The Kevin Sheehan Show - Hendon Hooker & Mac Jones

Episode Date: April 5, 2023

Kevin opened with some Caps, Nats, and some Ron"ese" translation before getting to thoughts on Hendon Hooker's Commanders pre-draft visit plus Washington being listed as a potential suitor for Mac Jones. NFL Draft expert Thor Nystrom was a guest on the show with his guess on who the Commanders will take at 16. Scott Jackson was on the show to talk Wizards' tanking!  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Cheon Show. Here's Kevin. Two guests on the show today. Thorneisdram will join us. Thor is one of my favorite draft experts.

We'll talk draft with Thor coming up in the next segment. The draft is three weeks from tomorrow night. And then Scott Jackson will be on with me. The Wizards are tanking. And I love it. We'll talk some wizards. We'll talk some. NBA MVP.

Joel Embed went for 52 last night, more than half of Philadelphia's points in their two-point win over the Celtics. We'll talk some NBA playoffs as we are approaching the end of the regular season this weekend with the Wizards as well. We're not going to do any masters on the show today, but let me just point you to my radio show, which now airs from 10 a.m. to 1 p.m. on the team 9.8. Scott was on with us live from Augusta, Scott Van Pelt this morning. So we did about 25 minutes on the Masters.

So you can find that at the Team 980.com. Just click on the Kevin Sheehan show. And in the first hour of the show, Scott was on. And it was some really good master's talk talking a lot about how the live tour players and the PGA tour players playing together for the first time. And what that's been like all week long down. in Augusta. We'll try to get Steve Sands on the show before the end of the week. Worst case, maybe Monday to recap what happens. But I am very much looking forward to the

masters, even though the weather is going to be a big issue down in Augusta. A beautiful first day, a hot first day. And then as we will see over the weekend, a front comes through and we go from summer back to kind of early spring with temperatures in the upper 40s, low 50s with rain and Augusta is going to get a lot of that as well. It's been 40 years since a Master's Monday finish, but that could be in play this weekend. I don't like Scotty Schaeffler this weekend, and there's no reason not to like him. He's the best player in the world right now, and he's a big-time favorite. I just don't see him going back to back at Augusta. I like Jason Day for some reason. I like Justin Rose a little bit.

I do think this could be Rory's weekend. Scott talked a lot about Rory, a lot about Tiger, so you can find that again at the Team 980.com or downloading, downloading, excuse me, the Odyssey app. I'm going to get to a couple of things here, and then we will get to Thor and to Scott Jackson. First of all, the caps are out of the playoffs officially for the first time in eight years. They had an eight-year run of making the postseason. It got me to thinking a bit about Ted Leonis, and I'm going to have this conversation with Scott a little bit as well. You know, they won the Stanley Cup, and some would say, thank God, Ted won the Stanley Cup, because if not, you could argue he's the worst owner in the city. Look, they've all benefited from

being side by side with Dan Snyder. But Ted never, you know, promised Stanley Cup after Stanley Cup. What he did promise, though, when they signed Alex Ovechkin to that 13-year contract, is he said, we're going to be in the playoffs basically every year. And in the NHL, that gives you a chance because that sport, when you get to the postseason, is very random. You know, I've talked to everybody about this, including coaches and GMs over the years. And they all admit it that there is a certain luck factor, puck luck factor, that comes into play. That's why you've seen eight.

seeds win the Stanley Cup. So, you know, the Ovechkin era has featured a right of spring, which is expecting the caps to be in the postseason. Now, they haven't done very well in the postseason, except for 2018. And, you know, that is, you know, bad luck, I guess. There have been some choking moments for sure. But, you know, it is true that getting that cup is worth a lot for Ted and the way we view him as a hockey owner. I view him differently as a basketball owner. I don't think he's been a very good basketball owner, but I'll share some of that with Scott Jackson and get his thoughts when Scott comes on. But he did, you know, and sure, he's had Alex Ovechkin, but they've had other really good players as well. But he has sort of backed up the promise of being in the

postseason every year and having a chance. And he delivered once on that chance. His organization, his organization delivered once. Thank God for him. You know, because if not, it would be one of the most disappointing franchises this city's ever had because of their inability to take advantage of perhaps the greatest goal score of all time. He will become that more likely than not as long as there isn't injury over the next couple of years. But no caps in the postseason. Florida's win last night.

Knock them out officially. They were pretty much out of it anyway. And it's going to be strange not to have a first round disappointing caps playoff loss to talk about. The Nats last night, what in God's name was Dave Martinez doing in the ninth inning last night when his closer was getting absolutely drilled to the tune of five runs on five hits, including three home runs in the top of the ninth to lose to Tampa 10 to 6. Kyle Finnegan went in with a 6 to 5 lead and gave up back-to-back home runs on four pitches and then gave up two hits, walked a batter, and gave up another home run.

How did he last in that ninth inning? I don't know. The Nats drew more than they did the night before, 15,000 plus, and the game was played in two hours and 45 minutes. Pretty amazing that a 10 to 6 baseball game was over in two hours and 45 minutes. But the Nats fall to 1 and 4. And this afternoon, and many of you listening already know what's gone on with the Patrick Corbyn start.

It was better in terms of innings pitched, but it's probably not going to help a ZRA out a ton. But the game is through, as I'm recording this podcast now, they are early into the sixth inning, and he's getting beat up a little bit here. The Nats probably are going to lose again to Tampa at home before they head out west to face Colorado, probably as a one in five baseball team.

But I can't imagine what was going through Dave Martinez as my last night as he left his closer, Kyle Finnegan, out there to just take an absolute bashing, embarrassing. All right, a couple things to get to real quickly on the Washington football front. First, some news on the sale front, which we've gotten two pieces of it since the show ended yesterday. This story came from puck.

news. I was not familiar with it. A Teddy Schieffler or a Teddy Schifler who wrote it. My producer Denton said it's a credible news, sports business kind of magazine. The author of this story actually emailed me

this story as well. I'm just going to read from this story one quote that came from someone who knows Dan Snyder well. The story for all intents and purposes was a story about Jeff Bezos not being out of this thing and that Jeff Bezos is still alive and potentially, you know, an 11th hour

bidder once all the bids are in and finalizing the whole thing. We know from Magic Johnson yesterday that the Harris bid is in. But anyway, this was a quote from somebody who knows Snyder well in this puck news story about Jeff Bezos. And remember, the idea that Snyder may not want to sell the team to Jeff Bezos. Quote, if you effing tell me that Bezos puts in a bid that is $250 million more than anybody else's bid and Dan won't take it, you're smoking dope. Dan will give Bezos a piggyback ride around the building on opening day next year for $250 million, okay?

I still think the reporting from several weeks ago that Bezos was exonerated. excluded from this process. I believe that reporting. I also believe that in recent weeks, as Snyder found out that that $6 billion price tag or more wasn't going to be fought over with multiple bids that, you know, what we've heard from Charles Gasperino at Fox Business News, that now he is open to allowing Jeff Bezos to come in and bid on the team. I don't know whether or not he would sell the team to Jeff Bezos. It certainly wouldn't surprise. me if early on the impulsiveness

of Dan was like hell no he's not even allowed to make a bid thinking that everybody out there was coming for his team and that you know six to seven billion wasn't going to be a problem for a lot of people

the other piece of news comes from AJ Perez at front office sports AJ writes this afternoon two things in particular. Jeff Bezos hasn't entered the bidding for the Washington commanders, but the Amazon founder will be given every opportunity to do so. So that's sort of dovetailing on the story from Puck News.

But he also had this A.J. Perez did in front office sports. Sources tell front office sports that the current deadline for commanders owner Dan Snyder to pick a winning bidder, He remains weeks, not days away. He also writes, A.J. Perez does. In the meantime, Josh Harris's group remains the frontrunner. So, you know, the stuff that I've been hearing a lot of is that this thing is imminent in terms of the announcement. Now, I've said that now for a week straight, so I'm wrong already on that front.

Perez also narrowed down kind of the time frame. He said sources said the current target date to select a bidder is before the next owner's meetings on May 22nd. So, you know, we're looking at some time before then. But weeks away, not days away. That's according to front office sports. So there you go. There's your sale news for the day. take it for what it is worth.

There's also some Ron Rivera from yesterday. He got the Salute to Service Award, and he was at the World War I Memorial yesterday. I'm not going to get into everything he said. I nitpicked a little bit more on radio this morning, him talking about rebuilding, reshaping the roster, and there's this long answer from Ron on that end. And I'll just say what I've said before on this front.

This isn't the first time they have focused on building the roster around the quarterback. They did it in 21 when they didn't get Matt Stafford and they paid Ryan Fitzpatrick one year $10 million. They actually had a rookie quarterback contract to remember when he took over the team in 2020. He seems to conveniently forget that fact, which actually kind of bothers me because I think it speaks to What was always my hunch, which was he never believed that Dwayne Haskins was going to be his long-term quarterback, and he should have acted on that right away rather than play Kate Snyder, which I think may have been a part of it. I think to get hired and to get all that responsibility, he at least had to say, look, we're going to take a look at the kid, we're going to give him a chance. Instead of saying, we don't have a quarterback and we have the number two pick in the draft, maybe we should take advantage.

of this opportunity of having the number two pick in the draft. Look, they couldn't get Burrow, as we know. I know because Ron told me this on the air, that Tua was not on their board because of the hip injury, and that they weren't overly serious about Herbert that Chase Young was just rated much higher on their board than Justin Herbert was. But the idea that, you know, Ron, I love the way Galdi puts it. You know, he, Galdi's term when he was on with me last week,

which I've used now several. several times, you know, speaking Ronis, you know, like we're becoming kind of fluent in Ronis. But this whole narrative about, you know, being focused on building the roster because for the first time you've got a quarterback situation where you don't have a lot invested in the quarterback is not only wrong and inaccurate, but it's selling himself short because they've actually done a pretty good job of building the roster. You know, I know not all these of their good players they brought in here, but they extended Terry McClain. They extended John Allen. They've extended Doran Payne. I mean, look at their secondary with Benjamin St. Juice and Cameron

Curl and Derek Forrest. You know, look at the backs with Robinson Jr. and Antonio Gibson. You know, by talking about this being the first time that they've done it, which is total Ronis, because it's wrong and it's totally a, you know, hey, look over here. Look at what we're doing. Look at the, you know, QB1 label on Sam Hal. Forget about what happened in the Cleveland game and what I said afterwards, not knowing that we couldn't make, that we were eliminated from the playoffs potentially that day, not knowing about that.

Like, look over here. We got a young quarterback. And by the way, he's on a rookie deal. Like, he's been talking about this rookie quarterback contract thing as if we've never heard of rookie quarterback contracts and the benefit of having them if the rookie quarterback contract is with a quarterback that's really good, which usually doesn't happen, but did with Jalen Hertz in Philadelphia. But remember, that was not the plan in Philadelphia. They had Carson Wentz. They invested a lot in Carson Wentz. They not only traded up to pick them, they gave them a big contract.

So anyway, it's actually not what I wanted to get to as it relates to Ron. Ron said something about Chase Young yesterday. After, you know, he took questions after this nice honor for him and the 2022 Salute to Service Award winner for the NFL. He was asked about sort of the Chase Young fifth year option again. and he talked to, I guess he was asked specifically about the knee. Remember, in Phoenix he talked about, well, we got to wait on ownership, which was a weak, weak answer. They don't have to wait on ownership. They didn't have to wait on ownership to extend Ron Payne.

That's bullshit. So this is what he said yesterday. More Ron ease as it relates to the knee injury. Quote, that's the thing that will drive a big part of the conversation. we continue to work through this and talk about it. It will be about seeing him and watching him. We get started April 17th. They have some OTAs on April 17th. So we'll continue these training, you know, periods, not the official OTAs that take place in June, but the training period. He said, we get started April 17th, so we'll continue to work through these things, talk to the doctors, talk to the trainers,

strengthen medical, and just kind of get a feel for where he is. Then we'll be able to make a decision and we'll go from there. So yesterday it was about the injury. Last week it was about ownership. I mean, you can't, you know, you can't really follow this. And I know some of you get sick of the nitpicking of the Ron opportunities, but you know, this is your not only head coach, but this is the head of the whole football operation. And Chase Young was picked number two overall. And the fifth year option date is May 2nd, you know, when the draft ends. You know, this April 17th, start date. I'll go back to the OTAs of June after his rookie year. They were pissed off. They were pissed off. They already had the beginnings of an inkling that this wasn't, you know, the captain,

the sea that they put on his chest, that he wasn't necessarily perhaps worthy of that. There were already maybe some concerns about, you know, scheme and his fit in the scheme and whether or not he would adhere to the scheme. By the way, I'll still add and throw in there. When you have a talent like Chase Young, sometimes you let them play a little bit outside of the scheme. That's what Belichick did and Bill Parcells did with Lawrence Taylor. I digress. However, they were really pissed off. What if Chase Young doesn't show up for any of this stuff in April?

Maybe they just want to see him start to show up for things. One other thing, too, just on the idea that now it's more about the injury. And again, who knows what to believe when it comes to Ron, but if it really is about the medical and the trainers and the doctors, you know, Ron at the end of the year, when Chase came back and played, said he's ready. You know, he's been cleared. And then when he did play, he was very positive about what they saw physically.

And that, you know, it was really more about Chase mentally, you know, getting through that first game of playing off of that, what was a very serious knee injury. If they still have concerns about the medical, about the strength, you know, of the knee, unless he got injured in one of those games that he played at the end of the year and we didn't know about it, well, they shouldn't have played him. I mean, that was a risk not worth taking. Anyway, a couple more things.

They're bringing in Hendon Hooker, the quarterback from Tennessee. for one of their 30 pre-draft visits. Can you imagine if they take Hendon Hooker on, let's just say, night two of the draft in the second round? I mean, I'm all for them continuing to pursue a quarterback, including in the draft. And I would have no problem if they fell in love with a quarterback and they took a quarterback in this draft.

I don't think they have their franchise quarterback. I hope they have their franchise quarterback, but I would guess and I would wager that they don't. have their franchise quarterback. And I would also, as I've said before, suggest that they're not even sure if they have their franchise quarterback. So the fact that they're looking at Hendon Hooker right now, a guy who is 25 going on 26 coming off an ACL injury, and I like Hendon Hooker, I don't love Hendon Hooker. I think the offense was limiting for sort of pro-development at Tennessee. But I'll ask Thorneisdram when he comes on, what he thinks of Hendon.

Hector. But can you imagine if they do select a quarterback in the second round or third round? And by the way, it's a guy that everybody's heard of. He was a Heisman front runner there for a while towards ACL late in the season. You know, kind of like Sam Hal was not your run-of-the-mill fifth round selection. Hendon-Hooker would not be your run-of-the-mill third-round selection. There's been some talk that Hendon Hooker might actually sneak into the first round. But anyway, be amazing. It certainly would speak to, hey, we're, we like Sam, we're just not sure, which by the way would be kind of the prudent approach. One more thing before we get to Thorne Seastrum and then to Scott Jackson. Cody Benjamin, CBSports.com. Mac Jones trade rumors.

Apparently the Patriots are looking potentially to trade Mac Jones. I don't know if it's because they love Bailey Zappy or if they're going to draft somebody. But, They appear to be now off of Mac Jones. Top 15 pick, Pro Bowl selection, you know, that first year, 24 years old rookie contract deal. So Cody Benjamin put together five potential suitors for Mac Jones. Denver came in as the fifth best spot. Tampa the fourth.

The third, Washington. And he writes about, you know, Midland. quarterback play and middling options this year with Al and Bressett. And, you know, they'd still have a guy on a rookie deal with three more, you know, potential seasons. You know, they'd have to pick up the fifth year option to get three more years. By the way, he had Tennessee is two and Vegas, the Raiders, as one. Mac Jones to Washington. First of all, I don't know what you'd have to give up, but it wouldn't be a first rounder. You know, the funny thing about Mack Jones, actually think, I mean, he had a defensive guy as his offensive coordinator last year. That was

crazy. He was, as a rookie, I thought at times he looked like, especially with Trevor Lawrence, remember how he was struggling and Trey Lance wasn't playing and who am I forgetting from that draft. Zach Wilson, Justin Fields. You know, there was a moment there where I thought, you know what, the Patriots got it right with Mack Jones. He had a good rookie season. He had a good rookie season. You know, he really did. He had some really interesting games. That game against the Cowboys, remember that crazy overtime

game? And he hit I forget the receiver now. Was it Kendrick Bourne? It may not have been him. It may have been somebody else. Unlike an 85-yard touchdown pass latent regulation to force overtime. You know, he had some

big games. They went to the postseason that year. I'm looking up his stats right now. He was 22 touchdowns over 13 picks, 3,801 yards in that rookie season in which he started all 17 games. Completed 67.6% of his passes. You know, had a 92.5 passer rating of 56.9 QBR. This year was a step back year. You know, he was banged up a little bit, missed some games. They struggled. Had a defensive guy calling the plays. I don't know what was going on there. But I kind of felt watching Mack Jones during these first two years when I did watch him.

You know, this year I remember they played that Thanksgiving night game against the Vikings, if you recall. And he, you know, he lit it up. I mean, everybody did against Minnesota this year. But he had a massive game that night throwing in a loss, a 33 to 26 loss, throwing for 382 yards. It was the best game he had all year. Two touchdowns, no picks. Again, Minnesota's defense was wretched this year. But he had a couple of other good games this year.

Had a good game early against Baltimore and kind of a shootout loss against the Ravens. Had a couple of picks in that game, but threw for 321. I don't know. I'll tell you what's unimpressive about Mack Jones. He looks really smart. he also looks so much he's so slow and unathletic and yet I've seen him run and I've been like

whoa that was a surprising kind of level of athleticism but I think everything about him including the throwing motion everything looks slow he was 14 touchdowns 11 interceptions this year didn't even throw for 3,000 yards just short of it and a 65.2% completion percentage. I'm just looking through the games to see if any of them really shake my memory in terms of how he played. I remember very much the Thanksgiving

night game when they could not stop Mac Jones and the New England offense, which had been stopped pretty much a lot of the year. Yeah, that Baltimore game, 321, 68.8% had three picks, three picks in that game, no touchdowns. I do remember that game because it was a close game. You know, it was a game that New England had a chance to win against the Ravens. And they had been playing well. I think they had been playing well. Let's see. That was early in the year.

That was week three. Okay, they were one in one. They had beaten Pittsburgh and he had thrown for 252 in that game and beat a pretty good defensive team. The game in which he got hurt in was that Chicago Monday night game. Remember that? That was a disaster. And the Bears rolled with a bunch of defensive touchdowns.

He beat the jet defense, which was a great defense. twice, by the way. 22 to 17, and then they won 10 to 3, but he was 23 at 27 in that game for 246 and no interceptions, no touchdowns. I don't know. Would Mack Jones be better than anything they have right now? I'm not sure.

I'm not sure. I don't think, by the way, Washington's trading for Mac Jones. I think we've heard enough of Ron that now, if he were to go back, and make a trade for Mac Jones, even though he could say, well, it's still a rookie contract deal, and we wanted more competition for Sam. But if you trade for Mac Jones, I guess if you trade for Mac Jones, you're not necessarily saying for sure he's a starter, because what are you really going to

give up for Mac Jones at this point? A second or third rounder, tops? You're not giving up a first rounder for Mac Jones. You know, it wasn't even a guarantee in that draft for a while that he would be a first round pick. And then all of a sudden, we heard, you know, how San Francisco was in love with him, but they didn't take him. They took Trey Lance. All right. Let's get to Thor Nystrom, right after these words from a few of our sponsors. All right, let's talk some NFL draft, and let's do it with somebody who I love talking NFL draft with, and that is Thor Nystrom at Thor Koo. That's T-H-O-R-K-U on Twitter. Thor's been doing mock drafts and following college football and mocking players with pro comps for a while now. You can go to at fantasy pros, at betting pros, to get some of Thor. But you can

get everything really from Twitter at Thor Coo. Look, we're here basically three weeks away from night one. Three weeks from tomorrow night will be night one. I do want to get to a lot of Washington discussion at 16. And there's been recent discussion. They're bringing in Hendon Hooker. They were at Tennessee's Pro Day. So I want to find out about quarterbacks, Hooker in particular.

But let's start at the top of the draft with Carolina and Houston. What order do you think it goes in in terms of the quarterbacks? I'm still going with CJ Stroud at number one. From what I've heard, that's what I'm hearing. There's been some rumors now about Bryce Young.

Maybe. I don't know if that's, a smoke screen or what, trying to incentivize Houston to sort of flip with them. You'd toss them a little bit of a sweetener. But I think at the end of the day, you're going to see C.J. Stroud at one and Bryce Young and two to Houston. And I think both teams come out happy because I think Bryce Young is the number one quarterback on the number on overall player on Houston board. Stroud is on Carolina. So you've got your mock draft two round with predictions and player comps up there.

tell everybody who you comp Stroud and Young too. I comp T.J. Stroud to Justin Herbert. There's a lot of similarities there, and the one that maybe it might fall apart for people is like, well, we saw Herbert run around a little bit more in college. Well, that just wasn't a staple of Stroud's game. He addressed that during the pre-draft process of like, you know, I think his exact quote was, when you work 10 hours on one specific play, you don't want to bail the pocket at the first sign of trouble. you want to go, you know, your first read, second, read, third,

read, fourth read. C.J. Stroud, he is that guy that goes through all the different reed. But he's more athletic, I think that people gave him credit for. We've seen that in the Georgia game in the playoff when he was moving around. And the other thing is that thing sent me back on him, because, of course, you watch him live through the gears. But, you know, I go back and then I watch the L-22. Stroud actually moves around better in the pocket.

Certainly than I had given him credit for in the moment. It sort of opened your eyes in the Georgia game where it's like, well, I've got to go back and look and see, was it, you know, did I have a bias? There was I not seeing something. And while he's not galloping in the open field, he does move around well in the pocket. It wasn't just that Georgia game where he did it,

but that was obviously the most impressive occurrence of it, considering the defense he was playing, the throws he made on the run, et cetera, et cetera. So I comp him to Justin Herbert. And then with Bryce Young, I comp him to Russell Wilson when he was coming out, obviously not the last year Russell Wilson, but when he was coming out of Wisconsin,

his early years with the Seahog, I think there's a lot of similarities. there. When Bryce Young came out of high school, I comped him to Kyler Murray. But Kyler Murray, he just, he left the pocket way more. He would do more at the running stuff, whatnot. Bryce Young's another guy. He wants, he uses, and he's very athletic. He's a quick twitch guy, both lower half and upper half, but he uses his mobility just to buy more time. The broken play stuff, you see that a ton with him because that's, it's not a broken play. It's a part of the way that he plays the game. If there's not a guy immediately open. He can go through the reeds, and then he's just going to buy time by

just pirouetting around, you know, just picking around garbage in the pocket. And invariably, someone is going to end up getting open. He's very good at that. He doesn't put his body in danger with that. He has a very good sense for the path rushers around him. And then he pulls the trigger so dang fast. He gets the ball out just so frigging quickly when he sees it. He sees it, and the ball's already out, and it's on the way. Descend on defensive backs really quickly. so the processing for Bryce Young helps to make up for the lack of like elite elite RPMs on his arm

like he can out process the safety it's really difficult for the safety to get down, crash down in time until I come to the catch point they're just not invited because Bryce Young will get it and he sees it quicker, gets it out quicker so really like his game and I see a lot of similarities to Russell Wilson maybe just a little bit more athletic but that's what you're talking about.

Yeah and the size thing too I'm sure is one of the reasons that you've comped him to Russell Wilson You know, I was thinking about this as you were talking. Do you think Russell Wilson, and I'm not talking about last year, like you said, but take Russell Wilson's stretch of incredible football in Seattle. I mean, no matter what kind of, you know, person or lack of leadership or whatever and all the things that have come out about his time in Seattle, including that Seattle basically offered him for the number one pick in the draft

when Cleveland picked Mayfield, which, you know, we learned about at the beginning of last year. Do you think Wilson's the best off-schedule quarterback of this era? Or is it Mahomes? I mean, give me your order of best off-schedual, you know, creating time, playmaking quarterback of like the last 10 years. It's got to be Mahomes. Just, you know, like the creativity, the not panicking. And then what he brings that these two guys don't have said,

it's a frigging bazooka. So like when on some of these broken plays and then you get a free receiver downfield, there's confusion on the back end, you know, and stuff like that, he can hit all those different guys. But yeah, Russell Wilson would be super duper high up on that list. And you see a similar thing with Bryce Young. He likes to set up deep in the pocket. He likes to get the deep set because he wants the wider view of the field.

But also he wants to create more space, more runway, for him to scramble around it. So having got more space, whatever, that's advantageous to his game. And something that you seem was Russell Wilson. Obviously, Kyler Murray is very effective at this too. I think the differentiation between those two guys, though, like I said, is Kyler Murray is more apt to just tuck the thing and then run, whereas Bryce Young, I mean, he's waiting until, say, die. He doesn't want to run.

I mean, he will every now and again when it's just the three yards, but he really wants to win downfield, and he does. His accuracy is ridiculous. like I mentioned, he can buy that time, and he can get the ball out so fast. And not only so fast, he's one of those guys that can get it out from different arm angles and around, you know, traffic and bodies and garbage. That's sort of what reminds you of Mahomes a little bit. He obviously just doesn't have the armstring.

Yeah, it's funny because I think, you know, and Chris Cooley was my partner on radio for many years, and he's on this podcast all the time. And he used to say about Russell Wilson, one of the reasons, you know, it's not the reason he's great off schedule. It's his vision. It's his anticipation, but one of the reasons he's off schedule so much is that he can't see in the pocket as much. And Mahomes is different, but I sometimes feel like Mahomes goes off schedule when he doesn't have to because it's like more fun for him to do it that way. Like I remember watching Mahomes last year, not this past season, the year before, and saying he looks bored.

Like at times he actually looks bored playing and he's got to almost create some of these opportunities and these arm-out-eastern. angle throws to make it more fun for him. By the way, I think Aaron Rogers has been a really good off-schedule quarterback as well. You know, the comp for Bryce Young so much has been Drew Breeze, who was also very good off-schedual. But he always played in that system with Sean Peyton, you know, pure West Coast where the ball was just coming out so much faster than maybe it ever really was for Russell Wilson, who they used more as a dual-threat guy. A thousand percent, yeah, and you have to think about, I love the call yet on Rodgers, too. Yeah, you'd have to put him in any top three list with that.

If you're looking at the last, like, 15 years or so. But yeah, as far as, you know, it goes with young, it's just something that's like part and parcel of his game whatnot. And he's the, I think of Stroud as like the facilitator. You know, he's the guy who's going to run your system for you perfectly, run the place for you perfectly, he's not going to give up on the place. And then his accuracy and his placement are awesome. him, you know, and he's just sort of like that big sniper in the pocket, who always has that, like, sound base under him and everything.

He's cocked, ready to throw and whatnot. Bryce Young, he's a creator. He's not a facilitator. He's a creator. Like, what happens in any given play, it will be decided in that moment. Bryce Young doesn't want you spoon-feeding him reads. Like, it's just not even necessary. He's going to create it.

He's going to see it, and he's going to go through multiple different options, if that, you know, the first one isn't just immediately available. Like, he's a super processor. There was a, it's like the 10,000 hours, you know, in the cockpit that Malcolm Pladwell talked about. There was the news that had come out either today or yesterday about how Bryce Young was clearly the number one guy amongst his quarterback class when they did the processing test. I forgot what it's called something to.

It's like P2 or Q2 or some, it's some sort of test you do on the laptop where it basically, you know, It's like it's 45-minute test, and it tests how quickly you can go through different stuff. So, like, for instance, they'll flash like six shapes on the screen, and then as fast as you can. You have to say which shape is not like the other one. Right. Young is just like, it's like, you know, right there. It's like, you know, like you think the guy's cheating. But that's just what it is.

He sees it really, really well. Yeah, I think also what we're hearing to, and we've heard, the intangibles with Young are also off the charts. you just spoke about one of them, but I think leadership, locker room guy, the whole thing. He's my number one, too. The CJ Stroud is interesting because after that Michigan game, I was like, no chance. This is going to be another one of those Ohio State quarterbacks that benefit from all of the talent. And by the way, Bryce Young did not have the wide receiver talent this year that some of his predecessors had. But anyway, enough of those about those two.

You have Anthony Richardson going to Indianapolis at number four. So here we get into after Stroud Young. Let me ask you this. Do you give any chance to Carolina going Anthony Richardson at number one? Well, Anthony Richardson's camp seems to believe that he's going one, or at least that's what they've been sort of forwarding out there. I would still be very surprised. I mean, like obviously you have the unprecedented physical package.

Thatcher speaks for itself. You have the perfect 10 RAS score. They only give out one of those preposition historically. Anthony Richardson now has that. But it is a risk. I mean, you have to say that it's a risk that, you know, the accuracy and the mechanics and different stuff like that are going to have to be worked through. But I also think there's a reason that you take them in the top five.

Like Will Levis, for instance, Will Levis, he has a pocket presence issue. He also, he has a similar thing in terms of his mechanics. he could be nonchalant with it, you know, where he's not set in his feet or where he doesn't square his shoulders, you know, and stuff like that. And then the accuracy goes down. But one of the reasons I'm not as bullish on Will Levis sort of figuring it out at the NFL level is, you know, there's this argument of like, oh, we'll just fix Will Levis. We'll fix the mechanics of him. And then, you know, his awesome arm is going to play way, way up.

Well, sure, it's just that in college over the last couple years every time the kid was under pressure, he panicked. He took an enormous amount of sack. he doesn't sense the past rash very well. And when he does sense it late, when he's not getting sacked, invariably he would make a wonky decision. I'm bringing this up to talk about Anthony Richardson. People talk about raw elements of Anthony Richardson's game, and that's fair enough. There are some of them, and like I said, the mechanical one is the first thing that you get to work on. But he doesn't have that same pocket presence thing.

In fact, he is the polar opposite in this class in terms of that. When he doesn't panic at all, even when the edge defend, like free rush. are in his kitchen. Kevin, you remember that game against Utah in the opener where they upset Utah. And then the two-point conversion play, Utah has two three rushers coming at them on the right side. And that's where the play, the play concept was going. So Anthony Richardson, he was dead to right drifting right into these two guys who had the free rush. But he didn't panic at all. The first guy, he did that crazy spinning pirouette fake, you know, pump fake in midair. And then the other guy, he's just like, bye-bye, and then runs around. And then he gets the dude wide

open in the back of the end zone. He doesn't panic at all because he knows at any moment. He can spring either way and then just start running. So he doesn't have to panic. And you see this with edge rushers approaching him. It's sort of like, you know, you're in the zoo and like you're approaching like a very dangerous animal, like a lion. You have to have care with it. Because if you come in too hot against Anthony Richardson, again, you're not going to panic him. And then he can do all these different things, you know, even from the close quarters. So those are the reasons that I'm more bullish on the ceiling. And maybe he certainly has the risk profile.

But I think it's a little bit less than maybe people have given him credit for. But I think four is the right spot for him. Yeah, I've talked so much about him during the course of the year in that Utah game. And then everybody, you know, after that Utah game, everybody said, well, I just watched him. He's terrible. He's got terrible mechanics. And all that, the throwing mechanics, it's true.

It wasn't his only great game. I thought he was really good in the Tennessee game in particular because he basically strapped that team to his back and gave him just a fighting chance in that game. And there were games in which, you know, like the LSU game were literally as a runner. He was unbelievable. I think there's a lot that's interesting about Anthony Richardson,

and I think that's a really good point about him versus Levis. Every time you watch Kentucky in a tight game, Levis under pressure made horrible decisions. decisions. And Richardson actually, you know, somebody pointed this out to me, one of the PFF guys, Nick Ackridge said that, you know, if you watch Richardson from the pocket, processing and reading defenses is a strength for him. You know, the only thing that needs to be fixed is footwork, which leads to, you know, inaccuracy. And if they can work on that, you may have yourself a star. Now, you comped him to Cam Newton. And I think,

that that's probably the comp. I mean, he's actually not as big as Cam in terms of physical overpowering size, but he's a pretty big dude. Because Newton was what? Like 6-6-250, right? Pretty much. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's not perfect, but when you have an unprecedented after coming in any position, you're not going to be able to get a perfect one. Newton was close. Another guy I think about is Dante Culpepper with him, you know, like, you know, in terms of that. But yeah, I mean, you just have a very short list of guys that are that big that can throw that far and that, you know, are going to go in the first round like this. Look, I would say as a pure dual threat quarterback and as a runner, you know, I think there are cops to Lamar Jackson. Because I think if you put him in that kind of an offense, if you put him in a Greg Roman offense like Baltimore's run with Jackson, you could play Richardson right away.

Yeah, a thousand percent. Yeah, people have to start baking in the rushing utility with quarterbacks more than they do. You know, like, because when, you know, a lot of times if you start talking about this, especially on Twitter, people only want to talk about, you know, the accuracy or, like, you know, some of the baseball card stats that you can really see. But, like, the value that Richardson provides your offense, it's not just his rushing utility, which is enormous, which makes up for some of the, you know, some of the passing stuff, because it's still yardage.

It's still first downs. It's still you're moving towards the end of whatnot. But it's also, even the mere threat of Anthony Richardson running helps out his running back. You mentioned PFF. PFF had done a stat about quarterbacks that run over X amount of times in a season. Does that benefit the running back or does it not? And I think what they found, I'm doing this off memory, but I think it was it added something like two-tenths of a yard or three-tenth of a yard to those running back on those teams in those situations above what the expected was.

So you're literally helping out the guy standing next to you just because of the spacing that you're providing. Well, look, I mean, in 2012, when RG3 was drafted by our team here, and Kyle Shanahan and Mike Shanahan said, we're going to play football differently, and we're going to put him in the pistol. The pistol formation had never, you know, the Nevada Crissault, you know, pistol formation had never been shown in the NFL. The only true dual threat was Cam Newton in the red zone for, you know, the year before. and they came out and they unleashed Griffin on the league.

They were also unleashing Alfred Morris on the league because Alfred Morris benefited from the having to consider the quarterback as a runner. You know, I've said this many times to my audience, but Mike Shanahan told me, you know, very early on, you know, you play offense in traditional football, 10 on 11. We're playing 11 on 11 football with Robert Griffin the third

posed as a running threat on every play, and it makes a big difference. And of course it, not only by the way, you know, I think if you did the study on the past protection that it allows for a dual threat quarterback, when Reed option is a possibility

and that ball goes into the gut of the runner, those linebackers and those defensive linemen freeze. I think it was the best pass protection for Robert Griffin the third in his rookie year. And what was very ironic about it, Thor, is he didn't want to run that offense after the first year, and he never was.

Injuries were a part of it. But obviously it was his one productive season in the NFL. All right, let's talk Washington at 16 in this draft. They have a need for offensive line. They have a need for DB, perhaps corner. I personally think they have a need for tight end, although they're not suggesting that they have a need at tight end. Their number one need, by the way, is quarterback.

But you've got Levis going at number seven. You've got the four top quarterbacks in the draft gone by seven. So they'd have to trade up. They're not going to do that. By the way, you don't see Hendon Hooker as a potential reach, you know, mid-first round or anywhere in the first round guy, which, you know, is starting to become part of the conversation here recently. Yeah, I don't see Henan Hooker in there at all.

In fact, I see him more as a third-round prospect, you know, but the first-round stuff, it's surprising, but I don't know if there's any substance to that. You know, of course there's teams doing work on him. I can tell you, you know, locally here, the Viking, they've done about as much work on Henan-Hoker as anyone, and that's reflected in the sports books in terms of the odds, like the Vikings have the, you know, the lowest odds or whatever

to take Henan Hooker in the draft potentially. But I think if any team took Henan Hooker in the first round, to me that's egregious. Like, because the kid, you know, he's going to be 25, I guess 26 when his rookie year gets done. Obviously, he's coming off the late season, ACL tear. But that's only really the start of it for me.

People need to turn on the Henan Hooker cutups, you know, or just play, play, play, play, play. And watch for one thing. Do you ever see Henan Hooker gets the ball? He always squares to the sign. of the field that he's reading because Josh Hypo in that system, they cut the field and half. He squares his shoulders to that side of the field. But it's not just that. He never goes to the other side of the field. I believe Sam Monson told me on Twitter today it was

11 or 12 times that they counted over his career. Something like that, the past couple years of Tennessee where Henan Hooker went to the other side. It's just, it's not just that he doesn't read the full field. He's only used to playing on half the field. Then the other thing is, you know, he's a dual threat. You know, I'm using air quotes on that. And he is in terms of like he's a very good runner once he leaves the pocket. And he can also stretch you deep. His vertical balls are very good and stuff like that.

Certainly acknowledge that. But the problem is his legs and his arm do not work in concert. This is another PFF step, but over 151 dropbacks the past two years when Henan Hooker was moved off his spot, he only completed seven passes in those 151 occurrences. So when he tucks the ball, almost always he's running, or when he moves off the spot whatsoever, because another thing you notice about him, he squares to that one side of the field. He don't move around at all.

It's like his feet are glued there. It's not a viable system to run in the NFL. So he's going to have to learn to play the position in a completely different way. He wasn't succeeding at the position as a passer before that. It's the reason that Virginia Tech was cool with him leaving. You know, and then he winds up at Tennessee loses the job that Joe Milton coming out of camp. people forget that. And then, you know, then he got his shot and he played very well. But there's, there's these big red flags in his profile that go beyond even the thing of like the age and the

injuries coming off of. Interesting stuff on him. Not to mention, by the way, everybody was wide open for them last year. I mean, Jalen Hyatt was wide open on almost every time he read one side of the field. It typically, that first read, and maybe the only read for him, seemed to be open. All right, so let's talk about 16 in Washington. You've got them selecting, and I've seen, I think I've seen Joey Porter, Jr. from Penn State, the corner from Penn State mock to Washington at 16 as much as any player in the draft. So tell us about Joey Porter, Jr., and other players that are in and around that spot that you think would fit. Yeah, I think it's a good spot for him if Joey Porter,

ends up getting there. There's no assurance that he will, but if he does, and then, you know, the scenario where there's not a quarterback on the board, whatnot, you're plug in, you know, arguably what is your biggest hole with a guy you know is going to succeed in the NFL. Obviously, the bloodlines, I don't even need to say that because of the name. But then also the game plays, you know, he's feisty like his dad is. It's just he on the outside is a boundary corner, and he has really unique dimensions for an outside corner. He's well built, but he's also has super duper long arms. So when you're looking for a press man corner,

he's one of the most accomplished in this class. He's done it against the best of the best. You know, the Ohio State kids and everything like that, he had to play those guys in space and jam them and stuff. And he gave, you know, those guys, a procession of the heaviest hitters that we had in college football gave them a really hard time.

The one thing you were wondering about Porter coming into the pre-draft process, like what is going to be that testing profile? You just needed them to clear a certain hurdle in order to lock himself, into the first round because he knew the physicality was there, the ball skills, everything like that. The way he funnels and redirect receivers off the line, it's like, no, you're not running what you want to do, you're running what I want you to do, pushing them towards the sideline, different stuff like that.

You loved all that. You were just wondering about the athletic profile, and he went up and he proved that 97 percentile RAS score. So, I mean, you know, the doubt has gone there. A kid who's six, two and a half, 193, but again, with those long, long, ropey arm, length is just fabulous. So I'd be a big fan of that pick, and it would plug a huge hole for Washington 16. Do you think anybody's close to Gonzalez at Corner? I do, yeah. For me, Witherspoon and Gonzalez are very closer at the top. Gonzalez, obviously, is the measurable guy.

He's the Adonis guy. Right. Well-built, but also, you know, the long track history. Whereas Devin Witherspoon, he has the best tape in the class, and I don't think it's particularly close. Like last year, it was the no-fly zone. You couldn't complete passes say the side of the field whatsoever.

Quarterback stopped even trying. The stats on that are just absolutely stupid in terms of the yards he gave up the quarterback rating when targeted, different stuff like that speaks for itself. And you just love the way that Witherspoon play is it's hard to get that kid out of your back pocket. You know, he's like following you into the tunnel.

You know, joining you on the team bus. You just can't get rid of the guy. So like for me, I actually have Witherspoon slightly ahead of Gonzales. You do. Certainly wouldn't argue with people. people that have Gonzalez higher. And I think, you know, the decision for an NFL team,

what is your scheme call for? Do you need that bigger guy who has that athleticism from me lack some of the instincts that, you know, that a guy like Witherspoon does, or do you want the guy who's a little bit smaller, doesn't have quite as good at testing, but just has the fabulous tape, has the fabulous instincts. You love the attitude, everything like that.

I would side towards Witherspoon just, you know, having sort of a vacuum or I'm not doing this for a team and having a specific scheme. By the way, your comp for Joey Porter Jr., who you have Washington selecting, is A.J. Terrell. Real quickly, if I told you they picked an offensive linemen at 16, give me the linemen that should be there and would be their best choice. Yeah, that wouldn't surprise me at all. Obviously, the bonanza would be if one of the top three guys dropped there,

between Broder Jones, Peres-Jolns, and Peter Skoranski, doesn't look like it's going to happen, but at least, you know, what a Lloyd Christmas saying, dumb and dumber? You're saying there's a chance. There is a possibility. But outside of that, obviously, that wouldn't be the favorite outcome. I think darn out right is the one that makes just a ton of sense. He number three on my board.

He's moved up to a number three on a lot of people's board. He proved the concept of his athleticism during the pre-draft process. Right after he had proven the concept of everything coalescing in a breakout season in 2022, he went to Tennessee as, you know, like a, you know, Ballihood recruit, five-star recruit. But like initially in his career, it was like he was working through different stuff. He was working on his technique or, you know, like just different stuff like that. And he wasn't very consistent. But this past year was dominant. I think he had a 1.2 pressure rate that was number three among all offensive linemen in the FDS. That shows his past block.

And he's even better as a run blocker because he just has this nuclear reactor of power. Like his game is all about power. But again, he proved the concept of that athleticism during the pre-draft process. So there's not many questions about him. the fourth overall offensive lineman that I would look at at 16th. They're bringing in Osiris Torrance from Florida. You've got him at the end of the

first round. Do you think 16s too early? It might be a little bit early, but that's where the range for Osiris Torrance begins, because he's not dropping out of the first round, so it's either going to be mid to late teens or it's going to be somewhere there in the 20s. But yeah, I mean, it's like, and he's

look, Osiris Torrance, he's confined to guard, but you want to talk about just ludicrous power? Like, when that guy gets his hands on you, you're going where Osiris Torrance wants you to. He has 11 and, I think, a quarter inch hands. You know, he has like two first baseman glove mitts for hands. And again, when he latches on to you, you're going where he wants you to. The only thing with him is, again, he can find a guard because I mean, he's a 350 pounder. And he's just not quite as ambulatory. Certainly is for a guard, but if you were projecting him as a right tackle, you'd wonder if he could shuffle the art stuff like that,

but there's no question with him at guard. Very clean projection into the NFL level. And like I wouldn't argue with it too much if Washington took him at 16. This is going to sound crazy, but there's a chance. Washington doesn't pick up the fifth year option on Chase Young. And that Chase Young ends up playing his final year in Washington

on the final year of his rookie deal, the fourth year this year. It's a long story, Thor. I don't know how much you know about it, but the injury is part of it, but I think there's a lot more to it with Chase Young if they end up not picking up the fifth year options. So with that said, you know, Montez Sweat entering his final year. I think, you know, if they don't pick up the fifth year option, they'll try to find a way to extend sweat. But it's not totally nuts. If the best player on their board is an edge rusher that they would take that player. So who are the edge rushers that might be there at 16?

I think there's a decent shot that Miles Murphy gets there. Clemson. The Clemson kid. Yeah. Yeah, and he was ranked even higher during the pre-draft process. Fall in a little bit because he couldn't do some of the testing, but he was expected to test like a freak. I'm not concerned about that because, I mean, he's got the best, for instance,

first step in the class, so you know that his jumps are both going to be ridiculous. you know it's 10 years. It's going to be ridiculous. His athletic profile, I don't think would have been too dissimilar from Trayvon Walker if he had done the testing, but he might fall down just a little bit. So he could be available to him. Nolan Smith, that's going to be right around his range. You know, Nolan Smith, like the Nolan Smith watch, I think, starts at 10, but like he could go anywhere between 10 and 20 or so, so that that be right in his range. But I think with Washington, that that's one that would be very good for your second round pick because this edge class not only good at the top, but you also have that depth into J2 and guys that could be available there for their pick.

Keon White might get down there. You know, he's a little bit older. He hasn't played as many staffs because he, you know, he transferred from ODIU to Georgia Tech. Will McDonald is a little bit undersized. That's why he would fall down, but just ridiculously productive and very athletic. The Felix Adunakee, Azuma, the kid from Kansas State, and probably butcher in his last name, but he was a real problem for offensive tackles and the Big 12 will be another guy to look at. and then Aziz Ujolari's brother, BJ Ujou, coming out from LSU.

He's another guy that I would expect to be around there in round two. So when you're doing this three-dimensional chess thing for Washington, I'd probably defer that one to round two if you're going to take one, but I think you'd get a really good one in the slot there in. Can they defer tight end to second round and still get a player that can come in and help as they'll probably need one with a young quarterback more likely than not in Sam Hal? absolutely yeah the tight end class i mean this this tight end class is just awesome there yeah the receiver

class is a class that's bad you know that that that's one down from what we've seen the last three years but this is one of the best tight end classes that i've i've seen when doing this for the last you know six seven years and into round two the thing is fleshed out you certainly are going to have your first round guys in kinkade and mayor uh most people on their board they have durno washington sort of floating between the first and second round but it wouldn't stun me if darned o washington and falls down a little bit. Like his receiving in college is not as good as people say. Like, he's a dominant blocker.

He's a third offensive tackle, essentially, as a blocker. I don't know that I've ever watched, you know, over those seven years, a tight end that is more dominant in that phase. But as far as a receiver, he doesn't win downfield. He only has two catches over 20 yards his entire career. And also people think of him as like this colossus when he has the ball in his hands. It's really difficult to tackle. He's actually not.

Like, they're not watching, I think, only a 10-minute tackle. and his forceman tackles, his entire career, which was less than a lot of these top guys that were talking about had last season alone. And then the other thing, he had a 10% drop rate. So Washington fans probably don't expect a guy like that to be available in round two, but it wouldn't stun me if he gets down there. But even if he doesn't, Luke Musgrave, the guy that I mocked for Washington in the two-rock. Oh, you mocked? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, you've got your second round. I'm looking at it right now. You've got Musgrave at 47 to Washington.

I do, yeah. You know, and I think. that's as far where you can get an immediate starter, whether it's musk, whether you luck out maybe in Washington falls down, or Sam Leporta. Sam Leporta is criminally underrated, the tight end from Iowa. He would have way more fans in the media if he hadn't been in the offensive

situation that he was in. He opened some eyes with his testing. He tested very, very well, got some people back to the tape, and he's won some more fans. But it was basically Sam Leporta against on that Iowa offense. You don't get in the worst offensive environment than that. And Sam Leporta was still winning. at all three levels of the field.

He's particularly dangerous in the intermediate range because he can open up the throwing window. He's very, very agile. So, like, out of the route breaks, you know, he can shake you there, opens up the throwing window. You hit him on the hands. That's where he gets super duper dangerous. His broken tackle rate is absolutely stupid.

He had 20 broken tackles last year, which I think is top five all time for a single season FPS tight end during the PFF grading era. He's a raging ball at the ball on his hand and very sudden movement, so it's hard to hit him. flush. That was as bad an offensive college power five team as we have ever seen. But it was one hell of a defense. And by the way, you know, the whole tight end Iowa thing, you know, Kittle, Fant, Hawkinson, you know, who's playing for your team now. It's just been a parade. I'm

sure I'm missing somebody as well. It's been a parade of tight ends out of Iowa over the years. All right. I've taken up too much of your time. So truly two more. Do you think it makes sense for Bejohn Robinson to be taken in the first round? I do, but I wouldn't do it until the back end of it, you know, the 20s or whatever. Some of this talk about all he could get into the top 10 or even in the first half of the first round. It's just a bridge too far for me because of the position he plays. I recognize what a good prospect he is. Fabulous, you know, and he can help you in all the different phases and whatnot.

But for me, he'd be more of the late end of the first round guy. as opposed to the top half. And you've got him comp to Edger and James. Last one for you, because this is what you do. Who's the player that you know you're going to be right about, that nobody's really talking about? So not a top, you know, five to ten pick, but somebody, you know, that we're starting to hear about,

but you really love and you think you're going to be dead right about. Well, I would have said Tadje Spears before because I was banging the drum for him all season, but now the jigs up with him. Everyone knows who Tosje Spears. So now he's being ranked in an appropriate range. So I've got to go a little bit deeper than that. I'd say if we're going to stick it running back,

Evan Hall is a kid who's way off people's radar, another criminally underrated guy who needs to go earlier than he's being projected now, and I think he's going to go higher, I think, than people think. But wherever he goes, he's going to be available on a discount. Evan Hall may be the most versatile receiving back in this entire class. He was top three in this class in terms of percentage of the snaps that he took out of the slot, for running back percentage of a snap that he took all wide, in terms of his A dot, in terms of the receptions, yardage, like everything like that,

the routes that he runs, whether it's all wide, whether it's, you know, out of the backfield, whether it's in the slot, they're very, very crisp. He knows what he's doing with that. He can change directions, everything like that. But he's also an underrated runner. I don't think people give him credit for this because of that crappy Northwestern situation we were talking about before. Yeah, Skoronski in front of you, but the other, you know, nine guys in the offense,

they all stunk. The rest of the offensive line stunk. the quarterback stunk, the receivers stunk, so the defenses were loading the box and stuff, and you get immediate penetration on haul. But what you got to see there was the lateral agility, the quick decision-making, the vision. He bounced outside really quick when he knows the dangers on the doorstep. But also when it's there for him, he can charge ahead real quick. He has that acceleration, and he has the agility in those really tight quarters,

very underrated player who's going to be available for a discount, and he's going to surprise people in the NFL. I loved him. and I didn't watch him a lot, but they played Maryland, and he had a phenomenal game, and a game Maryland won, and they should have won, needed to win that game, but he was incredible. It was impossible to bring down. And as far as Ty J. Spears goes, if you guys bet football and you understood how good Tulane was

throughout the year and what a big surprise they were, you probably finally caught up with him in the Cotton Bowl in that game against USC, where he rushed for over 200 yards. He was incredible in that game. There are some really interesting running backs, that's for sure. I love doing this with you. You're awesome. Thor Nystrom, at Thor Koo, T-H-O-R-K-U on Twitter. I will reach out to you one more time, I promise.

One more time, probably a few days before the draft, and if you can do it great, and if not, I understand, because I know you're busy that time, but I really enjoyed this. Thanks so much. I always love talking to you, Kevin. You reach out to me anytime. It's going to be a guess. All right. Perfect. Thor, Nystrom, everybody. Good draft talk here as we are three weeks away. Up next, the Wizards are tanking, and I love it. Scott Jackson will jump on with me.

That's right after these words from a few of our sponsors. This segment of the show brought to you by MyBooky. Go to myBooky.org. Use My promo code, Kevin D.C. And they'll allow you to do something that most books don't allow you to do. And that is cash in and cash out quickly. You just have to wager your deposit amount one time, not multiple times, and you're eligible to cash out. It's perfect for the Masters this weekend. If you just want to bet the golf this weekend and get out at the end of the weekend, go to mybooky.

orgie.org, use my promo code, Kevin D.C., and they'll take good care of you. Joining me right now is my good friend Scott Jackson. Of course, Scott has been a part of the radio station and been on the podcast before at Jackson Sports on Twitter. I was thinking about you. I was actually talking to Doc earlier today, which of course is always a trip. And we were talking about the Wizards, and he started to give me this thing where he goes,

look, my take isn't about how they're tanking on purpose for the first time. It's that they're better when they're tanking. I'm like, yeah, I don't know if, you know, a team with Goodwin, Davis, and Gill are going to win more than like 20 games or 15 games in a season. But beyond that, like, I was legitimately excited as the news started to come out. Look, we've seen this now for a few weeks as players have been rested and whether it's, you know, all three, you know, Kuzma and, and Porzingas and Beal are just two out of the three. But last night, it was everybody. six, their top six players all set. So an intentional now trying to lose games, tank games. I wanted to ask you, I don't remember Ted signing off on this in the past. Do you?

Well, I think there was a time when after the arena stuff went wrong, right, and all that. And when John Wall was really young, you know, once he got in the fold where they didn't win, you know, and they weren't really going anywhere. We all kind of knew they were spinning their wheels. I think, you know, at that point, that was with a rebuild with starting. But I think that was right prior to Ted, right? That was prior to the ownership change. But I think it kind of messed in together because remember,

I think one of the last acts of the Poland family was Irene winning the lottery for them with John Wall. But, yeah, I mean, that part they were kind of into. I think Ted's first full season maybe was the Brad Beal draft, you know, was that 2012-ish around that time? Yeah, 2012. Well, yeah, because, yeah, the year before that was... Yeah, yeah, that was all that talk. So, yeah, I think it was around that time.

So, yeah, I mean, this is really... And I don't even, you know, it's funny because this is like, you know, like they say quiet quitting goes on in the world now. This is like quiet tanking by the Wizards because they didn't want to do it all year. They fought it, they fought it, they fought it, they fought it, they fought it, so everybody were trying to win. And then I think a couple injuries, and I think, you know, some of these are legit things that popped up and it's just like, okay, well, at this point, what's,

you know, what are we doing here, you know? Denny, your ankle hurts fine to sit down for a couple games. And this is how you do it again. It's not Wes Unseld, you know, telling him to break the huddle, one, two, three tank, or one, three Cancun. He's like, he's like, look, you know, he's trying to work with what he has, but you just take away with, take away what he has, you know, more G-League players than NBA players. And, you know, it was a little bit too late, unfortunately. I think, you know, for those who have been falling to tank, you know, the lottery numbers and all this stuff, if they would have done this a week or two before, you know, who knows? I mean, maybe they had a shot at one of the top four spots.

You know, now they're just kind of hoping things fall into place and maybe you get at that five spot, you know, maybe you get those chances. Because I think, you know, I know you've discussed this in your show, but now it's the top three teams of the same odd, you know, and it's not that big of a dip from, you know, teams four to five even. So there's a real benefit to being in the top five in terms of, you know, worst record and have an opportunity here, especially in a draft that a lot of people are pumping up.

And I think, as we've seen with the Wizards, they do a lot better when they're picking extremely high versus, you know, middle to late in the draft because that's really where they've missed the most. Yeah, for those that don't understand how the lottery works, the top, the worst three teams have an equal chance, a 14% chance in the lottery to get the number one pick overall. Then the fourth worst team is at 12.5% and the fifth worst team is at 10.5%. The Wizards actually have a chance now. if they lose out to be the fifth worst team. And that's significantly better than where they were. That's like twice the chance than where they were like a month ago. So this is the right strategy for sure, especially in a draft that has maybe, you know,

a franchise altering player at number one and some pretty good players in the first, you know, four or five potentially. What do you think right now of the franchise, though? I was talking a little bit, Scott, on radio this morning about how this is the first year and eight years that the caps won't be in the playoffs. They were eliminated last night. So, you know, you had eight straight years and you've had a consistent playoff spring, you know, caps in a best of seven. It only went somewhere one of those many years, but still, they were always in it with a chance.

And Ted said when he signed Ovechkin to that long-term contract, hey, we're going to be in the playoffs every year and we're going to have a chance. because this sport, you know, when you get to the postseason, tends to be a little bit random. So he kind of fulfilled that promise. But as a wizard's owner, this has been a disaster. And the only thing that has saved him and the learners and anybody else in town is Snyder. What do you think of his ownership? And what do you think he should do with respect to Tommy and Wes Hunsell Jr., who, by the way, it was announced or reported yesterday by Josh Robbins at the Athletic,

that he's coming back next year, not that I didn't think he was coming back. but officially he's coming back. Where are we with Ted's ownership of the Wizards? Well, it is a tough one because, remember, he was owner-in-waiting for a significant period of time. He really had a playbook to understand what not to do by watching A-Pole in their regime. I just kind of feel like it's been a continuation in this regard.

It's a business model, which is, yeah, you know, in the playoffs, at least get a couple home games, really not building towards a championship are going to make the bold moves to get towards, you know, the point where you're really trying to be at the top part of the, of the NBA, you know, Eastern Conference, and it's always just been good enough to get in. And then when Tommy got hired, he said, look, we're not going to go about that anymore.

We're trying to, you know, we're trying more than just to be, you know, the eighth seed or whatever. And, of course, this is prior to the play in and all this goofiness that we've had in the NBA. Now they have that. Obviously, they have not, you know, fulfilled that at all. I mean, they've actually gone backwards since the Ernie firing. in terms of results, which is interesting, because everybody was so sure he was the problem. You know, and I think, again, I just think it's been a business.

They've got a great thing going there. I mean, they've got a sports book in there. They've got all these other things popping, a lot of the other interest. You know, the gaming business apparently is booming, you know, with the video games. I know you're big into that. I'm not so much. Yeah, I'm really big into the e-sports teams that Ted owns. Yeah, the e-sports.

But, you know, look, it's just the one that we care the most about the Wizards is not progress forward. And, you know, until, I mean, God, until the last week, we really thought Johnny Davis might have been, you know, we really thought this could have been like the worst pick and the history of first-round picture, D.C., but thank God he's come back. It is mentally well and physically looks like an NBA player now, at least. I mean, I don't know how great he's going to be, but at least he looks like, okay, you didn't completely blow that, so that's been a positive.

But yeah, I mean, overall, it's been bad. I mean, and, you know, I really had some high hopes for some of the things they were doing. But, you know, if you really look back on that search for GM that year, I mean, there was a lot of names thrown out, right? I mean, you know, Tim Connolly was even brought in for, you know, an interview and maybe a low-ball offer, and he's a highly thought of guy in the league. He's got worked here and grew up in your organization. You know, I think the West until junior pick, you know,

they hired the time was fine. but I think we're seeing now, you know, with the way this team structured with the veterans and, you know, trying to find the right pieces to fit around Brad Beale, who has a contract that obviously he's not that player. He's not an easy job, but it's probably one better suited for a veteran head coach at this point. But, you know, I think they're going to ride with West's the report today, which doesn't shock me, which I would think means Tommy's back. And, you know, they're going to get the band back together.

But, yeah, it's been a huge disappointment. I really, you know, I remember covering the team back in the day, that, you know, they Paul was here, and, you know, there was a lot of frustration at times with the way they did things. But, you know, the last, you know, that group with the big three, the real big three that we actually had here with, you know, Arenas and Jameson, and, you know, when Karam was part of it or when Larry Hughes was part of it. You know, that team was at times, you thought, had it somewhere. Obviously, they bottomed out after really just one second round appearance and we're just the one, you know, and the one and done. But, you know, a lot of that was LeBron James not helping matters there. And I think we had a good feeling for a while. while there with Wall and Beal. And obviously the injuries with John and some of the off-the-court stuff, they just had enough with it. And, you know, that's fine. But, you know, I think there

was a couple moments where they probably could have moved on for Brad that they didn't or should have tried to at least and embrace the idea of just restocking here. And instead, they doubled down. And I think it's been very important to this owner to have a player that is like a all-time player in the franchise's history has been here from start to finish, which you don't have a lot of. Let's be honest, because of the Bullets and Wizards. Not many of those guys. So and I think it's hurt them, and it's going to make it tougher. They're probably going to give Kuzma whatever he wants in free agency. They could have shopped him probably before the deadline

and probably got a pretty good return on him. Porzingis could opt out for more money if he wants to, or we could opt in either way. It's a lot of money for three guys that haven't played A enough the last several years and B haven't shown you any capability of actually being the top end of the Eastern Conference. So I just think it's a barrier to go-round to nowhere right now. Yeah, I mean, you know, where you started that answer about Ted, it really is kind of the truth that Ted's interest is more in eking out a profit than, you know, doing what it might take to have a chance at a winner.

Because the, you know, the signing of Beal, you know, that's, you know, I think we all felt that way at the time and it's going to look like a horrible, horrible. signing. I mean, Bradley was hurt this year. Look, there are a lot of reasons this year went south, and I do think injuries were a part of it, because I think it's as talented a team as they've had in a few years. And if you had told me before the year started that Porzingis was going to be as good as he was and around and healthy enough to play as much as he was, I would have said before the season, they got a chance to win 44, 45 games and maybe a series. You know, back to where we were, you know, a few years ago, where three out of four years under Randy Whitman, they won. one ace, or three out of four years, including, I guess, Scott Brooks.

They won a series and they were really close to the Eastern Conference finals. But I think Ted's, I think his mindset with this NBA thing is we got to make money. And, you know, and it would be nice if I had a GM that was good enough to bring in and put pieces around a player like Beal who may not be the best in the league but is really good. and we can have like six or seven home dates when we get to April and May. Maybe not a championship team, but at least win a series and have, you know, like they did for that stretch of three out of four years with Whitman and with Brooks, where you had back-to-back series with, you know, five or six home games. Yeah, I mean, I think that's kind of what they, whether they're going to ever admit to that publicly, which I'm sure they won't.

It sure is what they've done. And, you know, it's unfortunate that they continue to operate in that direction because, as you know, the middle doesn't work in the NBA, you know. This isn't a place where stars are going to wake up and go get me there, you know. And until that moment happens, you're going to have to rely on your GM to make amazing traits. I think Tommy's made some really good traits, by the way. You know, I think the one, obviously, the best one was getting the wall out of here. Yep. West work out of here.

turned into the best to get Westbrook out of here that brought in all those guys from the Lakers that stocked them pretty nicely. I mean, I think the draft picks have hurt them for sure. I mean, it feels like they've been very safe when they look for in a player. You know, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with character because there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. But, you know, sometimes you've got to look for the upside guy and the guy that's got a little bit more athleticism and, yeah, maybe it's a little bit of a risk. But they just, they seem a little scared of that right now. and I think it's shown with what they've gotten in return.

And, you know, we'll see, you know, again, what Davis turns out to be. Obd's at his moment. You know, Kisper's solid, but, you know, I think he'd be a great player if I, you know, if I had a championship team and, you know, if I had a real big three, and he was part of it, but you really don't. And that's a frustrating thing. And what you hit was so true about Prisengas, you finally got a year where he was really healthy.

And, you know, and you couldn't take advantage of it. And that's the other concern with Brad, and this is a dog gravity, game in the league that he had a durability issue. And suddenly these last few years, I mean, he's not playing at time. And this is, you know, obviously a big problem for the league. I just saw this stat today about all stars and, like, you know, in terms of games played percentages. And as the season goes on, it gets worse, you know, by the end of the year.

I mean, ESPN's got an ice piece up on it right now, but it's really frustrating. And, you know, NBA is not an easy business. It's just, and it's not one of these leagues where it's like the NFL and you can get quit, you and you're not going to get things fixed quickly, you know, because you have somebody rounds in the draft and the battle of attrition and all that kind of stuff. The NBA, you really have to have stars and real stars and invest in those guys and hope that they can get guys to come along with them,

and the Wizards haven't been able to do that. No, their only chance, because it's now kind of proven, right, that, you know, the top-level free agents don't want to come here for whatever reason. They have to get lucky in the draft. And to get lucky in the draft, you've got to keep swinging with higher picks. I understand where Kauai was picked, and that was the Jan Vesley draft. I know where Janice was picked, but more often than not, starting this year,

you know, top five pick chance at a lottery, you know, who knows? Maybe this is the year. Maybe they get lucky and they end up getting Wemignan and you can start all over. But if we have an offseason where they, you know, aren't able to sign Kyle Kuzma, and by the way, I don't even know if I'm in favor of it anymore, because I was kind of in favor of if you don't think there's a chance that he's going to be a part of something where you're going to win at least 47, 48 games next year and have a chance to win a series or two, where you've got to trade them. And now here we are, and they're tanking at the end, and who knows where they'll end up in the draft.

But do you think they should pay Kuzma or not? Yeah, I mean, look, I would have liked to see him before the deadlights. I think there was a value for him at that point. I mean, the problem with the off-season sign and trade usually are you're getting less value, right? Like, you're just basically, because the guy's telling you, I don't want to be here. And so you have to take less, and everybody knows it. You know, that's a tough part of it. You know, and the other thing is, like, will they really have any cap space if they do it?

I've got to be honest, the new CBA. I was trying to go through it and understand it the other day. It's the lot to bite into actually have Chris Pelt's coming on the radio or they're trying to help us with it. But, you know, I don't know if it's worth it. I know people like him, but he's popular. I wonder about the chemistry of that crew. I mean, at times it looks like Bradley's not happy with some of the things that go on there and, you know, with the way the offense is run.

And, you know, there's just a lot of things I don't know from the inside about how people's feeling darnment. It hurts the stuff during the year, but you just never know. And it kind of looked like it on the court at times. And, you know, it is tough. And we're probably, I don't even know how many years in a row we talk about your defense, defense, and, you know, they show glimpses of it for a few nights, and they never can play consistently, which is really frustrating. And really, when you look at it, Kevin, they're like, you know,

they're not that great offensively either in the big picture. I mean, I know they put up 128 on the loss the other night, but there's still, like, bottom third of the league when it comes to offense. I mean, you know, 10 years ago, these would be a lot of points, but nowadays, you know, teams have scored a lot more. All right. Let's talk other NBA since I have you on. Did Embed clinch the MVP last night?

with his 52 out of the team's 103, where Doc Rivers basically said, he's your MVP. Who do you have as the MVP? Him or Yokic or Yonis? I would go with Deme. I mean, probably Yonis, I think. What is he coming up?

I mean, if we're in the new system, I think he's probably going to qualify, right, in terms of the game played. The new system being 65 games, yeah, in the new CBA. Yeah, he might hit it. But anyway, I don't think that, I'm not sure if that kicks in this year or not.

anyway. But yeah, I would say Embed, man. I like Embeddeed a lot. There's a lot of things to like about him. You know, the fact that he called himself a process is the first and foremost, but the fact that he can play. And, you know, people called him a dog early in his career for not being in shape and beat, you know, had bad, you know, nutritional habits and he just worked himself into a stud, you know. And I really, you know, I've been saying throughout the season, I really want to see Milwaukee, Boston, you know, again at a conference finals. But, you know, I would have a problem to see in the six or either against those teams. I mean, I also like, you know, I like what it beats up, but I also say that that really was so down on James Hardin last year. The fact that he's

kind of come back and given a damn, I think, has been a nice thing to see this year as well for them. And, you know, he, but yeah, for me, I would have to see MVP. You know, I don't know what the voters will end up to do up, but I think he's doing a lot. And it has been, it probably was overlooked for a couple of days. Hardin ends up being the guy that actually looks like the smartest of the three between Kyrie and Kevin Durant because he realized faster than anybody. This ain't going to work with this dude. I'm out of here, and he's in a much better place.

So I can't wait for these NBA playoffs. I think this is going to be one of the most wide open, certainly in the Western Conference. It's going to be fascinating to see how that all plays out. Let's start there. Right now, who's your pick to come out of the West? man that's it's hard man because i mean for a while it's feeling really good about memphis before ja had the breakdown or whatever we're going to call that and obviously you know he's back and he's playing

well again i mean you know i'm still surprised phoenix hasn't been better uh but we really haven't seen them with gerrant you know at this point one six or seven in a row with him or four in a row with him and they're rolling with him now yeah yeah but i mean for an extended period of time i still think they're a factor. But the West is the hardest to me. I think the East is down to three teams, maybe just two teams really would look at it. But I think the West is hard. It's hard to take Denver seriously. As much as it would be great. You know, it's like great team ball. But we've seen it over and over again when you get to this late in the season. It doesn't always work for them. But maybe this is the year it does. I don't know. I mean, it's probably their best chance.

And if it doesn't work, I'd be fascinated to see what their next step is. If Golden State gets Wiggins back and it looks like they're going to, do you give them a chance to to come out of the West. They're in fifth place right now. After last night, they're up to fifth. That would be a first round series with Phoenix, by the way, which would be incredible. If they can finish six, then they're probably favored over Sacramento in the first round. But do you give Golden State a chance? Oh, absolutely. I would give a chance. I mean, the Wiggins thing's huge. I mean, as we saw last year, if he's okay, you know, physically, mentally, I think they've got absolutely a chance.

I hate to admit it, but, you know, what if is LeBron? physically having the tank. The Lakers will be a factor. I hate it because of Walker. I got to hear him, you know, it was purple and black, purple and gold crap all the time. But, you know,

and it's kind of funny because they were like fighting for the play in for so long and other at the moment where they're going to get the legitimate part of the playoffs. But yeah, they still worry me. I mean, I definitely can see somebody

beyond the top three in the West making a run up. I mean, if you, I didn't even think about that, Phoenix potentially with Golden State in the first round. I mean, that would, that would suck in a lot of ways because I'd actually like to see them play later. Right. I mean, Memphis is playing well after getting job back.

I just don't see them winning three straight series against the competition level they'll face. I still have some belief in the Clippers if Paul George comes back. Like, that could be a phenomenal first round matchup if it's the Clippers and the Kings, if George is back. And then the Lakers are a massive wild card too. look at they're rolling right now, but they play the Clippers tonight, and I don't think AD's going to play. He can't go back to back, and they still might have to come out of the playing tournament next week. And then in the East, I actually think it's Milwaukee.

I don't know why I don't believe in Boston. I should after last year, but I think the Bucks come out of the East. Do you have a pick there? Yeah, I would like the Bucks last year, too. So did I. You know, they game up short. You know, Middleton's injuries are always a factor at this time of year. I just look at them.

I still think Giannis is the single best player, most impactful player, when he's out there offensively and defensively. Their defense is good. I like booted holes are a lot. As a coach, I think he does a great job, you know, getting them to buy a defensively. A lot of their offenses we saw last night when you watch the Wizards game comes off their defense. Yeah, I would still give them a slight edge as well.

And I think the fact that it's, even the last. year, you know, Boston showed they can win on the road. I think the fact that they would have halt court over the Celtics is a big deal. You know, it's really interesting, too, is Brooklyn, you know, after, you know, Kyrie gone, the trade of Durant, they have hung in there. They've played really well. And I remember Legler telling me, if Durant had stayed, Brooklyn would have had a chance to win 50 and be in the mix. They weren't going to beat Boston or Milwaukee in a best of seven, but they were going to be a team that, was going to be really hard to eliminate.

But the team he's on now is obviously, I think they might be the favorite right now. I don't know if Denver's the favorite or Phoenix is the favorite out of the West, but it should be a great NBA players. I think that's a good point about Brooklyn. And it's cool to see that they had people that were ready to step up in those roles and play big time once they got the heavy salaries out of there. So they're in a nice spot. But yeah, it's going to be fun. I think, you know, I said it this year's against double-A tournament. and felt wide open and obviously played out.

Hopefully the NBA played that that way. Because as you know, too often the NBA playoffs is rather chalky and obvious. Yep. And the chalk this year are going to be seeds that don't have home court advantage. That's what's going to be interesting about it. Like Sacramento, Memphis, Denver could all be underdogs in not necessarily, well, could be a first round series, but definitely when you get to the second round. Thank you for doing this.

Appreciate it. No problem always good talking to Good stuff from Scott Good stuff from Thorne Nystrom on the show today Back tomorrow with Tommy