The Kevin Sheehan Show - Hopkins Out!

Episode Date: October 20, 2021

Kevin opened with the surprising news that Dustin Hopkins was cut this morning by the Washington Football Team. He had former Terp & Skins' kicker Jess Atkinson on to discuss. Also on the show, Andrew Brandt joined Kevin to talk about why Dan Snyder still owns the team. Kevin finished up with some thoughts on the upcoming Wizards' season.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it, but you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Cheyenne Show. Here's Kevin. From 42 yards out, hers it, live. Missed it to the left. No points for Washington. Well, that kick by Dustin Hopkins Sunday against the Chiefs,

it turns out that was his last field goal attempt, his last kick, period, because they didn't score even a touchdown. after that missed field goal the rest of the way. That's it. The stunning news as we start this podcast this morning is that Dustin Hopkins has been waived by the team, cut by the team, and Chris Blewett, who they had on the practice squad two weeks ago, then cut him from the practice squad, then re-signed him yesterday to the practice squad.

They have now signed him to the main roster. This is what happens, and this is why I love doing the podcast. I love doing the podcast, period. it. Love doing it. But it's great to have the opportunity after the radio show to also, you know, do a show with typically information that breaks because it happens all the time after the radio show ends and the podcast begins. And I'll be honest, this one blows me away. I am shocked that they actually released Dustin Hopkins. Now, a 42-yarder, that is hurtful to a coaching staff. Like if he had missed a 55-yarder, I wonder whether or not he'd still be the kicker.

He missed a 42-yarder. That is a chip shot up here in this league, as coach Joe would say. You can't miss a 42-yarder. And that was really a momentum killer as well. I know they lost the game 31-13, and they weren't going to win that game, even if he had made that field goal. But that field goal would have kept the momentum going. It would have built a 16 to 10 lead in that game. And at that moment, Kansas City had just been self-destructing offensively. And it was as if that was a big boost to them, and they took over and they ran off 21 unanswered and won the game 31-13. Again, you know, a defense that gives up what they gave up,

an offense that is struggling to move the football against a bad defensive team. It wasn't more likely than not going to win that game. But I guarantee you that that was the final straw because it was a 42-yarder. and they were, but I'm still shocked. I'm still very surprised because, as I've said many times before, and many of you have mocked me for it, which is fine, and I understand it, the ball does explode off his foot, and coaches love a ball that elevates quickly. And in a workout or in a game, you see the kicks he makes, and they're like, wow,

that guy can kick. And by the way, I think Hop's going to get picked up pretty quickly. you know, Minnesota, Indy, Dallas, you know, all teams that could potentially use Dustin Hopkins sooner rather than later. He will come in and he will work out for somebody or he will get signed to some sort of, you know, he'll work out for somebody and he'll blow him away in the workout. And they'll say, you know what, you're going to kick half your games in our home stadium, which is indoors, you know, in Indy or Dallas or Minnesota. and you're not going to kick on that shitty turf at FedEx Field, and you're going to get your confidence in the next 10 years of your career are going to be amazing.

It wouldn't shock me if it works out that way. But I've been frustrated with Hopkins for a while. While I've recognized his talent, I go back to 2016. You know, 2016 was a rough year for Dustin Hopkins. That was an opportunity for this football team to go back-to-back playoff years for the only time during the Dan Snyder era. And it was a good enough team offensively, for sure. That was a very good offensive football team in 2016. The defense was as bad as it gets, probably worse than the defense, certainly talent-wise, worse than the defense this year. But they

were, they ended up being, I think, one of the worst third and seven or longer defenses, or they were the worst of modern football going back to the merger in 1970. But what really hurt them that year was Dustin Hopkins, who ended up having a rough 2016 and missed some big kicks. He missed a kick in Detroit in the game that they lost by three. He missed the short chip shot in overtime to put away the Bengals in London. That should have been a win. And then he missed twice on Thanksgiving Day against the Cowboys in a game that they lost by five, 31 to 26. So long before you got to that season finale and the Kirk interception to Rogers Cromarty that ended the game,

you had Dustin Hopkins who could have already put Washington into the postseason at that point. And he hadn't. And I hated that year. I thought it was, you know, look, they weren't going to do anything with that defense in the postseason anyway. But they should have been a playoff team that year. and Hopkins was a big reason why they were not. You know, he's made some big kicks over the years, and I understood why they liked him, and you can certainly do worse than Dustin Hopkins.

This year, you know, he's 12 or 14. He's 85.7 percent middle of the league on field goals, but he missed those two PATs. He missed the 42-yarder on Sunday. And, you know, if you just view this in terms of just a football decision, and that missed 42-yarder, had Ron Rivera and Nate Katzer and the team ready to move on from Hopkins, even though he seemed all over Hopkins a few weeks ago when he was first criticized after the game in which he missed two extra points. He was sticking with him come hell or high water.

He had had that experience, remember Ron talked about with Graham Ganoe, and they kept him and Ganoe ended up being a really good kicker for them. But they're going to go with Chris Blewett. And Hopkins is gone. I'm really, I'm sitting here because the news just broke moments ago. I am very surprised. Jess Atkinson, Jess Atkinson, the longtime kicker, you know, long ago for the Washington football team, the Redskins back then, the Maryland kicker for many years back in the 80s. Jess is a friend.

Jess is going to join us. We'll talk some kicking with a former NFL kicker here momentarily. But I'm really surprised. I really am that they cut him. When I saw that break, I'm like, whoa. And there are a couple of things that came to mind. So number one is they just had it. Can't miss a 42-yarder up here, as Coach Joe would say.

Number two is off the news or off the comments from Ron Rivera earlier in the week about a different approach, that it may be a time for him to take a different approach, was Hopkins an example that was, something Ron Rivera wanted to make. You know, hey, if you don't get with it here, we'll cut you. Well, I hope not, because cutting the kicker should never be the example used to warn others. He's the kicker for crying out loud. If the goal is to send a message, you fire, cut, or bench somebody of significance.

I'm not saying the kicker isn't a significant part of the team, but it's not the example you typically use to make sure that the other team, the rest of the team is sent some sort of message. Like beware, we just cut hop. I mean, there were reasons you could cut hop, you know. And I'm sure that Hopkins wasn't necessarily an example of one of those players who was undisciplined. He's a kicker.

How can kickers be disciplined or undisciplined on a field goal attempt or a PAT attempt? Maybe on kickoffs. I don't know. I would probably bet that this wasn't the message sent, even though you could connect the dots from his comments earlier in the week and then look towards what he said about Hop just a few weeks ago and say he needed to do something big at two and four to shake it up

to let everybody know he was serious. You could go that route. I just don't think you use the kicker for that. I think they got frustrated on Sunday after he missed badly on a 42-yarder, a kick that should be like a 98% probability in this league. You know, certainly 95%. And it came at a crucial stage, I'm sure they think, in the game with a 13 to 10 lead and a chance to extend that to 16 to 10, you know, in the third quarter.

You know, it wasn't in the first quarter. It was in the third quarter. And Kansas City had not shown much life at that point. Like, you know, there was at least a thought I had it that maybe they can hang in there. I don't know if they can win the game, but maybe they can hang in there and at least cover in the game, which they did. So anyway, Dustin Hopkins released. Chris Blewett is now your kicker. And that's a, you know, that's not a household name.

It's a crazy name and the jokes will write themselves on Chris Blewett. But Blueitt last, Blueitt has never kicked in an NFL game before. He last played for the University of Pittsburgh in 2016. In four years at Pitt, he made 69.6% of his field goals, and he missed four extra points in his last two seasons combined. So they must like something with Blewett in the workout, although I'll remind everybody if you didn't know this. They actually cut him from the practice squad after they signed him,

and then they re-signed him yesterday to the practice squad, and then they elevated him today. On tomorrow's podcast, we'll hear what Ron. Rivera said because he'll hold a presser after practice later on this afternoon. So we'll get more information as to what the decision was based on. Again, you could be cynical and I don't think it's even cynical based on connecting the dots from earlier in the week and think that Ron is going to start sending messages on kickers using his kicker to the rest of the team. I just think you don't use the kicker. I think if he's really going to send a message and it's going to be a

approach. Somebody could get fired or somebody could get benched or somebody when we come to Sunday is going to see a significant playing time reduction. But I'm surprised, very surprised on Hopkins. I think that he will get signed quickly, as mentioned, and I think it's very possible, given his talent in the finicky nature of these kickers that he could end up having a real successful run in his next stop or the stop after that. I think a guy like this, that is going to continue to get opportunities in a league that has seen a lot of, you know, this is my perception at this point. I don't know if statistically I'm accurate on this.

I'm sure somebody's written about the missed kicks, but it certainly seems like there have been a ton of miss kicks this year. And really 12 of 14 on field goals, with one of them being 50 plus, not bad. You know, he finished last year strong on field goals, but he missed that PAT in the Seattle game. That was a killer in that season. Seattle game missing that extra point. It cost them a chance at overtime because they drove the ball late. Dwayne Haskins was quarterbacking that day. They drove the ball late and had to, you know,

go for the touchdown because he had missed an earlier extra point. It would have been 20 to 17 had he made the extra point and instead it was 20 to 15. They had to, you know, settle for going for a fourth down and missing and they lost that game to Seattle. A 42-yarder though, I bet you anything that that the 40 missing a kick that short, really they looked at each other and said, we can't make excuses for him anymore. We got to try somebody else. We can't miss 42-yarders. You know, in a key, that was a key kick in the moment.

I don't know if it would have made a big difference in the final result of the game, but it would have given them a six-point lead, you know, as you were approaching midway through the third quarter in that game. And so, you know, again, miss it from 50. Okay, miss it from 56, chance to go up six with, you know, eight minutes to go in the third quarter. And by the way, he missed it badly. And at this point, remember the operation, which he sort of blamed early in the year. And, you know, they're still getting used to the operation during preseason with Cameron Cheeseman, you know, the long snapper.

With the new long snapper, well, they should have been, you know, in rhythm at this point in the year. All right. When we come back, Jess Atkinson is going to join us. a kicker. And we will get to also later in the program, Andrew Brandt's going to join us. And I'm going to ask Andrew Brandt, longtime NFL executive, what the NFL sees in keeping Snyder as the owner and why they're doing it. We'll do that a little bit later on right after these words from a few of our sponsors. I welcome on to the podcast, Jess Atkinson. I would like to say the kicker from my youth, but it's not true. Even though I was a mere freshman when he was kicking as a senior in college park for Bobby Ross's first team in college park,

a season that was really exciting and ended in the Aloha Bowl against the University of Washington. Just was such a good kicker in college. And then many of you remember him kicking for Washington, especially in the 86 season when they got all the way to the NFC championship. game against the Giants and lost to that great Giants team on that windy day in the Meadowlands, a day which, by the way, just so everybody understands, he did not attempt one kick. I just pulled up the box score on that game and did not miss a kick during that entire postseason with Washington either. And then, of course, it was the following season that he got

injured, broke his ankle, and that was it for Jess in the NFL. But I called you because, and I'll let everybody know this up front because I don't want people to say, well, Jess isn't even following the team. He's not following the team. In fact, he doesn't even know that much about Dustin Hopkins, the kicker that was just released. That's fine. I am curious, though, because you told me you're not really following football. You were such a big sports fan. You were such a huge Terps fan, obviously, as an alum. So why don't you pay attention to football anymore? great question great question uh i found other things that interested me more uh especially when i got out of television i i i did the the kind of behind the scene stuff and told sports stories for a long

time but was really just drawn to the people and and not necessarily the outcome of of any of the games and so that the more that went on and I just drilled down into the stories of the people, the games and how they turned out became just far less important, especially as I got old. Fair enough. Yeah. But some things never change, you know.

And hopefully it's interesting because we just were chatting a minute ago about Hopkins, and I bring up the, you know, his percentage. and yet you kind of reminded me, Kevin, that when it comes down to it, the kicker, the head coach has to trust the kicker to make the kicks when you need the points, right? And so that can kind of change the lens by which you look at a kicker if the coach doesn't trust, I mean, you know, you don't trust you. That's the foundation of it. Yeah, I mean, that probably sums it up more than anything else because even though you haven't been watching, you know, the truth is he is a very talented kicker. And I have said Jess over the last couple of years when people have said, why is he still our kicker? And I'll say because literally when you watch this dude and he's just practicing the ball, he's one of these kickers where the ball literally.

explodes off his foot. It gets immediate elevation. He's got a super strong leg. His kickoffs, he basically, especially unless there's weather or wind issues, he can kick it out of the end zone every time. But the ball gets immediate elevation. It gets up. It's never going to get blocked. And I think that coaches, special teams coaches and head coaches are probably wowed by that. what you kind of describe um the exact thing that that didn't work out for me with the redskins until they got desperate um which was i you know i because i was in a couple of camps with them and they brought in guys this is kind of as moseley was exiting mark was leaving and and they brought in guys that you know kick beautiful balls right like just beautiful balls and the only reason i i i i

got a chance is because they were down to their last chance with the playoffs and felt like they needed to make a change. But, you know, so that kind of describes that, right? But for long, for years and years, coaches get enamored with, like, what a ball looks like. And I will say, you know, Andy Poland called me the other day about Tucker's 66-yarder. Yeah. And, man, I'm in just awe of that trajectory, the flight of the balls that he kicks. I mean, it's just crazy how good they look.

And so what you're telling me is Hopkins is kind of the same. He just kicks a beautiful true ball. Yeah, I mean, even his misses, you know, if he pushes one a little wide right or if he sort of hooks one a little bit, the ball is up, you know, even on a 50s. yarder at the top of the upright. You know, it's not, you know, he's not, he's not hooking him. Now, the one he missed on Sunday, I think, was really the one in which they probably said, you can't miss a 42-yarder.

You know, Jess, in the NFL now, like, basically inside a 50, you got to be at 90% plus. And inside a 45, it's probably got to be at, like, 93% plus or 95. I mean, you just don't, you know, back in your day, you know, anything beyond. on 45 was, all right, you know, that was a long kick, but a 50-yard kick really isn't a long kick anymore. You're spot on with my era, which is why it's so different than today. The percentages you're just throwing around now are just crazy to me. And yet, every once in a while I'll go down a rabbit hole, so I confess why I don't follow

things. There are things that kind of catch my attention. have you watched the video of Belichick talking about long snappers? I don't think so. No, I don't think I've seen that. Check it out. It's one question from a guy that basically asks him, so is a long snapper really worth a roster spot?

And one of the reasons I went down this rabbit hole is because, And so in one of the TV shows that I did, I did a story on Bill's father. Right. Naval Academy. And, yeah, Naval Academy, Steve Belichick, legendary guy. And so kind of reconnected with Bill. And he's just been awesome. And so saw him up at NFL films not too long ago. I think it was preseason when they were up with the Eagles, right, near Philadelphia.

field. And he was actually telling me about the trajectory of the ball that his kicker had. And so, and we talked about a lot of other things. Anyway, I go down this rabbit hole, and Bill gives this just amazingly detailed, thoughtful. The answer is 10 minutes almost. And if you really think about it, the entire operation and these field goal percentages are kind of a result. result of just recognizing the importance of points and doing whatever you can to raise the level in order to get points when you need it. And he talked about not only the roster spot for the guy, but the part where, you know, Bostic was the snapper, right?

Yep. And if he gets hurt, you're just throwing somebody in there. The reason he got punters now doing it is because they, They can spend an entire practice practicing with those guys. So the operation just gets better. And, you know, kickers just, you know, for us, it was kind of a position of last resort. If you could play something else, you'd try to do that. But if you couldn't, it'd be a kicker.

Now, not so much like that, right? Those guys do it from a young age and are amazing at it. But anyway, check it out. I just Google this. and there's a lot written. It was just a month ago that he did this. He went, it was a 1,500 word discourse. It was described on long snappers off the top of his head. So that is something I just wrote it down. I'm going to keep this up and go back and read it. But, you know, the other thing too, right, over the years is many more indoor stadiums. The turf is much better. You don't

have stadiums. Actually, FedEx Field is probably the last stadium where the turf is really questionable, kickers don't like the grass. They don't like the stadium. But you just, I mean, that's played into the much higher percentages over the years, you know, in recent years as well. Great point. He actually, I left that part out. He actually mentioned that as a factor. And it resonated with me because, you know, growing up around here, I watched the redskins and knew it and knew everybody and all that stuff. First time I ever got to RFK was a playoff game. So it's late, it's December, it was against the Rams. And I walked out on the field, and like in between the hashes, Kevin,

like that shit was green dirt. Right. Like it was dirt. Yeah, they spray painted it. Yeah. And I was looking at it. I'm like, holy Toledo. Like, this is dirt.

Like, all of it. It was just spray painted green. Do you know, I'm sure you do know this? because now, you know, as you were talking, I wanted to see if my memory of why you got signed was true, and it was Max Zendahas. You know, all the Zendahas brothers. And Max was kicking for Washington in that 86 season as they were headed to the postseason. The Giants were really good. And he missed a bunch of kicks in Denver in the second to last week of the season. He missed, in fact, I'll pull up the numbers right now. he missed two field goals and missed an extra point in the game in Denver. And that was back when the extra points were just 20-yard kicks, not 37-yard kicks.

And so they signed you. You came in and in the final regular season game against the Eagles, you only had, you did not have a field goal attempt. You only had three extra points that you made. Your first field goals made came in a playoff game, a wild card playoff game against the Rams at RFK, and you, sir, your very first opportunity to kick field goals were four for four in that playoff game.

And you were off and running. And if you don't get injured in 87, you're a part of a – well, you were – you did get a Super Bowl ring, right? Didn't you? Yeah, yeah, it did. Yeah, because you kicked in what, the opener the following year or two games before you got hurt. Just like up into the second quarter, I think it was. Yeah. And that's it. Yeah, I didn't last very long. But that first game, yeah.

Yeah, of that first game the following year, which turned out to be the 87 Doug Williams' Super Bowl team over Denver. And it turned out that they ended up, you know, it was Haji Sheik, who ended up being the kicker for Washington that year. So, you know, you sort of hit on it. And I don't, you know, the whole trust thing, the only other reason people are contemplating or, or, you know, you sort of hit on it. And I don't, you know, the whole trust thing. The only other reason people are contemplating or. considering as a reason that Dustin Hopkins was released. And I just want to get your thoughts on it. So Ron Rivera said the other day as Washington fell to two and four. And disappointing two and four, too, Jess. They were supposed to be very good defensively. They're one of the worst defenses in the NFL. He keeps talking about maturity and discipline and doing your job. And he said on Monday, I may have to change my approach to this, you know, the way I'm coaching this team. and two days later he cuts the kicker. I don't think you really, I'm curious,

do you think any sort of message is sent to the rest of the locker room by cutting a kicker? Boy, I don't think that's a rhetorical question, but pretty close. I would be, I don't think so, right? I did again. I did read a little bit once you called me. The kid blew it. He was on like a practice squad.

He was on the practice squad. They cut him for the practice squad. Then they signed him back to the practice squad yesterday, and then they signed him to the actual roster today after they cut Hopkins. He's never kicked in the NFL. Okay. So, A, I can't imagine that's much of a message, because, you know, just because of the nature of the position.

But it is really interesting that, you know, a change in approach is warranted at this point. And, boy, it would be a great question as to, okay, if you're going to change course, like what exactly does that mean strategically, not just operationally, you've gotten here kicker, right? That'd be an interesting question to get an answer to. What is the new approach and why? Yeah, and the other thing just is that we see this all the time. It's such a confidence, psychological position, and we've seen many times in the past a kicker get cut by one place

and then go to another place and end up having a massively successful. run. Why does that happen? Boy, another great question. Not really, but thank you. No, no, I think at its essence, being a kicker is not about the flight of the ball,

how far you can kick or any of those kinds of things. It's much more about how resilient you are. and I think what winds up happening is, is that I'll speak for myself, I had to go through a lot to get the answer to that question of how hard I was willing to try in order to succeed. And that's a real thing for kickers, right?

Because it's an all or nothing game. You're the hero or the bomb. No other job in football is like that. And I'd always love Kipling's poem, that one line if you can trust yourself when all men doubt you, right? But make allowance for their doubting, too. So there's that line. But also, there's the other great line, if you can meet with triumph and disaster and treat those two impostors just the same, that if you can, you don't get too high, you don't get too low. and that part is really difficult, especially when you're young, right?

But there's one other piece of this. I wonder what you think of, Kevin, because I would say this to kickers, that when they come to me, not often, but occasionally. And I kind of frame it like this that we'd be on some field. I used to kick down at St. Alden's with an old guy named Dick Johnson that helped Nick Lowry. Right. Yeah, Nick Lowry. Long-time Chiefs Kicker. And so it was kind of look up at the trees and every leaf is a person and just know this about kicking. That it's different from any other position because let's say you're a cornerback for the skiing,

so the Washington football team there, right? So who's the best receiver in the league right now, Kevin? The best receiver in the league right now, it might still be DeAndre Hopkins. Let's just say that. So say that guy beats you for a touchdown. Well, when all the fans are booing you, the corner can look at everybody and say, hey, man, you try guarding that guy. Right? Yeah.

And it shuts him up pretty quickly. Whereas you miss a 42-yard field goal. Let's say you miss a 35-yard field goal. Well, there's a chance that at least 25% of the people in attendance can make that kick, right? And so suddenly, you're the one position that risks humiliation, not just failure, but, you know, abject humiliation. Hell, I guarantee you, Zade could kick a ball farther than Nina. There's no question. Well, that's because he – I remember that 50-yardry here.

Well, he fancies himself to be, like, capable of being a field goal kicker. Yeah, he set up a goalpost in his backyard. If they had a senior's tour, man, I think he'll kick it. You know, he is straight on. He's a straight on guy. Which is the most amazing thing in the world. I think he is. I mean, crush it.

All right. So anyway, so, but it takes a while to really understand that. that aspect of kicking because when it comes down to it, your job is to get the team points when they need them. And their expectations, especially now, right, because of how good everybody is, are incredibly high. Right. Last thing for you, because it sounds like you were on with Andy recently, and he asked you about it. I mean, a 66-yard-made field. The thing is, Jess, and you're not watching that much of the NFL, but it's now routine. on a given Sunday to see, you know, the team essentially now, the goal for field goal range

used to be like the 35, right? Get it to the 35 and we could try a 52, 53 yarder. Now it's basically like the 44, 43. You see 60-yard attempts, 58-yard attempts, 62-yard attempts all the time. All the time, you see it. It's a hell of a lot different, right? I mean, the 66-year-old. yarder. By the way, you know, it hit the crossbar and went over. I did watch it, yeah. Yeah. But, you know, we had that record of Tom Dempsey's 63 yard stand for so long. And now it's not unusual to see a 68, 69, 70-yard attempt. I think it was, well, I think Janikowski actually has the longest attempt ever. I think he tried a 76-yarder in a game. So that

would have been a while ago. But that has to amaze you because you're right. I mean, and I do remember this about you. You weren't the strongest leg kicker, but you know what? Coach Joe probably said, we can't miss any from back then from 40 or in. And Jess, I don't think you missed any from that distance. You were money from that distance. It's going to sell a few things. It's going to sound weird, but I actually never missed a kick with the skin. You'll go or extra point. and and yet to your point about distance, unheard of to me.

Like it's something I can't even comprehend, right? Like 66 yards. We, you know, I've done something in college way back in practice when you've got wind at your back and it's, you know, you get 50 attempts at it. A game, that's ridiculous. And it changes the nature of it to a certain extent, right? and it's kind of also the thing about Tucker,

which is the only thing I could think of was as a bit like Tiger Woods in his prime that how unusual is it and unheard of really that the guy who is the most accurate kicker also holds the record for the longest field goal.

Like that combination is usually mutually exclusive. but not with Tucker. You never missed a kick. It's true, including your final kick. You had a great run here, and it's too bad. You couldn't have been a part. I know we've talked about this in the past of the 87 team,

but you have a ring from that 87 team because you kicked in the opener that year, and you were phenomenal in the postseason the year before. I hope you're well. Thanks so much for the time, and let's chat soon. Always great to be with you, Kevin. I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did with Jess. I know he's not following the day-to-day of the Washington football team,

and I think I probably told him more about Dustin Hopkins than he ever knew. But I actually think he nailed the reason for Hopkins getting cut more than anything else, and that is ultimately the head coach and the special teams coach, you know, just lost trust and lost face. and Hopkins, and they were ready to try something new. And I think that 42-yarder Sunday did it. I really do. I think if the miss had been a long one, you know, into a crosswind, you know, that that would have been perhaps a different outcome for Hopkins this week anyway.

But I think a 42-yarder in the spot that he missed it, I think finally the trust had eroded. I think their faith in him had eroded to a point where they made a move. But I enjoyed catching up with Jess Atkinson. Up next, Andrew Brandt, I will ask Andrew why Dan Snyder still owns the Washington football team, right after these words from a few of our sponsors. A request to all of you that haven't subscribed to the podcast to do so. It doesn't cost you a thing. It really helps us.

Also, if you could rate us and review us, especially on Apple, Spotify, and Google. Rate us five stars, if you don't mind. Write a quick one-sentence review. That really helps as well. We welcome onto the podcast, Andrew Brandt. We've had Andrew on the podcast several times in the past. I would urge everybody, especially when you have these business stories or these legal situations or these league controversies in any sport, by the way, to follow Andrew on Twitter at Andrew Brandt.

He's a great follow when it comes to some of this stuff. Andrew, of course, longtime NFL executive in Green Bay. He's the executive director currently of the Morad Center at Villanova. and he hosts a podcast and writes a newsletter as well. I've been following you throughout this last week and a half or whatever it's been. I'll start with this. Why does Dan Snyder still own this Washington football team? Yeah, if I had the answer to that question, I'd be doing a lot more than talking to you.

I guess I'd be figuring out the whole NFL system. We don't know. You know, I've learned about this investigation over the last week things I didn't even know. I mean, I kind of heard there was a fine over the summer, but the investigation to the toxic workplace at Washington ended with an oral, not written, oral report from Attorney Beth Wilkinson, I assume, to the commissioner. that resulted in a $10 million fine to the organization and transfer of ownership operations to the wife of the owner. And that's it. So what's coming out of these emails over the past two weeks, very selective, as we'll talk about, emails released, is from another lawsuit or another situation between former president, Bruce Allen and the team,

that is crazily out of this defamation suit based in India, started by a suit by a former partner of Snyder, Dwight Schar, and that's complicated. But this is coming from a difference. I assume that these emails were coming from the Washington Football Club investigation, but it's not even that. So that's been resolved. Like, I'd be shocked if the NFL goes back and, says, you know, in addition to that 10 million, we're going to do something else.

Take the franchise away. No. Why it's not happening, Kevin? I don't know. I mean, the NFL is extremely political. Dan Snyder seems to hold some sway. He hired Bruce Allen, who's a master politician, no longer there, but we've seen some of his interpersonal relationships within the league office. And we are where we are, where somehow some way, The only thing coming out of this really is throwing John Gruden under the bus, while others seem to survive fine. Yeah, I mean, you know, we're following, obviously, the day-to-day specifics. And, you know, Dan's pissed at Dwight Schar and perhaps Bruce Allen for this smear campaign that came out before the original, the first post-story, you know, with all of the sexual harassment allegations, the miscarriage.

misogynistic culture. And these rumors were things like Dan's tied to sex trafficking and Jeffrey Epstein. It actually made the original story, which is terrible. You know, as a standalone entity, it almost made it look benign, you know, the rumors that were coming out. And so, you know, so we've, we followed that in the Arizona thing, but you said something and you said he's got sway. What sway does he have? Well, I say he's got sway. because I'm trying to figure out an answer to your question how he's not only surviving but thriving. And the only thing I can come up with is he's got sway, right? Because this is not really a decision made by the commissioner.

It's a decision made by owners who he seems to have good relationships with. I know he's close with Jerry Jones, who may be the most influential owner, not sure. And that seems to keep him going. Now, I've pointed out the past couple weeks, the precedent, I'm a lawyer. I see the Carolina Panthers owner, a longtime respected figure in league circles. Jerry Richardson pushed out in Carolina for behavior that was not good. But, again, it's hard to compare degrees of thin, right, Kevin? So we heard about foot rubs.

We heard about some weird stuff with women in the office. Yet we've heard about some pretty bad stuff in Washington, too. So I can't say I know exactly what went on with Jerry Richardson and why he was pushed out of the league. But there's nothing resembling anything like that in terms of discipline for Snyder. and maybe it's the fact that this all went on kind of below him, even if he knew about it, whereas Richardson engaged in some of this activity himself. Yeah, I've said in the last few weeks, and I think I said it when the investigation came out, and nothing really other than this wrist slap of a $10 million fine,

and the league summary of it, which, by the way, was rather harsh. I mean, they talked about a very toxic culture. that Dan presided over. But we all wanted to see the investigation in the detail. But I've said before, you know, it's very possible that he's just a terrible owner. And they can't take his team away from him because he's a terrible owner and maybe even, you know, someone who treats people very poorly, which we've heard over the years. And there was even this, you know, discussion of bullying and intimidation. You know, he may, it may be, Andrew, he's not a racist.

He's not a homophob. He's not a transphobe. He's not a true misogynist. He hasn't committed sexual harassment or sexual assault. He's just a terrible owner. That may be the reason. I mean, it's possible that that's the reason, right? Yeah, I mean, as you know, you're talking to a diehard then Redskinned fan growing up.

Yeah, and I was, I've lost my fandom. Now, that's partly in good part because I worked for another team for 10 years, and they're kind of my team. But, yeah, I mean, I hear so often from my friends and family there that they're frustrated. Yeah, I don't know what to say. I mean, you know my saying, the business of football always wins. And even though fans aren't showing up in droves, business is booming, obviously, for the league in general. But, you know, that team. And listen, I've had Jason Wright on my podcast.

I've talked to him. I'm very impressed. So, you know, they seem to have hired the right guy. The coach seems to have calmed the football side, even though they're not doing well. And at least that part of it, you know, seems to be okay, even though they're not doing well, as I said. So I guess people are kind of like, yeah, but, you know, they got Jason. Jason right in there and they got Rivera's a stabilizing presence. Yeah. Look, I actually have had multiple conversations with Jason as well. I think he's bright.

I think, but I also think after meeting him for the first time, this is another person that's actually a quality person that will eventually come to the conclusion that he can't work for these people. And he won't be long for this organization like any other quality person that's come in eventually figures out. You know, there are a couple of things that I want to ask you about specifically. So, you know, let's just assume that they don't have something on him and that this investigation didn't produce a smoking gun on him. What about, you know, he has vaporized the fan base, Andrew.

You know what this was. You're a fan. This was one of the marquee brands in all of sports. In 22 years, he has reduced what used to be one of the most. passionate fan bases down to a scant few. I mean, they're drawing 40 to 45,000 a game. The television ratings have sunk to all-time lows. I mean, he has sucked the passion out of this for a lot of us. I mean, me included. And so it's a big market. It's an affluent market. I know they share in 132nd of the television revenue, which will always keep it more than afloat. But there's huge

opportunity here that's now, you know, essentially gone. You know, why wouldn't they look at just the competence of ownership and decide to move on? Is it the threat of litigation? Is it there for the grace of God go why with the other 31 owners? Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think it seems like, again, I'm on the outside. Seems like the owner that they've zeroed in on pushing towards the cliff is an owner that's got a four and two team and the best stadium negotiation ever named mark davis they didn't you know they didn't like his father but they respected them i don't think they like or respect davis and so they push davis to fire gruden davis wasn't happy about that maybe they're trying to push davis out i don't know but i guess you got to look at

the profiles you know there's a guy they want to push out, who's probably the most cash poor of ownership. Yet, you know, Snyder's not only in good stead, but he's now got, with his buyout, right? He's got, like, what, 90% of the team now? No, 100% along with his sister and, yeah, I mean, the mother passed away. Yeah, it's just him and his sister. he's more fortified there rather than less so i mean i listen i know what you're asking you're a fan like everyone else and there doesn't seem to be a path i mean he acquiesced on the name right

he acquiesced on transfer to the wife you know we can all debate whether that's going to be real or not and he brought in good people to lead football in business And that seems to be enough for the league. Yeah, it's interesting on the $10 million fine and the way you described it, the transfer to the wife. He had people, you know, his lawyers and PR people calling people who were describing it as a fine of him and a suspension. He had him calling people saying he wasn't fine the franchise was.

He was not suspended at all. So, you know, he can't even take, you know, a wrist slap without, you know, a response. And last week, the Sean Taylor thing was just beyond incompetent in the way it was handled. But there was something else specific that I wanted to get to. And that is, you know, you mentioned it. It's like this investigation of the Washington football team that ended up, you know, having and producing whatever it produced. And then we had all of these emails that were used in the case that he was, you know, filing for a discovery motion in an Arizona court. And then somehow it gets leaked to the Wall Street Journal about what John Gruden told Bruce Allen about Demora Smith.

And then more of these emails get leaked to the New York Times. It costs Gruden his job. So everybody's been trying to connect the dots on where these emails came from and how they were leaked. And, you know, Peter King wrote about it the other day. My old partner and my partner on this podcast twice a week, Tom Levero, connected. the dots on this. What if those leaks of those emails came from the Snyder camp? Yeah. I don't know. I mean... It wasn't a good week for the league.

Yeah, and there's a lot of people, including me, who want to see more. Because, you know, it's funny how I've gotten so many texts and tweetbacks and emails about mafia. That's the name, that's the, what we keep hearing this week, mafia. They put a hit on Gruden and, you know, it's like, who's next? Yeah. I mean, I don't know who the leaks are from. You know, the one, the first one you mentioned on Smith with incredible coincidence comes out the day before his election where there was reports that he was in trouble to get the 22 votes from the player reps to keep his job. And lo and behold, he gets exactly 22 votes. And 10 years later, this email from Gruden comes out about Demore Smith on that day.

Then the drip, drips through the weekend, because I think someone or somebody of maybe the ownership in general wanted Mark Davis to fire Gruden before the game, and he didn't. So you have more emails through the weekend, and then he's gone Monday night. Now we just hear through vague comments in the league that there's no more racist or homophobic emails. You know, the AP, I'm like, really? I mean, the AP's doing that, doing their PR. Yeah.

I mean, again, and then as people always say to me, like, if that's true, release them. So I don't think anyone wants to go through, 650,000 emails, but I think everyone, everyone thinks there's more to it. And I get back to precedent. I talked about precedent with Jerry Richardson. What if, Kevin, what if we find out there's racist, homophobic, naked pictures from an owner, from a team exec, from another coach, from a league official. Are they out? Are they out? Because the precedent is they're out.

So that's a scary slope because now we've got precedent. You tell me if pick a name has a racist or homophobic email out there, they're going to be gone. We'll see. Yeah, I think ultimately, like, you know, just logic comes back to, you know, why wouldn't they want a guy that they don't necessarily like that's ruined one of their marquee markets out? because, you know, because it'll uncover, it'll unveil issues for a lot of other owners. And it's probably, you know, it's probably a barn door opening.

You know, the news yesterday or last night was that the 650,000 emails are all emails generated by one Bruce Allen, all of them. So 178 a day on average. And that they were outside the scope of the workplace culture investigation by Beth Wilson. Like they weren't even used in the investigation. He was the team president for 10 years and his emails weren't used. By the way, I'll add to that. Nor was Jay Gruden, who was the head coach here for five and a half years, even asked to be interviewed for the investigation. I mean, we should have an investigation of the investigation at this point because it just seems weird.

But yeah, you brought up, I mean, the Snyder, we've gone through, you know, the theory of they wanted Demerous elected on that particular day. It would benefited the league for him to continue to be the union head. The Snyder, the people that have, have, you know, put out, including Peter King, the theory that it came from the Snyder camp is that, first of all, they had access to the emails. Secondly, he hates Bruce Allen. He'd love to see Bruce Allen, you know, because he thinks Bruce Allen was in cahoots with Dwight Schar on that smear campaign of him.

And ultimately, you know, this is the dance. and Tanya mode of operation, it's never their fault. You know, for 22 years, you know, it was Norv's fault. It was Marty's fault. It was Spurrier's fault. It was Vinnie's fault. It was Mike Shanahan's fault. It was Jay and Bruce's fault.

It's always somebody else's fault. And to paint Bruce in a real ugly way, even if it costs some of Bruce's friends, their jobs, he doesn't give a shit. And maybe he can push on his fan base. See, I told you, this was Bruce. Bruce. I mean, that's the theory anyway. Yeah, I mean, the one thing on Bruce is that, I mean, listen, Bruce's emails came out with Jeff Pash, and I know that's not a good look for either. But that, to be honest, that didn't surprise me.

You know, this sort of seamy business of keeping players' salaries low and, you know, getting a favor for the Redskins, this is what happens. Bruce was hired to be a politician. You know, it's brothers, a senator. You know, it's like that's the whole deal with Bruce. He was hired by Snyder to use his influence with other teams and with the league office and being buddies with Pash and other people. Yeah, that didn't surprise me at all.

Well, I mean, I love our conversations, but I just, I think so many in this market, look, the bottom line is many don't even care anymore. You know, that's the problem is the anger last week. Yeah, indifference is the worst. The worst. The worst. Apathy is the absolute worst. Indifference is worse than anger. 100%.

And it's been that way for a while. He's chased away the majority of the fan base, the significant majority of the fan base. And as you know, this could potentially be a much more lucrative opportunity than he's. actually realizing now. I mean, we had a stadium 12 years ago that was holding, you know, that was filling up to 90,000. Now they're lucky to get 45. And by the way, half the fans are certainly 30% of the fans are the opponent's fans. It's one of the more remarkable stories in business to see somebody vaporize one of the most passionate, you know, consumer product fan bases of all time. I mean, it really, I've said for five years running,

HBS or Wharton should do a case study on this, on what not to do when you take over ownership of a really strong product because it's not worked out well. Real quickly, what else is interesting to you league-wide right now? Yeah, I think getting past, you know, whether they're trying to bury this whole Gruden slash Washington investigation. I'm looking at that. one thing that's interesting to me is we had a lot of talk before the season of players like Kirk Cousins, Carson Wentz, Josh Sweat, I believe, or no, Montes Sweat. The vaccination stuff. Not getting vaccinated. Yeah.

Yeah. And I think everyone, including me, thought, oh, my God, how's this going to happen? They can't be in meetings. These teams are going to implode. And it's working out. I mean, it's whatever they're doing, we don't see outbreaks. We see a COVID-less player here or there. And we don't hear about wince or sweat or cousins being divisive, having an issue.

They're all playing well. And, yeah, I guess I'm pat in the back of the NFL. this was going to be this monster issue, and it went away. And then on the field, I'm not speaking of monster issues that went away, my bias will show here this idea that Aaron Rogers caused drama, and he's not invested in the team. You know, I've watched those games. He's won three of those games single-handedly. I think it's, you know, he's still the best.

I know everyone's going to love fall in love with Kyla Murray and everyone else, and Lamar Jackson, but I would take Rogers. So on the field, there seems to be a handful of teams that are, I know that you guys play there this week, was one, Packers that seem to be ahead and shoulders above the rest. You know, there's four or five in the NFC, there's three or four in the AFC, and we're early in the season. and it just seems like there's been separation already. And it's probably going to be hard to find a sixth and seventh playoff team in each conference. Well, you know, by the way, on the vaccination thing, I have noticed, and, you know, people who listen to this podcast know this about me and not everybody is happy about it.

But I'm a fan of Kirk Cousins. I wish that they had seen the, had a little bit more foresight and signed him to a long-term deal when they could have. I think he's a good quarterback, and I think he's proving that this year. But what's been interesting is he's not been appearing in his press conferences with a mask. So I wonder if he actually got vaccinated. I don't even know if there's any speculation about that, but I just noticed the other day that he was without a mask.

And, you know, I think that he probably was against it for whatever religious beliefs, you know, whether it's the fetal, you know, tissue that's used in the vaccine or whatever it is. I don't know what the reasons were, but I think it's religious. and if he was vaccinated, it's interesting that it hasn't been reported or he, you know, hasn't been announced by the team. I think that's fascinating too. I mean, there's no Kingsbury last week in Cleveland for, you know, the Cardinals. It didn't seem to to impact them at all. And the other thing that you said, it just goes to show you, like, if you've got the quarterback, if you've got the answer at quarterback, that is the single biggest reason, right, Andrew,

as to why a team has sustained success. Nothing, nothing, nothing. matters as much as having that franchise, you know, top ten-ish kind of quarterback. Yeah, it sounds cliche and so simple, yet so hard. And I'm with you on Cousins. I mean, I just think that, you know, you miss him when he's gone. Cousins is not a top 10 quarterback, but Cousins is probably a top 15 quarterback. And that's better than half the league. And that's better than what they got there now.

So, yeah, I mean, listen, and you have five teams that took first round quarterbacks. The odds are two or three will be busts. Two. Oh, yeah, the odds are three plus will be a bust. Yeah. And they've all had up and downs. Right. You know, it's just everyone's looking.

And, yeah, I mean, it's so simple to say. that they rule the roost, but yeah, I look at Rogers and Brady and they're still going, and, you know, they're worth, pick a number, six, seven wins per year, and that's, you know, that's worth, in this business, the $16 billion business, you know, six, seven wins is probably worth a couple hundred million dollars, and they're making $34,000. million dollars. So superstars, to me, can't pay enough. I have issues paying average players, like in basketball, 10, 15 million a year. But yeah. Is that where top line revenue is now 16 billion in the league? I think so. It's hard to say because of the COVID year, but yeah,

I think that's where we are. Wow. I appreciate it as always. I hope you're well. Again, for anybody that's interested like I am in, you know, the NFL and business of sports and contracts and controversial situations, Andrew's a must follow on Twitter at Andrew Brandt. I appreciate it. I'll talk to you soon. Thanks, Kevin. Also, for your listeners, I mean, I've got the Business of Sports podcast, and I've got my newsletter every week. So a lot of people asking about that, you sign up at Andrew dashbrant.com.

you get a Sunday newsletter free to your inbox with a lot of these extra stuff I talk about. Yeah, and I of course should have mentioned that without you having to mention it, but that Business of Sports podcast also, anywhere you get a podcast, people, just like this one. Thanks.

I'll talk to you soon. Thanks, Kevin. At Andrew Brandt on Twitter. If you're interested in the business of sports and, you know, an opinion from a long-time NFL executive in Green Bay on any of these sports controversies in particular. He's a great follow on that. You know, and just

listening to him, I think for me, I continue in my own mind to have confirmed that there are only two ways that Dan Snyder goes. And the first way is probably a long shot, I think, because I think at this point if the other 31 owners actually had something on him that if it were found out down the road and they hadn't acted on it, that it would be a big problem for them and the league, I just think they would have acted on it at this point. I mean, being a terrible owner and ruining one of the marquee markets for your league is not a good enough reason to take away a football team. hoping for that, I don't know that it's happened. I don't know that there is that smoking gun out there. I just think if it existed, they would have moved to do this, even if they feared years of litigation and Snyder's wrath of, you know, revenge.

And I do think that there's probably a lot to be said for, you know, the owner's worrying about ousting a guy who's just a terrible owner. and has ruined a market. It's got to be much worse than that. You know, the other reason would be they just as a family decide, we don't want to own this team anymore. We're not having fun owning this team. It's not a pleasure to own this team. And certainly we would all understand that it's probably been very difficult for the family to have own this team and to have been Dan Snyder's wife or kids. And I've heard great things. nothing but great things about their kids. But still, I can only imagine what it's like,

what it's been like to have been one of Dan Snyder's kids over the years. And I have great sympathy for probably what they've gone through. And it's probably been a lot. You know, you know that it's been a lot. You know that the schools they've been in, there have been kids whose, you know, rooting interests were the Washington team or their parents, interests, rooting interests where the Washington Redskins and, you know, Snyder gets blamed for

everything, I think justifiably so. But it's probably been very difficult for the family. I would imagine that it has. But then I think, okay, so it's really difficult. It's not worth owning. They're not having any fun. They can't take pleasure in it. The downside of the anger and the maybe even the treatment, you know, of people close to Dan, that it's not worth owning the team. But then I come to think of what I've been saying for years, and that is there's no self-awareness with him, you know, or his wife, I think, so far we can probably come to that conclusion as well with Tanya. There's no real self-awareness. They don't seem to think that they've had anything to do with the record of the last 22 years, of the embarrassment on the field and off of it.

One controversy after another, one miss PR step after another, one miss hiring after another. They have always blamed others for the lack of results. They just, I don't think we're ever going to hear that they take true accountability. Sure, in a PR statement here or there after, you know, the league announces an investigation or after they, you know, announce a summary of the investigation, you'll get, you know, somewhat of an apology. But they really don't believe it. I mean, Dan had his people calling people like Tom to say he wasn't fined. The organization was as if to say he wasn't the reason for the fine.

All of the people that he hired were the reasons for the fine. He wasn't suspended. Don't report that. That's not true. You know, Tanya on that Adam Schaeftre, podcast, not acknowledging even for one second, the 42 plus, you know, the 42 women or more, whatever the number is at this point that had such a bad experience that the league in their summary said, you know, were at the hands of, you know, a very toxic culture towards women,

an intimidation and a bullying, you know, environment for many of the employees, not to take any accountability and to say that they, they have had a very, very, difficult year the Snyders. You know, we know that Dan believes in his own mind that this was all Bruce's fault, just like it was all Mike's fault before, and it was all Zorn and Vinny's fault. You know, it's been that, it's been that since he's gotten here. So to think that they would sell because they're not having fun or they're not taking pleasure, it would, you would have to believe that it's totally an unpleasant experience.

in their own minds. And it probably isn't pleasant, but they don't think that it's their fault, and they don't necessarily believe that we believe that they're at fault. So there you go. Anyway, I wanted to finish with this. The NBA opens tonight. The NBA opened last night. The Wizards opened their season tonight. I love basketball. Most of you know that. I love the Wizards. I would put, you know, in the order of favorite teams, at least in the past. I've lost a lot of passion for the football team. But Maryland basketball and Washington football have always been, you know, one and one A. Put them in any order you want. You know, I think for most of my life, the Washington football team was, you know, the skins were number one. And Maryland basketball was

1A. And then, you know, below that came the bullets, wizards, and Maryland football, and the Nats. I've really loved the Nats over the years. I think most of you know I'm not a massive Caps person at all. I'm just not a big hockey guy and I've never been a big fan. necessarily of the caps. I just never really got into it. But all that aside, I am a wizard's fan. And at the beginning of every season, I always get a little bit excited about, you know, what do we have? I mean, not every year. I loved the couple of years that they had with John and Brad and some of the players with Randy Whitman in particular. And then Scott Brooks at the beginning, because I thought these were teams capable of winning 45 to 50 games and winning a series or two

in the postseason. I love NBA playoff basketball, and it was great to have my own team a part of that. Now, last year, the series against the Sixers, you know, I talked about it here in the podcast. I just felt like this was a road to nowhere, you know, a Westbrook-Beal combination. You're just not, you know, where is it going to lead to? I mean, it would have to be a major upset to win, you know, win even one series. I do like the team. No, let me back up. The team they've put together for this year is a complete mystery. I don't know what to expect, but I think it's talented, but I don't know anything about the coach Wes Unsell Jr. I know that he is going to emphasize defense. We've heard that a lot, and hopefully they will become a more, you know, defensive-oriented

team than they've been. Wouldn't take much for them to be improved on defense. But I actually think the mix of players is interesting. I don't know what it'll turn out to be, but they have players that they've added that I like. I'm a Spencer Dinwiddie fan. I'm a big fan of Montrez-Harrel. I like Contavius called Will Pope. I don't know what to make of Coosma. I have no idea which Coosma we're going to get here. You know, they re-signed or they extended, excuse me, Gafford to a long-term deal. I love Gafford. This season's going to be very much about Bradley Beale's contract, unless they're winning big when you get to the trade deadline. But Bradley Beal is in the final year of his deal. Next year is a player option for Beal. Is he going to sign a long-term deal or not? If he isn't and the team is

losing, you have to trade him before the trade deadline. That will be a big story. It was a big story in the off season. It was a big story before last year's trade deadline. The interesting thing about Brad is that he seems to like living here. He seems to enjoy it and wants to stay. I, you know, maybe he'll feel differently at some point and want to join a contender. But if If he actually genuinely loves living here and loves the market and wants to be a part of the wizards for the rest of his career, you know, kudos to him because it hasn't been really the feeling of many that have been here over the years. But they've got an interesting mix. Like I think Dinwiddie and Beal in the back court, very interesting.

Let's hope that Dinwiddie, you know, off that ACL is fine and healthy. He can score, but he's also not going to need to dominate the basketball like Russell. Rust did, although I think they did a pretty good job of sharing it together. I think he's a higher IQ player than they've had in the back court in a while. They've got a couple of interesting players in KCP and Aaron Holiday from a defensive standpoint. I was an FDia fan before he got hurt. I'm interested to see what he's going to be this year. One thing he doesn't lack is confidence.

Huge Montrez-Herald fan. I think he plays with extraordinary energy. He was the sixth man of the year a few years ago. There's a lot of similarities not in style or position, but there are a lot of similarities in the way he plays and how hard he plays with how hard Russell Westbrook played. I think Rui Hachamur is a major wildcard. You know, I was not necessarily a fan of the drafting of him. I really preferred a few other players in that draft, but I was impressed last year. I'm really impressed.

And can he take this next step? I don't know what happened here recently where he had to go home, family issue, personal issue. I don't know. But he certainly has the talent to become, you know, a potential star player in the league. That's big for them because if Hachamur develops into a star and you've got another star to go with Beal and you've got really good, you know, players in roles like Dinwiddie and Gafford and Contavius called Well Pope and Kuzma and Harrell and Netto and Holiday. and Avdia.

You know, I haven't even mentioned Corey Kisper, their first round pick from Gonzaga, haven't mentioned Tavis Bertans, who's still on this roster and can really shoot it. They do have some ability on this roster to score. That's for sure. And, of course, I know nothing about Wes Ansel Jr., really, and what he will be as a head coach.

But I will watch, I will watch for a while until the season gets away from them. But, you know, I have some optimism that this can be a competitive bunch. It's a tough Eastern conference, that's for sure. But they open tonight at Toronto. By the way, the Wizards, Toronto is the biggest public play on the NBA card tonight. So maybe the Wizards plus two and a half is a pretty good play.

Anyway, we'll see. And I will be here to talk about them, even though most of you really don't care about the team. I do, though. So I will talk about it when appropriate, usually at the end of the podcast, unless there's something dramatic. By the way, they are now on the team 980, my radio station. We are the new flagship home for Washington Wizards Basketball. We used to be that many years ago. I can remember many years ago doing a couple of postgame shows.

Scott Jackson was the regular postgame host, but there were a couple of shows he couldn't do. And I was kind of new at the station at the time. And so I jumped on and hosted the post game shows. And I love doing that. But anyway, that's it for the day. back tomorrow with Tom.