The Kevin Sheehan Show - Howard Gutman On Sale

Episode Date: May 15, 2023

Kevin is joined by frequent guest Howard Gutman to discuss what he knows about the Commanders' sale to the Josh Harris group. Before that, Kevin with a few thoughts on mini-camp including a prediction on a surprise player this coming season. He also had thoughts on the embarrassing Game 7 performance by Josh Harris' 76ers.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it, but you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Sheehan Show. Here's Kevin. You know, looking back over your nearly 15 years, anything from, you know, you would have done differently? Sure. I do a lot of things differently. Number one, I was joking around with all my friends.

I said, if there's an owner coming in at the age I came in, I'm voting no. You don't know what you're doing for a while, and this is a difficult thing to understand unless you're here. it does take some time to really understand the football side. He never did figure out the football side. And if he learned anything, he certainly never put it into practice. That was Dan Snyder from an interview roughly eight to nine years ago with Forbes. It was an interview primarily about marketing and branding. But there were a few questions asked about the football team.

And you heard him say, you know, he would never vote in somebody that was as young as he was when he got the team. It's interesting because during those years, like the first 10 to 12 years, in this case, 15 years of his ownership, that probably was one of the last real formal interviews that he did because eight years ago would have been 2015. I think the last interview I remember really was with Cooley in 2016, 2015, 2016, somewhere in that time frame. Cooley was still doing the radio show with Zabe and with Galdi in the afternoons before he and I teamed up in the mornings. But, you know, Dan during those years when he did communicate, had one self-deprecating move. And it was to emphasize how, you know, he knows that he was too young and didn't have all the

answers. As if to say that the only time that he struggled was when he was a young owner and that he learned so much from that time. I do remember in kind of watching this thing that I just played for you, that period of time when he, you know, it was an effort to kind of say, hey, look, I was young, you know, I didn't know anything and I, you know, and I screwed up. But the problem was, is that at 56, 57, 58 years old, he was still screwing up. He never learned how to be a good owner, even after 24 years. Anyway, I thought it was interesting. I've actually found several interviews with him, with him, excuse me, from those days, including a piece on ESPN with Rachel Nichols. It was an E60 piece, and I was thinking as I was watching that one, I wonder what Snyder is going

to do. I doubt he is going to, you know, all of the sudden become a guy that does a lot of media. He became very uncomfortable doing media. In fact, in that E-60 piece with Rachel Nichols, he admitted being uncomfortable doing media. And it got worse. You know, it became, I think, a source of real anxiety for him. You know, we saw that with the happy Thanksgiving introduction of Ron Rivera. And he avoided it like the plague. And he became very reclusive, really over the last seven, eight years of his ownership. And look, part of that is because he was under attack too. So I understand that piece of it.

You know, people wanted their piece of flesh in, you know, an interview with him. And he understood that. You know, he understood that, you know, certainly recently that he wasn't necessarily thought of as a good owner. But I wonder if he'll write a book. Like, you know, people would read the book. People would read his memoirs, if you will. I don't know if he'll do that. I do think there will be eventually a 30 for 30 or some sort of HBO sports documentary.

Sort of, you know, looking back on one of the worst ownership reigns in the history of American sports. Like I said on Saturday's podcast, and if you didn't listen to it, it's still. available there. And I talk a lot about, you know, what we learned on Friday with respect to the sale being final and had a lot of thoughts about the 24 years of Dan and what's coming next, et cetera, et cetera. Many of you really enjoyed it. And I appreciated what you said about the show on Saturday. It is there if you want to go back and listen to it. But, you know, this was something that was completely unruinable. And yet he found a way to do it. And, And there's so much, you know, drama and, you know, tragedy, real tragedy, and then

figurative tragedy as well during the course of his ownership. Certainly we would all watch it if there were, you know, if there was like a one-hour documentary on his ownership. That would not surprise me at all. It would surprise me if he were a part of it. That would surprise me. one guest on this show today, and it's a good one, Howard Gutman, will be on with me today. Howard is close to the Harris Group, close to Mitchell Rails specifically.

So we will ask Howard a lot of questions, and Howard will do a lot of talking about what he knows and how everything came together and why it got finalized on Friday and what's next with a league approval because we still need the league in the finance committee. finance committee first and then the owners second to finalize this and then you know a little bit more from Howard like last time on what he thinks this new ownership group will do I also think Howard will have an interesting take on Snyder and you know what Snyder was able to work out with the league you know it's it's we talked a little bit about this on Saturday Snyder once he signed that deal on Friday, any kind of leverage he had to take a pound of flesh with him on his way out to get the things that he wanted. You know, many of you mentioned that I didn't talk a lot about the Don Van Natta story, which came out before the news broke from Snyder and from Harris and everybody that was associated with it about the purchase agreement being signed. Don Van Nata had reported that, you know, Dan was still trying to work out a deal where the Mary Joe White investigation conclusion was limited or maybe not put out at all.

Well, if the agreement was signed, and I think you'll hear Howard speak to this a little bit, it goes, it probably is logical to believe that the Dan League stuff, because there was some Dan League stuff over the last. couple of weeks may have been worked out. Howard will have some thoughts on that coming up in the next segment. By the way, on the Van Natta story, yes, I'm interested to see what the Mary Joe White investigation produces. My guess is, and I've said this for a year and a half now, I don't think it's going to produce a whole hell of a lot. I don't. The Tiffany Johnson thing, I don't know how you prove that. The Jason Friedman stuff, it always felt to me like, you know, Washington more likely than not wasn't the only team partaking in a lot of that. You know, if there's something there beyond that, you know, if there's more of a reveal on the $1.6 million settlement woman

from the plane ride back from Vegas after the country music awards back in 2009, maybe that maybe that's something that he doesn't want out? I don't know. I just would be surprised if ultimately the Mary Joe White investigation was like the thing that would have buried him anyway. Like if he hadn't decided to sell, that would have been the final, you know, that would have been the thing that got the vote from the owners to get him out. I don't think that was ever going to happen. I think the way it happened with him voluntarily selling with a lot of pressure, with the understanding that he was no longer wanted. But ultimately, that was the way it had to happen. The show today presented by my good friends at MyBooky, go to mybooky.ag or MyBooky.com.

Use my promo code, Kevin D.C. And guess what? All of the week one point spreads for the NFL are up. Kansas City is a seven-point favorite and the season opener against Detroit. Washington is a six-point favorite over the Arizona Cardinals on Sunday, September 10th at 1 p.m. And I've already got my eyes on a couple of games for the smell test.

It's early. We're five months away. Four months away, actually. What am I talking about? Four months away. Just the third of the year before we will... I mean, it's May 15th. I mean, in two months, we'll be nearing the beginning of training camp,

three months dead in the middle of preseason, and in four months we will have already had week one. But I was, as I was looking through the lines over the weekend, I thought that one game really, really stuck out to me. Cleveland getting two and a half at home against Cincinnati. That's it. I think the Browns are going to be one of those teams that will be an interesting team. they've got decent talent, and it's Deshawn Watson at quarterback.

And he looked horrible in those final six games of last year, with the exception of the game against Washington, where he played really well for three straight drives, and that's all they needed in producing 21 consecutive points on three drives. But Cincinnati, I think the public will think, two and a half, less than a field goal? I mean, give me right now Cleveland plus the two and a half, buying the half point to plus three on the week one smell test. That's not official.

But I bet you I have them when we get to week one, unless there are injuries in preseason, et cetera. And actually, I kind of like Arizona plus the six against Washington. I think people think Arizona is going to be the worst team in the league. Either them or Houston, more likely than not. By the way, the division and the conference odds are up on my bookie. conference odds for the NFC Championship. Arizona is, by far and away, the long shot to win the NFC championship at plus 7,500, 75 to 1.

I mean, they are considered to be going in the worst team in the NFC. Washington gets them in the opener. I think that's why I will probably like Arizona. Next worst, believe it or not, Tampa Bay with no Brady, they're the next to last pick at my bookie to win the NFC championship at 39 to 1, but they're 39 to 1. The Cardinals are 75 to 1. Then it's the Rams at 30 to 1. Think about that. Two years ago, no, two years ago was it the NFC championship game? No, they played in the playoffs. The Rams beat the Buccaneers in the divisional round and then beat the 49ers in the NFC championship game. But, you know, two of the last

three NFC championship teams are now, and this goes to show you what the NFL is about. It is, things change a lot year to year, especially when you don't have a quarterback, or there's the perception that you don't have a quarterback, because with the Rams, who knows? But the Rams are at 30 to 1. The Rams, Buccaneers, and Cardinals are the three longest shots in the NFC. And the fourth longest shot is Washington at 28 to 1, plus 2,800. Washington is dead last in terms of the selection to win the NFC East, well behind Philadelphia, then Dallas, and the Giants. Go to mybooky.com, mybooky.ag.

They'll also let you wager your deposit amount around one time and then be eligible to cash out right away. Mybooky.com, mybooky.orgie.org. So a few quick things before we get to Howard Gutman. Number one is this. Mini-camp was held over the weekend. What was learned from minicamp I had been on the radio show this morning, Ben Standing. He said that Emmanuel Forbes was lined up in the slot the entire weekend. He never played the slot at Mississippi State.

That could have been a rookie minicamp thing. I don't expect that he'll play anywhere but the outside. I don't. But Ron Rivera held a press conference after the first day of minicamp on Friday. And he said a few things. And there were two things that really stuck out to me. Number one was he was asked about the draft and what they were looking for in a running back. This is what he said.

Well, I would say we were looking for a back that fit what we wanted to do the way we want to do it. I know Eric really liked Christopher, so that was one of the pluses for when he was available when we were picking. Secondly, I still liked what we saw as far as the growth was concerned with Antonio. I'd like to see Antonio get a few more

tries, obviously, last year, but Antonio has shown tremendous growth, and we're pretty excited about who he could be. This is a guy that played wide receiver at one time coming out, and one thing that he did have was every nine touches resulted in a touchdown. So we're looking for some production from him as well, and we're looking to see

that he does fit into the scheme of things as far as what Eric Biont and he wants to do with the offense. So Ron's answer to this question was interesting to me for a couple of reasons. Number one is the fact that he went right to Antonio Gibson. I'm a fan of Antonio Gibson. I think most of you know that by now. I think Antonio Gibson is a lot more than just a guy to get the ball to in space, air quotes, space. I think he's a thumper between the tackles. I think we saw that during that four-game winning streak in 2021.

He had a fumbling problem in 2021. He did not have a fumbling problem last year. He is a big dude who also runs 4'3. I have said for the last year and a half, I think Gibson's a top five talent on this team. And I really came to enjoy Robinson Jr. too. He was great last year. and he really is a physical downhill back.

And I love when they are in that mode. I love him. And I love Gibson in that role too. And if they're going to be on the field at the same time or if Gibson's going to fill that role that J.D. McKissick had, that's fine. But I didn't think that they needed a running back in this draft. I think Gibson's the guy. But Gibson's contract does run out after this year.

He's an unrestricted free agent at the end of this year. and it doesn't seem as if there's been any rush to re-sign him. And that's the second part of this that I thought was interesting. I mean, after Ron said, you know, I'd like to see Antonio get a few more tries. Antonio's shown tremendous growth. We're really excited about who he could be. And then he talks about this is a guy who played wide receiver at one time coming out. And, you know, he scored a touchdown every nine touches.

And, you know, so we're looking for some production for him. as well. This was after he mentioned that Eric Bienemy liked Chris Rodriguez but what he said at the very end after you know kind of building Antonio Gibson up was we're looking to see that he

does fit into the scheme of things as far as what Eric Bienemy wants to do with the offense. Close quote. Eric Bianami is going to make the decision on all of these people on offense. I am convinced of it. I was told that when he was hired, that he's going to have a ton of autonomy. You know, picking the quarterbacks, making the decision on the quarterback, picking the personnel. I know that

they didn't draft anybody early for him, but he was involved in a lot of these draft choices. I mean, Ron said it. I know Eric really liked Chris Rodriguez, so that was one of the pluses for us when he was available when we were picking. And Antonio Gibson is going to have to impress Eric Bienemy. He's going to have to be a guy that impresses Eric Bienemy. I think he will. I think Antonio Gibson will impress Eric Bianemy. And if he doesn't, I don't know. I mean, Bienemy loves those backs, you know, in space. You know, he, I mean, obviously, Eric Bianemy would love to have a player like Travis Kelsey or a player like he hadn't to Rekill, okay? But in terms of the backs, just how about the rookie last year, Isaiah Pacheco?

How about the way he's used McKinnon? You know, Edwards Allaire, you know, they're just to bin backs that Gibson's got a little bit of everything that some of these guys have. I think Gibson can be a big, big impact player for this team. And I think Brian Robinson Jr. can as well. But there's no doubt what Ron told you right there, I think, is that it's going to be Eric's call on whether or not, you know, we see a guy in Antonio Gibson that he said, quote, you know, we're pretty excited about who he could be. I mean, they know who he can be. The other thing that he said was about an area of the team that I think they don't have answers. or we don't know what those answers were,

but I think he gave us a clue as to what they're hoping the answer will be. He was asked about the kick and punt return game, and he said this. Well, there are a couple guys out there, but one of the more notable names that I'm going to have to look it up and so I can say it properly. But he's a young man we got out of UCLA. He'll wear a number 10 out there, Alan Kazimir. He played some slot for them, some wide receiver for them,

some running back for them. them, and then he returned both kickoffs and punts for them, and he did him in the bowl game, in the All-Star games as well. So he's the young man that most certainly has gotten our attention, and he's a young guy that we went out and try to make sure we were able to recruit and bring him in as a signed free agent. Casimir Allen. I don't usually do this with undrafted free agents, but I'm telling you right now, and

listening to Ron talk about him. Casimir Allen was number 19 for UCLA if you're a college football fan and you watched UCLA games with Dorian Thompson Robinson. They were a good team this year. Had some high profile late night games in particular. And number 19, Casimir Allen, first of all offensively lined up at running back, lined up in the slot, lined up at receiver. As a kick returner, just fun to watch. This is a guy with incredible feel and vision.

as a runner. Like he feels where the opening is and he's able to cut it back and hit it quickly. I don't know what his 40 time was because I don't think he ran the 40 at the combine. He measured in at 5-8, 176 pounds. In high school, by the way, he scored 72 total touchdowns. His senior year, that's a California state high. high school record. And he also won the state title in the 100 meter dash running 10-4-4. But this guy, they don't have one. They don't have a kickoff returner. They don't have a punt returner.

You know, Johan Dotson actually would be an outstanding punt returner. But they used Gibson as a kick-returner. By the way, I like Gibson as a kick-off returner. And they used 15, Dax Milne as a punt Returner. This guy's going to have a chance. By the way, he could be a contributor on offense, too. I mean, he's one of these guys that catches everything. And then, you know, he's a Curtis Samuel type. It's exactly who he plays like is Curtis Samuel. He can line up almost anywhere offensively. And he's just got really good feel in space and vision. So that was Ron Rivera on a guy that I think is going to have a chance. You know, he'll get all those opportunities in preseason assuming health. He'll get some opportunities offensively, too.

But don't be surprised if we're talking about Casimir Allen in training camp and then in the few preseason games they have. All right, real quickly before we get to Howard, it's too bad about the defenders losing the XFL championship game. I'm not going to sit here and lie to you. I didn't watch the game. it was Mother's Day, A, B, I was focused on the NBA when that was on the game 7, which I'll get to in a moment. I know they had a hell of a season, and I know they were favored in supposed to win the championship game in San Antonio. They got beat 35 to 26 by the renegades in the championship final. In terms of game 7 yesterday in the NBA, that was one of the worst performances you'll ever see by a team.

and by the team's two best players or two star players in Joelle Embed and James Harden. Boston won the game 112 to 88. They outscored Philadelphia in the third quarter, 33 to 10. Look, Jason Tatum was incredible. He was incredible in the game, 51 points after starting one for 14 in putting his team in dangerous territory in games. game six. I mean, in game six, if Philadelphia gets the ball to Joelle Mb in the final four minutes of the game, they probably clinch the series and they're in the NBA's Eastern Conference

finals. But Mbid didn't touch the ball in the final four, four and a half minutes of game six, because they're not very well coached. And, you know, Doc Rivers, I don't know how he survives, you know, his fifth or sixth straight, I think, seventh game loss in the, postseason. I mean, he had the title in Boston years ago, but has been a major underperformer with a really good talent in the postseason. Look, I love Doc Rivers, the guy, and the player, and, you know, players coach, he's just never been one of my favorites. We've talked about this during the postseason. His team just had more talent than the 76ers. But oh, my God, poor James Hardin. I mean, Hardin had 45 in game one, 42 in game three, or game four. I mean, he won two

games in this series for Philadelphia. But it's amazing when he's in a situation where it's pressure, big time pressure. Like game one, there was no Joelle Embed, and they weren't expected to win the game. They were 11-point underdogs, and Hardin went off for 45. And look, the dude can flat out makes shots. He is a shot maker. He's my least favorite star player in the NBA, and that's been true for a while. I just can't stand the way they play. I don't like the way they basically three to four guys stand around and watch one guy. I don't, that's the part of basketball when people like Tommy say, I can't watch it anymore. To me, it's not about the three-point shooting. The three-point shooting has made the game, for me, much better. It's

created a completely different, you know, floor spacing-wise. And it's changed the game in a lot of really good ways. I think it's made the game incredibly exciting and more wide open and faster and more free-flowing. You got to guard more area. I can't stand the coaches that essentially just say, you know what, our best chance is to isolate our scores in the kind of pick and roll matchups we want and then let them dribble the life out of the ball and, you know, take a shot. James Harden yesterday was embarrassingly awful. He was clearly tight. He had nine points in a seventh and deciding game on three of 11 shooting. Of the eight shots that he missed, five of them either missed the rim entirely or barely grazed the backboard and or rim.

he fumbled and bumbled the ball away on so many occasions I lost count, including when they were up in the first half and he lost control of the ball on a drive and stuck his right forearm out as he was losing the ball and stuck it right into the face of Jalen Brown and they called a flagrant on Harden and it totally turned the game around in that moment. Oh my God. How you could, how could if you look, the Sixers and the process and all that, Josh Harris, Josh Harris own team, the process,

he took over in 2011. He's the one that, you know, hired Sam Hinky and was fine with bottoming out and getting all those draft choices. And they did get Joel Embed out of it. And look, he's an MVP. And they've won 50 games three times in the last five years. They have not been past the conference semifinals. Lots of mistakes. Look, if you're going to bottom out to create more opportunities in the lottery,

which is what they did many years ago, the process really started when Sam Hinky left. Stopped. I mean, it started when he came, stopped when he left. You know, their failures in the postseason here have been about coaching, have been about James Harden, you know, who came in the trade for Ben Simmons. But you've got to, if you're going to do that, you've got to hit big in the draft, and they failed consistently. in the draft. I mean, they just didn't hit on enough of the players, and they kind of got lucky to get Embeded. Remember

Embed was picked third overall in that draft because he had been injured. He would have been the clear cut number one overall, but there were really concerns about his injuries. But they're just poorly coached, and one of their two best players totally

gags in big moments. I mean, it was I almost felt awful for him because it was clear that the pressure of the moment was strangling him. Joel Embed wasn't much better. He was 5 for 18. He had 15 points.

I mean, the two of them combined, their two superstars combined for 24 points, 8 of 29 from the floor. And by the way, nine turnovers combined for. Boston's not well-coached either. but they had Jason Tatum. They had Jalen Brown. You know, they've got a guy like Robert Williams,

who's really at times such an impact player on the floor for them. Al Horford, you know, actually made some shots, a few shots anyway in the last couple of games. Mark is smart, you know, tough-ass competitor, high IQ. They just got better players. This was my least favorite series. The ending yesterday was just stunning to see what happened. and now Boston gets Miami

and then the West Finals are the Lakers and the Nuggets. I hope it's my I'm rooting for Boston, Miami. By the way, I had the Sixers yesterday plus the points. That's also why I was so angry watching it. But I'm rooting for Boston and Miami. Boston's just got so much more talent. I mean, Jimmy Butler can carry Miami. And they've got other pieces.

I mean, Kyle Lowry, the way he's playing, as he's on the verge of turning 38 years old has been so impressive. Remember, Jimmy Butler at one point was on the 76ers. They didn't need him, I guess. But Boston's a big-time favorite. Denver's a slight favorite. I think we'll probably end up getting Denver in Boston, but I'm rooting for Denver and Miami.

But these playoffs have been great. That seventh game yesterday was atrocious. Other than to say that Jason Tatum, Two weeks after Curry set the record for 50 in a game 7 went for 51 and now he owns the record. And it's amazing from where he was with like six minutes to go in game six to where he walked off the floor yesterday. He scored 15 points down the stretch in game six to bail him out. I mean, the Sixers helped. And then yesterday he was on fire.

51 points. He had 13 rebounds. He had five assists. He was six of 10 from behind the arch. 17 of 28 from the field overall. He was great. All right, there are other things. I'll wait to talk about RG3's reaction and the Nats disaster Saturday night with the postponement of the game after a four-hour delay.

I'll get to those things and more with Tommy tomorrow. But up next, Howard Gutman, right after these words from a few of our sponsors. All right, jumping on with us right now is our good friend Howard Gutman. Of course, Howard was the ambassador to Belgium during the Obama years. He was a longtime prominent and still is D.C. attorney. He's got a great radio show, all right, on the Odyssey app. That's where my radio show is as well on the Odyssey app. You can listen to it in Richmond, WRVA Radio.

It's called As I See It. and it's more about his other passion, which isn't sports, but his politics. And so you can listen to that. But Howard's on with us because Howard, you know, as we had him on the last time, I think it was the last time. Howard made a great case for what an incredible person Mitchell Rails is, and by extension, that means Josh Harris is a great guy and that this is going to be a phenomenal ownership group.

But what we got Howard on Friday, was the, you know, first time we have heard from the parties involved. Dan Snyder and the lead investor and the lead controlling owner, Josh Harris, announcing that they had a fully executed purchase agreement. And as I explained on the podcast, that is different from what we had before to a certain extent. And all that's left is for the NFL to approve it, the finance committee first, and then three-fourths of the owners to vote. Yes. So I want to start there, and I want you to take everybody through what you've known for a while, being kind of close to the Harris group and the Harris bid, about how the last, you know, let's say month, going back to the month when the reporting was they had this non-exclusive, unsigned agreement to where we got to on Friday and then what's next?

So, Kevin, first, this is not going to be based on any information, inside information as to where, but sort of experience, I think, being able to assess what's being reported and then what it means. All the reports came out, but they seem to be more mystifying and misdirectional for most people that I talk to. And so maybe we could have a little clarity to a process that kind of operated as it should have and as you'd expect, at least if you had good businessmen on both sides, which actually occurred in this case. So we had a long period where we were told that the Snyers were looking to sell, but before they announced whatever is a non-exclusive, non-signed agreement with a group. And in that period, we know that the Denver Broncos sold last year for $4.6 billion.

dollars. So the commanders, given their recent performance, could have arguably been worth less, even if there were somewhat more, maybe it's a $5 billion sale. But we know that the press immediately jumped out and said this will be a $7 billion sale, and this will be Jeff Bezos, and certainly it will be a $6 billion sale without anybody looking at the numbers, and the numbers went to justify any of that. So we had the period of Dan trying to, the Snyder's trying to find a buyer at the highest number they could. I think originally they set out with hopes of $7 billion, believing the own press, which they may have created.

But it became clear, as we saw, there are very few people in this day and age who can afford to buy clubs under the NFL rules. It is not a large group who could afford to do it. there are a few very wealthy families I bought the Broncos. It used to be a club got sold to the richest guy in town who used to be the youth card dealer in town. They would buy the club. And those days are gone.

So by the time you get Charlotte, you get New York private equity guys coming down at $2.2 billion for Carolina Panthers for David Cheper. And now you're at double that or more. this is hard to do. So there is no real robust bidding. If Jeff Bezos said he wanted in, he could have had it. So Dan had a create competition to get to a number, and the people bidding had to think about is there someone who really was putting together those numbers,

but also could they meet a number that would cause Dan to sell? In some respects, Dan had all the cards, the size of all the cards, because everyone wanted him to sell. but if he didn't get a premium, he wouldn't do so. The league wanted him out, the fans want him out, but that meant someone had to pay the money. So we had those kind of false reports all the time

that a new group was here at $6 billion. Tillman-Fertia gave the truth. He said, look, I analyzed it. I was willing to go up to this high. It made sense in Illinois, Denver. It wasn't worth more. I know the Apostolopoulos family was looking, very hard to put together in the framework of the NFL rule.

And so finally, it became clear that there was the group that had been put together that is the pride of Montgomery County public schools. It's a fabulous tribute to public schools in Montgomery County. These were Josh Harris met Mark Eind at Rollingwood Elementary School in Chevy Chase. Mitch Rails was at Whitman. And this essential group of people who grew up with their dads taken to Redskin games and having fond memories. didn't have to go find a franchise they could buy somewhere. It's not David Tepper looking at the Carolinas when he's a New Yorker. Their home team franchises there, and enough of them could get together.

They would put a bid that was what the team was worth, but then they had to convince to put it together a bid that would convince Dan to sell it. And it became fairly clear that they were the buyers and Dan was the sellers. But unlike every other team, it looked like to me. So we got the report that there was a sales. sale, but it was non-signed and non-exclusive, but that the league had already taken a first look and had improved the buyer. So without any information, what that means to me is, we know who the buyer is, we know who

the seller is. It wasn't about that. It wasn't about the terms. Those had all gotten settled. But unlike any other league's sale, there were other issues to be resolved before Dan Snyder was willing to say, I'm willing to sell. walk away. Namely, he had lots of issues and has lots of issues with him and the league and him and

the fan base and him and the local authorities. And the minute the Snyder signed a binding agreement, that's what it said, how I read this, the minute the Snyder signed a binding agreement with a buyer, they lost their leverage to say the one thing that would protect them in all this, which is, okay, and we won't sell. And so it seemed to me that the reason we've had this period of non-exclusive, non-signed isn't for some mystery of trying to get other people in. That had the long past.

But that things had to be wrapped up with other parties. This isn't information. This is the Washington Post reporting that the league and Dan was talking. And what Friday was about for me, I believe, is not knowing that the Harris Rail's group would get it. that was clear, it was that the rest of the problems have now been resolved. We haven't been told the terms. We haven't told how that's occurred. But there's no way that the Snyders would have done, joined the Harris' Rails team in now urging the league to move forward. They want to put out joint press releases unless everybody now was saying time to approve this league. Obviously,

Harris and Rails want to approve so they can go forward on their ownership of the club. And the Snyders, once their problems are behind them, I don't know what the interest is on, say it's $6 billion, he gets $4 billion a cash. That's over a million dollars a day. Million here, a million there, it starts adding up, so they needed to be approved. So Friday told us that everybody's aligned. They would like to leave to give the go-ahead now. and we are now in the position of a traditional sale, which is once the league has resolved its problems with the Snyers,

the Snyers have resolved their issues with the buyers, then the league gets its turn to actually do the due diligence on the buyers. It shouldn't be difficult in this case, but the finance committee doesn't get to do it that often, maybe three times a decade. So they ought to at least go do it, and it wouldn't surprise anybody that some of the financing, if you have a group this smart, some of the financing won't be all right and check from this bank and this bank, but some will be I'll put a mortgage on this asset or that asset, and the league will go through the trouble of doing that. But now everybody's in the same boat, which is nobody wants to go to another season with the commanders in doubt or the Snyders in the picture. And we now know the Snyders have found they're out. We can now guess from the reporting.

They found they're out with the league, whatever terms that will be. the deal is agreed. And so now we have the pretty straightforward NFL approval process. You shouldn't, no one should prejudge it. They're going to do their work. They're supposed to do their work. There isn't anyone who thinks they shouldn't. It's just that when they do their due diligence,

we have every reason to believe they will be fine with their due diligence because imagine what it would take at this point to say, not that you ought to re-re-fix this mortgage, change it to a more stable asset or whatever, but no, we won't approve this group. We'd rather have Dan Snyder on kickoff in September. That's not going to happen. Well, you know, that's really the saving grace to all of this, right?

Is that the league wants it as badly as we do and as badly as Josh Harris does and maybe now as badly as Dan Snyder does. Because I did have somebody tell me last week, Daniel Kaplan from the Athletic, and he told me on radio, I think it was, that, you know, you know, the finance committee had just come out of their meeting last week where, you know, the reporting from the post in various places was, you know, they had more questions and answers. I mean, they weren't killing it, but, you know, some people said some positive things, but that there was some structure and deal stuff that needed to be worked through.

And Kaplan essentially said that this is the only team that the Josh Harris group would be approved for with their current structure. Do you think that's true or not? I don't think it's true. I think when you get to $6 billion, look, I think this will be the least complicated sale other than Seattle in 2024. That's Jeff Bezos striking a check when Seattle's ready to be sold. But thereafter, the NFL will have had to change its rules to allow sovereign wealth to invest to a certain percent, to allow foreign investment to a certain extent. Right.

Because we are out of Montgomery County, Oh, we produce so many billionaire genuces, and we've run out of them. Yeah. No, and I think, and I've made that really clear, that the restrictions on ownership, they've probably reached the point, look, the bottom line is, and I talked a lot about this on Saturday's podcast, thank God for Josh Harrison's group, because this was not, you know, an overly demand, this was not a big demand for this particular, you know, this particular team.

I mean, I think a lot of us a year, two years ago would say, oh, my God, if Snyder ever put it up for sale, there would be, they'd be beating down the doors to pay $6 to $7 billion. But the truth is there just aren't that many people that can do it and they can do it. You know, I am curious as to what you know and or think about Jeff Bezos. Like, what happened there? Was it that he was never allowed to be in early on, and ultimately that kind of dissuaded him and influenced his decision when maybe Snyder came back at the very end and said, hey, I'm open to your bid now?

Or was it that he never wanted Washington to begin with, that Seattle's been the apple of his eye? I think it's a little of all. I think if Washington looked easy and there was no Harris bitter and the league came in and starts getting courted by Robert Kraft and Jerry and they said, you know, we're not sure about Seattle. There could have been a situation where he came in now. And I'm sure when he realized the headache that this one was, and ultimately Seattle is going to be available.

It can't be sold to 24. but it's available in 24. He'd rather have that situation and not get involved in this, in this what's partially a morass, unless it's your first love. The buyers, for the buyers now, it's their first love.

For lots of outsiders, Washington has been, you know, a morass. It's been unbelievable what's happening here. But for us, it's always going to be our first love, and that's why we had a group put together by people who find, This is going to RFK with your dads.

Right, which, by the way, was, you know, when you said that and you pushed the Montgomery County Public Schools, you know everybody's saying, well, that was Dan, too. So, you know, it didn't. So here's the difference. Here's the difference. What, that Josh went to a private high school? No, no, no, no, no. The difference was, and I think if Dan were here today and had the pressure off of me,

say, Dan had one success when up to the time he was 34 and thought that made him a genius. Josh Harris, Mitch Rales, Mark I, and they've had many successes and lots of failures. And so they know they're not geniuses. They know they're just pretty darn good at what they do, but they can learn from others. They're not going to tell you who's going to play left tackle. They're not going to tell you, you know, I really like, but that's that. is owner idas. We just saw with the Phoenix Suns, a brand new owner comes in.

He fires a successful coach. He gets rid of two promising players, trades the next four first-round draft choices unprotected because he thinks he knows how to build a winner. Dan Snyder, too, right there in Phoenix. That won't happen this time. You need some people who realize we're smart, but we're really smart of picking good people to do their jobs. Dan made that fundamental mistake.

they didn't know the difference between being a fan. By the way, these people were excited. If you look at Mark Eind's tweet or you look at talk to some of the other people, they are genuinely excited because this means so much to them, but because it means so much to them, they will go about it the right way. So, you know, you said something that I've talked a little bit about, and that is, you know, Dan hanging on with the non-exclusivity with the unsigned agreement to try to get his pound of flesh on the way out as the way I've described it

with some leverage, which was, hey, really? You don't like it? Then I won't sell. Well, he can't do that anymore. So you said the problems between Dan and the league have been solved. So the reporting here over the last couple of days, if you're right, is just behind. Like Don Van Nata, you know, that Snyder is still working through these issues. issues with respect to Mary Joe White, with respect to specifically a couple of things maybe in

her report having to do with, you know, whether it's Jason Friedman, Tiffany Johnston, or the $1.6 million settlement with the woman on the plane coming back from Vegas at the country music awards. But it sounds to me like you believe that this, that Dan signing this agreement meant that he got what he wanted or he satisfied enough with what he and the league have decided on on those issues? Again, no information, but they were taking so long to get it done after the post reported that the terms have been agreed, it's now between the league, that there was no reason to do it Friday as opposed to next Friday.

What it sounded like, what it seems like to me, is not that he necessarily got his way, but that the issues have been resolved. Okay. Because we had Dan going from, I have no commitment to sell, to jointly announcing, Lee, it's up to you, we are done, time to go forward. Right. There was a change not quantitatively, qualitatively, which meant Dan went from, I'm not losing my leverage to, hey, this is costing me a million bucks a day.

That's what sounded to me happened on Friday. Tell me just about this last step. Finance committee approval, then it goes to the owners. You know, it sounds to me like you don't think there will be much of an issue. The first reports coming out of New York last week were that the finance committee had more questions and answers. But give us this final step that will make it actually final for sure, which is league approval. Where do you think we are on that? And, you know, is there any reason to be? concerned? You don't want to prejudge the lead because you want and respect the process and they should do the process right.

But there's so much misinformation flying, you know, kind of on this group. We know that they've already had Josh Harris through the Steelers. Right. Mitch Rails is not an unknown commodity to many of these owners. It's not like existing owners have never talked to these guys over the years. it's not like, you know, they've never met each other. So some of these are known comites, then you heard, oh, well, it's the Colombian money. Alejandro Santa Domingo was born in New York City, went to Hotchkiss and Harvard.

That makes me Polish. I mean, I was born in the Bronx. I was born in the Bronx, went to Bronx Science in Columbia, and that would be like calling me a Polish. He's born in New Yorker. His quadrant is in New York. Apollo, these are their business successes. This is not

the Apostolabo Selli might be wonderful. They're Canadian into casinos and people would have to start Googling them. These are not people, anyone has to Google and they are not people who've had a lot to hide. These people have lived publicly under scrutiny

for quite a while, and it's to our benefit. Just look at how the group came and who's in the group. Mark Eind was, you know, kindergarten friends at Rollingwood Elementary with Josh Harris. He and Mitch have been friends for years.

But Mark is also, clearly the best, the best owner, the best person in the American tennis league. Can you put that on his back and carried the whole league? Not only the most successful franchise, he's carried tennis in Washington on his back for years, not for credit.

You get an article every five years in the Washington Post. He carries tennis on his back for love of tennis and love of Washington. He's a hell of a tennis player. Eric Schmidt, I've met Eric Schmidt twice, and I was unbelievably impressed with the quality of the person twice. The first time, most of the DMV missed, but Mark Warner, now the center from Virginia, one of my oldest friends, She actually ran for president in 2005, 2006, in that sort of kicked the tires on the presidency when it was thought to be Hillary and ended up being Barack Obama. But Mark was sort of the alternative to Hillary. And for two years, he and I traveled around in the way that the unannounced candidates are doing now, looking towards the 2024 race, kind of kicking the tires.

And we went out to Google and Eric Schmidt gave us, met with us. for a few hours and gave us a tour of Google, and it was 10.30 in the morning. And Mark Warner and I are walking, Mark Warner and I are walking through, and Eric's giving the tour, and the place is empty. There's desks that are empty.

The beanbags are empty. The whole place is empty. So I'm looking at Warner. Warner's looking at me, and finally, he says to Eric Schmidt, where is everyone? And Eric says,

oh, you think I'm running a business. I'm running a graduate school. You've got to understand your employees to understand your employees, used to understand your success. And it hit me wildly at D. said they could be here at all hours of the night. The goal

they're judged on their results. That was the first time Eric Schmidt. It was a different way of thinking for a Washington lawyer who made sure he got to the office at 8 and stayed until 7.30 every day. Just a different way. Second time, I reached out to him.

There was a trade mission when I was ambassador to Belgium. The Crown Prince of Belgium was doing the trade mission. There could be no two people more unalike them, the Crown Prince of Belgium, who I'm sure has trouble using his phone and Eric Schmidt. I called to say whether he would

meet with the Crown Prince of Belgium. He was as gracious as could be. We brought the trade mission out. He spent over an hour. The questions are the kind of questions you could ask your kid who knows a computer better than you, but he was patient. He was a diplomat.

I was super impressed with him. So you've got a You know, people who are experienced businessman who've made it, who understand their own weaknesses. And you've got a couple of rumors, Colombians, which means New York City and Hotchkiss and Harvard. This is a very solid group, but you wouldn't want to short circuit the process. And the other thing is, I think they are a group that's not a forced marriage. We saw with the Snyders, we had a forced marriage in the past. in a group of 18, there won't be, you know, everyone won't be happy all the time.

But I think they know how to do decision-making for the greatest good. And I suspect that that's how they'll get there. And lastly, they'll know it's not about them, it's about us. Yeah, which would be a huge change. But you still didn't, like, so vetting this group, fine. and it sounds like that that won't be an issue. And obviously vetting Josh Harris hasn't been an issue in the past. But with respect to the structure of the deal,

that's really where the reporting was last week on the Finance Committee, that there was some concern maybe not about the number of limited partners because the league allows up to 25 and there are 16. Correct me if I'm wrong in this one. But perhaps the amount of debt. debt in the deal beyond the debt, the $1.1 million limit that you can put on the team, that there was discussion about Josh Harris having to perhaps take more debt on the Sixers and Crystal Palace and New Jersey, the devils to get to this price point.

So a few things there. We've heard the price points a little bit uncertain. Remember, it's been reported not by me, by others, that it was in the first. 5.8 billion range, but also in the 6.05 billion range, some have called that an earnout. Well, how you count that will determine how you calculate the permissible debt. Is that an earnout? Is it a $5.8 billion deal that you have to look at the financing on and then not worry about where the $200 million comes out of an earnout? Or is it a $6 billion debt with $200 million being potentially lent by the Snyders,

on the earn out if they don't make the earn out. So there are real issues. There are issues about if you're using, are you going to use your money, or are you going to put a mortgage on assets you have? But if you put money on assets you have, could things all crumble? So you look at the financials, if there's money going on the New Jersey Devils, there's money being borrowed against New Jersey Devils. You'll look at their financials.

But I suspect neither the 76ers nor the Devils are going under. So it's real work to be done. Would I call that a concern only to this extent, not a concern of will it be approved, but will there be requests that, say, look, do us a favor, restructure this $150 million or restructure this $200 million? And among those 18, there is plenty of ways to restructure this money. And next, I believe there probably will be some consolidation over time. either some of the smaller people will be that it's just too hard or they'll make a quick return on their money and some other people will come in. That's not unnatural.

But I do think there is not going to be massive delay. It's in no one's interest. They said, oh, it's got to be at the next owners. It's got to be the 22nd to 24th. They can convene a Zoom call whenever League security says we're done with the vetting. And, you know, each one gives people recommendations and references for people to check out. But, you know, if you've been up for an ambassorship or a senior position, you've had that done as well. The League wants to investigate that.

My point is it's just easier in this case because so many of these people are public and known. Right. So you don't have much of a concern other than what you described, which kind of makes sense to me. And I think I talked about it Saturday or maybe on radio this morning. I'm losing track. But that look, maybe the finance committee comes back and says, we need you to handle this part of the purchase price a little bit differently. And they'll have the wherewithal to get that done. You believe that, you know, for all intents and purposes, all the while respecting the league process.

and I understand you when you say that, but that we are going to get to a point here over the next month or two where the league's finance committee passes it on to the owners and we get a resounding three-quarters yes vote. Correct. By the way, I think the vote total will be interesting to see, aren't you?

Will we get 31 out of 31? Because we'll need 24 out of 31. or will it be somewhere, you know, in between that? Who knows? I'm hoping for the parting gifts when we get there. I'd like to see what they bestow on us. There's lots of bennies that Washington's long overdue for that I hope the league starts considering.

Yes, including the participation in a new stadium at some point. But, by the way, I want to mention one other thing, too, and that is that, you know, I remember the process in 1999. I remember we got to assign purchase agreement with Milstein and then it fell through and Snyder ended up taking over. That's not what's going on here at all. But I do think that, you know,

and I said this, I've said this many times in the past, I do hope we get to a point as a fan base where all of these names are really insignificant to the daily conversation about the team. You know, Mort Zuckerman, Fred Drasner and all these other people that were involved and when they were bought out, these weren't big headlines. You know, the headlines were, you know, the football team and the football organization.

And you didn't know who the team president was. You know, you didn't know it was Balducci. You didn't know it was the guy that followed him. Nobody knew these names. I want to get back to a normal organization where we know who the GM and the coach are and all the players and the assistant coaches. You see that happening with this group, right? Kevin, when I Wikipediaed Mitch Rails on my phone,

they had a picture of Stephen Rails there. Yeah, right. They didn't even know what his picture was. Mitch Rails is not the kind who says, you know why I'm buying this? I want to get to a microphone. Believe me, remember, Mitch Rails is half of the reason everybody who any sports listener in Washington listens to listens to.

they founded WTM, the team Mitch and Steve. Nobody even kind of, they are viewed as reckless. They're not records. They're great people, good people, but they don't need any of the attention. Josh Harris, the first thing people say, Adam, he's not that big for the microphone. It's not like, and it's not about any one of them. It's not going to be Alexander Hague saying, now I'm in charge. You know, none of these people need that.

they have had their success. They understand their success. They're not buying this for a platform. That might have been different with some of the other people trying to get in the week just by bidding looking for a platform. None of these people need a platform. They want to bring a successful experience back to Washington. At Midrales, you know, at Apollo, you never saw Josh Harris as being a face.

Someone had to interact with investors, but they had right people to do it. you know, he just doesn't have that kind of presence. The 76ers are about the 76ers. The devils are about the devils. Crystal Palace, about Crystal Paris Palace. None of them are about Josh. Josh, none of the Glenn Stone, if anything, is about much more about Mitch's wife, Emily, because she's such a graceful presence and a fabulous figure in the art world.

But Mitch is always in the background. They're not buying this because they want a microphone. They're not buying it because they want a microphone. they want a platform. They're buying it because it's an opportunity finally to write this franchise for this city, and that could be a great personal success for them that they help to bring this back. All right. I want to find out what you think will be the first things they will do once the league approves them, and they take over the team, and we'll get to that right after these words from a few of our sponsors. This segment of the show brought to you by Window Nation,

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Buy to get too free. And if you're financing the purchase, you don't have to pay interest until the year 2028. 86690 Nation or Window Nation.com. We continue with Howard Gutman. So, you know, I've talked a lot about how, you know, this is right now for the significant majority of us, this is a story about Dan being gone. But soon enough, it'll be about the new ownership group. And then we will sit back. I'm going to sit back.

I'm going to give it time clearly. And we will watch what happens. and everybody's got their own priority list. What do you think is on their priority list? What will they try to accomplish first? I would expect their priority list would be to learn as a professional. Remember, they don't have this team now. At most, they were entitled, depending on what the deal terms were,

to do a slight amount of due diligence with maybe access to somebody, but we don't even know if they've gone to speak to Ron Rivera for an hour, hour. Jason Wright for an hour. They couldn't have been a lot. There would have been, how much due diligence would they have been allowed to do? It's not their team. These people are smart enough. I would expect to know that there were decisions that have to be made once they

fully gotten facts. So what I would hope the fans would do is give them a hall pass. You're not going to take over in June. Change your quarterback, change your name, sign a stadium deal, whatever. They know the issues that exist, but we're all kind of lucky that. things are, you know, things are, we're all hoping we're a quarterback away and we hope we found them from a successful season and we'll be learning while they'll be learning. The organization, the good people, what they need to have, what they're lacking.

Those decisions they'll have time to make. I don't believe they bought this predisposed to a particular decision. They're too good businessmen to do it without having fully investigated the facts. Right, but I would assume and maybe in. correctly that because Josh Harris owns sports teams, you know, he has a lot of infrastructure in running sports teams. He's got a lot of people that have worked for, that are working for him now, that have worked for him. He has, you know, he's able, he's got his own headhunting firm when it comes to, you know, executive sports people that are out there and potentially

available that he knows and knows well. So on the business side specifically, I would think that he's got an idea of what he wants that organization to look like. Do you think I'm right or wrong? I think that would overstate. I think they will have to understand. I don't know if they've ever gotten a chance to talk to the head of ticket sales. I mean, they've gotten financials probably from the, you know, a quarter before anything changed. I think they know that there are best practices in the leagues that aren't done here with the regard to the fan experience.

but the sort of the nitty-gritty that you would need to know for decision-making, I would tend to doubt they have. Do I think they know today how they're going to change the brand, if they're going to change the brand? I don't think they have any consensus view on that yet. I don't think they have a consensus about management. Sure, they'll bring some people into so they can go through the learning process well, But if anyone's expecting, you know, they're bringing in a new GM or removing people the first week, I would be surprised.

Yeah, and I wouldn't, it's not something I'm advocating at all. I'm just, they know what they're, they know what they're looking for. And maybe they'll find it in the group that's there. I mean, you know, why, if you've got good people that are doing their job and the things going well, then those good people, hopefully, will stay. You just brought up... Kevin, what if they're expecting now that they're likely going to go to A, B, and C, but, you know, we finish 11 and 6 this year.

You know, we don't... It's now May. You know, in every fan's mind, including mine, we're a lock for 11 and 6. So we've got time to be disabused of that. We've got time to be disabused of that, but if it happened, you're certainly, we're not going to say, well, we're 11 and 6, but we sure have gone 13 and 4. No. So we have a hall pass for a while, and let's see what happens.

But that doesn't mean they don't have, obviously, they know good people in the league. They've been studying good people in the league. I suspect they have lists. But I don't think that that means tomorrow they come in in June, in June and up end anything. They've got some immediate issues. They've got, you know, cable TV questions, and they've got. You know, stuff that is out there right now. But beyond that and some on the fan experience, you know,

they can make some changes for proms, depends on a training camp, what do you want to do about, you know, charging for this or that. But they can't, the fundamentals can't be done between now and kickoff. Howard, they're going to have the longest grace period, honeymoon period. Any new owner of a sports team in recent memory will have. because they're not Dan. And so I think that that's, I'm speaking for myself, but I feel like I'm speaking for a lot of the people that have, you know,

that I've connected with over the years. This is a dream come true. And everybody's going to give them plenty of time. The hall pass, as you described. You did mention the name. And you said you don't think there's a consensus on the name. at this point. My first question before we get to that conclusion, there's no consensus. Is this how Josh Harris will manage slash lead? Will it be more consensus with his, you know,

with his management team, with his, with his ownership group? Or will he manage more with, you know, input? But ultimately, hey, this is my gut. This is how I'm going to make the call. This is what we're going to do. I suspect decisions will be fact-based and smart. And if they're fact-based and smart, you're going to get consensus. It's not going to be like somebody's going to say, I've always wanted to lead a team named the Admirals. It's my favorite.

It was my mother's favorite name. We're going to change to the Admills. There's going to be a compelling business fan reason for everything they do. If they can make their case, they're making it to people who are compelling people, people as well. That doesn't mean they're going to agree on all. But they've got, they're going to, you know, they know what they're doing. They didn't change the New Jersey Devils. They didn't change the 76s. The parts that aren't broke, but the parts that were broke, their performance, they had to go to the bottom to come out the top. That's the way you do it in basketball. So they did it.

They do it, you know, they do it fact-based. They do it data-driven. They do it, you know, results-driven. where results means winning, which is usually the biggest thing for fans, but also making sure that your fans also believe in your efforts. So on the name, when you said you don't think there's a consensus on the name. I have never talked to a soul about the name. Okay. What's your gut? Do you think it will be in consideration?

I have no idea what if I were the founder of Apollo and, Danaher and Venture House and have always done fact-based data-driven decision-making. I haven't seen close to the fact-based data-driven to understand. I don't know what the league's position is. I don't know what, you know, what the, it's not going to, it's not about that. It's just not. It's about good, sound, business fan decisions. Right.

what would you like him to do on that front? Well, I would like him a winner's Super Bowl, and I can call him anything you want. Call him wait for dinner. No, come on. Seriously. No, seriously. That's what you get. Kevin, that's what we're getting out of me.

I don't, I really don't care. All right. I won't push anymore. I won't push anymore. Fine. That's fine. What else haven't I asked you? You know, I think.

I think we've got covered a lot on reasonably excited, reasonably excited about this group, generally. You know, I was even happier when I saw it, but then when you read the misinformation, the Colombian money. You know, and I'm like, wait a minute, isn't 11-100-born New York, yes. You know, so you start reading the misinformation. I just hope that people look three years down the line when they say that was the best day Washington had. since our last Super Bowl, you know, because it broke over a long time. It's been, Ron Rivera's tried to fix the culture, I think we've had, you know, a far better culture and some of the proms.

But you can't turn around the sinking Titanic in the day, no matter how counted you are, but what you can do is never close your eyes, begin to address the problems, and get done. And I would hope our ship would be righted sooner than we have a right to expect, but it'll take a while. The Hotchkiss School, for those of you that are wondering, $70,000 a year. And actually all in probably a lot more than that. Those of us that know a little bit about the private school system,

that's just an entrance fee. All right. Great job, as usual. Really appreciate it. And I'm sure we'll be talking soon. Thanks so much, Kevin. All the best. Howard Gutman, everybody.

we are done for the day. I'll be back tomorrow with Tommy.