The Kevin Sheehan Show - Is Brady Really The GOAT?

Episode Date: January 26, 2021

Kevin and Thom opened the show with news that Thom and his wife may get the vaccine on Thursday. Kevin's parenting decisions which include teaching his sons basic black-jack strategy and how to play craps were snickered at by Thom. Lots of Matt Stafford talk and a discussion about whether or not Tom Brady really is the GOAT under certain discussion parameters. Thom on Hank Aaron and his HOF vote too.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Cheyenne show. Here's Kevin. All right, Tommy's here today. He wrote a column on Hank Aaron. We didn't have a chance to really get to that yesterday. I was saving it for Tommy. So we'll talk about Hank Aaron today. More on Matt Stafford. If you miss the show with Cooley yesterday, I would urge you to go back. And not only listen to the recaps of the two games, but to also, listen to the lengthy quarterback discussion, which started with Matt Stafford. Cooley believes it may ultimately, because of the incredible interest in Matt Stafford and the number of teams, the price may go to like two first rounders, especially if you've got a later first round pick, which Washington has. Washington doesn't have their typical early first round pick this year. We've got a lot to get to today. I know you have something that you wanted to start with that you actually may be getting the vaccine today?

Yes. It's a bit complicated because nothing is simple in Florida. You know, and what we were doing was we were going, I mean, there would be notices that would pop up that at 5 o'clock in the morning, if you went on this website at a certain time, you might be able to get in to get an appointment. Now, we've done this like three or four times and have not. been able to get in. Right. I mean, because, I mean, they're screwing up this whole vaccine distribution thing. It's a mess. But I thought it was all going to be fixed after last week. Well, it's going to,

it's going to take a little bit of time. Oh, okay. You know, I mean, when you're cleaning up a pile of trash, it takes more than a day. I got news for you. Government never works, regardless of administration, Democratic or Republican. Government doesn't work very efficiently, but continue. Well, government does not work efficiently, but it works. I mean, the other one didn't work. Right. Okay. Well, they did get a vaccine pretty quickly, like in record time.

A couple of them, actually. But go ahead. Actually, I don't think they had anything to do with that. Okay. Go ahead. No, you might be right about that. I don't know who had anything to do with it. Okay.

I'm just saying that government worked, actually, in the last nine months, government worked pretty quickly or somebody worked pretty quickly to get vaccines, multiple vaccines in record time. It's insane if you think that government had anything. I have no idea. I have no idea who had anything to do with it. I certainly would give Pfizer and Moderna and some of the others a lot of credit for it. But I just know this, correct me if I'm wrong, it was a record amount of time that a vaccine was developed.

Yes, because we were dealing with the worst pandemic in 100 years. Right. It shouldn't be a surprise. Yeah. No, I'm glad. I'm glad we were able or somebody was able to put it together so quickly. Anyway. Have you gone through all your Fox Newspoints or can I continue?

No, those aren't Fox News points. You know me better than that. Those are just my reactions. Like, I would have told you, had this been a Democratic administration, government typically doesn't work very quickly. I think that's true. I think typically... I agree with you.

Yeah. Government does not work. That's my position. Look, that's what happens when you have a democratic society. Of course. And you tend to include people. Things will move slow. No doubt.

It's a lot different than, the private sector and the, you know, prior to getting into broadcasting, which is more like a government institution, the previous businesses that I were involved in were always much faster working. It was. It's pretty much one guy says, let's do this. No. Everyone says, okay. Well, but it's whether or not you had the right people along and they weren't looking for, you know, three, 15 minute breaks and an hour lunch and nine to five hours. You know, sometimes it takes a little bit more.

You've got to stay a little bit later than 5 o'clock to get the job done. Anyway, what about your vaccine? Are you going to get a vaccine? About government workers. No, I'm not. Well, we got an appointment. Yeah. We have an appointment.

So what does that mean? On Thursday. Yeah. But here's the rub. I mean, they have made a big point of saying you have to be a Florida resident. Ooh. Which kind of seems a bit like, first they didn't. And then apparently they had people like,

driving from other states to come to Florida to get it. I don't know why. I mean, it wasn't particularly easy to get it here. But somebody complained to Governor DeSantis that there were people taking vaccine cations, where they were coming to Florida to get the vaccine. I love that. Vaccine cations. Yeah.

So, vacications. He came out and said, well, now you've got to be a Florida resident. Well, I mean, half the population down here this winter are from, you know, are snowbirds. Of course. You know, so, I mean, you can't really do that. So I'm kind of curious how this will unfold. We made our appointment, and we're going to bring a copy of our lease with us. We're leasing a property for two and a half months.

That sounds like a Florida resident to me. And we have a post office box. I get my mail down here now, you know. So we're hoping we get to the point where when we get up there and get the shot, We're not going to get some lunatic who says, well, you're not a Florida resident. We're not going to give you the vaccine. Do you know which vaccine you're going to get? Do you have any idea?

No, I don't. I don't know. It could be the Looney Tunes vaccine for all I care. Well, I mean, you know, the more and more you read about these secondary strains, like I was reading yesterday. And again, who the hell knows if this stuff is true or not. But the Moderna vaccine apparently is good for these, you know, these additional strains. you know, the UK strain that is now showing up, you know, throughout the country that apparently is much more transmissible, et cetera, versus the Pfizer vaccine, versus whatever Johnson and Johnson has

coming out. The Moderna and the Pfizer, I could be wrong about this too. I'm trying to follow it, but I'm not, you know, right now, I'm not on the list that would qualify for an early vaccine. If I drove by like a CVS or a Safeway pharmacy, which is the pharmacy I use, and I use the CVS too, but CVS, the lines are way too long. And they were in one of those situations where people didn't show up for their vaccines and they say, hey, we've got some vaccine. You want it? I would take it. I would obviously take it. But I'm not on any list for it because I'm at this point, you know, well below the age of and the condition, although,

I don't feel great recently of qualifying for it. But the Moderna requires the booster like a couple of months later, right? And I think the Pfizer does as well. Oh, yeah, I think they both do. Yeah. And I read a story on NPR yesterday that said when you get the first vaccine, it takes about 12 days for to really, for the protection to sink into your body. Yeah.

And then you're only about 52% protected. Well, that's better than zero percent protected. Yes, yes, it is. That's basically the flu vaccine. The flu vaccine is basically about 52%. Oh, I thought it was higher than that. No, it's like a 50% proposition. They didn't tell you that for years.

Isn't that interesting? Because I would, you know, the perception is, oh, I got my flu shot. I'm not going to get the flu. But basically what they did is they just made it a coin flip. Well, you know what? I think it was sort of a coin flip anyway, wasn't it? I guess, yeah, you're right, because I've gotten the vaccine and gotten the flu the same year. What are the chances of getting the flu in any given year? Obviously, age, condition, vulnerability, all of that plays into it. But for the average, healthy 50-year-old, what are the chances that you're going to get the flu each year?

Because if... I don't know. You're the guy with the CDC source. I'm going to ask him. That's a good question. I want to write that one down when I'm walking my dog tonight and I run into my CDC neighbors. Percentage chance of getting the flu if you're relatively healthy. Because, you know, I've never gotten a flu shot. And I knock on wood because there's a bit of superstition here in this and trying to prevent something.

I haven't gotten a flu in, I can't remember. getting the flu. The thing that I've gotten, I've told you this before, once or twice over the last 10 years is strep throat. I've had strep throat like twice. And that's, you know, an antibiotic, boom, done, see ya. Right. I have not gotten the flu, but I, and I haven't gotten a flu shot. If you're telling me that a flu shot is 52% effective and there's still a 48% chance that if I come across it in a 20% chance of maybe coming across it and contracting it, I don't, I'm not getting a flu shot. Why?

What's it hurt? Well, I'm probably not going to get the flu anyway. You're right. It doesn't hurt. It doesn't hurt. Of course not. If you were going into a poker. Why are we doing this?

If you were going into a poker game. Yeah. And you had a device that would increase your chances of winning the hand by 50%. Sounds like cheating. Wouldn't you use it? No, because I'm not a cheater. I'm not a cheater. Oh, okay.

Without cheating. Let's say without cheating. By the way, you'll be proud of me. My son, my oldest son, and his cousin and a couple of friends, they were in Vegas the other night. They were at the encore. And I see the, I see a call coming through. And basically, they want a quick tutorial on how to play cross. Crapes. So, you know, who are we going to call? Oh, we can call my dad.

Call Kevin's dad. We can call my dad. He'll tell us how to play. And, you know, you know, the funny thing about trying to explain craps to somebody without being in front of a craps table, it's not easy. Blackjack is much easier to explain. All you need is a deck of cards. And, you know, over the years, I've taught my boys basic blackjack strategy and, you know, when and when not to double down and to take advantage of that opportunity. Craps is just much harder without, you know, a table, even though I've tried to tell them, look, it's not as hard as it appears to be. If it were the people that crowd casinos and play the game, if it were really that hard, you wouldn't see half of those people there. It's like anything else. Once you learn it, it's pretty easy.

Anyway, I was the go-to father on the craps tutorial. I love these father-son stories. They're so heartwarming. It's like a field of dreams moment. You know, at the end of the movie, Kevin's son says to him, Hey, dad, you want to play some crafts? It was funny. I was sitting there, and Carol walks by, she's like, who are you talking to?

And I said, our son and several of his friends. Where are they? She had no idea. I go, they're in Vegas. They're at the encore. They're getting ready to go down to the casino. All right. Okay, so you want to talk about the games at all from Sunday?

you haven't had a chance to weigh in on those. Well, I mean, I picked, I remember I was on the podcast the last time saying the Packers will be up 21 to nothing before you come back from the bathroom. Yeah, that wasn't a good pick. So that didn't quite turn out to be the case. But I guess I kind of underestimated Bruce Arient and his coaching staff because that seemed to have a big impact on the game compared to me. Matt with floor. It just seemed like Tampa, which really had not looked. I mean, they didn't look impressive against Washington. You know, they beat a New Orleans team that had a quarterback who couldn't throw more than 10 yards. I just didn't have the sense that Tampa really had what it

took to do this. And the Packers seemed the closest thing to a powerhouse in the NFC at this point. So what went wrong? You tell me what went wrong. One of my favorite coaches, as you know, over the years, Todd Bowles, someone I would have thought about hiring when Washington had the opening last year as a head coach, even though he didn't have great success as a head coach in New York. I think he's really smart. I think he's really aggressive. And I think they faced, Green Bay faced a really good coordinator and a really good defense with some really good players on it, too. and the funny thing is they were missing one of their best players. You know, the guy that's probably going to finish his runner up to Chase Young

and the rookie of the year defensively in Antoine Winfield Jr. So I give bowls in that defense the most credit. Brady was brilliant in the first half, though. You know, they converted on seven of their first eight third down attempts, and I think they were all throws. You know, Brady was on fire, and he had, you know, he had a third straight playoff game where guys were dropping balls left and right. But it's just amazing to me.

You have to start with Todd Bowles because when you consider that Tom Brady through three second half interceptions and yet his team won, well, then they won with defense. And it was the defense that stopped Aaron Rogers on three drives. The first two were three and outs when they were down 28, 23. And the last one at 31, 23, he didn't get it in on the first three downs. And then Matt LaFleur stopped him on the fourth down by taking the ball out of his hands. I really, I don't think Todd Bowles over the years is just, I think people in the game understand what he is and how good he is. And I would love to see him get another head coaching job opportunity at some point because I think he really knows what he's doing. He just didn't have a quarterback in New York, but his defense is Tommy, were really good in New York.

No, you're right. You're right. So anyway. Now, I have not talked to you, and sometimes you tend to be contrarian about this. so you're kind of unpredictable. But the Green Bay Drive, where they pick the field goal instead of going for it. Yeah, it was 100% the wrong call. Okay.

That's what I mean. Yeah, you can't. When you have Aaron Rogers and then you're facing Bruce Ariens and Tom Brady so you know they're going to be aggressive, you, and the field position had a lot to do with it too. You're at the eight-yard line. So even if you miss, you know, you're, You've got a better chance of getting it back in that kind of field position situation. Yeah, I thought it was the wrong call.

Now, what I did say and, you know, emphasize yesterday on the podcast with Cooley is that, and I've said this before in the past, like, when announcers or even, you know, analysts, you know, on TV talk about an eight-point game as a one-possession game, a one-score game, it might be, but it probably isn't. And that's the thing that, you know, over the years, like when you're down eight, I understand there's a chance you can tie it, but it's less than 50-50 based on the two-point conversion rate. If you just take the average, it's a little bit less than 50-50, which means more likely

than not, you're not going to tie the game in one possession, which is whenever teams are down by eight, I always think, man, you've got to go faster because you may need the ball back. You can't assume that this, like so many teams you'll see down eight, they treat it as if this is a final drive to tie the game. And they shouldn't. And I think that, you know, there are circumstances where kicking the field goal would have made sense. Not that one, though. Not the field position, not the quarterback that you have, not the offense and aggressiveness that Ariens and Brady you knew would come back with.

They weren't going to run it three times, you know, and pun it back to Aaron Rogers. that wasn't going to happen. So, yeah, you go for it. There was, I think I mentioned this yesterday. There were two other instances over the last 10 years in the postseason where a team was down between four and eight points and kicked a field goal with five minutes or less. And one of them made total sense.

And it was New Orleans was down 16 to 8 against Seattle and had, I think, a fourth and 15 at the third. 30-yard line with 4-50 to go. You kick the field goal there. You know, you probably, getting the fourth and 15 is a long shot. Plus, the context of the game is 16 to 8, so it's a defensive game to begin with. The problem with the game the other day, too, is it's 28-23, or 31-23. Like, no one's really stopped the other much at all. Although, again, you know, the two big possessions down 28-23, Tampa's defense came up really. Really, really big.

I, man, this Super Bowl's crazy. By the way, I was going to save this for later if we had, if we needed something else. But I'm going to get to it now because it's been an argument in my home, not with my son who was at the encore playing craps all night, but with another son who's really the big sports fan. I've got two, three boys you know, I've told you before. Two of them are massive sports fans. and then one of them just couldn't care less about it. He was the one at the casino. He couldn't care less about these games.

But my middle son is just an Aaron Rogers guy. He loves Aaron Rogers. And he just all day yesterday when I got home. How can you say Brady's better than Rogers? Okay, he's the greatest winner of all time at quarterback. But you've watched Aaron Rogers. You've watched Tom Brady. How can you watch them play and say that Brady's better than Rogers?

he's not the only one that feels that way. And so I'm going to ask you this, and then I'll answer it afterwards. If we took all of the winning and the championships out of the conversation and we just watch these guys play like we have for years, like who would you take? Who's the guy that you would say, yeah, I want that guy in his prime to be my quarterback more than any other? If you didn't know about the winning, if you didn't know.

You take the winning out of it. Yes. Okay. And you're just talking about ability to play the position. Right. Well, this is easy. It's Jeff George. No.

Why not? Take the winning out. No, you're just talking about talent now. I'm not just talking about talent. I'm talking about the whole package. I'm talking about talent, smart, you know, the whole thing. Leadership. Well, that includes.

winning. Okay, but I'm asking for the purposes of base just qualitatively, right, take all the numbers out of it. You know, look, your answer is an answer that would indicate he's the most gifted player you've ever seen at the position. But I want you to have spent the last, you know, 50 years of your football watching life watching these guys play and just not knowing what the results were in the postseason. How's that? Okay. So I'll just say, you don't know what the results were in the postseason. Okay. It's Dan Marina.

He's certainly near the top of my list. There's no doubt about it. But for you, it's not Brady? I mean, under those conditions, he's not ahead of them. No. I sort of agree with that. You know, and I ended up in this long conversation with my son, and I'm like, look, I know what I'm watching,

when I watch Aaron Rogers too. He is special. He's one of the four, five, six that have done it at a level that very, you know, that everybody else hasn't. You know, I think Montana, who a lot of people would, you know, might answer that question with. I really think Montana was such, I think he was a great quarterback. I think he was a phenomenal clutch quarterback. But I also think he was such a perfect fit for the Bill Walsh West Coast offense. Don't you think Steve Young was a better quarterback than John Montana? You're breaking up a little bit, so you're going to have to move your position, but I don't want to stop this conversation

or even edit it, but you've broken up a little bit of the last couple of comments. You asked about Steve Young versus Montana? In some ways, yes. Like if I didn't know how it turned out in the post-season, for both of them? I don't know, Tommy. Montana was really spectacular. Elway and Marino would really be at the top of my list. Those are the two guys I've always felt in my football watching life were just the whole packages.

And for different reasons, you know, Marino's the quickest trigger, best arm, most accurate, unbelievable pocket presence, incredible leadership, incredible everything. and Elway was the same thing, but also had the incredible mobility. They were both incredible leaders, orchestrators. Elway and Marino, for me... Well, I would have to include Johnny United in any list like this, particularly when it comes to leadership skills. I mean, you know, I saw United's play.

When I did the John Mackey book, I talked to players who played with United He swear by him as a leader. So, I mean, I got to include Johnny United's at the top of my list as well. I can't. On the Unitas thing, I didn't see him. You know, I didn't see him when he was Unitas. You know, I almost hesitate to say that I saw Sonny Jurgensen when Sonny was at his best, because I don't remember Sonny when he was, you know, putting up massive numbers.

I remember Sonny at the very end of his career. I don't know, Tommy. it's weird because I also just, as we started to think about this, like, Randall Cunningham a couple of times watching him, I thought, I remember thinking watching Randall Cunningham, this dude is a total, you know, unicorn. Like, we've never seen anything like Randall Cunningham before. You know, I'm talking about early and even when he got to Minnesota, but not winning enough has always kept Randall out of those kinds of conversations. And so, you know, and we'd almost have to say because we're not, we're not excluding regular season, that be hard for me to say that I would, you know, I would take somebody like Randall Cunningham ahead of Drew Brees or ahead of, you know, Peyton or Montana or even Farr. Look, Fav, if you didn't know the playoff losses and there were plenty of them, you know, I don't even know what Farr's playoff. career is. Farve was spectacular.

I've never been a massive Farr fan, in part because he would always make big mistakes in some of the biggest moments. But, I don't know, Elway and Marino for me, maybe in front of Brady, and maybe in

front of Brady and Peyton. Yeah, and like, you know, Pat Mahomes may wind up bypassing them all. I mean, because he does things I've never seen a quarterback do. that I can remember. It's interesting. He mentioned Randall Cunningham. I think if Joe Gibbs

was Randall Cunningham's coach, then I'll take Randall Cunningham over everybody else. You feel the same way about Randall. I think actually you said that to you. Oh, I thought he's one of the greatest offensive players I've ever seen. Yeah. I mean, he played for Buddy Ryan, who had no interest in offense. Imagine if he had played for Gibbs. Yeah.

I think the short list for me would be Elway Marino, Peyton Brady Rogers, right now, with Mahomes coming quickly. Young, I really think sometimes in these conversations, Roger Stalk doesn't get enough of credit for being really the dual threat guy long before there were. I know Tarkington was a massive scrambler, too, so I understand that. But Stawback was bigger, had a bigger arm. Stawback also played on better teams. Tarkington played on some great teams in Minnesota, not such great teams in New York. But Elway was so, like, if you didn't know how many Super Bowls Elway lost, it'd be hard to think of many people that were greater than John Elway as a quarterback in the NFL.

He had it all. He has historically one of the strongest arms in NFL history. He was super accurate. He was unbelievable as a pocket guy, incredible as a playmaker. He was clutch. He was a great leader. He was phenomenal at the line of scrimmage. He processed quickly, all of those things. He had it all. Like Elway really had it all. You think about just watching Elway at his best. And I'm not talking about in the Super Bowls that he did win when they were running the football with Shanahan. When he was basically strapping that team to his back and taking it to Super Bowls and winning playoff games, including playoff games on the road, like in Cleveland, he was unbelievable in his prime. Unbelievable in his prime.

Marino was unbelievable in his prime, but in a different way than Lway. So, like, when I, in watching Brady, if you told me, if I didn't know what his playoff success was, the truth is, there's no way I'd pick him over Elway or Marino. I wouldn't. And I would probably think, like, my son thinks that Aaron Rogers, you know, had more, I would say Aaron Rogers probably had more success in the postseason than Brady did. I think, I think at some point when we consider he's played long enough. This conversation will be about Pat Mahomes and Pat Mahomes only. It might be.

I mean, look, I watched a playoff game. And my wife, Neves doesn't care about football, doesn't like football, never watch it. Well, she watched the playoff game, the Chiefs game, and the builds. And she was mesmerized by Mahom. I mean, you know, I mean, this is the people who don't watch football, or watch this guy and say, this guy's amazing. I mean, that's transcendent. I do remember very early in his first year of starting two years ago.

We had just launched the podcast, and you and I were doing it from Chatter, you know, from Chattowicz. And it was like three weeks in, and he had thrown for some ridiculous number of touchdowns, and people were already putting him in the Hall of Fame. And you and I mocked it. We're like, can we wait? Can we just see a few more games? You know, the truth is it really didn't take that many more games. No, it didn't.

And when you watch the Chiefs play, you know, it's not even the same game that most of the rest of the league play. Not even the same, not even close. I know everyone's excited about Washington and people are saying they're real close. Well, they may be real close to a certain point, but they're not even in the same. city when it comes to what the chiefs do. By the way, I agree with you on that. The chiefs are spectacular. And the reason is they have truly one of the most fear-inducing offensive skill position

players that we've seen in years in Hill. And they've got the same in their quarterback. So they have quarterback wide receiver. And by the way, their tight end is elite, like Hall of Fame elite. You know, Mahomes' first three games, Tommy, that he started. the year after Alex Smith in 2018. Four touchdown passes, six touchdown passes, three touchdown passes. He threw 13 touchdown passes and no interceptions in its first three games.

And I'll never forget there was a show. And people were like putting him in the Hall of Fame already. They were already saying this guy may be one of the greatest we've ever seen. And you and I were both, oh, stop it. It's three games. It's three games. And he really has been, I mean, it's unbelievable. And it's been basically, you know, this is season three. And nobody's accomplished more individually than Patrick Mahomes in his first three seasons as a starter. Nobody has. It's ridiculous what he's done here in these first three years. He's threw 50 touchdown passes in 2018. he's thrown 114 touchdowns and 24 interceptions in three years of starting.

That's stunning. That's arena football numbers. And let's not forget. He is an incredible runner, too. And everything he did last week he did with turf toe, which apparently you're not supposed to be able to play with. You know what, though? I'm very much looking forward to the Super Bowl matchup.

I'm glad we got this one. I wouldn't have minded the Packers being in it. I think that would have been a great matchup, too. But to see, I know everybody's focused on Brady versus Mahomes, the goat versus the kid, I really want to see what Bowles comes up with. Because I'll tell you what, they have, you know what Washington didn't have to do?

They didn't have to face Tampa with Devin White. He's so good. Anyway, that's, that's a conversation we could probably go on and on with, but we will cut it off there. Up next, we'll get Tommy's thoughts on Matt Stafford. I have some information on John Allen. I want to share that with everybody when we come back right after this word from one of our sponsors. I'm going to ask Tommy about whether or not he thinks Washington should be aggressive going after Matt Stafford here in a moment.

I'll update everybody on the poll that I did yesterday. But I wanted to just mention something about John Allen first. So a lot of people, Tommy, I did a call segment this morning, which, you know, it was one of those where I could have done it for five hours consecutively, where I just said, Matt Stafford, yes or no. And if it's yes, tell me how high you'd go in terms of compensation. And if it's no, what's, you know, what's your solution, a quarterback? A lot of people think, you know, Taylor Heineke's the solutioner, Kyle Allen's the solutioner, Alex Smith is going to be much better next year, or they should draft a quarterback. That's all fine. Most of you know I would be aggressive in trying to get Matt Stafford. Now, I don't think Matt Stafford is going to get traded to Washington. I think he's going to get traded to an AFC team, and I think it's going to be Indianapolis or New England. That's my personal opinion. I don't think Washington's going to have the draft capital to match up to some of the other teams that may be in the running for him. But anyway,

so many of you have said, throw John Allen into the deal. Throw Jonathan Allen into the deal. And I know why you're saying that, because, you know, you're saying that. because he's the one they've got to make a decision on in terms of paying him. You know, they picked up the fifth year option on him, which means he's going to earn $10 million next year in his fifth year. And so he's under contract next year. But they've got to pay him if they want to keep him. If not, he's an unrestricted free agent in 2022.

And then, you know, he could potentially walk without getting anything back. And most of you look at Montez Sweat and Chase Young and Dron Payne and Matt Ionitis coming back and some of the depth they have with, you know, guys like, Tim Settle and you say, that's a guy who's good enough that teams will want, and you can include into a trade, and, you know, people will want him, and he's valuable. But we've got better. And a lot of people, I think that's the mindset of a lot of fans. So a couple of things. Number one, keep in mind, because he does not have a contract that goes beyond next year, he's not that attractive as a trade target unless you know you can sign him to a long-term deal. It's the same thing you got into with Trent Williams to a certain extent.

John Allen isn't just going to be thrown into a deal because he's so valuable and people are, oh, I'm getting John Allen, I'm getting a really good player that has one year left on his rookie deal. That's not going to happen, number one. Number two is this, and I've learned this and I knew this already, but I'm a lot. I confirmed it after my radio show this morning. They love John Allen. Ron Rivera, Jack Del Rio, they love John Allen.

John Allen is the new culture. John Allen is everything they want in terms of representing the kind of culture they want this franchise to become. I'm telling you guys right now, if they trade John Allen, I would be very very very, surprised. By the way, he's a good player, a really good player. And if you go back to the giant Super Bowl teams, the two teams that beat the Patriots, what did they have just plenty of? D-Lineman, pass rushers, interior and exterior. John Allen's a good player, you know. Is he Duran Payne physically, you know, gifted as pain is? No, I think pain could be, I think Payne had to be, I think Payne has the talent to be a top three player at his position. I do. And I think Young's the same way. And I think

Sweat's certainly a top five guy at his position potentially. And, you know, settles, you know, gives him really good depth. Remember, they're not going to have Ryan Carrigan next year on the outside anyway, as a D-N sub. I just don't think they're going to move on from John Allen. I just think that they love John Allen. And I would wager much more on him signing a long-term deal than being included in some sort of a trade. That's the way I feel. I know they feel that way about him. Now, if you had a chance to get Deshawn Watson for three firsts a second and they said, we need John Allen. Well, you might do that. Like, there may be a deal where John Allen's included where you have to part with a guy that you love. But they are not planning on parting with John

Allen. They're planning on, I think, signing John Allen eventually to a long-term deal. It's not an exaggeration, Tommy, to say that John Allen may be one of the favorites, if not the favorite player of the coaching staff, especially the head coach and the defensive coordinator. Well, if Ron Rivera wants Jonathan Allen to stay, he's staying. that's what's going to happen because, and we haven't talked about this yet, the whole new front office. I mean, the hiring of Marty Herney and Martin Mayhew, I mean, this is like burying the lead. I really do think for the first time in our memory, this has the best chance to succeed. I think that the power.

Look, I've covered enough sports teams to know how power works in front offices. And it's all about who do you owe your job to? Okay, this is, I think, one of the reasons I'm speculating why Ron Rivera wasn't a particular Kyle Smith fan because he didn't hire him. You know, Kyle Smith doesn't owe his job to Ron Rivera. Okay, Martin Herney does. Martin Mayne, who does. Everybody has pretty much been hired since Rivera came here owes their job to him. That means they're going to be loyal to him. And that's going to come into play if and when he has to have conflicts with the owner. I mean, before, it was always two-on-one. It was Dan and Bruce against Gruden. It was very very, very, Benny and Dan against Zorn. I mean, Gibbs doesn't count.

He was a power structure onto himself. The last, you have to go back to Marty, really, to the balance of power. Yes. So much in the hands of the coach as opposed to now. And I think that, you know, by bringing all these people on board who are Ron Rivera guys, not Dan Snyder guys, even though Dan signs the check, I think this could be their best shot at actually overturning the culture in the building. Boys and girls, did you hear that?

Did you hear Tommy's optimism? Oh my God, are we going to have a new Tommy? You know, there was a moment a few years back where you were basically going to be on board with this team if they just started Colt McCoy. If they had just gone the Colt McCoy route, you were going to be Mr. Positive. I don't, I'll say what I said last week and whenever else about Herney and Mayhew. I know Mayhew is a really decent person, and I think he probably did a better job in Detroit than maybe the record indicates. I think Marty Herney should probably get more credit for the three divisional titles in the Super Bowl.

They lost to Denver was basically his team that he drafted. But to me, I'm just going to keep coming back to the same things. For this franchise to succeed, and for me, it's always been not about every four or five years making the playoffs with a late season run. I want a winner. I want five, six, seven, eight years of being in the playoffs for more than 50% of those years and two different times having a chance to make a deep run to maybe a Super Bowl. I want that. And there's only, you know, Marty Herney and Ron Rivera and Martin Mayhew are really important to that, but not as important as the owner staying out of it, A, and getting a quarterback B. You have to get, you got to keep Dan on the boat and away from all this, and you've got to go get the quarterback. You have to go get the quarterback. And Matt Stafford, to me, would be getting the quarterback that would give you a chance, over a five-year period to be a playoff team every year. You know, especially with...

I agree with you. I agree with you, but I don't think, like you said, I don't think they're going to get Stafford either. I don't think it's going to happen. But I think they need to find... This is a big offseason, Tommy. You know, all that brain trust coming together, I guarantee you on their to-do list, solving the quarterback problem is way up there. Jeremy Fowler wrote yesterday, according to all of the NFL execs that he's talking.

to everybody's expecting Washington to be aggressive in trying to find a quarterback this year. You know, I know a lot of you want Taylor Heineke or Kyle Allen, and I was impressed with Kyle Allen, and I was really impressed with Taylor Heineke in the playoff game. Taylor He's played in three NFL games, and he's gotten hurt in all three of them. He was an XFL quarterback, boys and girls. If either one of them led this team to a Super Bowl, they would become just the third undraft player in NFL history to lead their team to a Super Bowl game, not a win necessarily the game. Kurt Warner did it and won one of them, and Jake Delome did it. Ironically, in Carolina,

where Marty Herney at the time was the general manager, and Jake Delon was the starting quarterback in that Super Bowl that they lost to the Patriots 32 to 29. I know that Scott Turner really likes Heineke and really likes Kyle Allen. And I think if they strike out on any of the guys that they go for, whether it's a Stafford or a Darnold or somebody else, or if there isn't somebody they love in the draft, I think they feel like they can be a competitive team next year with Allen and or Heineke.

But you're not going to run five, six, seven years in a row with playoff games virtually every year or being in the playoffs most of the, the time in having a chance to win it all or get there. I don't think personally, I don't think with Heineke and or Allen. Now, again, I think, I know I could be wrong in this. Either one of them could end up being Kurt Warner. They could, but the odds are against it.

Yes. Yeah, and the quarterback, what it goes without saying, is very important, you know, to them being able to move forward. but I think that their chances of getting it right at quarterback, if not this year, at some point in the very immediate future, are significantly increased with the change in power. Okay. Yeah, well, if Snyder's not involved.

I mean, it's not so much whether or not you think Mayhew or Herney or good talent evaluators, they're not Dan guys. Yeah. That's all that matters. Well, Rivera technically is a Dan guy. Well, he's, he isn't, he isn't. I know. I get it.

No, you're right. Look, you know I would have felt really confident with Mike picking a quarterback. You know, and he pretty much did in picking Kirk Cousins in the fourth round. You know, but the bottom line is they stuck him with Donovan McNabb. And then, you know, he got RG3 and he wasn't against him. it, but the owner got involved in that relationship. By the way, we didn't even talk about this last week. He got released. Do you think anybody's going to give him a chance? I think he's done. Yeah, I think he is too. And then Haskins got signed by Pittsburgh.

Yes. That's a good place for him. It's a great place for him. If he can't, if he, if he's not able to convince a guy that you can't fool, Mike Tomlin, that he is a different. guy, then no one's going to buy into him. Nobody is. This is his chance. Maybe the last chance, amazingly. And by the way, that just, that leads me to this, and then we'll get to your column. It is quite remarkable here on January 26th that the offseason is underway, and Dwayne Haskins is not a part of the quarterback conversation at all. Like, just think about that for a moment, because regardless of what you thought of him and when he played this year, you know, the thought that he wasn't going to be a part of the conversation in January.

I mean, we may have been saying, hey, there's a chance they're going to try to trade him here, and maybe they'll cut him. They cut him before the end of the season. Like, he's not a part of the conversation. I'm sorry? And that is, that is the Rivera thing. Let's say the owner didn't draft Dwayne Haskins.

Let's say they had a real general manager who had drafted Dwayne Haskins. he would have been here for four years, no matter what he did wrong, because general managers do not give up on their own draft picks. That's how it works. Yeah, but the question is, would a good general manager have drafted Dwayne Haskins probably not? I know it probably wouldn't have happened, but if a general manager had drafted him, he'd still be the quarterback, but since the owner drafted him, and it was such a dysfunctional process, and it's such a self-destructive organization.

He's out the door already. Yeah, but there was a time, and this would speak to maybe it's a different day, that because the owner picked him, he's not going for a few more years. Remember, I mean, eventually they got around, you know, Jay Gruden got around to being able to bench RG3. Eventually, you know, they got around to benching Dwayne Haskins this year and we're not giving them a legitimate shot. eventually they got around to benching McNabb, but it wasn't, it was never easy.

It was always the last, it was always when the owner sort of had no other choice. Like it was so obvious at that point. Yeah. Well, I just want to say the additions of Herney and Mayhew, I think, are the real positive sign if you're a Washington football fan that you might be able to change the culture, along with Jason Wright in the building and just overwhelmed Dan with decision makers that he can't control. I hope you're right. I mean, you know, you know I loved the Rivera hire, and I am optimistic about Rivera,

and if we're just keeping the conversation to let's just discuss the football operation and how it's changed and just for a moment, keep the owner or the owner's potential for fucking it up out of the conversation. I like what they have right now. It's a hell of a lot better than anything they've had in a while. They've got real adults. They've got some good football coaches. They've got, you know, smart people. You know, a lot of people will look at the resumes and say, well, there's nothing, you know,

there's nothing thrilling about anybody's resume there, even Rivera's. And I buy into all that. But these are three guys that. done it and have had some success and know what they're doing. And you've had basically, you know, two-thirds of the Stooges. You know, if you throw Vinny in there, you've had, you've had Larry Mo Curley, all of them, you know, over the last 21 years. And it's been a disaster, a disaster. So if they, if he leaves these guys alone, you know, something could happen. You got to get the quarterback though, Tommy. Got to get a quarterback. I mean, that's,

I mean, that's just obvious. Brett Farr's playoff record was 13 and 11 overall, but he threw 30 interceptions in 24 playoff games. I guess that's a lot. Had a lot of turnovers in playoff games, but was 13 and 11. All right, when we come back, Tommy wrote a column about Hank Aaron,

about the Hall of Fame. We're going to get to that. Also, today is the anniversary of one of the biggest wins. in Washington football team history. More on that too, right after this word from one of our sponsors. 29 years ago today, Tommy, Super Bowl 26, Washington 37,

Buffalo 24, at the Metro Dome in Minneapolis, and I was there. I was there with the woman who would become my wife. We were not married. We weren't even engaged at that point, but we were dating,

and we were in Minneapolis for the weekend, and it was a spectacular weekend. It was one of those Super Bowls. Were you at that Super Bowl, I forget? No, that was right before I started working in sports. So that was a Super Bowl that many people feared. You know, the Detroit Super Bowl, which was 49ers Bengals, had like frigid temperatures. And it was Detroit.

There was nothing they could do. Minneapolis was different. They had the skyways. They had a bunch of events, indoors, outdoors. It was a great weekend. And obviously, Washington beat Buffalo on that day 29 years ago. 37, 24. They built a 31 to 10 lead.

They were 24 nothing early in the third quarter when Richie Pettibone told Kurt Gauve at halftime. You're going to get an interception if you go right here on their first play. Richie was the best. Richie knew everything before it happened. And they hammered Buffalo in that Super Bowl. and it was to me their best team, the 91 team. I don't even think it's close. And I think it's among, if not the greatest Super Bowl,

complete Super Bowl winning team of all time. We talked about Martin Mayhew, you know, being added to it. He was the starting cornerback opposite Daryl Green in that game. He was the starting cornerback opposite Dion Sanders in college at Florida State. Martin Mayhew was a guy that played with two of the all-time greats at the position, once in college, once in the pros. But that team to me was just such a special team. God, it was dominant.

They shut out three teams in their first five games. Their defense was so good. Their offense ripping through the best deep ball in the game. He had a phenomenal year for the time. It's funny, it was 28 touchdowns, 11 interceptions. His completion percentage was only 59.1 percent, and he only threw for 3,564 yards. But Washington was very much a balanced team, too. You know, Ernest Biner went over 1,000 yards at the year.

Ricky Irvin's had 700. Gerald Riggs had 300 yards rushing. It was just such a great team with great skill position players and Monk and Sanders and Clark and unsung heroes on defense like, you know, Brad Edwards who played safety. He was the free agent that's, you know, Plan B free agency acquisition. Fred Stokes, Jumpy Gathers. He was an incredible pass rusher. They were just.

Tim Johnson, Eric Williams. Tim Johnson, Eric Williams. Wilbur Marshall was on that team and was really good. Andre Collins was really good on that team. Monty Coleman was, you know, getting towards the end of his career, but he was super effective. Kurt Govea was, you know, Richie Pettabone said one of the smartest players that played for him. They still had Charles Mann on that defense. They had Danny Copeland on that defense number 26.

Brian Mitchell was a kick returner on that team. Had two touchdowns on punt returns that year, including in the opener against Detroit. Dominant, dominant team with memorable games, the giant game during the game during that year when they played the defending champion Giants. Washington was 7 and 0. They were down 13. Nothing at halftime. One in the Meadowlands, 17, 13. The Dallas game that they lost probably prevented the perfect season. And then the seat cushion game against the Falcons and the playoffs, then they blew out the lions and blew out the bills 29 years ago. Seems like yesterday. It was cold all week. I do remember that. It was like in the single digits most of the

week and snowed constantly. But it was a great time. Minneapolis did it right. Two days later, I started working at the Washington Times. Wow. Covered sports. And since then, they've never been the same, the football team. No, they haven't. Anyway, all right, you wrote a column. I did want to get your thoughts on Hank Aaron. And as a, you know, as a Hall of Fame voter, you wrote a column. which I want you to get to.

But overall, and I had Richard Justice on the show yesterday. He wrote a really good column, Tommy, on Martin Mayhew. I don't know if you saw it. Yeah, I read that. It was very good. Yeah. Anyway, tell me about Hank Aaron and what he meant to baseball, what he meant to sports, what he meant to culture.

Well, I mean, I referred to him as a head of state in my column, and he kind of was like that. You know, he was treated like a head of state. I always use this term baseball royalty. Well, Hank was right at the top. A lot of people will argue that Willie Mays is perhaps the greatest ballplayer of all time. But Hank Aaron got the numbers to back him up. He still owns three or four major league career records long after he's since retired.

But it wasn't just the way he played, but how he carried himself. every encounter that everybody I know has ever had with Hank Aaron came away saying what a gracious, polite, and intelligent guy he was to deal with. I interviewed him a couple of times at World Series because, you know, they instituted this Hank Aaron Award for the best offensive player in the American International League. And he was always great to talk to. And, you know, he knew that people, you know, like, melted around Hank Aaron.

Like, they felt intimidated being around Hank Aaron because he was the guy who passed Babe Ruth. You know, I mean, and all generation grew up watching that home run that Al Downing gave up to him to pass Ruth. And he never came across in any dealings like a guy who had that kind of power over people. You know, the great thing about Hank Aaron is he was a Cleveland Brown fan. He was a Brown fan because he loved the Browns early on because they signed so many black players. Right. Early in their development. Was he friendly with Jim Brown and Bobby Mitchell and then from that era, Bill Russell and Muhammad Ali?

Was he friendly with all those guys? Was he a part of that group? I'm not sure he was. Okay. I'm not sure he was but the story about the Browns is Ernie of course he told his tells his story when he was working for the Browns

he saw him at a training camp once and went over and talked to him and it turns out when he could he would fly home fly to Cleveland to watch Browns games and he'd buy a ticket and he would sit in the dog pound

and Ernie of course he said to him you know Hank we could do a lot better than that We can get you a lot better thing. He said, no, that's where I want to be. So he would quietly come and watch Brown's games. But that's who he was. Right. You know, he was Hank Aaron, and he just, he just,

and to stand next to him and to see, like, he wasn't this giant of a guy. He was average at best, you know, and you'd say, how did this guy hit 755 home runs, these great risks that he had? these powerful risk. He was just, he was baseball, the epitome of baseball royalty. And my column, and my column, get to your column. You don't want, two days, two days, three days after he passes away, the baseball hall fame voters, which will be announced tonight,

will be, you know, they'll be announcing the results of their voting, which took place before December 31st. But I thought how shameful it would be if they happen to, vote Barry Bonds in to the Hall of Fame on the heels of the death of Hank Aaron. It would seem such an insult in so many ways because, look, Aaron had no use for bonds. He knew he was a cheater. You know, like Frank did, Robinson did, and all the other guys from that generation. They had no use for bonds.

They didn't want to be anywhere near them. And there's a slight chance because it's such a weak Hall Fame ballot that Hank, that Bob Barrier, bonds will get into Cooperstown this time. And that would really make it one of most repugnant years that I can remember for a Hall Fame induction ceremony. For one thing, the Hall of Fame lost so many guys in the past 13 months. Yeah, you went through the list. God, and it does seem like every few days, like a famous all-time athlete has passed away

because, you know, Tommy, we never talked about LaSorda. Don Sutton passed away recently. You know, you're all-time favorite. Seven guys passed away last year. You had LaSota and Sutton passed away in the beginning of 2021. Right. I mean, and the guys like Joe Morgan. Joe Morgan was part of the conscience of the Hall of Fame.

He's the guy who wrote the letter a couple years ago to baseball writers, urging them not to vote for these steroid guys. And he was speaking for the membership. They don't want Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens on that state. And because it's a weak ballot with no obvious candidates, this represents their best chance possibly to get in. If they don't get in this year, they got one more year after this. They weren't close last year of the year before, were they?

Bonds and Clemens? High 50, 57, 58%, maybe 61%, you need 75%, percent to get in. But, I mean, you know, I mean, two years ago, Derek Jeter was on the ballot. Right. I mean, there's no Derek Jeter on the ballot this time around. I'm a generous Hall fame voter. I voted for only three guys. Who were the guys? Guys who I voted for before. I voted for Omar Viscal, who's the greatest shortstop I've ever seen

play. I voted for Billy Wagner because now that the door has been pretty much wide open on closers getting in Hall fame, Billy Wagner's at one of the most dominant closers I've ever seen. And I voted for Jeff Kent, because he may be the top two or three power hitting second basement of all time. He drove in 100 runs eight times in his career. He has like over 1,500 RBI for a second baseman that's unheard of. Right. So those are the three guys I voted for. I didn't vote for any of the guys who have been linked to steroids, not guys who I suspected these steroids. I draw the line like bonds is an admitted steroid use. He admitted it in grand jury testimony.

Clemens is named in the Mitchell Report, which I consider it to be far more credible than Roger Clemens' claims that he didn't. Sosa was on a 2003 failed list, drug test list at the New York Times published. Manny Ramirez failed multiple drug tests. So I didn't vote for anybody who I sat there and said, well, he looks like he used steroids. I didn't do that. I voted for guys who, based on the evidence, circumstantial evidence available, that I know use steroids, which is real, it's not that hard, you know? But, I mean, people say, well, everybody used them.

I say, well, I don't know about everybody else. Yeah. I know about these guys. I mean, I think that's a reasonable approach. Like, it's, you know, these are the ones I absolutely definitive. Everybody knows did. Everybody else is rumored to have. But a lot of that evidence is circumstantial.

So without a conviction, you're still going to potentially vote for them. Real quickly on Visckel, Wagner, and Kent, will any one of the three get in if this is a week year? No, not this year or any year. Their votes just don't come close to really getting the 75%. It's hard to get in the hall fame. So predict, will bonds or Clemens get in? I think they're both going to just fall short. I mean, I think there's about 40% of the voting has been made public right now,

and they're like 73 and 72%. But usually when the ballots of people who don't reveal theirs come in, they're usually anti-Bonds or anti-Cleman's voters. Let me just point out one thing. I didn't vote for Kurt Schilling either, and it has nothing to do with steroids. He's on the ballot? He's on the ballot, and he may get in. Well, I mean, his numbers certainly would say he's a Hall of Famer, wouldn't they?

Well, his postseason numbers to work for what would get him in. Yeah. But you know what? I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to lower myself to vote for such a piece of garbage. I'm just not going to do it. I didn't think I'd have to. People say, well, you're talking about it's politics.

I mean, we could get into a real long discussion about this, but I'm just going to tell you how I feel. We're not talking about politics. Okay, what we went through the last four years, that's not politics. I've seen politics, and that's not it. What Kurtzowing talks about is not politics. It's basic humanity. You're either on one side or the other,

and I'm not voting for a guy who's on the wrong side of humanity. I don't care what he's done. Of humanity. Well, also, didn't he say, swindle, a bunch of people with some of these businesses that he was in? Yeah, he flew $75 million, like, state loan he got for some kind of game company that he ran into the ground. I'll tell you what, yeah.

Do you think that bloody sock was really bloody or not? I do. I give him credit for that. I'm kidding. So I didn't vote for Kurt Schilling. People say, well, you're letting your political viewpoints get into it, and I would say to that's not politics. You know, joking about hanging journalists a couple years ago

after you saw what happened to people who were attacked on Capitol Hill, that's not so funny. So Schilling's probably not going to be a guest at your Super Bowl party in a few weeks. All right, we are done for the day. That's it. Back tomorrow to discuss the 20-year anniversary of one, of personally for me, one of the most difficult losses I've ever had to sit through of one of my favorite teams. That and a lot more. I'm sure we will have more football to talk about

as well. Have a great day, everybody. Thanks, Tommy.