The Kevin Sheehan Show - Heinicke Hope

Episode Date: October 20, 2022

Kevin and Thom today with a menu of excellence which includes Taylor Heinicke injecting hope into what seemed like a lost season. Thom's take on the Irsay comments is part of the show. Kevin on the Wizards season-opening win too. The boys talked Jack Kerouac, bounced checks, small font sizes, the Wizards season-opening win and Kevin had a Thursday Night NFL "Smell Test" pick.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Cheyenne Show. Here's Kevin. Tommy's here. I am here. We've got a lot to get to today on the show,

including all of the Jim Mersey stuff, which happened after our Tuesday show. Tommy's written about it in the column that's out today. He sent it to me right before the show. He sent it to me via email and a font size that was font size. eyes one and a half. And he said, did you read my column? And I said, uh, no, let me look it up.

And I pulled it up. And whatever you sent to me was literally for somebody with brand new eyes to read. Oh, come on. Oh, come on yourself. How old you are sometimes. I'm going to send a picture out of this then. I'm going to, I'm going to take a picture of what you sent me. Now, you've updated it.

You sent me a bigger picture. But the font size, it may not have been one and a half, but it was like three. Three or four. Please. I had no idea that your eyes were so bad. It's blurry. Can't even read it. I can read it for crying out.

No, you can't. You can't read that. Yes, I can. Oh, you've had so many eye different things. You can't read this. This is way too small. You didn't mean to send it to me this way, but you sent it to me this way. It was just a...

Oh, here's a bigger issue. What? Here's a bigger issue. What? I sent it to you last night. You didn't open it until we got on the phone. Right. That's a bigger issue.

It's a good thing I didn't open it last night. I would have had a headache and wouldn't have been able to go to sleep. I mean, no, it's not a bigger issue. I have a radio show that I do in the morning. It's an absolutely bigger issue. And I would say to you, you know what? Let me get down to it. You can't do your radio show really well without reading my column first.

How's that? Okay, well, you did send it at 920 at night. You know that sometimes at 9.20 a night, I have, not that I've gone to sleep, although that's happened a bunch, but I have checked out from looking at email or social media. I'm usually watching games or spending time with my family. I don't do what you do, which you just sit there with your eyes, you know, right next to your phone reading everything. But per usual, let me just give you a compliment. It was a very good Tommy column, an excellent column. And by the way, very informative about something or something that I had no idea.

A small thing. Not a big thing. It's not a big thing, but I thought it was an interesting thing. It's a little thing. But at the very beginning of the column, because I've just gotten through the beginning of it, I'm kidding. You said that Jim Mersey was the guy who outbid, the guy that he outbid for Jack Carrowax on the road, which he paid $2.4 million for. he outbid Ted Leonces for that. I didn't know that.

Yes. That actually got us into a conversation about Jack Kerouac's, you know, sort of where he was from or where his family was from. He's French Canadian. He grew up in the U.S., but his parents were French Canadian. So anyway, whatever. Your column's excellent. We can move on. I'll certainly, if I remember, I'll tweet out the original email and see if you,

how many people can actually read the, uh, what you sent to me. Um, so, uh, it's tough getting old, isn't it, buddy? You know, it's funny? My vision's getting better as I get older. Of course. It's turning around the, of course it is. No, it's turning around the other way. I don't use my glasses now to read. I used to use my glasses to read. Now I can't read with my glasses on. I still need my glasses for distance, but I don't need them for reading anymore. That, five years ago, I needed my glasses for reading. Now I don't. That happens.

Wow. Yeah, wow. What's that cereal you like? Magic spoon. Maybe that's the reason. Maybe it's a side effect on the magic spoon. Could be. Improved vision.

So I watched the Wizards last night before we get to the big stuff of the day. The Wizards won their opener against Indiana. They did a near Wizards thing. They had an 11-point lead with a minute 30 to go, and literally 60 seconds later, Indiana had the ball with a chance to hit a three to tie. They don't, and they didn't last year, they don't handle pressure well. Let me make a couple of coaching recommendations. Do you mind?

May I? Go right ahead. When you're trying to beat pressure, you know, beat it with passes over the top of the pressure. Don't throw the ball into the corner. When you cross half court against pressure, don't. Don't pick up your dribble in the corners when you cross half court, Bradley Beale. You should know better than that. That is a trap area.

There are areas in which when you are facing a pressure defense that wants to trap the ball, there are areas of the court that are more advantageous for the defense to trap. And it seems like the wizards don't know what those areas are. The ball needs to stay in the middle of the floor. And when you're facing full court pressure, throw over the top. it with the pass and stop picking up your dribble against trapping pressure, especially in those trap areas. I'm done with that. Kyle Kuzma is really good. He was really good last year. And, you know, I think Wizards fans think that he's the third best player. I would suggest to you

that he might be their second best player. Bradley Beale looked good last night. You know, a couple of turnovers here and there that are frustrating. You know, he can play better, but it'll be a process. Porzingis, Tommy, the guy that can't play a full season, apparently rolled his ankle during player introductions. Now, he played, and I thought he looked pretty good, but apparently he wasn't 100%. The interesting thing to me is that Dilan Wright finished the game as their point guard versus Monty Morris, who started the game. And I wonder if that will be a trend. Dilan Wright can actually really guard, and it's played in a lot of big games before. Had a terrible call go against him. and I thought West Jr. was right to challenge it,

and they didn't overturn it. Daniel Gafford is, he is really a productive player and a talent. Tommy Shepard told me the other day, he's the player that they expect to take another massive jump. What's interesting about Gafford, like last night, Tommy, in 16 minutes, 12 rebounds, 7 assists, a block shot. That's basically what he does every night in 16 to 20 minutes, is like 14, 10, and two block shots.

He's really, really underrated and athletic, and that was a really good trade by them. But anyway, Indiana stinks, but the Wizards won their opener, and that's it. I thought Will Barton played well too. That's it. Let me tell you something.

538 sports did a story that calls this time in the NBA the age of parity, in the sense that no group. of teams have had a, no larger group of teams in recent memory have had a better chance that actually win an NBA title than this era we're going through right now. There's no particular dominant team, you know? Yeah. And they mentioned 16 teams with at least a sliver of a positive chance to win an NBA title.

There's nine teams that have a negative chance. The Wizards are one of those nine negative teams. So they missed the bird magic era, they missed the Jordan era, they missed the Kobe Shaq era, they missed the Tim Duncan era, they missed the LeBron era, and now they're going to miss a parody era as well. The parody era, the parody era of the last seven years, one team winning five times, or four times. No, right now, this year. Oh, this year they're predicting the beginning of the parody era. Yes. Because we have not been in a parody era.

We've never been in a parody era in the NBA. So this is that dude from 538, Nate Silver or whatever? Yeah. Yeah, okay. It's sports outfit. Yeah. I would say that there's still basically like three teams, four teams max, that can win the NBA championship this year.

I would say Golden State. the Clippers, the Celtics, in terms of winning it all. I don't know, maybe they're... No, not winning the championship. There are probably four or five teams potentially, you know, capable of getting their six teams, but I wouldn't use... If you look at the tight face closer, I think you could probably see more. That's funny, but I really can't, and I wouldn't...

No, I would say, that there is, the east is deeper than it's been in a long, long time. I mean, the east is stronger than the west top to bottom. But I still think that ultimately, Tommy, it's been proven that if you don't have a legitimate, you know, debatable top five player on your team, you can't win the NBA championship. You can win series. You can even perhaps get to the finals. You know, Phoenix did two years ago. I would say that Jimmy Butler at the time that the Miami Heat got there in the bubble, you know, in 2020, was playing like a top five player. But, you know, again, I've said this many times. You have to go back to 2004, the 2004 Pistons, were the last

team to win the NBA title without a legitimate top five player on their team, an elite superstar player. So if 538 sports is saying, you know, parity, I don't know how many teams that means. I mean, you said 16 teams didn't have negative chances. Right. I mean, some of them had a minuscule chance. Whatever parity means, if it means more than three or four teams, okay, but it's not the NFL, it's not the NHL, it's not Major League Baseball. It's still the NBA.

But it's different than the NBA of past. Okay. Where there are two teams. I would say right now, Boston, Golden State, the Clippers, the Nuggets. I mean, I hesitate to throw anybody out in the east, anybody else out in the east, because I really think Boston's great. So that would be my list of where the championship team will come from this year. Short list.

Typical short list. But then again, maybe a little bit longer, maybe not typical, because there have been some years that it was basically whatever team LeBron was on and the Warriors. Like those were the two teams pretty much that could win the title and nobody else could. So from that standpoint, yes, there's probably a little bit more parity. Okay. Can I just do one thing real quickly here at the top? I want to just give out a smell test pick for tonight so I don't forget. I like New Orleans plus three by the half point against Arizona tonight on the road in Thursday night football.

A lot of public action on Arizona, a lot of sharp action on the Saints. The Saints have actually played pretty well with Andy Dalton, more so than with James Winston. Their last three games were all winnable. They only won one of them, but they had Cincinnati on the ropes. They had a chance against the Vikings in London. And Dalton, you know, Dalton's a decent guy, a decent player. And I don't know whether or not they really are excited whenever James, James gets back. I've always liked James, but clearly it's not going to work.

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a winning one, bet anything anytime anywhere with my bookie. So, I wanted to bring up the 50-50 raffle story. You saw this. You tweeted about it. Yes. Yes, it's the ultimate. I mean, it is the ultimate zero days without an accident story, in a way. In a way, but not as serious as other accidents in the past.

I mean, no, but certainly speaks to the incompetence of an organization. It certainly speaks to, man, do they not do the little things well? They constantly make unforced errors. Like this is a total unforced error, and they're great at unforced errors. For those of you that don't know what we're talking about, NFL teams, lots of sports teams, will offer, if you've been to games, will offer like 50-50 raffle opportunities, you know, buy five raffle tickets for 10 bucks or 10 tickets for 25, whatever it is.

And, you know, half of that raffle money goes to a charitable group, which in this case is the, you know, I think it's the Washington Commanders charity. And then half of it goes to the winner, who, you know, whoever gets, pulled in the entrance from the raffle. And so what happened yesterday is that this guy who actually, I think the root of finding out about this story was that he called in to our radio station, the team 980, to Chris Russell and Pete Medhurst's show. And he said, I was the raffle winner from week one for the home game against Jacksonville

on September 11th. And the check that they wrote me for $14,822, which would have been 50% of the take, which means it was $29,644 was the total handle on the 50-50 raffle. I'll get to that in a moment. But the check bounced. It bounced. So, of course, this guy made a big deal out of it.

Now, the team has subsequently, I guess, direct deposited the $14,822 into his account. But this blew up like, oh my God, is the teams they can't even pay the raffle winners with money that wasn't even theirs to begin with, that they collected from a bunch

of ticket holders at the game. So go ahead. I'll let you swing first on this. Well, the only thing I pointed out on Twitter was, I remember when the Redskins played their opener up at Lincoln Financial Field a few

years ago when Case Keenham was the quarterback. And the 50-50 raffle at Lincoln Financial Field for that opening day was $180,000. Was that the payout or the gross amount? No, that was the gross amount. So $360,000. No, no, no, no. $180,000, you got $90,000 if you want. Oh, that's what I'm asking.

Okay, so the gross amount was $180,000, and the take for the winner was $90,000. Yeah. Right. Right. That was the take up in Philly. Now, this game, this was the opening game for the commanders. The stadium was packed, remember? It was packed.

And the best they could do was $28,000. Jesus. Yeah. I mean, that's embarrassing. I mean, that's like a national, that's like a national 50-50 take in, in all. on a Friday night for crying out loud. I mean, it's another London Flector moment for the organization. Look, the team said that it was a bank error.

We've reached out to the bank to determine what happened and to ensure it doesn't happen again. I don't know what the reason for it was. I will tell you this. Even though I do believe that they have, they do have some issues with liquidity in the, franchise because they've been so poor on all the other revenue streams that aren't media revenue. I mean, it wouldn't surprise me. I'm not reporting this. I know I've mentioned it before.

It would not surprise me if part of what took them so long to get the Terry McLaurin contract extension was once that deal is signed, you have to put the guaranteed money into escrow. That's a lot of money that they have to basically put into escrow. And that waiting a month or two, if they felt pretty confident they could get a deal done with Terry, meant that they could hold on to that cash a little bit longer. However, they're not in a position where they can't afford a check for $14,000, $822. I think maybe they have like a separate account for kind of this stuff. And somebody just forgot to fund the account recently.

And so the check bounced. whatever the reason was, I don't think it's that they didn't have the money at the time or they're trying to keep it for a little bit longer. And they're slow rolling the guy on the raffle payout. I don't think it's that. It's just not enough money for that to happen. But it doesn't matter because these are the things, the little things, that if you don't get the little things right in an organization, how are you going to get the big things right? We've talked about this forever. They get all the little things wrong.

They are so many unforced errors on their part. And for this organization, it's embarrassing. What really is the story here is what you said. And that is that on opening day, September 11th, where they had over 50,000 fans, I think, or maybe it was in the 40s, but paid attendance. No, no. I think attendance was over 50.

It was 51 paid. I think, you know, the estimates were maybe it was in the mid to high 40s for real. But whatever. is that all they could generate through this 50-50 raffle was $29,900, $29,744 worth of revenue. Yeah. I mean. I mean, that's embarrassing. Yeah.

That's just another statement, you know? I mean, just another statement. And there are so many statements, it's hard to keep track in the wall. Yeah. Yes, to those of you who tweeted me and said, so Cooley's not going to attend the ceremony Sunday, where he's named one of the franchise's 90 Greatest. I didn't even know it was this Sunday, but no.

He told us on the podcast yesterday he has no intention. And he did say, he said at this point, he just doesn't have a lot of desire to be involved with the team. But he was very appreciative for those of you that tweeted me, very appreciative of the fan support. He loves the fans, all that voted for him for this. He was a lock to make the next 10 to be on that 90 greatest list. But no, he's not coming back for the festivities,

which I guess people have pointed out to me is this weekend. I didn't know that. You know what? I tweeted something out about that. Speaking of little things, and, you know, we can argue as to whether or not this is a little bit of, little thing or not. But they're not just calling it alumni weekend. They're calling it alumni homecoming. No, they're not. They're not doing that again, are they? Yes, they are. Yes,

they are. Where's DeAngelo Williams? Where's DeAngelo Williams for the Panthers? And Rod Rivera was the coach of that team. I guess he was. Good point. Yes. Yes. Here it is, the headline on their press release. Washington commanders announced 90th anniversary at alumni homecoming weekend festivities. Can you believe it? I hope I can find the sound drop. I may have to text Sali to get it. Hopefully he has it.

Or maybe it's on the internet somewhere. Somebody tweeted it to me. I'll see if I can find it and get it to you. Please, please. So, he tweeted it to me. Please text me that. Because I tweeted in his comments. I tweeted his comments.

Some of his comments where basically, you know, he said, you don't say you're going to have a homecoming in the National Football League. He, no, he, and he said, we were pissed. The game day, and I'm looking at the game day, it's customary, and I look on there, and it says, homecoming. And I'm thinking of myself, like, this is the National Football League. Are you serious? Homecoming?

Homecoming. And, like, it's not like you tried to hide it. You blatantly put it on the front of the game day. And you're talking about somebody fired out today? He's pissed. Yeah. That was, by the way, that was 2012. That was the RG3 year.

That was the final game and turned out to be the final loss of the season of the regular season. You know, they entered that by week. Which is the, you know, famous where Shanahan said, we're going to have to reevaluate everything. And then they came out and they ended the season on a seven-game win streak and they made the playoffs as the division champion and lost to Seattle. in the infamous Seattle, you know, RG3 playoff game. But I think that, correct me if I'm wrong, Tommy.

I think that was the first year where Bruce had, you know, Bruce really, one of the things he did well when he became, when he came back into the organization, came back, when he was hired by Snyder in 2010 to be the general manager

and eventually the team president, is he reconnected with alumni of the organization. people, former players, former coaches, they had grown very, very tired and felt really left out by the Snyder in Vinny era. And Bruce reached out and he created a lot of cool things for the alumni of the organization. I think it was a good thing that he did. And that was a weekend in which he was going to honor the alumni. But he called it homecoming.

They should have just called it alumni. weekend, but he called it homecoming and they printed it on all of the game material. And DeAngelo Williams and the Panthers saw it, and it fired them up. And DeAngelo Williams after the game went off on them saying, this is the NFL. You don't call a game homecoming. Yeah. But they're calling it homecoming again? And you know what?

I could be wrong, but I don't think they've used the word homecoming in these online weekends. I don't think so either. I think they got away from it. I don't think they have. So here's what you probably have here. A lack of institutional knowledge in that building. That doesn't even go back to 2012. I know.

Yes. Yes. Somebody also told me that. Somebody didn't say, somebody didn't stop and say, well, we can't do this. Remember what happened in 2012. Take out homecoming. That's what you got to do. They didn't take out homecoming right away.

It was several years of homecoming. And then I think finally. Okay. Somebody got to Bruce and said, you know, homecoming, homecoming's a college and a high school thing. And by the way, the homecoming opponent is usually an opponent. The perception is that you can kick the shit out of. Right. You're guaranteed a win pretty much.

You're just firing up the opponent a little bit. And you're giving them, you know, bulletin board material. Don't do that. Just call it the alumni weekend. And I think they got back to that. But I'm seeing now. Yeah, in fact, by the way, one of the emails I hadn't read from yesterday was the email from the team about the 90th anniversary homecoming weekend. It was right next to your email that I didn't read until this morning, and then I couldn't see.

So, oh, here's another thing. Did you know that they're giving away seat cushions for the game on Sunday? Now, this has the potential for a glorious moment or a. another embarrassing moment. Yes. Right? Yeah, why... Why is Cooley trying to call me on this line?

Cooley's trying to call me on the line that you and I are recording on, and I don't know why he's doing that. He never calls on this line. What does he want? Okay. Maybe he's butt dialing you. I should have just conferenced him in. Well, here's the thing.

If the Packers, if they beat the Packers, which is certainly plausible. You know, and it's fourth quarter, and everyone's in a celebratory mood. Fans are going to be really pumped to recreate that moment against the Falcons, you know, back in RFK,

they're tossing the seatbelt, skinny cushions on the field in celebration. Very few people are going to remember the moment. They weren't there. However, well, I think a lot of media is alerting them to that moment. Okay. And, however, if it's an embarrassing,

game for the commanders, and they are losing, and there's a lot of dissatisfaction. Those seat cushions could wind up on the field for a different reason. Oh, yeah, you're taking great risk handing seat cushions out on seat cushion day. But, you know, how many people are going to be there? I would imagine there are going to be a lot of Packers fans there Sunday. You know, the Packers... And they'll be happy to toss those seat cushions on the field if their team is winning. The Packers are hurting coming into this game.

Aaron Rogers didn't even practice yesterday. I had a guy on from Green Bay this morning that said Rogers is definitely going to play. But he's not healthy. The team's not in a good spot right now. They've got major offensive line problems. We know about their receiver problems, you know, from the offseason through the early part of the season. This Green Bay team is totally getable on Sunday. And even for a team that's not very good.

because let's face it, they almost lost to the Patriots two weeks ago at Lambo. They lost to the Giants and they lost to the Jets. I know the Giants are 5 and 1 and the Jets are 4 and 2. And by the way, I think the Patriots defensively are excellent. So they're not three terrible teams. This will be, I think, of the stretch of games that they've had. Let's just say the least impressive opponent that they'll face in Washington. but Washington's played well defensively, especially up front,

and it's going to match up against an offensive line, like our offensive line, that is really, really struggled to protect Aaron Rogers. And Rogers is not 100% wasn't last week either. Yeah, here's the thing for Green Bay. They don't have Taylor Heineke like Washington does, baby. They don't have a Taylor Heineke behind center, like the commanders do. You know what?

I was going to save this, I'm going to get to it now since you brought it up. So, Polly, our good friend Polly, who's been calling our shows for years, and Polly DMs me all the time, and I like Polly a lot. And Polly, you know I like you a lot. He sent me this DM last night, and I saw it early this morning. I saw his DM. I didn't see your email.

Well, I couldn't have seen your email. I could barely even read it. But he said, you and a lot of callers seem to be banking on Taylor being the same QB from last year. And what you saw last year was the end-all be-all. Do we not take into consideration that he was a first-year starter on a bad team? Do we not take a wait-and-see approach with the thought of him improving from year one to year two? The game may have slowed down for him, better skilled position players, although pass-blocking is weak.

But Turner called more runs last Thursday, and Ron hinted that that's more of the direction they need to go in, not to mention the defense seems to be improving on a weekly basis. and in my opinion is definitely better than the unit they had out there last year. I'm not saying he's the present or future quarterback one, just saying let's not act like we've seen a finished product. This is the kind of hedging and hawing, hemming, and hedging that sports talk hosts do. It's like there's just a lot of questions here, right? shouldn't we take the wait and see approach? Do we not take into consideration?

You know, I'm not saying that he's the present or even the future, but, you know, look, I mean, the truth is it's a total, it's totally reasonable to have that position. You know, it's a thinking out loud exercise. And for Pauley, I love you, but you put yourself into that position that many talk show hosts strive for, which is, you know, if he plays well, you're going to look really. smart. If he doesn't, you didn't risk a thing with what you said. There you go. There's the secret, baby. There's the secret. No. But the truth is, it's a totally reasonable position. That's fine. You know, he's smart. He's really smart. And he said a lot of things during his presser yesterday that said he was working on arm strength issues and how to generate more arm strength. And he started 15 games last year. I hope he's better this year than

was last year when we start to see him. I really do. There's another tweet that I got that I wanted to that I wanted to read. So this guy, Steely Brothers on Twitter, he said, you say Taylor Heineke is strictly a backup. Sensible rebuttal says half of the NFL is starting a backup or non-franchised quarterback.

Daniel Jones, Jimmy Garoppolo, Marcus Marriota, Tannahill, Gough, Gino, Mills, Fields, etc. You know, prefer, he says, prefer Taylor Heineke as a backup, sure. Like the other late teens, low 20s starters. So what he's trying to say is that Taylor Heineke, you know, might be a backup, but so are half of the quarterbacks in the league. So I don't want to be, I don't want to hedge or hem or haw on my answer to this one. I want to be really clear on this one. You know, there are back half of the league quarterbacks that aren't good enough to be

starters in the league that leads you to, you know, contender status. And a lot of those starters not only probably should be backups, some of them have been. You know, Gino Smith. Tannehill, Marietta. But there is a distinction that I am making between those guys in Taylor Heineke. I want to be clear about this. Those are starters, current starters in the league right now, that I would actually take over Taylor Heineke. That's my opinion.

I'm entitled to it. I'm not going to hedge here and try to be smart one way and not have any risk on the other way. I'm taking risk here. I don't think I'm taking risk. But those are current starters in the league, even though they're back half of the league starters, although Jared Gough is playing pretty well. So was Gina Smith, by the way, I would remind everybody. But I understand what your point is, but I don't put Taylor Heineke into that category. I put him into the category of true backup quarterback, Chase Daniel, Nick Mullins, Colt McCoy, etc.

I put him high on that list of true backups. but I don't subscribe to your theory that he's one of those back-half guys that's also really you could call either a starter, a back-half starter or a backup. No, I think there's another category of guys that are true career backups. And by the way, Chase Daniels has been a career backup that's made a shitload of money being a career backup. And by the way, a good one that when he's come in, he's played well at times. Colt McCoy.

Nick Mullins has done that. I think that's the category that Taylor Heineke is in. But to Pauley's point, I also acknowledge that he could improve. But I think personally, I've seen enough to know what a true backup quarterback looks like. And maybe I'll be wrong. Maybe he will come out on Sunday and have an arm that's 30% stronger and have a knowledge of the game that is light years in decision-making where he was from last year. and maybe he's even a better, more athletic and in better shape than he was last year.

And that all of a sudden it becomes really clear that Taylor Heineke is one of those guys that you can call an NFL starter, you know, even if he's a back half of the league starter. We'll see. We're going to get a chance to find out because he's going to start, I think, a few games. And by the way, he gets a start against a Green Bay team that's vulnerable right now, that he played well against last year. You know, he made some mistakes in the red zone, but they, you know, I pointed this out yesterday to Cooley, 430 yards, 25 first downs. They were in the red zone four times.

They were 0 for four in the red zone. But they moved the football against a Green Bay team that last year was much better defensively than they are this year. So, and by the way, offensively, Green Bay really struggling. So we'll, we'll see. I like Taylor Heineke. I love him as a backup. And there's so much about him that's likable. I've never disliked Taylor Heineke.

And I've said over and over again, I think he does some things at a very high level. But I can also say to you, I don't believe he's a starting quarterback, not even like a back half of the starting quarterback category in the league. So what do you want to say about Taylor Heineke and what you're expecting on Sunday? Well, that's a reasonable position. I never said that Taylor Hineke was a starting quarterback. I always maintain that the Carson-Wenst deal was a bad deal for a number of reasons, and that they could have plausibly got into the season drafting a quarterback number one in the first round. Even if it was a weak class, get the guy who's the best available,

and then you get to try it again next year. uh... but uh... and go with taylor heineke and bring you know bring the young player along until he could step in and take his place if he if need be and i think the fan base would have bought into that with the number one pick there i'd always thought that was a better way to go i don't i don't think you can

you can win playoff games games with taylor heineke as your quarterback for a full season i don't think that can probably happen but i think this team The way it's constructed with their issues offensively, I think Taylor Heinecke gives them a better chance to win than Carson Wentz did. Carson Wentz didn't play well. Carson Wentz also didn't have much around him that played well either. Carson Wentz also had an offensive coordinator that I think has not had a great season so far.

And that disappoints me because I like Scott Turner and I've liked a lot of what he's done in the first two years. And the truth is now that he's got a guy that's been with him for four, you know, years and really has an understanding of the system because Taylor's been in Scott Turner's system longer than anybody on the team. And Carson was brand new to it. You know, what you just said is possible, very possible. I also just want to make sure that, you know, and you know this, I too wanted, as I said, 85 times during the off season. I want big swings with high ceilings, and I don't care how low the floor is. I wanted Russell Wilson, which, you know, wouldn't have turned out well. And I said over and over again, personally, I think that if they were to draft Malik Willis or Kenny Pickett,

it would be the bang for the, you know, new brand buck that they were looking for just as much as Carson Wentz was. In some ways, maybe even greater. if they had drafted, you know, a Pickett or a Willis. Pickett they would have had to draft in the first round. And Willis, they could have obviously drafted in the second round. But I was not a fan of the Carson Wentz trade or the price paid for it. And I didn't believe that he was the quarterback of the future. I did believe that Carson Wentz provided a much higher ceiling than Taylor Heineke,

which, by the way, I still believe. But it doesn't mean that I don't think that the floor, is low for Wentz either. And by the way, he was butting up more against the floor than he was, you know, against the ceiling over these first six games. I also wanted to just mention one other thing real quickly as it relates to Taylor Heineke on Sunday. The backup quarterback Sunday is Sam Howl. And let's not forget that one of the concerns that we all had about Carson Wentz and, you know, the reason that he hadn't had great years is he also had suffered a lot of injuries in recent years and hadn't played full seasons. until last year.

And so there was an injury concern with him coming in. But by the way, there was an injury concern. Remember, with Taylor Heineke. You know, when he started that Tampa game and played the Tampa game, we talked about, you know, during that offseason, is he the answer? I said, no. Some people were really excited.

A lot of people were really excited about maybe Taylor Heineke, you know, as the possibility of the guy there. But he had been injured. I think it was like he had played in four NFL games and had been injured in three of them. So he got injured last year, banged up in that Dallas game, and they brought Kyle Allen in. But that was also a little bit of a benching for performance because he was horrendous in that game, you know, the first game after the four game winning streak. Just keep in mind, you know, the way he plays, and I like the way he plays,

we might see Sam Howl sooner rather than later. That's true. you're right but I'll keep a glass half full and say that what you said is a possibility that because he knows the offense and because he can move a little bit and because they've got you know a series of teams coming up here that they're not playing the cowboy's defense or not playing the Eagles defense that it's possible that they could they could look better offensively but I don't I doubt that anything will happen this year with Taylor Heinecke that will change my mind with respect to him being what I believe him to be, which is a solid backup quarterback,

a high end, but true backup quarterback. I do like him, though, and I listened to that interview yesterday with him, and it's hard not to like Taylor Heineke and where he was and the position he's in now. Like Chase Daniel, remember when I, we've had this conversation before, like, Gino Smith is a good example. And the Gino Smith is really playing well. Gina Smith is also a bigger dude with a bigger arm and the whole thing. But if you are a really good guy and you're smart and you are a major positive in the locker room and in the

quarterback room in particular, you can have a long career in the NFL making a hell of a lot of money. Chase Daniel has been that through his entire career. I think we looked this up at one point. You know, like there's a single-digit number of starts in his career overall and maybe like two dozen games that he's actually played in. His career earnings, I'm pulling it up right now because I want to get the exact number right. Career earnings for him $42 million. I know.

He came into the league 2009. He's still in the league. League is Justin Herbert's backup in L.A. for the Chargers. And he's playing this year for $2 million. And he's earned $42 million. Taylor Heineke could be on the verge of having a run of like six to ten years of being a backup quarterback. How old is Heineke now 30 or 29? I don't know. Because Chase Daniels 36. So good for him. All right, let's get to the stuff that I want to hear your opinion on. which is the Ursae stuff.

By the way, Sally Jenkins was on the radio show with me this morning. I love Sally. She was awesome. You can listen to that at the Team 980.com. We'll get to more discussion on the Ursa stuff and get Tom's thoughts on it when we come back right after these words from a few of our sponsors. From Big Farmer 83 via Apple Podcasts.

I love this show. The main teams are covered. I'm not sure I love any of them anymore, but thank you for bringing a little joy to being a D.C. sports fan. Cooley and Tom are the best exclamation point. Thank you, Kip, I mean, Kevin. Kip is the, what the Tony Kornheiser show people call me. By the way, Big Farmer 83, I just noticed this.

Writing from Bahrain. Bahrain, where we are currently, I think in the top five, of all football podcasts. We are... We're number two. We're number two in Bahrain. We really are. Number two in the football category on Apple podcasts in Bahrain.

Our friends in Bermuda always love when we read the Bermuda numbers. In Bermuda right now, we are... Where are we? Oh, God. I don't know where we are now. It looks like we're in the... It looks like we're number six in the football category in Bermuda right now. Okay.

I'm sorry. How can that be? No, we're number six. We're number six. How can that be? I don't know. How can there be five podcasts ahead of it? I don't know.

I think football in Bermuda includes soccer podcasts because that's what they call, you know, we call it soccer. Right. They call it football. I think that's the issue. Maybe we need to take a trip down to Bermuda to meet without peeps down there. We should hold an event in Bermuda, but that might upset the people that would like us to hold an event here, right here in the United States. I like Bermuda. I've been to Bermuda several times.

It is gorgeous, and the great thing about Bermuda, it's an easy trip. Super easy. Yeah, I've never been to Bermuda. You know where else that Kevin Shee and Show is big? Shelly's. It's big of Shelly's back room. Of course it is. I mean, I walk in the Shelly's, and like I'll do it tonight.

and I'm going to Shelly's tonight after I teach to watch some Thursday night football, and I get people come up to me and say how much they love listening to Kevin and me on the podcast, and how much they enjoy it, and I appreciate that. You know, I always appreciate that. And people are willing to do that at Shelly's to come up to you and talk to you because it's that kind of a place. It's a friendly place. You know, it's not a...

It's not a snotty place. It's just the opposite. It's a warm, friendly place where the average show can have a smoke with a high-ranking member, maybe of a corporate, you know, a K-street lobbying firm, and they can talk sports together. It happens all the time down there, you know. And they can do it while they're eating some great food from their award-winning food menu. I'll be having my chicken tenders down there. The best chicken tenders ever had.

You'll be down there tonight right after you teach your class at Georgetown. Yes, I will. And even if I stay late, they still have food because they have a great late night menu as well. It's an adult place. It's a place adults. Don't bring your kids. It's a place for adults. They're smoking.

They're drinking. There's wild talking going on. There's food going on. It's a party. And tonight it'll be a Thursday night party. Shelly's back room at 1331 F Street, northwest in the district. Great part of town, too. Convenient part of town.

All right. I spent with Cooley yesterday a solid 45 minutes, I think. I didn't even check as we talked about the Jim Mersey comments and fallout. I want to hear what you think. Well, as I wrote in my column, I think this is it. I think this is the end. Because I tried to think of a possibility where there could be a recovery from this, where like two years from now, and I talk to some people in the business about this,

is there any possibility two years from now, and I use the term rearview mirror, that people look in the rearview mirror of this, and remember how Snyder survived, and there's no scenario where that happened. It's too damaged. It's just too much destruction, and not just a fan base, too much destruction inside the NFL right now. You know, inside the NFL headquarters. I mean, his toxicity has gone from Ashburn to Capitol Hill to NFL headquarters.

You know, and I just don't see a way where we still have not, we don't know the results of any of the investigations that are going on yet. None of them. Okay? And still, he's on the ropes right now with a guy like Jim Ursay, who of all guys to be the conscious of the league, the guy who was suspended for six months in 2014 for DWI. And I just think there's no coming back from this.

and I think, do I think they'll vote him out? I think they're going to give him a chance to jump or be pushed. And to jump would probably include selling his team for more money than what we had to discuss before. I came up with a $7 billion figure. Yeah, you did. Oh, really? That was mentioned to me. That was mentioned to me as an inflated price that would keep Dan happy. but since this is a franchise

where in the right hands, it's an important premier franchise. Okay? You could go to bidders and say, hey, look, the price is $7 billion. You're not going to get people to walk away. They're not going to balk at that. A handful of people, okay?

Not to own this team and the possibilities that come with it. So I just think that it may be an ugly process, but Dan, he's not going to survive this. Skipper Dan's going to take his yacht and sail off to parts unknown. $7 billion. I mean, you know, I remember when I was sitting here saying a year ago or whatever, I think this thing could sell for $5 billion.

You can't look at Forbes valuations, people, to determine sale price. This is a, you know, this is a supply demand. There's no supply, and there's no supply. There's massive demand from, you know, whatever number of, you know, mega billionaires we now have in our country. There are lots of them. I mean, the Walton family just bought the Denver Broncos for $4.7 billion something in that neighborhood. Nobody thought it was going to go for that.

Denver is a tiny market compared to what Washington is, both in size and revenue potential and in importance. You know, I've been saying, I think this is a $6 billion sale. if you're saying that somebody's telling you $7 billion, then somehow they amp it up just to really ensure that he takes it, that they get to the price that he won't turn it down. But by the way, you write this too, and it's true, if Washington sold, let's just say it was like for $6.7 billion.

That helps every other NFL owner too. You know, it's like our last sale, all right, this is what the neighborhood looks like now. So I just want to tell you what I said yesterday, and what I actually said to Sally this morning when I had Sally Jenkins on. I knew that when Ursa said what he said the other day, that it was significant, you know, to get an owner, to turn on another owner in that league is a big deal. And it's probably a reflection of a lot of people feeling the same way Jim Ursay feels.

By the way, none of which is a surprise to all of us. We've known Dan's been despised not only by everybody here, but everybody in the league and that this has been a disaster for the NFL Washington has. But still, the surprise was that somebody went on the record publicly and he sought it out. You know, he planned to do this. And so I understand when people that have a lot of experience like you and Sally and many others say, yeah, when that happens, it's over. My concern, Tommy, is what the commissioner said in his press conference on Tuesday. The constant harping about the Mary Joe White investigation. And we have to stop speculating.

We have to wait for the facts to come out. The team came out with a statement when they first went after Ursa to say, you know, we are confident that when he's had an opportunity to see the actual evidence in this case, Mr. Ursay will conclude that there is no reason for the Snyders to consider selling the franchise. And they won't, by the way, they wrote defiantly. My concern is why are we, when I say we, why are they, why are they tied into this Mary Joe White investigation as like this is the thing we're relying on? Now, maybe it's because they know what Mary Joe White is going to say, and she's going to have a lot of damning stuff in there.

I hope that's true. Because if she doesn't, I just think that they've missed the boat on this. This isn't about the Mary Joe White investigation. It's not about any of the six to seven investigations that are going on. It's about the total aggregate of the investigations, the Beth Wilkinson investigation, which, by the way, as I pointed out, and you understand that. this is a resolved matter in the league's mind. They find him $10 million and they quasi suspended him, even though he had people calling people like you to say he wasn't suspended.

The team, he wasn't suspended and the team was fine, not him, which was just so stupid on his part and the league's part. They should have really punished him to make it feel like this was really resolved in the public's mind, in the fan's mind. This is about a market, Tommy, that is gone. And the only chance of getting it back is for him to leave. It's not about what's in the Mary. I understand that if the Mary Joe White investigation provides something that'll get 24 votes, great.

But what if it doesn't? Now, Sally said she thinks Ursa speaking means they've got the 24 votes. but no other owners spoke and the commissioner emphasized the Mary Joe White investigation and that for now everything is speculation we've got to wait for the facts to come out. The facts

have come out. The market's dead. It's gone and nobody's coming back at a meaningful number for the league to have a viable business here in Washington until he leaves. That's my point.

I just don't, I don't, I have this weird feeling that, you know, I'm skeptical because of this whole Mary Joe White investigation reliance. It's legitimate to be skeptical. I mean, you know, considering what we've gone through for the past 20 years and, you know, he still exists as an NFL owner. That's a reasonable conclusion. As far as the Mary Jo White thing, I would always say to you that there are a

are investigations that are going on that could have an impact on this, that are beyond the NFL's control. You know, we don't know what the transcript, if it's ever released from the House Committee on Oversight Reform will say. We don't know what the investigation in the district by the Attorney General there will say. I agree. I agree. I agree. So there are other, no, which he's bleeding out of so many orifices, you know, I don't think that all of them are going to get so. up and he's going to be, he's going to be a viable owner again.

I just think there's too much. But you've got legitimate concerns, and, you know, there may be a legal reason why Roger Dell keeps talking about the Mary Jo White investigation. That's fair. This may be part of their case. I mean, I'm just speculating. I don't know. There could be some kind of legal reason why he consistently refers to it.

You know, because I don't think they can get rid of an NFL owner for. bad business. I know that, but it's not bad business anymore. It's a dead business. And there's a big difference. Like, all these years, we've talked about this, and we've said, you know, two things. One, you can't get rid of an owner just because he's an incompetent bad owner. That's not the way these things work.

And, oh, by the way, if you try, it's the there for the grace of God go I theory. That, you know, they're, he's come. And especially with this guy, he's coming after. everybody. But this isn't a matter of a poorly performing owner. This is the matter of a potentially one of your most lucrative markets with potentially a lot of pent-up demand that will never work as long as he's here. It can't work with him here. It's dead with him here. Look, you can make the case, and I've mentioned this a couple of times in the last few days. that the name is such a big deal, too, that it used to be just get rid of him and everything's fine.

There are people that aren't coming back even if he exits. But your only chance, your only chance of turning this into a viable NFL market where you're tapping into the kind of revenue that this market offers up to somebody other than Dan is to get him out of here. But you're right. Owners don't get, you know, voted out for being horrible owners. But the market is so important and it's dead. And, you know, the team also, you know, the one thing that I would say is that the team's reaction, certainly it feels like the team feels like for the first time they're in deep trouble

or he feels like he's for the first time in deep trouble because they have their talking points, man. You know, this John Brownlee, Browning, now I'm forgetting what his actual name is, because I got it wrong on radio this morning. I think it's Brownlee. Brownlee, okay. So he was on with Darren Haynes from Channel 9 last night, and he created a headline by saying that Mary Joe White hasn't even asked Dan Snyder, hasn't even talked to Dan Snyder. And I saw that headline going around. And then I watched the interview, and he said, well, Hold on. Let me make sure I'm being clear on this. I didn't say that Dan hasn't participated in the Mary Joe White investigation.

I'm just saying that they haven't talked. Well, it's very possible that he just provided written answers to everything Mary Joe White wanted from him. And that... Right. He wouldn't... He wouldn't... Look what the committee had to go through to get him to talk to them. Yeah. So, you know, there's all of these slight of hand talking points, you know, the last two years in Vestry light the accounting. firm, the auditing firm, excuse me, that's come in and said, this is, you know, this is an organization that people that companies around the globe are emulating. They're calling from all over. And again, it's like relevant, Your Honor. Nothing that's happened in the last two years, with the exception of the DEA thing, because that is an investigation. So it hasn't been completely

clean in the last two years. But the conversation is about what happened in the 20 years previous to the last two years. You know, they've got their talking points and they've become offensive, you know, in trying to get a narrative out there that this organization is completely different than it used to be and that it was all Bruce's fault. The private investigation campaign of witnesses has taken place in the last two years. Yes, but, but this is something that they vehemently denied. Denied.

I know they did. And so this is another thing that could be a little bit of, you know, slight of hand. It's, you know, really he hasn't talked to Mary Jo White, but maybe he's actually provided a lot of answers. No, he hasn't hired private investigators, but perhaps what Don Van Nata and Seth Wickersham wrote, which they didn't write that he had hired them.

They wrote that he has said and told people that he's hired private investigators to investigate owners in Roger Goodell, which could be him just running his mouth. I mean investigating. I mean investigating witnesses. people who spoke to Beth Wilkinson. That has happened in the past two years. Yeah, and the tip list and all of that stuff. Look, I hope I'm not skeptical because it makes sense to be skeptical.

I'm skeptical on that, just like a lot of people are. I'm skeptical with some specificity, which is the Tuesday Roger Goodell press conference where he just kept emphasizing, let's wait on the facts from this Mary John. White investigation, as if they're pinning their hopes on this. And to me, I don't think they need to pin their hopes on the Mary Joe White investigation. It would be great if it produced something, you know, that the owners just couldn't stand and that was it. But there's just so much of this other stuff, the other investigations as you've talked about, but really at the end of the day, and I understand that it's hard to get an owner out for performance. But they've got a market

that's died. It's really died. and there's only one chance to start to get it back to life, to bring it back to life. And that is, he's gone. Sally suggested to me that she thought there's a possibility that the way it'll go down is that Jerry Jones, which she says the two have never really had a relationship. And I've heard that before, too. You know, it's more Dan sort of, you know, ogling at Jerry over the years and wanting to be Jerry or whatever. I mean, it's just the whole thing's weird.

that in the relationships with players half his age, you know, and the tightness that he likes to develop with star players. But that eventually, like Jerry may go to him and say, can't protect you, they're going to you out, let's figure out this thing where you voluntarily sell $7 billion, $6.5 billion on the table, whatever you said, Tommy, you know, you've heard the number to be. You'll save the league a lot of embarrassment. you'll save yourself a lot of embarrassment. The bottom line here is your market with you in it isn't viable anymore.

You can't make this work. No one wants to support you. You can't get a stadium. You don't have any fans left. You're getting terrible television ratings, which, by the way, contribute to the biggest revenue source that all of us have, which is media revenue, and you're not pulling your weight in local television numbers.

You're certainly not pulling your weight on gate or concessions or parking. It's just not. It's not happening and it's not going to happen. And, you know, she suggested that there could be some intermediaries like the Maras. I was like, really? She said, yeah, in Game of Thrones speak, the Maras essentially are like Tyrion Lannister. Those of you who are Game of Thrones fans will understand. Like, he is going to be the guy that, you know, really brings both sides together and gets this thing done.

He's the negotiator. He's the intermediary. I don't know how it works, but to me that seems like the way that it happens without a lot of ugliness. But is that the way he's going to go? Is he really going to voluntarily sell this team? If he gets voted out, it's going to be a shit show for a few years. Yeah, it will. It will.

And people talk about how Al Davis sued the league and Al Davis was successful. And I always point out to him, not that this has a lot of. anything to do with the legal arguments in Al Davis's case, but he had a winning franchise. Right. I mean, people liked Al Davis. They did. They liked Al David. They loved him.

Okay. I mean, he was not to hate it in the NFL, but he wasn't hated in the stand. Tommy, he had one of the biggest brands. He was the owner of one of the biggest brands in sports. The Oakland Raiders, the Raiders, just win baby. And they did. And he had an unbelievable fan base, which, by the way, became very much a, they were a national brand as much as they were in Northern California or when they moved to L.A., a Southern California brand. The Raiders were a massive revenue driver for the NFL.

He carried, he did his job from a business standpoint. They weren't suffering from a terrible market or from the Raiders being in the league. So you think it happens when and how? I don't know when it happens, but I think it's going to happen. I think the first step will be they try to get them to sell. But if that doesn't work, then I think they'll just still go DefCon, full DefCon 5. You got your wish with our say.

Your lawyers versus our lawyers. You wanted these Titans of Industry, and he's not. He was born into it. Yeah. But you wanted these Titans of Industry to step up and say, are you kidding me? You think you're going to bully me? And that's basically what Erse said. Well, of course, I mean, all of the skeletons have been brought to life out of his closets in recent years.

So he's got nothing to worry about. But you wonder, you know, hopefully there are another 23 of them that aren't afraid of what might come out about them. because we know one thing about Dan, and this is part complimentary and part, you know, critical. He is a fighter. He is that. But he is one petty, vindictive son of a bitch. And we have seen that over and over again with season ticket holders,

with small newspapers, you know, this is what he will do. He's going to go after them. They're best, you know, as much as they may not, fear him and these guys are like, you know, F him. At the end of the day, the easiest path is for somebody like Jerry to say, come here, brother, time to go. Yeah. Let's do this.

We'll get you an unbelievable number. You'll be able to buy a couple more of those big boats. I don't. Because if he does not sell and they vote him out, then he's out. then he'll have to, then he'll sue, you know, he'll go to court and he'll try to overturn it. But I don't see unless he wins some kind of huge settlement in a court case. And maybe he think he would that he's going to do better financially than $7 billion to sell the team.

Tommy, he doesn't make good decision. He makes impulsive decisions. He also makes decisions that usually come back and backfire and blow up in his face. See the Gruden situation. If they actually were the ones that leaked the emails, I don't know if they were for sure, but a lot of people feel they were. Yeah. So, okay.

We've solved all of that. We'll see what happens. I mean, I was saying this morning to my producer Denton on the air, I think it would be just kind of funny if he just decided to go full Dan Snyder again. Firing, you know, he fires Ron. He demotes Martin Mayhew to assistant general manager, makes himself owner and general manager. He makes some big trades before the trade deadline on November 1st. He just goes full Dan.

Like at this point, that would actually be kind of fun to sit here and watch. You know, he hires Vinny back. He brings Vinny back. You know, fires all the Carolina people, demotes his wife to some sort of public relations role, and just starts trading for big names. Overpaying, of course. I mean, that would be, you know what? That would make this season, which isn't going swimmingly,

that would make it, you know, certainly interesting. What the hell? At this point, he can't do anything that can make it go any lower. All right, before we finish up, what's your prediction on Sunday? Well, I got the commanders winning. I got commanders winning a 27 to 20 game. 27 to 20. I think Taylor Heineke runs for one touchdown, passes for another.

Okay. I think they're going to, I tell you what, I think the commanders, will probably have over 150 yards rushing as a team. I hope that that's true because if they do that, they have a really good chance of winning the game because that's where he will really thrive, you know, with play action bootleg. Yeah, yeah.

He, you know, if they can come up with that model that they had last year during that four-game winning streak, they got a really good chance. Okay. That's it for Tommy. One more segment on the show today. I think you'll find it interesting. It deals with veterans of wars and golf.

We'll finish up with that right after these words from a few of our sponsors. We're a little bit late getting to this story this week because of all of the Washington commanders, Dan Snyder News from earlier in the week. But joining me right now is Chris Noak. Chris is a retired U.S. Marine Corps veteran. He's the veteran and military liaison for the PGA of America and the PGA Hope Program,

which is a rehab golf program for veterans. And they played one of the many events they play every year Monday earlier this week at Congressional. So it's, you know, we missed the lead up to the event, but that doesn't mean we can't talk about the event. In fact, sometimes, Chris, it's better to recap the event than preview it because we've got some results. We've got some results to talk about. But before we get to that, tell everybody what PGA Hope is and what golf is doing for veterans. Sure.

So what PGA Hope is, it's a therapeutic golf program that PGA of America puts on. It's a six to eight-week program. We start veterans off with the grip and take them all the way up to the week of graduation. And our goal in that is when they go out and play the game of golf on that graduation day, if they shoot 110, that's 110 moments and time, they're not thinking or experiencing the trauma that they're dealing with. How we do that is through the game of golf. If you've ever played the game of golf, you know that you have to focus on the shot.

You can't be thinking you've got to clear your mind. So we're trying to give them the tools through the game of golf to learn how to clear their mind, think about singular, focus and not think about outside influences, not have flashbacks, and just focus on striking that golf ball, as well as forgetting about the bad shots, just like you need to forget about your bad day. You know, if you play the game of golf, you have a bad shot, you carry that onto the next hole that's going to happen again. So we do that. Our PJ professionals are specifically trained in this to teach hope. You have to attend a one-day seminar where we talk about

military culture, interacting with veterans of PTSD, as well as teach the pros, how to teach disabilities, amputees, spinal cord, blinded, and things like that. You know, Chris, perspective in life is everything. I am a golfer, and I've had many of those rounds of, you know, too many shots. But what's interesting is, like, as you were talking, I'm thinking, you know, parents will often say to their kids, yeah, really, you think you have it rough. You could be, you know, you could be looking for food in some African country, or you could be in Iraq or Afghanistan right now. You try to put things in perspective for people.

But it's funny as you said that because golf is, you know, very addictive as, you know, I know you've been playing for a while. And those of us that love the game of golf, there is an addictive quality to it. And there is a lovely quality to it. But a calming kind of getting away from it all isn't exactly the way most of us with certain perspectives would describe it. But I guess it certainly is a hell of a lot better to be a congressional than it is in some Afghan jungle, obviously. But, you know, I'm curious, you know, do you have, like, have you figured out, have veterans figured out how to make, you know, golf much more relaxing than most people can make it? Yeah, it's amazing how veterans are gravitating towards this game. A, like you said, it's addicting.

You've got to realize you have an all-volunteer force. It takes a type A personality to, you know, if you're willing to put your line on the life of this country. So we introduce them to the game of golf. And it has such a calming effect because it's so singular focus. You cannot be thinking about anything else. So we're using that skill set to give them that opportunity to learn, this skill through the game of golf and apply to everyday life. We'll put 7,500 veterans through

the program this year. We'll do 20,000 by our goal is 26 to have 20,000 veterans each year that's awesome. And you had 20 players, I think 20 plus veterans playing out a congressional on Monday. That's a rather lovely situation. I know that you guys have played congressional before, what did you think of the new congressional? Well, it's awesome. What we do, though, is it's more than just playing congressional. It's a week of health and wellness. So the first half of the day we spend doing wellness,

whether we're working with the Cohen Veteran Network, recognizing some mental health issues and dealing with some mental health treatment. We do public speaking. We do social media teaching these veterans from life skills. So when they go back, they can be a better system. as well as help promote the game, and then we get to play Congressional Blue, which is absolutely phenomenal. Oh, my God. It's amazing what they've done. It's certainly different than it used to be. So how did it go? How did you play? I know that you had a significant injury many, many years ago,

and the game of golf has done great things for you. So, you know, that is one of the more difficult tracks to play, you know, even if it's a charity event. So how'd you play? I played well. You know, it was very fortunate it was a shambles, so we didn't have to worry about how, you know, your drive. We had a good driver on our team that played our own ball in. And I played well. You know, that's the games coming around.

And when you're at congressional, you kind of slow it down a little bit and just appreciate the course and really don't try to hit everything a mile long because you're going to get in trouble. Yeah, the views now of just the entire course from all the spine course are incredible. And those of you that don't know what a shamble is, Chris kind of explained it. But basically, you know, you just take the best drive and go from there, which makes it a quicker day for sure. Anyway, so tell everybody, you know, veterans and others how they can get involved. Sure.

You can go to the website pGAreach.org. You'll see a military tab there. You can click it. You can get on Twitter on Action Nowakus where you'll see me, get hold of me, or go on to the website. We will get you here, a veteran, we will get you linked up with the game and golf because we know how great it is in the healing process. I'm glad you guys had a great day out there Monday. Continued best of luck with everything you're doing. Where are you headed next?

Actually heading to headquarters, Frisco, Texas. Hopefully get a chance to play the new course and do some. speaking out there and hopefully get some more veteran involved in these great games. Awesome. Chris, thanks so much. Really appreciate it. Keep up the good work. Thanks for having me on and I appreciate all you're doing. All right, that's it for the day back tomorrow with Cooley.