The Kevin Sheehan Show - Hail Mary Penalties Missed?

Episode Date: October 29, 2024

Kevin and Thom today with more on Washington's "Hail Mary" to beat Chicago on Sunday including the penalties on the play that weren't called. Johnny Newton had himself a game and may be emerging as a major impact player on defense. Plenty more on the Commanders along with the World Series, the Wizards first win, and tomorrow's 50-year anniversary of the "Rumble in the Jungle". Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Cheehan Show. Here's Kevin. Tommy's here. I am here. The show's presenting sponsor, as always, is Windonation.

Call them at 86690 Nation or head to Window Nation. This podcast, Tom, is the 15th ranked podcast in the country in the Apple podcast rankings for football podcast, but it is the number one football podcast in the country that isn't a national podcast. The podcast ranked ahead of them, ahead of this one, excuse me, ahead of them, ahead of this one, are all national podcasts, you know, Barstool, Ringer, Pat McAfee, and, you know, some of the big names that are out there. But this one right now, per the Apple podcast charts. is the number one sort of local, you know, content sports slash football podcast in the country.

You know what? A Hail Mary will help you when it comes to Apple podcast rankings. Yes, it will. I would expect, just like the radio station, that there be a little bit extra in my check. Yeah, I don't know. When we worked out the deal, did I put a ratings bonus? into your contract? A ranking bonus into your contract? Well, look, we don't work by contracts. We work by goodwill.

You know what? You're right about that. I'm going to do something for you. I'm going to do something for you. I don't know what it is. Yeah, you mean you're going to do something to me, right? There's a lot I'd like to do to you sometimes. I got this from Dan. Dan writes, Kevin, I'm a Chicago Bears fan living in the DMV. The play was crazy. And part of me is actually happy for you and all Redskin fans. But there was a blatant hold on Wiley and in a and an illegal crackback block on number 67, whoever that is, neither was called.

You know what? I think I mentioned on Monday or Sunday nights review that there was definitely a borderline kind of crackback block. I missed the hold. I did go back in low. look at it, you're right. There is kind of a blatant hold by Andrew Wiley. There's also, also, pass interference, if you want to call that, you never see it called on a Hail Mary, but it wasn't with the group that was jumping up at the goal line. The trailing player is Terry

McClorn. He is mugged with the ball in the air. Now, it's not thrown to him. It's thrown beyond him. He's like the trailing player, but he gets, you know, bottled up and pushed around and nearly knocked to the ground with the ball in the air. What do you want me to say, Dan? I went back, I was familiar with the crackback block by Allegretti. That's number 67. And I don't think it was penalty level, but it was crackback to a certain degree. But the hold by Wiley on 55.

Is 55 Taylor for them? because Taylor was pretty good. No, it's Jacob Martin. Because Montes Sweat was not in the play for that final game. Yeah. I did see that. There's no doubt that that was, it was kind of blatant, maybe a bit of an exaggeration, but that's a hold, you know,

eight times out of ten. But sorry about that. Well, let me ask you this, buddy. Yeah, buddy. Yeah, buddy. Yeah, champ. Do you think it's possible that the refs thought, well, we're not going to throw a flag because he's never going to complete the past.

Yes and no. I think that they understand that these things happen occasionally. Not, you know, it's a long shot. But there's definitely, Andrew Wiley, definitely, this is on his first, this is right after the drop back too. So, you know, he drops back. And once he starts to kind of move up in the pocket before flushing, right. Once he takes off going right, Wiley just grabs the inside of the jersey and holds him.

And the guy, 55, you know, throws his arms up in the air. But there's, you know, at that point. And then the crackback comes after that. So, yeah, there was probably some cheating on that final play. But again, Terry got completely, you know, mugged with the ball in the air. and, you know, I mentioned this yesterday. If you were listening to the podcast, Cooley was on it yesterday. He was great in kind of breaking down the last, you know, minute. But Eberfluse confirmed that Tyreke Stevenson was supposed to be the guy covering. He was supposed to be the guy blocking out Brown.

Yeah. So, I mean, that's the biggest foul ball. Yes, no doubt. That doesn't get flagged, but that should get fined. So you were there. You were there for, let's call it what it was, the greatest game-ending play in franchise history, in terms of just a walk-off play. Yeah. I mean, you don't get any better than that, okay? That is, you can't possibly get any better than that. Okay. So, yeah, and you know what the cool thing was? Nobody had left the stadium. No, but the fans were still passed and filled by that point.

You know, that's like, you know, 10 seconds left in the game, 12 seconds left in the game. Well, fuck you. The fans were still in their seats. Yeah, two seconds before that final snap, yes. Right. I mean, it was just, that, that's what really made it special. And then to see them pour it out of the stadium, just screaming, you know, their, their chance, MVP, MVP. and it was

it was a festive scene as I've seen at that stadium well probably at least since 2012 right you know so yeah it was the press box exploded in disbelief you know the fans

sitting in front of us are banging our windows to the press box in joy you know like like it's like a noise maker it was it was an incredible team. And I'm glad I was there to see it. What were you doing in the moment? Do you remember how you reacted?

Well, my go-to move is to scream, holy shit in situations like that. And fortunately, for me, I wasn't writing that night. I wasn't writing until Monday for Tuesday. So I didn't have to tear up everything I had just written about how the Bears won and change it to how the commanders won. You know, so, I mean, that was part of the anxiety in the press box once they get over to disbelief. There's, holy shit, now I got to rewrite what I just wrote. Right.

I didn't have to do that, so I got to enjoy it maybe more than other media members did. What was the reaction? And first of all, you know, where you were, you were as far away from that end zone in the press box. Have I asked you this before? I mean, I think it's ridiculous. I've, you know, I've sat in that press box once and I said I would never, ever watch a game from that press box again. I just don't know how you're able to really watch the game without watching it on the screens that are in there.

but is that one of the worst press locations for an NFL stadium? Haven't been to that many NFL stadiums. The Ravens move their press box from the 50-yard line to one of the end zones. I didn't know that until we were in Baltimore a couple weeks ago. So that's not particularly good, but that's the trend. I imagine most stadiums have gone that way. I can't speak to most stadiums. But, yeah, it's not a good view.

But when you're in the press box, you get to see more than just the game. You get to see what's going on on the sidelines, on both sidelines. You know, there's more going on in the field than just to play. I could, honestly, I could never watch a game from that position. I just, it would be very odd, and I would feel like I'm an overreaction. No, I wouldn't. I would never watch the game from that. that spot. Not if I were really into the game. Like as a fan of the of the team that I'm there to watch

and I want to watch it closely, I could never, I would never sit there to watch the game. I would be watching it on the screen if I were working there so I could see the game, especially when it's down on the other end of the field as that play was. But what I was going to ask you was before I got diverted to that is, You said the reaction in the press box, was it just, what do you remember about the reaction in the press box where, you know, there is kind of this unwritten rule that you're a journalist and you're not supposed to, you know, root for the home team? Yeah, but there was an outburst of shock, positive shock. I don't know if you call it joy. that this kid, and that's part of it is Jaden Daniels. Yeah.

Is, you know, we're all sitting there and have high expectations of him already, and then he exceeds them. You know, and that's kind of the thing that ignites it. It is the marveling at what you're, there seems to be no ceiling for this kid, you know. So I think that's part of the reaction. is the shock, not just of the play, but who made the play. You know, the quarterback who made the play, and just how each week he impresses you even more and more. I think that comes into play, too.

But it was one of stunned, not joy, but I guess pleasure in seeing something that you didn't expect. I think you just really nailed it. And I think I talked about this a little bit, but this is an incredible play. But we've seen Hail Marys completed in football. You know, it happens. Doesn't happen every week. Doesn't happen every month. But it happens a couple of times a year, you know, maybe once or twice a year.

I don't know what the average of, you know, walk-off victories are on Hail Marys. But it's, if it had been something, let's just say last year, and they were three and three, and it was thrown by Sam Howell, or the year before by Taylor Heineke, or the year before that by Carson Wentz, or the year before that by Case Keenum, you know, we can keep going back. It's just, it's wild, it's cool, hey, they won a game that really they played better than the other team in, but then they were about to lose, and it's a big win. They, you know, their seasons alive here, but this was a lot because of him.

And the promise of what is coming in the incredible disbelief as to how great he's been already. And like you said, it just keeps exceeding what you didn't think was possible to begin with. Or most people. For a rookie, for a rookie quarterback. Yeah. We need to keep saying that to ourselves. That's what makes this historic. I don't think we've ever seen a rookie play like this before.

He's already set record early in the season that, you know, our rookie NFL passing records. So I think it's, we're seeing something in Washington that is particularly unusual, and just beyond Washington. I mean, in NFL Nation, this is, this is a thing. Dean Daniels is the thing now. He is right near, if not the center of the NFL, you know, talking universe. Yes.

And to your point, it's just you can't find one. You can't find seven and, you know, a drive. He's played seven full games and a drive of an eighth game. You can't find seven better games for the, rookie quarterback at the start of his career. You can't. He is playing better than any rookie quarterback in his first, you know,

rookie quarterback has ever played, ever. It's like, there's no comp to what he's doing. He is, he's currently, you know, second in the league in completion percentage.

You know, he's top 10 in, uh, QBR. He, a fifth in top five in QBR. In passer rating, he's seventh in the league. You know, he, from a rushing standpoint, let's see if he's still second to Lamar in quarterback rushing yards. Yes, second to Lamar in quarterback rushing yards.

And he's already got multiple signature moments, Tommy, too. He's got the throw to Terry McLorn in the Cincinnati game. the Hail Mary. You know, he led him on a game-winning drive in week two against the Giants. And it almost gets over, you know, forgotten. But he did this when his ribs taped up with people not knowing if he was going to play or not that day. Yeah. So not only did he do it, but he did it under duress.

Yeah, I don't know how much duress he was under, but they certainly didn't call a game like he was going to be under duress. He was great. And he was great. He was just incredible during the game. Even before that play, even though the kind of the points didn't reflect prior to that play what they had done during the game.

I talked about this on my first podcast Sunday night. It would have been a really bad loss. They were just the better team for basically three and a half quarters. You know, you see teams lose games like that all the time, but that one would have been unfortunate. Look, it let one of the many things the Hail Mary did, it let Benjamin St. Juice off the hook for that pass interference plate. I put them at the goal line. Yeah, I mean, you know, Cooley talked about it yesterday, and he nailed it. It's like it's fourth and three and you're playing off coverage.

He said you can't get beat by a double move when you're playing. off. You know, you can get beat if you're up, but if you're playing back, you're basically playing for the double move. They had the, you know, an easy fourth and three pitch and catch if that had been a quick out because of how far back he was playing. But because of, you know, being seven, eight yards, you know, off the line of scrimmage, you can't get beat on a double move on that. And he did. And, and yeah, and Chicago had a lead. I mean, because there's a good chance. you know, Chicago doesn't, they don't, they get a field goal out of that at best, maybe. Well, they couldn't kick a field goal. They were down by five.

They couldn't kick a field goal. They were down. Right. Yeah. Right. But he also probably made the best defensive play of the game, which was the fourth and one stop on DJ Moore in the first half. That was a great play that he made. Oh, one other thing about, you know, you brought up the pass interference plan on St. Juice. have watched more now, especially after the radio show today. I just spent a little bit of time just watching some of the defense. Johnny Newton was awesome in this game. Oh, according to what I've read, I mean, you know, the guy who covers the team for our paper, Liam. Yeah. And he just raved about the game that Johnny Newton had. Johnny Newton on the on by the way the the the pass interference call he just blows up the center and nails Caleb Williams right before he threw it.

Caleb Williams had to almost chuck it like he couldn't even throw it the normal way. But there are other plays in the game where 95 is just unblockable. And the thing that I would say about Newton, first of all, if you watched him at Illinois, he was the Big Ten defense. of the player of the year. He was an absolute monster as just a playmaker. And, you know, when the defense started off super slowly, I'm still not bought in even after Sunday. They got run on pretty easily. And let's face it, Caleb Williams, and one of the things I wanted to go back and watch is how much Caleb Williams missed. Caleb Williams missed a lot. He's also asked to do way too much, in my opinion. I'd like to get somebody to actually confirm that. It looks like he's got every

responsibility that a 10-year veteran quarterback would have. I don't think they've made it easy enough for him. But anyway, the guy that kept showing up over and over again was 95. Newton is truly an impact talent. If he's consistent there, they have now gotten a guy who's starting to come along that can make a big difference defensively for them. And a couple of weeks ago, I said, look, unless, you know, Sanra Still or Newton or somebody that we're not thinking about really steps up and ends up being an impact player, I can't see this defense getting back to close to something resembling average. Will Newton's an impact player?

He really is. And so they have three of them. They've got Louvre, they've got Wagner, and they've got Newton who are really impact players. By the way, I thought Duran played well, too. I thought Duran had moments, and I know I'm a big fan of Duran's, but he and Newton together might actually be better than he and John together. Phil Mathis has played some good football, too, for them. They're getting...

How do you put that together when you said they got run on to East? Good, fair point. I think there's still some of what they, you know, refer to as kind of gap integrity. you know, a lot of the, what happens up front is for the linebackers and for whichever safety is in the box, Juan Martin, as an example, to make, you know, a lot of the tackles. Wagner is, you know, Wagner's a tackling machine. And Martin and Louvre are there as well. But yeah, I mean, I thought they did a good job in the first half against the run.

I also thought Chicago just looked discombobulated pretty much for three-quivoc. orders until that 56-yard run by DeAndre Swift for the touchdown. But, yeah, no, it's they, Newton is definitely a playmaker, Tommy. He is a, he's an interior pass rusher. He can get to the quarterback from that position. And on a couple of the pressures, he's literally lined up as, you know, a zero technique, like over the center. And he's blowing up the center.

Not every time as he lined up there. They move Louvo around all over the place. But anyway, they may have, without trading for him at the deadline, which is a week from today, they might have a player who was injured, didn't play early, who now could be a significant second half of the season disruptive player defensively. So, and that, by the way, from that position, you can really elevate everything around you. Everything, once he starts to get the attention of the other team, which I would imagine based on this tape, he will, you're going to start to see, you're going to start to see some of that.

Okay, you tell me when we're done with the euphoria part. Oh, boy. Can we be done with the euphoria part? How long before Cliff Kingsbury is on the bare sidelines as they had. Okay, I see. I thought you were going to hit me with something like, you know, they just beat the only team that they've beaten with a winning record. No, I don't pay it.

You can only play who's in front of you. I know. I know. It doesn't mean that you can't analyze what you've played. I mean, the future is pointing towards Cliff Kingsbury. but he ain't going to be here long. Okay. Being the head coach for Caleb Williams.

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, we're eight games into the season. More than half the season remains. I know, but, you know, I mean, it's something to think about for the future. This is why, this is why, like, you've talked about this. You don't get that many opportunities in the NFL to get this far and to have an impact on the season, especially this franchise. You know, so that's why they should be all, I mean, that you could argue they should be all in now

because you don't know how long the offensive team is going to be calling the shots for them. I hear you on that, and I did say that, and I do believe that the NFL is, you know, not for long. but at the same time, it can be for long if you've got the right quarterback. And they got the right quarterback. And if he stays upright and healthy, they're going to have several of these seasons over the next 10 years. I mean, let's just say over the next five to seven years at least, where they're going to have, we're going to be having this conversation about how much to go for it. because they're legitimately a contender in the NFC.

I don't think they're better than Detroit. I don't know if they're better than Green Bay. Green Bay's got a quarterback that gets injured a lot. Jordan loves injured again. The two Philadelphia games are going to be massive games, and Philly has really gotten it together, and they're very talented. And San Francisco, I'd certainly be concerned about them if they're healthy,

but this team has a chance to get a, one or a two seat. I brought that up to you two weeks ago. And they haven't lost since. I think you said at the time, well, when do you start having that conversation when they're five and two or six and two? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They're, But they also, the emergence of Newton is big. I just want to see, I think it's going to take until that Thursday night game against Philadelphia to see how far along the defense is coming, whether or not they can really win and, you know, rip off three straight playoff games to get to a Super Bowl with this defense.

Because the Giants aren't going to test them that much with their offense. The Steelers, after last night, man, God, Russell Wilson looked great with Pittsburgh last night. So that'll be a bit of a test. But the Eagles game, that's going to be a test. That Thursday night game, November 10th, all right, two weeks from this Thursday. Wow, that is a huge game. You know, assuming, by the way, Philadelphia has two games before that, Washington does too, Philadelphia plays Jacksonville in Dallas the next two weeks.

We have the Giants and the Steelers. So that is, I mean, the Steelers game is going to be a big game, but it's not as big as a division game. but I mean, the euphoria and the Cliff Kingsbury thing, I mean, it's, it's, those are the, you know, those are the things you have to put up with when you win big. I know that. I know that. That's one of the, that goes along with success. Yep. You know, people want, want a piece of your success.

And that would be a big piece. Yeah. Yeah. You know, Tommy, there's something else to it, though. You know, the way they filled out their coaching staff and just take the offensive side to begin with, after Kingsbury, you know, they've got, they brought back to Vita Pritchard. They hired David Blow. David Blow is thought to be a real up-and-coming star. I mean, he's apparently, he was very sought after, and he picked here. He's the assistant quarterbacks coach. Tevita Pritchard is the quarterbacks coach. You know, you've got a guy like Anthony Lynn on the staff. You know, so you've, you hired, you know, keeps coming back to Dan Quinn and really the decision by Harris and Peters to hire Dan Quinn.

He put together a really good staff for this year, but he also kind of put together a staff for when they have success. I mean, I don't want to say that he was thinking successors when he hired out his staff, but in Pritchard and in Blow, they probably have the next offensive coordinator if they lose Kingsbury already on their staff, already having been a part of Jaden Daniels' first season. Well, I bet everybody feels better already. Well, I'm just saying They have a good staff They have some depth to their staff

So, you know, good luck, Cliff We hardly got a chance to get to know you He's doing a great job He's doing an outstanding job And I thought, you know, Joe Witt Jr. I thought Sunday watching Caleb Williams and Chicago be confused as much as they seem to have been, you know, sometimes that credit goes to the

defensive coordinator. So I'm happy that they had a good day. It was not a good quarter. No, it wasn't. But I don't have, you know, my concerns about Joe Witt Jr. from the beginning were concerns about the fact that he's never been a defensive coordinator before. Right. I think the defense has gotten better over the course of the season.

So, you know, they may have found themselves a defensive coordinator, a legit one. They found themselves a head coach, I'll tell you that. And they found themselves a quarterback. The head coach is really a big part of something that just feels right, you know, whether they get there or not this year or next year. But everything about the vibe is completely different. He's a very positive guy. He's very encouraging. You asked him, what was the question?

I played the question and answer on the radio show yesterday. What did you ask him? Well, I asked him, does he remember what he did when he saw the past was caught? Did he remember who he saw or grabbed the Valvano? He gave you the Valvano comment. Yeah. Yeah. Which I thought was a good answer.

And it was true. Yeah. He showed video of him and he's running around on the field. Right. You know who to celebrate with. Right. I mean, the whole story Sunday was to play. You know?

So I just wanted to know what were you doing when you knew it was a touchdown? That was the reason I asked. My son basically said he has not seen me react that way in a long, long time. I mean, we both went nuts and jumped out of our seats. in the couch that we were on. And it was, it just was so, it was so shocking.

You know, a lot of times on a Hail Mary, you're like, did he? Did he? Let's see them. I'm covered. Does he have the football? Because it's a big jump. And everybody's going for,

you know, the jump ball. And did the receiver, did the guy catch it? He might have, I don't know. What happened on Sunday was a guy catching it by himself.

Nobody around them. They flipped the ball to Noah Brown. It's like they just flipped it to him. Let's make this really easy. You stand behind you. We're just going to flip it right back to you. Look, if you did not explode with disbelief, if not joy, from that moment, then you need to have your pulse check.

Oh, no doubt. I mean, you don't. You don't even have to be like a big football fan. You just need to know a little bit about football to have jumped out of your seat with no interest in either team and said, Holy shit. Yes. Yeah. Yes.

Yeah. So what will we do next week? What else can this kid do? What will he do to surprise us? Well, you've got the two leading. candidates the next two weeks for defensive player of the year. You've got Dexter Lawrence, who I think still leads the league in sacks, and then you've got T.J. Watt, who made, you know, a game-changing play last night. Well, I actually want to talk about that play if we get a moment

later on in the show, because Brian Dable completely threw his quarterback under the bus. And by the way, this just in, it looks like they're going to start Daniel Jones Sunday. He's sticking with Daniel Jones and against Washington Sunday. But in terms of what can he do next, I mean, he's going to get Dexter Lawrence and T.J. Watt in back-to-back weeks. And I wouldn't say that, you know, with the Giants the way they've played the last couple of games, that he can really, you know, put something out there that is unexpected. But what if they just, you know, go through.

butter like a knife through warm butter against the Steelers. What if that happens? Because the Steelers are pretty good defensively. Yes. I don't know. Go to Philadelphia on Thursday night, two weeks from Thursday night and shred the Eagles and a big, you know, that would be big.

The Steelers is a big, or that's a big game. I mean, we shouldn't diminish the Steelers. Right. But you're right. The team that you're going to have to get past probably to have real postseason aspiration are the Eagles. Yeah. Yes, you are. That team has a lot of talent, and it was just dysfunctional with the coach and whatever.

They've won three games in a row, and they're more than capable of making a big run with the players they have. They have stars on that team. Yeah, I mean, look, they are five and two. They lost a game in week two when Sequin Barclay dropped like a ball that a dad would throw to a six-year-old in the backyard. And so Kirk took the Falcons down the field and beat them, you know, essentially with a walk-off. And then they lost to Tampa when they didn't have anybody playing. No A.J. Brown, no Devante Smith. and they've won every other game.

So they are very, you know, their Sequin Barclay drop away from being in first place right now in the division. But I don't know, man, offensively, I don't think anybody can stop Washington. Honestly, I just don't see anybody being able to stop them. I don't think anybody can stop the commanders. I don't think anybody can stop them offensively. I'll be shocked if somebody completely stops them.

I know that the point totals weren't there Sunday, but they had 481 yards of offense. Yeah. I mean... What do you think Terry McClure is feeling these days? He is playing at such a high level. Yes, he is. He really is. He's playing at a top-pad level, isn't he?

He is playing at a really high level. You know, we can wait for the receiver comparisons until the season's over. I know. There's still receivers that would be, you know, above him for me, but he is playing at a high level right now. I love the way he's playing. They are... Such a stand-up guy.

I mean, such a stand-up guy. Yeah. It really is amazing. They got so lucky with that kid. Yeah. All right. What else from Sunday? I'm going to remain euphoric for a little more, if that's okay.

Just maybe another couple of days or weeks. I think you should And you shouldn't You know worrying about sending Cliff Kent Kingsbury say thank you for staying a card or anything like that

We got other things We got other things to get to We'll start doing that Right after these words from a few of our sponsors Is there anything better when you're a football fan Than this time of year? It seems like there are games on around the clock It's a changing time of year

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estimate. And right now you get access to two free windows with every two purchased. Call them at 86690 Nation or head to wind donation. So on this Tuesday, as we are recording this podcast, there's a lot of breaking NFL news. Stefan Diggs out for the season with a torn ACL. That hurts Houston, because Nico Collins has been injured as well. The Ravens traded for Panthers receiver, Deontay Johnson. The receivers have certainly been traded here. And prior to the trade deadline, we've seen a lot of receiver movement.

there's no word on what the compensation was. But he'll team up well with Zay Flowers and Rashad Bateman. The Colts benched Anthony Richardson turned back to Flacco. They should have done that before last week because the game against Houston was a huge game in their division. And it was winnable with Richardson. So it certainly would have been winnable with Flacco. and they didn't win it, so they're four and four, they could have gotten to five and three. And how about Anthony Richardson basically bowing out because he got tired after a big play in a close game in the fourth quarter?

Holy shit. Can we take out, I'll get off our lawn signs to do this? Is this a generational issue? I don't think so. No? I don't think so. Do you? Well, I mean, I think it fits.

Do you think Pat Mahomes would have taken himself out of a game because he was tired? It's just a little bit older. Okay, you think Jayden Daniels would take himself out? He didn't want to take himself out of the game with a rib injury. That's true. That's true. Okay, you beat me down. All right. You know, Richardson is an extraordinary physical specimen, too. That's the irony of it. He is basically Cam Newton. I mean, he is massive. He's 65.

He's 255 pounds. He is such an athlete. I really loved his potential coming out of Florida. And I said, like, I don't know if he should be drafted that high. But if I were an organization without one, I would have taken a flyer on him. But one of the things that was absolutely agreed upon by everybody about Richardson is he was going to need time. like real time because he had played so little in college, well, you know, you can't tap out in a divisional game like that.

No. He turns out that he needed time. He needed rest time. He did need rest time. And so old Joe Flacco, Han's going to come back in. And he, I mean, look what happened in Cleveland last year when he came in. They went to the playoffs. That indie roster is also a.

pretty good roster. You watch, they'll make a bit of a run with Flacco. They already are two and one with him starting. And, you know, look at what James Winston did Sunday, too, real quickly. I just love, James Winston is a professional quarterback. I know that he has had years in which he's thrown just as many interceptions, you know, the year in Tampa when he had like 35 touchdowns and 32 interceptions or whatever it was. But when you, you. watch James Winston play, if you don't see a quarterback, I mean, look at the difference in the Browns with him versus the guy that was completely disinterested in Deshawn Watson. And by the way, a guy that really, you know, I don't know James Winston, I know this, that everybody that seems

to cover him, play with him, coach him, they love him. And he, he's, he, he's, he, he's, beat the Ravens on Sunday. He did have a ball dropped by Kyle Hamilton that would have ended the game. It should have been an interception. But so there's NFL news breaking with respect to the Giants. I already mentioned that, that they're going to stick with Daniel Jones. Jordan Love avoided a serious groin injury, so that's good for the Packers. And back to the John... How about those? How about those jets and that weasel at quarterback? the Jets, who you poked up the last time I was on. I did. I did. And I'm, and I still, like, I didn't watch the game Sunday because that was like the first game they haven't had that they've had that hasn't been nationally televised.

But they became the first team to score 20 plus points, Tommy, not turn the ball over, and not allow 250 yards to lose a game in NFL history. That's the Jets for you. That's the Jets for you. How the kicker, Greg Zerline, is still on the team, is beyond me. He's now cost them two games. He missed the field goal to beat the Broncos. He missed a P.A.T.

and a field goal against the Patriots. That's two games that they should have won with a kicker. And not to mention, what am I talking about? He missed two field goals against the bills in a three-point loss. Yes, yes, he did. They're favored against Houston Thursday night. I know, I saw that. They're favored.

Look, there's clearly a lot of shit going on there. I will maintain what I said to you last week that Aaron Rogers still looks like Aaron Rogers the way he throws the football. They've played the best defenses in the NFL in the first half of their season, but I don't think the offense has been the problem personally. I think their defense has regressed significant,

significantly from last year, and they've got a kicker problem. But they're two and six, so there's no way to make this pig look pretty. No, I think Aaron Rogers has a leadership problem, to be honest with you. There's probably a lot of truth to that. But I think people who have said, yeah, he's terrible. He's just over the hill. You haven't watched the games because he's not throwing it any differently. But whatever. Back to the Giants real quickly. So last night in their loss to the Steelers, and I had them in the Smell Test, so I did not win that game. They were getting six. Smell Test did come through this weekend with a winning weekend. So first one in the last

three weeks, I guess it is, been rough. But still hovering right there, a couple of games below 500, with lots of season to go. But the Giants were in this game. And they were the only, the only reason you didn't give him much of a chance to win it is Daniel Jones just isn't very good. And there's a play late in the game. He turned the ball over two times in the fourth quarter. Both times they were down by eight and driving in Pittsburgh territory. They were at the Pittsburgh 19-yard line with three minutes to go in the game down 26 to 18. And it's third down in six-ish, something like that. And they block T.J. Watt. with the right tackle only.

Well, everybody understands that in a passing situation, you cannot block T.J. Watt with one player. They did. He blew by the one player. He stripped-sack Daniel Jones recovered it, and Pittsburgh had the ball. Now, the aftermath of the game was Brian Dable, the head coach of the Giants,

being asked about that play. And he did something, Tommy, you rarely see a coach do. He explained exactly what happened on the play. He said, DJ, as in Daniel Jones, didn't handle the protection correctly. He needed to motion the tight end over to help on T.J. Watt with the right tackle, to essentially double team. And he said, DJ, when he comes up here, he'll explain it to you. He just didn't handle it the right way.

We have that protection check in. He needed to motion the tight end towards T.J. Watt to double Team Watt to avoid what happened happening. And Daniel Jones stepped to the podium right after the coach did and said, I messed it up. I needed to motion the tight end towards T.J. Watt, and I just didn't do it. It was my fault. When I heard that from Daibel, I'm like, well, he's certainly not going to play against Washington. There's no way. Like, that's it, right?

Do you don't, the coach doesn't explain that kind of thing in detail. The coach says, yeah, we didn't really want to block T.J. one-on-one, but I'll have to go back and, you know, that one's on me. Booster backup, the Italian stallion? No, no, no, no. He might be on the team. Drew Locke is on the team. Okay.

Yeah, they signed Drew Locke. They, you know, part of that Giants, you know, what you call it, show, why am I blanking on, you know, Hard Knocks? The Giants' off-season Hard Knocks was discussing Flacco as the backup to Daniel Jones. but he was a bit more money than Drew Locke was, so they passed on him. But you just don't see that. And somebody pointed out to me, because I talked a little bit about this on radio today. They sent me the clip of the Manning cast, which I didn't really watch last night.

But apparently right before the play, Eli Manning's going, you got a motion the tight end. You can't leave Watt one-on-one. And then you see Eli just throw his arms up like, how did they do? that. Daniel Jones can't play the position well. You know, he's got some ability, but he can't, he doesn't play the position well. We have sang the phrases of Daniel Jones in the past. Well, most people haven't. I have, and I've been wrong. I actually like, I actually like, I have to. I liked Jones coming out probably more than others did. The 2022 season, the first one with Dable, he was outstanding. But no, dead wrong on Daniel Jones. He can't, he can do things. He's certainly very

capable as a dual threat guy. He just can't play the position. There are too many times where you're like, throw it, throw it. Nope. And it's late. It gets picked or he gets sacked. And there's a perfect example. Everybody understands that that was his responsibility to to motion the tight end to give the right tackle help against the number one havoc wreaker, or certainly a top three havoc wreaker in the NFL. And so he didn't do it and he got strip sacked. They got the ball back again and he threw an interception as they moved into Pittsburgh territory to end the game.

And yet he's going to start against Washington. And look, the Giants can run the football a little bit. Tyrone Tracy was great last night. Singletary's good. Jones can run. Tracy got injured at the end of that game. It would be great if he were out Sunday because he had over 145 yards against that Pittsburgh defense. But it'd be great if he were out. Malik Neighbors is uncoverable, but he doesn't have a good enough quarterback to feed him as much. Look, Washington was lucky to beat the Giants in week two. The only reason they won that game is

Graham Ganoe got hurt in pre-game warmups or on the opening kickoff. whatever it was, opening kickoff. Yeah, when Echler almost returned it, or did return it for a touchdown, but it got called back. Isn't that what happened? That seems like so long ago now. Isn't that what happened? Echler returned the opening kickoff for a touchdown? And it got called back on the penalty,

I'm pretty sure, and Gano got injured. Yeah, here it is. He returned it 98 yards. Ballour number 57 got called for holding. Washington's only a three and a half point favorite on Sunday. World Series, Tommy, is not going the way anybody really wants it to go. No. No, it's not. Nobody wants a beat down. And that's what it's been. Can we just...

Did not bring their lineup with them. And Aaron Judge is having a slump for the ages. Oh, my God. Can we go back to Friday night, though, the Grand Slam walk off? Freddie Freeman, by the way, Homer again last night. that was just it was just awesome. Baseball this time a year when you get a game like that is just incredible. And to see him take that first pitch with the bases loaded to end, it was incredible. I know that people were comparing it to Kirk Gibson, the whole thing.

That was a great game. It was a great game. Great game. And it's a big inning. he hits the walk-off home run. Yeah. And there's nothing been great since then. The Stanton-Homer in that game to give him the lead in the sixth was unbelievable.

Tommy, that's such a great point because I'm on this group text with a bunch of high school friends, usually watching, you know, watching sporting events. And at one point somebody said, you guys watching this? This is a really good game. And I was, I'm like, this is a great game. And it was only like the eight. thinning. Yeah. But,

and then it ended so dramatically. You know, the Dodgers have been getting excellent starting pitching. Bueller was correct. Yeah. Yeah. You had two pitchers with Tommy John surgery making the start

last night against each other. Yeah. I read a stat. I think that 40% of the pitchers in baseball now have had Tommy John surgery. No, I'm rooting for the Yankees. because I want to see the series go on.

I don't want to see a sweep. I know. That's not what anybody wants. Certainly not Fox. Certainly not baseball, because there was a lot of attention at the beginning of this series. And it's funny how a football weekend,

you know, for a lot of us, I'm not saying for you, you know, it gets away from you a little bit. I watched Friday night. It was awesome to watch. And then, you know, Saturday night, there's a lot of college football going on. Sunday,

NFL, and it's like, oh, let's not forget, game three's tonight. That's last night. And it could be over. Yeah, and it could be over in, you know, in seven or eight hours. And so that would be bad. I'm rooting for the Yankees, too. Judge just a horrible, horrible postseason. And look, they're getting beat, they're getting swept right now by a team whose best

player, the best player in this series is far from 100%. He's one for a, I think he's won for 11. in this series. Otani. Yeah. Yeah, did you see him last night when you, or you didn't watch the game? I watched a game last night. Oh, okay. When he was on base, when he was on first. Yeah, holding his thing. Yeah.

Basically holding his shoulder in. Yeah. I'll tell you what, that goes a long way with your teammates playing like that in a game like that. I'm sure if they didn't respect him before, I'm sure they certainly do now. Well, did they respect him before? Dodgers? I have no reason to think they didn't, but I think this is newfound respect. For the Dodgers, the series is important because they've been the biggest spender in baseball. They've got out. They've had the most talented team year and year out and really have not had anything to show for it.

The 2020 World Series, that was the COVID World Series. No one takes that seriously. Right. I know they got rings. I know they got a penned, but no one cares. this would finally be a validation of the talent that that Dodgers team has. Yeah. Is Clayton Kershaw even on the roster anymore? Do you know? I don't know. I don't know.

Okay. I don't know if he was left off the postseason roster. It was on the regular season roster or not. He was on the regular season roster for a while. I know he, I'm pretty sure he pitched some this year, didn't he? pretty sure he did I think he did yeah

but he must not be on the postseason roster because he is not he has not made one appearance in the postseason so far all right a few other things to finish up on including a 50 year anniversary of a significant event

is tomorrow but we'll talk about it today we'll get to that right after these words from a few of our sponsors. So guys, if you're like me and you've basically been buying and wearing this same type of underwear for years, in my case, boxer briefs, same brand, same type for a long time, well, not anymore for me. I want to tell you about skims for men, something I've discovered recently, the softest underwear

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Shop skims, men's at skims.com. Let them know I sent you. After you place your order, select podcast in the survey and select my show in the drop-down menu that follows. That's skims men's at skims.com. select podcast in the survey and select my show, the Kevin Sheehan show, in the drop-down menu that follows. All right, Tommy, tell us about Shelley's. Well, if there was ever a night to have a celebratory cigar at Shelley's back room, Sunday night was the night.

Yeah. You know, leaving Northwest Stadium. I went to Shelley Sunday night, and there were a number of commanders. Sanders fans in there. But this shows you what kind of place Shelley's is. It's an adult place, you know? And there's room for compassion

at Shelley's back room, even in the most euphoric moments. Over in the corner of the bar, in two bar schools sat two bears fans. Okay? I watched them. They had their backs to me, and I watched them for a long time,

and they had their heads buried in their phones, and they were together, a man and a woman, didn't say anything to either of them for like 20 minutes, 25 minutes at least, just buried in the misery of their phones and the pain and suffering of their defeat. But nobody came up to bother. One guy was wearing a Peyton jersey. The woman had a Bears jersey on, you know, and no commander's fans thought of it. Yes, Walter Payton. No commander's fans thought to, you know, go over and maybe give him a hard time. They were able to wallow in their own misery at Shelley's backroom because Shelley's is all-inclusive, okay?

You're having a bad day? Shellies is the place you want to go. If you're having a great day, Shelley's is the place you want to go. You can go there at Shelley's Backroom at 1331, F Street, Northwest, in the district. You can find out more at shelley's backroom.com. So before we get to what tomorrow is a 50-year anniversary of, you wanted to talk about the Wizards. They won. I know they won.

They won their first game. You know, usually you got to wait eight or nine games into the season before they get a win. That's not true. You know? That's not true. So they lost their first two. And then they won this one. And the reason I wanted to talk about it was I had a chance.

to have some drinks with an NBA scout who came through town recently at all places. Shelly's back room. Of course. And he's very high on Kubali. Kula Bali, yes. Very high on him. Yeah. He thinks he can be a real good peace.

Yeah. But he mentioned peace. And this team has, he said, two or three players that can be good pieces. they don't have a real core yet, and they don't have that guy yet. But he's high on Bob Carrington and particularly high in Kulabali. And defensively, from what I read, I didn't watch the game. He seemed to turn in a pretty good performance last night against Trey Young. An excellent performance against Trey Young, in fact.

I watched some of the game last night. I'm not going to sit here and tell you I watched a lot of it because I had the baseball and football on, but I watched the condensed version very early this morning for this one reason. I had Brian Keefe on the show today on the radio show. So if you want to listen to The Wizards Head Coach, he's an excellent guest, by the way, really nice guy. I've had him on before when he got the job or maybe shortly before he went from interim to head coach.

But I had him on, and we talked about Ballal-Culabal. because one of the things that stood out is he, Tommy, he's got real potential. I mean, you could see it last year a little bit, but he's 20 years old. I mean, this is the thing about NBA and trying to project, but this guy has the physical, you know, makeup because he is tough and he's so long armed and he's going to grow into it to his frame currently. he is a very good defender. And Trey Young was two for 15 from the floor. If you're interested in this at all, and I know many of you are like,

can you get back to something important here? But just watch the last possession. Trey Young is just hounded by Kulabali and basically just chucks one up that had no chance of going in at the buzzer and the Wizards won the game by two. He is a really, really interesting guy. I think he can handle the ball on offense.

I think he's got a decent stroke. I think there's a lot offensively he will become, but he is, you know, he's legit defensively as a 20-year-old. And then I thought that Alex Saar showed a lot last night. I watched basically the first game, didn't watch any of the second game, and I watched the condensed version of last night. Again, I wouldn't have done that. I'm not trying to make myself out to be a glutton for punishment or even the opposite of that of some sort of, you know, wizard's hero.

I just wanted to watch it because I was having the coach on the air today. You know, Tommy would have just read a couple of tweets and would have been ready for the interview. I actually wanted to watch the game in preparation for the interview. And Alex Saar is impressive. He does like to shoot some threes. That's for sure for a seven-footer. But he actually has a good stroke. But where his presence is clearly felt is also on the defensive end.

He's a shot blocker. He's a rebounder. So the two French guys, Sarr and Kula Bali, it's early on Sarr. He's 20 years old too. Or he's 19 years old. But the other guy that I think is really interesting is Bob Carrington. They took him in the first round from him. pit. He's also just 19 years old, but my God, does he compete? This kid's got some tough, tough,

competitive stuff going on. Like, you can tell he's not really caring much about the players that he's playing against being in the league for eight, nine, ten years and being much older than him. He shot it well last night, too, but he really gets after it. High motor. tough, competitive. I like Carrington so far. But, you know, we'll see. I mean, long way to go. Kuzma shot the lights out.

I asked the coach about Kuzma. He loves him. Everybody loves Kyle Kuzma. And Jordan... Oh, oh, oh, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, one minute, baby. What? Scal told me what I already knew about Kuzma. What?

He's a fraud. Everybody in the league knows he's a fraud. He's hiding in Washington. Didn't want to go to Dallas because he likes getting his $25 million, 22, 22,000. He likes being on Laverro Island? And nobody asked anything of him. I didn't make this up. This is the league.

This is the league view of Kyle Kuzma. Yeah. Well, the league view of Kyle Kuzma as a person is not a fraud. And in fact, you should actually take that back. He's an incredible, he's incredibly charitable. He is very good within this community that he's living in, and the community in which he comes from in Michigan. If you want to say he's a fraud as a player, if you want to say he's a fraud as a player and you think he's hiding here because there's no pressure on him, that's fine. But every single person I've talked to, not your scout friend, but people that actually are in the organization or close to the organization say that as a person, he's a very good person.

person. That you were talking about personal relationships, given your intimate personal relationship with the wizard, I was talking about him as a player. That's what I just said. That's the only thing. I don't have to say that. What else are we talking about? Well, when I said, when I said, well, you don't, you may be talking about him as a player

on Laverro Island, but you aren't talking about him personally as a fraud. You said, yes, I am. No. Well, then you just misunderstood me. Okay, that's fine. That's fine. But let me just say this. I, you,

you seem to love people like that. So why are you so down on Kuzma for doing what you do personally? What are you talking about? Hiding out on Levera Island, no expectations, low bar. Just send the checks, but I don't want to have to talk to my boss. And I don't want anybody to expect. much from me. Yeah, but I don't, I don't, I don't do it for the last place team in the league.

That's true. We're number, we're number one for local podcasts content in the football category, right now. Yeah. I don't do it for the last place team in the league. By the way, if I had the coach on, as a guest, I wouldn't have to do a lot of research. I just have one question for him. What? How's the deconstruction page going for the team?

I forgot to ask him. Damn, I wish I had remembered about the deconstruction line. That wasn't his line, though. That was Winger, or Dawkins. Will Dawkins. Yeah. Yeah. It's botts.

Right. Yeah. You know, if you know that secretly, not even secretly, that's not secretly, but I am a big Wizards fan, and I do want them to be, like, I would love it if I had an NBA team, the Wizards. in my hometown, I've been a lifelong Bullets Wizards fan, if they were like legitimately an upper tier NBA franchise, I think it would be a lot of fun for this city.

Because the NBA, I know you don't love it, and a lot of people listening, you know, don't necessarily love it. And I get it. It's impossible during the regular season. But there is a chance now that they're doing it the right way finally. But I wonder. when they do get there, if they do get there, in five years, if I'll even have any interest anymore. But this is all, this season is all about Cooper Flag. He plays at Duke. He plays at Duke.

And, you know, I'm watching the condensed version. I'm like, man, Kula Bally's pretty good. You know, Kyle's really, Kyle can really play. He's a very good player when, you know, when they're aren't any expectations on him and he's hiding out in Washington. You know, I just, we said that, actually, you said this last year. Wasn't it you who was concerned they were going to win too many games after like their first couple of weeks? Yes, because I've been high on Kula Bali since they've drafted them. Yeah.

All right. We're losing people from listening to this podcast right now. I know, I know. 50 years ago tomorrow, the Rumble. in the jungle. Ali Foreman in Kinsasha, Zaire, Africa.

I know you remember everything about this fight, so I'm going to just turn it over to you, but I will tell you because you know this. My father, who was a massive fight fan, which turned me into a fight fan in the 70s and 80s and really 90s, not as much as I used to be now, but I'll never forget.

He went and watched this on closed circuit and I was like trying to wait up to see what happened, but just hearing detail after detail the following day about this fight. So you tell me about the Rumble in the Jungle, Ali shocking the world and upsetting George Foreman. Well, it was more than a fight. It was like a historic event. I mean, a fight took place in the heart of Africa.

Right. You know, Zaire, Africa, with the money, paid to both fighters put up by the dictator of the country. You know, he put up $10 million, $5 million apiece to be split between Ali and Foreman. Mobudo, right? Yes, the press corps consisted of Norman Mailer, Hunter Thompson, Bud Scholberg, George Plimpton. It was, if somebody asked me if you could go back in time and cover one event, this would be it. to have been in the middle of Africa

with those writers like covering this event and people feared for Ali's life Foreman had destroyed Joe Fraser who beat Ali in 71 in 15 rounds destroyed him in two rounds he former

destroyed Ken Norton who had broken Ollie's jaw in earlier fight in two rounds people feared for Ali's life going into this fight. And that's why what he did shot everybody. And I think it changed the conversation about Ali forever.

I think that the ring courage that he showed in that fight changed the conversation about him forever. There's a lot of other things that did, too. But I think that's contributed to it. And you know, it's interesting. Recently, I stopped by

Ali's old training camp in Deer Lake Pennsylvania. It's right along Interstate 78, just a few miles off of 78, about 20 miles north of Reading. It's called Fighters Heaven. And I had been there, I spent much of the summer

of 78 there when he was getting ready for the Spinks fight. But John Madden's son, Mike Madden, bought the camp about five or six years ago and has refurbished it and restored a lot of the old stuff.

and turned it into a museum. And it's become a destination spot for class trips all around Pennsylvania that go there and learn about Ali. And it's open to the public on weekends. No admission. You can just stop by and see the ring where Ali trained. You can see his cabin where he slept, the kitchen where they used to hang out. Where is Deer Lake, Pennsylvania? you? It's, it's, uh, it's, uh, it's, uh, it's all right off of Route 61, uh, about 20 miles north

of Reading. Okay. And, uh, it's, it's, why, why there? Why there? Well, because Ollie was looking for something to get away from all the temptation, you know, he, he, he, they bought the land in 72 and he started training there, and he trained there from 72 to 81, uh, his last fight. And Ali loved it there. He used to get out his CB radio and talk to the truckers that were driving along I-78 nearby. He loved that the local people there loved Ali because the camp was open to anybody. Anybody could go into his camp anytime at all and watch Ali train. That's crazy. You know, you had celebrity there. You had the Jackson Five came. Yeah, Mike Douglas came, David Frost came, and then had all these local yokels.

who would show up in basically Pennsylvania Amish country to go there. But my point is the preparation he put training at that camp all that summer helped him in his win over Foreman. He was in tremendous shape because of the work he put in at Deer Lake. And I have a column running tomorrow in the Washington Times that talks about the impact that Deer Lake had. on the 4th on the victory over 4. Well, tell those that are listening that don't remember anything about the fight, what happened with Ali's essentially fighting for the first time with the Ropa Dope strategy. Right.

Ali had figured out that he could get George to punch himself out if he could withstand George's punches, you know, and not to the head. He would cover up and take the shots to the arm, to the body, And, you know, people who have documented Ali's life had said one of the blessings and curses of Ollie's career is in the second part of his career after he came back from being banned from boxing for three and a half years. He figured out he could take punishment. He figured out he could take a punch. And eventually that's been his downfall when he developed Parkinson's syndrome from boxing. but he took a lot of punches from Foreman, but not to the head.

He covered up. He'd take him to the elbows, to the shoulders, you know, to the body, and he just figured he would punch Foreman out and wait him out, and that's exactly what happened. George tired out. He had not been in long fights in many, much of his career, you know, because he was a wrecking machine. He got rid of people in the first couple rounds.

And then in that eighth round, Ali came off the rope with a one-two combination, and then a third chopping right hand that spin, form him down, put him down on the canvas, and Ali had won the championship back again that they stripped from him in 1967 for refusing to be inducted in the draft. You also had the build-up to it, which correct to me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the fight initially canceled? So it was delayed. Wait, say that again.

Foreman got hurt. Foreman got hurt training? Foreman got hurt training in Africa. So they had to stay there. So like a lot of people who were there covering a fight wound up staying there for four or five weeks because they were afraid that they weren't going to let them back in or that they weren't going to let them leave. Yeah.

But that's where Ali ended up developing this incredible relationship with the people of Zaire, because they started chanting Ali Bumayay, which was Kill Him, right? I think it was that. Yes. Look, at the movie to see is when we were king. Yeah, when we were kings. That is such a good movie. It's an Oscar-winning documentary.

You can find it, I'm sure, on streaming. Highly recommend it on this 50th anniversary of that event. And it was a bigger than a sporting event. It was far bigger than a boxing match. Yeah. The other thing, too, Tommy, hold on, and I'm just trying to look this up real quickly. So, I mean, that movie, you know, indicates, correct me up from wrong,

but it's like it was fought local time at like 3 a.m. in the morning or something. Three in the morning. Yeah. Three in the morning. So that it could be seen in the U.S. And as soon as the fight was over, yeah. As soon as fight was over, it poured rain. like Africa torrential rains as soon as the fight was over.

That fight I've watched many, many times, you know, on, I mean, it'll always be on something, and I'm sure it'll be on a lot tomorrow, perhaps, but it was David Frost, who was the play-by-play guy with Jim Brown and Joe Frazier. That's who called that fight for the closed circuit telecast. which, by the way, I'm reading right now, 60,000 people were there, and 50, where is it, an estimated 50 million viewers watch the fight on pay-per-view or closed circuit theater TV. The fight grossed an estimated $100 million, which inflation adjusted for now is $600 million. And he paid 10 million, he paid each fighter five.

million bucks. Don King. Don King. His first big fight promotion. You didn't he? Yeah. It was a major upset, too. Foreman was a four to one favorite against Ali. Four to one. People thought Ali was going to get hurt. Not just, not just lose, but get hurt. Yeah, Foreman had that sunny list and reputation. He had the sunny list. He had the Sonny Liston reputation. Yeah. Ali beat two of the baddest men in their time of all time. Foreman ended up being, you know, a big teddy bear afterwards, you know, later on in life.

But back then, he was one imposing dude. Yes, he was. And the second life of George Foreman is a remarkable story in itself. And I was ringside when Foreman knocked out Michael Moore. I know you talking about that. idle back at the age of 45. Yeah, you talk about that all the time. Do you know what his next fight was after Ali?

Was it Ron Lyle? It was. That, you've seen that one, right? That fight, I mean, to me, Herns Hagler is the most incredible three rounds ever, but go watch Foreman Lyle. Five brutal rounds. It's unbelievable.

Yes. Yeah. And then he fought Frazier again. I don't remember that. He T-K-Oed Frazier. That was the Manila fight. No, no. The Frasier fight, the first Frazier fight is the down goes, Frasier, down goes, Frasier, down goes Frasier in Manila.

Oh, Foreman. Oh, Forman fought. In Jamaica, I mean. Yeah. No, no. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, no. No, Ali's next big fight was the thrill in Manila.

Right. Yeah. Okay. But when you mentioned he fought Fraser again, you meant Foreman. No, I meant Foreman. I didn't know Foreman fought Frazier again. Yeah, he did.

It was very nondescript fight. Right. George has always had Fraser's number. Yeah. This is what George would have done, by the way, at the age of 45 to Mike Tyson. Same thing. Yeah. Ali, I'm assuming the next fight was Frazier.

Did he fight anybody else in between? I don't think so. Yeah, he, yeah, oh, yes, he did. He fought Chuck Wepner next. Oh, the weapon fight. I kind of remember that. That was, he was the big bleeder. Was he the bleeder?

Yeah, the Bayonne bleeder. Yeah. He was his nickname. Then he fought Lyle. Then he fought Joe Buggner, and then he fought Frazier in Manila. He had three fights after Foreman before Frazier. You know, they fought Frasier.

was just going to be another fight. They thought Joe was done. I mean, they signed up for that fight, think it was just going to be like the other ones. They never expected to fight out of Fraser that they got in Manila. They thought he was done. I didn't know that. I mean, I just know that that fight is one of the most incredible fights to watch on TV

or, you know, the old fights because it was brutal. both men looked like they were near death at the end of that fight. And Frazier, you know, his longtime trainer, Eddie Futch, right? threw in the towel, said he could not see. He was basically blinded. He could not see. One of his eyes was blinded, closed shut. Yeah.

And you know what? Ali was not going to come out for that round. He basically keeled over in his own corner after they, after they threw in the towel. Yeah. I mean, the thrill in Manila is an all-time great fight, right? Whereas the rumble in the jungle, Ali Foreman is just one of the great upsets in the history of the sport.

And again, it was a great event as much as anything. Right. Wild. God, the 70s, boxing. I know. People don't know how great it was. Yeah. All right. Anything else? This show's going on too long. I got nothing else for you today, boss. I know. I might have to cut the wizards. I might have to cut the wizard section out of the show to make you a little bit more consumable. All right. I'll talk to you on Thursday. We'll get your prediction on Washington Giants. Did you, you pick Chicago to win, didn't you?

Yes, I did. But we also didn't know who the quarterback would be. Right. Yeah. All right. Okay. I'll talk to you on Thursday. I'm back tomorrow. Wilbon will be on with me among perhaps two guests. See you then. Everybody stop talking now. Attention. I told you all of my critics. I told you all that I was the greatest of all time.

I want to be stunning. I told you today I'm still the greatest of all time. Never again defeat me. Never again say that I'm going to be defeated. Never again. Make me the underdog until I'm about 50 years old. Then you might get men.