The Kevin Sheehan Show - Jay Bilas & Logan Paulsen

Episode Date: February 21, 2026

Kevin opened the show responding to an emailer who thinks Washington has to go for it with "knowns vs maybes". That got Kevin thinking about Maxx Crosby via a trade. ESPN's Jay Bilas joined Kevin a day before #1-ranked Michigan faces #3 Duke in DC. Jay discussed Buzz Williams and the Terps, the saga of Darryn Peterson, the coach he would like to see win it all, and a lot more. After Bilas, Logan Paulsen  jumped on to preview the Commanders' upcoming off-season.   For all your football betting needs: DCRELOAD at MyBookie for a 50% Deposit Match Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it, but you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Sheehan Show. Here's Kevin. Two guests on the show with me today, and I'm going to get to him pretty quickly. Jay Billis next segment. Jay's in town with ESPN for tomorrow night's number one versus number three matchup between Michigan and Duke at Capitol One in Chinatown.

Following Jay Logan Paulson will join me on today's show. show. The show is presenting sponsors. Always, Window Nation, 86690 Nation, windownation.com, if you need new windows. This from Edward to open up the show. Edward writes, Kevin, the best chance Adam Peters and Dan Quinn have to sticking around beyond next year is to win 10 or more games

and make the playoffs. The best shot of doing that is to legitimately go for it with knowns versus maybes. If you think this team turns it around next year without an absolute known beast or two on defense, and at least one major known playmaker added to the offense, you're kidding yourself. Max Crosby must be pursued, and it doesn't stop there.

How good would Joey Bosse look opposite Crosby on passing downs? Brandon Ayuk must be acquired if he passes a physical. Knones versus maybes is the way to go. Thank you, Edward, for that. Appreciate it. And you know what? A lot of what you wrote, as I read it, resonated with me. And I think the part that resonated most with me was the first player name you mentioned, Max Crosby.

because if you are in win now mode, and by the way, win big now mode, and we can argue as to whether or not that's the position this team is in or not, but it is much better to go get Max Crosby than it is to acquire a player or draft a player that you're projecting to be a Max Crosby type. Max Crosby also because of his recent high level of performance, his age and condition, the position he plays, that's as much of a guarantee on an acquisition as you can get. You know, it's not scheme dependent necessarily. His age is perfect. He's been a dominant player. He's a true at times game wrecker.

You're going to get that player barring injury. he's going to perform for you at a Max Crosby level more likely than not. I mean, it's as close to a guarantee as you can get. There are no guarantees. Now, let me just say this. Look, I think Dan Quinn's seat is warm. I don't know that Adam Peters and Dan Quinn have to win 10 plus and make the playoffs to stick around. Because to zoom forward and kind of predict what the context around whatever record they have next year,

to try to predict what that will be is foolhardy. The NFL's impossible to predict. No one would have predicted Washington would have had all the injuries they had. There was context around 5 and 12. There may be legitimate context around 9 and 8 next year, or 10 and 7 and not making the playoffs, or 7 and 10. Who knows? It's hard for me to zoom ahead and say,

if they don't win 10 plus and get into the postseason, they're both gone. Also, by the way, you can make the case that to a certain extent, they went for it last year. They treated last year aggressively. The trade for Latimore, the trade for Tunsel, for sure. That's almost in the same category as Max Crosby. You knew you were getting a player that was going to perform at a high level for you

because he had recently done it, and he was at an age in which it wasn't all of a sudden going to fall apart. Now, the difference with Tunsell is you got to pay them in this offseason. Crosby just signed a three-year contract extension last summer. But anyway, I agree with you. I just don't know that they're in that kind of win-now mode, but if they are and they're feeling that pressure, Max Crosby is a good place to start.

If he's available, I would certainly want Washington to pursue him. Now, my thought about Washington pursuing a player like Max Crosby is, do they have enough to get them? Because obviously there would be a war to get Max Crosby if he's made available. I mean, and there are teams with many more draft picks and better players to include in a trade. You know, I've seen some, you know, hypothetical trades for Max Crosby. You know, and it's like DJ Moore and a first round pick from Chicago, you know, in a third round pick.

Like Washington doesn't have a second and a fourth from this draft. Could they trade Terry McLorn and next year's first rounder? Yes, but you're not going to want to trade Terry McClorn. You need Terry McLorn if you're in win now mode. I think at the very least, Washington would have to give up next year's number one. You're not giving up number seven. And it might be what Vegas would require. you know, is number seven overall.

But you'd probably have to give up next year's first rounder, 2027, and this year's third and fifth. And so now you basically don't have any picks after the first round. I would definitely, though, be interested in Max Crosby if he were available. And Joey Bosa, yeah, the problem with Joey Bosa, he's been hurt. but somebody else on the other side, a Khalil Mack, a Joey Bosa, you know, a veteran player to go with Dorrance Armstrong and Jacob Martin. Now we're talking, you know. The Brandon Ayuk thing, see, that's more of a maybe.

That's more of a projected. That's not a known, Edward. Brandon Ayuk is coming off a serious injury and there may be, you know, a screw loose or two. I mean, this is a guy that literally went AWOL. Now, do I like Brandon Ayuk as the player? And if he passed the physical and they thought they were getting Brandon Ayuk of 2023, sign me up. He was great.

I talked about him on radio today. You know, at the end of 2023, Brandon Ayuk was the number two ranked wide receiver in the NFL per PFF for what it's worth. Tyreek Hill was one. Iyuk was two. Iyuk's 2023 season was outstanding. And he got paid. You know, it took him a while to get paid, but he got paid. Now, with Ayuk, what'll be interesting is we know he's not going to play for the 49ers.

So will they release him or will they get something for him? The problem with trading for Ayuk is then you're acquiring $27 million in contract value for next year. You'd rather him sign with you after he gets released. And certainly if they were to not get a lot of offers for trade and he got released, Washington would be on his list, you would think, because of Jaden Daniels. I also think as it relates to Iuk, and I said this on radio this morning, I'm not necessarily a fan of going down that path because of the crazy that we've seen with him over the last year and a half. but Adam Peters knows the player. Jaden Daniels knows the player and the person. So if Washington did it, I would trust it.

I would trust that they had a lot of information and felt like it was totally worth it. With Ayuk, it's not a big risk. It'll be more reward because that's, yeah, there's guaranteed money. I'm not saying there isn't some, you know, meaningful guaranteed money, but it's not 27 million. It's highly incentivized after, you know, I'm guessing after, you know, a $10 to $15 million base salary somewhere around there. And then incentives that could get him up to where he was in San Francisco. And then you make him prove it.

I mean, I'm interested in that if he passes the physical. And Adam Peters and Jaden Daniels, you know, I say Jaden Daniels, not because I'm making him general manager, but because Jaden Daniels knows him. and Jaden Daniels has gone public. You know, recently Super Bowl Week, mentioning Brandon Ayuk's name again, certain receiver at Arizona State that I played with that might be available. But you never know if Jaden isn't just doing that because he wants his friend to know that he still cares about him and likes him.

And maybe behind the scenes Jaden's telling Adam Peters and Dan Quinn, the dude's nuts. I'm not sure we want him. I don't know. But I hear what you're saying. Edward, I do. And you know, they kind of did some of that last year.

And I think there will be some of that incorporated into you know, a major roster, you know, overhaul and hopefully upgrade that is coming our way. Real quickly before we get to Jay Billis. Last night, I stumbled upon

the Winter Olympics and the figure skating, a free skate finale or their last, you know, their last, you know, scored event. I think there's a short program earlier in the week and then there's this longer program, the free skate. And I was blown away with the gold medal winner, Alyssa Lou, or Liu, from the Bay Area, Northern California. I wasn't going to watch it necessarily, but I flipped it on and they were doing kind of a feature on her. Wow. This is a girl who at 13 won a U.S. figure skating champion, Chip, the youngest ever.

At 16 was in the Olympics in Beijing, and then quit skating at 16 years old. Why? Because she didn't like it. She hated it. Legitimately hated skating. The father was obsessed, pushed. The father was Chinese. actually, you know, has five kids that did it, and he did it through surrogates, and she's the oldest. He was persecuted Tiananmen Square, 1989, fled, came to the U.S., started this family, made, you know, a bunch of money, self, you know, made when he got here to the U.S., but figure skating with his oldest daughter was his thing. He was one of those parents. They were trying to, you know, hey, man, you got to stop. showing up. You got to stop telling us what to do. One of those. And she hated skating and retired

from the sport at 16 years old. And then she decided two years ago prior to these Olympics in, you know, in Italy, that she wanted to skate again. But on her terms, she would pick the outfits. She would pick the music. She would pick the routine. She would pick when she practices. She would pick what she eats and what she does socially. She was not going to let it rule her life again. But she also said, I'm not in this for a medal. I'm not in this even for the Olympics. I'm in this for the art of skating. It's my artistic output. And she won the gold medal last night. And I know that some of you know her story much more than I did before last night. Because apparently she is, you know, a known entity in the world of Olympic sports.

But I was blown away with just the whole clutch factor, the charisma. Like, I don't know much about anything when it comes to Olympic sports, but I would imagine she's going to make a lot of money after last night. She's charismatic. She's smart. She's enjoyable to watch as an athletic performer. from her standpoint as an artistic performer. I just thought the story leading into it, which I had not heard,

and then the performances itself, which was flawless, was, you know, great theater last night, for sure, and great athletic theater, even if she didn't approach it that way. She did not seem nervous at all compared to her competitors. I enjoyed that, as I did the end of the, women's hockey game. Didn't catch the whole thing, but I caught the overtime. Good for the U.S. women. And now the U.S. men are into the final. They just beat Slovakia and they'll play Canada who rallied to beat Finland in the Olympic men's hockey final. I will watch that. Man, I was not into

these Olympics and over the last couple of days, Schifrin, Michaela Schifrin's slalom run. I watch that. man, what a speech, what an interview she did about the passing of her father a few years ago and how she's been able to sort of process grief and sorrow. I mean, what an impressive 30-year-old she is. I'd say some of these individual sport athletes, Olympic or otherwise, I think sometimes are the most impressive to sort of watch and listen to in kind of an interview. it's not always the case, I guess. But Schifrin and, you know, Liu, Lou, very impressive.

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It's so important for me and our ability to generate ad sales for this podcast. Both Apple and Spotify give you a chance to give the show up to five stars. If you think the show deserves it, that's obviously best for us. Apple does give you a chance to write a quick review if you want to do that. Also following the podcast, hit the plus button, hit the follow button to follow the show. That is big for us as well. All right. Joining me right now, Jay Billis.

Jay will be part of College Game Day tomorrow at Capital One Arena on ESPN. prior to a day filled of college basketball, which includes Michigan and Duke 630 tip on ESPN at Capital One Arena down in Chinatown. Jay, of course, has been calling games for ESPN and been a part of their analyst group for years. He's been doing a lot of NBA in recent years as well, and I'm going to ask him about Darren Peterson as part of this conversation. but I want to start with this. You know how passionate the Maryland fan base is, and it's been kind of an ugly season. Calm the fears of Maryland fans that are impatient

and are angst-ridden over Buzz Williams, if you can, Jay. Well, what I would say is, and I'm not going to tell Maryland fans out of field, but I would say you've got an outstanding coach, and it's year one, and I realize that with the transfer portal, everyone thinks that you know, you can just get whatever team you want. But in the first year,

it doesn't always happen that way. But, you know, his track record is clear. Like, I've been, I've known Buzz since he was, I think before he was at Marquette. And just a, he's a tremendous coach. And I do believe he'll get it straightened out and figured out. But you're just not going to find a more loyal, better guy than Buzz.

So I think, I do think Maryland's in good hands, but, you know, everybody has to deal with the record they have. So I get it. I'm a fan of teams, too. I'm a huge Rams fan, Dodger fan, and all that stuff. So, you know, I like to grumble, too, when things don't go their way, but I get it. But buzz is terrific. So I want to get your thoughts on Darren Peterson. He's been a major topic of conversation, not only among college basketball fans, but NBA fans, because he's essentially been at the top of, of the mock drafts for a while now. And he's a tremendous talent. There's no doubt about that.

But his availability has been an issue this year at Kansas with a number of ailments. And it seems to be a bit of a mystery. So your thoughts on the Darren Peterson situation? Yeah, it's a bit of a curious case because Darren Peterson never showed this wasn't an issue for him in high school. Like he's a competitive player. So this was never even on the radar.

And my thing, Kevin, is like I call Kansas games and I talk to their practices. I talk to Bill Self. I don't have any hint other than he's been dealing with some difficulties with his, first it was a hamstring. And then he had some curious cramping that was difficult for him. But, you know, when you don't get a lot of information out of teams like you used to, You know, now they say lower leg injury when it's really planetar fasciitis or whatever. So you don't get as much information as you used to. They're very protective.

And so I don't really know what it is. But in the absence of a lot of sort of information that we used to get, people tend to speculate. And so I try as best I can to stay away from that. And, you know, like I'll give you an example. There's a player at Louisville right now named Michael Brown Jr. who is a great player, freshman. And he injured his lower back and missed some games. And you start hearing people saying,

oh, his people are telling him to shut it down because he's going to be a high draft pick. I was like, well, where are we getting this from? Where is this coming from? And then he comes back and he scored 45 points in a game last week. Right. So, you know, clearly that speculation about shutting it down wasn't true. But as you know, in the absence of perfect information, people are going to say stuff. And I just cannot imagine that given the role that freshmen are playing this year,

where we've had multiple freshmen go for over 40, that somehow Darren Peterson is going to say at half time, yeah, my 23 is enough. I don't need to get 40 and join this club. I just don't believe that. And if he really wanted to protect his draft status, then shutting it down would be better than this. because of the speculation that comes with it. So I just don't believe that he's getting some advice that, hey, once you play it a certain amount of minutes, that's it. I don't believe that, and I would need some information to prove otherwise.

Would you have advice for how he should handle it? Because what you just said makes a lot of sense that shutting it down actually might be better than the questions that are raised by him going for 20 and a half, half and exiting early or the, you know, five, ten minutes before tip against Arizona coming into your building in a big-time matchup? Would you have advice for how they should handle it publicly? Well, if there's, if it's not possible for whether it's Darren or for the coaching staff to be able to say, hey, here's what's going on and let me explain it to you. I don't know what you can do, But I just don't, I just don't believe that somehow you've got a scenario where, you know, he's coming in and out of the lineup because he feels like it.

And, you know, one of the games that he missed, I think it was the Arizona game that you just referenced, he's got flu-like symptoms. And so what do we, you know, then you have people saying, well, like Michael Jordan played with the flu. Like, you know, you should play through it. it's always somebody else playing through it. It's not you. Like, I mean, when I had to flew up flat on my back, I'm not thinking about playing. But he was not tied. He was not tied to a toilet, you know, either knees next to it on his knees next to it

or sitting on it. He was on the bench, and it seemed to be a surprise that he was actually not going to play pretty close to tip off. Yeah, but also it was said that the doctors advised that he didn't play, that they told them not to. and I don't remember him being on the bench. I remember him being reported that he was told, don't sit on the bench, you know, for the idea that you might, you know,

other players might pick it up from you. But again, I don't know. And I just can't imagine that he would go through practice. And then because he practiced those days. And he'd go through practice and then right before the game saying, no, I'm tapping out. I just don't believe that. I would have to have some evidence to make me believe.

that. And right now when I don't have any, I'm not willing to speculate and sort of question as manhood or his competitiveness when he's never shown. And man, when he plays, there's no argument. He's the best player. Right. Yeah. So you feel that way. I mean, you know, the wizards here in D.C. potentially could end up with number one overall. That's going to have to be one of the all-time due diligence, you know, investigations by Will Dawkins, the GM. They're going to have to really get some answers to try to solve this mystery, don't you think? Yeah, and they do that anyway. Like, the amount of intelligence gathered by NBA teams is really staggering.

So there's not going to be a, there wouldn't have been otherwise because those picks are so valuable. And especially this year when your decision would be, do you take Darren Peterson or AJ DeBanza of BYU or Kingston Fleming of Houston, there are so many outstanding players that if you have to move from choice number one to choice number two, you just want to make sure whatever choice you make is the right one. Because you're so much talent in this draft, there's an argument to be made that you almost can't make a mistake,

but the one mistake you want to avoid is getting a player that may have an issue that's going to keep them off the court. If these guys play, all these guys are so good that are going to be at the top of the draft, in my view, if they're available to play, they're going to do really, really well. And that's, so is there a concern there? Yes. But I was just talking to one of my colleagues about this. Like, I can't imagine that there would be anybody advising Darren Peterson, that this is, you know, sort of, this is the way you should do it.

Like, I could see somebody saying, look, man, you get nothing out of playing in college. the real money's your next step, shut it down. If he shut it down, he'd get taken number one. If he had not played at all, he'd be taken number one. This in-and-out stuff gives the media a chance. I don't know what the NBA guys are saying behind closed doors, but it just raises unnecessary questions in your mind that takes you down an avenue that you shouldn't have to go down

because, man, when that guy's on the court, there's no talk about availability. there's like, man, this guy's a real deal. They don't make them like him very often. Well, that's the last one on him that I want to ask you is, you know, you get a lot of people now that football seasons in the rear view, they start focusing on college basketball, and they're hearing a lot about Darren Peterson. If they haven't seen him play, how would you describe his game?

You've already said he is the number one, number one, you know, based on talent and potential at the NBA level. How would you describe his game? he's the smoothest, most effortless shotmaker that I've seen in college since Kevin Durant in Texas in 2007. They're different players. Durant was, you know, 610, long, lanky. But this guy can make shots from anywhere. And he plays both ends of the floor.

I called his game against BYU, where he had 18 points in the first pass. He also had three steel. And so he's playing both ends of the floor, and he's uber talented. You know, some people will say he reminds him a Kobe Bryant or stuff like that. You know, I see that a little bit differently, but, you know, I'm not as good at the comp thing to say, okay, he plays just like this guy. But I don't think it takes, like, you know, sometimes when you're evaluating a player, I do think it takes, you know, some experience of having seen it to feel comfortable. But there are certain guys, you know, you don't need to see it. Like, you don't need experience.

You know it. And, you know, like LeBron, you knew it. and this guy, like, you know it. Like, he's the real deal. And they don't make them, they don't make them like this very often. I said that before. But, you know, I'm a huge fan of his. And this is the only question mark is, you know, this thought of, you know, we don't have perfect

at least I don't have perfect information on it, and it raises some questions. But I don't question his talent. That's unquestionable. I have a sense about this season, about this regular season, that it's a little bit different than the ones in previous years and that maybe the sport is experiencing a bit of a pre-march revival. Do you feel that way about this year or not? A little bit. What I would say, Kevin, is every year is pretty different. So what I think is interesting is because we've had so many off-court changes with NIL and revenue sharing and all

this stuff in the transfer portal, two years ago, I think it was, you know, Florida or maybe three years ago. Florida Atlantic and San Diego State both went to the final four, and we had a number of upsets in the tournament. And there were so many people out there saying, well, the world is flat. Anybody can win now. Now we've got parody and all that stuff. And last year, the four number one feeds made it. And then the narrative was, well, NIL has ruined the sport. The little guy can't win anymore. You're like, wait a minute, one year. Like, how do we go from the world is flat to now they can't win anymore. So this year, I think we're going to see a little bit more volatility because we don't have these super teams at the top like we did last year with Florida and Houston and Duke and all

that in Auburn. This year, Michigan, I think, is the best team. I think they're proving that game to game, but it's not as cut and dried beyond that. There are other really good teams, but I've never seen a freshman class like this. And the star power that the game has, you know, You have guys, you have multiple freshmen. I mean, Darius A Cup Jr., who plays at Arkansas, I had 49 the other day. Yeah, nearly 51. Yeah, we've seen so many of these great, great freshmen,

and the list goes into the 20s of guys that are leading their league in scoring or leading their league in rebound or all that stuff. It's astounding how good these players are so young, and yet the game has gotten older because of NIL. you're seeing really good players stay longer than they did years ago because they can wait until they're really ready to go into the NBA and make money while they're doing it. And so we're seeing an older game and then younger guys are dominating.

That's how good this freshman class is. Yeah, it's an amazing thing because I think in the last couple of years, I have felt as a fan of a specific team, I would rather my coach recruit the portal better than recruit. root 16, 17, and 18-year-olds at a high school, but an incredible freshman season. Is there a coach that you root for who hasn't done it, meaning hasn't been to a final four or hasn't won a national championship that you'd like to see kind of complete that journey more than any other?

Yeah, well, I think, you know, sort of if you take the emotional side of it, because I don't, you know, you know how it is in this. but like, I don't care who wins. But when you think about the people in the game, I think it would be wonderful to see Mark Fuick-Gonzaga win a championship. I mean, he's been to the championship game a couple times. They lost the Baylor a few years ago and lost to North Carolina. I think it was 2017.

So he's knocked on the door at a place that shouldn't be knocking on the door traditionally. And his belief that they could do it there is astounding. So I'd like to see that. and one of his former assistants at Arizona right now, Tommy Lloyd. You know, Arizona has won a championship since 1997. I think he's got a great shot to do it this year. Going through Michigan isn't going to be easy. But, yeah, there are guys like that.

And, you know, I would love to see Tom is going to get another one. And there's one guy who I've known forever that has had one of the richest journeys through the game. That's Kelvin Sandton. Yeah, 100%. I love Kelvin. Like, we've been friends for a long time. and he's a great basketball coach, and I think he's a great guy. And he had a chance last year with his Houston team losing to Florida,

where they had a shot to win it at the end that didn't work out. But he's going to keep knocking on the door. He's a finalist for the Naysmith Hall of Fame, and I certainly hope he gets him because he deserves it. Yeah, he's the one that always comes to mind for me. I'd love to see him actually win it all. Is there a coach right now that will have a team in the tournament that you think is, you know, wildly underrated?

Wildly underrated. That you think about all the time. You're like, people have no idea how good a coach this guy is. Oh, how good a coach. Yeah, well, I would say Nate Oates at Alabama, even though he's been to a Final Four a couple years ago, or three years ago, whatever it is. Nate Oates is a savant and, you know, brilliant,

especially on the offensive end with the way they play. They play differently than most teams. And he's got an analytics mind. He was a college statistics teacher. And so he's got a math mind. And the other guy would be at St. Louis, Josh Schurz, who is another guy that, you know, Josh Schurz was a tennis player growing up. He was a nationally ranked junior tennis player.

And I think he realized with his size and stocky-builded and athleticism that he wasn't going to win Wimbledon. And so he turned his attention to basketball. all. And Kevin, I don't know, I don't know Josh personally, but I've admired the way he coaches and the way he teaches and his offensive principles. That guy can coach anywhere and win. I would love to play for him. He's remarkable. All right. You think Michigan's the best team in the country? I do. I think about a month ago, it seemed to me like Arizona and Michigan, we're kind of separating. And Arizona's had a couple injuries. They lost Co-Apeed for a few games to a lower

leg thing. And they've got a guy in their rotation who's out with an illness. So they're down to basically six rotation players that would normally play for them. But Michigan's the best team. And they are ridiculously good. And they're big along the front line. They protect the rim. they rebound at a high level and they've got versatility and depth. They're rolling people over. I mean, they've got 10 games that they've won by 30 or more against really good teams. And I think they've won four or five games by 40 or more against really good teams. Gensaga.

Auburn, early. Yeah. It was Gensaga earlier. Yeah. They're not like rolling Little Sisters of the Poor in a guarantee game in November. You know, they're beating big shots and they're doing it, you know, in Big Tenth, play and all that stuff. It's going to, they're not unbeatable, but it's going to take an incredible effort to beat them.

All right. So who, and I will finish up with this because I want to hear what you think about tomorrow night's game, the matchup with Duke in Michigan. But who are the teams that Michigan would have the most difficult time with when we get to the tournament? I think teams that can match up with them on the front line. So a team like Florida that's got, I think Michigan, and Florida have the two best front lines, the biggest guys that can just really rebound,

block shots, control the lane. I don't think that Florida's guards are quite as good as Michigan's guards, but Florida's guards are getting better. Like, Florida is a team that has been consistently getting better to where they're in the discussion for top five in the country. And I figured that would happen early on, but you weren't sure, but now that you've seen it, like they're the best team in the SEC. But it's going to be hard for anybody to match up with Michigan because they've got so many, they've got so many weapons,

and they've got a player named Yaxel Lendaborg who transferred in from UAB. And Lendaborg, last year there were two players in the country that led their teams in scoring, rebounding, assist steals, and blocks. It was Cooper flagged at Duke and Yaxel Lenderborg. And now that he's in Michigan, he's doing a lot of the same things.

kind of a triple double threat when he steps on the floor. But Michigan's got so many good players that they really are a team that looks like when they play nobody cares who scores and nobody cares who gets the credit. And they've got five guys that average 10 or more, and the leading score averages about 15, that's Lenderborg. They got three guys that average over seven rebounds. And they've got, I think they have four guys that have 60 or more assists. They're the only team in the country that has that.

It's, it's, they are a, I don't want to say they're a juggernaut, but they're pretty darn close to one. So what happens tomorrow night? You know, I think Duke is really good, and they've got the, arguably the best player, the most productive and best player in the country in Cameron Boozer. You know, he's been, Cameron Boozer's worst game. He had 14.5 rebounds and two assists. That's his worst game.

he's to me the national player of the year to this point if another game were not played the problem Duke's going to have is matching up with these are the number one Michigan number two Duke defensive teams in the country both of them can really guard people but the matchups don't really favor Duke like you're going who's going to guard Lendebord who's going to guard who's going to guard like Namari Burnett you know, who's going to guard Mores Johnson Jr. You know, they've got a lot of

match-up decisions they're going to have to make. And I think fouls could be an issue in the game. If anybody gets in foul trouble, I think Michigan can absorb it a little bit better. If somebody gets a picks up some fouls, if a Duke player picks up a like a starter picks up some foul,

that's going to be an issue. You know, one of these years, I'd love it if it were Duke playing Maryland. Not this year. I'm glad it's not this year. But I would love to see that matchup happen in the regular season at some point down the road. You know how our fan base would love it. You guys probably don't care anymore.

But do you think that Shire has the same take on not playing Maryland that Kay did? I hope not because it's not, like, I tend to look at this as it's not the fan base or the players that made the decision. You know, it's the administrators that made the decision. And look, I don't hold any, like, I was heart. broken when Maryland left the ACC, but I'm still heartbroken that the Milwaukee Brewers are in the National League

and the Houston Astros in the American League. That just doesn't sit right with me. But I understand how reality works. And look, when Missouri left the Big 12, Kansas and Missouri wouldn't play each other for a while, I just hope people get over the emotional

part because the games are just too good. And the Maryland Duke rivalry, and look, I attribute this to Gary Williams. Like Gary Williams, one of the greatest coaches that ever walked the planet. And when he took over at Maryland, this is my belief. I've never really

talked to Gary about this, but my belief was he wasn't going to take a backseat to anybody. And while others may have deferred to Duke and North Carolina, he didn't. He's like, we're going after them. And, boy, it made the game great. And so I'd love to see Maryland

Duke and Maryland and North Carolina. It's just so hard with scheduling now because there are more conference games. You've got these multi-team events that you have to play in and the, you know, the ACC, FCC challenge and the Big Ten whatever challenge. There aren't as many opportunities to schedule these games. But I hope there are more games like this Duke, Michigan thing, and where you get non-conference games of a hefty nature that are played in February

rather than playing those things in December when everybody's wrapped up in football. Well, not to mention for Duke, maybe a one seed in the east or two seed in the east. I mean, the East Regional is here in D.C. next month as well. Jay, thanks for doing this. Good to catch up. Really appreciate it. Always my pleasure, Kevin.

Thanks for having me. Jay Billis, everybody. Really appreciate him making time to do that. Tomorrow, college game day, Saturday morning, leading up to a full day of college basketball that will include at 630, Michigan, and Duke in Chinatown. at Capital One Arena. Right now, by the way, Michigan, a two-point favorite over Duke in that game. My bookie's got Michigan minus two.

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He does it for everything commanders related, their YouTube channel, their website. He's got a podcast with Grant Paulson called Take Command. Of course, Logan was a player here from 2010 through 2014, which went across to admit. the Mike Shanahan and then the beginning of the Jay Gruden administration. He played in Chicago, played in San Francisco for Kyle, played in Atlanta. He's a coach at the high school level as an offensive coordinator. It's always good to have Logan Paulson on the show. So I do want to get your thoughts on everything that I think is going to start happening pretty quickly in terms of cuts,

in terms of signing their own free agents before the league calendar begins on March 11th. I want to get your thoughts on free agency itself and whether or not you have some players identified that you think they should go after. But because I haven't had you on in about two months, roughly two months, a lot's happened. I want to start with the coordinator changes and specifically start with, you know, finding out from you why you think the team decided to part ways with Cliff Kingsbury. Yeah, I mean, obviously when it happened and when they were reported starting to come out, I was a little bit surprised because I think, you know, like most people, I was of the mindset that, like, were there things about the offense that I thought could be better? Yes, but I thought I kind of personally chalked it up to, you know, personnel injury, lack of starting quarterback, all those different things. And then, you know, as the reporting continued and it kind of became clear that there was like just a difference in thought about what the offense should look like, it started to make a lot more sense to me. And quite honestly, like, while I think Cliff is extremely talented, I think he's a really bright dude, I do think that, I do think that, you know, like when you look at offenses in the NFL, like the style of offense that David

Blau is reportedly going to be bringing in, I think is kind of the course de jour at the moment in terms of kind of, you know, not necessarily. I know the under center thing is kind of a big talking boy, but to me it's more we're marrying run and pass formations. We're kind of giving the defense more things to think about from condensed splits. We're getting into more bunches. We're shifting the stuff. We're using motion to kind of create easy solutions for the quarterback, and I look at what Ben Johnson does so well, like Kevin O'Connor does so well, and they do such a good job of like using those tools to get the first guy in the read open, which overall, I think,

is a really good thing for Jane Daniels. So I think getting more balanced, getting more of a play action based on first and second down, I think all that stuff in the long term is going to be really good for Jane Daniels development. And again, like I don't want to sound like I'm being critical of Cliff. It just seems like this is the way the league is going at the moment. And I think if you want to, to kind of develop an offensive perspective and identity, like adding a little bit of diversity with some of those things I just mentioned is probably the right course of action.

Is under center as the conversation centerpiece that it is sometimes when it comes to why Cliff's gone, what Dan Quinn wanted, what David Blow is going to bring, is that portion of the conversation a bit overdone? You know, I've pointed out, Logan, that yes, this year, 12 of the 14 playoff teams were in the top half of the league in under center snaps. But all you got to do is go back to 2024 and three out of the final four teams, Washington, Kansas City, and Philadelphia were among the least, you know, undercentered teams in the league.

What are your thoughts on just, you know, under center versus, you know, shotgun pistol, not under center, as kind of the centerpiece so much of the time of this conversation right now as it relates to our offense last year versus what we think we're going to see coming up in 2026. Yeah, and so I agree with you. I think the under-center thing, this is me personally, and I know there are some people that would push back on this. I think that is a kind of, I think that is a little bit of a spurious correlation, the under-center element of those offenses.

Because I think when you look at good offenses in the NFL at the moment, right? When I say like the kind of the style that's taking over, I think about Kyle Shanahan, Ben Johnson, I think about Kevin O'Connell, I think about Matt LaFleurre. I even think about, you know, obviously, you know, Mike McDaniel down in Miami. Obviously, those offenses to me are kind of what I'm talking about. And if you look at all of those five different offenses I just mentioned, all of them use under center and gun and pistol at wildly different rates. like Mike McDaniel is very rarely under center.

That offense still abides by the principles, the general principles, like a Kyle Shanahan offense abides by, which is what you're trying to do is you're trying to marry the formation more than the under center gun element, in my opinion. So what that means is like the best way I could explain it is like, imagine like triple option football. Like you're kind of in the same formation all the time, that old school wingty look, right? You, from that look, you can present three things to the defense, right? You can run the dive, you can run the pitch, you can the quarterback can keep it, right?

That's essentially what you're doing offensively from this tree, is we're going to make all of our formations look approximately the same, and we can run the run, we can run the run, we can run play action, we can run a boot, and we can run dropback passing off of it. There's no formational tell off of it, whether you're in the gun or under center. So that, to me, is more of the defining principle of this offense as opposed to the undercenter element. And so, like, do I expect there to be a higher rate of undercenter with David Blow? Yes, he said as much in this press conference. But to me, when I look at Ben Johnson, again, kind of a derivative of this tree, I kind of say to myself, like, the things that make it hard is the stuff they run out of, they can get play action shots off of. And those play action shots are explosive plays. And when you look at offenses that are high and explosive play rate, they tend to be more successful.

So to me, it's just kind of a, the under-centered thing I think is, again, it's the canary, it's not, it's not the main thing. It's those other elements of those offenses that make them good and make them dynamic. Yeah, that makes total sense to me. And by the way, when you're talking gun, as it relates to kind of making everything look similar and being able to marry, you know, run to pass, and that pass being more often than not play action pass, whether it's a play action in the pocket throw or a play action, you know, quarterback keeper or bootleg. Those snaps typically come, correct to me if I'm wrong,

out of the pistol with the back behind the quarterback, so the quarterback can turn and essentially hide the ball from the defense on a running play or a play action fake. Whereas in shotgun and a backs next to him, a defense never loses sight of the ball. Yeah, that's absolutely correct. And so, like, again, when you look at Miami, who did some of this stuff from the gun, one of the things, one of the features that they brought, which I really liked and makes the gun run play action game work,

is they would have Tua just turn his back to the defense and the back run over top. So you're getting the same benefit, but you've got to be a little bit more creative about how you're getting there. Because think about it, like if I'm under center, my back goes to defense, and the lineback or the defensive line, they have to respect that fake for the time that they can't see the football, right? So when you're in the pistol, same thing. The duration's a little bit shorter. And in the gun, if it's in front, you see the ball the whole time. But if I turn my back, they have to respect the fakes the entire time they can't see the football.

So I just think, like, it makes the fakes slightly more effective. But there are ways you can do it, you know, with different backfield sets and different backfield actions. I just personally think it's a little bit more challenging to get some of that, you know, downhill read action from the linebackers when you're in the gun. because like you said, if you're just running conventional gun play action, but everyone can see the football the entire time, and the duration of the fake is relatively short. Right. But from under center, do you agree with this or not?

And I'm actually trying to think through teams that will run RPO from under center. RPO really isn't an under center, you know, aspect or option. So when you're under center, you don't. do kind of eliminate RPO. I guess you could theoretically run an RPO from under center, but it's obviously much easier in the gun or pistol. Yeah, 100%. So, like, the way I would kind of characterize it in like an RPO

is you've selected a defender that you want to isolate. You're not going to block with the blocking surface, and you're actually reading his reactions as he dropped to the pass or does he fit the run. Based on his reaction, you're going to hand the ball off. You're going to throw the football. Under center, like when I was with Kyle and Schenner, when I was in Chicago when I was in Atlanta,

they would do this thing called a run alert, right? So basically, based on the linebacker's position, pre-snap, I could throw a quick flant to the receiver if I felt like I could fit it in the window, right? So basically,

it's a, like it has the same principles of an RPO, but you're not actually reading the player. You're reading the player's pre-snap alignment. And so you do lose some of those elements, right? But I do think like what you, and again, this is the thing that I think,

is interesting about this offensive conversation. A good offense is going to bring in all these principles all the time, right? So you're going to bring it under center, you're going to bring in gun, you might have some RPO, you might have some zone read, you might have some run alerts, you might have some play action pass, you might have some boots, whatever it looks like, right? And it just presents more variety for the defense to have to prepare for while you still operate in a very similar, very comfortable space. And so I think when I hear David Blow talk about the offense, he's like, yeah, we're going to still incorporate principles that Cliff Broad are going to incorporate, you know, about 20 to 25 percent,

no huddle, we're going to be in the gun a little bit, right? There's still be principles there, but I think the variety that you're showing the defense forces them to prepare for more, right? So I think, like, it's not exclusively under center or in the gun. It's like you're going to do both of those things. And I think that's where some of the conversation gets a little bit skew because, like, I think like you're alluding to it. It's a great point.

Like, there are some things that make being in the gun very advantageous, especially when you have a quarterback like Jane Daniels, but I want the defense to have to think about more things. Sure. For more things. Sure. For more things. And I think that's what you're getting with this offensive shift.

And look, you know, anybody that's watched football can envision, you know, Jaden under center, let's just talk about an under center, you know, where you've been successful on a couple of outside zone or inside zone runs with Rodriguez or Bill Kroski Merritt. And then all of a sudden, you know, after he, you know, stretches. out on what appears to be an outside zone, he's actually got the ball coming back, you know, on a bootleg, and there's just so much space. There's just nobody there. And like when I envision him in that style of offense or specific to those kinds of plays, I mean, I think

it's going to be a perfect fit, and he's going to be such a dangerous quarterback. You know, if, you know, if you're running the football successfully, and everything looks the same. When you pull it, it's going to be really fun to watch him play football that way, don't you think? No, I think that's exactly right. That's one of the things that when you're thinking through what this change means for Jane Daniels. That's like one of the first things that come to mind. First, I think of how well he throws the deep ball and the ability for him to kind of hit on some of these play action shots.

That's going to be fantastic. But also, like, one of the elements of the boot game is it operates in a very similar manner to that of his own read. So basically in its own read, you're isolating the contained defender away from the direction of the run. On a boot, you're doing the same thing. Like the quarterback's going to draw the fake. If that player closes, you can keep that football. And then obviously you'd run a boot here in this case. But I think, like, the principles are going to be the same across the scheme regardless.

It's just about how you're getting there. And I think, you know, David Blow, like astutely alluded to, like, that is something that's going to really speak to his skills. Like, I think about Jake the Slate Snake Plummer when he was in Denver and how. effective he was running off of those boot looks, and Jane Daniels has a very, very similar skill set. Well, the other thing, too, is when you envision a bootleg and that edge player reads it, it can be very disruptive to the quarterback. But, you know, when I think about it, it can be disruptive to Kirk Cousins,

but it's not going to be that disruptive to Jane Daniels because he can obviously, in space, outrun or make that player miss and still get out on the edge and threaten a defense with his arm or legs. Absolutely. And I think the other thing, too, is if they're accounting for him, you know, Jane Daniels in that way where they're leaving that defender to kind of play the quarterback, then the cutback on the outside zone or the mid zone or the tight zone is going to be wide open.

So you have to think, like, because of his running ability, even though he may not be carrying the football, he's affecting the running game in a positive, positive productive way. And so, again, it's just like this cool balance. And I just think it adds more wrinkles and more layers to the formations, to the backfield sets, the defense has to prep for. And, you know, like I think we've seen, you know, you've seen covering this team for such a long time, how some of those like little bunches and motions and under center versus gun can affect the defense

and put you in a positive position offensively. Well, and what you just said is essentially, you know, and you were a part of this team in 2012, whether Robert, you know, kept it or gave it, the fact that he was, presented as a run threat as often as he was made everything else work. I mean, it was, I mean, I don't know how much credit you'd give to the offense or give to Robert's ability to kill a team with his legs. How much credit you'd give Alfred Morris's season to that. But it was a big part of it, wasn't it? Oh, I mean, absolutely. I think that's what I think back to when I think about what this offense could be, right? There's elements of understanding.

center, there's elements of pistol, there's elements of gun. And the whole reason for those different backfields is to put the defense in conflict, right? And so I love that you brought up Alfred and Robert and the way they worked together in the backfield because Alfred was such a great downhill runner that when that defender, that overhang extra defender didn't really close hard and Alfred hit his shoulders square, that guy couldn't make the tackle and that ends up being a six-yard game because you have to account for Robert. And again, the running back is so skilled. So to me, it's going to be really exciting to see where David Blow takes this. There's a lot of construction, a lot of kind of moving parts that need to take place here, but it's going to be, it's going to be,

it has the potential to be very, very cool and very, very fun. All right. So we're all, you know, intrigued at the very least, if not excited about David Blow being the offensive coordinator and elements of Ben Johnson and elements of Kevin O'Connell, which come from Sean McVeigh, which come from, you know, Kyle and Mike and the whole thing. We're excited about that, and we all think it's a really good fit for Jaden. My question to you about David Blow is, the unknown, at least from the outside looking in, is when the spotlight hits and he's in that position of,

you know, I don't know if he'll be on the sideline or in the booth. Do you have an idea of where he'll call plays from? Not yet, no, it'll be interesting to see. Like, maybe as we get more into the opposite, I don't have a better idea. But as of right now, I don't know. But they obviously feel like he is ready to do this, you know, the concepts, the schemes, the teaching, the repetitions, the practice, that's all one thing.

And everybody understands this stuff works in the league. But do you have a hunch on what kind of game day play caller and then after the first set that they're planning on going with how he'll sort of adjust in game? Will he be good at that? Do you have any idea? I have no idea and I think that's the thing that's kind of interesting about it is I don't think anybody has any idea

I don't know if David Blow has an idea of how it's going to go and all I can say is that he has had some really good he's been in some really good environments to learn those skills sets like I think about good young play callers Ben Johnson excellent right

Kevin O'Connell excellent and one of the things that I've learned again in my you know I call play at the high school level it's not so much like the game day adjustments it's like how you prep in the week. And, you know, I think he's seen two people, Ben Johnson and Kevin O'Connell do it at the highest of levels. Like obviously Kevin O'Connell working with Sean, like, no one does it better than Sean, right? And so like it's not, it's not the stuff that you're

putting in, you know, if it's a one o'clock kickoff at 10 o'clock in the morning to kind of put the final touches on a game plan. It's what you did on Tuesday to make sure you're ready to go. And I think about Kyle and what he did and how effective he was as a play caller. And it wasn't like he had this, you know, marvelous, I mean, marvelous game plan. It's how he coached it, how he installed it, and how he understood the defense's reaction to what he was going to present them. And I think that was the thing about him that I learned as a play caller. And I think, hopefully, David Blow has learned that from his two stops and his two influences. It's not so much game day. It's how you prep in the week and how you expect the defense to respond to what you're

presenting. As a play caller, I mean, at the high school level, you don't have, He doesn't have something in his helmet. You're not communicating to him in between plays. So, you know, that's a part of it because Blow has the ability to communicate with Jaden up until 15 seconds left on the play clock. I'm just curious how important that, you know, from 40 to 15 is, you know, on the play clock. Yeah, it depends on the quarterback. Like I remember when I was in San Francisco and Brian Hoyer was the quarterback, Kyle would just say the play.

and he kind of expected Brian to know the adjustments, know the checks, know the read, know what to look at, know what to expect. And then obviously later that year they signed Jimmy Grasolo from New England. And Jimmy learned the offense relatively quickly, but he was kind of like, hey, Kyle, like, I need some reminders in the helmet. And obviously, like, our huddle mechanics became way more important when Jimmy was in there because Kyle needed to talk to him a little bit more. And so I think it just depends on how impactful and how influential you want to be as a coordinator. And again, like what style of game your quarterback wants to play. I think all those factors need to be considered in how you want to approach your time on the mic. Like Sean McBay, for example, like I was with him for a year as a play caller.

He likes to talk a lot. And sometimes the quarterbacks like it, sometimes they don't. Like sometimes you just want to get out there and let it rip and play football. And I think finding that balance can only be helpful. helped by the fact that David Blow had such a good relationship, a pre-existing relationship with Jayden Daniels. That's so interesting. I mean, this is hardly an apples-to-apples comparison.

But sometimes when I've done shows like on live remotes or something and you're talking back to the studio or when I've called games, because I've called a lot of games over the years, I hate it when I'm on the air and somebody's talking in my headset and somebody's trying to give me an... I can't... I have to say, stop doing it. I know where I'm going. I know where this is going.

You're just distracting me. And yet others that I know actually really prefer it. I think that's a great example. And again, like that's something that I've experienced too. Like I don't like a ton of talking when I'm doing like a live thing, right? Because again, I've prepared enough beforehand to know what the answers are. And I think there are quarterbacks that prefer different things, you know, and I think that it's, like, you know, like you know there's people that like having being micromanaged on set.

I think it's the same thing with quarterbacks. I think that's a really good example, actually. I had Kirk Cousins on this show last week, and he was telling me about a specific game. You were not on the team then. It was 2017. They played Seattle. And he said that, he said, Jay Gruden got in his, you know, got in the headset before it was turned off. And he said, I want you to, you know, check to just have Josh Doxie. and go deep, not run the comeback, but go deep. And he said something that it's just occurring to me as we're talking about this, because I did not make a big deal out of it with him at the time.

Maybe I should have. But he said Jay was really good at, you know, looking at the defense, looking what they've, you know, how they've, you know, sub-personnel, how they're lining up and giving me the checks right before it went off. He said, we would all kind of look forward to. Jay's in-game sort of creativity in the moment. So, you know, it's one of those things where I'm sure some guys are really good at it and can kind of really diagnose on the spot and others maybe don't do it as well.

But I would imagine that's a big part of play calling, and maybe not play calling, but sort of post-play calling. Yeah, and I think like that's one of the influences and one of the reasons Sean kind of took that play calling style with him to to L.A. And I think Kevin O'Connell used elements of that at points last year when they were kind of on that quarterback injury carousel or two years ago where they would kind of talk to the quarterback through some of that stuff. And so, yeah, I think, again, there is a, there's an art to that thing quite a bit,

you know, and like I didn't know that story about Jay, and that gets me really fired up. I think that's extremely cool. Jay's a smart dude. But the other thing about Jay is he is, he understands kind of the free-flowing nature of the game. And there's other coordinators are a little bit more rigid. So it'll be interesting to see how David wants to execute that. And I think being a former quarterback might allow him a little bit more flexibility in that regard, like in the way of Jay and how he called those games. Are you excited that maybe a bit of what Brian Flores has done in Minnesota will be a part

of Washington's defense and scheme? Because you and I talked, I remember, we talked after that Minnesota game. I had you on. And you were blown away with how. how difficult it was to figure out what the hell Brian Flores' defense was doing. Yeah, I think it's excellent. I think it's fantastic. I think, you know, like there's two ways defenses are going at the moment. One is just like quarters match, you know, Seattle runs it, Philly runs it, like this Vangio tree of defense. It's kind of in the same way, same way, Kyle Shanhan's offense is sweeping the NFL.

There's this Vic Van Geo defense in sweeping the NFL. I personally feel like you need a lot of horses to run that defense. He's an excellent defensive line, need a very good nickel player, need a shutdown corner. But the one thing that was so impressive about Flores, like the scheme was kind of the mirror, the defensive mirror image of what Kyle Shanahan does. And what I mean by that is he kind of presents the same look to you, and they can do a bunch of different things off of that look. They can drop in a cover two.

They can play quarters. They can play a quarters variation called POMS. They can bring an all-out pressure. They can bring a four-man overload. and I just was thinking like one of the things that I think is so important and so underrated about offensive football in the NFL is the way you cultivate your protection plan. And, you know, usually I like to kind of have an idea of how I would protect certain looks based on the pressures that a team presents.

And I remember leaving that game prep thinking like, I don't know if I have a positive solution to this that I like. And I think that's the brilliance of the scheme. So the idea that there's this scheme that's coming here that dictates to the offense, makes it really hard to kind of pre-snap, get protections targeted, and puts the offensive line in the quarterback and the running back in a really difficult position. I think it's exactly what you want to be doing defensively in 2026, quite honestly. I really think, you know, everyone talks about that quarter's match stuff. Like, I think this is the way to go, man, dictate, send pressure,

find ways to get overloads, encourage variation and variance in offenses, and find ways to get turnovers. again, insulating your personnel at a really high level. So I'm ecstatic. I think it's going to be a lot of fun here. All right. Let's get to some of what you think may happen here in the coming weeks and then once we get to free agency. We'll do that with Logan Paulson right after these words from a few of our sponsors. Hey guys, it's time to start banking much smarter than the way we're doing it. I've been telling you about chime. Chimes changing the way people bank. It's fee-free and smarter banking built for people like us, not the 1%.

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No mean balance required. Chime card on time payment history may have a positive impact on your credit score. Results may vary. See chime.com for details and applicable terms. Logan Paulson is with me. We continue with Logan and now we start to look ahead. And I think we're going to have some busy news days coming up. Logan in the next few weeks, if not few days. They've got a lot to accomplish. They've got players

to release. They are, I'm sure, working on some of their own free agents to keep on the roster before those players get to unrestricted free agency on March 11th. And let's actually start there. Because I know you've done a lot of work on, you know, what they may be looking for once free agency begins off of other rosters. But among their own, and they've got 29 unrestricted and three restricted free agents. Tell me the player that you think should be an absolute priority to keep. The one guy that comes to mind that I think is really important to try and find a way to retain, obviously, is Marcus Marriotto.

I look at him and his skill set and his mentorship and the offenses that he's been in. He's been in offenses like this. When he was with Arthur Smith in Tennessee, or not Arthur Smith, the coordinator was brighter off the Smith, like he, it was an under center, run heavy, play action-based thing that he probably has some, some cliff notes on in terms of technical development for Jane Daniel. So I think that's going to be a huge one. You know, the Devo Samuel thing is interesting to me because I think he did a really good job last year. It just depends on kind of what number he could get in free agency. And then obviously offensively,

Chris Paul is another one. And again, like I was talking to Grant Paulson about this on Take Command for our show that comes out on Monday. And that's a really interesting one to me because I don't know what his market will be because I've seen guards that have been okay make millions and millions of dollars in pre-agency or they just resign for a very team-friendly deal. So those are some names that stick out to me

as people that I would be looking at depending on what the market yields for them in terms of value. Let me give you some names and just say yes or no in terms of your hunch as to whether or not they'll be back. Debo Samuel. I'm going to say, that's a tough one. I'm going to say no, even though I think it'd be cool if it came back. I'm going to say no, though.

Bobby Wagner. Oh, my gosh. Kevin, you're killing me. Let's go. I'm going to say no, even though I think he would be a decent fit for this defense. By the way, keep in mind that Matt LaFleurr, because I was just looking it up, because I remember Arthur Smith, obviously, in Tennessee, but Matt LaFleur was the O.C. In Tennessee for a year.

So Mario da was there for that. You've already said yes to Marioita. What about Zach Ertz? Yeah, man, that's going to be tough because I do think this offense changes pretty dramatically. And I think it actually suits Ben Sinit and John Bates a little bit better. And I think this is a really strong free agent tight-end group. So I'm going to say, as much as it kills me, because I think he had a fantastic run here, I'm going to say no. Trey Berks.

Yeah, I mean, depending on what what his contract value looks like to me if he's willing to come back. And as you know, like dollars and cents matter in these conversations. But if he's coming back to be your number three, a guy with some vertical upside in the offense, I think yes. By the way, if Chris Paul were to get a bigger number than they were comfortable with, do you feel okay with Brandon Coleman just stepping in and taking that spot or not? Yeah, I think Brandon Coleman, when he did play, did a really nice job. I think the interesting conversation about Brandon Coleman is like, is he a better tackle? Like, that's the thing that came out.

It's like when he had a backup Laramie when he was out. Like I thought Brandon did a great job. And he always looked early in the season looked a little out of sorts. Now, he didn't really have an off season. But I think Brandon's a heck of a football player. So I'm more than comfortable with that. It would be interesting to hear conversations in the building about where they think he's at with regards to guard play. Because that would factor in big time for me if they didn't feel like he was

ready. There are other names, but like to me, I know they like Jacob Martin and they're going to try to keep him. I think you feel the same way. Jeremy McNichols, they love, and they'll probably try to bring him back. You know, there are guys like that. Chris Rodriguez is restricted. I would imagine that he's going to be back. But let's get to, because you said that you've been kind of looking at the free agent pool out there. So give me some names that you like as a fit here. Yeah, so the ones on that edge specifically that kind of caught my eye were like aside from Cincinnati number 58, like his ability to kind of inside, outside rush, be an outside linebacker dropping. And like just when you watch the film, like there was a movement attitude to him that I thought really lent itself to like pass rush upside.

Now I don't know if they let him get out of Cincinnati with Hendricks leaving and all that kind of stuff. But he was the guy that I thought, man, like he felt a little bit to me like Dorn's, Armstrong, but like Dorrance Armstrong, you know, like when they signed him, no one was super excited about him. They got him at that three-year, a $30 million deal. They kind of got ahead of the curve there. He feels like a perfect candidate for that. He's young, too. I mean, I've been thinking about this too, and I'm like, I don't see any guys that are entering into their early 30s being part of a big push here, but continue. No, that's kind of my thought there. I think he's like 25 or 26. And then the other one was like Boyer Mafe from Seattle. Like I

thought he did a great job in terms of rushing the pastor. I said this, I'm taking man, like he had like a 13 and a half percent, 14 percent pressure rate. He had over 40 hits this year. He only had three sacks, but it feels like based on those other two metrics, like that he's ready, he's poised for a big year. And again, he kind of fits this flexibility mold that Durante Jones has been talking about quite a bit. So I look at those two guys. They're both young. They're both kind of second contract guys. They're guys that I think you are not going to necessarily break the bank for, and I think they fit your defensive vision at a high level. And again, they would allow you to kind of build some depth there, build some young depth, and maybe

kind of think about different positions at seven if you had to. Who defensively on the roster were potentially coming back on the roster? Do you think may have not been the right fit for the Quinn-Joe Witt Jr. system, but might be a much better fit for the Durante Jones system. Ooh, you know, so this is going to sound funny, but I think Dorrance Armstrong, I don't know if he was a bad fit for the Dan Quinn, you know, system necessarily, but I think he could be a really nice piece here because of the flexibility that he brings, you know, he can drop, he can rush, he can rush inside. Like that, I think, could really bring him to light in a nice way, not that he was playing poorly or anything like that. And I think honestly the two young linebackers, Kay Madrano and Jordan McGee, are really interesting here to me

because of all the stuff that they asked them to do, how much base they played in Minnesota. Like they were in base more than any of the team in the NFL. So do those guys get larger roles? They can cover. They were. They weren't. What percentage were they in base?

I think it was over 60%. I don't remember off the top. So they were in base 3-4, 60% of the time? Yes. like base personnel on the field, yeah. So like, you know, like kind of heavier run-stopping personnel. Sure. They also bounce between like a like a six-one kind of look to, but yes, I think that's kind of what I'm alluding to there.

So does that mean that those guys have larger roles in the defense potentially? So that would be kind of interesting to see that. And then obviously like this is not, not that these guys played badly, but just schematically, I think the two corners, Mike if he stays on the perimeter and Trey Amos, will benefit pretty tremendously from Durante. just because of the simplicity that the back end can play with and how much vision they have on the quarterback. You know, Kane Madrano, the tape when he, when he drafted him out of UCLA, I'm not going to say that he's Andrew Van Ginkle, but that's the kind of anticipation.

Talent sort of he had, he was Feaster Famine. He made a lot of plays because he felt it and sensed it and anticipated it, you know, he got beat a lot too on some of those, but so does Van Ginkle. I wonder if Durante Jones sees another Van Ginkle and Medrano. Yeah, I think that's a really good point because, again, the way you articulated that, I think it's really astute because he did play, he played the star linebacker spot at you say, so basically like a pseudo safety, but he also played on ball. And so, like, he did some stuff where he's like, you know, set in the edge, he's like running

and down screens. He can drop into zones. And again, that flexibility is what I think of when I think of Van Ginkle. Now, Van Ginkle is much larger. He's like 6-5. I think he's 2.45. Yeah, he's taller. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. But so it'll be interesting to see if Madrano has enough strength and weight to kind of play that role, that edge-setting role in this defense. But I had a very similar thought when I was thinking about Van Ginkle and Madrano and usage at the college level, at least. You mentioned a couple of defensive players in free agency. What about offensive players?

Yeah, so I think there was like obviously running back by Tyler Alger is a guy that jumps to the forefront to me. I just think about what Ben Johnson did with Gibbs and Montgomery there and kind of how they had this thunder and lightning combination. And I've always been a huge fan. Actually, I remember the first time I was turned on in Alger, I was doing a hit on your show and you brought him up. I went and watched film of them and I was like, this dude's a stud. He's been great in the NFL. He's a hard downhill runner, stays square, very physical, gets him more than it's blocked for. So I think he's great.

And again, I think a lot of people think Bruce Hall here, to me, I think that's going to cost maybe too much money. So like those role playing running backs that have some youth, don't have a lot of miles on the leg, like I think Tyler Alger is perfect. I think from the tight end position, like, man, pick a name. Like I like all of them. Like everyone's going to mention Kyle Pitts, and I think they should. but also like I say I like Lee is really interesting and Joku's interesting and I think maybe the most interesting to me is Chig Oconquo from Tennessee. He's my guy. Terp.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Love that. And just his ability to create explosive plays in this offense and find mismatches. I think those two position groups are really fascinating.

I know people want to talk about receiver. I don't know if I see a strong role like the guy for me that I would probably kind of zero in on as Jennings from San Francisco because I think he's extremely solid. I think he's a pro. I think he gives you some of that size and physicality. You can bring him in, maybe Reynolds from Detroit because there's some familiarity with Lowe there, but like that bigger body physical kind of big slot type guy, I think it's the direction I would go as opposed to breaking the bank on like an Alex Pierce type signing. I love a con quo. I thought he was a very good player coming out. He has not played with a quarterback, you know, in Tennessee. Right. And so I think.

And he's certainly not going to be in the price range of a pits or, you know, even a likely. What would you do about Brandon Ayuk? So, yeah. I mean, all the hard-hitting questions here, Kevin. So, like, for me, I'd probably look into it. But I am very risk-averse. And right now there seems to be a lot of risk associated with this. And I don't, I just have what's being reported.

I know Adam Peterson, this front office, are going to get way more information. So if there's mitigating circumstances and Brandon's got a good reason for voiding his contract the way he did, I would be very reluctant, but also, like, there's another example of, like, where dollars and cents matters. Like, if you're going to get a guy who was a top five receiver two years ago, you know, on a five-year, on like a two-year, $10 million deal, like, that's something that I would definitely kick the tires on and see if he still wants to play football in the NFL. You know, in mentioning Tyler Alger and thinking of sort of, you know, the Gibbs Montgomery tandem, you know, obviously you're talking about Kroski Merritt being Gibbs. I don't think he's Gibbs necessarily. But yeah, but stylistically, you know, the other guy that would actually fit in sort of the Montgomery role would be Rico Dowdell, too. I've been so impressed with him. And, you know, they ended up paying Hubbard in Carolina. and they brought Dowdell in last year, and he was outstanding, and here he is and unrestricted again,

that would be interesting. But it sounds like you think they might try to sign a back and a tight end in free agency. I mean, I think that's one of the things with having a little bit of extra money floating around. And again, I don't think you can go and spend max contract at any position. But I do think that, like, there are some talented pieces here that look like they're going to be able to be got at a very favorable number. So, like, for me, I'm like, yeah, let's go, let's go explore those avenues and get a little bit more dynamic, a little bit more explosive, a little bit more experience on that side of the football,

while also getting younger, which I think is going to be a big part of this free agency period, I would assume anyway. Is there a position, it seems like they need everything on defense, but is there a position on this team that you think is a sneaky need that maybe fans wouldn't assume? is a need. Yeah, I mean, defensively, that's tough because I kind of feel like everything is a need, so nothing is sneaky about that necessarily. I think this is going to sound weird, and this is like my offensive bias coming through.

I think that left guard spot, because Chris Paul is no longer on the roster, that could be a really sneaky need for the team depending on how we talked about it already, how they view Brandon Coleman in his role with the team moving forward. Like, obviously, I think he did a great job kind of in that swing tackle role, but do you think he could be your full-time starter? Do you need to re-sign Chris Paul? Or do you feel like you need to upgrade there? Because everyone talks about adding offensive playmakers to the offense to support Jane Daniels.

But to me, you're like one piece away from having the best offensive line in football. And is that something you want to pursue here? So that's something that I've been thinking about for like the last 48 hours. Is that something that this team is going to look at whether in free agency or in the draft? You know, I don't think anything on defense is sneaky, but if there's one area that's sneaky, it would be defensive tackle, especially if they are in base a lot, and you've got a zero technique if you've got an actual nose tackle. And I actually have been thinking about this.

Like, Eddie Goldman played more nose tackle snaps than anybody in the roster last year defensively, and he didn't play a lot of snaps. And he's, I mean, I don't know, maybe they'll bring him back. but I was thinking about if they do have a nose tackle in their base and they're in it a lot, who's going to play nose tackle on the team right now? Yeah, I think that's a really good question because they don't really have a body type for that. You know, like obviously Kinlaugh and Payne and Jerson are both kind of four-eye five techniques. So I think that's a really good point.

I haven't really thought about that, especially if they're in the odd front quite a bit. And again, they, you know, Dronte Jones did a good job. We're kind of saying we can get in four-down spacing and stem or stunt to a three-four spacing or just space the front differently with our personnel. So maybe they do something like that. But I do think that they're getting a piece there. Like you said, Goldman might be kind of a sneaky re-sign or finding a guy in the fifth, sixth, or seventh round that could play noseguard. Might not be a bad solution for this team moving forward, especially if that's what they're going to be from a defensive identity standpoint.

All right. Last one, because you typically do a lot of draft prep, and we're still, you know, a couple of months away, so hopefully I'll have you back on before the draft. But is there somebody that you're really hoping is there at seven and they take? Oh my gosh, man. This has kind of been fun for me because there's not like these blue chip guys. So you kind of get to familiarize yourself with about 10 different players that you think could be there at seven. And for me, like, it comes down to four. names. It comes down to Caleb Downs, Arvel Reese, David Bailey, and I'm forgetting the other one at the moment. Oh, Sunny. Stiles. Really? Okay. Yeah. And I think those three, those four guys, like when I cut the tape on of them, I'm like, these guys are absolute studs. And I can take it, it's probably four or five weeks to come around Arvall Reese, but I think based on what Durante Jones did and has done, like when in Minnesota, like that fits seems like it was. would be perfect. So of those four guys, like, I don't think you can go wrong. And I think,

honestly, Jeremy, I would throw on that book as well. I think I might have said them already. But those four guys, I think I would be happy, and I don't think you can go wrong in terms of how good I think those players are. Between Reese and Bailey, just which one do you think is ultimately, maybe it's both. But if you had to pick one, which is the one that really would keep offensive coordinators up at night before they played us? Yeah, I think this, so this is more of like a draft philosophy question, in my opinion, because you've got David Bailey who is, was excellent last year. I mean, you know, led the nation in pressures, led the nation in sacks, or led the FBS in sacks,

excuse me. And really, it's just a stick of dynamite when you cut the tape on. And so as a watching, I would think defensive coordinators would be kept up by him. And when you look at R. Bel-Reece, you're really kind of saying there's a mystery box there. Like he's got the movement skills, he's got the strength, he's got the length, he's got the instincts. He just didn't do

it a ton. I think he had under, I think it was like under 75 pass rush snaps last year, something crazy like that. So you're projecting him to kind of move the full-time defensive end. He didn't get a ton of off ball linebacker work. And so it's like what is he actually at the next level? But the athlete is something

that could be really special. Like people are saying, oh, he's the next Michael Parsons. He's the next Jalen Walker. Like and all those guys are projections. And so to me, I think I would probably go with a guy that did it at a high level in college from a pass rush perspective, but I could easily see R. Bell Reese kind of figuring it out and being this explosive dynamic weapon for a defense, again, getting in the right system with the right coach. Logan Paulson, everybody.

Logan is certainly on Instagram at Logan underscore Paulson, 82. all of the stuff that he does on the commander's website, on the commander's YouTube channel. He has that podcast with Grant called Take Command. I always love having you on the show, and hopefully we get a chance to do it before the draft. Thanks. Yeah, that'd be great, man. Always enjoy coming on, Kevin. It's always a blast.

Thank you. Logan's so good. Really love having him on the show. All right, that'll do it for today, back on Monday.