The Kevin Sheehan Show - Howell vs Brissett vs Fromm

Episode Date: January 5, 2024

Kevin and Thom opened with Kevin's first watch of the tv series Fargo. All Washington football after that starting with the decision to start Sam Howell against Dallas instead of either Jacoby Brissett or Jake Fromm. How much pressure could Washington put on Dallas if the game stayed close into the 2nd half? The guys discussed that. Thom's prediction on Commanders-Cowboys, his column on Eric Bieniemy, and the boys reaction to Detroit Lions Head Coach Dan Campbell's back and forth with a Detroit sports-talk radio host as well.   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Chean Show. Here's Kevin. I'm here. Tommy is here. The show is always presented by Window Nation.

Call them at 86690 Nation or go to Window Nation. com. Mention my name. And Wind Donation will take really good care of you. Tommy's down in Florida for the winter. He summers in Spain. He winters in Florida. It's a real.

really good gig to be Tom Leverro. We got a couple of very nice ratings and one very low rating on Apple, but this very nice rating comes from Jerome from Southeast D.C., perhaps playing the role of Jerome from Southeast as Clinton Portis did during his days as a Washington Redskin running back. He gave us five stars on Apple. Honestly, Kevin, I'm shocked that Tom did. didn't absolutely adore the holdovers. A film about a curmudgeonly often misunderstood genius?

Sounds a lot like a guy I hear on the podcast twice a week. Love the show, guys. Genius is a pretty strong word. What a compliment, though. Yeah, not even I would use the word genius. Tom liked the movie a lot. I really liked it. I think Paul Giamatti's got a chance to,

win an Oscar for that movie. I'm assuming it's eligible for whatever the Oscars are. Aren't they usually like in February of March? Yeah, I love that movie. And you liked the movie. You thought it was just okay. Yeah, I'd recommend it. I just didn't think it was as great as everybody.

I didn't fawn over it. Okay, so with that, it's... But I would still recommend it to people. Yeah, with that, this is the perfect segue into what I could not wait to tell you today. because I actually, unlike you with me, and you've missed out on things because of it, when you give me a recommendation on something, I usually take it seriously. You know, that Christmas movie that you gave me, The Ice Harvest, I really liked it. Didn't think it was the greatest movie I've ever seen.

It's not, it's a wonderful life in terms of Christmas movies. No, it's not. But it was very good. But you and I think Clay, but also many others, who have reached out to me, have asked me to watch Fargo. You really like Fargo a lot. You and Liz have watched Fargo, right? How many of the seasons have you watched?

We watched all four. We started watching the fifth season, the new season, which just started this year. I mean, it's been like three or four years since season four and season five. Yeah. So we just started watching season five, and we're behind on episodes. Okay, so Tuesday night? Would it have been Tuesday night? What was last night? Wednesday night? Tuesday night just decided, got back from the Maryland game, went to the Maryland Purdue game, got back from the Maryland Purdue game, was kind of wide awake. I hadn't eaten. It was my son's birthday that day too. And so we grabbed some dinner and we ate it at home and we had cake, you know, and the whole thing for his birthday. And then he's like, you know, Dad, you know, Tom's. mentioned that you should watch Fargo. You really should. And I said, great, let's turn it on.

You know, it was 1030. The Maryland game, we left early. We got out of there, you know, before the under four-minute timeout, because that thing was over. I wanted to leave even earlier. So that night, I just watched the first two. Oh, you watch it first season, season one? Well, yeah. Yeah, I'm watching the season one, the Billy Bob Thornton season. By the way, I didn't even know until maybe this morning that this was kind of a true detective every year the cast kind of

changes. I didn't realize that. So I'm just watching season one. But there's a connection between seasons of time to time. Okay. So I watched the first so I watched the first

episode on Tuesday night and then it was late and I started to get tired but I really liked it. Well last night I started with episode two, and I am through now eight episodes of the show. And if I hadn't looked at my, at what time it was when I was done with episode eight, which was like 130, I would have just kept going, but I'm like, I actually really do need to go to sleep. And tonight is the first night since early September without Thursday night football. So I can finish up season one.

very easily tonight. I love it. I love it so much. It's so perfect. It's such a great, what is the description? Would it be black comedy thriller? Or would it be? I would say black comedy, dark comedy. Yeah, because that's what it's, it's, it's, it's like, it's like the movie in many ways. It really has the same kind of style to it that the movie does. It has the same style with respect to scenery and accent and location, but it's a completely different storyline. Completely different story. Yes. Tommy, this might be Billy Bob Thornton's best role.

I mean, and he's got so many to choose from, but he is so good. Like, I still think him playing Carl Childers and Slingblades, one of the best performances I've ever seen. whatever that movie was. That's an early to mid-90s movie, I'm going to guess. He's been so great and everything. But the way he plays, Lorne Malvo, in this show, is fucking incredible. And then I... And Odenkirk is great. Martin Freeman is phenomenal. And you know, actually, you don't know this. Well, you might know this, but you never watch this. And for whatever reason, I think you have... Well, maybe you did watch it, but didn't like it. I forget. You know where he started, Martin Freeman, his first big gig, right?

No. It was the original office, the Ricky Jervais, British two-season office. He played Tim, who became Jim Halpert, you know, on the American version. And he was great on that show. I've told you this in many people this many times. I think actually the two seasons, did you watch that or didn't you? I forget if you did watch it. No, I did not.

I think it's the best comedy, two-season comedy ever. But I'm also a massive Ricky Jervase fan. And it's why I didn't watch the American version for so many years. You know, when you would tell me to watch it, in fact, I'm like, no, I'm not, you know, I've seen the real thing. I don't need to see the fake. And then when I did get into it, obviously, I thought it was incredible and it's my favorite show ever. but Martin Freeman playing Lester

in this is so good he's a Brit I don't even think most people that watch us know this about him but he is fabulous he's amazing now what I said before about the connection to the movie there are connections to the movie

the Oliver Platt scene with the money is directly connected to the movie right it's actually It's excellent. It really is. It's really good.

And all four seasons. I mean, the fifth one, like we just started, I enjoyed all four seasons. In fact, one of my favorite sayings that I use now, whenever I leave to go someplace, in season two, there's a saying that one character says, if I don't come back, I'm either dead or in jail. Why use that now? Geez. G's and Ufda. I mean, the whole Minnesota thing. And you know, they have it down so perfectly. And they did obviously in Fargo the movie as well.

Yeah. It's really, I can't wait to get back to it tonight. It's really good. And I also, for Cowboy Clay, and, you know, he's got a rather big game coming up on Sunday. I know that he has asked me to watch it as well. So I'm giving you. credit. He can be very sensitive if I forget that he was one who told me to watch something as well. So, Calboy Clay, thank you for the recommendation. Love it. Now, two things. Yeah. I would also recommend to you, at least the first season. The next two aren't so good.

I watched the whole thing. The first season of Goliath was Billy Bob Thornton. Okay. All right. Let me put that down. Remind me later. Let me do one thing at a time here. Okay. Okay. Yeah. And you mentioned true detective. You know, there's a new seizure. I know. I know. I saw that.

And I haven't watched it, but the reviews are through the roof. A hundred percent on Rotten Tomatoes stars Jody Foster. Exactly. It's Jody Foster. That's how I was thinking, because I saw the previews and I saw that it was Jody Foster. So I'm really psyched up about looking at that. Yeah. Because season one or true detective is the greatest television I've ever seen. It's awfully good.

All right. Well, Fargo, for those who haven't seen it, the television series is, I think it's one of those that you're just, you're going to watch episode one, and then it's going to be hard to turn it off. Now, this was not, correct me if I'm wrong. obviously the Cohn Brothers movie is the inspiration but I don't think they wrote this because I think I was trying to... But they are the producers. They're the producers of it but it was not their writing of the show. I don't think.

No, but they have, but obviously they have some creative control involved in it. Right. I mean, this is one of the reasons I didn't watch it for a long time because I didn't want to like Sully the movie. The movie. Yeah. You know, the movie was so. good. I didn't want to insult the movie by watching the TV show.

Yeah. Because it's very rare that those things really match up in quality. There's been the odd couple. There's been mash. But other than that, there's not that many. But this one matches up. This one does not embarrass the movie in any way, shape, or form. That's really, really good. All right. You know, I mentioned Clay, and this is a big week. And I had our good friend Michael Phillips, who now writes for your newspaper on radio today. I love Michael. He does such a good job and he's such a good guest. And we just started talking and I'm like, you know, put yourself into a Cowboys fan,

into a Cowboys fan head right now. Cowboys fans head right now. This is a pressure, pressure game. The downside of the downside of. of losing this game is maybe unrecoverable for Mike McCarthy and Dak Prescott. I would agree. I would agree. If they lose to Washington as 13 and a half point favorites,

and they lose the two seed and the possibility for two home games, because really the progress the Cowboys need to make is not winning a Super Bowl. Like that's 20th century discussion. They have to win more than one playoff game. That's the progress for this group because they can't win and haven't won more than one playoff game in forever. And so the easiest way for them to do that is to beat Washington, win the division, be the two seed, and be guaranteed two home playoff games if they win the first one.

before an NFC title game might, which, you know, it would look like it's going to be played in San Francisco. But losing this game and falling back to the five seed and then potentially losing to Tampa in the first round, oh my God. And so we started to talk about, Michael just asked me, he goes, what percent chance do you give to Washington winning this game? And I said, look, it's the NFL. And the good news for Washington fans is they're going with Sam Howell. They're not going to go with Jacoby Burset. Now, maybe Jake Fromm would have been better more than that coming up in a moment.

But they're going with Sam. I said 10%. It's the NFL, anything can happen. But the 10% for me and Michael also said the same thing is more about like the Cowboys choking. Like imagine you get to the fourth quarter. and it's 1717. I mean, we have seen the Cowboys tighten up with this particular group and gag a little bit. And so I, if you're a cowboy fan, man, you know, this game, it's not the same in terms of the stakes, etc.

And the unrecoverability of it for some key members. And that may be an exaggeration. But I think back on 2016, when Washington had a really good football team offensively in 2016, they'd gone to the postseason in 2015 that'd won the division. And all year long, they really looked like, except on defense, they looked like a playoff team. You know, they beat Green Bay on that Sunday night, hammered them. They played that game on Thanksgiving against the Cowboys that was just an incredible back-and-forth game that they lost. The Cowboys, you know, that was the Zeke Elliott rookie year and Prescott's quarterbacking them, and they were nine and one.

And then all they had to do was beat the Giants in the final game of the year at home. The Giants were a playoff team, but they had nothing to play for. Now, they did not rest their starters. They played Eli Manning in that game. They played their starters, but it was very much kind of a vanilla attack. and as the game went on and they fell behind 10-0 at halftime, I think it was, and then the game just was super tight in the fourth quarter, you could see the crumbling, including you know who, who crumbled a little bit.

Now, I've mentioned many times. That game was not solely on Kirk. The defense was horrendous in that game. They gave up, I think it was 175 yards rushing something like that. 120 of them in the first half when they fell behind. They couldn't get off the field in the game against a giant team that was basically playing vanilla offense. But if you get something like that on Sunday where it's close going into the fourth quarter, look, I think Dax had a hell of a year.

I think C.D. Lamb has exceeded all of my expectations. I thought he was a good receiver. I didn't even think he was better than Terry McLaren. He's much better than Terry McLaren. He is a true elite. receiver. But they've had some good players this year. They've had some very good games, but I could see them in a 17-17 fourth-quarter game tightening up. What percentage chance do you give Washington? I'm going to say 11 percent. A little bit more than me.

Just be 1% over. Because look, like you just said, and I've always said there are two franchises in the NFL that have the aura of self-destruction. that surrounds them. One is Washington, and the other is Dallas. They are a franchise that self-destruction is usually their M-O.

You can count on it generally. Even when they're good, they find a way to self-destruct. So that that's still there. That still exists. It's ownership. They don't have new ownership. Right.

Yeah. It's still Jerry Jones in charge. So that's self-destructing. destruction gene, it still exists. So, I mean, that wouldn't surprise it. By the way, the game you mentioned that the Washington Giants game, it was after that game that I wrote a

column saying, your buddy, Jay Grude should be fired after that loss. Yeah, they were not, that was really... They weren't ready to play. It was really painful. You know, I just pulled up the box score from that game. The Giants rushed for

161 yards. Sorry, it was a little bit off, that. But, you know, they had Paul Perkins as their number one running back. He averaged five yards a carry rush for 100 yards. In a vanilla offense, Eli threw for a buck 80, no picks. They gave up a lot of third downs. Washington rushed 15 times for 38 yards. But Kirk threw, you know, a back breaking pick at the end. You know, it was 13.10. They were driving for either the game-tying field goal or the game-winning touchdown. And he threw an absolute crushing pick to Rogers Cromarty, I think it was, right? I think it was Rogers Cromarty who had that pick at the end of the game.

But Dallas has not won two playoff games in a postseason since the last time they won the Super Bowl in 1995. I mean, Washington has not won more than one playoff game in a postseason since the last time they won the Super Bowl, which was 1991. Now, Dallas has been a much more successful franchise, and they've been to the postseason a lot more than Washington. Washington hasn't won a playoff game, a game in 18 years. It's crazy. In fact, Tommy, today might be the 18-year anniversary of Washington's last playoff win. Now that I think of it, I'm going to look up the date because I think it may have been January 4th. No, January 7th.

January 7th was the last, in 2006 was the last time Washington won a playoff game. Anyway, I just think, look, I hope Dallas comes out and smokes Washington from the beginning. I don't want that drama. I want the number two pick, worst case number three pick. And I think that there's a chance that that happens. But if this game is tight like it was with San Francisco on Sunday at halftime, I could see Dallas tightening up for sure. Okay.

Do you think the owners, we have no idea what the owners think. Maybe you do. I don't. But if the owners are thinking smart, they must have full confidence that Sam Howe can lose this game. So this is interesting to me. A couple of things that I know and a couple of things I'm just wildly, recklessly speculating on, all right. What I do know is that Jacoby Brissette was legitimately hurt last week. There were people that thought, oh, Brissette did what Taylor Heineke did last year. No, he was hurt,

was not moving well at all. And they tried him, you know, on the field Sunday, and it just didn't work out. So last week, you and I discussed the idea of Josh Harris getting involved and it would be completely acceptable if Dallas came to Washington with nothing to play for. And there was a risk of winning an absolute meaningless game in crushing their draft position. And we both agreed that that would be an acceptable time for Josh Harris to say, hey, I'd like to see some guys on the practice squad. I'd like to see a lot of backups. I'd like to see Jake Fromm at quarterback.

Yeah. So yesterday, Tommy. Oh, so the other thing that I know is that the high, hypothetical that we discussed last week, they were already preparing for. They already knew, I had somebody reach out to me just to say, they are preparing for your scenario. They've already been thinking about that, meaning Dallas coming in with nothing to play for, which is good. Right. Now, to me, that said, they would have certainly somehow gotten involved. Now, Dallas comes in best case for everybody involved, not only needing to,

win the game, but not just needing to win and hoping Philadelphia loses. They control their own destiny for the division title and the two-seat. It's the best case for all of us. However, you still don't want to put them into a position where it's 17-17 going into the fourth quarter and knowing Dallas, they're not the Niners, you know, they're not Kansas City in recent vintage, they could choke, you know, and they still have Mike McCarthy and they're still prone to 16 penalties in a game to blow a game. And so I, with that, said yesterday when they didn't have the quarterback announcement before practice started, and they didn't then have the quarterback speak to the beat before practice started. As you know, that's the schedule on Wednesdays.

And Ben was on with me, and I just said to him, I said, do you think it's possible that there's a back and forth going on right now between Rivera and Josh Harris ownership about, you know, who to play. Look, they had a lot of subs in the game last week, a lot of backups, and they're going to have a lot of backups in the game this week anyway because of injuries, because of not risking injury. Like, I don't think John Allen's going to play this week. You had two, you know, starting backup tackles last week. I mean, with experience, obviously, and Lucas. But you'll get a lot of that anyway. You had a lot of that in the secondary last week. But the quarterback specifically, I wonder, and Ben's like, I don't know. I have no idea. Well, I did try and I reached out to multiple

people to ask, what's the deal? Like, is there, did ownership act, did Ron talk to ownership about this? I actually wish somebody on the beat had asked Ron Rivera that yesterday. I think that would have been an appropriate question. I actually texted Ben after it was over and I said, did anybody ask him if he had any conversations about the starting quarterback with ownership. Well, nobody asked the question, but I don't know. Maybe the answer is no. Maybe the answer is yes. I would think that there was probably some conversation, though it makes sense to me. They understand the huge ramifications and the hurt of winning this game. And so if Jacoby Berset is healthy, maybe there was, well, Berset's healthy. We'd like to play him. And they say,

so we'd like to see from, and the compromise was howl. I don't know. I have no idea. Okay. Okay. The question is, though, and this is certainly a scenario, even though the kid has stood up to everything that he's been given in terms of taking a beating. What if there's a situation where, you know, Michael Parsons lays a big one on Sam Howe, and he's got, he can't, he can't, can't count the three and they've got to put the backup quarterback in.

Who's the backup quarterback? A phenomenal question. I was wondering, apparently Ben asked or Michael asked Ron and they said they have not made that decision yet. And that kind of says to me also that, you know, there could be, this is a complete speculation. It only makes sense to me, though, that an owner in this particular situation, that an owner in this particular situation, this is where you'd want them to be involved because everybody involved on the sideline Sunday is involved for the final time. They have no vested interest in the future

of this franchise. And so I think that Fromm should absolutely be the backup quarterback. Not only that, let me throw this out to you. What if it is 1717 in the third? quarter. Put Jake Fromm into the game. Thank you, Sam. First look for Nate Sudfeld. Exactly. Right. Do what the Eagles did. And if you can't find him, then Jake Fromm. But seriously, this is... Like the Eagles did. Let's have a big boy conversation about this, people. You know, like, oh, what are we doing all this hypothetical? Hypothetical. It's exactly what the Eagles did. Doug Peterson was going to be fired the next day. And, Jalen Hertz was keeping them in the game, and they didn't want to win the game.

It would have cost them multiple draft slots. So they put Nate Sudfeld into the game. Do you think that was Doug Peterson's decision? Or do you think it was something that was discussed before the game, maybe? I don't know if it was a calldown, but it was probably something that if you've got a chance to win the game, put Sudfeld in. We'd like to see him. Jake Fromm should 100% be the backup quarterback on Sunday. Yes, you should.

For that very... You've seen enough of Jacoby Preset coming in a football game, you know? Yeah. And to see, to know that the risk significantly goes up of losing that game if he comes in. Yeah. So it's going to be interesting because if they say that Brissette is the backup for Sunday, then to me, ownership didn't get involved and they should have. Yes.

the first football decision you could really hold them accountable for. Because they inherited everything else. If things happened too quick after they took over, there was not enough time to make the football decisions that needed to be made with the staff moving forward. This would probably be the first one that you could hold them accountable for. I have totally been on board with Josh Harris staying out of everything. I know that he was involved in the conversations and actually suggested or was in favor of trading Chase Young and Montez Sweat at the trade deadline.

And that's fine. That's fine with me. But he didn't meddle. He didn't pull a Dan Snyder. He didn't fire Rivera. And it would have been a popular decision, I think, with the majority of the fans. I'm glad he didn't. I think, you know, this season wasn't going anywhere.

He didn't demand the Brissette story. You know, whatever. But I think that it's an acceptable thing for him to, you know, look, you may say, well, why does he need to compromise with Ron on anything? If he's really doing his job, then Jake Fromm should be starting the game in the first place. It's funny because I mentioned this yesterday on the podcast. What if they basically told Josh Harris, look, to be honest with you, there's really not much difference between Hal and Jake Fromm.

The reason I say that is because Ron Rivera said yesterday, Tommy, and I played this soundbite. He was asked about Fromm, and he said, Fromm's a quick decision maker, ball gets out of his hands quickly. It's everything that they've been wanting Sam to improve on. He says Jake Fromm is. And then I remembered that Jake Fromm actually played pretty well in the preseason, so much so that there was actually a discussion among some fans anyway, at least Collins, of cutting Jacoby Brissette. and saving money, and I told everybody you're not going to save any money. You guaranteed seven and a half of the $8 million. There's no chance they're going to cut him.

And why would you cut him? He's probably the best quarterback on the team right now. But Fromm actually played well in the preseason. So to those that would say ownership shouldn't be compromising shit with Ron Rivera. They own the team. Rivera is gone on Monday. If they want Jake Fromm to start the game, Jake Fromm starts the game. and if Ron Rivera doesn't like it, he gets fired before the final game.

This is much more important the future of the franchise. But I bet you that there really isn't that much of a difference. And like the difference between Hal and Fromm probably isn't the difference between Hal and Brissette. If Brissette's healthy and Ron wanted Brissette to play and he's going with Hal because Josh Harris said, we'd rather not, we'd rather see a little bit more of Sam Howl. Well, then that's a good thing. But Fromm should be the backup. Yeah.

Anyway, we're going to see a lot of backups. I'm reading John Kimes' Twitter right now. John Allen, Kendall Fuller, Cam Curl, Curtis Samuel, Christian Holmes, Castro Fields, who got the start last week, they're all not practicing today. We're going to see a shell of the team that we've seen all year, which, you know, What does that mean? They've been the worst team in the league. You know, I made the case today on the radio show, if you think about it, that right now,

Washington is the worst team in the NFL. You know, the Panthers have fought here recently and been close, not last week, but they nearly beat Green Bay the week before. They did beat Atlanta the week before that, you know, two teams that are fighting for their playoff lives. they nearly beat Tampa a few weeks ago. The Giants are fighting. Arizona just pulled off and upset.

New England's really playing hard, which is why I think if Washington loses, I really do think Washington will have the number two pick because I think the Patriots will beat the Jets and what most likely will be Belichick's final game. They've played hard. Washington right now might be the worst team in the league. I'm still going to go to Carolina.

I think if they played on a neutral field, Washington might be a one-point favorite or it might be a pick-um. I think if they played in Charlotte right now, the Panthers would be favored. Do you know that Washington is going to be, for the first time since 2000, an NFL team is going to be a 13-point or greater underdog at home in back-to-back weeks? That's how bad they are. Now, two good teams. Quite the legacy. I mentioned yesterday, their point differential at minus 161. If they get beat by more than eight points,

it will be the worst point differential season in the Super Bowl era for them. This is a bad, bad football team that we have watched this year, especially down the stretch. Man, those Eagle games, and it turns out, we thought potentially the Eagles defense was not nearly as good, in the two Washington games as it was last year. Well, it's a train wreck of a defense. And other than those two games in the Seattle game,

and the games they won against bad teams, Arizona, Denver early, you know, the Patriots, and they beat the Falcons on the road. That's their most, the two most impressive games were the two losses to Philadelphia, but they don't even look great right now. Yeah. The Pro Bowl was announced yesterday.

did not have a player on the Pro Bowl roster for the first time since 93, although Montez Sweat made it as a starter for the Bears. Opposite Nick Bosa as a starting defensive end. 12 and a half sacks for sweat. All right, let's get to your Eric B. Enemy column. Should we do that? Absolutely. We'll do that right after these words from a few of our sponsors.

All right, this segment brought to you by, are good friends at Shelly's, Tommy. Tell us about Shelly's. Well, I've told you guys before that one of the great things about Shelly's is you never know who's going to show up there. It can be a definite celebrity sighting scene down at Shelly's. Arnold used to smoke there. I know Dennis Rodman, whenever he's in town, he always stops there. A lot of ballplayers have stopped in there. The other night, Cedric the entertainer was at Shelley's backroom. Yes.

Yes. All right. So that was very interesting. I think he's from St. Louis. I'm looking that up. I think he's one of these. Yeah. A lot of Jefferson City.

So it's not just me who you might run into at Shelley's backroom. You could run into all kinds of celebrities there. So make the trip. Shelly's back room, 1331 F. northwest in the district. And even if you don't meet somebody, some celebrity, I'm pretty sure you'll make a friend, at least for that night. That's how friendly that place is.

You know, there's a lot of people from out of town who come through D.C. to do business. A lot of those people wind up at Shelley's back room, and I wind up talking to them, a salesman from this company, you know, an inspector from this company. and their common bond is the food, the drink, and the camaraderie at Shelly's. You can find out more at shelley'sbackroom.com. Phenomenal place. All right, I did read your column about Eric B. Enemy, so why don't you share the overview with everybody that didn't have a chance to read it?

Okay, well, it's, you know, like a lot of columns, and, you know, it's just the way things evolve. It evolved in part out of discussions we've already had about Eric Bianami on the broadcast here, and I've made my thoughts clear, and this time I put them down into print. And I would just always amazed. His press conferences, to me, are remarkable in their own way, as Ron Rivera's are in a different kind of way. because Eric the enemy can pile on a lot of words and not say absolutely anything. But if you pay attention sometimes,

he says something that it's worth noting. And a couple weeks ago, about a week and a half ago, he was asked, what went wrong with Sam how. And in between a lot of words was, you know, I couldn't, I can't quite put my finger on it. And I thought, well, you know, that's kind of the job description, isn't it? Right. You know, knowing what's wrong with your quarterback.

Now, you could argue, well, he knows what's wrong with him. He didn't want to say, there's a way to say what your quarterback is going through without saying, I don't know. You know, I don't have a clue, you know. Your guess is as good as mine. Right. So I just, just to illustrate that, Sam, how. on his resume, certainly does not qualify Eric B. enemy to get a head coaching interview.

And to me, if I was running a team, after what I witnessed him take a quarterback, whoever thought maybe had whoever had overpromised on at the beginning of the season. A lot of people did. And basically watch that quarterback go downhill after that. It's supposed to go in the opposite direction. You know, growth and development is not supposed to be a negative thing. This was their M.O. all year. And they grew less and they developed less than when they started.

And that's on the offensive coordinator, I think. Their offense, again, you can argue your schedule. You know, the defense is not as good. But the fact is that if they don't score more than a field goal on Sunday, he'll have less points in this offense that Scott Turner had it his last year. Yeah. I mean, I think one of the things that you wrote

and certainly used as kind of part of the conversation is that Eric Bienimi is a known entity. He has been turned down by so many teams that it became a story. unto itself. You know, the offensive coordinator for the most successful offensive team and a Super Bowl champion and a Super Bowl contending team. And Matt Nagy got a head coaching job. And it's Andy Reid.

And there was Eric B. Enemy not getting a chance at a head coaching opportunity, not even getting a chance really at anything other than to stay in Kansas City until Washington offered him their offensive coordinator position. I know I've talked about this many times, but in case you've not heard me say it before, like I was completely, I was confused by much of the reaction when he was hired in February of last year about how so many people in town referred to it as this incredible coup. Like, oh my God, why did he, how did we get Eric Bienimi? Why did he pick us? well, because he had no other options. I mean, there was no big win in hiring him.

We could have waited until August and hired him. There was no interest in Eric Bannamy. And like you've said many times over the years, when you don't know something, you look to those who do know and you take their direction on it. And the rest of the league said no, no, no, no. So then it became an issue of, oh, it's a racial issue.

He's not being given the opportunity because he's black, and yet, you know, we've had hirings of black head coaches and black offensive coordinators. And I remember pointing this out at some point over the summer when the conversation turned in that direction. I happened to have been listening one night to NFL radio on satellite radio, and Todd Bowles was being interviewed by the person on. Series XM. And Todd Bowles, as most of you know, is the head coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. If they beat the Panthers on Sunday, they'll be a division champion for the second straight year. And this year, actually, oddly enough, without Brady, I think they'll have a pretty good chance to win potentially a home game.

It will likely be against Philadelphia. But anyway, Bowles was talking on that particular summer day about hiring Dave Canales, their offensive coordinator, and how he had gone through, like, countless numbers of interviews. And I actually went back and looked. He interviewed 10 people for the offensive coordinator position in Tampa that was available. Half of whom were minority candidates. And he didn't hire a minority candidate, but he didn't even interview Eric Bienemy. Todd Bowles, a black head coach, didn't even interview Eric Bienerney. nor did a lot of teams that had needs.

So I thought that spoke volumes in the offseason, and I thought that it was really couched unfairly about why, you know, A, Washington getting this incredible hire, making this incredible higher, but also that the other side of it, which was he didn't get a chance to be a head coach because he was black. I mean, once he made himself available to be an offensive coordinator, there's only one team that interviewed him formally. Baltimore, it was reported, was going to interview him,

but then they hired Todd Munkin and didn't even interview him. Washington was the only team that interviewed him for offensive coordinator. So we move on from that, and then we get to see him in action because, you know, that's done with, and now he is the offensive coordinator. and he's got the most autonomy as a coach he's ever had. He got an assistant head coach title. And I think the performance has been very up and down. Just beyond what everybody else in football thought about him,

which to me was always a red flag, the performance itself was very up and down. I don't think he was a terrible offensive coordinator this year. I mean, he was working with a quarterback that had some talent but was incredibly inexperienced. And I think he was learning on the job as well. And then on top of that, I think that he decided on this track to take of kind of throwing him deep into the fire and or deep, you know, throwing into the deep end and having him sink or swim, because he thought that was the best way to do it. I think in hindsight, maybe it wasn't. But it wasn't

like I was against it completely as it became clear what the strategy was with him. I don't know. I have no idea if he'll get a job. There's no, I think there's very little chance he becomes a head coach. I mean, I don't know that he's done anything here in Washington, you know, with an offense that's bottom third of the league. And as you said, a young quarterback that really didn't develop and didn't get better. Actually, the opposite happened. I see him on people who are writing stories about possible head coaching candidates around the league, I see his name on that.

And that's ridiculous. I don't think, I think people ignored, for whatever reason, I think it's still stuck in people's minds that Eric B. Enemy's been done wrong. Yeah. And I just don't know that this isn't the person you hold up as, the example of being wronged when he had dozens of interviews and nobody hired him as a head coach. And we're talking about owners that have hired minorities as head coaches before. So it's not like they didn't have a, they were refused to hire a minority candidate.

I'm not suggesting that there isn't racism in sports and even in the NFL. I just never thought it applied to Eric B. Enemy. You just saw minority candidates being hired or organizations that had hired minority candidates interviewing him and moving on or deciding not to interview him. And then finally, when he became an offensive coordinator possibility after the head coach thing had worn out its chances, one team interviewed him, Washington. I'm not sure what Kansas City would have done had Washington not hired him. Yeah. I think they would have brought him back, but I don't think he would have been the O.C. They may have given him some lofty title, not just to avoid embarrassing him.

But Matt Nagy was always Mahomes' guy. Now, look at the Chiefs, right? The Chiefs have not been very good, you know? I know, and there's some dots that people have connected. Yeah. The enemy's not there. Right. I point that out.

In the column, Chris Sims, NFL analyst, says that he was Andy Reed's enforcer on the offense there, which I said, fine. That makes him Luca Brotsey. It doesn't make him an offensive coordinator. Right. Yeah. He's an interesting story. Like putting all of the not getting hired, the racial status.

stuff to the side. We got to watch him as an offensive coordinator with complete and total autonomy. This was his show from the beginning. And the results are the results. They weren't very good. The development of the young quarterback did not go well ultimately, you know, as we look and evaluate all 16 games so far. I don't know why he would be a hot candidate for anything next year based on performance. Just objectively, based on the results, why would you be desperate to hire Eric B. Enemy at this point?

I don't see why you would. I mean, there's nothing on his resume here in Washington to indicate the green flags. If red flags tell you not to do something, there's no green flags that tell you this is the guy. Yeah. Right.

And by the way, the red flags, there were more when he was in Washington. You know, the head coach coming out in three weeks into training camp, two weeks into training camp, and suggesting that players were coming to him because they didn't like the way they were being coached. You know, that's, there were, and then, yeah, there was a red flag here.

The story surfaced again a couple of weeks. I know. Which, of course, RG... Both lead of players went to Rivera and asking him to step in. RG3 decided that that would be the moment where he would say, you know, anonymous sources. People say, no, no, no, the head coach said. The head coach said it back in August. No, whatever.

I mean, he wasn't the worst offensive. coordinator we've ever seen. You know, because remember, we were wondering early on, are they going to be disorganized? Are they going to, no, everything was always fairly organized. Ultimately, the bottom line is he had a young quarterback who he decided to develop in a certain way that was a little bit different than most young quarterbacks get developed, and it didn't really pay off. That's exactly what happened.

All right. But you had to make it pay off. you were him. This was your chance. Or you had to go to Chicobe Berset and have an offense that looked much better, with maybe better results as a team, but not that much better, because the defense was a big

problem for Eric B. Enemy, too, being fair to him. I get that. I get that. I mean, they're not a double-digit-digit winning team. No. Not this year. No. But they're closer to eight or nine wins. Probably. All right.

I'm going to play some sound for you when we come back. It was an exchange between Detroit Lions, Dan Campbell, the head coach, and a sports talk radio host in Detroit. I think it was an interesting exchange that Tommy and I will weigh in on right after these words from a few of our sponsors. This segment of the show brought to you by Window Nation. Call them at 86690 Nation or go to WindowNation.com. If you've been thinking about new windows, I promise you,

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It's worked out for everybody that's ever used Window Nation via my radio show or podcast. Call them at 86690 Nation or go to Window Nation.com. So Dan Campbell, the head coach of the NFC North winning Detroit Lions. They finish up their season against Minnesota this weekend, and then they're going to host a playoff game for the first time since 1993. They haven't won a playoff game since 1991. They beat the Cowboys the week before they came to Washington for the NFC title game and lost 41 to 10. So very exciting times in Detroit, and a painful loss for them on Saturday night in Dallas, a game that now has been much

talked about the illegal touching by the receiver who claimed he had reported but didn't report as an eligible receiver. Probably did report, but referee Brad Allen kind of screwed it up. And at the same time, Detroit really tried a lot of slight a hand with sending over a player that had reported as eligible a couple of times already in Skipper and Dan Skipper. And Brad Allen got confused. He messed it up. But I personally think Detroit had something to do with messing it up as well. The NFL actually sent out a memo to all 32 teams instructing them on specifically how somebody with a jersey number in the 50s, 60s, 70s, or 90s has to report as eligible if they come into the game. But anyway, for those of you that saw it, it was a two-point

conversion converted with 23 seconds to go and then called back. And then after it was called back and Detroit's losing their minds, claiming that number 68, the offensive lineman had reported as eligible, they walked off the five yards, which now meant that Detroit had the chance from the seven-yard line to change their mind and kick the extra point to tie the game, which would have probably sent the game to overtime. But instead, Dan Campbell said, F it, we're going for two again. and ran a play from the seven-yard line, which got intercepted, but Micah Parsons was off sides, which created a third opportunity for them.

Now, half the distance to the goal at the three-and-a-half-yard line to go for two one more time, and they failed on that attempt as well. So Detroit's Sports Talk radio host, Jim Costa, from, I believe it's 97-won the ticket, has, Dan Campbell on his show every week. I think it's this guy, Koston, perhaps, a co-host. And I want you to listen to the exchange between Jim Costa and Lions head coach Dan Campbell yesterday on his weekly appearance. So after that play, you had said, you told the offense, you're going for two on the final drive if you score. But from the seven, I mean,

and looking back, like, was there a point of no return where you lay down your sword and kick the extra point? Do you regret it at all? The decision? decision to go for it from the seven. Yeah, I told our offense, I think I said this before, and we're going for the win. And we're going to go down, we're going to score, and we're going for two. And I wasn't coming off of that. So if it was like 10 or 15, like a holding penalty, you still would have gone for it? No, we're getting outside of 10.

No, we go outside of 10 every week, good on good. We do it every week. O verse D Yeah When you got the penalty You know Go ahead and say it Say it

Both of you What Say it Say what you want to say I think from the seven It's a low percentage play I think your chances of winning Are lower than if you kick the extra play

I would say it to anybody else I'm on the radio Say it like you want to say it I thought it was a reckless decision Thank you Okay but you don't regret it No So, Tommy, what did you make of the way Dan Campbell handled it and the way the show host handled it, Jim Costa?

I thought it was pretty good on both sides. I thought Campbell basically telling the guy to say what he really means, you know, what he would say on the radio if Dan Campbell wasn't there. and then once he did that for Campbell to say, okay, now we got it out there. You know, and not hang up on them or something like that. What did you think? Yeah, I mean, I loved how, I don't love the answer from Dan Campbell. I think actually he made a real big mistake. There's nothing.

Oh, yeah. I mean, the actual act, the actual decision was wrong. Right. And I think the show host did a really nice job of, first of all, it's not the show hosts when he has the head coach on to have an opinion about it. It's for him to ask the questions. I thought he asked the questions well. And then when Dan Campbell asked him to, you know, go ahead and say it. And he said, I think, you know, going from the seven is a low percentage play.

I think your chances of winning are lower than if you kick the extra point. And then he said, well, say it like you would say it to anybody else. I'm on the radio, say it like you want to say it. And he said, I thought it was a reckless decision. So I love the way Campbell handled it without a lot. Like we have known people, we have had coaches on the air, that you push them like this, and they get very, very sensitive, overly sensitive, and it can become very uncomfortable. I love the way Campbell handled it.

I thought the show host handled it exactly right. This was absolutely a question you've got to ask because it was the wrong decision by every measure. But who knows? Maybe the coach has a reason for going forward from the seven. Maybe he'd said, you know what? It's really interesting. You're right. The analytics say you don't go for it from the seven yard line.

However, we actually had a fourth and seven play condensed field that we loved going into this game. And that's why we went for it again. Like something like that, rather than just the emotion of we had made up our mind, we're going for the wind. Well, going for the win from the two-yard line is different than going for the win from the seven-yard line. But I actually loved that Campbell just said, say it like you'd say it to one of your callers or one of your co-hosts, you know? Yeah. It was good. Yeah, and wasn't off-put. It was good on both of them.

I don't understand, and I don't understand the athletics of it, I don't particularly care. I don't understand this notion of that there's something wrong when you're behind to getting the game back to even. There's nothing. And then having a chance to start all over again. There's nothing wrong with that. Okay. Yeah, trust me. I mean, the way teams in Detroit's one of them,

just seem to be almost against field goals, against extra points. I think has been somebody's going to do a 20-23 follow-up on this, and I have a feeling some of these historical numbers based on 20-23 results are not going to look as favorable. Context is always a big part of these decisions. They should always be a big part of it. I do understand the two-point analytics down 14 when you score and now you're down 8. I know that.

That one is a little bit different because you're going to get two opportunities at it theoretically. And you do want to play to win in regulation versus overtime if playing to win has an equal chance. But at the end of a game like that, going for two, I mean, it depends. Do you feel like you're the inferior team? Do you feel like you've got no chance playing an extra period? Do you feel like your snapper has the yips right now and you might miss the extra point? Do you feel like, you know, you have a play that'll work? There's so many things that go into it.

And I would just point out, because we haven't spent a lot of time talking about that Saturday night game on the podcast this week. I don't think we have. Maybe I did. But, you know, when they did score, you know, at the end there, there were still 23 seconds left. And one of the things that you always have to understand, now 23 seconds, less than 30 is usually the break point for, go for the win versus going for the lead. I actually think 23 seconds with the other team, Prescott and C.D. Lamb and the way they've been picking you apart a lot of the night,

especially Lamb, you know, still, now you give them four downs. See, when Washington didn't go for the two in Seattle with 52 seconds to go, it was, in my opinion, 100% the right decision. People don't take into consideration that if you go for two and make it, you've given the other team now four downs where if it's a tie score, they only have three downs, especially if they're in their own territory to move the sticks and to advance the ball. But anyway, I wanted to play that because we've both been in positions with various coaches where you've got to ask that question and the answer and the comfortable, you know,

comfortability with that conversation isn't great. I think he's wrong. I think the head coach is wrong. I think that game, he'd been better off kicking there and going to overtime. But anyway, what were you going to say? What's the most uncomfortable exchange you've had with a coach? Do you remember it? Yeah, for sure.

It was the Zorn thing. I mean, now, actually, that's not true. There is another one. Actually, there are another two that. With the current coach, right? Yeah, but I can't talk about that because I can't talk about it. One day I'll talk about that. I'm not going to talk about that now.

In terms of live on the radio, it was when you and I were sitting with Zorn and they had just beaten the Rams in the second week of the season. And I asked him if he was worried that if they lost to Detroit, that beating Detroit was crucial for him to keep his job. and if looks could kill. Remember that? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. He was incredulous. We won the game.

How could you ask that kind of question? I know. He was so angry. And when we went to break, he was so angry. And I remember saying to him, look, I'm sorry that question made you uncomfortable, but it's a question that for those of us that have been around here and watch this owner for the last nine years, 10 years, it's part of the conversation.

Because remember, Detroit had lost all those games in a row. They had barely beaten a Rams team that wasn't even that good that year. And there was a lot of talk that he could potentially lose his job if they lost to the Lions next week. And what particularly made that unique was we were face-to-face. We weren't on the phone. Right. And we had had a, you know,

we had had a decent, actually, yeah, we had a decent relationship with him. Like, he enjoyed, remember, he would sit with us sometimes after we were done interviewing him and listen to the show. I remember, but I remember he really, he wanted to come across the table. Like, he really was pissed. And it wasn't even his nature to be pissed.

And then we went to break, he was really angry. And I explained to him, I said, I'm sorry. That's a question that for people who have been around here, you know, this is what is out there right now. And I'm sorry, it made you uncomfortable, but I think it was the right question to ask. And then, you know, good. Yeah. I remember that very much.

There are others I remember, but that one I remember because, yes, we were sitting right across from each other, and he looked like he wanted to swing at me. he was he was never mad at me his response was always that's a great question Tom yeah that's a good question Tom he didn't like you he'd been at all the time yeah it was so far the only thing I ever the only thing I ever had close to this was when we had flip Saunders on yeah and flip you know the late Slip Saunders, God rest of his soul, was a really good guy.

And I liked having him on the show. But this was after a game where, I think it was an exhibition game, though, where Gilbert had basically engineered the lineup so he could get the players

he wanted in. Somehow through talking a guy in the same, he was hurt, so another guy would play. And he did this kind of like behind the scenes. And it somehow came out. You know?

And basically, I said, you know, I kind of grilled them on it. I said, didn't this actually wind up making Gilbert the coach for that game and not you? I don't remember this. Was I with you? Yeah, you were with him. You were with me. I don't remember this. And to his credit, he didn't bark at me.

I don't remember what his answer was. but basically I said that, you know, Giovert was putting the lineup together instead of him, which was true for that game, even though it was a preseason game. I remember Kyle got really mad at me one time when we had him on this show because I did question a clock management situation at the end of a game, and he did not want to hear it. And I, he was, anybody that ever had any conversations with Kyle will tell you, Mike and Kyle are opposites. Like, Mike is lovely to have a conversation with Kyle is, Kyle's tough.

Kyle is definitely the smartest guy in the room and is probably the smartest guy in the room. I also remember on the flip side, coaches that handled tough questions very well. I'll tell you, I'll tell you who did all the time. And I didn't think he was a great coach personally, but I really liked him. Scott Brooks was totally, like he, you could ask him anything. And he respected the question. Because remember, he had some playoff teams and they had some big games, actually. Randy. Randy Whitman was the exact same, but Randy also liked us a lot. And I think Randy always felt like, well, whatever. I think Randy really liked the show. I think Randy liked talking basketball on our show when he came on. And Mike was great. Now, we did not do the Mike hit every week. I mean, we had him obviously on the show after he was going.

on for what turned out to be kind of a blockbuster, you know, tell-all interview in 2015 or whatever it was. But Mike was awesome. And, yeah. I don't think Andy and Dave had a great time with Gibbs 2.0. Yeah. I'll tell you what, though. I think there was some tension there. There may have been some tension there.

And did he last on that show, or did he end? up going to doc. I forget how that worked out. I forget. I forget how that happened. I'll tell you what. Spurrier, on the other hand, he was fabulous. Spurrier was the best, but I wasn't even in the business then, but I remember Andy and Steve having Spurrier on every week. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just trying to think if there's that, there have always been some absolute lovely people in town and people who, you know, if you ended up having something that got a little bit awkward, would, you know, they didn't have their feelings hurt. But there were other people that were always sensitive to that.

And like you and I have always said about Washington, this is not a tough sports town at all. And I think one of the things that I remember, you know, we've both shared probably with the PR people, certainly with the football team over the years, is there was always this very combative, you know, position that the team took with media, especially sports talk media, especially by the way, their flagship station 980 for many years, which we've talked about before.

But I think it was interesting in that you had, you know, a Pacific Northwest guy in Zorn. Then you had Mike who had been in Denver his whole career and was beloved, and Denver's not a tough media market. And then you had Jay who was coming from Cincinnati, basically, and then Ron, who was coming from Charlotte. You know, if you had had coaches coming from tough media markets into town, I think that there would have been, you know, a different feeling. And if you had PR people, et cetera, that understood. But man, they always felt out there that the DC media was ruthless and relentless and so difficult. And I don't know, from my standpoint, I've never felt that that was the case.

But then again, we've got the perspective of having listened to, you know, other sports talk radio and other parts of the country where it's, you know, sometimes a lot more abrasive, a lot tougher. Try Philadelphia on for size. I mean, they're killing the Eagles right now on a regular. And they were in the Super Bowl last year. year and they were 10 and 1. They want everybody fired. Pretty funny. All right, let's finish up with your prediction. We'll spare each other from our you heard it here first bold predictions for the

week since we're running along here. But it's Thursday, and for the final time this year, Tom's prediction on Washington's Sunday game this week against the Cowboys. Okay, well, I'm going to exhibit the same confidence in Sam Howe that hopefully Josh Harris has exhibited and predict a 23 to 10 Washington loss. Ooh, cover. They cover. They're 13.5. They do.

13 and a half point dogs. Yeah. Oh, my God. Yes. They cover on that. They cover. 23 to 10. 23 to 10.

Yeah. But Eric B. enemy, but just barely he squeaks past Scott Turner in total point. scored for his offense. And Ron Rivera ends his head coaching career as a sub-500 coach. I wonder

if that's been part of the conversation at all. I doubt it. Did you have... Oh, I don't doubt it. I believe every bit that that's part of the conversation. Yeah. All right. Not enough for him to do something about it. All right. Final score prediction for the final time this year,

23 to 10. Tommy's got the Cowboys over Washington. And when we reconvene on Tuesday, I think we will be in full off-season mode. I mean, I would certainly expect Ron will have been fired on Monday. You know, it's his birthday on Sunday. But I think he'll be fired on Monday. And then, you know, I don't know when the new hiring will begin, but it's possible we'll get some new names and new hires next week. I'm looking. forward to this, actually. I think it's going to be really interesting. Oaks Eternal. Well, you know what? It'll be a new day for sure. And we'll see how much house cleaning takes place.

All right. Have a good weekend. I'll talk to you on Tuesday. All right, boss. I'm back tomorrow with Jay Gruden.