The Kevin Sheehan Show - Haskins' New Body

Episode Date: May 15, 2020

Kevin opened with Quinton Dunbar arrest warrant news. He talked about the passing of Pepper Rodgers and his near head coaching job under Dan Snyder in Washington. Kevin also had Ben Golliver/Washington Post on the show to talk about the Kevin Durant documentary airing tonight on Showtime called "Basketball County: In the Water". <p> </p><p>Learn more about your ad choices. Visit <a href="https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices">podcastchoices.com/adchoices</a></p> Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You want it. You need it. It's what everyone's talking about. The Kevin Sheehan Show. Now here's Kevin. Ben Goliver from The Washington Post wrote this morning or late last night about this Kevin Durant documentary, which airs tonight on Showtime, called Basketball County in the Water, about the history of basketball in Prince George's County. PG County's produced more NBA players than any other county in the country. Ben Goliver, We'll join us a little bit later on in the show. Ben's really good, by the way, on the NBA as well. It should be a good conversation. We're going to get to the Quentin Dunbar story. Pepper Rogers passed away.

You know, Pepper Rogers was nearly a coach for the Washington Redskins back in the year 2000. We will talk about his input into the early Snyder days. And also, Dwayne Haskins, getting into shepherds. Ape. More on that coming up in a moment. But whether you're down on your luck or just down because you're stuck, you can find relief with MyBooky. That's mybooky.ag, where there's never a quarantine on fun. Now, there's a UFC card this weekend if you want to bet on that. You can bet on just about anything having to do with the UFC card. A lot of you may not be interested in that, but may be interested in all of the prop bets that are, available at my book, including a lot of political prop bets. But the NFL prop bets, the Super Bowl odds are up, the over-unders on season totals are up, regular season MVP odds are up, you know, defensive rookie of the year where Chase Young is the favorite offensive rookie of the year. All of the prop bets for the NFL season in 2020 are up there and you can start looking at them.

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You know, take baby steps until you figure out what you're doing. but you want to find a place that's reliable where if you win, you'll get paid, and mybooky.orgie.orgie is that place. All right, let's start with this just incredible story that broke last night on Quentin Dunbar and Dianne Baker, two players in the NFL, obviously we know who Quentin Dunbar is. Quentin Dunbar was traded just about a month ago to Seattle. You know, I was sitting here arguing that, you know, the Redskins' didn't get enough a fifth rounder. Now it looks like one of the great trades in franchise

history. But the best details of what happened per usual came courtesy of TMZ. TMZ, I don't necessarily know if they broke this story late yesterday afternoon, but they had most of the details of the story late yesterday afternoon. And it reads as follows, two NFL players, including a 2019 first round draft pick, and that would be DeAndre Baker. DeAndre Baker, a cornerback out of Georgia last year, was drafted 30th overall by the Giants. First round pick in 2019. DeAndre Baker and Quentin Dunbar were involved in an armed robbery, allegedly.

Bakers facing four charges of armed robbery and four charges of aggravated assault with a firearm. Quentin Dunbar is facing four counts of just-armed robbery, not the aggravated assault. TMZ described apparently what happened, or allegedly what happened. According to police, the two men were partying in Miramar, Florida, on May 13th, which was Wednesday night, when things took a disturbing turn. Cops say Baker and Dunbar were allegedly hanging out at a cookout, playing cards and playing video games when an argument broke out and Baker whipped out a semi-automatic firearm. Cops say the men began to rob the party guests with Dunbar assisting in taking watches and other

valuables at the direction of Baker. At one point, cops say Baker directed a third man who was wearing a red mask to shoot someone who had just walked into the party, but fortunately nobody was shot. law enforcement let TMZ know anyway that they made out with $7,000 in cash along with several valuable watches and that they're conflicting reports, by the way, on Dunbar as to whether or not he was armed or not. Some witnesses said yes, others said no. One witness told police that they had met Baker and Dunbar at a party a few days earlier, Miami, at which this witness said the players lost around $70,000 in cash in a high-stakes card game and other forms of gambling.

And the witnesses said they were gambling again on Wednesday night when the argument broke out. Baker allegedly flipped a table and busted out his weapon. According to police, some people at the party believed it was a planned robbery because when the three men were done taking valuables, there were three getaway cars strategically positioned to, quote, expedite an immediate departure, closed quote. The alleged getaway cars, according to a witness, were sick, a Lamborghini and Mercedes-Benz and a BMW.

The warrants for the two players' arrests have been issued. Now, one of the surprising things about this story is yesterday, which would have been the day after this incident took place. Quentin Dunbar held his introductory Zoom conference call with local Seahawk reporters. Now, he was in Florida on video on the call, and he said that he wanted, one of the reasons he was excited to be in Seattle was that, quote, you just want to feel wanted at the end of the day, I just hope to be able to repay them with the way I carry myself as a person, closed quote. So Dunbar, you know, wanted to get traded, really mouthed off a lot after Rivera was hired, and they apparently ignored him with respect to his contract request for a new contract,

and he wanted to be traded, then he didn't want to be traded. They finally traded him, and they got a fifth rounder from Seattle. Now, the day of the trade, I was like, not enough for Quentin Dunbar. Quentin Dunbar can play a little bit. Now, he's missed games. We know that. He's missed a lot of games the last two years. I thought he was going to be a perfect fit in Seattle.

And, you know, these are alleged at this point. But if true, he's going to jail. You know, if he, if this were, if these charges end up being true, Quentin Dunbar, you know, it's going to be a long time before he has a chance to play in the NFL again, if ever. The conversations that I've had with a few people, actually since the radio show ended earlier, is that this wasn't a case of the Redskins not wanting Quentin Dunbar back because they thought he was capable of something like this. You know, the people that know Quentin Dunbar, you know, I'm not so sure that they thought, you know,

he was the greatest dude of all time, but nobody that I talked to prior to this podcast beginning said that they would have ever expected Quentin Dunbar to be a part of something like. this. They didn't think he was this kind of person. Again, these are allegations, but if proven true. So I think that many, or at least those that I talked to, that would be, you know, at least three quarters of the way in the know, are surprised at this. But anyway, there you go on Quentin Dunbar. Pepper Rogers passed away yesterday at the age of 88 years old. For those those of you that don't know who Pepper Rogers was. Pepper Rogers, for starters, was a very good college football coach, a very good college football coach. Pepper Rogers coached at Kansas. He coached

at UCLA, and he coached at Georgia Tech. Won a lot of games. Was a colorful, you know, character, great storyteller. He ended up being the head coach of the Memphis showboats in the 1970s, I'm sorry, 1980s in the USFL, was there and coached in the CFL as well. But his coaching career, when he was the head coach in Kansas, he coached the Riggins brothers. He coached John's older brother, who was a much better baseball player and ended up becoming a professional baseball player. And he coached John Riggins at the University of Kansas as well. And then he ended up becoming the coach at U.S.

UCLA. And my first memory of Pepper Rogers was him as the Georgia Tech coach in the 1970s, you know, the mid to late 70s. Georgia Tech, you know, they've had various, you know, runs in college football, Bobby Ross, you know, basically shared a national championship with Georgia Tech back in 1990, I think it was. but he was a figure. He was a known college football guy. He then got involved with the Redskins. And Dan Snyder in particular, and he became the vice president of football operations for the Redskins

from 2001 through 2004. He took that job after Marty Schottenheimer was fired at the end of the 2001 season. He was also considered for the head coaching position when Norv Turner got fired. Now, the history of this, and I'm going to do my best to sort of remember it without looking up a bunch of stories from the past. But when Dan Snyder finally got ownership, he didn't want Norv Turner to be the coach. You know, he wanted to start from scratch, but it was really too late by the time he got control of the team in 1999 to do anything about Norv Turner. You know, there are reports and there's been discussion over the years that he tried to undo

the Brad Johnson trade with Minnesota that he didn't want Brad Johnson. Well, fortunately, it turned out that that was a good trade. The Redskins went to the playoffs that year, and Brad Johnson threw for over 4,000 yards in that particular season. But the, the Pepper Rogers, when Norve got fired at the end of the 2000 season, you know, when Terry Robisky ended up taking over for those final few games, when the Redskins were still seven and six, by the way, and still alive in the playoff hunt on that particular season. But, you know, they had missed a couple of field goals.

Eddie Murray, God bless him, told Norv he couldn't kick a 46-yard field goal, and they put him out there anyway. against the Giants. He missed the field goal. They lost the game 9 to 7. Their record fell to 7 and 6, and Norv got fired the next day. And Pepper Rogers was the guy that Norv wanted to hire as not only the interim coach, but potentially is the coach of the team in 2001. But the two coordinators at the time, Terry Robisky and Ray Rhodes in particular, who was the defensive coordinator, My memory is that Ray Rhodes essentially threatened to quit if Pepper Rogers got the job. Neither one of them was happy that Norve was getting fired with three games left.

But if my memory serves me correctly, Ray Rhodes didn't want the interim job, didn't want Norv to be fired, and said that if they hire Pepper Rogers, he's going to quit, essentially. Snyder sort of backed off the hiring of Pepper Rogers at that point and made Terry Robisky, or as Dion called him, Terry Rabinsky, made Terry Robesky the interim head coach for those final three games. And then, you know, prior to 2001, Pepper Rogers was considered to be a candidate for the job to replace North Turner or Terry Robesky at that point. You know, there were other guys like Butch Davis from Miami was a potential candidate for that job going into 2001. I'm forgetting who else was in the mix. You know, there was always discussion of Parcells or Gibbs, but Parcells wasn't going to come work for Snyder.

But Marty Schottenheimer did. You know, Marty Schottenheimer did come in 2001. And certainly we know that story. To me, still the single biggest mistake of the Dan Snyder era, was firing Marty Schottenheimer at the end of an eight and eight regular season start. It was just a massive mistake. Marty went eight and three down the stretch with Tony Banks and Kent Graham at quarterback and had that thing going in the right direction,

but, you know, Dan didn't want, you know, Marty to have total control. Marty demanded total control, which is the way you have to do it here, as we know. I don't know that we knew it then. Marty knew it then. Marty knew that he needed total control over the operation in 2001, where he wasn't going to take the job and it wasn't going to work. And he had total control. He was the head of football operations in addition to being the head coach.

And Dan and Fred Drasner and the rest of him weren't having any fun. You know, he kicked Vinny basically out of the building. He took Fred Drasner's parking spot away from him. I mean, Marty was a dictator. He was a dictator. But Marty won everywhere he went. And at the end of that season, you know, Dan's quote, you know, and I may be paraphrasing to a certain degree was, you know,

I like Marty and Marty did a great job, but, you know, we weren't involved and we weren't having any fun. And he, you know, he wants to do everything by himself and we want to be involved and we weren't having any fun. So that was that. And obviously the next move was to hire Steve Spur. which we know what happened there. But yeah, Pepper Rogers could have not only become the interim coach,

but it was possible that he had a chance if Dan doesn't get Marty to be the head coach. Now, I don't think that would have gone well. And no disrespect. And Pepper Rogers was, you know, by all accounts, just a great guy and a wonderful storyteller over the years. and Snyder had quotes about him, and I'll read him to you, about Pepper Rogers. I was terribly saddened to hear the news about the passing of Pepper Rogers. Anyone who knew Pepper knew what a genuinely good person he was.

He was a kind and gentleman who helped guide me as a young owner in the NFL. He had incredible knowledge of the game and was beloved by everybody in the organization. Tanya and I would like to extend our deepest condolences to Livingston, his wife. wife and the entire Rogers family during this time, closed quote. Yeah, I mean, he became, you know, along with Vinny, basically, you know, a very significant figure in the organization there for a few years after Marty left and before Gibbs came around. But rest in peace, Pepper Rogers, because Rigo's told stories about Pepper Rogers over the years and looks back on him with Fond. this as well.

So anyway, Pepper Rogers. What could have been, you know, maybe Pepper Rogers takes over in those final three games. They win those three games, go to the playoffs, win a couple games, and it's the beginning of the Pepper Rogers era. One more thing before we get to Ben Gulliver today. There was, J.P. Finley put this out, and I ended up reading it. just a few hours ago. Dwayne Haskins has dropped 11 pounds and 4% body fat in his first NFL off season.

I guess these quotes came from an interview that he may have done on some sort of XM serious show. I know that he was on J.P.'s podcast as well. But anyway, he's down to 220 pounds from 231 pounds, which is what he played. at last year, and he's lost more body fat. Now, keep in mind, you know, one of the things that I found interesting last year and watching him in the preseason, and I talked a lot about this, is I'm like, he looks like a different guy athletically. I didn't think he was very mobile at Ohio State, and I know that there were times

where he was mobile, and he didn't have to be that mobile. They protected him well, ball came out quickly to playmakers, and they were always off to the races. But John Kime also tweeted out, and I remember John Kime wrote about this during the season, I think, that he had lowered his body fat last year. He said at one point earlier in the season, he had told John Haskins had, that he'd gone from around 17% body fat to 13%. And John writes, you could see the difference in his movement,

some of which resulted in him feeling more comfortable too. It's true. You know, that was the difference. You know, one of the revelations last year was that Dwayne Haskins was more mobile than he appeared to have been at Ohio State. And I remember in the preseason saying, I wonder if he's lost weight or body fat. And then it was like a month later, a month and a half later, Kime had it in his story. And Kime, you know, reiterated that story today. And now he's lost more body fat and he's down to 220.

And by the way, he tweeted out a picture of himself. He looks slimmer. So good for him, you know. He's working. I mean, he's certainly working to get into shape. It looks good on him. And, you know, to have a little bit of more of that, I thought he was a really good playmaker last year.

I thought some of the scrambles he made. You know, one of the first plays he made as a pro in that giant game, no matter how disastrous the game turned out, was that big scramble that got him down. to first and goal on that first drive that he came in on. I think it was the first drive. I think it was the first half of the game. I think they ended up kicking a field goal, but still,

he's already competitive. He's already a guy that wants to make plays. He becomes more athletic quicker, and we saw that last year. If he's even more so this year, that's going to be a huge benefit to him, a huge benefit. All right, let's bring in Ben Goliver from the Washington Post, who wrote a story about the documentary that's going to air tonight, 9 o'clock on Showtime, Basketball County in the Water. This is the Kevin Durant produced documentary. Ben wrote about it today in The Post.

For those that are unfamiliar with this sort of big picture, what are they going to see tonight? Absolutely. Well, I think for people in your position, you're going to feel a level of pride because you're going to see some history that you probably already know, kind of reflected onto a national state. stage, and I think that was certainly one of the goals of basketball county, which just kind of spread the gospel of that local area. Now, for fans who are maybe across the country or they don't know as much about that particular region, they're going to find out why, you know, 25 to 30 NBA players in the last 20 years have all made it out of the same Prince George's County. And obviously, the figurehead of that generation would be Kevin Durant.

We're talking about an MVP, two-time finals MVP, two-time general. champion. And so he tells his story kind of coming up through the ranks, but it's not just about Kevin Durant. There's other guys, whether it's, you know, Michael Beasley, Nolan Smith, Quinn Cook, who has some pretty interesting personal stories. And really, I think the big takeaway from this movie is about the infrastructure or the institutions that are supporting these players, whether it's, you know, Demath Catholic High School program, whether it's the great public parks and recreation center system, whether it's the AAU programs like D.C. assault, it's a unique community that supports players in a way that some NBA guys just kind of don't have.

We hear these stories about like Janice, right? He comes out of nowhere in Greece. And I think Kevin's point here with this movie is that he didn't come out of nowhere. He came out of kind of a cradle of basketball that really supported him at every step of the way and helped him reach his dreams of being an NBA star. You know, what's interesting is D.C. as a market, as a city has had a long history of producing great players with an incredible high school basketball situation. And we all around here are very familiar with the Catholic League, the WCAC, with DeMathas, you know, long run that started with Morgan Wooten. But, you know, the great players that came out of the district, Elgin Baylor and Dave Bing. And the list goes on and on. And I'm wondering, you know, when this started to become a PG County thing. I know a lot of the players that play in the Catholic League, and some of those schools are located in PG County,

and some of them like St. John's and Gonzaga are in the district themselves. But what was it where all of these players through, you know, say the 50s and the 60s and the 70s and even in the 80s, perhaps, were living inside the city, and now most of them are born and raised. in Prince George's County. Is there anything about that dynamic that's addressed in this documentary? Yeah, so they start off with a little bit of the history of the area. They do trace the, you know, the D.C. lineage all the way back to, you know, the founder of black basketball, they call him, who was kind of a disciple of James Naismith, right? So you're going all the way back in history to kind of understand why D.C. has such a thriving community. What they look at is really

socioeconomic factors. You know, you have the assassination of Martin Luther King and riots in D.C., which wind up pushing some African-Americans outside the city and just kind of changes where people are living and where people are raising their children. So that was part of it. They also touch on the crack epidemic and how, you know, for a player like Len Byest, who is a big-time player from the PG-County area, that kind of ruins his career. You know, it takes his life in a very tragic way right after he was drafted. But there is a response factor from that community, which is rather than, you know, getting, you know, cracking down on crime and in criminalizing all youth activity, they kind of have a supportive response with the community in terms of the, you know, putting together rec centers and having public parks for kids to play out.

That's sort of the response. And now you have this entire generation of kids who are basically Kevin's age who are looking at these community centers as Haven. And he describes kind of his entire life, just, you know, basically his school and basketball. basketball. He's sleeping at the community centers at times because it's just more convenient because he's there playing all day long. And there's other guys like Beasley, I believe he was on house arrest at one point. He's being taken in by a coach. And he has a similar situation. He's just saying, look, we just spent all day long at these gyms. There was really nothing else that we wanted to do. And so I think it just built on itself, right? I mean, you have a lot of

these guys who are obsessed with basketball, who are really good at basketball, who are competing with each other and feeling part of a community and just building it up gradually bit by bit. I mean, you can already see it spinning forward to the next generation. You've got a Markell Fultz, number one overall pick here recently, and then, of course, the pipeline continues from

there with even more recent players. So they do try to trace some of that backstory, some of that history. I mean, keep in mind, it's only a 50-minute documentary, a little bit less than an hour. So it's not don't compare it to the last dance, where they've got 10 hours and unlimited budget and unlimited access

I mean, this is a more focused project. What are the numbers currently? How, you know, what, how much does PG County dominate major D1 college basketball and then the NBA? Yeah, the numbers that they present in the movie, I believe, is like 30 NBA players in the last 20 years. And when you think about, you know, any given year, you only have 450 guys. That's a big number. Of any slice. and you've got a lot of guys, by the way, who are long-time pros, right?

You've got the Jeff Greens of the world. You've even got the Grant Brothers coming up. I mean, some of these guys who are sticking, not just having a couple coffee. Like, they're making real careers. And that, to me, was the most impressive part. Like, I live here in Los Angeles right now just, you know, because that's sort of the center of the NBA universe with LeBron and Kauai. And there's a pretty thriving youth basketball culture here, too.

And there's a lot of all-star-level players, James Hart and Russell Westbrook. But you kind of expect it from a city that's this big that always has good weather, you know, that had, you know, the Showtime Lakers influence going all the way back to the 80s. And I think, you know, even some of the people who, the executive producers of this film, like at Showtime, you know, they looked at PG County, which is like, how is this even possible? Like, you know, this is, you know, such a, it's not a huge community in terms of population, and yet they're just consistently producing NBA-level players,

also overseas professionals, and then, of course, hundreds of college athletes on a regular basis. And by the way, both for the men's game and the women's game. And this documentary doesn't focus on the women's game a ton. But they do have a couple of interviews in there briefly just to kind of point out that, you know, there's a lot of powerhouse programs and a lot of, you know, good athletes coming from there as well on the women's side. Ben Goliver from the Washington Post joining us. And I do want to talk some NBA with you, too, because you write a lot about the NBA in the draft. But, you know, there's, I'm excited to watch this because I think there is sort of a pride that those of us that are from here.

And I've always been sort of a part of the basketball thing. You know, I've coached, you know, sort of AAU and travel basketball on and off for the last 25 years. And I know the talent that's in this area. I know that the WCAC top to bottom, you know, Ben, without question is the best high school basketball conference. in America. There are basketball factory high schools that we know, you know, the O'Kills, etc. of the world, the IMGs. But in terms of a top-to-bottom conference, there's no conference that has the kind of coaching and the kind of talent that's come out of the WCA and D.C. over the years. And I'm wondering if they really, in this documentary, really dial in on the reasons. You know,

you mentioned and you wrote your story about the recreation centers and sort of, in many cases, sort of the physical environment that sort of has played out in PG County. But why PG County and not, you know, a county in L.A. or not a county in Philly or not New York or not, you know, Baltimore? Why D.C. and Y.P.G. County. Yeah, I mean, I do think that their basic explanation of that has to do with, you know, a rich basketball lineage, you know, obviously a predominantly African-American population moving to the area early on. And in some cases, having, you know, outside the Beltway, I understand it's one of the wealthiest African-American, you know, parts of the country in the world. And that helps,

too, obviously, having access to resources. But then also, so you have the population first. And then I think you also have the infrastructure and support. And then you also have some people who are really early in terms of understanding where the game was going from a commercial standpoint, Like in the 1990s, for example, Michael Jordan takes off the sneaker contracts start going up. And some of the coaches around that area, including Curtis Malone, who wound up getting himself into some pretty significant trouble, realized that, you know, this is a real business. And if you can get the sneaker companies behind you, you can get a contract with Adidas.

Now all of a sudden you can take your kids across the country, expose them to, you know, talent evaluators, but also expose them to top competition. You know, one of my favorite scenes from the entire documentary is an 11-year-old Kevin Durant playing for the Prince George Jaguars where he's got the exact same shooting format 11 that he's got, you know, today at 31. How tall was he?

He's winning. Oh, he was the tallest kid on the court, but not by maybe as much as you would think. But he hadn't really hit the gross per year. I don't think he was even six foot yet. But the same just like step in, move to his jumper is there. They've got Beasley, you know, feeding him the basketball off of all.

offensive rebounds. I mean, it's just really remarkable footage. And it just shows that, I mean, this was these guys' entire life. And I think that's a big part of it, too, is, you know, they use that phrase in the water. It's just like something special about the area. But I think ultimately, like, not every community loves basketball to the same degree. And it's clear that these guys, their whole life revolves around it. There was really nothing else for them to do. And, you know, I think that lack of distractions, that focus on basketball, having some pioneers, in other words, understanding that the travel side of it was going to be very important, you know, just to get you on the showcase situations with AAU tournaments and on into college was really big.

And I think all those things add up to create, you know, a great basketball community. But they also, you know, give a lot of credit to Damasathic as well. You know, Victor Oladipo, for example, you know, speaks about the importance of that program. And, you know, they also trace that high school back to this idea that Morgan Wooten was completely comfortable with white players and black players, you know, at a very early age. And again, that could be another thing that winds up holding some communities back. It's just segregation or racism or not being willing to, you know, look to the future. And I think, you know, those kinds of developments help a lot.

How much of this documentary is about Durant and his coming up through PG County? I would say, you know, maybe a little bit less than a half. I mean, he's a central figure because he represents a lot of their major themes, and he's obviously by far the biggest name. You know, he's funny, he's kind of a reluctant interview. You know, you watch these Michael Jordan documentaries, and the guy's got a cigar and scotch, and he's just going off. It's like, whatever, you know, ask me any question. I'll rip Isaiah Thomas for 10 minutes, and, you know, it's just like must-see TV. And that's not really Durant's on-camera personality ever.

You know, he's just kind of, you know, more to the shy side, more to the humble side. he's not a real big, you know, pound his chest and tell you how great he is type of player. So I wouldn't say that his presence dominates this movie or overwhelms this movie. And I think he actually told me one of his favorite parts was getting to see Nolan Smith and Michael Beasley talk about how they became brothers, kind of both adopted by Curtis Malone and spending a lot of time together as high school talents, just challenging each other and trying to get, you know, that number one spot on the local rankings. So it's not a Durant-centric piece by any means. And they trace other history, whether it's the Len Byest story,

and some of the other older players, Steve Francis makes an appearance as well. So I think if you're expecting a biography, that's not what it is, but you are going to get a good amount of, you know, Durant's backstory. And for me, like, I'm someone who's followed his career pretty carefully throughout the NBA, and I understood how important to see Pleasant Rec Center was to him. And I knew that he had donated the Durant Center, you know, the $13 million college prep facility. Like I knew this was a part of his story, but I definitely learned a lot. And that youth footage that I mentioned really pops off the screen.

And just even hearing him talk about some of the ills in the community when he was first coming up. He described, you know, kind of drug-addicted zombies walking the streets and making things challenging and a little bit scary for them as kids and making them want to think, well, you know, this cracking doesn't seem so great. we want to go play basketball. Let's go find something else to do with our time. I mean, those kinds of, you know, fork in the road moments that I think we can kind of all relate to in terms of making good decisions versus bad decisions. You can kind of, you know, see a player like him and other players of his generation, you know, making those types of decisions.

You know, it's interesting. You live in Southern California, and, you know, you live in, for all intents and purposes, an NBA town. I mean, a town that absolutely loves the NBA and loves the Lakers and to the Clippers, much less to a certain extent. By the way, Ben, I was saying today on my radio show or yesterday, I really wish we were gearing up for Lakers-Clippers Western Conference Finals right now because I was looking so much forward to that, so forward to that. And I don't know if we're going to get a chance to get it. But I actually want to get to some NBA stuff with you in a moment.

But what's interesting about D.C. is that it's been this incredible high school basketball town for so long. I mean, you know, so long. And yet, you know, the NBA franchise is insignificant on the landscape here, you know, compared to obviously the Redskins. And the two college programs, you know, Maryland and Georgetown have been much more, you know, had a much bigger and more passionate following over the years than the NBA team. It's weird the way it's sort of evolved here, don't you think?

Yeah, you know, it's funny. I asked Duran about that, too, in my piece at the very end, it's like the natural way for this to come full circle is for him to eventually go home and kind of, you know, boost the wizards up a little bit, right? And he said at this point, and even during his last pregnancy, he never really considered it. I think that says a lot, right? Because clearly the tug of home for him is really strong.

I mean, not only is he doing this project with Showtime, he's got another show coming out with Apple. I think they're actually filming in Richmond, Virginia, but it's about the Prince George's County area as well. So, cool, this thing is always on the front of his mind, and yet he's never really giving the wizard a full look in free agency or potentially for a homecoming. It always struck me as a little bit curious on that.

And I think that could be a situation where someone needs to kind of step up and do it, right? I mean, you know, ultimately, like LeBron left Cleveland, and if Cleveland was going to win a title, the only way that was happening is if LeBron went back there and did it for him, right? I mean, they'd still be floundering in 12th place in the Eastern Conference if he never went back to get them that title in 2016. And so I'm not sure that's a burden that Durant sees for himself, but I do think ultimately like that's one way or one path forward for the Wizards would be for one of these products from D.C. to kind of just put the franchise on his back and to go forward from there. It's tricky, though.

I mean, there's a lot of factors that go into winning in the NBA. You know, market size matters, you know. And I think that that's probably held them back at times when it comes to a free agency, you know, even things like weather and taxes, you know, wind up impacting some of these guys' decisions, and that can work against you too. But, no, I think, you know, D.C.'s overall, Hoops Community, we're seeing at time and again, I mean, there was a great documentary a few years ago about Alan Iverson that touched on his time at Georgetown. You know, Patrick Ewing shows up in the last dance, you know, wearing the Georgetown polo shirt

and talking about their battles going all the way back to the 80s. And that's one other cool thing you'll probably love from this documentary, by the way, is they've got footage from Krimadul Jabar and Power Memorial High School going down to play against the D.C. team all the way back when Kremma B. Jabar was still Lou Al-Sinder in the high school days. And, you know, Kareem went home with an L, as they put it in the movie. He wound up getting beaten. I think that's another example of how long that lineage is.

Well, that's one of the famous high school games. in history, it came in the mid-60s, James Brown. You know, the CBS James Brown was on that Demath, the team that Morgan Wooten coach that ended L. Cinder's Power Memorial winning streak back then, a famous game. And yeah, it was, you know, it's funny as you were talking about Durant and coming back, for whatever reason, and I'm sure there's a number of them. And you hit on some of the reasons why D.C. isn't necessarily a destination for free agents to begin with. I don't think it's market size.

I think it's, you know, there's no recent tradition. There's, you know, there's the weather issue. There's the taxes issue. At the same time, D.C. is a phenomenal place to live in, to raise a family in. And I've always wondered why it hasn't been more of a destination. But Durant in 2016 didn't even give Ernie Grunfeld and Ted Leonsis a meeting. I mean, it was never even a possibility of him coming back. And I don't know the reasons why he wouldn't have at least granted some sort of meeting

so that people back here got the sense that he was at least considering it. But maybe he was just true to himself. He was never considering it. Do we know why? Yeah, I'm not sure he was seriously considering it. I think part of it might have been he didn't want to give people's hopes up falsely. I know he felt a lot of pressure from local voices saying, come back, come back, come back.

And it didn't sound in talking to him this week that that was really a serious consideration. I mean, at that point of his career, we have to remember, he was feeling an inordinate amount of pressure to win a first title, right? Because he'd only made the finals once. He had lost to LeBron when he was younger. He hadn't been able to get back. There was all sorts of talks as Oklahoma City have enough to get over the top. And also, he was just tired of being viewed as, you know, the number two guys.

He wanted to surpass LeBron. He wanted to be the king of the NBA. He thought a title would get him there. And so he ultimately made the decision to join the team. I gave him the best shot to win and get over that hump. And that was Golden State. I mean, there were other major factors. I think the Silicon Valley financial side was huge for them.

You know, at that point, he had only played in Oklahoma City, one of the NBA's smallest markets. And it hadn't really held him back. I mean, he had a massive Nike contract and some other big-time endorsements. But the level of wealth and the ability to kind of spread. his wings in the Bay Area was significant and definitely a, you know, a big part of their pitch there from the Warriors as well. So I think ultimately he was trying to, you know, improve his brand, quote unquote, by becoming a winner number one, which he was able to do. And then also just, you know, putting himself in kind of, you know, a major, major financial center in the

country. And I am really of the world because you look at a lot of the companies that the Warriors are sponsored by, you know, sometimes they're Chinese. companies, Asian companies. And that's just a different degree of wealth, I think, than a lot of other teams are able to offer players. I didn't want the conversation to turn towards Durant, but I do have a question for you as somebody who's covered the NBA. You know, there's been, I think, a clear and obvious, there's been a criticism of Durant that I think to me is justifiable. And that has been, you know, publicly he's been very sensitive to criticism. over the years. And I'm trying to think of the more recent example. I think there was a Bay Area

reporter that had discussed some of the conversations he had with Durant. And one of the reasons he left is he always felt Steph Curry was sort of favored by the media and the fans over him. I think that was the most recent one. And I'm roughly remembering it. But do you think that he's such a unique player and such a great player, but do you think that he's such a unique player and such a great player, But do you think that that's impacted the way people view him in terms of consumers and fans? Absolutely. And it frustrates me to no end. You know, I think that last year before the Achilles' tear, he was the best player in the sport.

You know, I mean, he's putting up 50 points against the Los Angeles Clippers, doing it so easily getting whatever shot that he wants in a great rhythm. He's a completely dominant offensive player and so smooth, completely in control. control. But the conversation about Kevin Duran is hardly ever about his basketball game on the national level. And it just kills me. It's always about, oh, he said this on Twitter. He tweeted this. Oh, you know, he's a little bit aloof from his teammates. It's all this personality and off-court stuff. And you look at him, I mean, he's never been in trouble with the law. Right. Right. Never had any serious issue. He was always considered the Golden Child in Oklahoma City until he

left, right? He gets to Golden State, and you can argue that first title team, 2017. team, you could argue that's the greatest team in NBA history, right? But everybody kind of forgot about that, and I think they wound up resenting Durant for kind of building this unfair super team. They kind of wound up blaming him for that. And that he's right. I mean, he was never embraced the same way in the Bay Area like Steph Curry, even though I thought he was a better and more important player on those teams and those guys played

together. I give Steph Curry a lot of credit for seating center stage and, you know, allowing Durant to really flourish there. I mean, it's a great teammate. It's great leadership. by Steph Curry. And I think ultimately, like, he was there first, so it was his team in the fan's eyes.

And that left Durant kind of wondering, hey, where do I fit in? If I'm the best player in the world, but I'm not the most beloved guy in my team, that's kind of a naturally, a weird dynamic that you really don't ever see in the NBA, right? So, you know, all of these factors, you know, kind of wound up consuming the story.

And it was just so unfortunate because he had a real chance to change all of that in the finals, right? If he comes back, he doesn't get hurt. he leads the Warriors to a comeback in that final series over Toronto, and they win. I think he winds up being sort of the conquering hero. Everybody crowned him as the best player in the world, which he had been waiting for. And then if he wants to leave in free agency after winning three straight titles and potentially three finals MVP,

I think there's a lot less resentment. But the problem was he got injured. He couldn't control that. He made a valiant effort to come back onto the court, and then people kind of wound up holding that against them. And when he leaves for Brooklyn, it's like, well, why are you going to be able to, to go join that team. You know, they're not as prepared to win as Golden State was. You know, why are you leaving?

And it wound up getting kind of spun negatively against him again. Now, I'll just be honest. I didn't personally love that next pick because I just wonder about his chemistry and how it's going to work with Kyrie Irving. And that organization, I mean, they've already fired the coach and the new ownership group. So I have my share of questions with that team. But I just think, unfortunately, the story about Kevin Durant has gotten,

away from basketball. And, you know, it's, I think to me, he's one of those guys who are going to look back in 10 years, 20 years, and say, man, the world took him for granted. This guy was unbelievable. There's never been a guy like him since. He was a huge trailblazer for those big wings with the, you know, with the ability to handle the ball and shoot the ball from the perimeter.

And, you know, he transformed the way the game was played. And we should remember him as that kind of a pillar of the league. And I think right now everybody, their basic opinion of him is, like, like you said, he's sensitive, he winds on Twitter, and he joined, you know, he had to team up to win his title. And to me, that's just really sad. Did you see the ESPN top 74 player list? I did. So one of the things that I was curious about, I was hoping that it wouldn't happen, and it hasn't happened, and hopefully it won't, is just to see Durant one spot below Curry, Curry at 13, Durant at 14.

In my personal opinion, Ben, is that they probably should be swapped. You know, I've seen Curry shut down. I've never seen Durant actually stopped. But regardless, I mean, they're right in the general area, I feel, where they should be. But that's the kind of thing that, based on his history and the way he's responded to things, you know, it wouldn't have been surprising to see some sort of tweet or some sort of remark about it. Right. I mean, I'm with you because first of all, I mean, Curry, his peak level was probably higher than Durant's peak level. I mean, that one magical season that Curry had was incredible. But I think people forget, I mean,

Duran barely missed a game for like eight straight seasons. You know, I mean, he was the most consistent score in the league. There was entire month every game he would score 25 plus points. That's so hard to do. And so I think if you look at the overall body of work from Kevin Duran, the consistency factor and the longevity factor, I would take his career over Curry's. And I also think this is just a tough time to be ranking Durant because he's been, you know, away from basketball since last June just because he's been injured and it's been easy to kind of forget about him. But to me, I think I would have had Durant higher than Curry.

There was a couple others on that list. I would have had Shaq over Kobe and a few other ones that you can kind of nipick here and there. But I agree. Like, I think ultimately he felt he had to leave Golden State because he didn't want those constant comparisons, right? Like, if you're at the top of your craft, you don't want to be compared to your teammate. That's just so divisive and just kind of a negative atmosphere.

And of course, I think he could have handled the whole thing better and probably done a better job from the press relations side. You know, he would probably admit that, too, I would expect. But, you know, you just don't want that to linger. You don't want that to be like the defining question for your entire career. Yeah, I mean, in talking about the list, because I literally spent yesterday on radio and on the podcast for an hour plus. but it sounds like you got into sort of looking at it and talking it about as well. The one thing that I would say about Durant, I think that Durant in some key moments, especially at Oklahoma City, you know, when they had a chance to close out the Warriors

and he went 10 for 31 from the floor, you know, when Westbrook was really in the finals series against Miami, in many ways more of the player that delivered than Durant did. that's the only thing that I would look back on and say you had a chance to take the Warriors out, you had a chance to not just join a frontrunner but have come from a frontrunner and he didn't play well. In that game at home in Oklahoma City

when they had a chance to close out Golden State, I think it was 10 for 31, if my memory serves me correctly, from the floor. But I still think he should have been in front of him. It's interesting that you would have had you would have had Shaq in front of Kobe. My biggest, I had a couple of beasts. First of all, Janice doesn't deserve to be 27 at this point.

If we want to talk about where he'll be in five, six, seven years, that's one thing. He just shouldn't have been 27. I just have always felt that for whatever reason, and it's not like it's been an egregious sort of underrated thing. I just think Elijah Juan is in the conversation for the greatest center of all time. and I know that that's not a majority opinion, and he gets a lot of due. I think he's a top 10 player. I think he should have been in the top 10 in front of Shaq and or Duncan, if not both of them. I would have had Duncan over both Shaq and Elijah one, but I love Elijah one.

It's so tricky because, to me, Elijah won sort of like the 11th guy, how do you squeeze him into the 10th? But I'm with you on Janice being overrated. I mean, I love Yonnet. He's probably my favorite current NBA player right now in terms of what he does. does, but it's premature there. I also thought a guy like Chris Paul, another guy sort of like Kevin Durant, whose narrative got away from him a little bit, was too low on this list. I think Chris Paul is going to wind up looking like, I mean, he had a nice, what, six, seven

year run there as the best point guard in the NBA, and, you know, he's all NBA, first team, all defense, first team basically every single year. I mean, that guy should have been a little bit higher. Going back to your thing real quick on Kevin Durant and, you know, coming up short for Oklahoma city. And those were the most frustrating moments, right, where you have the best, most talented player on the court and the ball's not his hand, or he's not going to take over control of the game. It happened actually at times during the Olympics in 2016. It would just drive me nuts. It's like, come on, Katie, what are you waiting for? Go out there and do it. And I do think that in key

moments of the 2017 finals for Golden State and the 2018 finals for Golden State, he really did that. I mean, he wanted the ball. He took over control. He's bad. banging the three-pointers right in LeBron's face to kind of end the series. He's staring down the crowd with that mean mug. And again, it's one of these things where those moments get forgotten on his behalf or his legacy because they just get attributed to sort of the Warriors' General of greatness. And, oh, it's this magical team that won all these games and, you know, at the dynasty and everything else.

And there was one guy who was driving a lot of that stuff, and it was Katie. And I just think history is going to forget that a little bit. I think in those situations, you're right. And, you know, and I have Scott Brooks on the show. show all the time and I've gotten to know him a little bit. And I've asked him a lot about the dynamic between Russ and and Durant. And, you know, there's no doubt that some of that could have just been, you know, a function or a result of a dysfunctional sort of dynamic, you know, in Oklahoma City. By the way, the other player that is, to me, criminally underrated

on this list, and no one likes him. But Isaiah Thomas is not the 31st best player of all time. Isaiah Thomas deserves to be much higher, much closer to 20 than 30, and he's 31 on this list. Oh, for sure. And I think that he's actually having kind of a nice moment here because of the last dance, because Jordan was so mean. Jordan was so mean to him that everyone's like, hey, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. Let's try to put Isaiah Thomas into a proper context. But I didn't realize, you know, going back, I think he made All-Star games his first 12 years in the league.

Isaiah Thomas did, and he had more assist, you know, at his peak than Magic had at his same time period there in the mid-80s, which is pretty wild to think about. And they're playing at the slowest pace in the league, and they're a defense-first team. So if he had been playing in a different style, and he was averaging some 2010, but if he's playing a different style, I mean, that could have easily been 25-13, you know? No, doubt. So, yeah, to me, Isaiah's got to be higher, too. Well, the other-

It did seem like they have... No, go ahead. No, go ahead. No, I was going to say it did seem like a little recent Cias on some of these. Like the younger guys were getting favor a little bit more than the older guys. No doubt. I don't have a problem with where Kauai is.

I think Kauai is a two-time NBA Finals MVP and one of the best three players on the planet, in my opinion. And I'm not sure that Golden State would have won with a healthy team last year with the way Toronto was playing with the way he was playing. But that's neither here nor there. I'm fine with Kauai, and he's going to climb that list here over the next few years. but here's something just to wrap up this conversation because I would doubt that you probably looked at something like this

because you're not from here. But, you know, Elvin Hayes, for long time Bullets, Wizards fans like me, whenever these lists come out, I always look to see where Wes Unseld and Elvin Hayes are on the list. I'm just old enough to remember when Washington had a legitimate professional basketball team and the bullets were good. great in the 1970s. Do you know that Elvin Hayes, who came in 44th on this list, is still to this day, 10th all time on the scoring list, and fourth all time on the rebounds list, which is really

an incredible number when you consider all, every player that's in front of them, they were all in the top 17, 18 on this top 74 list. He was 44th, and I'm not suggesting that he should have been much higher. He actually is one of these guys that was a true Iron Man. I think he's one of the best three to four power forwards in the history of the game. But his, to still in it today, you know, especially with the proliferation of scoring and three-point scoring, et cetera, to still be 10th on the scoring list and fourth on the all-time rebounds list is pretty impressive. That's funny, because I had to do with Post a few years ago on like the greatest rebounders of all time and I was blown away by his career rebounds total and just like his per game and annual

averages. What about him made him such a great rebounder? I mean, what was it, what was the skill set for him that put him above so many other guys? Well, the irony is he was much more of a self-absorbed offensive player. He was a difficult teammate. You know, Phil Sheenier and the people that played with him, they'll tell you the Biggie was not the easiest guy in the world to play with. He was a prolific offensive player. He could face and shoot the jump shot. He would back you down. He had a patented turnaround fadeaway bank shot.

He could get to the rim with a jump hook as a power forward. Defensively, he had great timing as a shot blocker. What it was is he was relentless. He was a relentless competitor. Ben, I don't know what his average per minutes per game were. but there were nights I remember where he played 47, 48 minutes. He didn't come out of the game. And he was long-armed, too.

He had long arms, and I would probably attribute it to, based on my memory, of him being an incredibly relentless, high-energy, long-armed player who was never off the floor, it seemed like. He never missed games either. I mean, he was a true, you know, I didn't look this up, but I'm going to bet you that the majority of his career, 80 plus games out of 82. Yeah, see, that's one thing that we're missing from the modern NBA is those types of guys, right? I mean, especially among the star-level players.

I mean, that's another lesson from the last dance, too, guys like, you know, Jordan, even Rodman was playing an unbelievable number of minutes in those final three-peat seasons and hardly ever missing any time. You know, in that documentary, they focused on Rodman. Another relentless high-energy rebounder, right, where they're saying, oh, he goes on this trip to Las Vegas, and he was away from the team, and it's like this huge thing. There's the only two games he missed all year. He played 80 games, you know. So it's funny how that kind of thing has just transitioned in the NBA.

It's kind of gone out of favor. But, no, I appreciate that history lesson because he was a little bit before my time. You know, I'm from Portland, Oregon originally, so they won their title in 77. Yeah. You know, right around the same time, Washington got its title. I have kind of a soft spot for that time. Yeah, me too. before I was really alive and kicking.

I just pulled up, you know, his career. He never played a season less than 80 games in 16 years. 80 games minimum was what he played. You know, by the way, speaking of the 77 Blazers, to me, that's the greatest what if. Walton came in at 48. I think those of us that watched him, and when you listen to the people that played with him

and were coaching at the time. If he had stayed healthy, you know, this list would have included him in no worse than the top five. He was that great. Well, it's funny, because a lot of the beat riders in Portland were beat riders for covering the Blazers back in his time. And there's always this debate among the younger fans.

Like, is it Damien Lillard or is it Clyde Drexler? And the older beat writer will say, no, no, no, no. There was Bill Walton, you know. That's a real answer for the best Trail Blazers player. and, you know, yeah, that 78 season where he gets hurt, I mean, the numbers and the records that they were rattling off before that time is just, it's mind-blowing to think of what that could have meant for, you know, the entire city, frankly. You know, Portland's kind of a small town. You have a little dynasty brewing there. If it sticks, who knows where it goes, right? Well, not to mention that they were incredibly well-coached, too. I mean, Ramsey was an incredible coach. You know, Walton's one of those things where I've got to tell, you know, people, and I'm not even talking about my son. who are big basketball fans. I'm talking about older people. No, just go back and watch some of, you know, the YouTube games. There's never been a player that's at that position that's made

everybody else better. He was essentially magic as a center, you know, in so many ways. Last thing, I've kept you too long, but you're watching the last dance, and I saw that you wrote about something that I spent a bunch of time talking about on Monday from last Sunday nights episodes. And that is the Pippin game where he refused to go in to the game in game three against the Knicks. I haven't read your story. I just saw it on Twitter. What was your overall sort of commentary on that? Yeah, I mean, I think just to boil it down, like no matter how you slice it, he quit, right? I mean, you can't forgive him for that decision with the entire season on the line.

in that moment to just sit down. It's basically unacceptable. And you hear from all of his teammates how heartbroken they were by that decision. My main takeaway from watching that scene, though, is just that a player would not be in that position in today's NBA for a couple different reasons. You know, first of all, Scotty Pittman was kind of held hostage by the Bulls because he had that long-term contract. Nobody forced him to sign it, but he did sign it.

So he doesn't really have any leverage. At that time, the coach was a more powerful figure within the organization. than coaches are today. And I just think if the same thing came to ahead in the playoffs, like in 2020, the superstar would demand the shot. So most coaches would give it to him. Even if they don't give him the shot, he's probably not going to sit down because you're going to have cameras and social

media and Twitter and everything else. There's going to be a lot of pressure for him to sort of just go along in that moment. But the real takeaway is after the game, you know, he's got some real recourse. The superstar level player does. he can either potentially go to management and be like, hey, it's me or the coach. He could demand a trade potentially, which I could easily see happening in the modern NBA, if a player feels snubbed by his coach.

And he would just be also, by the way, making about 10 times more in salary today than Scottie Pippen was making in the early 90s. So I just think that the power dynamics in the NBA have changed dramatically since that moment. And if a similar kind of head-to-head thing emerged, the player is not going to wind up losing in that moment where his reputation kind of gets tarnished and also losing in the aftermath where he's stuck on a team and he still has to answer to Phil and everything else. I mean, look, he's either going to get the shot or he gets to demand a trade. And by the way, we saw this in 2015, right?

I mean, LeBron James was in a very similar situation with David Blatt. David Blatt draws up the play to have LeBron inbound the ball for a final shot against the Bulls. LeBron in the huddle says, no, we're not doing that. He scratches the play, changes it so the ball can be imbounded to him. He shoots the three-pointer and they win. And after the game, he tells the media what he did. He throws this coach under the bus and less than a year later, David Blatt is fired, right? So it's just a completely different sport than what Scottie Pippen was dealing with in the 90s.

Yeah, really good comparison. You know, the thing that I thought of was, what if Koo Coach misses the shot? Like, I would love to know what would have happened in overtime. Would Scotty have gone back into the game in overtime? You know, what kind of incredible, uncomfortable situation would there have been on the bench when Cooke coach and the five players that were on the floor, including Pete Myers, walked back over to the bench and Pippin sitting there sulking? You know, would Pippin have gotten up and, you know, said to Phil, I told you.

You know, I mean, think about, you know, the odds of Cooke coach making that shot with a second and a half on the inbounds, it's one in ten. you know, so the odds favored that that game was going to overtime. Oh, 100%. I mean, that's the forgotten part about that is, okay, you wanted to drop your play. It wasn't that great of a play. No, it wasn't. A really tough shot.

Right. The guy who wasn't a very efficient shooter at that point of his career, you know, so it's kind of funny. But, yeah, I wonder would Scotty have been able to talk him into, you know, prove coach wrong, you know, go show him that you're the guy in overtime. Like, could you try to motivate him that way? or would Phil have said, oh, you want to quit on the last play? Well, fine, stay on the bench for overtime, right?

I mean, in that heated, you know, high-pressure intensity moment, you know, guys, composure definitely could have got away from them on both sides. I just have no idea how that would have played out. I was glad to hear that Pippen apologized to his teammates. I think that was appropriate. It was interesting to hear that he doesn't really regret it, though. He's like, yeah, probably did the same thing again. Yeah.

And I think that just speaks to how he felt taking. it for granted the whole way, you know, underpaid, overlooked, you know, kind of his entire career, always in Jordan's shadow. And I think that's another, you know, final thought on the Pippin experiences. The modern superstar would never be able to subjugate himself as the number two guy for his entire prime in the NBA. We just don't see it, right? There are different moments where, like, an Anthony Davis will team up with a LeBron, you know, for a certain segment of his career, but to have a true wingman and have that be your definition for like eight or nine straight years, completely, you know, riding Jordan's coattails. I just think that, you know,

guys are so concerned with their own image and their own targeting ability. Yeah, right. At some point, you just get tired of it. And I think that happens, you know, pretty regularly. And it's kind of a credit to Pips. I mean, you know, we're kind of bashing him for his low moment. And I understand that. But I came out with a lot of respect to a guy who was able to do that. I totally agree with that. Not to mention that he was likable. He, he was well-liked and well-respected by his teammates and comfortable there, clearly, except with Krause. You know, I wouldn't put Clay Thompson into that conversation of, like, elite superstar in his own, but certainly he's had opportunities if he wanted to.

It's great recognition and great self-awareness in a young person to recognize that they're better off being the number two. it's a compliment. You know, it doesn't make them any less competitive or any less ambitious. It makes them interest, sort of self-aware, and by the way, the result is more winning, you know, when all of a sudden done. For sure. And I think guys get away from that in the modern era. And we just tell with Pippin, I mean, after he left the Bulls and he's trying to be the man, it didn't go great for him. I mean, the Houston experience was not great.

Yeah. By the way, last thought, and I appreciate it. the time. I still think, and tell me what you think. I still think through eight episodes, the most incredible thing about this documentary. And I, you know, I remember all of those games in a lot of the situations, but a lot of it's been revealing too. I still cannot believe, and I had Wilbon on the other day, and we talked about this for 20 minutes. I still can't believe that Jerry Reinsdorf deferred to this, you know, Jerry Krause. You had six titles in eight years, and it could have kept going.

On what planet do you break up a dynasty like that because of one person's insecurity? It's crazy. No, it's absolutely insane. There's no doubt. And, you know, for a long time, it did seem like he was very masterfully using Krause as like a human shield, right? Where he just lets all the players and Phil Jackson hate Kraus,

and then meanwhile, he just kind of like counts his money and count his championship rings, right? but towards the end, I mean, he had to do a better job as a leader of that organization of keeping things together, period. You know, and I understand he went out and kind of courted Phil Jackson on that one-year contract. He goes out to Montana to get that done. Right.

Why is that a one-year contract? If you're flying a Montana to bring Phil Jackson back, bring him back for a while, right? I mean, what are you thinking here? It's just amazing that they squandered that. I actually think it says a lot about Jordan, frankly, that he was willing to, you know, spend his entire NBA career with those guys until the, wizard's chapter, obviously. But I think another comparison would be if a modern superstar came up and didn't feel like they had total commitment from ownership, they'd be out, you know, at the first

possible opportunity. And I think it's a credit to Jordan that they won six titles how they did. But yeah, there's no question. They left, you know, lots of winning on the table and lots of money on the table, too, which is the part that's so confounded to me. You would think at the very least the owner would want to keep cashing check. Yeah, I mean, it's just, it's clearly a different air, I mean, Jordan didn't have a say in Doug Collins. I mean, that would never happen today. I mean, you know, that his, that the coach that he loves gets fired without him even having any input on it. It's been great to watch. I mean, it's been, first of all, it's been so well done everything about it. I'm looking forward to Sunday night as well, and I'm looking forward

to watching tonight. I mean, we don't have games, which sucks, but we've had a lot of documentaries Is the NBA going to resume here at any point in the near future or not? I think we've still got a little ways to go. I mean, they don't want to give it up. I think the big takeaway from this week is when Charles Berkeley and Shaquille O'Neal kind of come out and say, hey, guys, just cancel the season. And then you hear the superstars come out and say, we have a united front. We still want to play.

And then you hear the Board of Governors call and Adam Silver's, you know, trying to strike an optimistic tone about coming back and, hey, guys, just give it two to four weeks. I think what I took away from that is that they want to make this decision themselves. They don't want to be pressured into a canceled decision by outside media voices or by fan sentiment or anything else. They want to kind of control their own destiny, and you understand why. I mean, there's billions of dollars at stake here if they can salvage a playoffs for television. I guess, you know, I just look around the country and the death toll is still very high.

The testing situation hasn't really been resolved, you know, ideally, and there's no vaccine. And so to me, those are really tough indicators for any sports league to kind of get passed. But they're not going to give up. They're trying hard, and there's a lot of people who care a lot about the sport who are trying to bring it back. And we just kind of have to see how it plays out. I guess I'm a little bit more pessimistic than the average person, probably, when it comes to, are they going to be able to pull it off? But I know there's a lot of people within the NBA who really want to have a playoff this summer,

even if it's delayed a couple months, whatever it takes, they want to bring something back. It's too bad. I mean, we missed what would have been an interesting NCAA tournament, and Lakers Clippers in the West, and then one of those two teams against the Bucks maybe in the finals would have been awesome this year. Ben, thank you so much. That was great.

I really appreciate it. Well, thanks for having me, and best luck with everything, and please, you know, stay safe, you and your family and everyone else, all your listeners too. You do the same. At Ben Goliver on Twitter, follow him, and really good story in the post about the documentary tonight. One last thing before we run for the day and the weekend.

Did you see this James Harrison story? James Harrison told Barstool Sports Going Deep podcast that a hit that he had on Muhammad Massacquay back in 2010, a Cleveland Browns receiver that knocked him out. He said that Mike Tomlin after that game handed me an envelope after that hit. I'm not going to say what, but he handed him. me an envelope after that closed quote. Now, most people took that after hearing about that yesterday as, well, that's a bounty gate payoff. You know, you knocked the receiver out. Here's some cash. Now, interestingly, Harrison was never fined for the, was never penalized for the play during the game.

He ended up being fined $75,000. It was reduced later on to $50,000. But this started, in the last 24, well, maybe the last 12 to 18 hours, a stir, you know, people saying, look, you know, he's essentially admitting that the Steelers and Mike Tomlin, they were doing the same thing the Saints were doing in 2009 with Greg Williams, Sean Payton, etc. They were paying guys for knockout hits. You know, it's another bounty gate. And the Steelers responded yesterday, Art Rooney II said, quote, I'm very certain nothing like this ever happened. I have no idea why James would make a comment like this, but there's simply no basis for believing anything like this. Closed, quote. One of Harrison's advisors immediately told the Pittsburgh Tribune review last night that, quote, it never happened. Absolutely not. Never happened. I would have known it. It didn't happen. James and I are still together, we're really close during our 18 years together, he would have said something to me along the way, closed quote. So now, after all of the reaction and Pittsburgh should be investigated,

etc., Harrison took to Instagram early today and said about Tomlin. He said, quote, while y'all really comparing what I said to Bountygate, Mike T has, and in capital, letters never paid me for hurting someone or trying to hurt someone or put a bounty on anybody exclamation point. If you knew the full story of what happened back then, you'd know that BS fine for a legal play wasn't even penalized during the game, close quote. Harrison went on to say that today on Instagram that basically he took issue with the NFL at the time because the NFL apparently was selling photos of that particular hit and profiting from it after his fine. He said, quote, when the league had to start pretending like they cared about player safety,

they took all those things down off their website, and they started fining guys ridiculous amounts for the same plays they used to profit off of. Everybody knew it, even these same media people and all the fans that were sending money to me and the team to cover the fine. Again, at no time did Mike T. Mike Tomlin ever suggest anybody hurt anybody or that they'd be rewarded for anything like that, closed quote. Okay, that's fine. Then what was in the envelope? He doesn't address that. I mean, what was in the envelope? He says it was the Giest thing Mike Tomlin ever did. He handed me an envelope after that hit. I'm not going to say what, but he handed me an envelope after that. What was it? A nice little note saying, Hey, that was a really good hit. Thank you very much.

Usually that's a card. Sometimes it's also in an envelope. Anyway, I would expect that there's going to be more on this as we move forward. All right, that's it for the day. Have a great weekend. Certainly back on Monday to talk a little bit about the last dance. Try to get Cooley on next week. Tommy will be back.

Stay safe. Stay healthy.