The Kevin Sheehan Show - Is Monday Night A Code Red Game?

Episode Date: September 18, 2019

Kevin opens with a discussion about Daniel Jones taking over in New York which led to him making the case that Eli Manning is worthy of the Hall of Fame. Ben Standig/The Athletic joined the show to talk about whether or not the Redskins game on Monday night against the Bears is a "Code Red" game. They also talked about one of the worst defensive starts to a season for any team in NFL history. Kevin finished up with some Nats and the latest on Rick Pitino. <p> </p><p>Learn more about your ad choices. Visit <a href="https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices">podcastchoices.com/adchoices</a></p> Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You want it. You need it. It's what everyone's talking about. The Kevin Sheehan Show. Now here's Kevin. All right. I'm here. Aaron's here. We'll talk to Ben Standing from the athletic who covers the skins in a few minutes. A couple of things to get to here initially. First of all, the conversation that Tommy and I had yesterday about the hypothetical question, would you take a new change of name? Would you take a new name if it meant getting a a new owner. I can tell you, other than the day after games, Aaron, Redskin games in particular, I don't know that I've gotten that much on Twitter for a discussion, which sort of just came about, you know, spontaneously or organically. It was not, it was not planned at all. I ended up doing it on the radio this morning as well. We could have taken calls for the entire show on it. It's funny because I would say after the podcast yesterday, roughly 80% of you absolutely would at this point, you know, take a name change for a different owner. The radio show this morning after that, I felt like it was, you know, probably like 60% of you would have, would make the exchange team name for new team owner.

Bottom line is, it's a hypothetical people. Stop taking it so seriously. I had so many tweets, Aaron, well, this is ridiculous. Dan Snyder's not selling the team. Or this is ridiculous. The best part about Dan Snyder is he hasn't allowed the team name to be changed. That's not what we were doing. We're doing a sports conversation in a bar, drinking, you know, a beer or 10, and having ridiculous hypothetical conversations. That's all it was. But a lot of you got a kick out of it, and a lot of you got it. And I was surprised at how many of you absolutely wouldn't think twice. Like I had a lot of people who you guys know text me or tweet me and say, you know, there's no doubt I would do this.

It's not even a debate. Steve Sands, who's a lifetime, long, you know, standing, Washingtonian Redskin fans said not even a thought anymore. I love the brand. I love everything associated with the brand. I like winning more. And a lot of others did as well. Anyway, that was the conversation yesterday. What happened late in the show yesterday is that Daniel Jones became the starter in New York.

And I wanted to just mention a couple of things real quickly about Jones taking over as a top half of the league draft choice at the quarterback position. I went back and I knew a lot of these. numbers anyway, but I went back just to get precisely how many of the top half of the first round quarterbacks over the last 10 years played early in their careers, early in their rookie seasons. Over the last 10 drafts, 24 quarterbacks have been taken in the first half of the first round, right? Top 16 overall. Of those 24, 20 of the 24 have started their first game no later than week five of their rookie season. Daniel Jones by week three this year, 19 others got their first start by no later than week five. In fact, many of those actually got their starts either in

week one or week two. The quarterbacks that didn't start or haven't started by week five, we all know the Patrick Mahomes story. He sat out that entire year. Alex Smith and the chief started out, what, six and oh, five and oh, six and oh, and he never got the opportunity in his rookie season. Jake Locker never started a game, and he didn't start his first game until after week five, nor did Christian ponder. Dwayne Haskins, as of now, has not started before week five. That could change. All right, that could change. Remember the response we got from him yesterday. Sheesh when the Daniel Jones news came out. Sheesh, by the way, defined, I looked this up in the dictionary, is an exclamation used to express disbelief or exasperation, just so everybody is on the same page, he is in disbelief that

Daniel Jones is starting before he is. Or exasperation. Or he's just exasperated. Which I think around these parts could be a better term. Yeah, it might be because we're all exasperated around these parts. Anyway, I did want to mention, so getting back to the statistics, Haskins could start by week five. More likely than not, I would say he's not going to. That's my guess at this point. But as for now, I mean, I think the odds are stacked against him starting for week five. I predicted that he would.

I predicted that he might play in week one. Remember that? That did not work out. But I think Keenham has been far from the reason the Redskins are 0.2. He's been better than expected. By the way, I don't know if any of you read Sally Jenkins this morning in the post. I think I read it late last night online.

She got completely carried away in her column about Case Keenham this morning. I've been impressed with Case Keenham, too. I mean, I had low expectations, and he's exceeded those expectations. He is far from the reason that they are 0 and 2. But if you missed what she wrote, I'll just read a little bit of it, because it is exaggeration. It is hyperbole at its best. She writes this morning Case Keenum,

And by the way, everybody knows this. I love Sally. Love reading her. Like her personally. I think she is brilliant and so smart and interesting. And I don't agree with her half the time, at least half the time. But she wrote this morning, Case Keenham gives the Redskins something they haven't had in a long time.

Trust. The chronic weirdness and deformities in the organization have kept them in such murky mediocrity for so long that it's often hard to know what you're looking at and who's responsible for it. But Keenham's play has been so clean and sound that he has answered at least one question. There's no blaming the quarterback this time. I don't disagree with that at all.

Here's where it gets too much. She writes, It's probably time to stop calling Keenham a journeyman. Journeyman don't throw for 601 yards and five touchdowns and no interceptions against the Cowboys and Eagles to keep their team competitive with no help from the running game and a patently magnanimous defense. They don't sling the ball from every arm position in all kinds of ducking on the run

emergencies and still connect on 69% of their passes like this cowboy does. She continues, The one-in-one Minnesota Vikings and 0-2 Denver Broncos may wish they had such a journeyman, just so everybody knows, Denver did last year, and they went six and ten. One who was performing, she writes, like a top 10 quarterback, even as a, as his team falls to O and 2. Keenham is so good. Keenham's play is so good, Sally writes, in fact,

that it has shifted the spotlight elsewhere, squarely on to imperiled coach Jay Gruden and the untrustworthy front office with its long history of sabotaging its own team. He is, right now, 10th in QBR. He's not a top 10 quarterback people. And by the way, those interceptions he's clean on, he's had at least three balls that should have been picked.

He's been inaccurate at times. He's missed two deep shots that could have changed the two games, the deep shot to McLoran in the second half in Philadelphia, and the missed Paul Richardson wide open against busted coverage on that third and three down 2414 in the third quarter. With that said, he's been better than a lot of us were expecting, not top 10, you know, but better. He's been fine.

in both games. And as she wrote, he's down the list, way down the list as to why they are oh and two. I don't disagree with that. In fact, I think as Sally does, that he's one of the reasons they've had a chance in both games. And when I say chance, by the way, some of you have said to me, they didn't really have a chance in either game, dude. They scored late touchdowns for a backdoor cover and to cut a 3114 lead to 312. They were up 17 nothing in the first game. By definition, They had a chance to win that game when you're up 17-0. When you're up 20 to 7 at halftime, you have a chance to win the game. In fact, the probability at that point is you are going to win the game.

They were up 7-0 on Sunday. They were only down one score midway through the third quarter. I didn't think watching that game that they were going to win that game, but they had chances. But when she writes his play is so good, he's performing like a top 10 quarter, that's just, that's gotten carried away, no matter what the stats say. Back to the main topic. Daniel Jones replacing Eli Manning and Jones becoming the 20th of 24, top half of the draft

quarterbacks over the last 10 years to get their first start by week five of their rookie year. Haskins could be the 21st. Some of you want it. I've pushed for it. I predicted it. I think the odds are stacked against it now. But the numbers and names I gave you are really a reflection. of one thing in particular.

For the last decade now, quarterbacks taken in the top half of the first round pretty much play right away. The three that didn't, locker and ponder, we're never good and are out of the league now. And the third being Mahomes, we know his situation, which is very unique not only in the last 10 years, but in the last 18 years, I'm sorry, 16 years.

Because really the only other example of sitting out a full season and becoming great is Aaron Rogers, he was behind a Hall of Famer. Now, the fourth on this list could be Haskins if he starts by week five. I mean, if he doesn't start by week five. And hopefully if he gets past week five without a start, it doesn't mean that he's going to turn into locker and ponder. It means he's going to turn in to Mahomes. Back to Daniel Jones for a minute.

He got rave reviews going back to minicamp. He played for the Manning mentor, David Cutcliff at Duke. He was a multi-year starter. Big difference from he and Dwayne Haskins. And he was ready to call plays in an NFL huddle, take some snaps under center. He was just more comfortable coming in. We know from the reporting, by the way, that there were people in the Redskins organization and other NFL organizations who really liked Jones, despite what media and fans thought.

Dave Gettelman, you know, the GM in New York, took an absolute pounding by fans and media. and by the way, Landon Collins, one of his former players, who has said multiple times that the Giants screwed up by not taking Jones instead of Haskins. You know, Haskins, of course, said the league done messed up

by taking Jones before him. In the Jones versus Haskins conversation, Aaron, the only thing we know for now is that Jones was ready sooner. That's all we know. Obviously, we do not know today if this will turn out to be a predictor of things to come.

Jones was ready for an NFL start sooner than Haskins was, is all we can say for now. And what would be interesting is if for whatever reason the Redskins get pounded by Chicago on Monday night and Keenham doesn't play well, or if he gets hurt.

If the skins chose to give Haskins his first start against the Giants, it would be an interesting dynamic. It would be Snyder's pick against Gettelman's pick. It would also be the guy, that Gruden liked in Jones from what we understand, and certainly Gruden may not have been the only one in the organization,

versus the guy the owner picked. There would be so many side stories with that one if it were to happen. I don't think it will, though. Anyway, as far as Eli goes, is his next step another NFL team? I don't think so. maybe he could get traded to, I don't know if Jacksonville's got enough cap room. I don't know that Pittsburgh wants Eli there. I think they like Mason Rudolph. I think his next stop is going to be Canton. And I want to talk about that for a brief moment,

because I think Eli Manning will absolutely end up in the Hall of Fame. I mean, he is a Manning. All right, that's NFL royalty. And he has that thing that people always use as the differentiator, and that is two Super Bowls. He's got two Super Bowl rings. Do I think he deserves to be in the Hall of Fame? I do. Barely, you know, when I respect the argument against him, it's close in my mind,

but I think he does deserve the Hall of Fame. And let me explain why. First of all, the argument against Eli is, it's a compelling argument. He's a 500 all-time quarterback as a starter. He's never been voted in all pro. He's been to four Pro Bowls. His teams have made the playoffs in less than half of his seasons,

six of the 14 seasons he's been in the league. He never led the league in completions, passing yards, or touchdowns. He has led the league in interceptions three times. And he's 44th all time in passer rating. All right? You can make the case that Eli, especially as a regular season quarterback,

just an average quarterback. But without using the typical, and by the way, I think very rational argument that others use all the time, which is already in the Hall of Fame are guys like dot, dot, dot, you know, in this case, you would say Joe Namath is in the Hall of Fame. Joe Namath is in the Hall of Fame for a lot of reasons that have nothing to do with his actual statistical performance over the course of his career. He threw more interceptions than touchdowns, lost more games than he won, et cetera. Bob Greasy. thing. You look at his numbers. Is he a Hall of Fame? I don't know. He's in there. So you can use those, you know, comparables and say, well, Eli had a better career than Bob Greasy. I'm not going to

use that as my basis for thinking that he deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. I'm going to use the following. First of all, Eli is seventh all time in passing yards and eighth all time in passing touchdowns. And I get it about this era and the numbers being inflated. But still, if he didn't make the Hall of Fame? He'd be the only quarterback in the top 10 passing yardage in history not to be a Hall of Famer. Right now, here's your top 10, Aaron, in all-time passing yards. Breeze, Peyton, Farve, Brady, Marino, Rothesberger, Eli, Rivers, Elway, Moon. All right? Farv, Marino, Elway, and Moon are already in the Hall of Fame. Breeze, Peyton, Manning, Tom Brady, Ben Rothelisberger, and yes, Philip Rivers are all going to be in the Hall of Fame.

Now, Matt Ryan is pushing up against that top 10 in passing yards, and he's not a Hall of Famer at this point. Maybe he will be. He's got a lot of career left. But Eli right now is the only guy. If you said he's not in the Hall of Fame, he'd be the only guy in the Top 10 passing yardage all time, not in the Hall of Fame. I'd also say this about Eli Manning, and I think this may surprise a lot of you. Eli Manning is ninth all-time in fourth quarter or overtime game-winning drives. One behind Johnny Unitas and two behind John Elway. Ninth all-time in game-winning drives. He has been a clutch quarterback.

You know, we know about the two Super Bowls, and I'm going to get to those runs in a moment. Jim Plunkett, you know, won two Super Bowls, and he's not in the Hall of Fame. Eli's postseason runs, though, were different than Jim Plunkett's postseason runs. Eli's two Super Bowl postseason runs were excellent, high-level stuff. Eight total playoff games in 2007 and 2011 as a wildcard team, Super Bowl champion. He completed 63% of his passes in those eight games over those two seasons in the playoffs, through for nearly 2100 yards, through 15 touchdowns in just two interceptions. He was clutch, and he was clutch on the road when it mattered most.

You know, in 2007, he led the game-winning drive to beat the Cowboys, who were the number one seed in Dallas. That was the game, by the way, where Tony Romo threw an interception at the end of the game to R.W. McCorders. That was one of the Tony Romo meltdown bad finishes. By the way, I think about that game, and I think, what if Romo had connected and the Giants had been eliminated, then we would not be having this conversation. Because Eli Manning is a one Super Bowl winning quarterback is not a Hall of Famer.

It's the two that make them a Hall of Famer because of who they beat. And I'll get to that in a moment. But they beat the Cowboys. He had driven the Giants to the lead in the fourth quarter. That 2007 Giant Run also included that frigid, memorable game at Lambo against Brett Farve's Packers, a game that the Giants won in overtime on a Lawrence Tine's field goal after Fav threw a pick in OT. What's remembered about that game is the Farr of interception in overtime.

What's forgotten about that game is that Eli Manning led two fourth quarter drives at Lambo in frigid sub-zero temperatures in the fourth quarter. but the kicker Lawrence Tynes missed both field goal attempts to give them late leads in the fourth quarter. Two clutch Eli-led drives, but the kicker just missed, but they ended up winning that game anyway. And then, of course, you get to the Super Bowl and the two touchdowns in the fourth quarter to beat the Patriots, including the Plaxico Burris touchdown winner with less than a minute to go right after he had made that incredible throw to David Tyree on the game-winning drive. let me say, the impossible escape and then the throw and the great catch by David Tyree. The 2007 run included three road wins before the Super Bowl.

Then you go to 2011. Very good was Eli Manning. Nine touchdowns, one interception. Two more road wins, including the win in San Francisco in the NFC title game, where he led a fourth quarter drive to give the Giants a 1714 lead. They won that game in overtime, he gave them the lead in the fourth quarter. And then came the game-winning touchdown drive in the Super Bowl against the Patriots, where he was brilliant in that game, 30 of 40 in that game, no interceptions,

and the throw to Manningham on the sideline, remember that on that final drive? Clutch game-winning drives to cap off two Super Bowls against Bill Belichick and the Patriots. You know, it's true that he was 0-4 in his other playoff seasons and didn't play well, but two Super Bowls as a wildcard team with five combined road playoff wins, two Super Bowl wins over an iconic all-time team for the ages, the New England Patriots, his role in leading one clutch drive after another in those post seasons, to me that gets weighted very heavily in this discussion. I've heard people say, Tommy has said it many times,

that the definition of a Hall of Famer is that you can't talk about the sport without including that person's name. In recent years, recent classes have included people like Kevin Mawai and Kevin Green and Curtis Martin. I'm sorry. Eli Manning is a conversation that trumps all of those. It's really difficult to talk about the league's history without talking about those two Super Bowl wins over the Patriots, especially the 2007 win over a team that was 18 and O. And his role in that.

he is going to be a Hall of Famer. I don't think there's any doubt that it's going to happen. I believe he deserves to be a Hall of Famer. It's not an easy, you know, slam dunk for me. It's close. I respect the arguments against it. But for me, if I had a vote, I would vote yes. What do you think?

You know, it's tough. The kind of story around it does. I'm very much a statistical person. was this guy one of the best? For me, the thing that really I don't like it for Eli is that at no point in his career was he a top five quarterback.

You might be able to argue a year or two here, but overall, he was never one of the top quarterbacks of his generation. And for me, when you're talking about the Hall of Fame, you're talking about the best players of all time, well, if you weren't one of the best quarterbacks of your generation, it's hard to argue you were one of the best quarterbacks of all time.

When yes, you can take in the Super Bowls, and yes, those are important, But if you're arguing postseason success for me, like Joe Flacco was a better postseason quarterback than Eli Manning. Are we going to argue that Joe Flacco is a Hall of Fame quarterback? I don't think you're going to find a lot of people to say that. But if you're arguing that Eli gets in because of his postseason success, Joe Flacco has to be considered as well.

So for me, I think it's a little bit of a mood argument because he is going in when it gets to the committee. They are going to put him in the large part because of his name and large part because they do value Super Bowls that highly. If I had a vote, though, I don't think I would vote for him. You know, your argument that he was never a top five quarterback, there were a couple of seasons, and I'm going to, I'd have to really go through him. There were a couple of seasons there where I considered Eli to be maybe not top five,

but certainly in that next couple after the top five. Remember, we've lived through an era of some of the all-time greats. And in the Flacco comparison, Eli was a better question. quarterback than Joe Flack. He was a better quarterback, but if we're putting him in because of his postseason accomplishments, Joe Flacco was a better postseason quarterback. The difference is, is Eli had two truly memorable, iconic, brilliant runs to two Super Bowls. Joe has been very good in multiple playoff seasons, winning many road playoff games where he's played very well. And then of course 2012, you know, I always love when people say, oh, the Ravens' defense.

was excellent. No, it actually wasn't. The Giants defense was excellent in those years as well. It was, but they needed Eli to lead these drives when they were behind. The 2012 Ravens, Flacco in that offense, Flacco, it was 11 touchdowns up, no interceptions in games like the game in Denver that went to overtime and they won 3835. They don't win if he doesn't make that throw. Yeah, they beat the Niners in the Super Bowl 34, 31. So these were not great Ravens defensive teams.

they had some great players, obviously, with Ray, Ray and Reed and some of the others. But, you know, in thinking about Flacco, Flacco had more playoff seasons with big wins on the road where he played well. In fact, I think Flacco still is the all-time road playoff leader in terms of leading road playoff wins. And I think Eli's up there. Eli might be second behind, I think, Stawback or Marino maybe. I forget. That would be actually, if you can look that up, that'd be interesting. Because I think Flacco is one, but I think Eli's right there.

Yes, Eli is right. Actually, these are just current quarterbacks. But yes, Eli's right there. I believe Eli has five. Eli's got five. Flacco has seven. He's got seven. There's somebody in between there.

It might be Stawback or it might be Marino, actually. And I know Miami only went to one Super Bowl, but they won, I think it might be Stauback, because I think Landry has more, Landry and Shula both have the most, and Gibbs both have the most road playoff wins of coaches. All right, a quick word about my bookie, and then we'll bring on Ben Standing to talk some skins here. At the end of a hard week, it's great to sit down, take some time off, and watch some football. Game winning touchdowns, two-minute drives, running flying down sidelines, receivers, catching ball. There's nothing more exciting, truly, than football season.

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All right, let's bring in Ben Standing, who, of course, covers the skins for the athletic. I asked this question on the radio show earlier today. Do you consider this game to be the J. Gruden-Code Red game? Not that his job, that he'll lose his job if they lose to the Bears, but that the season potentially could be lost on Monday night if they don't win? Yeah. I mean, it sounds insane, but just looking at the reality of the situation, You know, you don't win this game.

You know, you have to go on the road, regardless of the fact that it needs to week four is Daniel Jones second start. Who knows? It's not like the Redskins have shown to be definitely better than the Giants. And it's on the road. You never know. Then it's New England. And granted, week six is Miami. But, like, you know, potentially you're staring at 0 and 5.

And so, but on the flip side, you win this game, which, you know, look, the Bears' offense has been anemic. Their defense is really good. But their offense has not been all that. You know, you win this game, you do go beat the Giants. Even if you lose to New England, I think everybody has taken a two-and-three start based on havings gone and just the reality of the schedule. So, yeah, to go 0-and-3, especially with two games at home against conference teams, it changes the perception of the season.

It's not the season is over because we see teams come back. But, yes, I would agree. I think they've kind of, or not saying you were saying this, but I kind of think they do need to win this game as crazy as it is only being three weeks of the year. Yeah, I agree with that. And by the way, I don't think that if they win the code red game, that they're going to be a playoff team by any stretch of the imagination. But what it will do is it'll keep the season and play probably through week six or week seven because they would actually have a chance.

They'd be an underdog in New York more likely than not against the Giants, I would think, depending on what the Giants do against the Buccaneers. but they'd have a chance to get to three and three, which, my God, if you're sitting there three and three after the Miami game with the 49ers coming to town, that would be a completely different sort of viewpoint of the season moving forward than if you are one in five after the Miami game, which is definitely in play if they lose Monday night. You're out there every day, you're talking to a lot of people. how shocked are they at just how bad they've been defensively? I think they're pretty surprised. I mean, obviously, I think it's important to note that the injuries,

you know, John Allen and the corners in particular, but yeah, I think they're pretty surprised that they've been getting run over like this. I mean, you know, it's not just that the two, you know, they're giving up 31.5 points a game. I mean, Dallas scored on their last five full possessions. There was no stopping them. I mean, even not having those guys available, that's not acceptable. That's not what anybody was thinking.

I mean, it's totally how all of our perceptions from a few weeks ago were so radically different. All our thoughts were the left side of the offensive line is going to be a mess. That's going to take down the offense while the defense hopefully keeps them in games where they can maybe win 17, 16. And it's been the opposite. The left side of the line's been good. Other parts of the offense have been shakier, but the defense overall is completely letting them down to this point, and that's why effectively, you know, it's a team sport and all that,

but that's effectively why they've lost these first two games. So, yeah, it's wild how perceptions can change so quickly. You know, it's not to say that this defense can't turn things around, but yes, I think they're surprised for sure with where they're at right now. I mean, we really should, I feel like this happens a lot, and it's not necessarily just with this team, but it's with a lot of teams each year. We really should remind each other every year in August to just not declare anything. I try to keep myself from declaring anything because every year my position in the preseason is the same and that is we're going to learn hardly anything that's translatable to the regular season. But, you know, not only did you think the

left side of the offensive line was going to be problematic. You weren't sure about whether or not they actually had a receiver who could get open or a quarterback that could throw it to them. and we were absolutely convinced that if it were healthy and it wasn't healthy on Sunday, that the defense was going to be the obvious strength of this team. And it could still work out that way, Ben. You know, we're only two weeks into this, but the numbers defensively are just alarming. They're 32nd dead last in yards allowed per drive.

They're allowing 47 and a half yards per drive. Their 32nd dead last in the league and plays allowed per drive, and it's not even close. averaging 7.61 plays per drive. They're dead last in time of possession allowed per drive. Dead last in third down defense. They're allowing a 64.3% conversion rate. They're 31st in the league. Only one team's worse in points allowed per drive. This defense through the first two games is the worst in the league. And to be honest, it's not even close. It would be one thing if it wasn't as good as we thought through two weeks, but it is stunningly awful.

Yeah, no, for sure. The third down, something I looked up at Park because it was interesting to me, and also Jay Gruden mentioned it the other day as probably the main issue. You mentioned the percentage. Not only that, the worst in the league right now, okay, I find it's two weeks a small sample size, but to expand that sample size, according to pro football reference, it's the third worst third down percentage historically after two games since they've tracked the stat since 1991.

So even if it's a short sample size for this season, historically it is horrendous. So, yeah, I mean, and look, I don't know if there's any, it's easy to say pass rush, pass rush, but I think that on some level was what we all kind of, like what we all thought was going to be the strength between Kerrigan, you had Montes-S sweat, the front, you know, the defensive line with Allen and Ionitis in particular, you know, that this was. be these guys were beginning at the quarterback, and that would force the quarterbacks to throw the ball out early. You got Norman, Elaine and Collins, Jimmy Morland, so on and so on,

and good things are going to happen. And instead, no pass rush. The quarterbacks have been barely touched, and, you know, we're kind of seeing what's happening. And then, like, even in terms of the quarterbacks, I mean, let's just remember realize this. In week two, week two, the three best quarterbacks they had were Josh Norman, who was off to a slow start to say the least,

a seventh round pick who played a James Madison last year, and a guy who retired last season. Those are their three best quarterbacks on Sunday, at least going into the game. So the injuries are a factor, but they've got to figure out a way to get more heat on the quarterback, especially if that's going to be the secondary they have on Monday night. That third down historical note, I didn't know.

That's the third worst through two weeks in the history of keeping that stat. I know 2016, the Redskins had the worst. worst third and seven or longer defense since the merger, which, you know, pretty much told the tale on 2016 and why they went, you know, eight, seven, and one with an offense that really was very good, you know, with a, with a, just a bad defense in 2016, they probably would have won 10 games. We're talking to Ben Standing from the athletic. Do you have a sense as to whether or not people out there think that the defense is poorly coached? So it's interesting.

Twice now, after the games, in his first comments, Jay Gruden has made some points to we're not communicating well enough with the players. Yes, he has. After the Philly game, he obviously, we know he's more offense to defense, but he almost kind of made it sound like them and us, like the offense, needs more help from the defense as if it was like a separate thing. But then the next day, when we get him again, he sort of pulls back. And on this Monday, when somebody brought up his comment about the communication, he said,

oh, no, no, no, I think we're doing okay. So I think there's the emotional Gruden and then there's the, well, let me, let me calm down Gruden. And so I says, you know, the truth for him in particular is probably somewhere in between, but that first emotional burst seems to be, hey, what are we doing, fellas? This is not, this is not working. So, you know, I don't know. We talk about so many new pieces on defense,

so many new guys and workies as well. That's obviously part of it. But on paper, the defensive should be a better situation when you have the veterans that you have over there. On the other hand, Rob Ryan, as interesting as he is, as funny as he is, I'm sure he's a great coach. He's only been, you know, he wasn't in football for a bit. Ray Horton's sort of the same to some degree.

So, you know, I'm not saying they don't have good coaches, but I think it's fair to wonder, is this more scheme than not. I mean, look, I mean, Cole Holcomb has been pretty good, right? A fifth-round pick. He showed a lot. I mean, Jimmy Moreland, all things considered, I think, has done a pretty good job. DeRine also, three players that I think actually have been impressive at times.

Right. So it's not like they're not getting, and so you have, especially with the work, you have to give this, you know, logically some level of credit to the coaching staff for getting these guys in positions to do it. And yet somehow it's overall not working. So, yeah, we'll see. I'll give it time so they sort of get all their pieces. is back, but we'll see.

I think that Monday night is big for Greg Minusky, because the Bears have not been able to score in their first two games. Now, they've played two very good defensive teams in Green Bay that, you know, added to their defense and free agency, and it seems to be working out, and Denver, but if they come in here and they go up and down the field for five, six drives without being stopped, and they can't get the Bears off the field, and the Bears, score 27, 30, you know, 34 points. I can't imagine that he survives Tuesday.

It's a great point. I mean, look, if they lose that game, even if it's just, you know, we know how this game sort of works, not just for football, but in life and travel and things aren't working, you sometimes have to make a change for the sake of change. And if you're Jay Gruden, you know, if you're feeling the heat, you may have to make that call. I don't think of Jay typically is the guy who's a overreaction. Let me just make a move.

But, yeah, I mean, you do have to wonder about that. And obviously, they do have a lot of veteran guys on that defense who had that coordinator experience or what have you. But, yeah, it'll be interesting to see for sure. By the way, to your point earlier about how we have to maybe dial back perceptions early on, I mean, one thing we all probably overrated was we were assuming this would happen. They actually hadn't done it yet. No matter how good the defensive line is, we're projecting that everything will fall into place. and that's on like sort of on all of us that were you know it wasn't just like hey this has been a good defense

no we think they're going to be good and we sort of I'm probably this I'm sure too sort of ran with it a bit much especially when we're saying well the offense will be good but at least the defense will be good to great yeah well I mean I pointed out all summer long it wasn't very well coached last year that was a concern going in it regressed at the end of last year and they got torched by the good offensive teams that they faced even when the defense was highly ranked early in the year. So, you know, but at the same time, you know, it was like, okay, Dron Payne in year two and John Allen in year three, and we love Matt Ionitis, and Montez Sweets a good pick,

and Landon Collins has been added to this defense, and, you know, talent-wise, there's a real good young talent base, but I think the coaching was obviously been a concern to the organization. They tried desperately to replace Greg Minoski in the offseason, and couldn't do it. You know what I was thinking about, too, is just I cannot wait for, I hope they win on Monday night. I really do. Just to keep the sense that this could be competitive season alive because it'll be dead if they

lose Monday night. But I can't wait to hear what Jay Gruden says about Daniel Jones leading into that giant game. Because I think we all know that some of the football people, and maybe even Jay, really liked Jones coming out of Duke. Yeah, that's for sure. And I was going to say this earlier when you were asking sort of about this is a must win. So many things could change. Dwayne Haskins could play in week four.

I don't think that's realistic. In terms of what I saw the guy do the summer, not to say he had a bad summer, just to say he, you know, coming along, whereas Daniel Jones from all of reports had a great summer. But somebody might say, hey, we need to get Haskins in there. It's not week four sooner than later because if it's losing, why not throw him in there? There could be other guys who all of a sudden get put into the lineup or have their roles changed, what have you. So there's a lot to go into it. But yes, it'll be interesting.

It's always interesting to hear a coach like Jay who's clearly an offensive-minded quarterback-thinking guy, what he thinks of other quarterbacks, and especially in this year where, you know, the Redskins drafted a guy and this other team did as well, and they had first crack, and they took a guy who, maybe you know more than I do, I don't know, but like that Jay Gruden and some of these guys liked, there were so many mixed reports you heard on Daniel Jones. Obviously, there was the massive reaction that people had, that he was a totally horrible pick when the Giants took him at six.

So obviously some people don't think he's great, but I think that's probably more perception versus reality. But, yeah, it'll be interesting to see for sure what does Gruden have to say about this kid. What do you know, if anything new on Trent Williams? why are they being so inflexible when it comes to entertaining potential teams that would, you know, think about giving up a lot for them? So based on what I've sort of heard and talking to people over the last 24 hours or so, you know, I think there's a little bit of perception versus reality disconnect that seems to be going on in the sense that, you know, I think there's this perception. Look, we've seen many reports that the Redskins have supposedly turned down offers

and they're not willing to trade Trent Williams. And that may be one thing, but I think that's different than saying that they're getting tons of great offers for first-round picks or what have you and swatting those away. The sense I'm getting is that the market is not nearly as robust as people think it is, and I think, therefore, the idea of, well, they should just trade Trent Williams infers that they have great offers. And I think the people here as well as people around the league are not necessarily as convinced that that marketplace is as good at now,

or maybe even was then as had been discussed. And I think that's part of the disconnect. I also think part of the disconnect is the Redskins don't talk. Bruce Allen has not held a formal press conference since I think the combine. And when you don't say anything, other people will. The world will move on. Other people will talk. And some of them maybe know stuff and some of them don't.

And that helps shape the conversation that we're all having. and I think that part is why there's a sense that the Redskins are just turning down good offers at a spite or for whatever the reason when the reality may not be the case, but the Redskins are not filling in any of the blanks, and therefore we're also just left to wonder what. But my sense is that the marketplace now and maybe throughout this whole process has not been what people have thought. I think I disagree with that. I don't know specifically how robust it's been, but there have been, I believe, at least, a couple of teams. Like if you're talking about robust with respect to the number of teams

vying with one another to get Trent Williams, I can't disagree with that because I don't know in total how many teams. But I think there have been at least a few that would have been willing to give up a first round pick at a very minimum. I think we look at the Houston deal for Tunsell. And you can say Tunsell's a lot younger. And maybe they even like Tunsell more. But if Tunsell weren't available, they would have been willing to give up something for Trent Williams that may not have been tonsil-like in terms of the package, but even if it were off of that, it would have still been pretty robust in terms of what they would have been willing to offer. And now you have the 49ers, you've got the Patriots again because of the win injury, you've got the Broncos.

I've thrown them into the conversation. I've heard a little bit potentially about Denver. They are really disappointed in Garrett Bowles out there. But at the same time, they're 0.2. So, you know, in terms of what they'd be willing to give up, I don't know. If they were 2 and 0, it might be different. Or if they were 1 in 1, and they should be 1 in 1 after that Chicago game, it might be a little bit different. But I would bet that they've had at least a couple of opportunities to move on from Trent for a decent price. Remember, Ben, one of the things we heard is that there wasn't really a market for Kirk Cousins. I know a couple of people in that organization that really tried to get that word out.

I know for a fact that Kyle Shanahan would have traded one of those first two, one of those two first round picks for cousins, and the Redskins wouldn't even talk to Kyle. They didn't want to have anything to do with anything Shanahan related, you know, going into that 2017 season. Yeah, I mean, I think, I mean, one thing I think to certainly consider is, you know, you and I could look at the exact same car, and one of us could say, boy, that is a great deal.

I'm buying that. The other one could be like, well, seriously? That thing is overpriced, not interested. It doesn't have enough cup holders. I'm out. So people can look at two situations and view it the same way. My sense is they have viewed it as not as whatever offers have been there, has not been as interesting.

But as I said, the sense I had was that some of the discussion has been overinflated as to what they've been facing. But even beyond that, like in terms of the, like the, recent stuff, like on New England and San Francisco and checking in with those situations to some degree. Like in both cases, the injured tackles are projected to be out like six to eight weeks. I know wind went on IR, so that's at least eight. That doesn't mean they're out for the season. So trading for Trent Williams, like the other guy is still going to come back. If you're in New England, like they're thinking about the playoffs. They're not thinking about how do we survive

the next eight weeks. So I don't know that it doesn't seem to make sense that they would do that. And in San Francisco, there's a lot of variables, including the Shanahan stuff, which is, more petty than sort of a marketplace aspect. But same thing. I mean, Joe Staley's been there for a long time. He's out six to eight weeks. He's coming back. So trading for training for Williams,

especially if it's going to be, say, a high pick. That doesn't seem to make as much sense for them. If he was out for the year, that's maybe a different story. But if he's coming back, I don't know. And I think that's sort of like the deal. Like who's out there that's making them that offer? But we'll see.

But look, if there's other factors here, right? I mean, I don't know to what degree the Redskins are letting pride. mess with their mind here. It is very conceivable that they are letting that dictate their decisions. And if that's the case, then I think this has been a big mistake on their part. At some point, you have to recognize the market and the situation and cut bait. But I guess that I don't know if I'm getting the sense of the market is what we all think it is. I know this, that in the process of, as Les Carpenter wrote, them trying to bleed Trent Williams to death and make him crawl back, they'd also love for him to think that there was

never any real market for him to sort of put him in his place, right? I mean, he's got two years left on a deal that's right now the seventh in terms of average per year deal among left tackles in the game. They think that that is right where it should be. And, you know, the problem with this is that at some point you get to the point where, like, how comfortable is it going to be if he does come back? Like, there's a lot of stuff that's happened in this standoff that is personal and emotional. And, you know, in business, you've got to rise above that. And I understand that.

But, man, it's hard when some of the things that have been said have been said during this standoff. I just don't see it as a comfortable position even when he comes back. And by the way, how many games are you going to have of them when you come back? I can tell you this. At this point, do they really want to extend him next year if he comes back and plays eight games this year? I don't know.

I totally agree I think that's sort of the point of okay so like if you're them let's say there is a legitimate marketplace even if it's like we're talking you get a second and a third right less than the first but okay whatever

you make that move because but you just said at this point it seems apparent he doesn't want to be here and this thing has gotten negative so like if you're like you have all these young players in the locker room you want all these guys carry Trent Williams compliant you're not the organization

he's going to, by the way, Trent William is a guy who talks on the regular to the media, you don't think, you don't think he's going to talk, you don't think he's going to talk to us and say whatever he wants to say if he's going to force the way out of here or think he's going to be gone anyway, you know what I mean? So the whole thing doesn't make any sense. And look, the reality is it's okay, whatever. Don't worry about winning or losing.

Just move on. And if you get a couple of picks, even if they're day two picks, whatever, you combine that with Haskins, with McLaurin, with sweat, with one of the other things you have, okay, you can move forward. It's not an end of the world, but you're going to make it worse. If you just dig in and say, screw it, we're never trading this guy no matter what out of pride. That would be, to me, a big mistake. Yeah, I agree.

One last one. Do you think Jordan Reed will play Monday night or not? No. I mean, I've been on the camp, but until I see him practice, I'm not suggesting, I don't think he's playing. I was, you know, a lot of people last week were when J.P. Holtz got cut, I think taking a leap that that meant Reed was good, and I was definitely not that guy. And I don't, you know, I reported on last Friday before we knew he was out that the optimism was dwindling, and I suspect I haven't heard anything yet to be fair this week,

so we'll see in a couple hours if he's out there. But my sense would be, my guess would be no. And until we see Jordan Reed full practice go, I'm not convinced until he's playing anytime soon, which isn't to say he couldn't play this week. saying I wouldn't bet on it. Right. Always love catching up with you. Follow Ben Standig on the athletic.

He does a great job writing for them at Ben Standing on Twitter. Ben really knows this team. I'm actually, and I've said this to you off the air, I know you did such a great job covering the Wizards and all the teams in town, but since you've been specifically on this

beat, you've done a great job. You really, you delve into things in the way that I think about them, you know, in terms of, you know, just some of the stuff that you came up with in your most recent story about some of the defensive numbers which you shared with us today and, and other things. You're doing a great job. I hope you're enjoying this beat more than the Wizards beat. Well, I definitely, I definitely appreciate that. And like, it feels like these two franchises are vying for my soul in the negative way. Who wants to take me down further?

I can't somebody just can't we have a positive story out of somewhere here. Somebody do something good. I'm cool with that. Even though he's a BCC Baron, he's still all right with me. Thanks, Ben, so much. Appreciate it. Thanks, Kevin. Appreciate it.

Great to catch up with Ben. Really do enjoy his writing and the way he's covering the team and thinking about the team. And he's out there every day. And he's getting a lot of information and he's been involved in breaking some stories. He's doing a great job. Ben's a good friend. and he's doing a phenomenal job with the athletics. So follow him at the athletic and on Twitter at Ben Standing.

Two more things real quickly to get to. First of all, the Nats needed that win, and they need another one today with Max on the Hill. They're a game and a half up on the Cubs and the Brewers. The Brewers are red-hot, even without Yelich. They've won four in a row, 11 of their last 12. I would assume the Cubs will win after losing to the Reds last night. They should come back and win that game tonight.

They're just a game and a half. You know, in front of both of them, It's three teams essentially now for the two spots. And with Scherzer on the bump today in St. Louis, this is one they got to get. I mean, it would be a huge to take two of three in St. Louis. So I'm hoping for that. And by the way, Howie Kendrick's just so clutch and so good. Like, there's something about him.

Every time in some of these bigger games, I just feel like he's going to deliver. He was three for four last night with a home run. A story this morning real quickly that I wanted to, Just touch on real quickly. Rick Petino and Louisville reached a settlement and those lawsuits stemming from him leaving the school back in October of 2017 with all the stuff that was going on. At the time, you know, if you recall, you know, when they fired Petino,

Patino started suing Louisville. He was seeking, you know, somewhere between $30 and $40 million. And the school was filing Kemp. counterclaims it was really ugly. You know, Patino went over and coached in Europe. You know, in the meantime, by the way, in the Greek league, where, by the way, at one point he complained that the smoke-filled arena was unhealthy for him and his players, because, as you know, if you've been over there, European smoke, and they smoke in the arenas,

and there are no rules against doing it. Anyway, he said the following after this lawsuit got settled today. He said, today I move on to a new chapter in my life. I'm very proud of my many accomplishments that my team's achieved at Louisville. I'm so thankful and honored to coach such dedicated athletes. I'm also very disappointed in how it ended. But as a head coach, I am held responsible for the actions of all team members. And then he said this.

He said, quote, I still have so much passion for the game and so many goals I want to achieve from this day forward. I start my climb, closed quote. If you don't think somebody's going to give Petino a chance to coach their college basketball team again, you are insane. He is going to be sought after. He's going to get a decent job here when this season ends somewhere in a decent conference to start, and within a few years it would not surprise me if Petino's coaching at the highest levels of college basketball again. He is a great coach, a enhancing, a enhancing.

been a great coach. Has he gotten into situations that were sketchy, borderline cheating? Yes, he's a great coach and somebody's going to give him a chance again. When he says today, or from this day forward, I start my climb, he's got one goal in mind, and that is getting back to the final four with whatever school gives him that opportunity. And by the way, the school that does give him that opportunity will have a chance to go to a final four. All right. thanks to Ben Standing for joining us. Thanks to Aaron for producing us. Tommy back with me tomorrow.

Have a great day.