The Kevin Sheehan Show - Is Quinn's Staff Top 5 + Logan Paulsen

Episode Date: June 18, 2025

Kevin opened reacting to Nats' GM Mike Rizzo's comments this morning on his team and its managerial situation. Kevin answered an email that suggested that Dan Quinn's staff is Top 5 in the NFL. A comparison between Jayden Daniels and John Elway was discussed and then Logan Paulsen jumped on to talk Commanders' off-season while looking ahead to 2025. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Cheen Show. Here's Kevin. One guest on the show today, and he's a good one. Logan Paulson will join me beginning in the next segment. The show's presenting sponsor, as always, is Window Nation.

If you need new Windows, now is the time to reach out to Window Nation. Call them at 86690 Nation or head to Window Nation. com. mention my name. I promise you, they'll take good care of you. The Nationals last night, wow, they gave up seven home runs and a 10 to 6 loss to Colorado. One of the worst teams we've ever seen in Major League Baseball through 70 plus games. That is 10 losses in a row now for Washington. Mike Rizzo was on radio this morning with the junkies on 1067 the fan and the team 980. He did not sound like a guy who was on the verge of firing his manager. Here's what he said. Dave Martinez is as player-friendly managers I've ever had. He and Dusty Baker, to me, run the

clubhouse like no one else I've ever, you know, I've ever had in my career. So when you talk about, you know, one of the, you know, player managers in the league, Davies, you know, Davey's one of them. This guy does 500, 600 interviews a year. You know, he does, two a day, pregame, post game, every time. And, you know, he's flawless. But, you know, he got caught in a frustrating, you know, frustrating, angry, you know, we were six, whether we had six or seven, eight in a row at that time.

And they got caught in a frustrated moment and kind of last out. And I think it was out of frustration. Here's my take on that situation. Yeah, it's the, it's the, there's onus on the players, there's onus on the coaches, there's onus on the manager, and there's a great onus on the general manager

to do a better job. We all got to look in the mirror. Do you lose 10 games in a row? If he had to do it again, he would have done it, he would have got his point across, which was supporting the coaches in a smoother,

you know, a better way that it didn't it didn't ruffle the feathers of the fan base and I think it was, I do, I do think that it was, it was taking, it took a life of his own more so with the fan base and in the media than it did in the clubhouse. I know that for a fact. Tommy kind of said what Mike Rizzo said on the show yesterday when he said that, look, you know, Davy's been a player's manager for his entire career.

It was unlike him to say what he said Saturday, you know, which was, ripping the players by saying it's not the coach's fault. And Tommy felt like it was more, you know, frustration and more about protecting his coaches than actually ripping the players. And it seems like Mike Rizzo agrees. It certainly seems like there's no managerial change coming, none that is imminent. Now things change. They have two more against Colorado.

You can't lose to Colorado again and again. getting swept by the Rockies at this point in the season would be embarrassing. But they have two more and they've lost the first two. And then they have a very difficult schedule between now and the All-Star break. They have nine straight out in California, three with the Dodgers, three with the Padres, three with the Angels. That's not going to be easy. Then they come home to face Detroit and Boston.

And then they're on the road right before the All-Star break against the Cardinals, and the brewers, you know, you get to that, you know, break and what is that? Another 9, 15, somewhere in the neighborhood of another 21 games, add the two with Colorado. If you've got, you know, if that losing streak grows to like 15, 16, 17, or if it ends up being like 18 out of the last 19 or 19 out of the last 21, things could definitely change. for Davy Martinez, maybe just out of kind of the pressure of changing the overall vibe and optics. All right. Switching subjects. I got this from Matt. Matt writes, Kevin, I think it's not out of the question that the Skins coaching staff is top five in the NFL. What do you think? And then Matt writes, also, I really like the NBA finals talk on your show. Thanks, Matt. And he writes,

And he writes, surprisingly, I think your knowledge of basketball is higher than your knowledge of football. There's no doubt about that, Matt. No doubt about that. I played basketball. I've coached basketball. Basketball is the sport that I know the best by far. But back to your initial part of the question. What do I think is the staff that Dan Quinn assembled last year and kept together here in year two?

Is it a top five staff in the NFL? that might be a bit aggressive. Top five, it's a hell of a staff. You know, Cliff Kingsbury is, I think, certainly in the upper echelon of offensive coordinators. Joe Witt Jr. Larry Isso is the special teams coach. You know, they've got Anthony Lynn on the staff. They've got, you know, an up-and-comer for sure, and David Blow, Tevita Pritchard.

You know, Brian Johnson, I think, did a much better job than many of you. thought he would do last year. Bobby Johnson, a former, you know, coordinator, Norton Jr., you know, Pritchard Tapp. They've got an excellent staff. It's a really good staff. Top five, Andy Reed and his staff is better and probably would be the number one staff in the NFL. Andy Reid, Spags is the defensive coordinator. Matt Nagy is the offensive coordinator. I mean, you're not going to put Quinn in his group, you know, above that. You're not going to put Quinn in his group above Sean McVeigh and whatever coordinators, you know, group of coordinators and group of assistant coaches he has

because he has proven year and year out, even as he loses coaches to other teams, that he's able to find the next rising talents. And he is, as a head coach, phenomenal. I think Kevin O'Connell and Brian Flores as a combination in Minnesota is one that you would probably rank ahead of our group. Matt LaFleur and the Packers staff always gets a lot of credit from people around the league. Jeff Hathley really being sort of sized up as a first-rate defensive coordinator now. Look, I'm not a big Nick Siriani fan, but Vic Fangio and the rest of that staff, I don't know. I mean, I hate to say that Philly's staff, you know, is better.

But I think most people would rank it higher. They just won the Super Bowl. Look, Siriani's doing something right. I think at times he comes off as clownish, but he's clearly doing something right. And Vic Fangio, I think if he's not the best defensive coordinator in the league, he's certainly among the top two or three. You know, John Harbaugh and Todd Monkin and company in Baltimore. Tomlin with Arthur Smith, with, by the way,

Danny Smith still as the special teams coach there. Sean Payton isn't Vance Joseph, the defensive coordinator. Kyle Shanahan's got Robert Sala back. I don't know. Like, Quinn and Company certainly would be in that 6 to 10 range, I think. You know, no worse than top third in the league, top half of the league. league, you know, I think it's much better than just top half of the league. You know, there are other coaching staffs, by the way, that could end up becoming really good

staffs. I mean, Vrable with Josh McDaniels, just as the O.C. in New England, is a staff to watch. Jim Harbaugh's staff in L.A. with Greg Roman and the guy that he brought from Michigan as the defensive coordinator. Pete Carroll, you know, has Chip Kelly as the O.C. Yeah, right? I mean, what did I just name? Andy Reed, McVeigh, O'Connell, Philly staff, I hate to say. Matt LaFleurre, Harbaugh in Baltimore, Tomlin.

It's outside the top five, but it's probably not that far removed from somewhere around 10, you know, plus or minus two spots. That's what I would say. I got this, and I read this on radio, but I wanted to read it to those of you who don't listen to both shows, because this was interesting to me. It came from Denver Dan. Denver Dan wrote, Kevin, I've never called, never written, but I listen, and I know you've been a big John Elway fan over the years. I'm surprised Elway isn't the comparison you've used for Jaden Daniels.

In style, they are as close as any past-present QB comparison I can make. Same height, almost the same weight, unreal combinations of on-schedule and off-schedule quarterbacking. Their playmaking ability as passers and runners are identical. Clutch gene present in both guys. They're smart, great work ethic. Daniels is today's Elway. Your thoughts.

I love this because Denver Dan, you do listen and you've been listening for a while because John Elway's always been way up there for me. Like for many years, he was my number one. And Tom Brady's the number one now. And you're right, Denver, Dan. There are a lot of similarities between Jaden Daniels and John Elway. Now, I do think I've mentioned Elway before as a comparison. I'm pretty sure Elway's among the list of quarterbacks, you know, leading up to the draft in 24 and post-draft that I comped Jaden to.

I think probably the quarterbacks I've mentioned the most are Steve Young, Randall Cunningham, you know, Vic, Lamar, but a better passer. I know that I've mentioned Randall Cunningham a bunch because a lot of other people had comped him to Randall Cunningham. Although Randall Cunningham's throwing motion was completely different than Jadens. He had a wind-up motion. Jadens is quick, compact. I think Jaden's just a much better passer than Randall ever was.

But their body types, you know, taller, leaner, and their escapeability and their playmaking ability was very similar. The Elway Comp is a good one, Denver Dan. It is a good one. There are big differences, though. It's not perfect because Elway had one of the great arms of all time. You would not say that about Jaden Daniels. You would not say that Jaden's got the biggest arm in the league or one of the great arms we've ever seen. He's got a good arm. He really does. Elway and Marino during that era. I mean, Elway and Marino, have two of the greatest arms of all time. You know, you put it up there with Aaron Rogers and, you know, a guy like Mahomes for sure. Elway had a bigger arm. Elway had a bigger build. You know, their height, I think, is the same.

Their weight may be five, ten pounds different. But there's no doubt that Jaden's got a slight skinnier build than Elway had. Elway at 6.3, 6.3 and a half, 6.4, whatever he was, he was big. He had a big chest, big big. trunk. And even though he was a fleet runner, he could also bruise you as a runner. His frame could handle that. Jaden's not so much. I think Jaden as an explosive playmaker is at a higher level than Elway. I think he's faster. I think he's more explosive. I think Jaden can take it 80, you know, for a touchdown. Elway could take it 40 for a touchdown, no doubt. He was a great runner. John Elway

was. I don't think he's the runner that Jaden is. I've talked about Jaden being, you know, already after one year, one of the great running quarterbacks we've ever seen. He's much more than that. We understand that. But his elusiveness, his

vision, his speed, his stop and start, all that is comparable to Lamar and Vic and Steve Young and Randall. You know, Lway would have been interesting in today's football, because he would have been used in a lot of those dual threat packages as a read option QB.

But I would say that it's a really good comp. There are other good comps. The competitive, you know, clutch factor comparison is a good one. Elway is one of the great clutch quarterbacks of all time. You know, he's up there with Montana. He is, I mean, the game on the line, Stabler, Montana, Elway, you know, it's Staaback, you know, in recent years

guys like Mahomes for sure. But, you know, the throwing ability, you know, that was different. You know, he, Jaden's not Marino. He's not Elway. He's not Rogers in his ability to throw the football. But I did love that

because I'm pretty sure I've mentioned Elway, but I do think there are some real comparisons between Jaden and Elway. He's got a long way to go before he becomes John Elway understood. It's one year. But, you know, comps and these kinds of conversations are what we do, especially in the offseason. All right.

Let's get to Logan Paulson. We'll do that right after these words from a few of our sponsors. So, guys, if you're starting to notice your hair thinning when you look in the mirror, join the club, you're not alone. Life gets busier and busier and you don't have much time to think about it or do something about it. That's why I'm going to help. I'm going to suggest Hymns. Hems is a hair loss solution product. You can avoid jumping through a bunch of frustrating hoops and get access to treatment without even leaving your home. Hems makes treating hair loss simple with doctor-trusted options and clinically proven ingredients. You can choose from personalized

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with every four purchase. You can get a free door when you purchase a house full of windows and you don't have to pay anything for two full years. No money down, no payments and no interest charged until the year 2027. The windows come with a lifetime warranty and the in-home estimate comes at your convenience and free of charge. We've got a heat wave coming. If you've got older windows, you're going to pay too much for air conditioning this summer. Get new windows. Call Windonation today, 86690 Nation or visitwindonation.com for four free windows with every four purchased, a free entry door when you purchase a house full of windows, and don't pay anything for two full years. Joining me right now, one of my favorites and one of your favorites,

tight end, Logan Paulson, who does so much analysis work on the commander's YouTube page on their website with Santana and Smoot and everybody there. And we love having him when we get a chance to have him on this show. So look, the off season is for the most part over. Of course, there could be, you know, a roster edition somewhere down. the line between now and say shortly after the cut down from 90 to 53 in early September. We'll be there, by the way, before we know it. Can't wait to get there. But for the most part, the roster is what we see it to be right now.

Give me the areas, Logan, where you feel very obviously the team got better. Yeah, I mean, that's like, I think based on what happened in this agency cycle, it feels very obviously that that's the offensive line. I think when you look at the addition of Laramie Tunsell, the drafting of Josh Connerly, the movement of Brandon Coleman in the guard. I think all those moves make that group significantly better. They get more athletic. They get bigger.

They get better length at those positions. And again, there's a lack of experience at two of those spots, but I think you're betting on the upside of those players, really. And then the other one that I think maybe people would kind of push back with me on is probably the defensive line as well. Like I really like the addition of Dietrich Wise. Goldman, I think, is another really sneaky positive. addition. You know, like those guys, I think had a really good depth. I think they put drawn pain in a better position to be successful. I think they make Bobby Wagner better because they're going to play the run a little bit more consistently. So I think that's going

to be, I think both those sides of the footballs have gotten better. And I think it's, again, when you improve in the trenches, that just makes a better football team. Yeah, well, you answered the second question, which is give me an area not so obvious that you think the team improved on. And you just said it, because I I don't think that's obvious to most people. I actually felt, and I always feel like this time of the year, sometimes you learn more listening to coaches and players talk after OTA days and mini-camp days. And I thought it was interesting that Joe Witt Jr. and Dan Quinn a few weeks ago

really specifically isolated Duran Payne and said how thrilled they were with how he looked and how he was playing. did you feel the same way being present at some of these OTAs and minicamp days? Well, it's funny, they do a good job in OTAs and minicamps to make sure the veterans don't get too many reps. But it was funny, like, I don't listen to the press conferences before. I listen to them after practice. And on that day, I remember going to practice and watching Duran Payne just kind of by happenstance, like watch him kind of pursue a football, you know, a fake run to the right. It was a boot to the left.

he runs back after the quarterback. The quarterback throws the football to the low cross. He's the first guy in pursuit there. And I just remember thinking like, man, Dron looks like he's in really good shape. Very rarely do you see defensive tackles run and pursue that way. And when they are, like, they're really, really fit. So that was one thing that stuck out to me, just kind of his conditioning level, seems like it's in a much better spot to, I mean, to have a rep like that,

a couple reps like that during OTAs and minicamp. So, again, like we were talking about, foregoing on. Like, this is a time of year that's a little bit silly season. Like, you've got to show me more comprehensively that you're there, but I understand why they're excited about him. And again, he's a guy that I've always been, always liked. I always think he's got some good physicality. The athleticism, I think, is really underrated with him. So to see him kind of in a, see the conditioning. And then also, I think, you know, from hearing stuff that Coach Tapas said and Ryan Kerrigan has said that he's kind of stepping into more of a leadership role,

I think that also bodes really well for his 2025 campaign. Yeah, I know that you and I have talked about him in the past. I've always been a fan of Duran Payne's upside, you know, his best. Like, I think his best is way up there among Interior Defense of Lyman, but we just haven't seen his best consistently. We just haven't. That's been his issue. If he is at his best in 2020,

isn't that the biggest deal defensively for this team? Yeah, I mean, I think so. I mean, maybe it's definitely one of them. I think, you know, in terms of like biggest things for them this off season, I think it's definitely a top three thing. Like, I think if you can get him to be the best version of himself, playing that three technique, anticipating runs, being a penetrating, destructive player on the defensive line,

getting some production as a pass rusher again, I don't think he's ever going to get back to that 11.5 sack number, but I do think you'll see a guy who gets maybe eight, nine sacks with a bunch of TFLs, like that's going to be really, really devastating because he does have that difference-making athleticism. So, again, if you kind of get the best version of him, like, I think it'll be pretty dramatic in terms of improvement at the defensive line, defensive tackle spot specifically for this team. And again, that's something that you see – it's good to hear the coaches talk about.

It's good to see flashes of it in practice, but I really want to see what it looks like when, you know, it's team camp or they're practicing against a different team, you know, the New England Patriots, for example, as we're getting ready for the season and see if all of this kind of preseason hype amounts to anything. But yeah, if that is true, man, it's going to be really exciting to watch. You know, it's interesting, and I didn't realize this until, you know, I sort of talked about him the day that the coaches talked about him. He just turned 28 years old. I mean, this should actually, it's year eight, but he came into the league is a young player, this should be the height of his prime in the NFL at that position

at 28 years old, don't you think? Yeah, I think it's one of those things you forget, like, that people come in at different ages, you know, and that he was so young when he came in, and, you know, that 28 number for defensive tackles, they've kind of calcified their body, they've learned, they've seen the different combinations in terms of how the offensive line blocks things, what a double team feels like, what a trap feels like, what outside zone, inside zone feels like. So he's going to be able to play with tremendous confidence while still not losing any of

the athleticism, any of the athleticism made over a first round pick. So I'm really excited for him. And again, like all of this stuff, all of this kind of noise around him, the age, the athleticism, the coach's comments, seeing his conditioning and practice, to me kind of says he's poised for a bigger.

Obviously, he's got to go out and do it. But it's an exciting time for him. And you know, like we had to do a segment on the show, players you're most excited to watching 2025, and mine was Duran Payne because of the stuff we just talked about. All right. What roster-wise is your biggest concern area heading into the upcoming season? You know, that's tough because it's so speculative. But I'd say biggest concern right now, to me, it's probably offensive playmakers, specifically wide receivers, especially with

Brown's injury. Like, hopefully it's not serious because I will say when training, when OTA's mini-camp started and he was healthy, like, I was. I was like, man, and Terry wasn't even here. I thought, man, this group looks pretty good. Like Gallup looks like he's got his feet under him or he's getting his feet under him. Brown's doing a great job of creating separation and using that big frame. Debo, again, in the slot, kind of with some of these choice routes, slants, one-on-one winning opportunities versus a safety or a linebacker.

I thought, man, this is not a bad playmaking group. And it was so interesting when, you know, Noah Brown left that kind of starting rotation. It was a little bit like, oh, you know, now all of a sudden the depth gets called into question and you know Michael Gallup had a hamstring for mini-camps so that athleticism wasn't out there either and you're kind of like oh Luke McCaffrey who I thought had a really nice mini-camp period is now playing significant minutes for the offense and you know Terry's not here and it's just like wow this got really thin really quickly and I think that Terry thing's going to resolve itself sooner rather than later but that's

something that I kind of am keeping an eye on right like if if Noah Brown's not there who is the two number who is the true number two wide receiver in this offense obviously Diami was the guy that stepped into that role last year. The Kia said big minutes in that role last year. But is there a guy that is ready for that? Is Luke ready for that? And I think, again, he had a great OTA minicamp period. He looks like he's developed a lot in terms of the nuance of playing the receiver position.

But that's a question to me that kind of looms over the offense. It's really exciting to get Debo. It's really exciting to have Terry. But two players does not make a dynamic receiving group. So I'm keeping an eye on kind of the depth, the health, and the wellness of that group. How do you feel about Luke McCaffrey specifically? I mean, I think Luke, if I'm buying stock or evaluating the stock of Luke McCaffer,

he's got a lot better from last year to this year in terms of doing some of the receiver things. Like there were stretches of practice in minicamp in OTAs where he was creating great separation. You just saw kind of the elite shortshadow, the elite three cone that he had at the combine last year. And you kind of said, okay, there's some of the things where you still see some of the, of the, you know, he still needs to polish up some of those receiving abilities that he's still working on cultivating. He's only played receiver for four years, like counting this year, this is his fourth year playing receiver. And so some of the, like, hey, we're running a backside dig, the ball's a little bit late because the quarterback's working through his progression

instead of taking a flat angle coming out of my cut, do I attack the football? Do I wait for the football instead of moving towards it? Do I work my stem? How is my indicator at the top? Like, how do I paint a picture of a different route to open up the route that I'm actually running. Like that stuff needs to layer in a little bit. I think the athletes there, I think the competitor is there. It's just, is the nuance going to develop quickly enough for him to be a true two in this offense? And I think if you said, hey, he's going to be your four for the first eight weeks of the season and develop into something more, I'd be like, man, that's a great trajectory and arc for him.

But, you know, given the health of the receiver room at the moment, like, does he have to do that more quickly? and is he ready for that? To me, that's a more challenging question to answer. All right. Sticking with the receivers and you alluded to it, but where do you think that Terry McLaurin contract negotiation is right now? And how do you think it ends up? And by when?

I have no inside baseball in this. And I kind of take now as an analyst the same approach I took as a player. It's like that's his job and the team's job to work that out and determine the best contract for him. and it's his job to kind of strike while the iron is hot in terms of Terry and make the most money he possibly can. So whatever, you know, I think the team understands his role and his impact on this roster, and I think they understand the importance of getting him back. You know, and I think Terry wants to be here as a Washington commander,

and I think this will get resolved. But again, in terms of what I think the value is, what I think his value is, I'm not going to speculate on that. I think I'm just assuming they're going to get it done because I think they both want this thing to happen. You're not a player anymore. You are in the media now. This is what we do. It is true.

You know, what's interesting about it, because the first report that came out, I don't know, two weeks ago, three weeks ago, whenever it was, that, you know, that there was some contentiousness between the two sides. And I think we've learned that there is probably some between the two sides. I think it's a very interesting contract negotiation because on one hand, you've got a guy that you absolutely need because you are in a win now mode and you've got a chance to win a Super Bowl in 2025 and it would be very hard to do it without him. And on the flip side, as the team, you can't go setting outrageous precedence for guys that, you know, are

entering their 30s. Terry's a very good receiver, but he's not at the elite level. He's not at the Chase or the Jefferson level. I think it's actually kind of an interesting situation for the team and the player. I think they'll get it done. I certainly hope they get it done. But I do think, you know, in terms of a player who's going to be 30, who, you know, is really good but not super elite, and yet the team needs them, I think that it's an interesting situation that we're kind of viewing from the outside right now.

No, I totally agree. And, you know, people were talking about being contentious. I don't think I've ever been a part personally or observed through kind of communication with guys when I was playing or guys that I know now or undercar who are developing or trying to cultivate new contracts. Like it always gets a little contentious, right? Because you think of yourself in a certain way. The team thinks you have it in a different way. Like you're trying to get the most amount out of the contract and they're trying to be a good business. Like that's not your job as a player to think about that.

So I've always found that it gets a little contentious, a little heated. But I think you bring up a good point. Like, you know, I think you talk to most GMs, I think it's very easy for them to say, oh, he's not these players. He's not Justin Jefferson. He's not Jamar Chase. I think the contract that is interesting in terms of, like, if I'm Terry's agent, I look at the value of it, is the D.K. Metcalf contract. And I say, man, like, this is what we want to be paid above. And he, quite frankly, should be paid more than D.K. Metcalf probably because, you know, of his production, he's just been way more of an efficient player.

But, again, I think that contract was a bad contract by Pittsburgh. and I think it's going to be hard to kind of communicate that between the team and the players. So I think that's an interesting kind of variable in all this is how the market currently looks for the receiver market. But like I said, I don't have to do it. I don't have to think too hard about it. And hopefully Adam Peters and the organization get to done, I think they will. And I think Terry ultimately wants to be here. So I think it will happen at some point.

But like I said, contract negotiations always get a little bit funny. And I'm sure you've had similar experiences in your old professional. life, right? You want more money. Your organization doesn't want to pay you. And that always leads to friction, but usually that gets water under the bridge when they sign on the dotted line. It's business. You know, you know what? Something else is interesting about the Terry situation. And I didn't think about this until a caller, you know, brought it up the other day, is that a lot of our fans like to say, Terry's the anti-typical receiver. He's the anti-deva. But you know what's interesting is you look at like the, you know, a list of just say the top 20 receivers in the game,

which of course Terry is, you know, closer to 10, much closer to 10 than he would be 20. There are a lot of receivers that are not divas. You know, like I was going through the list, it's like Justin Jefferson's a great teammate. You know, Puka Naku is great. Mike Evans has always been, I think, first class. There are the receivers, the number of receivers that are in that diva category, I think is a smaller category or a smaller group than it used to be. Terry's not alone as being a really good teammate in a really good locker room guy at that position. I don't know. I just, it was an observation the other day.

No, I think it's a great point. I mean, I always think receivers get a bad rap. I think they get these, that they're kind of flamboyant in terms of their personalities on the field. but I think about, you know, Santana Moss, Pierre Garza, and Josh Morgan, guys that I played with. They were some of the best teammates, right? I played with, you know, Hopkins when I was in Houston. Like, he was a fantastic teammate. Julio Jones, fantastic teammate.

And so I think receivers understand that they can have big personalities, obviously. But, like, ultimately, like, that's part of the show. That's part of the position. And ultimately, like, to make a good team and a good organization work, you've got to be supportive of your teammates and their journey and their process. So I do think more players are leaning that direction. You know, and even honestly, Deshaun Jackson, who, you know, kind of had, you know, this reputation of being, you know, kind of a diva.

Like, I never had an issue with them as a teammate. You know what I mean? And so I do think people get these perceptions in terms of national media of guys. Right. But, you know, I think they're good dudes or good football players who love the game and want to be around it. And ultimately, if you're doing those things, you're going to be, you're going to be an all right dude to be around in the locker room. So I'm curious about something, and I think you're the perfect guy to answer this.

You were here in your rookie year with a new coaching staff. The Shanahan first year in 2010 was your rookie season. What should we expect in growth from year one to year two when you have coaching continuity? You've got continuity with many of the players. Now, I know 2011, by the way, now that I think about it, was a completely different quarterback situation than 2010 because it was the Beck Grossman year versus the McNabb year. But I think you get the idea.

Is there growth just because there is an understanding of how it works with the staff, you know? And if so, if that is true, how does it sort of manifest? Yeah, I mean, I think absolutely there's something to that. And what I would say is just like you, as a coach and as a, as a player, your comfort level just increases, right? You know the routine, you know what the expectation ours, you know what the standard is, and as a coach, you better understand the personnel that you're dealing with

and what you are good at in areas where players struggle and things you have to hide and things you have to work around. And I think that leads to a more dynamic offense or defense and a more kind of comprehensive understanding of the direction you want either side of the ball and as a result, the team to go. So, yeah, I think in year two, it's awesome, especially when you have a lot. a coach like Dan, who's got such a clear vision of what he wants the program to look like and the clear messaging he gives to the players and the clear messaging he gives to the coaches,

it just allows you to build on that first year in a really nice way going to the second year. Like I think about it from an offensive standpoint, it just lets you get a little bit more detailed. It allows you to kind of hone in on, you know, splits, route depths, you know, positions on blocks, like truly understanding what the coaching staff is looking for. and that's me as a player. And again, the coaches now, I'm sure, are just allowed to go into a little bit more detail,

a little bit more emphasis, kind of cutting out things that didn't work well and adding things that I think will fit the personnel a little bit better. So I think second year is there's an awesome opportunity for growth. And I think this staff is acutely equipped to handle that because of how talented it seems like everybody on the staff is. All right, well, maybe that will be a part of your next answer to this multiple choice question.

Jaden's 2025 season will be A, better than his rookie year, B, the same as his rookie year, C, worse than his rookie season. What's your answer and why? Yeah, this is something that I've honestly been really struggling with. I kind of, depending on the day, depending on the time of day you ask me, I kind of go back and forth on it. So my knee-jerk reaction is, I want to say A, but then the devil on my other shoulder says, well, how can he possibly be better than he was last year?

I mean, you're looking at one of the most efficient rookie seasons. Yeah. A guy that was excellent on fourth down, the completion percentage was crazy, his ability to find explosive plays. In terms of, like, 50 plus plays, they were third in the NFL in that statistical category. Like, holy cow. And then I say, well, you know, like, let me look at that a little bit more deeply, right? They added Laramie Tunsel.

They are going to get better at left guard, supposedly. They should be getting it right tackle, supposedly, with the addition to those two young guys in the movement of Brandon Coleman. and so they should be able to kind of evolve the offense. We just talked about what the coaching staff looks like, right? So I should be able now to work on some of the things that we're lacking in the offense. They should be able to attack kind of that 15 to 20-yard range on the field with those deep digs, those deep incomes, those high lows over the middle of the field,

which is not a feature of the offense in the same way last year. I think because of how Cliff emphasized Jane's skill set, emphasized his strength, but also because he was always managing pass protection issues. So if we can kind of develop that element of Jane's game, get him more comfortable in the pocket with better path protection, you know, with the addition of Laramie Tonsle and these other athletic guys along the offensive line, shoot, well, he could actually be better. And then you go to two and say, oh, it's about the same as his rookie year. So maybe they do improve in that category, but they don't win as many games or the completion percent goes down. Or they aren't as good as they were last year on fourth down, which seems like a very reasonable expectation because they were like 80 percent conversion on fourth down. they can't possess the football as long.

He gets less bites at the apple. He gets less efficiency there. So that's where it's like this is a really tough question because I think there's so many variables and there's such a multitude of ways this could go. Ultimately, I do think you'll see, quote-unquote, an improvement from Jaden, but what

does that improvement come across as to the fan base is the thing that I'm uncertain about? Like, if they win less games, if his completion percentage goes down, but he's more efficient in the red zone, or he's more efficient throwing over the middle of the field. Those things are going to be actionable,

big, noticeable differences for the offense, but statistically it might look different than the year before. So I guess to answer your question, I think it'll be better. I think he'll be better. I think the staff is that level of staff to get the most out of him. I think they've made the right personnel move specifically along the offensive line

to make those levels of improvement. I think Adam Peters deserves a lot of credit for a guy of seeking Laramie Tonsel out and getting him in the building. So I think the thing is, like I just don't know how fans will perceive his year two if it's not like light and day, night and day better than it was last year. And then I go back to my initial question, which is like, how do you, how do you get better on a really damn good year from last year?

You know, so like, that's kind of where I'm out. I think it'll be better. I just don't know how it'll be perceived by the fan base ultimately. So it's probably A or B, whatever, one or two, whatever you said there. No, some really good stuff in that answer. And I have, you know, answered the question when I've been asked. It's like the same thing. Like, what would we say next year about an area of improvement? Like, oh, man, he got much better at that. Like, there just isn't anything that is obvious. I know that they've spoken to things with footwork, et cetera, but there's nothing, you know, obvious to the average fan that you would say, oh, my God, thank God he got better at, you know, getting the ball out of his hands quickly or whatever it would be. All right.

So it's kind of that time of year where you and I were talking about this before we started to record. There's no real football. We just had OTAs in minicamp. But there's conversation about football. And the conversation, you know, usually among fans and analysts like yourself, focuses on new faces more than familiar faces. So among the new faces, who are you legitimately excited about? I mean, I think when you look at guys through the OTA period, a minicap period, the guy that was kind of definitively, in my estimation,

the most exciting guy was Trey Amos. I mean, he was very exciting. I mean, I want to say the first OTA practice, he had two interceptions, great coverage kind of throughout the process, great feel in terms of ball production, vision of the football, understanding route concepts. Like I was really, really impressed with him. Now, he didn't do everything perfectly,

but I think when you see kind of that early foundational instinctiveness from a young football player, that gets you tremendously excited. You know, obviously Laramie Tonsil was only here for a couple of days, but seeing him around, understanding what his pedigree is, is something that's very exciting. Another one is Harris, Will Harris from New Orleans, obviously, last year. He's a guy that I was really curious to see how they used him, and a guy that played multiple positions in New Orleans, and they kind of messed around with him in multiple spots.

like he played nickel one down, he played safety, he's kind of the extra linebacker, and I thought, man, here's a guy who has a coverage upside that I don't think we had at the position last year, and it gives you a lot of flexibility in terms of a guy that can blitz, can defend the run, and also adds a little bit in terms of coverage, and things and coverage ability. So those are two guys on the defense inside of the football

that I was very impressed with, and I was impressed with throughout, and I'm really curious to see what they look like during OTAs. and during training camp, excuse me. Yeah, you're not the first person to mention Trey Amos to me. But, you know, historically, the cornerback position needs time. It needs reps. It needs experience.

The sauce gardeners and the, you know, Pat Sertans and even, you know, the Mikey Sandristills are more the exception to the rule. Do you see him as a potential exception to the rule as a rookie? Oh, man, there's a reason there's rules, you know what I'm saying? Kevin. I think he's going to be, this is what I'd say. My expectation is that he's better than the people that we had here last year. I think the instincts are better. The ball skills are better. The understanding, the playmaking nuance is better from him. I still think he's going to go through some rookie struggles for sure. But I also have a lot of confidence. Like we talked about my confidence in Cliff Kingsbury and the offense and getting Jane better. I have a lot of confidence in Joe

Whit Jr. that he knows how to coach DBs to find ball production. And I think about him, the other defensive coaches on the staff and their ability, again, to seemingly maximize players' superpowers and put them in good positions to be successful. And I do think that AMO says all the requisite tools to do that. And I think you've got a guy in Joe Wood Jr. who knows how to maximize the skill set that they brought. And, you know, like you talk about, we talk about Adam Peters getting Laramie Tunsel. I also think Adam deserves a ton of credit for finding these people that seem to fit the offensive and defensive vision so acutely. And I think that's one of the reasons why, again, is it going to be perfect with Graham?

most know. I think the infrastructure and the environment for him is going to be one that I think supports a very positive first year. And I think it's going to be an improvement over that second cornerback spot for most of the year last year. All right. Let's take a quick break more with Logan Paulson after these words from a few of our sponsors. This segment of the show is brought you by MyBooky. If you want to bet on sports, go to mybooky.orgie. Use my promo code, Kevin D.C. MyBooky will give you a cash bonus on your initial deposit. They've got all of the 2025 NFL futures betting opportunities up at MyBooky.

Over under win totals have been up for a while. Washington's remains at nine and a half. That's the number. You bet over. You're going to pay minus 127. You bet under. You get plus 104. So on a $100 bet, if you bet over,

you've got to wager 127 to win 100. If you bet under, you bet $100 to win $104. That is less than some of the other teams in the NFC. Phillies at 11.5. Detroit is at 10 and a half. And the 49ers are at 10.5. That's a high number for the 49ers. But man, the 49ers have gotten a lot of respect here from the odds makers well in advance.

of the season. The expectation is, if they stay healthy, they're still a really good team. Last year, they were not a healthy football team. The week one odds are up the first game of the year. Dallas, Philadelphia on Thursday night, September 4th, the Cowboys are seven-point dogs at the defending champs. Night two, the chiefs are three-point favorites in Brazil over the Chargers, and then when we get to the full slate of Sunday games, Washington, right now at MyBooky, a six and a half point favorite over the Giants. We've seen that number move between six and a half and seven and a half. The total in that game is 46. MyBooky.orgie.orgia.com promo code, Kevin, DC. So we continue with Logan Paulson. And I asked you about some of the

new players, new faces that you're excited about. What about the returning players, specifically the players who didn't contribute in a meaningful way? Do you have a candidate for, let's call it, a breakout season in 2025? Yeah, so, oh, that's a good question. Obviously, I talked about Luke McCaffery already in terms of his improvement. We'll see in terms of how the depth charge sached out, like, where he actually lands. Two guys that caught my eye in an impressive way. One was Jordan McGee. Again, like, I was in love with him.

I was infatuated with him at the beginning of last year during training camp. I just thought he moved so well. He was physical. And then for him to get hurt, like, on the first play of the first preseason game, was so disappointing because then he kind of was negotiating that injury for the rest of the year or derivatives of that injury, you know, the knee, then the hamstring, then the ankle. and he was never quite himself, but I am excited to see what he looks like. Another guy that, again, every time I look at him,

playing linebacker is Dominic Campton, and he just looks like a taradacal out there. And when you've got long arms like that, the range that he's got, the coverage instincts he's got, he just covers a lot of ground and takes up a lot of space, especially in the passing game. And I think about the way the linebacker position is going and the archetypes of the position, like Fred Warner is a good example,

that like these guys that are converted safety, that can play in the box, that have range, good coverage instincts. Like, I'm not saying he's going to be, you know, this dynamic guy right out the gate, but the frame, the profiles, the movement skills of both of those guys are stuff that just, it's hard to ignore when you're watching practice. And I understand they're running with the twos and sometimes they're running with the threes. But those are guys that I really am excited about. And I think, you know, given the fact that they're being mentored by a guy who's going to be in the Hall of Fame of Bobby Wagner,

hopefully some of that gold jacket rubs off on them and they figure some stuff out and become really solid pros moving forward. By the way, speaking of sort of the blending of those positions, safety and linebacker, which of the two is Kane Madrano, the rookie from UCLA? Oh, my. Yeah, man, he's a fun guy to watch move around on the field. Like, he does, I think he definitely has more of kind of that big nickel to his game

than like true in the box linebacker. but I think that was one of the enigmas about watching him at UCLA. I think his true home is kind of that star, big nickel spot, you know, where you're kind of matching up and covering a lot of ground and space. But he did play in the box, and he did even some work on the edge, like setting an edge of a stand-up outside linebacker. So he definitely, to me, the movement skills seem to fit in the safety box more. But, man, he's a fun guy to watch.

Like his ball awareness is very high. His coverage instincts his movement skills are great. Like, there's a play that I was just thinking about, what you were asking about it, where he's on the field with Dominic Campton, and they're just able to cover so much ground because of their movement skills and because of their athleticism. Now they're not in pads. They haven't had to tackle anybody yet, and that's a big part of the position.

But those two guys, I think, will be really interesting. And I don't want to be adding this fodder to off-season height for people. But I get excited about big athletes that move well because of the potential that they bring to the spot. And so we'll see how the training camp looks for both those guys. but I'm definitely going to keep an eye on them in training camp and hopefully they can carve out a role because that would be really exciting to get athletes like that on the field. So last year they actually contended for a Super Bowl.

They were 16 minutes away from it without a great defense. My contention is if they're not improved significantly on defense, it's going to be hard to get back to where they were last year. So I would ask you, do you have expectations that this defense will be improved, and if so, why? Yeah, I think that's a really good question, actually. And I do think they are going to be significantly better, and it's mostly because of the stuff we talked about earlier

with Duran Payne, Kinlaugh, Dreson Newton, Goldman, Detrick Wise, Cleveland Farrell being back. I think what they did is they went out and they found people to make this team better on first down. I think when you look at last year, the big struggle, in my opinion, was how this team handled. first down runs specifically.

And they're getting into, you know, second in sixes, second in fives, because the running efficiency for the opposition team was so high. So you've gotten out, you've gotten better on first down, and you didn't just get better. I think you've found guys that are like specialty pitchers in baseball a little bit. Like Goldman is a true shade nose player, and there aren't a lot of those guys in the NFL, and you get a guy that has that kind of athletic profile. Now, he's not going to, you know, play 60 snaps for you.

but if you can come out on 20 and do his thing, which is split double teams, keep linebackers clean, make you a little bit more efficient in terms of stopping the run on first down, add in Dietrich Wise, his size, his ability to rush the passer inside, outside, I think it's going to be really a nice kind of, again, add-on feature there. And then if you get Kim Laugh going in the right direction, man, like he is an explosive dude who can really be disruptive. I think, again, those additions in the front, I think make Bobby Wagner better.

I think they make it easier for him to do what he, he does well, which is mirror the running back, fit gaps, make tackles, right? And then if you're better on first down, now we can get into some of the exotic stuff that Joe, what Jr. wanted to do. And if you go back and watch that first Tampa Bay game, man, they had some really fun pressure packages lined up. They had some really cool kind of fire zone pressures, man pressures, cross dogs, different things to create pressure.

And so I'm very confident that if you can get into more second and a long, third-long situations. Joe Wood Jr. can get into his bag more. So I just look at the additions that they've made on that defensive line, and everyone's got to stay healthy, obviously. But I think that puts them in a better position to be who they want to be on second and third long. They've added some good coverage pieces to the back end.

We've already talked about Trey Amos. Love Mikey Santer still in the slot. Marchon Lattimore, again, we've got a few where he's at, but he looked good in minicamp. So I love Percy Butler, and I love Will Harris, and I love Juan Martin in the back end, kind of in a rotation there. So I do think they're going to be better because of the personnel additions they've made to be better on first down. And I think, your other question, for them to go where they want to go, you need to see that level of improvement. So maybe I'm kind of anticipating something positive because I want them to get back to, you know, to the Super Bowl and the playoffs, obviously.

But I think the personnel moves are very, very smart along that defensive line because there's a clear vision of how this team gets better very quickly from them. Great answer. I hope you're right. you touched on a player and I'll just finish up with this. Are you confident that Marshawn Latimore can be Marshawn Latimore of pro-bowl years in New Orleans or not? So I don't think he's ever going to get back to that level of player. You know, time waits for no man. But what I am confident in is that Joe Whit Jr.

is going to be able to maximize what he does, right, and not put him in these kind of these binds the way he had to be in at some point last year in terms of learning a new system coming off a short week in terms of getting healthy. Remember the hamstring thing was always kind of omnipresent throughout the year. So I think I have, let me say this, I have faith in Joe Whit Jr. I have faith in that defensive staff to find the best version of Marshawn Lattimore. And even though that might not be the guy that was dominating the league a couple years ago, I think he's still pretty damn good football player.

So that's where my optimism comes is in the staff. Like a good coaching staff man can make a, it always elevates play. and I think that's what we're going to see here. That's an interesting answer because they didn't make that trade to have a player that got coached up to a level that was really good. They made that trade in hopes that they were snagging a Pro Bowl corner. Well, what I would say to that is like this is just my personal opinion and maybe that's why this sounds weird. is because I think a Pro Bowl corner is so, it's such a Fugazi. It's like not a real thing.

Like obviously there's Patrick Tan. But even if you look at Soss Gardner's example, like he had a down year last year. And he might have gone to the Pro Bowl, but like when I watched his film, like I don't know if he deserved that. So what I am saying is I think you've got a good player and instinctive football player, a tough football player, a guy with good ball skills, right? And it's competitive. A competitive at the catch point is going to not shy away from any matchups. and now you've got a staff that can help elevate him and put him in a position where he's better than Soss Gardner was last year, right?

We saw what bad coaching and kind of a tumultuous situation did for Soss Gardner, who's one of the better quarterbacks in the NFL, what that did for his career last year. So that's what I'm saying. I think you've got a guy who, again, great ball skills, competitive tackler, competitive in terms of matchups, like he's not shining away from anything, he's instinctive, and now you put him in a system where maybe he does get back to that Pro Bowl level.

And so that's where I'd say, like, the Pro Bowl corner thing, is where I kind of back off because I don't think that's a real thing. I think the player by themselves aren't, it has to be elevated by a scheme, basically. And I think the scheme here is good enough to get that done. Logan Paulson is not Fugase. He is the real deal. He is totally genuine and one of my favorite people to have on this podcast. Thank you for doing this at Logan underscore Paulson 82 on Instagram,

take command podcast. with Craig Hoffman and all that he does for the commander's website and YouTube channel. Thanks. We'll talk again, I'm sure, before the season starts. Awesome. Thanks, Kevin. Appreciate having me on, buddy. Logan Paulson, everybody. All right, that is it for the show today. Back tomorrow with Tommy.