The Kevin Sheehan Show - Heinicke Memories + John Wall

Episode Date: May 9, 2026

Kevin opened with Taylor Heinicke retirement reaction. Rookie Mini-Camp opened today and Kevin reacted to some of what Dan Quinn had to say. John Wall joined Kevin to talk NBA Playoffs, Wizards' Draft Lottery, and his new position as President of Basketball Operations at Howard. Mike Wilbon joined Kevin as well to talk NBA Playoffs and a lot more.   For all your football betting needs: DCRELOAD at MyBookie for a 50% Deposit Match   Right now, buy one prescription pair and get 20% off any additional prescription pairs at WarbyParker.com/[Sheehan   So if you are looking to make Mother’s Day perfect, or just want to impress your friends and family with an epic meal next time you host, go to www.GOLDBELLY.com and get free shipping and 20% off your first order with promo code sheehan.   Chime is not just smarter banking, it is the most rewarding way to bank. Head to www.Chime.com/SHEEHAN. It only takes a few minutes to sign up. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Sheehan Show. Here's Kevin. I've got two guests with me on the show today. John Wall next segment, Mike Wilbon, after that. The show's presenting sponsor, as always,

Window Nation, 86690 Nation or WindowNation.com, if you need new windows. Rookie Minicamp got underway today. It'll last through the weekend. unless they cut it short. All of the rookie draft picks signed and in. So that's good news. Dan Quinn spoke before they had their first workout.

I'm not going to play anything that he said about any of the rookies. It's stuff we've heard before. But he did speak about what he's learned so far about his two new coordinators, offensive coordinator David Blow and defensive coordinator, Durante Jones. You'll hear what the coach said about both of them coming up in about 15 minutes or so. There was some NFL news today. Good news as it relates to the referees contract that's been in negotiation. No need for replacement referees when the season opens up.

The NFL Referees Association ratified with the league a new seven-year collective bargaining deal. That wraps up the negotiation. and that ends the possibility of a referee work stoppage and the need for replacement referees. That's good news. Meantime, the league also announced today the full release of the schedule will happen this coming Thursday night, May 14th. Now, we're going to get some key matchups before the full release on Thursday night. All of the international games, including Washington's international game in London, will be announced on Wednesday morning.

And prior to that, each of the NFL's key television partners, Fox, CBS, ESPN, maybe even Amazon, will announce at least one key matchup starting on Monday. So I think we'll have, you know, a game announced on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday with all the international games, and then we'll get the full release of the schedule on Thursday night. This from Patrick, Patrick writes, Kevin, I love your mock schedule. I had a thought about something that the NFL might consider and wanted to know if you think it's possible.

We have a road game at Jacksonville this year. Could we play consecutive weeks in London hosting one week and playing the Jags the next week? Patrick, yes, I thought of that possibility. because Jacksonville is actually hosting two games this upcoming season in London. And remember last year, the Vikings played a game in Dublin against the Steelers and then played the next week against the Browns in London. So they actually stayed there for two weeks. Jacksonville is staying for two weeks this year because they're playing back-to-back games in London.

By the way, for Jacksonville, you know what that means in terms of their home schedule? They're hosting two London games, hosting both of those games. They're the host team. They're not the road team in either one of those two games. That means because they had eight home games this year, the AFCs got eight home games. They'll only have six actual games in Jacksonville this year in the regular season. But Patrick, great idea. Yes, I thought about it.

I didn't include it in my mock schedule. sure it's a possibility. Washington could go, you know, one week against Jacksonville, the next week, hosting the game against, say, Indianapolis. That's what I had mocked. Or they'll just go over there, host their own game, and come back home. But, yeah, it's a possibility for sure. All right.

Do you guys remember this play? Third and five. Kineken, in trouble again. He's able to escape. Keeps the play alive. Of course down, dies with the pileout, is he in? Is he in? Yes, touchdown, one run.

What a hit by Heineke. Of course you remember that night. A weird night, for sure. That whole season was weird. That was January 9th, 2021, the first round of the NFL playoffs. That game in Landover at then FedEx Field, a game played between the Washington football team. and the Tampa Bay Buccaneers with no fans.

You heard Mike Tariko on the call, and it just was strange that football season. That sports calendar, once sports resumed, but on that particular play late in the third quarter, third down in five, the quarterback of the Washington football team that night, was under duress. He found a lane, took off,

reach the ball out, it touched the pylon, touchdown Washington football team. 18 to 16 was the score in that moment. They went for two, they missed. They would go on to lose that playoff game, 31 to 23. But on that night was born, kind of a cultish hero, his name, Taylor Heineke. Taylor Heineke retired yesterday from the NFL. and he announced it via social media, writing the following. For 25 years, I had the pleasure to play this great sport of football.

It has taught me a lot not only about myself, but about life as well. Many ups and downs throughout the years, but the ups outweighed the downs tenfold. Never in my wildest dreams did I think I would have been able to live this life. Thank you to all who have supported me in this journey. Thank you to all who have believed in me. and thank you to those who gave me the opportunity to live out my childhood dream. Excited for this next chapter of my life and always go skins. I love the ending to that note from Taylor Heineke.

So let me begin with this because I know some of you never thought, and still to this day don't think that I appreciated or liked Taylor Heineke. Heineke much. That's just not true. That's like the people that have said about my love for Kirk Cousins, he's always felt like Kirk Cousins was an elite quarterback. No, I've never said that. It was never true that I didn't like Taylor Heineke. I actually really liked a lot about him. What I didn't like was the conversation around him. Those of you who thought that he was the answer and that the team should just drop what they're doing. They've got their quarterback, just build around him. By the way, it was the same conversation, you know, a few years later with Sam Howell. I just didn't see Taylor

Heineke ever as a legitimate full-time starting quarterback in the National Football League, not in terms of a guy that would be leading a team to great success. I loved him as a competitor. I said about him over and over again. He's fearless. He's a gamer. I love that about him. I love athletes like him that overachieve, that get the most out of what they have. And especially when they do it like he did it, which was he believed that he belonged.

There was zero fear. He was perfect to be a backup quarterback because he was never going to be nervous about coming into a game. He did one thing exceptionally well. He was very good off schedule. You know, he had very good feel in the pocket. He was able to scramble to throw the ball, scramble, to run. He just didn't have a true starting quarterback NFL arm. He was a backup. That's what he was. And the conversation about him just got to be at times too much. I know it was too much. I know it was too much. for a lot of you, but there was a percentage of our fan base that really thought legitimately he was the real deal. And, you know, that sort of delusion, or at least that's the way I saw it,

especially when it became so loud and overwhelming on social media or when I would take calls, whatever it was, it just, you know, I think led people like me to push back and say things like, are you blind? Like, are you that beaten down by the Snyder era? And it's okay, because a lot of us were, that you actually think the team should sign Taylor Heineke to a long-term deal and build around him? That just wasn't who he was.

And I think, I'm not saying that the majority of fans felt that way. It was definitely a minority percentage. But it was 20, 25% of you people out there. And you were loud about how much. you believed that he was the guy. You know, Scott Turner, who's now come on the show, what, two or three times at this point? I remember asking him, I think the first time he was on about Taylor Heineke, because Scott Turner was the one that had experience with Taylor Heineke and Carolina

and suggested to, you know, the Marty Party and to Ron Rivera, hey, we should sign this guy because we were having so many quarterback issues in 2020. And Scott Turner loved it. him, loved him as a person, loved him as a competitor, but even Scott Turner said, yeah, no, he wasn't going to be a long-term starting quarterback answer. But the guy that brought him back to the NFL was Scott Turner, because when Scott Turner found Taylor Heineke, he was living on his sister's couch, taking derivatives courses in an NBA program.

He's incredibly smart, and that was another part of him that I loved. But look, beyond the delusional, you know, Heinecke Hivers or whatever they called themselves, the bottom line is his story was a good one. It was a really good one. I mean, to come off the couch as he's heading towards, I don't know, being a financial analyst on Wall Street or doing something like that, probably making an S load of money eventually, and maybe that's his next calling.

But, you know, Scott Turner calls him, and before he knows it, he's starting in a playoff game because Alex Smith can't go after Alex Smith led them remember in the season finale against the Eagles to the division title at 7 and 9. And that Tampa playoff game, I mean, he was outstanding. 306 passing yards, 46 rushing yards. They were in the game. I never thought, though, that they were really a threat to win the game because defensively, they gave up that night, 507 yards.

and Chris Godwin had five dropped passes. I mean, Tampa could have named their number for the most part. But Heineke kept them in that game. He was outstanding. And so, of course, they come back, you know, in 2021. And he's not going to be the starting quarterback. He's going to be the backup quarterback to Fitzpatrick, but Ryan Fitzpatrick gets hurt in the opener that year.

and here comes Taylor here comes Taylor Heineke again and remember that week two game back in 2021 they beat the Giants 30 to 29 on Thursday night football and he threw for 336 yards in that game 336 yards remember that game Dexter Lawrence jumped off sides

on a missed field goal by Dustin Hopkins Hopkins got another shot made the field goal. And look, 2021, he had some good moments. I mean, they were a two and six football team, if you recall, heading into the buy week. They came out of

that by week, and they played good football. They beat Tampa at home. They had that 19-play 80-yard drive at the end to put the game away. Heineke was great in that game. The running game was great. And then, you know, they really started to run the football exceptionally well with

Antonio Gibson, you know, over the next few weeks. And then COVID absences hit the team hard, and they plummeted to seven and ten. And then, of course, 2022 was the Carson Wentz year. And Carson Wentz gets hurt, and here comes Taylor Heineke again. And there were a couple of memorable games. He had that third down throw to beat the Packers. He had that moonball that Terry McCorn came down with against Indianapolis. Now, he had made a really good play to keep that drive alive. on a fourth down. Then they went to Philadelphia on a Monday night and he drew that late hit on Brandon Graham to seal the game, big upset on Monday night football. And all of a sudden,

before you knew it, they were seven and five heading into the month of December in strong playoff position. But they tied the Giants in the Meadowlands. They lost to the Giants at home on Sunday night football. There were turnovers. Heineke played okay, but not Graham. really played poorly against San Francisco. They lost to the 49ers to drop to 7-7-1. And then that big game on New Year's Day, 2023 against Cleveland at home, Rivera turned to Wentz.

They lost the game. They were eliminated from the postseason. And then remember, that week before the season finale against Dallas, Rivera was going to turn to Heineke again. But Heineke suggested that Sam Howl play, and then the whole Sam Hal Hivers became a thing into the following season. But I mean, just an absolute battler

and a really solid backup quarterback who got a lot of opportunities. I think that 20-22 team that was 7 and 5 really was led by its defense. That was the season in which they finished 7th in DVOA defense. but he had moments. He did.

I got this from Kenny. Kenny wrote, Kevin, I know you never loved Heineke and had no belief in him as our savior. But you have to admit that he's one of the most popular players in franchise history. Yeah, Kenny, he's not. Okay. He's not one of the most popular players in franchise history. He was one of the most popular Washington football team players.

in the two years that they were the Washington football team. There's no doubt he cultivated a group of the fan base that fell in love with how he played. And then there was this from Barstool DMV. I read this on radio and many of you told me that this was kind of a joke. I'm not sure if it was or wasn't, but they wrote, congratulations on retirement, Taylor Heineke. Thank you for the most iconic moment of the Washington football team. era, and it's that touchdown run in the playoff game.

And one of the most legendary performances in team history. Yeah, I don't think so. I don't think so. But, yeah, I think one of those players that won't be forgotten. You know, Colt McCoy's a player that's not going to be forgotten for a few moments that he had, like that Monday night in Dallas. But best of luck to Taylor Heineke, I don't know if he's got a career. if he's got a career in broadcasting,

but I would assume that this guy is going to end up being very successful. He is smart. He's a badass competitor. I don't know if he completed his MBA or not, but he's going to do very well in the private sector, I'm sure. All right. I want to finish up this opening segment with two Dan Quinn sound bites on both of his news. coordinators. Here's what he said about what he's learned so far about new defensive coordinator

Durante Jones. I think from a leadership standpoint, I'll start there first. Man, is he organized, like impeccably organized? He's got a very detailed thought and approach to how things go from the way he meets with the defensive staff to the way he meets, you know, with the player. So I like that approach that there's just, you know, he hits every single step along the way as a player, you like that because he's thorough. He goes through all the steps. It's not gray. There's a lot of clarity. Even though at times it can seem complex to what we're doing, there's actually a lot of clarity that goes with it. So that's the part from a leadership standpoint that I've seen so far, like the extreme organization and clarity of the teaching. So I had this thought when I heard

Dan Quinn talk about Durante Jones today that I had heard that before. Now, I went to went back and looked to see if he had ever said anything similar about Joe Whit Jr. Because my memory is that he talked a lot about Joe Whit Jr. being a very detailed and highly organized coach. And that was something that he really liked about Joe Whit Jr. I will tell you, I did not find a transcript where he said that about Joe Whit Jr. but I only looked back in the early portion of 2024 shortly after he hired Joe Whit Jr. But I'm not concerned that I've heard this before. It could be just the thing that impresses Quinn about coaching candidates,

that they have to be super detailed, super organized, and that's the compliment that he paid to Durante Jones, is just how prepared he seems to be and how clear he seems to be. Joe Wit Jr. did not lack the ability to communicate. That's for sure. But his players didn't communicate very well when they hit the field.

Now, this is what he said about David Blow and what he's learned so far about David Blow, the offensive coordinator. I think it's fun to see him install the whole thing. You know, in front of the room and identity of what we'd like to be of the different teaching. So there's quite a bit of new terminology, you know, for the players that, you know, we're here from 24 and 25. So to see the different things that we're emphasizing in him right in the front of it all, it's been excellent. One of the things I've been impressed by him is his ability and the staff to really function together.

Like our receiver group as a coaching staff, they don't think you could come into a better space. than to learn from Bobby and Wes and Andre, like the amount of experience the three of them have together in the National Football League, it's incredible. And so they're able to share different things, different points of view, vibe off one another. As a coach, that's the type of environment that I'm looking for to see their vibe together. So that might be just one small example of him listening and also allowing some of the guys to make their imprint on the offense as well. So nothing super significant in what Dan Quinn just said. about David Blow, there was just one small takeaway that I had. And that was Quinn emphasizing the experience that David Blow has at his disposal.

He mentioned Bobby Engram, the wide receivers coach. He mentioned Wes Welker. He mentioned Andre Coleman, the assistant wide receivers coach. And he said, you know, for Blow, the experience that he has around them with guys like those three guys, those guys are able to share. their experience. They're able to share different things, share different points of view, vibe off of one another as coaches, and that's the type of environment that he's looking for. So yeah, that's it. I mean, nothing earth-shattering. We know that David Plow is inexperienced.

He's inexperienced as a play caller. He's inexperienced as an offensive coordinator leading an offensive football team. You know, having position coaches report to him, position coaches with more experience than he has. Yeah, that's it. Nothing important. Let's get to John Wall. We'll do that after these words from a few of our sponsors. Okay, guys, I'm about to tell you about the most incredible, unforgettable gift you can get mom this Mother's Day. Have you heard of Goldbelly?

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not counting Baltimore, you'd be on that Mount Rushmore. I think Elvin Hayes and Wes Unseldon some order would be one too, but you'd be in the conversation for one of the next two spots, for sure. John, by the way, was named last week, President of Basketball Operations at Howard University. Howard won their first ever NCAA tournament game this past March. They beat UMBC in a 16 versus 16 game, and John is taking over as president of basketball operations. I want to talk to you about your new gig at Howard, and I also want to talk to you about you representing the Wizards on Sunday for the draft lottery. but I want to start with the NBA playoffs

because I've been thinking about you the last two and a half weeks and really wanted to get you on this show just to talk about these playoffs so far and I'll start with this do you think anybody can beat Oklahoma City four times out of seven or are we just watching a march to a second straight title?

Easier said it done to be honest I don't know I mean I feel like this Burry did a great job in the regular season, but you know the regular season doesn't really mean nothing. You go to the playoffs, but you also got to give Tim Wilson credit. I have the Spurs winning that series, and I think that would be a great playoff series against Spurs and OKC.

And I think the key is, you know what I mean, Jaylon Williams coming back to win that series against Spurs. I think that would be a great, great playoff series. So you actually like the Spurs if they get by Minnesota, which I think is going to be not very easy. I mean, it's a one-one right now. Do you give Minnesota a chance to win this series? We've got to give them a lot of chances.

I mean, they have issues going on right now. I mean, DeVichita's O, got a hamstring came back last game. You don't know about next game. Man's dealing with the knee. He's not fully healthy. So, yeah, kind of a little bit, but not too much. So, but you think San Antonio would beat O KC and O. Western Conference final.

Yeah, I do. I think I have a chance. Without Jay Lewis, I do. Is there a series right now, John, that you're enjoying more than any other? The series right now is going to be the playing in Tim Woods. I mean, Tim Woods stole game one. Spurs came back down at the game two. I think that's the fun series right now.

Cleveland's down 2-0. Got it to what they do when they get back home. Yeah, I'm enjoying San Antonio, Minnesota as well. You know, this time of year, typically the playoffs, as you said, you know, different, it's almost a different sport at times compared to the regular season. And there are players every year that's, you know, rise to a level that maybe you don't necessarily expect as a fan anyway. Is there somebody here over the first two and a half weeks that has opened up your eyes as to how good of a player he is and maybe you weren't expecting it?

The one player I'm going to talk about that he's special but he's being super dominant right now is K cutting him got to give him a lot of credit a lot of praise right now Yeah he was he was great last night So you didn't

So you're giving him a lot of credit But is it a revelation for you You didn't necessarily think he had that in him No never said that part He does have it in him I just think he played the game at a high level The one question everybody had about Detroit is

who else can make plays outside of Kay Cunningham when he's double a team or don't have the ball in his hands but you got to give J.B. a lot of credit for what he's doing over there. And Kaye's putting in the high level, made he's player at the MVP level right there for them.

Yeah, no doubt. I did not realize especially offensively. I didn't realize Jaden McDaniels was this good. I mean, I know how good. of a defender he is. But I think this postseason,

for me, that's been the biggest revelation that he is an ascending, perhaps superstar. Do you agree or disagree? I wouldn't take superstar, but I feel like it would be a star in his league. I think the difference is where A man went down, Devin Chizzo went down.

He had to step up and do a lot of things differently. But like you say, he's a pest officially, but he's almost, what, 6-9, 16? he gets to that mayor, right, nobody's blocking his shot so he's able to make plays. You know, back to round one sticking with Minnesota for a moment. I talked a lot about and have talked a lot about on my show, John, that Yokic not getting past a depleted Minnesota team with, you know, Anthony Edwards missing the last two and a half games,

Di Vincenzo out, Desumo missing, you know, game six. I didn't think it was a great look for Yokic. you know, he wasn't very good in the series. I thought he was okay in game six. Defensively, not that I had high expectations, but he was particularly bad throughout the series. He has not been past the second round since they won the title in 2023.

I'm wondering if you think the opinion on Yokic as an all-time great is changing. It might be changing, but You got a thing he said depleted Minnesota team, but at the same time, Aaron Gordon is a very, very key piece to what the Nuggets do. I think you made it play one game with two games in the whole series, and also Payton Watson, a guy that played very great

when guys got hurt early in the year. He didn't play the whole playoffs. So those are two key pieces that are missing for the Nuggets also. No doubt. I mean, and Gordon was a massive miss. I just think that, into that game six, I'm like, if you're Yokic and you truly are one of the greatest 10 to 15 players of all time and in the conversation for one of the greatest three, four centers of all time,

you got to win that game, you've got to win game seven, you've got to carry your team to at least the second round. And so I personally, and I'm a big Yokic fan, I was disappointed that it didn't happen and I thought it might start to change the view of him. I agree with that. Yeah, you definitely supposed to win that game, I thought they were going to go to seven. I thought they would close it out at home. But at the same time, if I know Yolkish could beat me and dominate the game, other guys got to step up and make shots also. They didn't do a very good job with that.

No, Jamal Murray was terrible in that sixth game. Does he play in Denver next year, Yokic? Yeah, I think he's thinking. I don't feel him going. I think the tough question is, we know how special Angorn is, and he fished a mold, what they're trying to do. But every year, there's always a hamstring or a cap injury.

And that kind of messes up what they have going for their team. What do they need to add? What would you add if you're in Denver right now to keep Yokic and to put yourself back into the conversation in the West with San Antonio in Oklahoma City? I don't know. I mean, I didn't need another guy. I don't know any of another go-to guy,

just in case and going might miss Tom or might. not be healthy in the playoffs. They hurts them. Not giving Yolkid's a pass and not having a great season. I mean, not having a great playoffs. Jamal and Mary had a bad last couple of games, but

Aaron Goan is a caters. He's a four that can shoot the ball, make plays, catch a lot of them, and go back door. But they didn't have them. That hurt a lot. What about adding Kauai

to Yokic in Denver? good night would you say they had they had Kaua good night good night is in they'd win it good night means

they got a closer yeah me outside of yoga to get more and bird picking world which we know it's fine one of the bad duo

and they get in the picking world situation we have a go-to close it and a guy that can lock up on the other end give me the big move in July

that we'll be talking about Have you been thinking about, we always get something that we don't expect in July. Is there a big move you'd like to see in July? It's not one out like, but it's one that might happen. I think Jaylen Brown might be moved. To Milwaukee? I didn't say that, but he might be moved. All right.

Would you, I mean, I don't know why Jalen Brown would want to leave, and as a Celtics fan, I would never want him to leave. if I were a Celtics fan. Agreed. All right. Going back to 2010, did you remember having a preference on who won the draft lottery

because you were the consensus number one in that draft? Do you remember the draft lottery what you were doing and if you had a preference for a team? No, I didn't have a preference. I didn't thought the worst team would I would give the new one pick, which was probably be the New Jersey Nets at the time,

but I didn't have a preference. I was at rest of the piece of my old agent, Dan Fayehouse, and that's where I was watching the lottery at. When you were the draft lottery rep for the Wizards back in 2011, and we fell to six, who did you want Ernie to pick? You didn't want Jan Vesley, did you? I won the Clay Thompson at the time being. Did you really?

Did you tell him that? No, I didn't really have too much say so back then. just get my footway to leave. Yeah, right. So Clay Thompson was the guy that you wanted. Interesting. He ended up, if you have me, if you have me at the time being, right. That's a knockdown, knock down, knock down, in a two-way player, the two-guard position. So that would have been perfect next to me. That would have been a hell of a combination. No doubt. That would have been. Do you have any good luck charms that you'll have on you Sunday? probably just wore my neckles with my mom face on it.

That's my good look charm. If we get number one, who do you want? If we get number one, I love AJ the best and Darren Peterson. I think for the Wizards for having Tray Young AD, I think Darren Peterson fits best next to that mold. So that's what I would take. Who does he remind you of? Is there an NBA comp that Darren Peterson remind you of?

And no, I didn't think he's a little methodical and play the game the right way he don't force it and he could play without the basketball so you do a lot of watching Kate Cunningham last night because I didn't think Cade Cunningham

when he came out. I didn't see it you just use the word that I always use with Darren Peterson. There's a methodical way about him in which he gets to his shots and the space he creates. There's a little bit of Demar Derozen in him. There's a little bit of Kauai in him. And I thought watching Kade last night that there was a little bit of Kade Cunningham

and him. Do you see that comp or not? No, I could Kay's like a 6-7 point guard. Or the damn two, like a 6-62 guard. Let him get the right way and do what you can do to get their point. But he scored very efficient and the way he walks to it anytime. All right. Let's finish up with tell everybody about the job you just accepted. at Howard as the president of basketball operations. What are you going to be doing, and why did you decide to do it?

I decided to do it because I see it as opportunity for me to share my knowledge of the game, also to learn behind-the-scenes process with basketballops. I mean, eventually one day, I want to be a GM of the NBA or something like that. So I see the opportunity for me to understand what the game is about behind the scenes. deal with the players, deal with the transfer for the deal with NIL, all those type of things. I think you'd be a great GM. I think you'd be an excellent coach as well.

That's interesting because I was going to say, does this lead to you wanting to be a coach or a GM? So the GM path is the path that you want to take? Yeah, yeah. I would never say I don't want to be a coach. If the opportunity comes, you might give it a shot. But that's time I'm an ultimate goal. a maximum goal is trying to be a GM one day for sure.

When you think of yourself as a GM, potentially, what would make you a great general manager in the NBA? Well, I know the game very well. I have a great IQ. I think most importantly, when you're trying to put a team together, you've got to understand just because somebody else is not, it doesn't mean they're going to mess together with the other person.

So just figuring out what players that put together how to do things. I always appreciate your time. I wish you the best of luck. Enjoy the rest of the playoffs and good luck on Sunday. Thanks for doing this. Thank you. Thank you so much. John Wall, everybody.

Mike Wilbon next after these words from a few of our sponsors. I'll be honest. At first, I was skeptical about ordering plants online, like, is this thing actually going to show up alive? But that's what surprised me most about fast-growing trees. They don't just ship plants. They've built a whole system to protect them until they arrive at your door. Every plant is handpicked and carefully inspected,

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That's extraordinary when you are not even halfway through the second round of the NBA playoffs. The second choice right now is San Antonio at plus 420. If you want to bet the NBA playoffs, the NHL playoffs, next week's preekness, MyBooky is the place to do it. Go to mybooky.ag or mybooky.com and use my promo code, DC Reload, DCR-E-L-O-A-D, and MyBooky will give you a 50% cash bonus when you get there. Again, mybooky.com or mybooky.orgie.orgie. DC reload as a promo code. Joining me right now, Mike Wilbonn. And speaking of those NBA playoffs, I'll start with this. Give me the series that

you're enjoying the most right now. Minnesota and San Antonio. I mean, because Wemby is my favorite player to watch. And Minnesota is not afraid of him. They're just not. And so they're willing to go at him, which is how he gives 12 blocks. I mean, 12 blocks, yes. First of all, it tells you about the shot blocker. It also tells you about the team he's playing against. And they won that game. Minnesota did. So that's my favorite series so far. You know, if Embedded played, you know, in one of these first two games, maybe that would be, but so far Minnesota-San-Money. Yeah, I'm totally with you on that. I think the fearlessness of Minnesota in that game one. And you saw it against Denver, too.

They are really good defensively. I think they can win the series, do you? I think they have to win tonight. I think the pressure's on Minnesota now. Yeah, I think they win the series. I'm one of the few people who, despite my complete obsession with the Spurs, I don't feel they can win this year. I just, there's no history of that except for three people, Russell, Magic, and Duncan.

That's it. Everybody else suffers. I don't count great jar. Jordan, Kobe, Bird, you know, LeBron, you know, Isaiah, they've all, they all in years and years with just, you know, just crushing playoff defeat. And I think that Antonio's due for one of those just before. Before they ascend, they've got to have that. That's my sort of always in my take on the league and covering it.

I don't think they can win this year. That means, yeah, they could lose to OKC the next round if they get there. But Minnesota's worthy, man. Minnesota has been in the conference final the last two years. We're the opponent, and people don't pay them enough attention. You know, it's interesting what you said, and I know you've said it before, and we've talked about it before. But last year, I thought it was too early for Oklahoma City until I started to watch the postseason develop, and then it became pretty apparent that it was going to be awfully difficult to beat them four out of seven.

And they really only had the one year, the previous year, as playoff experience. So I thought, I think that's the example really in my. lifetime of somebody getting there prior to when past teams would have gotten there and won it? They got there earlier, but they suffered. I mean, that year they lost.

They thought that first year they were in. And by the way, this is San Antonio's first year. Yes, I know. This is their first. Right. He ain't winning your first time. I mean, I just don't see that. But, but O. K.C. had that come

up, and was it a game seven, they lost? Yeah, it was. They lost a doubt. Allison 6, I think. I think it was six. Six. Okay. That's right. I didn't get the 7th. And so, okay, you know, and Wimby was just distraught after that law. You mean SGA was?

I mean, SGA was. Yeah. I'm projecting already. Right. SGA was. And we've seen Wimby be distraught after losing in the Olympics and losing in the cup tournament, the bogus cup tournament. Right. But

that stuff, he to lose it. And you can see it on his face. You can see he agonizes. And SGA did that. And SGA also just, it wasn't like he was 24 years old and just rolling through this. So, you know, he had

he had a couple of tough times. And I, man, I didn't think Oklahoma City could win this year, Kevin. I thought the league is too good. But the two of the teams I had potentially beating OKC are out.

Boston and Denver in reverse order. Yeah. And Denver is going to have to be broken up with a team. They're going to have to, you know, it's not going to just be tweaking. I think we're going to see major changes there in terms of players, not just games and just, you know, David Adelman, who I like as a young coach. But anyway, I just, I think that, you know, San Antonio, as they're irresistible. How do you not want to watch San Antonio as often as you can't?

I just don't see them getting through both Minnesota and OKC. Yeah. I mean, I was going to ask you if you saw OKC losing four out of seven to anybody. And it sounds like... No, not now. Not now. Yeah. I don't either.

Not now. I mean, I mean, the only team, you know, okay, could they lose four or seven to the Knicks? They could. They could. I don't know that the Knicks, let me see the Knicks, you know, on the road tomorrow at tonight at Philly. Let me see what they got. If the Knicks continue along this beatdown path or just winning convincingly, then I might change my mind on that, but I got to see it.

Yeah. You know, I want to like the Cowboys. They don't get better to the doubt. I want to go back to Denver because I actually thought before the postseason that Denver would have a shot against San Antonio, but they're not there. But before that, just real quickly with the JJ Reddick complaining that came out of last night, he said about, LeBron, he said, in his lifetime, he's never seen a superstar get a worse whistle. Do you agree with that? No, but I don't pay any attention to it.

It might not be wrong. LeBron's a big, the shack. Shack would be the name that pops up immediately. That got the worst whistle? Yeah, yeah, it would be Shaquil. Who had people hanging off of his name. Yes, right. I was there, court-clide.

So I'm not putting LeBron in that category, but, I mean, Dick Reddick's, first of all, that's what he's supposed to do. He's supposed to take up for a star player, especially that star player. But the Lakers are just a whiny, a whiny outfit. You know, Lucas calms up all the time,

looking at the defense, you know, get back on the defense, and you would think, I hope that hasn't rubbed off too much on LeBron. You know, just play. And that's not why. That's not in the top ten reasons why. they can't be. No.

Oklahoma City. No, good. Not as good. Not as resource for it. They're not as talented. They're not smart, quite frankly. And so, you know, I don't want to hear from the Lakers. I get what JJ was doing.

I'm not, I'm not criticizing JJ Reddick. Sure. For putting that out there trying to, the next day. We just saw that. Chris Finch did a fine job. Right. And a much smarter job of that a day earlier with the block shop. You know, I thought, I thought Finch did a good.

a really Pat Riley-esque, Phil Jackson, Chuck Daly-esque job of trying to help his guys on an off day. It was calculated. Jay-Js came off as whiny. And it was like, you know, really, I don't want to hear whining from the Lakers. If you want to strategically tell me you think something's going on, you've got to package you better than that. I mean, I said on radio this morning, can you imagine how insufferable they would be if Luca were out there? because I think he might be for me the all-time number one complainer on the court.

Yep. He's in the tight, and he's on the Mount Rushmore. And the thing is, but the thing is, you know, Luca wouldn't help them against OKC. No.

He wouldn't. No. They went and they had won 10 straight. They go to Oklahoma City. Lucas's there before he pulls up lame, and they're down 31 at the half. Let me see it again. At the half.

So, Luca, you know, Luca, they hunt Luca. You know, privately, if you talk about what it is, the OKC wants to do, I mean, there are lesser teams and lesser players who hunt Luca and get away with it. I mean, they haunt him because at some point he's going to stop playing defense and start whining, and then you've got him. And OKC starts off like that, and they can also, also, OKC can get in his jock.

and they do. And they have multiple players, Lou Dort, Wallace, J-dub, J-dub, Shay. They got multiple people, they can say to Luca,

let's go, pal, let's go. And he's not going to come back at you defensively because he doesn't, because he's a, he's a, he's a D-level player

that way, which is why he's never going to get higher than top three for me on the third on an MVP now. By the way, just mentioning Luca on the Mount Rushmore of all-time whiners and complainers,

give me, off the top of your head, off the top of your head, who else would be in that conversation for all-time Mount Rushmore complainers? Because one immediately came to mind for me. I don't want to go too far back. Of active players, I mean, I know me active, of recent players. I'm sure I think on the good teams that matter. Celtics, Lakers. I'm not going to put Kobe or Paul Pierce in there.

I'm not going to put the Great Ray Allen in there who didn't do that. Oh, Kevin, you got me. Well, the first one that came to mind for me was Rashid Wallace. Like, Wallace would have to be on the Mount Rush. Oh, I don't count Rashid. Yes, I don't count him. You don't count him. What about Dremont?

What about Dremont? Dremont is just, I don't think of him as a complainer. He's just an irritant when it comes to a official. I mean, he's just, I don't think of it as complaining. He's just combative with the officials, and I would walk out if I was officiating that night when the niceties are being thrown around. And I would say, Dre, I'm going to give you one right here before the anthem. You got one more.

Yeah. And I wouldn't care what the third, what the five-minute report said. I would walk out on the court that way. Draymond is one of the all-time of, you know, of combative people when it comes to the officials. LeBron LeBron would be in consideration. LeBron would be in consideration. Yeah.

And he didn't start his career that way, but he has become one with the Lakers. He really has been. And I think that when you were with Miami, between Pat Riley, Dwayne Wade, and Chris Bosch, who just don't, they're not about that foolishness.

That LeBron couldn't do that. The culture didn't sustain that. But he does with the Lakers, and that wasn't Magic's way. No. I don't, again, you know, I don't know where he I don't know where this has come from

but I was hoping I'm hoping that Luke hasn't rubbed off too much on LeBron in that context. Am I right that Kareem would have to be in consideration? Yeah, he was he was like you know Kareem had palms up a lot too

because because not to me as a child who grew up with Kareem not in the 70s but in the 80s when it became more physical. Right. And the league let go, Kareem was not accustomed to being officiated that way. And so I give him that.

He had to wind up playing against, remember, the early iteration of the bad boy pittles, Kareem had to deal with that. With Bouda Edwards and Bill Laibier and all that, and Kareem had played. I mean, Kareem came in the league in 1970. And that wasn't the way Willis Reed played, and West unselled, even though West was physical. That wasn't the way the games were officiated. You know, Kareem had that on the back of his career like LeBron. It's a bad look for LeBron.

He's too great. He's too great. You know, actually, in just thinking about that era, one of my all-time favorite players, and I think very much a criminally underrated power forward of all time. But Elvin Hayes was... Elvin. He was a constant complainer. Constant complainer.

Yes, he was. Yes, he was. All right. So back to Denver for a moment. I've been saying on my show, really before the playoffs began, and I had Tim Legler on right at the beginning of the postseason. And I said, I think this is a big postseason for Yokic. He hasn't been past the second round since winning it in 23.

And we thought when they won it in 23, that was going to be the first of a few, you know, at the very least. And to go out against a depleted Minnesota team, Minnesota earned it. They were the better team. And I know Aaron Gordon was out and Peyton Watson were out as well. But I'm wondering if you, you're truly an NBA historian, do you think his legacy is taking a bit of a hit, taking on some water a little bit right now? Yep.

Yeah, it is. He's got some time to still do it. They've got to retool their team around him. That's why I said initially, Kevin, the start of our conversation here, Denver's got to retool. and I don't want to just hear about the coach. I've got to see, like, I can't imagine Aaron Gordon being back there. I don't know about Jamal Murray.

So you got some people, you got some players out there. If you're Denver, why wouldn't you call Boston and initiate conversations about Jaylon Brown? Why wouldn't you do that? You should. And so, but Denver's got to do something not to let the window close on Joe. You know, I heard you say, I think on Get Up, that every July, you know, you're somewhere and your phone starts blowing up and you're like, Kevin Durant guy, he's playing where? Like, it feels that way.

When you said that, I'm like, yes, every July, it seems like there's something that floors us. I know it's hard to predict, but give me, Yokic could be one of those possibilities in July. Nah, nah, no, he won't be. Okay. It's probably one of the possibilities. But anybody else on his team could, and they're not as huge as Joker, but like I said, Murray could be one, and Murray's been a vastly underrated player in terms of offensive.

I agree. But Jaylen Brown, Jaylen Brown, listen, it would stun me if it was Tatum. It would stun me if it was Tatum. Because I think Tatum is the beloved Celtic and Jaylen Brown is not. He's not beloved, not the way Tatum is. So, you know, it wouldn't surprise you to see Jalen Brown. Yonis, obviously. What about one of my favorite players who is not a one.

He's like a 1A because he sees him do it and go to the finals. Well, he wasn't a one that year. Is Devin Booker? But I don't think, again, Devin Booker's beloved in Arizona. I mean, right now he's on a pay. He might just be underneath Larry Fitzgerald a little bit. So that would be a stunner. I don't see that happening with Ant Man.

I don't see that happening. Are you telling me that in Phoenix, Devin Booker is like number one or number two behind Larry Fitzgerald in terms of what? In terms of very recent. Okay, recent. If we go back. Yeah. I'm talking about recent. Okay, okay.

Last 10 years. Yeah, I mean, I was thinking about Nash. It's all time, by the way. I was thinking about Kurt Warner. All right. Yeah. Yeah, but Kurt wasn't there very long. Fair.

I mean, Larry Fitz played his whole career there. Right. And Kurt Warner was there for a couple of years. He did get into a Super Bowl. Yeah. But, you know, Warner, listen, Warner, people, when you walk through an airport, people are, you know, hey, Kurt, hey, Kurt, hey, Kurt,

there's no bad feeling about Kurt Warner, but that's not Larry Fitzgerald. It's not Steve Nash. Yep. And Devin Booker's played his whole career there. So that's a different level, Kev. That's a different level to me. And Booker, man, I mean, you got to the finals, but it's been five years.

And so I don't know what they're thinking is. But I think we're going to see in the NBA, I think we're going to see some moving and shaking this summer. I think the Celtics would be insane to move on from Jalen Brown. I don't know. They won one, and they've been there. They've been close like five or six times. I don't know.

I just think he keeps getting better and better. Wait, wait, wait. We're not talking about playing. Some of how fit. And where there's smoke, they're usually fire. I'm not fit with Tatum. That thing is, look, I'm not saying they don't, I'm not saying they're an Elvin and West.

I'm not saying that. Because they don't seem to be, that doesn't seem to be the case at all. But like that whole thing, stupid little stuff with Jaylon Brown's podcast or, Twitter, you know, twitching or whatever that's like that. You love this. You love that part of it.

Yeah. They say, they say, well, why didn't Tatum have on, why didn't Jalen Brown have on Tatum? I don't know. I mean, in some way, you look at this stuff and say, well, why didn't you? What is that? Well, he wasn't available. No, not buying it.

Not buying it. I don't know what it is I'm not I'm not I'm not of this generation you know I don't understand it I'm sure that if Matthew heard me saying this he would have a reason you know that would make sense for today's young ballers

why everything happens it doesn't make sense to me but I would I want to trade Jalen Brown no no but Kevin Durant played on five teams James Hardin has played on five teams or more

and these so the most famous players in the league, Wilk got traded twice. You told that story either yesterday or today about Jack Ramsey. And you said, how about sitting down with Jack Ramsey? And Jack Ramsey says, let me tell you about the night we traded Wilp. So, yes, anything can happen. I traded. I traded Will.

Yeah. It's one of the stunning sentences you could ever hear. Dr. Jack. And what was the rest of that story? It was too long to go into it. Okay. It was just, you know, there was stuff that, you know, I mean, Will was,

Will was a genius level player. For people who don't nobody knows anymore, I'm, you know, I'm approaching 70, and I didn't get to see the best of Wilk. So I wasn't around for that either, but you did hear stories later. Like, you could sit and talk to Wes Unselled. about Wilts. Oh, my God, some of the stories would be so great. Will was difficult.

Will scored 100 points one night, and then he missed the bus, because he was doing whatever interviews that were, was probably six people covering the game in Hershey, Pennsylvania. Will didn't get his ride back, and so he had to ask the Knicks players

to let him ride back with them after he scored 100. This is a true story. It's not in any way exaggerated. it. And it's so great to hear those players tell those stories, which you could get if you sat around with Earl Monroe and West. And they had such great willed stories and such great trade stories. And that league is unlike any other. It's more social and it's different socially than any other league. And so it creates situations like Kevin Durant and James Harden where guys are brilliant players, first battle hall of famers. I was with Spencer Haywood the other night at Madison Square Garden.

Spencer Haywood in a suit at what is Spencer, 75? He's older. He looks like he could go out right now and score 20. Did you watch that ABA? Did you watch the ABA documentary on Netflix or whatever it was on? I haven't seen it. Oh, you have to watch it. You've got to watch it.

I know. And so Spencer Hayward, those guys were so engaging and outrageous on some levels. and not, not, I don't mean outrageous like John Moran. I mean, they were outspoken personalities at a different time in this country. And so you had guys like, well, and see, Jalen Brown fits better in that. That is not Jason Tatum. That is Jalen Brown. And I don't know that they're going to get the best out of that tag team if he saved there.

I'm shocked that they're not still playing, but I didn't see a plan B after they were missing all those threes. Yeah, because they're either incapable of having one, which I don't believe you're too smart, or they're unwilling. Their stubbornness, arrogance, and defiance says to me, get the hell off the stage. Get out. You care more about your plan than winning the game. So why should I care more about winning the game than you do?

Get out. Get out. Boston Celtics. Get the hell out. By the way, I'm sure you know this, but Wilt's 100-point night. in Hershey, Pennsylvania. Do you know who played a charity preliminary game prior to that game as a member?

It wasn't charity. It wasn't charity. Sonny Jurgensen. Exactly. Remember, they played semi-pro, Kevin. I thought it was a charity. I thought it was a charity game on behalf of the Eagles. He was with the Eagles.

I thought, I don't, well, okay, there were certain those that Sunny played in as well. Yeah. But they played semi-pro. They had to. They got a tiny bit of money. They had to. They had off-season jobs.

I think that, I mean, these guys were not making so much money. I'm pretty sure because Sonny was on with me so many times over the years when he was healthy. I'm pretty sure that one was with the Philadelphia Eagles as a charity game. But do you know how good of a basketball player, Sunny was, right? Yeah. Yeah, Sonny went to Duke to play basketball even more than football. Well, Carolina, I think he basically chose Duke to play football, but he could have gone to Carolina to play basketball.

He could have gone to either. Yeah. He could have gone to either. They basically did the end around. He was so great in football right away. Right. I don't know if it was the athletic director. The football coach was always the AD back then.

Yeah. And they said, Sonny, your basketball's over. Yeah. Remember the clips of Sonny whipping. Oh, yeah, behind the bat. A viral behind his back. Yeah. Okay, imagine what passes.

I mean, Sonny had a bit of Maravich in him. Oh. And he was a great basketball player, and it was great sitting around talking with Sonny also hung out with those guys. And he knew the Knicks and he knew the 76ers. And it's, you know, that was a day of multiple sports. Ron Jaworski would play pickup against these guys. They were great. The quarterbacks were all great.

They were all six, three and six four, which were back then made you a small forward. Right. And they were all great. They were all great basketball players. Sonny knew Jerry West well. Yeah. And they went to see those guys, and Sonny was there for the 100-point game.

Yeah. It's, you know, the store again, that league is more social. Sonny would have fit right in as probably an all-pro, at least an all-star in the NBA. And so, but, you know, you look at it when it comes summertime,

who's going to move? Would it surprise me if Kevin Durant is on the move? again? No, it wouldn't. You know, you've mentioned he and James Hardin together in a few times already, and I actually had on my list to ask you. I'll just preface it with, I've said this many times to my listeners. James Hardin, for me, is the least enjoyable superstar player of the last 15 years, almost in any sport to watch. And I, I, yeah, the last night was his 30th player. off game with more turnovers than made shots.

So my question to you is, why hasn't he figured out how to play in the postseason at 36 years old? Because this is his ceiling. I mean, he's not alone. I mean, in sports, you can go across sports. You can get people who did not excel in the Pope. I mean, that criticism was made of Barry Bond. Yeah.

That criticism was made of Greg Maddick. I mean, that that criticism was made of Ted Williams. Now, back then, you couldn't get, there was no playoffs, so you didn't get, you know. But he got to a couple of World Series, didn't he, and just lost him, he didn't win. I mean, that criticism, you know,

Hardin, this is as good as he is, he's great in the regular season. And it's not that he doesn't care as much, it's not that he's not trying. I mean, he was so critical of himself the other night, I felt for him. I did. He had some things happened that were beyond his control.

Chris Paul gets like a busted thumb when they're up three, two, on Golden State, and you can't convince me they're not going to win and get to the final. But Chris couldn't play game six and seven. And Hardin wasn't any good. I've had opposing coaches who were also opposing Hall of Fame players. Say to me, we're going to get to James tonight. Here we're going to do it. at 5.30.

And at 7.30, they do it. And this is as good. This is good as he is. Everybody, I mean, everybody doesn't get to full-scale, top of the mountain greatness. And Hardin keeps trying to climb it, and he keeps rolling down during May. Yes, he does. All right. Let's take a quick break.

I want to talk some Wizards draft lottery with Mike. We'll do that after these words from a few of our sponsors. Sunday, obviously, this is a big one. Wizards, if they were to end up finally getting some luck and end up on top of the June draft, who do you think they should take? By the way, you don't need to end up on top. I know. I know.

I tend to agree that. I don't know. I'm not sure that helps. I mean, they just had the number two pick, and we're still seeing where he comes in. But right now, he's playing more than the number one pick. Alex Sarah. Yeah. It's so a freshman in Atlanta who doesn't drop the best.

Rish, I say, yeah. So, but if they had number one, finish one, I would pick DeVance. Okay. But, but there, I think this thing is 15 deep.

There are people who are going to come, they're going to be like Halliburton. They're going to be like Shee Gilgis Alexander. Look, so the kid from Michigan, Landisport, that people have him mocked at 12 and 13. Right.

This is insane to me. I watched him in person. I want to see him multiple times. that kid is great as a college player. Are they upset because he's 22? Maybe. So is David Robertson. So what?

I'm... No, it could be a Janus. It could be a Kauai. It could be a Yokic draft where the next generational player comes from middle first to the second. Yeah. There's a kid from Mexico, six and nine in a wing and 230 pounds. Right. And he seems to be, if you watch the crude clips,

the kind of clips we were watching on Tony Koo Coach 40 years ago. He seems to be a monster. Well, I mean, you're not going to take him one. Your best bet may be to finish six and fall a little bit and take. Or to take or to take Landisborg. I don't want to hear you have to finish one, and you have finished lottery. I won the lottery. I don't want to hear it.

You've got to get the scouting right. And if it's true what I hear, the University of Illinois spent more on international scouting to the wizards, even though the wizards have now. They've had a lot of Eastern Europeans on their roster, that's for sure. They do, but they don't, they don't seem to always have the right one. And by the way, they got rid of Denny, they got rid of Denny. Come on now. Come on.

I know, I know. I was a big Denny. They got rid of a European. They had in their house who made a jump at average 14, and they get rid of him. and he is an all-star now and a guy you could actually, even if he's not a one, he's like,

he could be like Booker and be a 1A, or, you know, or even just under Booker and be a two. But maybe, maybe he's a kind of kid you can have in the center of your program at a nucleus,

and they blew that. I know they got a number one pick still coming in 29 for him. Yeah. No, I was a big Danny fan. We just saw him in the playoffs. I know. He just dropped four.

I know. In an elimination game. But you're right. I mean, this is not a Cooper flag and certainly not a Wembenyama, a draft, but there's a lot of depth. Like, I really, even though he is not a big fan of defending anybody, I really like Acuff Jr. To me, he looks like Lillard. Like, he could be that kind of a score. I totally agree with him.

I totally agree with you that I like Acuff. I like, there's a lot of them. I like the kid from Carolina who got her. Yeah, Caleb Wilson, yeah. I like him. I like the kid to Eric, both kids to Arizona. Oh, me too. Me too.

I like, you know, I like the kid. I like, I like Wogler, Illinois. I mean, there's this dude, there's, it's 15 deep. We even talk about the euros. They're going to be euros who we look up in two years and go, wow. Yeah. Oh, my God. Why don't we know this kid was this good?

So I don't I don't want to hear about finishing one and I got our dog in this race because the bulls are a mess They're a bigger mess than the wizards now They they dropped underneath the wizard and I don't care if we win it I'd like to have the bans I love the banser But don't I've seen I've seen Landisborg mocked to the bulls at 12 and 13 I'm like what What do you want you? Well you just mentioned one of the two Arizona players Co-A-Pete, after, I don't know how he's being mocked basically 15 or later.

I don't see that. So they think his body type, but he's too big, and he doesn't, he's not the new prototype. He's not the explosive, yeah, exactly. I tell you what, I tell you what, I'll take him to. Yeah, me too. And if I got two number one picks and the Bulls do, he can be one of mine. I'll take him. And maybe I'll be wrong, you know, but I, I, I, I,

There's a lot of players in this draft. You've got to be your scouting department. The star of this draft is going to be somebody's scouting department. All right. Last one. Just give me your assessment of where the Wizards are right now as a franchise. Okay. I'm going to tell you this.

And I feel embarrassed in a way about saying this. If somebody who got here in 19... I came as a summer intern in the summer of 79. I got here the night after the Wizards lost the Bullets lost of Seattle. That's what I arrived. Really? Yeah. So I got to see here.

Gus Williams and Dennis Johnson, a hell of a back court. Yeah. DJ was incredible in that series. I got to see the great bullets, you know, finish up. Yep. And I have watched, I watched from 1979 through 2000. 2020 closely, right through John Walden Bradley Bill closely. You know, you know I was there.

Yep. I was there for that. And now, for the last five years, I just don't, I don't bother. I don't watch them. And so I'm not, this is not, you know, I tuned out, Kevin. Well, they were terrible. And I didn't even watch them. They were intentionally terrible.

Well, they were, but also the way the media set up now, if you are in market, you've got to go to special lengths to watch the team in the market, I'm not doing that to watch them. Yeah. I'm not. It's like when I'm in Chicago, I can't see the Bulls, I can't see in market. I don't want to watch them. So, but, but. So I don't watch. So I got two teams I follow that I can't watch.

And I don't believe that Anthony Davis, oh, my God, a local for me. Chicago boy, love him. I don't believe he's going to ever be a factor if he suits up for the Wizards. And, you know, the whole Tray Young thing, I don't much buy that either. But if they turn those guys into assets, I would applaud that. And I do, I am not down on the front office. I'm not. I'm like, okay, let me give them a minute.

Let me give them, let me, let me see what they're. doing. Let me see how they develop this. Let's see what their scouting has done and the people who've drafted if they are going the right way. So I'm not sitting in judgment yet of the wizard. I might be after this

draft, because I want to see they got to, you've got to come up with a player. If you tanked the whole season, and they did, and I'm not even against that. I'm not Tony. You know, when you have a common draft, you set up an apparatus to reward

the worst team. So I'm tired of hearing about tanking. I care about load management. Load management is the scourge of pro basketball, not tanking. Tanking happened this year. And it happens like, it's happened three or four times

lately. So what? So I don't care about that. I care. Can you now take advantage of what you just did? Can your scouting department come up with a player? Somebody who's going to be at the center of your nucleus and lead you to the playoffs.

Can you come up with that? Yeah. I mean, look, it's been so long since there's been anything to be excited about. To your point, I've watched very little. I mean, I follow it. And I'm in favor of what they've been doing because it's never been a destination. You can't, you know, land big free agents. So this was the right thing to do.

I do agree with it. I think I'm not critical of them at all. And I do think just if, and it's a big if, if Anthony Davis played 65, 70 games next year, I think they win 45 plus and they're playing as a six-seed or better. Yeah, but the chances of that are... I know. Fine, but I'd rather have that to look forward to than another two or three years of being horrible before you find. find out if A.J. DeBonsa or

Darren Peterson mixed with Alex Sar. I don't think you would. I don't think you would. I don't think you'd have to wait that long. Look at Atlanta. Yeah. They, you know, I mean, no, come on now. I mean, Atlanta's got Jalen Johnson and he's

really good. I tell you what, look at Toronto. Yeah, Toronto turned it around quickly. Scouting. Scouting. You've got to find the right talent, the right piece of Toronto. By the way, speaking of the teams who bounced and passed the wizard on the bounce back. Toronto's one of them.

I know, but R.J. Barrett and Scotty Barnes are longtime vets at this point. I mean, they've been in the league six, seven, eight years. Well, but Scotty Barnes is only about his, no, Scotty Barnes not that long. Scottie Barnes, what, fourth year? No, it's more than that, isn't it? And the other kid from Canada's been around, but he's a discard. Scottie Barnes' fifth year. The other kid, the fifth year.

Okay, but the other rookie, the kid who played meaningful minutes late in the season. Yeah, the Houston. The hyphenated name. I'm drawing the plane. Oh, oh, oh, yeah. Murray Boyles. Murray Boyles. Yeah.

Toronto. And by the way, Messiah, you're Jerry, he left that cupboard, if not full, pretty damn well stocked before he was gone out of there last year. That's what he left them. And now they're on the way back, and they're going to be a factor next year. Not three. so the Wizards, if they get DeBanza, and you can put them with Tsar, and I don't, it's Trey Young, I don't know what this, I don't know.

Atlanta's better without Trey Young. I mean, I actually think the combination of Young and Davis, I'd like to see it, but more likely than not, the injuries will take over and they won't. But I actually think it's an interesting combination, because they, as a pick and roll combination, and even a pick and pop-and-pop opportunity, I think it would be interesting to watch.

But again, I just would rather not see another 27 win season next year when they're trying to win. Well, you're going to get it once. And that's okay. I just think as long as you see the talent, you see players emerging, players playing together, somebody being a tough guy,

I mean mentally and emotionally. Here's the thing, though, Mike, And Will Dawkins said this after the Trey Young trade, and he said it after the Anthony Davis trade. He said to truly be able to evaluate our young players, they've got to play meaningful basketball games. And that makes total sense to me. You've got to be looking at the standings. You've got to have teams that come into your building expecting to play a team that's trying to win to really evaluate the Kulaballis and the SARS and the Kishon George's. Will Riley. So I think that's what Trey Young and Anthony Davis will provide them with next year.

I think you're right if they can be healthy enough to practice. Of course. They're trying to create an environment with veterans who bring that every day. Kauai Leonard got to practice against Tim damn Duncan every day. And David Robinson had to be, well, I might have not been David. But he had to practice against Kauai for sure. And Genobley and Tony Parker. He did. And so who are the, one of the wizards, like, who are their vets that are leading that? Well, they just traded for it. To be honest with you, that's what Wall and Beal didn't have.

They didn't. Yeah. But they brought in a couple of vets there early. You know, a guy like Neney, a guy like Trevor oriza, that really helped. those first few years. Those guys were pros. They were pros, but they weren't going to necessarily bring along young talent. I'm talking about, you know, I hope, look, Anthony Davis and Trey Young are good enough players,

accomplished enough players to do that. But they got to be, they got to be in, you know, they're going to be in sweats every day, every day, and not street clothes. Thanks for doing this, as always. happy to me and happy to talk to you hope you're well what do you got for the what do you got what do you got for Knicks what do you got left for Knicks

fixers what's your what's your attitude about that goal I mean I like the way the Knicks started to play in the Hawks series there was less ISO there was more movement and because I Brunson's another one that I can't it's hard for me to watch

him harden guys like that dribble the air out of the basketball and not make a defense work. And I saw it differently at the end of that Atlanta series and even in game one against Philly. So I'd like to continue to see that because I would love to see Knicks O KC in the final. That would be fun.

Same here. I think that's the best thing we got left. Because in the East, it's not going to be Philly. It can't be... Could be Detroit. You know what? You know what? Detroit...

They're tough. And the question is, is Detroit going to own the Knicks like they owned them in the regular season in an embarrassing fashion. Yeah. If the Knicks go out to Detroit in the playoffs like they did in the regular season, then that team, the Knicks will be shaken up as well. All right, I'll talk to you soon and enjoy the rest of this. Thanks.

Appreciate you, Kemp. Thanks. Mike Wilbon, everybody. Thanks to him. Thanks to John Wall for joining me on the show today. All right, that'll do it. Have a great weekend. Talk on Monday.