Tech, Michigan. All right, 5, 6. You had Virginia and Irvine. Irvine didn't make it. You had Nova, Tennessee, Tennessee. You had UNC Auburn. You have, you've got 12.

You had Houston, Kentucky. You've got 12 of the Sweet 16. That's good. All right. I have UVA, Purdue, Tennessee, UNC, Auburn. Kentucky, Duke, Michigan State, Gonzaga, and Texas Tech in Michigan. I have 11. So I'm doing better than you.

You're doing better than I. You are. And Aaron, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten. Aaron's got ten of the sweet 16. So he's got ten. I've got 11. You've got 12. Aaron, that's not good.

My final four. I took too many random upsets there. My final four is still completely. intact. And so is mine. And your final four is intact. I've got the all-ACC final four. You do. You have the all-ACC final four. I've got Michigan State, Michigan, UVA, UNC, and Aaron has Duke Gonzaga, Tennessee, Kentucky. So there you go. It's, yeah, I was dead wrong about Washington, but my little formula here has produced some potential winners. Has CBS contacted you about using it in future broadcast? No, they have not. By the way, this is, this is going to be a great, it would have been,

and off the charts weekend if marijuana was in the Sweet 16. It would have been great. I mean, I talked about it yesterday. That's the missed. That's what was so upsetting. It's upsetting that they didn't advance to the Sweet 16. A whole population would have woke up and said, wow, Maryland basketball. Exactly.

The missed opportunity for a program that needs a bit of a jolt. Yeah. You know, and playing in Capital One Arena, you know what it would have been like there on Friday. It would have been fabulous. But as it is, it's still going to be cool. to have it. And one of the things I wrote in my column last Friday was, it's a hell of a week for sports in D.C., which started Sunday night with a nationally televised boxing match at the MGM National Harbor, which I covered.

Who fought? Lamont Peterson fought. How did he do? He got hammered. He retired at the end of the fight. How old is he now? He's 35. He's been around a long time.

Right. Yeah. He's been a great fighter. And he's been around a long time. a really good show. They had a good crowd. And so in this week, you got boxing. You had the Yankees come to town Monday night for the exhibition game. You've got the home opener Thursday, the Nationals and the Mets, DeGrom versus Scherzerzer. And then you got the Sweet 16 in D.C. That's a hell of a week. Right. And, you know, at the Sweet 16, you don't, you don't have the

local team that you would have had with Maryland. I mean, Virginia Tech's not a local team, clearly, but there are a lot of Virginia Tech alum that live in the market. And that, you know, that's going to be a bit of a draw. I don't know how much the Virginia Tech alum base is into basketball. It's a distant second or third to football and spring football, I'm sure. But, you know, that helps. But really the draw now that Maryland isn't there is Zion Williams. Yes.

That was almost in town. Barely. Yes. You know, Aaron told me. I'll bet you the price of those tickets would have dropped dramatic. So I mentioned this yesterday because my son was following it. When Maryland beat Belmont, the price skyrocketed. You couldn't get into the building for less than $800 a seat for a one-off in the rafters.

I mean, to buy the package for the weekend, lower level, $5,000. But anyway, the price has dropped a little bit when Maryland lost to LSU. But still, you've got Duke and Zion Williamson, and you've got Virginia Tech, which is... For the first time in 52 years. In the Sweet 16? Yes. I didn't know that. Yeah.

But I wonder if their football fan base cares as much about this right now. I mean, they have a good team with a really good coach. Yes, they do. Who may be leaving. Yeah. But just as an aside, I don't want to get hung up on this. I do not, and somebody mentioned this to me on Twitter, why I didn't spend more time talking about Virginia Tech.

I do not consider Virginia Tech to be a local. I'm sorry. They're not a local. big source of debate. I mean, because what is a local? Some people would argue that, you know, do you base it on your listening base or do you base it on geography? What do you base it on? I base it on geography. Well, I do too. I mean, but some people would say, well, if a lot of your listeners are Virginia Tech, then that's your local. But you have more Penn State. I think you, well, actually, that's not true. Penn State's got a ton of alum in the market. Do we sit here and

talk Penn State football? No, I agree with you. They're not local. And Penn State's a shorter trip than Virginia Tech. Well, Virginia's a shorter trip than Virginia Tech. Well, yeah, a lot more. I mean, I don't even consider, I guess the way I've always thought about Virginia Tech is I do know that after Maryland and Mason, right, Aaron, it's Maryland one, Mason two in terms of alums in the D.C. Metro area. And then I think it is Virginia Tech three. I think Virginia, I think the posted this 10 years ago. And if you find it, and it may, who knows, the update. may provide different results, but it makes sense that a commuter school like Mason, and Maryland, obviously.

Especially Mason with all the growth they've had in the past 10 years. Exactly. That Maryland and Mason would be one and two. But I think Virginia Tech was three in terms of alums. I think Penn State's four. I could believe that. I think Penn State's four. Part of that, too, is that Penn State, you've got 40,000 undergrad, you know, in State College

alone. Anyway, got sidetracked there. Duke almost lost. And Aaron mentioned this to me yesterday that the TV ratings for the weekend were the highest in how many years? I think it was like the third highest in 30 years or something like that.

I can believe it. But you know why that was, Tommy? Is that you didn't have those second round matchups after a bunch of first round upsets because you didn't have a lot of first round upsets. No. And what happens is you get those first round upsets that everybody's so thrilled about.

Oh, my God. Did you see, you know, did you see the Wofford upset or did you see the UC Irvine? and that was it. But when they get to the second round games, you don't want to see UC Irvine playing, you know, St. Mary's. Right. You know, you don't want to see that.

No. So you had great second round matchups with power schools and big names. And you had a classic game. The Duke UCF game was a classic game. I watched it on a computer screen ringside at the fight. No, you did. It really was a spectacular game. And they, I didn't feel.

I know a lot of people feel, you know, Duke got a kind whistle and Barrett pushed off. I didn't see anything egregious in the end of that, other than UCF not making a tip follow that probably 95 times out of 100 goes in. Yeah. You know, and it just didn't in that particular situation. Now, one of the things about the Sweet 16 is Tom Izzo coming to town. Okay, so you, I have not talked about this, and in part because when it happened, I didn't see it until like a day or two later. I have not, Aaron, I haven't talked about this on the show, right? No, you haven't.

Okay, so somebody sent me something on Twitter that said you wrote about it. I have not read what you wrote, so I'll start by asking you what you wrote about Izzo. Well, here, I'll read you my lead, and I'll give you an idea. Okay. Michigan State Strongman, Tom Izzo, will be coming to town this week as part of the NCAA tournament East Regionals at the Capitol One Arena. It hasn't been determined yet if extra D.C. police will be assigned

to protect his players from their beloved coach. That gives you an idea of what this column is about. I mean, I ripped them. I ripped them a new one. I said this is unacceptable. What's unacceptable behavior is that, what he did in front of thousands of people, and then failing to recognize the need to apologize for it in a post-game press conference. I mean, that's even worse.

To me, that means Tom iso, you know, has no accountability and is answerable to nobody. Because to me, what he did was not yelling at a player. that was uncontrolled rage. I mean, there were, there were, there were two times where his players had to grab him and hold him back. That's unacceptable. He was in a rage. I understand yelling at a player,

although I'm not necessarily crazy about that, but he was out of control. And in any situation like that, that's unacceptable behavior from one adult to another, in any environment, save for a military boot camp. You know, I'm going to start with what you said about his post-game comments because my only, my only disappointment from this, because I went back after the fact and watched all of this on YouTube, including his comments, is I thought that he came off as too defensive, and I don't think he needed to be. I would preface with what I'm going to say about it with, and I think you know this, I'm a huge Tomizzo fan.

And so am I. Huge fan. I've always been as someone, and you too, as someone who really appreciates, you know, basketball and well-coached basketball, I think he's not one of the best. I think he is the best. I've always felt that way. I'm a fan. I've watched him a lot over the years. So perhaps that's why I don't really understand the reaction, especially from sports people, you know, people who are familiar with him. I guess I understand to a certain degree that a casual sports fan that's tuning into the tournament and they don't watch a lot of college basketball or I can understand I guess why they may have been uncomfortable with it. But to be honest with you, Tommy, when I looked it up on YouTube after hearing some of the reaction, I didn't think it was that bad. Did you think he was in control? I watch him all the time so I know he was in control. I don't think he was in control.

This wasn't the most unique thing I've ever seen from Izzo. I watch I watch Michigan State a lot. He gets all twisted up all the time. His face contorts, you know, he clenches his fists. He gets into players' faces. You know, Bruce Pearl does the same thing. Frank Martin does the same thing. We've seen Sabin go off in the last year.

John Gruden go off on Derrick Carr. Hell, I mean, forget about Bobby Knight because he's in a category all by himself. but our beloved Gary Williams, if you didn't know him or you didn't watch college basketball, you would have thought that he was close to losing it and coming unglued at times on the sideline, right? Yes, but you would have thought that. But he never did. But it's, but it doesn't mean it's acceptable behavior. I didn't think, well, let me just start with this.

I didn't think visually it was so awful or so unique. That's me. That was my reaction. I didn't think that. My reaction to the reaction is, is, I mean, I'm not going to, I don't want to preach and turn this into, you know, the softening of America conversation or the problem that younger people and their parents have with, you know, who have coddled them and they've entitled them. And I'm not going to preach about my belief that too many young people today are kept from facing adversity and learning how to deal with adversity on their own and advocate for themselves. and instead relying on parents and people who, you know, tend to be offended by just about everything.

That's not what I'm going to say. I don't care about that stuff in this case. I would just say that Tomizzo has a track record and you are big on track record. Always have been, right? Yes. You are big on track record. He has one and it's mostly excellent. Beyond the fact that he's a Hall of Fame coach, a great coach, beyond that, his player's current and former mostly love and respect him. And by the way, many of them, including he's, Aaron Henry, the recipient the other day, came to his defense. You know Izzo has been a different recruiter over the years. He doesn't chase the top guys necessarily. He recruits certain types of kids. Gary Williams did the same thing to a certain degree, but Izzo does it exclusively. He recruits players that he feels can handle him and the system, and they tend to be tougher-minded kids. He's up front about that. Tommy, remember? I had him, you were not in that day. And I remember this because this is one of my favorite interviews ever.

I had Izzo on the show. He was promoting something. I had asked for him. He came on the show. And after starting with, you broke my heart with the Cory Lucius shot. And him talking about the Gary Williams relationship, I asked him about the kind of kid he recruits and how he is able to do what he does without consistently getting top five, top 10 classes.

and he described the kind of kid he recruited and explained how he is up front with the kids and the parents about the expectations when you come to Michigan State, how demanding he is and how he will handle them as a coach. Does he sometimes look like he's unhinged? Did he look like he was about to come unglued the other day? I guess he did if you don't watch him a lot. Kevin, that's not fair. That's not fair. It is.

No, it's not. I'll tell you why. nobody knows him more than his players. Two of his players felt the need to grab him. It's happened before. And pull him back. It's happened before. I'm not saying it's totally unique.

What do you think happens in practice? If that happens behind closed, if that happens in front of thousands of people, what the heck do you think happens in practice? Let me just finish. And let me tell you, no, let me tell you another thing. You didn't let me finish. Well, go ahead. I was honest with you.

I was almost done. Well, and the other thing is, I mean, In every walk of life, the people who are abused are the worst people to ask about the abusers. I was just going to say that. I was just going to say that you might say that you might say that, you know, the fact that all of his players current and former came to his defense the other day is not an indication of anything because sometimes the intimidation continues for a lifetime, that they are in fear of him. Now, as a keen observer of the human condition, which you are, and I fancy myself to be at times, all right, and by the way, understanding what his track record is, I personally didn't see Draymond Green or Aaron Henry or any of his players former or current their responses to be responses out of fear. I thought that they were genuine. That was my reaction to it. I could be completely wrong. And Tommy, I will also say that maybe, maybe he's gotten to an age where he is getting close

to becoming unhinged in doing something physically that he would regret. I don't believe that he is. I never thought that Gary Williams or anybody, you know, that, I mean, Bobby Knight, yes. I put Bobby Knight in a separate category. I think he's more aware

and more under control than you think, but that's my gut based on watching him very closely for many years. Who knows? Maybe he is on the verge of blowing a gasket. He could be. I don't think he is. That's my view. All I know is that his players were worried. His players were clearly worried. Players have done that with him before with the clenched fists and I can see the look on his face. They held him back. They pulled him back. It's happened before. Really? How many coaches have you ever seen that happen to where the players feel

the need to step in physically? Well, first of all, when you say physically, they didn't restrain him. They pulled him back. They pushed him. back a little bit. No, no, no. And they said, we got this. No, when he got, we'll handle this. When he got out of his chair and lunged, do you know what you usually, what he usually, what was the kid, McQuaid was the one who pulled him. Yeah, the two seniors. He pulled him back. Do you know what you usually see with iso so much more, you know, after these incidents, which again, if you've watched him, you know, you see him go off on the sidelines, face contorted, twisting body clenched fists he's got the same reaction when he is pissed off with the with the player and

I loved by the way the way he described why he blew up the Aaron Henry saying you know he basically said Aaron Henry kept on saying my bad my bad and he said at some point you get to the point where you're damn right it's your bad enough of the my bads but um I I what was I going to say? You didn't need to do that without looking like a homicidal maniac well I'm just my my point is if you've watched him a lot. You've seen similar reactions, and it does at times look like, and we've seen it with other coaches. Frank Martin's the perfect example. Bruce Pearl looked like he was about to go off the other day in a game that they were up by 20 in. The Auburn game, who did Auburn blow out in the second round, Kansas? I just personally, based on his track record, I don't see him as

on the verge of being unhinged. By the way, if it were a coach that I had no familiarity with, I would wonder if that coach is nuts. But because I've watched Izzo and a lot of you that are listening have watched Michigan State and I'm not expecting him for that to go beyond where it went. It was an, oh, to me, it was an unacceptable moment that required an apology. And I don't think it required an apology. Isow show the arrogance of, of quite the Michigan State program. I thought he was too defensive. No, he was too arrogant in his post-game press conference. I thought he was defensive and he didn't need to be. This notion that, that, I hate to be your boss, he tells the reporter. Let me tell you something. That was defensive. Let me tell you something. If my boss

had lunged at me like that, they'd get a shot right in the mouth, right in the mouth. Well, you know what? You know what's interesting about that? A couple, two points. One, by the way, don't think that I believe that this is the only way to get a message across. I think it's isos a way to get a message across. I think these players knew it when they recruited, and I think they know him and more times than not it ends with smiles in a lot of hugs with iso and his players over the years if you've watched it and a lot of laughs too but there are other ways to communicate i understand that and i'm not necessarily an advocate of people who scream like that and get completely out of control to try to get their point but i also again i know his track record

i know what his players think of him i know what kind of coach he is so i'm not going to be critical of it um then with respect to the to the post game i did think he was a bit defensive. And I do think that he, you know, that comment that you said he just made about your boss came off as too defensive. I didn't think he needed to be. Last thing is, you know, with some of these coaches, and I don't think Izzo would ever be in this category, because I think his players respect him and love him too much. But one of these coaches, one of these days, one of these players is going to respond physically. We've never really seen it. But in a practice with some guy that thinks, some young guy thinks he's the next Bobby Knight,

he could get taken out one day by one of these players. Listen, that's one. I'm surprised it hasn't happened, given the lessening of respect for authority that we've seen over the years with this most recent generation. I'm actually surprised we haven't seen something like that happen. I don't think you'd ever see it happen with somebody like Izzo. It may not, but that's the other thing that's something. somebody who agreed with me pointed out on social media, who's a coach, said that this is a lesson that a lot of coaches out there will take the heart. And they'll say, well, if it's good enough

for Tom Izzo, it's good enough for me. Right. And if that's acceptable behavior, then I can do it to my nine and 10 year old kids that I'm coaching. Well, let's, it's a bad, it's a bad role model situation. Tommy, I've seen pretty bad at the youth level, okay, but, I, you know, there is, it's a totally different category when you are coaching kids in their formative years versus near adults, if not adults. I get that. I agree with you. In fact, that's one of my arguments too, is these are 18, 19, 20 year old young men. They can go off to war and fight.

They can vote. So arguably, this is one adult berating another adult. in a public situation. I don't do it is berating. Oh, my gosh. No, I don't. I think it's his style of coaching, which you don't agree with. But that was a moment where his style, he had lost control of his style.

I've seen a lot worse, and I've seen him get to, you know, that, again, you know, maybe the reason it drew so much attention was the NCAA tournament, you know. But I've seen Izzo close to becoming, you know, visually looking to be, close to being unhinged before, becoming unglued, but I know that it's not going to happen. But anyway, we're not going to agree on this. We're not going to agree on this. I don't think he's going to need. What did you say he was going to need when he got to down?

I don't think he'll need that. To protect him from the players, he loves so much. You know, being the observer of the human condition that you are, you know, you've followed this guy's career. He's not nuts. Like, there are dudes you listen to when they're interviewed. You're like, that guy's got a loose screw, and you see it play out in his coaching style. Izzo's not that guy. But sometimes we need to put the brakes on what we have accepted.

What has passed for acceptable? Sometimes we need to step back and put the brakes on it and say, whoa, this isn't normal behavior. This shouldn't pass. You know, it's just not unacceptable. I don't view it as unacceptable. I think that there are times when you can become, you know, it's the, conversation that I had about parents off of the college, you know, scandal of a week and a half ago, whenever it was now, about how, you know, as a parent, you know, if you've got a kid

playing basketball in middle school or high school, you stay out of the way. You let your kid advocate on his own and teach him how to advocate on his own. If he's got an issue with a coach with one exception, and that is if you believe that that coach is being abusive, then you're a protector. Yes, I agree. Your role is to protect. Yes, I agree. Your role is to protect. No doubt. Not to advocate for. But part of the protection is to allow in, you know, a normal circumstance, not getting enough playing time.

I don't like the coach because he pulled me from the game. Well, that's your problem. You go talk to the coach. I'm not going to do it. And over the years, Tommy, being a youth coach, I've seen far too often parents go and fight that battle for their kids. And I just don't think that that's the right way to do it. And I think in this particular situation, there were a lot of people that Izzo made uncomfortable that wanted to help the kid out, that wanted to come to his defense.

You know, if the kid really needed defending, if it was an abusive situation, different. Apparently his teammates felt he needed defending. No, they didn't. They did not. No one said that. No one said that. We didn't. He didn't need to say it.

We saw it. They weren't protecting Izo from physically abusing Aaron Henry. Oh, really? That's a big leap, Kevin. I don't, I think it's a big leap to assume that they were. Really? That's the next step. Calming down is one thing. Protecting somebody.

He didn't calm. Or coach, we've got this. We can help as the seniors coach him up. He juiced up. We're not going to agree on this. Let me do a quick wind donation and then I want to get to some Redskins with you. Something that you also wanted to talk about from yesterday. Wind donation.

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mentioned that John Gruden walked by the Redskins media table and said to the guys sitting there waiting for Jay Gruden, hey, are you guys taking a quarterback this year? And there was a story yesterday from a blogger about the Redskins potentially in a trade with the Raiders to get up to number four. But anyway, so JP, I'll take him in order here. Gruden told reporters that he believes that the signing of Eric Flowers was a good one. one because he should be able to move inside and play guard, and he compares him to Brandon Sheriff moving inside and playing guard. Remember, Brandon Sheriff was drafted as a tackle. Yes.

All right, and then moved inside to play guard. If Eric Flowers is 50% of Brandon Sheriff at Guard, that's a win. I think we knew, though, that the signing of Eric Flowers was not for Flowers to come in and play tackle. Gruden on Colt McCoy, and the report from Tark-El this year over the weekend that he was on crutches, but it was not a big deal. And Gruden confirmed that minor procedure should hold him back through phase two, whatever that means, but he should be back for OTA. So phase two might be the second minicamp. Says the team was aggressive in trying to get him back for week 17 and the playoffs, but now, you know, once they didn't make it, they could take their time with him. Gruden says Josh Johnson had a surgical procedure still recovering. He's not under contract. And at this

point, I don't expect them. I don't see any reason for him to be under contract. Well, the only reason that you would get him under a one-year incentive-laden, you know, veteran minimum contract is if you don't make a move for a quarterback here and you want a third quarterback in camp or a third quarterback to compete, but it would not be a guaranteed, you know. Look, Josh Johnson's not getting any offers from anywhere else either. They don't have to move quickly on Josh Johnson. But I agree with you. I think the chances that Josh Johnson is a redskin next year are slim and none. It's Keenham, it's a new quarterback via the draft or trade, or if they can't get it, it's probably another undrafted free agent that they bring into camp and then they probably go with two. If they don't draft

somebody, you know, a developmental guy, which I think would be a surprise at this point if they don't draft the future quarterback or at least a developmental guy. J.P. says he asked Jay Gruden if a quarterback at 15 is what he wants, he said yes, if the right guy is there, but if not if, but if not, they have lots of needs. He said,

you got to hit on those first rounders, you can't reach. What does he mean by lots of needs? I thought you didn't draft according to need. I'm sorry? I thought you didn't draft according to need. What does he mean by lots of needs? He's saying you can't reach for a quarterback.

Yeah, but he said, they have the right guy is there, but if not, let me explain it to you. Let me explain it to you. Yes. what he's telling you is they're going to draft the best player available there.

Really? Because it says they have lots of needs. I thought you didn't draft based on need. JPS, J. Gruden, if a quarterback at 15 is what he wants. And he said, yes, but if the right, if the right guy is there. Yeah. But if not, they have lots of needs, meaning we're not going to reach for a quarterback. Right.

If he's not the highest rated player on our board. That's what he's saying. Really? Yes. I'm looking to me. He's saying that, you know, they draft according to need. You got to hit on those first rounders. you can't reach.

Right. But if not, they have lots of needs. When you draft for need, you're reaching. He says you can't reach. Really? Yes. But he also says they have lots of needs. You're insufferable right now.

Gruden said he's studied the top quarterbacks in this draft class very well. It's an interesting group. Gruden said on Haskins, Dwayne Haskins, he has a unique skill set, says he might not be ready in first year, but has a lot of talent. and then said Drew Locke could come in and compete right away. Other guys could too, but that experience helps. So he did tell you right there that Haskins isn't ready and Locke is. Unless you'd view it a different way. No, no, that's right.

But that's what the coach says. And we know how valuable his opinion is when it comes to personnel decisions. We'll get to that in the moment. He says about the quarterback, this isn't AAA baseball. Our quarterback will be expected to win right away. we're not playing for 2034. That's awfully ambitious. What kind of contract extension did he get?

That's 15 years away. I think in those three quotes about Haskins and Locke and AAA baseball in 2034, he's telling you that they've got Locke higher on their board. He does. I know he, right, and the owner may not. Yes. By the way, that actually makes me happy because I think Locke is. is a better prospect than Haskins.

I do. But the quarterback thing is too, who the hell knows? Gruden said he was involved in Landon Collins for sure, and he was the number one free agent on their board. In a perfect world, sure, he'd like to have total control, but he doesn't have that.

And he jokes that only one coach has that. Of course, most people would say that that was, that's Belichick. But he says he was involved. So for those that think that he wasn't involved, he was involved, or he says he was. Gruden says Redskins need more bodies at wide receiver, and he wants those bodies to be talented. Okay. Actually, we need more bodies at wide receiver, but we prefer untalented wide receivers.

Gruden said he's not sure if he ever got to see the full Paul Richardson because he was dealing with the shoulder injury from the start of the season. Well, hey, coach, guess what? Seattle never got to see the full Paul Richardson either because he was hurt for the. them too. Gruden said having AP back is nice. Gruden said he's never been a fan of keeping three quarterbacks on the roster. Interesting. That is interesting. Well, I mean, if you draft a quarterback, let's say you draft a quarterback in the third round. Let's say you draft a third round quarterback, a developmental guy. I mean, you're going to keep him on the wrong. You're not going to put on the practice squad. More likely than not?

So you're going to have three quarter. They're going to have three quarterbacks this year. What if you trade for Josh Rosen? What if you draft a quarterback in the first two rounds? Then the only quarterback that they could release is Colt McCoy. And I mentioned this the day of the Case Keenum trade, that they would actually save some money if they got rid of Colt McCoy.

So Case Keenum is not going to get released with a three and a half million dollar salary cap hit. Not that it's like this overwhelming big hit, but it's big enough compared to Colt McCoy. They didn't trade for Case Keenham to cut him. Right. More likely than not. No, that makes sense.

But if they draft a quarterback in the first two rounds, Colt McCoy could potentially be released post-June 1. Even in training camp, he could be. Or he could be traded, Tommy, to somebody that's looking for a veteran backup on a team that doesn't have one. Who's going to trade for Colt McCoy? Well, again, a team that thinks... Cole McCoy on crutches. a team that thinks they're, let's just, well, I'll give you a team right now,

depending on what happens with Mullins. Has Mullins been signed yet, the San Francisco quarterback? By the 49ers, re-signed or not? I have not read that. He's a free agent. Because the 49ers, with the kind of offense, they run without a backup and with a quarterback that's been injury prone, and they think they're going to be much improved this year, somebody like them to send a conditional late-round pick for Coles.

Colt McCoy. Yeah. I'm just throwing one possibility. They got Bethard's son. They do have CJ Bethard. They do, and they like him. Okay. Nick Mullins is still under contract. Oh, he is? Yeah. I thought he was a free agent. I don't think so. Okay. So they got three quarterbacks. It's not insane to think that a team that doesn't have a legitimate backup, veteran backup, that has a, you know, first-rate starter. I mean, I'm just, looking through the various teams that thinks that they could be competitive this year and they don't have a backup could deal a conditional late-round pick for McCoy. I'm not saying it's likely.

I'm just saying it's not insane to suggest that could happen. Colt McCoy is considered to be a legitimate backup quarterback, veteran backup. But the more interesting part of that is that he's not a fan of keeping three quarterbacks on the roster. So if they make a move for another quarterback, which we're all expecting is more probable than not, than if they got to the point where they liked Keenham and they liked the other guy, I think Colt McCoy could be in trouble. On the other hand, it's apparent that Jay Grue has very, Jay Gruden has very little say in the roster and the roster decisions.

That's pretty obvious. So Jay may not want to keep three quarterbacks, but it's not his decision. You know, at this point, I think that Jay is more involved this year than he has been in the past. That's been my contention here over the last couple of weeks because I was told definitively that he was looking at quarterbacks and his opinion was being asked for more than it has in the past. As opposed to last year when they made the Alex Smith trade and we found out he wasn't even scouting college quarterbacks. the time. Here's something that's very interesting, and I don't know how the question was asked. I just know that Cooley was on with me on Friday, and if you didn't hear that podcast, go listen to it, because Cooley went and did one of his Cooley projects where he looked at every first down

play from last season and determined that the Redskins had to be one of the worst first down teams in the history of football, and thought that the play calling stunk, and he was critical of the Redskins' first downs last year. Gruden says, according to J.P. Finley, his Redskins' offense has to be better on first down, contends they had more second and long plays than maybe any NFL team in history. I'm just going to say this, and I do not know if I'm right or wrong. It's just a gut feel. That came straight from my boy, who said, do you know how bad you were on first down? Because he's not bashful around those people. And he has these little projects. And his point was, how did we not scout ourselves better during the course of the year to come up with a different game plan and strategy on first down?

And maybe they didn't self-scout well enough. Gruden, according to J.P. Finley, said he's still trying to determine the type of offense, his team will be in in 2019, and the draft will be a big part of that. Well, if you draft Kyler Murray, if somehow you got Kyler Murray, it would be a different offense. Well, let me say, wait a minute now. Yeah. And this gets to something I wanted to talk about. Okay.

Who they draft will determine in some way what their offense is. But now Doug Williams said that, you know, it got crucified by saying, well, well, you don't pay attention to scheme. We just draft players. Right. Well, isn't that what Jay, isn't Jay Gruden kind of saying, well, you know, we'll draft the players and then figure out what the scheme is later here? Well, he's, or he's saying, once I find out the play. players I get, I'll figure out the scheme. By the way, I like that he's thinking about changing the scheme. I am shocked. You know, Cooley's results didn't shock anybody. Anybody that watched that team,

despite all of you, Alex Smith lovers, about how great he was, that offense was horrible last year on the way to six and three. It was Adrian Peterson, Adrian Peterson, and Adrian Peterson. But beside that, you know, there was a lot of pushback. In fact, Grant and Hoffman both had, or one of the two had the report that the Redskins were very upset with Doug Williams saying what he said. And I said on the podcast yesterday, you know, that's their fault because they have continued to put him out there front and center to shovel all of their crap, you know, on Ruben Foster and everything else.

And yet they don't really have him very prepared, you know, to handle those situations. And if he's bungling it with the right information, then they shouldn't put him out there. Yeah. I mean, it's unbelievable to me. But we know why, because Dan's a recluse, and Bruce knows that people are repulsed by his face and his voice, and that they don't want to hear from him, even though he did talk, you know, more at the Indy Combine. What do you want to? The type of offenses team, my immediate reaction is you wouldn't change the offense for Case Keenham, for Colt McCoy,

and more likely than not, you wouldn't change it for Josh Rosen or. Drew Locke. Right. You would change the offense if you ended up with Kyler Murray. Kyler Murray. Yes. Yeah.

So this is kind of a stupid comment. What? I mean, what he said here. I know. It's kind of dopey. Unless the owner has said, I still want us to see whatever, whatever it'll take to get Kyler Murray.

That's certainly a possibility. Gruden recognizes, according to JP, what tight end on the field shows tendencies and wants to address it. He knows it's a problem. Cooley pointed out that basically, you can basically tell what the Redskins are going to run based on the tight ends that are on the field. Gruden said, Ryan Anderson has to come up big. Time to stop talking and start doing. I'm excited to see him. Well, you know what that says to me, Tommy and Aaron? Is that they're not planning right now on adding anybody as an outside linebacker.

They lose Preston Smith and the replacement's Ryan Anderson. And some people are fine with that. he's not the pass rusher that you need. He said on Josh Norman, he's a physical guy, he's at his best when he's challenged, he's a very competitive guy. When you're making that kind of money, you're going to deal with that pressure, can't judge off of one game with Josh Norman. Sounds to me like, you know, there's no, well, I think we would have seen that plan already in place if Josh Norman were to be.

Although, you know, there's the possibility that one of those top flight corners could be there 15 with all the quarterbacks gone if the Redskins don't make a move. But anyway. Well, you know, it depends on their scheme. Let's get to Doug Williams' comments that you talked about that he got roasted for this week in town, like basically where he basically said, oh, he made those comments after the league. The weekend have two weeks ago now. Landon Collins signing.

We don't pay attention to scheme. We don't do anything like that when we draft players. Now, you're going to disagree with me. because you obviously disagreed with me when we talked about this 10 minutes ago. When he says that, to me, he's telling you that we don't draft the best player on the board. How do you figure that? My reaction is the exact opposite. He's telling you we're drafting the best player based on talent because we don't care if he fits this game.

That's what I mean. That's what I mean. But to crucify him. Well, you just said the opposite. I know that, but I mean that. to crucify him for saying that. If you're one of these defenders who say that people should draft, you know, to the best player available, you can't do both.

Well, yes, you can. No, you can't. In other words, if you draft the best player available, if you draft the best player available to fit your scheme, then you're drafting on need. First of all, there are two different things here. Having the coaching staff and the personnel department in sync is not, not a bad thing. You can still draft the best player available on your board, but your best player available on your board also is from a group of players that you believe fit your scheme.

So he's not the best player available. He's the best player on their board. Right. Okay. So second, secondly, secondly, you're, you're, you're extrapolating this out to a point where you're not considering the most simplistic of answers. And that is, you can't draft a, 4-3 defensive end when your team's a 3-4 defense. If he's the best player on your board and he's a 4-3 defensive end, and you are in a 3-4 defense and you're not going to switch, well, that is one of those outliers where you're not taking the best player on the board. And you think that happens rarely?

I probably think it happens not that often. I think it happens often. Again, the fact is, if you're dressed... You like Charlie Casserly. Charlie Casserly has told you a million times, told me a million times. You draft the best player on your board, and whenever you don't, you are at great risk and you get in trouble doing so. And I don't think teams really do that. Okay.

I don't think they do. Again, I think you can talk about it until you're blue in the face, but if you've drafted. But there's some context here, and I've given you the context before, and that is, I'm not talking about the difference between. You're trying to rationalize it. No, I'm not rationalizing. Yes, you are. No, there's not, because it's not a, it sounds like a blanket statement, but there's context to it. There's circumstances to every situation that.

There's needs. There's needs. There's needs. Like this. Needs. Yeah, but it's not, but if a player is a 97 on your board, and the next player on your board is a 96, and the 97 is a quarterback, but you have Aaron Rogers at 29 years old, and the 96 player on your board, is a corner and you don't have a starting corner,

then yes, need becomes part of that conversation, obviously. What if he's in 86? Then you do not draft the 86. Really? Absolutely. And I would be, most teams would never draft the 86 over a 97. They might draft a different position at a 94 or a 93, but if that player of need is in 86, they're not drafting an 86 over a 97.

Look, and if they are... And if they are, they're going to try to trade. They're going to try to trade back. But if you draft based on your scheme, you're drafting based on need. Okay. Disagree. Again, you've been told this by a former NFL general manager dozens of times over your esteemed journalism career. And you just, I'm going to tell Charlie the next time he calls in, Tommy thinks you're full of shit on drafting for talent.

You can tell him that fine. What's his true? track record in the draft. Oh, here we go. In other words, my point is all these guys miss. You're right about that. All these guys miss. We both love Charlie.

We both love Charlie, but I have mentioned this many times in the past because I do like Charlie a lot. And I think Charlie was a good general manager. Charlie's last several years in Washington produced two pro bowl players over eight drafts, and neither one of those two were pro bowl players in Washington. Stephen Davis ended up being a pro bowler in Carolina and Frank Whitechek ended up being a pro bowler in Tennessee the only two players he took I wasn't looking to take a shot before champ bail

at Charlie Casley what I was pointing out was the track record of a lot of GMs in this business is spotty at best so they shouldn't be back there's no doubt about their chest there's no doubt about this idea that you draft the best player available Oh, okay. Well, one other thing Jay Gruden said about Josh Norman, quote, people seem to be disappointed in his play. I'm not disappointed at all, closed quote. I'll tell you what, Josh Norman got what he wanted. He got the big payday for at least one more year versus the Redskins trying to save a bunch of money on their salary cap. And you know what I would say to that, Tommy, that part of it really is because they just don't have any options right now. And we're still not sure. still not sure about Dunbar and that injury. You know, right now at Corner, who did the Redskins have if they got rid of Norman? Well, they've got Fabian Moreau. They've got Greg Stroman.

They've got the Dunbar, which may be a question mark in terms of health. The guy they took in the supplemental draft, Adonis Alexander, and the guy that was retired that they got for nothing in DRC. Yes. That's the group. That's not very impressive right now. That's a little frightening. Of those players, I mean, I still have hopes that Fabian Moreau is going to be a good player.

And I think they do too. But, you know, Norman probably is, you know, a must keep if they think they're close, if they're not building for the future, if they're trying to win. They are. Yeah, well, we know that. Yeah. Okay. What else on the skins?

I got nothing else on the skins. There may be more that comes out of this Jay Gruden discussion with media at the league meetings in Arizona. it and I'll get to it tomorrow if that happens. I'm assuming the comment about total control, I'm assuming somebody in that media group finally asked him, these comments you made at the end of the season last year in your postseason press conference. Is it any better? Yeah, I mean, has it improved? What did you mean? Well, we know what he meant. The question should be, you said that the personnel department and the coaching staff have to be more in sync on the same page. Is it better? Has it improved? I'm hoping. And if so how. I got to think that that, that

answer was related to that. I'm hoping somebody asked him that question. Yeah. One other quick thing on the Doug Williams stuff, and I'm going to paraphrase here because I forget exactly what, how it was put to me on Twitter, but basically two or three people tweeted me and said, you can't take Doug off the hook. He's a grown man. If he, he's out there representing the team and you're blaming all of his misspeaks and his not knowing various information, you're blaming it all on everybody else other than Doug. I think there's some truth in that,

but if I'm the organization, the report was that the rest of the organization, the assumption here is that it's Dan and Bruce and Eric, that they were upset that Doug said that. And by the way, this comes on the heels of them being very upset that Doug misspoke and embarrassed, you know, himself in the interview with Doc about Ruben Foster. And they pushed him back out there to apologize about it. You should have a sense, I think, from a PR standpoint, that he's either not performing as your spokesperson because he doesn't have enough information or because he's not good at it. In either case, you shouldn't put him out there again. Look, they presented him front and center at that Landon Collins press conference

and made him available on the stage for post-press conference interviews when Bruce Allen and Dan Snyder were sitting right in that audience. I know, right there. They both know, and I think they have a sense of this now. Certainly Bruce does, that the mere sight of either one of them or the sound of their voices repulsively. the majority of the fan base. It really is.

No, am I right about that? No, you're right, you're right. So that's why over the last two years, they are toxic individuals. That's why they have pushed Doug out there. And I say push, not in a condescending way. I feel for Doug, because either he's, you know,

completely uninformed as to what's going on in the organization. And I think there is some of that. I think that Doug isn't included. We know that. He didn't know what the Alex Smith trade. He's the senior VP of personnel, and he had no idea that Bruce had made a trade for Alex Smith. I just, I do have empathy for him because I like him, and I think a lot of Redskinned fans like him, and I don't like to see them put him out there to be poked at.

Well, you see. And put him in the position to be poked at. You know, I talked about this when they put him in that position. I said, we've seen a number of situations where, franchise icons as a player in their second act with that same organization wound up being people of ridiculed wound wound wound up basically being a target of fan wrath we saw it with the wizards with west unsil yeah uh saw it with the orioles with god rest his soul the late mike flanagan uh it's a risk that an icon takes uh and you know you could see it with john

Elway at some point in Denver. I mean, where, you know, your track record as a player to the generation that roots for the team now doesn't mean so much. You know, the irony of this is, you know, Doug, I do think in many ways doesn't have anywhere near the influence or the decision-making ability that his title suggests that he would have. I would agree. But the irony is that in that building, you know, when it comes to Dan and

Bruce and the others, in terms of evaluating players, I'd much rather have Doug's opinion than anyone else's. Absolutely. Much rather. Now, do I want him running my entire personnel department? I don't know the answer to that, because I don't know what his strengths and weaknesses are. I do know this. The title is not necessarily the job, you know, job description, or how he's handling that.

He doesn't have that level of responsibility. is what I'm trying to say. But would I rather have Doug looking at these quarterbacks than Bruce or Kyle or Eric? A hundred percent so. Bruce and Jay Gruden would be, you guys are going to look at these quarterbacks and tell us what we should do here. Because we don't know anything, but they'll never admit that. All right, Aaron was going nuts over there because I see it.

I see it. So there were a few more Jay Gruden quotes coming out. First of all, on Alex Smith, he says, Nobody really knows what he's going through besides him. The doors are open whenever he's ready to come back in the building. And then he says about Matt Kavanaugh. Matt Kavanaugh will help me on game day with clock issues. So if you want to know the truth,

they did reach out to ask me to come in and meet with them about this a couple of weeks ago. No, I'm kidding. They should have. And here's one more thing. Gruden says Colt McCoy and Case Keenham will compete for the starting job. Not the same situation as last year when Alex Smith got the top job once he arrived. All right. So right now, it's Colt McCoy and Case Keenham and we'll see how they handle the draft or trade possibilities, et cetera.

But again, if he doesn't keep three quarterbacks, you cannot cut Case Keenum now. You traded for him. It would be an accelerated $3.5 million dead money cap hit next year. wonder if it was Jay Gruden's decision not to keep three quarterbacks that cost them Nate Sudfeld. I don't know. I don't know. Who the Phillies?

Who the Phillies? Who the Eagles have now carried, who carried as a third quarterback for two straight seasons? I don't have a sense for, and I don't know if I've ever even talked about this with Cooley about what Jay Gruden thought of Nate Sudfeld. I have no idea. I have no idea. I remember that there was some buzz in the organization. organization early about how impressive he was.

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Again, ask for Ralph Perkins. He'll be there more likely than not. Farish Cars.com right now for live inventory, live pricing and their best deals. A couple of NFL topics just to close out the show. Number one is Grunk and Grunk Retiring. from the Patriots. And I don't know what your reaction was. You and I are longtime NFL fans,

and we have a point of view about the great players. Some of our favorite conversations or comparing players of today to players of yesteryear. The one reaction I had is I was surprised at how many people, NFL people, long-time NFL writers, immediately gushed over Gronk and said, it's not debatable. Rob Grinkowski's the greatest tight end

in the history of the NFL. Because to me, that was not my reaction to it. I think he's certainly in the conversation. But whenever somebody's ever asked me about the greatest tight end I have ever watched, it's Kellyn Winslow. It's Kellyn Winslow. And it's at a different time.

Now, the Chargers played football like a lot of teams of today do with their aerial attack, with Cori-El, Eric Corrielle, and Dan Fouts and John Jefferson and West Chandler and Kellyn Winslow and Chuck Muncie coming at James Brooks, all those teams. They played like a team from, you know, the 21st century, long before anybody else was. But Kellyn Winslow is not to be overlooked in the conversation of the greatest tight end in history, even with, you know, Grunkowski.

Grikowski's great. He's one of the most, uncheckable players at that position I've ever watched. But Winslow for me was the first uncheckable player at that position. You couldn't guard him, couldn't cover him. And he dominated. You know, I mean, I struggled

with the same thing. The quick reaction to Crown Grunk immediately. You felt the same way. As the greatest of all time. But you know, Troy Castorley, you know, a guy you just mentioned before? Right. You know, a guy who you just, you know,

throughout there is your ammunition to support your position on drafting. This is what he said. To me, Rob Grunkowski is a first ballot hall of famer. He may be the best tight end in the history of the game. Okay, well, at least he didn't say he is. He is, of course, a first ballot hall of favor. Yes, he is. I'm not going to debate that.

Yeah. And he may be. He's a guy who volunteers the best tight end in there. I mean, to volunteer that. means you probably think he is. I mean, it would be a great conversation to have about, you know, him or Winslow. I mean, to me, those are the two that pop out. I know a lot of people love Gonzalez.

I know a lot of people, you know, your age, like John Mackey. John Mackey is my guy. You know, I mean, John Mackey, to me, is the best tight end I've ever seen played a game. But I can't, I can't, I, you know, it's, the response is so overwhelming. And normally I don't pay attention to that that much. It was overwhelming. I got to think I'm missing a boat a little bit about. No, you're not.

I don't think you are because my reaction is the same. I'm a devout NFL football fan for a long, long time. I recognize Gronk's greatness. I recognize how great he is. He is a first ballot hall of famer. He's one of, if not the best. I just didn't think it was without debate. the gushing over him in the last 24 hours after he announced his retirement and the default that he's the greatest to ever play the position, I don't feel that way. I think it's a debate. I always felt that Winslow, and sometimes we have tendency to sort of do this and think about these players. Like I told you about the 1963 NBA game that was on NBA. It was like, I used to think Jerry West was great until I actually went back and watched one of his games.

But Winslow, Winslow was the first, maybe I'm wrong about this, and maybe Mackey was this, Winslow was the first tight end that was really and truly a receiver first. Oh no, Mackey was. He was. And you know what Jerry Smith was too for the Redskins. And actually, I mean, Russ Francis was for the Patriots. Yeah, Russ Francis was absolutely one. Dave Casper was, although Casper was a good all-around tight end.

Yeah. So I guess that's wrong. Winslow also had iconic games. He had the iconic tight end game. He did. The playoff game against the Dolphins in the Orange Bowl in January of 82 was one of the most memorable of all time. Performances of all time by a player at that position.

And by the way, part of that was his special teams play too, blocking field goals in the game. Anyway. But I mean, Gronkowski, they cite his numbers and his numbers are overwhelming. but again he plays in a numbers era so of course if he's a great tight end his numbers are going to be overwhelming but I'm going to go to default on this

I'm going to say if they think if most people think he's the greatest tight end in the game then maybe he may be really you're going to go with most people yeah really yeah boy that's a change of pace it's a bit of a change with you wow a little bit of change you know what that just tells me is that you don't really have a strong feeling

about this. But you didn't have a strong feeling about a player before. Well, I did. I'm with Mackey. I do have a very strong feeling about John Mackey being the best tight end. But you can't deny what Gruncowski has accomplished. Winslow had 541 career receptions for 6,741 yards, 45 touchdowns, three-time first-team All-Pro, 75th anniversary all-time team, played 94 games. Grunk, 521 career receptions for 7,861 yards, 79 touchdowns with, you know, arguably the greatest quarterback that's ever lived. I think Fouts sometimes is underrated as a great quarterback. And the problem with arguing eras here is that the chargers really did push the envelope in terms of offenses of that era.

I mean, they were totally unique starting in the late 70s and 79 with Air Correel. They threw it more than anybody else. They played offense different than anybody else, and it was more similar to what is done today in terms of the number of throws per game. But anyway, whatever. It sounds like you're not overly passionate about the argument. Well, you know what? Now I've changed my mind. Now I've changed my mind.

John Mackey is the best tight end in the history of the game. And stop this. Stop this Grotowski BS. I'm sorry. Okay, good. If you put John Mackey out there with that Patriot, team, my God, they'd make them king. Okay, good. I'm glad we finally got you energized for the argument.

After the argument was over. What did Gronkowski average per catch? 15.1 yards per reception. Really? John Mackie averaged 15.8 yards per reception. Let me see what Winslow did. And had 331 catches and 38 touchdowns. Winslow's average per catch was 12.5 yards. Look at this. So Mackey has a bigger average in either one of them. How many crew, how many, how many, catches and touchdowns for Mac. Well, Mac, he has 331 career catches. Yeah, so 200 less than both of them.

And 38 career touchdowns. Right. So basically half the numbers in terms of receptions and touchdowns. Not touchdowns for Winslow. Three-time All-Pro, by the way. Look, I gave you an opportunity to be excited about the conversation, but it's too late now. Three-time All-Pro, 1960s all-decade teams. Did you see the RG3 story? his agent suing him for $650,000 in back pay.

I think all his money that he had left went to his ex-wife. Maybe. I think it did. It usually does. Yeah. Certainly half of it does. According to documents, his agent Ben Daga, who was his agent for several years. Who we tried to get in touch with numerous times.

We did. Numerous times. He wouldn't do it. I had a conversation with him. him. Right. Or two. But he would never come on the show. No. Uh, he invoiced Griffin for nearly $390,000 in 2014 was paid $13,000. Was billed for $260,000 in 2015 paid just over $36,000. And in 2016, when Griffin was what, was he with Cleveland in 2016? And out of the league in 17 and then back in 18, right? Um, he invoiced Griffin for, for almost $59,000 but received no payments at all.

Griffin fired his agent in 2018 without paying what he owed. The lawsuit seeks repayment of the debt plus interest and damages. How much money do you... He just signed a two-year deal with the ratings. I know. How much money do you think RG3 owes Terry Shea? Yeah, go get it from my quarterback guru. The guy that I listened to more than my coach.

Terry Shea? Oh, my God, do I remember? Oh, no, no, no. He's great in the pocket. He was funny. He was funny. Last thing NFL relayed. And by the way, did you see who was the quarterback guru for Kyle and Murray's Pro Day?

Tell me. Jim Zorn. He was there. No, he's in the story. I did see the video of Jim Zorn. In stories, he's listed as his guru. He's his guy. I mean, Jim Zorn.

Did somebody get to Kyler Murray? and tell him that all Zorn does is make for a great neighbor, that he's not much of a coach. Hey, a new head coach for Seattle in the XFL, baby. I know. NFL announced yesterday what John Orand had put out a couple of weeks ago that the NFL is going to open up the season with Chicago hosting Green Bay, not the defending Super Bowl champion in that first game on that Thursday night.

This is all part of the 100th anniversary thing, the iconic old first run, And I think Orand indicated, too, that one of the emphasis is this year in primetime games will be focusing on long-time rivalries, which tells me that the Redskins and Cowboys, despite the Redskins being basically right now, last on the board. Somebody took a snapshot of the NFL futures board at one of the sports books in Vegas, and the Redskins were dead last to win the NFC championship among NFC teams. But the Redskins and Cowboys are going to play a national TV. Of course they are. And New England, the defending Super Bowl champions, are going to open up their season on Sunday night football. And I think we've talked about this.

One of the games they have at home this year is Cleveland. That would be an interesting. They got to open up with that. What else are you going to do? I would think so. Well, they have the Cowboys on the schedule at home. Hold on. Cleveland has become a must watch.

I think that that's, I think you're right. I think it's a possible home opener for Sunday night football. O'Dell Becker? Here are their out of division games, right? You're not going to have them open with the Bills, Jets, or Dolphins. Right. The Browns, the Steelers, the Chiefs, which they played. They might want to put Mahomes on the field then.

Yeah, the Cowboys and the Giants. The Chiefs could come down to the Tyreek Hill situation. If he's suspended, they may not want to put him. Yeah, it doesn't matter with Mahomes. The Chiefs are still going to be a team. Yeah, but they don't want to put that on the first Sunday night game necessarily. And I would bet you any of them. amount of money that the Cowboys, CBS, Oran's really good at writing about this stuff, and he had mentioned

that the AFC matchups for next year in terms of the schedule were not as attractive as the NFC matchups, and therefore CBS, home of the AFC primarily, was going to get some of the bigger NFC matchups like the Cowboys Patriots as a possibility, is not going to go to NBC or Thursday night football. it's going to stick with, you know, a Sunday afternoon 425 slot on CBS. If I was making that choice on that Patriots game as a programmer, it would be between the Browns and the Steelers. I think the Browns in the home, in the opening game, before you know whether or not they're really good.

Yes. Might as well get it out of them while you can. It would make a lot of sense. I agree. I mean, they've got Beckham and Mayfield, just for starters. So I would, I would, I would put my money on that before I put it on the Steelers as an AFC matchup, the Browns Patriots, and you would, I mean, what would have made you think a couple of years ago that you would have ever said that Patriots Browns is more attractive as a TV matchup than Patriots Steelers?

They'd much rather talk about the potential of the resurgent Browns. That way they could go into the whole storyline of Jim Brown and the old Browns and the downtrod in Cleveland, you know, coming back to light. and a lot of good storylines there. Lastly, before we leave, unless you have something. Did you see the injury last night to Nurkich in Portland? No. Oh, my God. Second overtime.

I mean, of a fabulous game. I didn't watch it. I watched the highlights this morning. Between Portland and Brooklyn, and Nurkich came down on his lower left leg, shattered it. And he's out, done. And you could see the reaction from the players. I mean, Lillard said it made me sick to my stomach.

looking at it and it's a big loss for Portland. He's a hell of a player. But man, doesn't it seem like in recent years we've seen this much more than we used to see it? Yeah, it does. You know, we saw it here, obviously with Alex Smith, you know, but in the NBA, the Paul George, the Gordon Hayward, Hayward, remember the Kevin Ware for Louisville? Yeah, Louisville, that was hard. You know, how about just in football recently, the Cowboys, Alan Hearns, in that playoff game this year? Yeah, we have seen a lot more of the shattering of legs and ankles than we have. ever have before. Why do you think that is? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I have no idea. I'm not qualified to answer that, but I'm sure it has something to do with the body type

and the muscle in, you know, in the lack of, you know. Lack of fat. Lack of fat potentially. There you go. Lack of fat. You need some fat calves. You and I both know that. I wanted to mention one thing before we go. I'm not going to be here with you on Thursday. Right. Opening day. I'm going to be at opening day. But you're going to call in. I'm going to call in the Nats and the Mets opening day 105. It'll be Max Scherzer versus Sall Young winner, Jacob de Grom, who might be pretty energized because finally the reports are that the Mets have reached a contract extension agreement with DeGrom. It had become a real source of friction in the Mets clubhouse. And there were some bad feelings about it. And for them to get that done, should put

the Mets in the right frame of mind for opening day. It should be a great day. And weather's supposed to be great. Gorgeous. It's supposed to be fabulous. So for the Philadelphia series next week, I have not looked at this. Who is the scheduled starter for the Nats based on the rotation right now? Scherzerzer is the second game.

Yeah, it's Sanchez for the first game and Scherzer for the second game. So that would be Sanchez's first start. Yeah. Right. Because they're going to have the day off between the opener and game two. They have Friday off. And then they do Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday. Yeah.

Or is it Monday Tuesday? Monday might be off. Okay. So Annabelle Sanchez in the first night. Yeah. And then Max Scherzer is the second game. Okay. When can we catch you on radio the rest of the week?

I'm on with Chad on Wednesday from 4 to 6 on 1067 fan and with Andy Pauling. Saturday and Sunday morning's 9 to noon. All right. And we'll actually be at the ballpark on Saturday doing our show because that's 106, 7. having a fan fan day at, at, uh, Nats Park. Awesome. All right. Back tomorrow.

Anything else, Jay Gruden said, um, that we didn't get on this show. I'll have for you tomorrow. Uh, thanks to Aaron. Uh, I'm always happy to have Tommy in studio here. Um, it just works much better, uh, than when he's calling in from home, um, and doing other things, which is usually the case. Uh, enjoy many things I have to do. Enjoy your day.

Everybody back tomorrow.