The Kevin Sheehan Show - Jay Gruden

Episode Date: February 13, 2021

The podcast today is just Kevin and Jay Gruden. They covered a lot including what he promised Dan and Bruce about RG3 when he got hired, to the Kirk saga, to entertaining stories about coaching Pierre Garcon and DeSean Jackson. What were his favorite moments in DC? What was his best coached game in DC? What happened with Haskins, DJ Swearinger and a lot more including his thoughts on Ron Rivera and what Washington should do at quarterback.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

A special weekend version of the podcast coming up, and my guest will be former Washington football coach, Jay Gruden. We'll do about an hour plus with Jay. Today's podcast sponsored by MyBooky. Go to MyBooky.orgie. Use my promo code, Kevin D.C., they'll match your deposit halfway up to $1,000. They've got great college basketball, NBA, NHL games going on, lots of props, lots of in-game opportunities, these contests. They've got a live casino at MyBooky. It's a place you can trust. Fair lines, fair money lines, fair pricing. You get paid if you win. MyBooky at mybooky.orgie.com.

Use my promo code Kevin DC. They'll match your deposit halfway up to $1,000. You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Sheehan Show. Here's Kevin. Redskins frailing the Buccaneers by six. Redskins have never come back to win after trailing by more than 21. Redskins now faced third and goal from the Tampa Bay 6. Four receivers went to the left, the tight end Reed to the right. Pouss it on third down looking for me. And that was the end of the famous Jay Gruden Code Red game.

That game was must win for the team. And after falling behind 24-0 to Tampa Bay at home in October. October of 2015. The team roared back, won the game 31 to 30, and eventually won the division and made the playoffs that year. Jay Gruden is my guest today on the podcast, and we'll get Jay to all the pleasantries of how you're doing and what you're doing and where your handicap is at this point. But what do you remember about that game? I remember it was a must win for us. Without a doubt, as Code Red kind of got blown out a little bit, but for me, I think it was a must one. I think I was about to get canned if we didn't win that

game. They just hired Scott McLuhan. We just hired Scott McClewine, I think, but coming and do the dirty work, but fortunately, we ended up winning that game and turning our season around. Kirk ended up playing great and got us to the playoffs, and unfortunately, we lost in the first round. Do you really think that, I mean, you would have fallen to two and five, and if I remember correctly, the next week was a bye week followed by the Patriots. Did you think you would lose your job? That was year two. Would you have lost your job if you had lost that game? I had some friends in the media that heard that through the run off of some of the, you know, there were some leaks in that front office somewhere,

and they had leaked it out that I was going to possibly lose my chop if we had lost that game, because we did have a by week after that. So I was prepared one way or the other, but we came up and won that game and ended up finishing really strong. Yeah, you really did. And, you know, it's interesting, too, because if Kirk doesn't play well in that game and bring you back, I wonder if he ever gets another opportunity again. I mean, I'm sure, you know, Kyle or or someone would have given him a chance, but he may have been benched and not gotten an opportunity

for the next couple of years as well. Do you think that's possible if you don't come back and win that game? It could have been possible, but Kirk was a good player, and I think, you know, the emergency tie on what he was doing in Atlanta and getting obviously a head job. I think you're right. I think he thought high enough of him. He would have brought him somewhere.

And there's some other people that came and went on that staff that went other places that know the talent that Kirk had and would have given him an opportunity. All right. Well, there's more to do on Kirk, and I'll get there in a moment. But how are you doing? I mean, you had a team this year that actually, you know, it was one in 15, but I watched enough of the games to know that there were a lot of close games and a lot of winnable games.

You had a couple of really good players. I mean, that James Robinson sort of came out of nowhere. How are you doing? What was this past year like, and what are you going to do next? Hey, I'm going to go good. Down here in Jacksonville, enjoying the weather, working on the golf team. now. I'm talking to a couple outlets as far as maybe trying my hand in the studio or maybe doing

some colored, color games as a color guy. So we'll see what happens there. I know it takes a lot of work, and it's easier on the couch to say, hey, I could do that than actually have to go interview and get the job. So it's a long way to go. But entertaining those options right there. Other than that, not doing a whole lot. Just trying to play some golf.

But, you know, this year was fun. You know, in Jacksonville, just because the Zoom meeting will miss. stuff. You know, we had a couple of outbreaks with the COVID, and so we were, I don't know what you call it, Code 2 or whatever it was, we were dangerous. So we had to meet via Zoom all the time, and the players just came into practice,

and then they'd leave, and we had to meet during the Zoom again. It's kind of pain in the neck, are more of a hands-on-type coat. But we did have some young talented players, unfortunately, with the lack of preparation as far as OTAs and really training camp and all that stuff was kind of topped down a little bit.

young players need to work and they've got a chance to be pretty good, pretty fast. You know, they get some draft picks and some free agents. They got a good nucleus here. You know, I actually, I think you'd be really good doing games because, first of all, and we always felt this way. I think many of us in the media felt this way. You were easy to talk to. You had a great sense of humor, a quick sense of humor, and that translates. You know, I did hear you say on Ben's, Handix podcast last week that you're not overly impressed with Tony Romo. And it's funny because I think he had one of the worst calls of a game that he's had in a long time in the Super Bowl.

But is there somebody out there that you've listened to and watched maybe a former coach or a broadcaster that you look at and you think, you know what, I can do that and I can be as good as he is? You know, obviously my brother did it for seven, eight years and I thought he did a pretty good job. and I listen to most of his games, or tried to anyway. So that's a good guy to learn from. I'm always like Troy Aikman, actually. I think he does a pretty good job. You know, he's, he doesn't go over the top as far as trying to break down the game,

but he's, I think he does a pretty good job, him and Joe Buck. So those two guys I pretty much listen to a lot. Collinsworth, I think, is okay. You know, I try not to listen to the games a lot just because they annoy me so bad. but I think if Con was worth, Troy Aitman, my brother would probably be the three. Would you ever go back after a game and watch the broadcast of a game? The only time I'd do that is to see what we had on tape as far as communication goes. Like if they got any audibles, the defense could get any audibles or hand signals.

But never to listen to the announcers, no. Well, your brother was, he wasn't good. He was great at it. And obviously, it's a subjective. thing. I'm just curious because he's just finished year three of being back in coaching. How often do you talk to him? Do you ever think he feels like shit? It was a lot easier to be in a booth than trying to rebuild a franchise. Yeah, I'm sure he feels that way. But he loves coaching. He didn't really want to get out of it when he did get out of it. He's kind of forced out of

it. But I know he loves coaching. He loves Derek Carr. He loves a Raider organization. Being in Vegas. I think he's going to really enjoy that. But, you know, there's some part of the announcing and stuff that I think he misses, but he does love coaching, that's for sure. All right. Let's get to some of the stuff that I'm interested in, and I think a lot of the listeners are interested in. And that is, you know, about the time you were here. And I want to go through some of it chronologically. When you took this job back in 2014, you know, the feeling I think a lot of us had at the time, given the Robert Griffin the third situation and the owner, you know, essentially all in on RG3. And so was the fan base, by the way, after his rookie year, he was sensational. But did you have to make Dan and or Bruce

comfortable that you were the guy to get the most out of RG3? A little bit. I think, you know, the success we had at Cincinnati with Andy Dalton, I think, you know, I think opened some people's eyes and got me that opportunity, you know, to work with Robert. And I think, you know, I had some, obviously, some work with Bruce in Tampa Bay. So I had Bruce knew me in Tampa and obviously from my brother and all that stuff. So there was some common ground there. But yeah, you know, I felt good about working with Robert. And I thought he had some good ability and I was excited about the challenge to work with him.

How quickly before you realized it was going to be a much bigger challenge than you thought it would be? Yeah, pretty quick, really. probably training camp when the Patriots came and we practiced against the Patriots kind of where it was quite evident we had a long, long way to go. I mean, a long way to go. So that's probably where we realize that we have to issue some challenges at different positions. What was it specifically about, you know, early on, and I remember being in Richmond when the Patriots were there. What was it specifically that made you think, uh-oh, this is going to. to be a much bigger challenge to turn him into, you know, a capable NFL quarterback.

Well, when you watch him against Tom Brady, you watch Tom Brady just carve us up period after period after period. Right. And then we can't complete a pass, you know, it was a little bit discouraging, you know, in a practice setting. So, you know, it was just tough all across the board. From a team standpoint, not just a quarterback standpoint. We realize we had a long way to go.

But, you know, from a quarterback standpoint, I think Robert was. trying to transition a little bit too fast in his mind from the running zone read type quarterback to I can be Tom Brady or Aaron Rogers in the blink of an eye type quarterback. And that is a process that he was not quite ready for at that time. You know, the game that I would guess is one of your favorite games, even though it came in your first season, which was a losing season, was that Monday night game, you guys were a 10-point underdog at Dallas. Colt McCoy started the game, had a phenomenal game. You guys pulled off the upset in overtime 20 to 17. And then the next week was the first

week that Robert was back and able to play. How badly did you want to keep going with Colt McCoy a quarterback? Yeah, that's a great point. I really did want to go back to stick with Colt. However, in fairness to Robert, you know, I thought for this team's future, we had to figure out where we were with Robert and see if he could come back and show us that he could be the quarterback that we hoped he would be. So yeah, I think after that win, we would have loved to stuck with Colt. But Robert, after what he did his rookie season, hadn't played very well, but we still needed to see more from Robert in fairness to get a better evaluation of him moving forward. And you did get an evaluation of him. And it didn't, it wasn't pretty the rest of the way. I remember that first of

game in Minnesota. He played okay. You guys nearly pulled it off. And then it got ugly, you know, against Tampa, in particular at home. And towards the end of that year, Jay, I'll never forget this, because I talked a lot about your comments and a story with Albert Breer, NFL.com, where you were incredibly critical of Robert publicly in that story. It was really, it seemed as if to me and others that frustration had really come through. there at the end of the year. How frustrating was it? Well, there was one instance where I was critical. I was trying to be my whole time. They were never critical of the players at a press conference or anything like that. I mentioned that that was my biggest mistake was being critical of Robert

at that time. After one of those games we were shut out, I think it was against Tampa Bay. His press conference kind of rubbed the players wrong way because he said that Aaron Rogers doesn't perform well if the team doesn't perform well around him. And he was kind of throwing his teammates. I felt like he was thrown his teammates under the bus. So I just made it publicly clear that, hey, he needs to worry about himself and fix himself before he starts talking about what his teammates need to do. So it kind of got into a mistranslation of what I thought Robert said.

And then I kind of went over the top because I was really in a ticked off mood that week. So it was a tough week. I learned a lot from that. and, you know, I apologize many, many times, and, you know, but that one passed me. You know what was interesting is early this year, Ron Rivera, when he benched Dwayne Haskins, was very critical publicly of Dwayne. He said, you know, I've got 52 other guys that are looking at me like, what are you doing

here? And that was pretty critical, you know, a public criticism of the quarterback as well. And, you know, what you just said, and I remember back then, and I remember this year, And I remember talking to Mike about some of the frustrations with Robert and he said, you have the rest of the team. The rest of the team knows and you can't fool them. And you have to make sure you're playing the best players. That's true, isn't it?

Oh, for sure. Yeah. Yeah, I can remember when we actually made a move one of the players coming up and saying, thank you for making the move. So it was a tough deal all over around. And I think we all wanted Robert to succeed, but based on his ability at that time, and his ability to transfer from a running quarterback to a true dropback quarterback that he wanted to be, was just a little bit too much to ask for.

You know, he's still working towards that right now at Baltimore, and, you know, he's still never too late to learn something new. He's still working towards it. But at that time, he wasn't quite ready to make that transition. They actually released him in Baltimore a couple of weeks ago. Oh, I didn't even know that. Sorry to hear that. Yeah.

All right. So the next year, you know, 2015, it's late in the preseason. And this was a jaw-dropping moment from you in a press conference. When you dropped on everybody that Kirk wasn't just going to be the starter in an upcoming preseason game, he was going to be your starter for the whole season. You said for 2016, or for 2015, excuse me, was it hard for you to make that decision and how did the owner take it? Take us back to that decision in that moment and how it went down with Bruce Dan, etc.

Yeah, it actually went fairly well. I would have not been able to make that announcement without their support as well. And I think anybody who had been at practice or been at OTAs and men at meetings, all that could see that it was evident that Kirk was the better player and gave us the best chance to win. And that's at the end of the day, that's what it's all about. The team sees it. The coaches see it. And the ownership finally began to see it as well.

So we're all on the same page there, so it wasn't difficult at all. Kirk was by far the better quarterback in practice and preseason, so it was an easy choice for us. And Dan was okay with it in that moment. He was, actually. All right, so everybody's on board with Kirk Cousins being the starter in 2015, including the owner. Let's get to that season.

We talked about the Code Red game, but let's talk about that playoff game against Green Bay. We'll get to that right after this word from one of our sponsors. So, you know, we talked about the Code Red game. You guys come back, you end up winning the division. And you had this playoff game at home against Green Bay. And, you know, the final score, people will look back on it and say, oh, they got blown out. But I remember it differently, and I'm curious how you remember it.

You guys had an 11-to-nothing lead in that game, and it should have been bigger. Deshaun caught a pass, went out on the one-yard line when he could have easily scored. That led to a field goal. Hopkins missed an extra. point on a touchdown. You guys dominated that first quarter. Should have been up 17-0. Do you ever think about the chance you had early in that game to maybe put yourself in a better position to win? We had so many chances. It was ridiculous. I mean, Deshawn just stretches the ball out. And then we have first and go at the one foot line. We can't get a half a yard.

We have to kick a field. But we did miss the extra point. And I can remember that Aaron Rogers, we were crushing them. And the first down they got was on his, we were late to sub off the field. You got a free first down and they ended up scoring on it. I remember going crazy because we worked on that so much during practice. Do not sub if they don't sub. You know what I mean? I don't care if it's second and one that turns into third and 20.

We're not going to nickel if they are in base and they don't sub. You got to keep your base on the field. Sure enough, one of our fat asses run out on the field slow. and Aaron snaps it, they get a free first down. I just lost my mind. And then they end up making a great comeback, and we couldn't get anything going. But yeah, you're right.

Early in the game, we could have ended it. We could have been up 21, at least 21 than nothing early. I think it was Ricky John Francois. I think it was, if my memory serves me correctly. Was it? Yeah, I don't remember. I just remember losing my mind. I mean, it's something like that is hard to recover from

because that's the one thing that we cannot do. is substitute against Aaron Rogers if they're not subbing, you know, because if they sub, the referee will wait for you to sub. But if they don't, I mean, I just bring it up a great memory. I just pulled, I just pulled up the play-by-play. They went four and out, punt, three-and-out,

it was safety second drive, punt third drive, and your punt-forth drive, and then that drive, it's 11 to nothing, and it's third down and four, and it was the 12 men on the field, and that really sparked them. I remember it the same way.

I think anybody that just thinks about that playoff game, they look at the final score of 35 to 18, but you guys actually had a chance early to create a real distance between yourselves and the Packers, but whatever. It didn't work out. And so, you know, you get into that next, you know, that next off season. And, you know, Scott McLuhan has told me before that he was very,

very much in favor, went to Dan and Bruce late in the 2015 season, that your playoff season, and said, we've got to be aggressive, we've got to get cousins signed now, while it's still relatively inexpensive to do it. You don't want to start that path of the franchise tag. You know, what do you remember about the opportunity after that year for the team to lock Kirk up on a long-term deal? Yeah, there was, we thought we had a chance to do it, but I think it was unrealistic for Scott to think that we could get them for cheap, you know, a reasonably cheap deal. Kirk knew that he had played well and it was a young quarterback and I knew that he had some leverage and it was gaining leverage with every snap that he took. Scott thought he was more

of a marginal type quarterback. It's above average type quarterback. We could get him for above average salary. Kirk kind of got wind of that and that's kind of where the disconnect came. not to mention Kirk always felt like he was second fiddle to Robert and always had a little bit of a grudge in that regard, I think. So it was going to be a lot tougher to sign Kirk than what Scott led on to make it believe, I thought. What was your relationship in the moment with Kirk? So Scott thinks he can get him on the cheap. And, you know, I remember, you know, the money at the time, if it had been a moderate offerer, decently aggressive offer, it may have happened.

Were you pushing for it? Of course, yes. I wanted Kirk. I just know that in the NFL, it's hard to win without a quarterback. I mean, it really is hard to win without a quarterback or one that you feel like can get better and better and lead your team. So I did want to sign them, but unfortunately, we didn't get it done, obviously. That next year, Jay, the offense was rolling. I mean, you guys were top three to top five in almost every offensive category imaginable.

The defense was dreadful that year. Hopkins missed some big kicks, that kick in London, that he missed. You know, did you, I'm curious about that year and what you thought about that year. If you were good enough with just a slightly better defense to really make some hay. And did you ever give serious consideration to bring a. in a guy with, you know, more defensive coordinator experience, like a Wade Phillips as an example. Yeah, I know that

I did interview Wade and I became public. It wasn't a very good interview, whatever. But really, when I first got the job with the Reds or the Washington football team, the biggest need we had to address other than the quarterback and making

sure Robert was a good player or not or figuring that out was the defense. The defense was really getting old. It was slow and not very talented. So I don't care who the defensive coordinator was going to come in. It didn't matter. We weren't good enough personnel-wise. And that's why every draft, you know, we try to get Jonathan Allen, Dr.on Payne, sweat, we're addressing the linebacker. We're trying to do the best we can at a free agency to get players in here to help with the depth and the skill of our defense. You know, we're desperate to get a corner. We had to sign

Josh Norman. You know, so safety. you know, we had no safety. So it was a brutal defense from a personnel from a depth standpoint. So we just had to live through it until we got better from drafting and got better from free agency, quite frankly. But you're right, we could have done a better job with the defense coordinator, possibly. But I just thought it was more about the players than the coaches at that time. We just had to get better.

We just weren't good enough. Of the offenses that you've either coached as a head coach or as an OC, Was that the best offensive team you've coached? I think so, yes. You know, when Jordan Reed's healthy, it starts there. He's dynamic inside, you know, working on linebackers and safeties. And obviously we had the speed with Deshawn and the physicality with Pierre. Jameson Crowder was awesome in the slot.

So we had weapons from the inside out, and Kirk was distributing the ball very well. And our offense line was playing better. So, yeah, I'd say for sure, Chris Thompson was playing great on the third down role. So it was good balance, good all-around team from top to bottom on offense. At the end of that year, it got, you know, a little bit ugly. The franchise tag path had started. The team offered a deal that ultimately was $30 million short of what Minnesota would offer nine months later. What was your feeling in that offseason after 2016?

You had the very disappointing, you know, January one game against the Giants for a second straight playoff. appearance. What were you pushing for in that off season when it came to Kirk? Well, I wanted to get something for him if we were going to lose him. If he didn't want to come back, then we had to get something for him because the iron was hot. You know what I mean? We can't just let him go. And I can remember Dan saying, Jay, have you ever seen me lose a guy because of money? I said, this is different. You're going to lose this guy. We have to get something for him. I don't want to walk out and just get a conditional pick for him as a free agent. and we end up getting conditional third round pick.

And that's it. And we could have got a lot, lot more from a couple different teams. I know that for a fact. And I think that's one of the biggest mistakes we made as an organization is not maximizing what we could get for a franchise-type quarterback. I couldn't agree with you more. I was frustrated at the time because I was a big cousin's guy, but I knew the money was going to be well short.

The offer that Bruce and Dan made, they did lose ultimately on money. And then again, maybe at that point he wasn't coming back anyway. But the offer was 30 million, almost 40 million short of the Jets offer, as it turns out. Do you think if Bruce and Dan had gone to Kirk and offered him the kind of money that his agent knew he would get at the end of that season that he would have stayed or not? I don't think he was coming back. I think there was some damage done between Bruce and Dan and Kirk's agent and Kirk and Scott. maybe even me. I don't even know. But I just got a feeling just with Kirk that he was leaving for sure.

And I think there were some bad blood between Kirk and maybe some of the players on Pierre and Deshaun. And they gave him a hard time a lot in a huddle because both of them were very wanted the ball a lot. You know what I mean? And I think he had got grown tired of that as well. I think he needed a fresh start in his mind and it was going to leave no matter what. I thought the 2017 team had a chance to be very good. You guys had drafted John Allen. You had improved a little bit defensively.

Early in that year, Jay, you guys beat the Rams, and we didn't even know how good the Rams would ultimately end up being that year, because that was week two. You crushed the Raiders, and you had the Chiefs, you know, in a really good game on a Monday night. If Josh Doxon catches that pass in the end zone, you probably win. And then the injuries started. The offensive line was a mess.

The D-line was a mess. The corners went down. Eventually Chris Thompson went down. But I thought healthy that that 2017 team was a better defensive team and would have been a playoff team had you not been decimated. Did you feel the same way? I agree. We were decimated.

I can remember that's the year I think we went to Seattle, right? Yeah, with four different offensive line. I don't even know who played on the offensive line other than Morgan Moses, I think, was the only one that played that we had so many guys. in and out playing offensive line. I thought that was actually one of Kirk's best games. I mean, he just got the heck kicked out of him. He stood back there and had a big throw

to quick on the right side and a big one to Josh Dox and we ended winning at Seattle. I couldn't believe it. But yeah, I thought a healthy team that year, we could have contended in a big way. You know, that Seattle game was amazing because I remember doing the pregame show and

people were talking about basically offensive linemen had arrived on Saturday almost. and they were introducing themselves to people in the locker room. And, you know, if I recall the next week you had a shootout against Minnesota that was winnable, and then you had the Saints in the Super Dome pretty much done. And Thompson broke his leg, and I thought that that injury was, and that comeback by New Orleans and the way that game ended, pretty much ended the season.

But I thought if you won it, you still had a shot. That game was crushing. What do you remember about that game? I remember that they scored 15 points in about two and a half minutes. Right. Our safety came in off the bench and didn't carry verticals. And they hit a seam ball to the tight end wide open. I'm like, God, oh, my, this is ridiculous.

And I remember we got the ball tied up before overtime or in overtime. We had a chance in Kirk instead of spiking the ball, threw it out of bounds. We had a run called. It was a cover zero. And I was yelling, hand signal the bubble screen, which is the receiver block. and a other receiver running a bubble screen. And they did not get it. So he threw it out of bounds.

We got intentional ground him. And that crushed us. We got up losing that. Well, yeah, it was a tough game. That was a good game. But Drew Brees showed his magic. And we did not finish. Yeah, because you were in field goal range, if I recall, before he messed that up.

Right around the 40. Yeah, we were close. Yeah. Yeah, Crowder just caught a big player. I ran out of bounds, I think, right around the 40. Yeah. And I thought if we ran the ball, like a nice little one-back power play right in there and get, you know,

we could clock it and kick the field goal and get back out of there with a huge win. End up bringing everybody at the line of scrimmage and Kirk threw it away, threw it out of bounds instead of spiking it. Yeah, it was a mess and the whole thing ended poorly. And Thompson broke his leg in that game and he had become such a weapon. And then obviously the rest of the season went south. And then, you know, Alex Smith is brought in. via trade in the offseason after, you know, you guys were in need of a quarterback.

You know, the bottom line, I'm curious as to what you thought. You know, I've heard you speak about Alex Smith and his toughness and his leadership, and I think everybody really understands that more than ever after watching him this year. Did you, though, want in the moment that trade, or was there another direction you would have preferred? I did not know anything about the trade or it's even possibility of happening until I got a call and was told that we traded for Alex Smith. So we didn't even talk about it. We didn't even grade them or anything. But I've always liked Alex and Alex has been a solid quarterback, a great person, obviously.

But I would have rather got him for free, which I think we could have done. They would have had to release him. I think Coach Reed did an outstanding job of getting what he could get. He got a third round pick and Kendall Fuller, which was quite amazing. And we picked up his salaries. So it was a win, win, win, win for Andy Reed and a LL for us, other than getting Alex, which I think we could have possibly gotten for free. Who knows?

But I was glad we got a quarterback. We obviously needed one in Alex with his experience. And I thought the way we were starting to build our defense, he was a type of quarterback that would be good for us, a guy that could manage a game, not turn to ball, all over. We can play good defense and win a lot of games, and that proved to be the case in the first nine games of that season. Why weren't you consulted on that? I have no idea. I mean, I'm not the owner. I mean, I don't know. Yeah, but it's a quarterback, right? And it's... Yeah, I never was. You know, Robert was our quarterback. Then I had to, you know, make that change because just, you know,

everybody could see Kirk was better. And then, you know, Alex Smith, I wasn't really involved in. And obviously the last one I wasn't involved in. Would you have been okay going into that season with Colt McCoy as your starter? Colt was come. Yeah, we had Colt, possibly, yes. I think we still would have to draft one or find another one to come in and compete and see where we were. And then, you know, if it didn't work out, then I think the draft that year was going to be pretty good. we had a chance to draft one the following year.

But the ability to get an experienced guy like Alex, I think instantly puts you back in the playoff contention. But I did like Colt. Unfortunately, he just kept getting hurt. Was there a quarterback, you know, that offseason when you weren't consulted on Alex or even prior to 2019, and we'll get to the Dwayne stuff here in a moment?

Was there a quarterback that you ever said, let's go get him, whether it was via the draft or trade or free agency? Well, via the draft, you can't really do that. Let's go get him unless you trade up or. But was there somebody you remember liking a lot? No, I can't really remember. You know, as far as, you know, selling your franchise out to get a quarterback, there was never like a Matthew Stafford after we'd go get that I recall or trade for.

I think Alex was probably the one, but we didn't really talk about Alex. But I can't remember off top of my head if there was one. You know, that year after his injury, which of course until this project 11 came out most of us you know the fan base a lot of people in the media had no idea you know that Alex was so close to a dying be having his leg amputated i mean it was amazing did you know what he was going through in the moment the you know Thanksgiving period 2018 yes yes we knew that he had multiple surgeries and there was some serious complications going on, so we were very concerned.

I was able to make it to the hospital a couple of times. You know, his family was in there and wife and mom and dad. I mean, it was brutal in there. So, yeah, we knew. True or false? And this is no reflection of obviously the time and the injury and the whole thing. But I remember that, you know, the injury happened against Houston on the Sunday before your Thanksgiving day game against the Cowboys. You guys were six and four after the Houston game.

going to Dallas and Colt McCoy was your starter. I felt intuitively that you were optimistic that the offense was going to have a chance to really take off a little bit. Maybe it's because you were still, you know, feeling your way out with Alex. You know, it only had been nine games. I mean, cold had been in your system for several years. Is that true or not? Yeah. Yeah, I didn't feel like the season was over by any stretch because Alice got hurt. We obviously were sick about how he was recovering. We want them to get well, but as far as if it was just a normal injury, I felt good about Colt at the time. You know, the unfortunate thing about the game against Dallas was it was a Thursday game and we had to practice and just do all walkthroughs for a quarterback getting us first

reps. You would love to have a normal week of practice where you had a normal Wednesday, normal Thursday, where you get some full speed reps, you know, being his first start. I think that hurt us a lot. And that was unfortunate for him. Then he finally got the full week when we went to Philadelphia on the Monday night and he broke his dang leg. It was unbelievable with the broken legs in the quarterbacks there for a couple of years. And really, you know, there were a lot of people that were very cynical about the injury situation and what you guys would have been without them or, you know, et cetera. But there was the 2017 and 2018 seasons an unprecedented number of injuries.

You guys, I think, had more games lost due to injury. any teams than any of the teams in the NFL. I know it was the case in 2017. It may have been the case in 2018 as well. So we go to 2019 and this is a big year for you. I'm assuming you had a sense going into that year. Well, let me ask you this. Did you think you were coming back in 2019 after the 2018 season was over? I do think I was coming back in 2019. Not 100% sure, but I felt pretty good about it. But I knew that it was a must win year for me in 2019,

especially when, you know, typically after a season in training camp or OTAs, the coaches with one year left on their contract, they get another year tacked on. And they wouldn't give my assistant coaches that other year. That really ticked me off and set me in a place that I didn't

really come out of. It really bothered me. So, I knew it's a must win year force in 19 for sure. Who did the football people, including you, want to draft in the first round of the 2019 draft when Haskins was picked? Well, we just picked up Case Keatham, and obviously we had Colt McCoy coming off his broken leg, and we still had Alex on the roster. We knew Alex wouldn't be ready for the next year, pretty much, unless boring a miracle, which knowing Alex, he probably could have played. But with Case Keenham and Case proved that he could take a team to the playoffs, he just took the Vikes to the playoffs not too long ago.

Right. And won a game in the playoffs. So we thought at that time we had other positions of need. There as Savage was there. We needed a safety slash nickel guy could run, breaks of physicality to the team with Lannon Collins. I think that would have been a nice pair. Obviously, sweat was still out there. We needed another pass rusher after losing Preston Smith.

So those were probably the top two guys that I can remember off the top of my head that I knew we were talking about. Now, by the way, speaking of that, you just reminded me, I remember hearing at the time you did not want Preston Smith to go anywhere. True or not? No. Preston was a guy that, you know, he always wanted more from, but this guy is 6'5, 265, 270 pounds. I never missed a down. You know, after going through what I went through for the last couple years with all the injuries, this guy was the one guy that never missed a play. You know, so young guys that can rush a passer that are big that can set the edge and play the run,

I just don't like letting out of our building. And we drafted him. I thought we should have taken care of Preston. He should have been on Redskin for a long time, in my opinion. So we've heard all of the, you know, the high level, that Dan wanted Haskins and Dan got Haskins. How did it actually play out that day or the days preceding it or that night? Like, are there, what's your memory of it? Are there any good stories about how ultimately, you know, when you guys were on the clock,

you selected Haskins? I knew we were taking Haskins if he was available six months ago before the draft. Why? I just knew Dan loved Dwayne Haskins. He went to the same school as his kid. He talked about him all the time. Every time they were on TV, if we happened to be in a road game, it was Saturday, and he saw him. Hey, he loved that kid.

He probably don't like him because he's a good player. So, you know, he'd always throw a jab at me, but he loved Dwayne Haskins. I just knew it that if he was available, we were taking them. That was just a given. How upset was Kyle Smith and the scouts when it actually did happen? Well, I think that there were some people scout-wise that did like Dwayne. I mean, it wasn't like that Dwayne was a reject now. Dwayne had a lot of talent, not of ability, and we did need a quarterback.

You know, Case Keenan was on a one-year deal, and we weren't sure if Colt was going to come back. We did need a quarterback badly. So, and really, out of that draft class, you had Dwayne, you had, obviously, the kid from Duke that went to the Giants. Daniel Jones. Stiddlem was in that draft. I did like Stidham later in the draft. I was hoping to maybe get a guy later in a draft. You did like Stidham.

She was even in that draft, in the late round pick. Wait, who did you say about a late round pick? Stidham was the second or third rounder. I thought we might be able to get kind of like them a little bit. come in and maybe learn under a year with a case, right, or Colt, whoever won the job. The tough thing is,

is when he draft a guy at 15, and then the owner tells you, hey, no rush, just let them develop, be patient with them. Well, shit, I got a win. We got to win. And then in order to see if this guy can play or actually start, you have to have a competition.

And then Case needs all the reps because it was his first year. Colt was coming off an injury. He won an opportunity to start, so he needed reps. And then we had a third one, a rookie who needed the reps. It was impossible for us to give these guys the reps that they needed to be a starter in the NFL. It was not fair to either one of the three and definitely not fair to us as coaches, where if we would have waited and drafted a guy in a second or third or fourth round,

we could have slowly developed him, give him a few reps, understand he would have been a second or 13 quarterback for a year, let these guys play and then see where we're at after a couple weeks or a couple months of the season and get this guy ready. but to try to get three-guy, three-way competition, that's impossible in pro football, in my opinion. Did you like Drew Locke? I like Drew a little bit.

Yeah, I didn't like him at 15, no. Did you like Josh Rosen as a potential trade in that offseason? Oh, no, no. Okay. Did anybody in the organization like Josh Rosen? Do you remember? It was brought up, I remember. But I think we had to give it up.

We had to give up a lot to get them. So, yeah, no, I wasn't a, huge fan of him coming out, and I wasn't a fan of making a trade to get him. You know, I'm curious, too, about that year, and you described it well, but it was really, it was a difficult situation because you knew you had to win, and at the same time, the owner wanted you to take it slowly with Dwayne Haskins. Is there any thought in your mind that if you had just gone into that year and started Dwayne all 16 games and developed him and developed a relationship with Dwayne, and there had been some improvement during the course

of the year that you could have survived and continued to be his coach? Yeah, I would have not minded that at all. Dwayne wasn't ready, and he never got himself to be ready. I mean, you got to get yourself ready, and he just had a long way to go. I mean, he showed talent and practice without a doubt, but he also showed that he had a long, long way to go. And it was evident. I think all the players saw it, and they saw it after I left, that he wasn't ready,

and he wasn't going to be ready for a while. There's no doubt that he has talent. There's no doubt about it, and I'm not trying to put down Dwayne Haskins at all, but there's also evidence on the practice field in front of players and coaches that he has to do a lot better as far as preparation, as far as consistency at that position. Going back to, as we talked about, you know,

coaches and players know, and it's important to play the best guys. Was there ever, What was netted out on Dwayne? Why didn't it work with you? And you've sort of explained that. Why didn't it work this year with Ron and Scott Turner? Overall, what's his biggest challenges?

What are the issues? Consistency. You know, I think when you see him throw the football, there will be times we say, wow, this is the quarterback that we want for our franchise. So he's got that going for him. And then over the course of a practice session, you'll say, wow, who threw that? Where did that ball come from? It would be 20 yards over the guy's head or 10 yards in the dirt.

I mean, just some weird, I don't know, it's hard to explain. Inconsistencies in his game with those mechanics and all that stuff. Some wow throws that he can make that just turns everybody head and high five it and then to turn around and miss a throw to a check down and throw it in a dirt four yards, behind the guy, it's just weird. I think he just got to continue to work on his mechanics, his approach of the game, and his consistency, and he's got a chance because he does have the arm that you're looking for.

What about the things we've heard, like maturity, lack of it? Well, I think that it's got to hit him. It's got to hit him like a lightning bowl as far as what he has to do to be a quarterback in a national football league. In college, he got away with it. It wasn't a very complicated offense they ran. I mean, they did some good professional. pro concepts with Coach Day over there.

But for the most part, I mean, he had 800 yards passing on jet sweeps to Paris Campbell, for gosh sakes. You know, so we weren't able to get that production here. But there's a lot to it as far as studying, getting yourself ready and understanding each opponent is going to give you something different from a schematic standpoint, from a blitz standpoint, protection coverage. And it's never ending the study, the work that you have to do at that. position. Once that hits him, he's got a chance to do it because he's not a dumb kid at all. He's a smart

kid. And he can handle information. He's got talent. He's got to put it all together. Hopefully he does that. He's got a break future if he does. I'm just curious because I'm just picturing some of those moments where Dan's like, did you see Ohio State? Did you see him play Northwestern? Did you see him play Purdue? Did you see how many touchdowns he threw? Did you ever just say? Actually, Purdue, he was awful. Okay. Well, the Michigan State game, he was awful, too. I remember. awful, yeah. Yeah. Very good in Michigan State.

And I, but did you ever say to him, Dan, they've got more talent than anybody they're playing and half the balls are thrown at the line of scrimmage? Well, yeah, but there would be a throw or two in the course of a game where it'd be like, wow. Yeah. But if you go back and you just watch every play and every game that he played in, which is only one year, which also was a concern. Right. You know, there's, there are some inconsistencies.

I can remember the tape that I made that you have to be concerned about if you drafted them and I expected them to play right away. What was that tape? Well, I had the wow throws, but I also had the wow throws the other way. Like, where are you throwing this ball and how did you miss this guy by this much? You know what I mean? So it was evident on tape and it was evident when we got them. But, you know, it's just crazy.

But nobody listened to you. No, nobody listens to me ever. So I'm not saying that, you know, like I said before, I think he was a good prospect. And I think if we had got him in the second round, possibly the third round, and I know people say there's no way he would have lasted. I think there might have been a chance that he lasted until the second or third round. If Miami didn't take him who needed a quarterback and obviously the Giants already took their quarterback to warn a lot of teams at that time that we're going to take a quarterback in the first two rounds. So I thought we would have if we would have got him in a second or third round and said, hey, Case is our starter and gone with him and let Dwayne develop as a third.

Then I would have been fine with that. But to throw them in there in the starting rotation and training camp was a tough deal for everybody. And not really fair to Dwayne, not fair to myself or not fair to the team, not fair to case. You know, it's funny. You know, and I think you recall this, Cooley would do film breakdowns of the games and great all the players. And then he would do the same thing leading into free agency in the draft. and, you know, of course, he's got all the answers, and I've got all the answers sitting there. You know, we convince each other that we've got all the right answers.

But I remember him saying, you can't draft this guy at, you know, at this spot. He's, he'll be available in the second or third round, and he's nowhere near ready for this. And yet no one was ever able to convince the owner, because it sounds to me like what you're saying is, yes, people saw the talent. as a second or a third round guy, fine, but no one saw him as a first round talent, and yet no one was able to convince the owner otherwise. Why not? Well, I think the hype, if you turn on the television

and you see any of these pre-draft shows with these experts, they're saying that he's the best quarterbacking in a draft by far. So I think that the hype leading up to the draft on Dwayne was pretty high, pretty significant. But who cares about those people? Well, obviously we did. Well, Dan did. Why weren't you able to convince him? Dan, these people are yucks.

They don't know. We're sitting here evaluating the taping. We're telling you he's not going to get drafted. You know, you can't draft him this high. Did anybody, was anybody ever, you know, willing to go right to him and be direct and say, you are wrong, and we can get him maybe in the second or third round? Yeah, that was not going to happen. if you recall that after the draft,

we had the best draft grade, I think, of anybody could get to draft Duane and trade up to sweat. That just shows you how that works. And who knows? I mean, five years from now, we could be talking about this, and Dan, could be right. Duane could be a starting Pro Bowl-type quarterback. You never know.

But at the time, we did not need Dwayne at that position in the draft. But we did take them, and unfortunately, it didn't work out for anybody. All right. I've got more for Jay Gras. Gruden, who has been very generous with this time, and it's much appreciated. And we'll get to the rest of it right after this word from one of our sponsors. All right, a little bit more with Jay Gruden here on this Saturday morning, and I really appreciate Jay the time.

Your favorite game coaching here was which game? Oh, gosh. My favorite game coaching. You said the Seattle game was like a memorable game for you. What was your favorite? That was a shocker, right? That was a shocker. That one in the one, and we went to Jacksonville, Josh Johnson.

We had to teach a snap count on Thursday so we could go down and play a game. We went in that one. Can I tell you, I thought that that, I thought the Jacksonville and Tennessee games at the end of that season, considering what you had. And I said this at the time. I thought they were among the best coaching job games that you had while you were here. You had no business. I thought slow, too. I thought really, I was really proud of those games.

And I thought I should get a shoe sent up to Canton after winning a couple of those games with what we had to go through. but so many injuries. I mean, you're talking about taking a Corvette out on the road that you just bought without tires or an engine or a steering wheel. I mean, we didn't have any of our tired guns. I mean, crazy. Well, you had a chance to beat Tennessee. Would have kept you in the playoff on actually.

I had a chance to beat Tennessee. I mean, we saw the corner cat and the left. I mean, I can't believe it. Josh threw the pick. Oh, yeah. I know. He played, you had him ready to play. I mean, by the way, what took you so long to go to, you know,

Why Sanchez? Why even trot him out there? Whose idea was that? Well, the first play he handed the ball off, Adrian Peterson. 99 yards. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was a good start. I think Sanchez had a little bit more experience as far as in our system, as far as, not in our system, but in the system as far as Paul and plays and all that stuff. And he was more ready to play than Josh, we just got. I mean, we just got both of them, really.

So really it was a flip of the point. I should have gone, Josh. I lost out on that one. I kind of let everybody vote. I kind of figured that, really, it didn't matter. We're probably going to lose anyway. Yeah. Come on.

We're teaching the snap count in a two-minute drill on a Friday before we played because our guys have never done it. That's a little difficult. But Sanchez did. I mean, Sanchez did go to the playoffs now. He did win a lot of games in New York Jets. He did. And I did like Mark.

He's a good guy who's smart. Just when he got in there, it was, it was tough. We needed somebody that could run around because the line wasn't very good. We were banged up on the offensive line, so I need a more athletic quarterback to get us out of trouble. So is that Jacksonville game, your favorite game coaching here?

No, I'd say probably the most favorite game would be even though we had a lot of a lot of issues at halftime with Kirk taking a knee, probably at Philadelphia when we clenched the division. Yeah, right. You guys were unstoppable offensively that night. Yeah, he did, he, he, he did, uh, that's, that's true. He had that sort of brain fart at the end of, of that first half and then, you know, the New Orleans game. That wasn't his fault now. That was Pierre and Deshawn's fault. So Kirk took a lot of heat for that, but that was all on,

I can finally say, that was Pierre and Deshawn. Uh, they were two peas in a pod now. It was, it's just, that's for a whole other podcast, that whole, that whole series of events. Okay. Unbelievable if I told you this thing. Well, tell us real quickly what happened on that situation. What? We had six seconds ago and a half. Right.

Right. So we had time for just a back shoulder fade, incomplete or incomplete, and I kicked the field goal. So if we kick the field goal, we're going to have one second on the clock. They must start off to squib it. Who knows what's going to happen? So I want to run the thing down and take a shot of a touchdown. What the heck?

Right. But well, earlier in a drive, drive, Pierre hated back shoulder fades. He hated them. He said, if you call a fade, I'm running a fade. The boss should be 42 yards over my outside shoulder. That's the way Peytoning through it. That's why I want it. Okay. So, Kirk earlier in a game, we called a go ball. And Kirk tried to back shoulder him. And Pierre never looked for it. It was incomplete horribly out of bounds. So at the end of the half, they called all go and throw, tell, you know, X Venus. We call it Venus back to war fate. Pierre, I'm not running it. He hates them. I'm not going to run it. So he stood there like three yards from a tackle. in a stance like he's not going to run it. And then Deshawn's standing there like he just kicked a field goal. And then Kirk just panicked. He had nothing to do. So he just took a knee.

And that was the end of the half. I've never seen a receiver actually turned down an opportunity to score touchdown, which was what happened on that play. Unbelievable. How did? Kirk took a lot of heat for that. I took a lot of heat for that, but really, Pierre Deshaun, if one of them just would have run around,

we could at least bone on the ground and get the field goal. Well, Kirk, you know, first of all, this is a phenomenal story. I don't think anybody's ever heard it. Kirk still could have taken it and sailed it over, you know, Deshaun's head out of bounds, so you could have kicked the field goal there rather than, you know, essentially, you know, knee. Yeah, they still could have been an intentional grounding as well. True.

Which is the New Orleans. Yeah. So what did you say to Deshaun? All right. To Pierre. Oh, we had that's, we had a fun time in the locker room and half time on that one. Well, it's a good thing. the game went well. I always I always told people that at that half time I earned my entire

Redskin or Washington football team's salary in one half time trying to get everybody calm down and getting everybody ready for the second half. But after winning that game at Philadelphia and clutching the division, despite the chaotic half time that we had, was quite memorable. What was the, so, you know, you're committing right now to me that we're going to do a podcast on Deshaun and Pierre at another time at a later date. But what were the big issues with him? And ultimately, you know, you're the head coach. They're extraordinarily talented. You guys were a good offense in 2015. You came back and, man, with Jordan Reed healthy, I mean, it was dynamic. One of my favorite games, unfortunately, was a loss on Thanksgiving

Day to the Cowboys. But my God, you guys were unstoppable. Dustin missed a couple field goals again, but whatever. And the Green Bay game when you hung 40 on them, and you guys were rolling that year, what were their problems? They were getting huge production. I don't know. I love them both. Don't get me wrong. I love Deshawn. Sean's personality, he and I, I still text him every now and then. I'm a big fan of Deshawn. Try with Deshawn as it's hard to manage him as far as when you want to run the ball. He is going to get out of the way. So we can't run two. him if he has to block the safety the safety's not going to get blocked he's 150 pounds it's not his fault yeah you know i remember one time in practice we put him in motion and uh he was going to

block the safety and after the play and the walk through he came to me he goes hey grew that's not our game plan is it i said no we'll put ryan in for that one don't worry this was pretty funny uh so that was an issue with joshan but i love him as a player his big play ability his ability take the top off of kirk threw a great deep ball too like the post routes the all that uh was very good at it. And Pierre was an unbelievable competitor. I've never seen anybody practice as hard as Pierre on a consistent basis day in and day out. But Pierre is really stubborn. I mean, really stubborn about what he wanted, where he wanted to line up. You know, if I wanted a motion Pierre over and block the safety because Deshawn, you know, he was too little. Pierre didn't like

that. He didn't want to do that. Deshawn should have to do that. That's his job. You know what I mean? So we had issues there. There were some jealousy issues, I think, between the two of them a little bit, but from a talent and from coaching them, I loved it. I loved having them both on the field and both on the team. But I think when they got in the huddle, I don't know what happened if they gave Kirk a hard time and made Kirk uncomfortable or throw me the ball, throw me the ball.

You know, it could have been like that. But there wasn't really the true, I don't know, camaraderie, I would say, between the three of them. Right. In my opinion. But we were very good. You know, when Pierre and Deshawn were on the field with Jordan Reed and James and Crowder,

and Chris Thompson, as far as throwing the football, you're going to be pretty good. And we end up losing all of them. You know, we lost Crowder to Free Agency, Prouder to an injury. We lost, obviously, Pierre to Free Agency, DeShan to Free Agency, and Jordan Reed injury, and then Chris Thompson injury. So you're taking your whole bulk of your success from a route standpoint and trade them all in. Yeah. That's really interesting stuff in terms of the relationships.

on that team offensively. What was your most gut-wrenching loss? The Giants. Yeah. Giants had nothing to play for. We went and we're in. And we, for whatever reason, didn't play good. And the Giants, you know, Coach Matt and those guys came ready to play.

And I can remember at the end of the game, we got the ball, and they played a version of a two-man. And it was first down. We're right around midfield. And Kirk stepped up and threw it right to Rogers Carmardi. He could have run for about 20, I think. But that was a tough one. That was a tough loss because I still think we had a chance to do some damage in the playoffs.

We were playing pretty good, and that loss hurt. That was painful. The Giants came out, you know, vanilla offensively. They ran the ball. Kirk didn't have a good game. Kirk gets blamed solely for that loss by the fan base and a lot of media members. He did not play well, and that was a terrible throw there at the end. But you guys got run on to the tune of like 140 yards in the first half and barely

had the ball in the first half, if I recall in that game. But that was crushing because, you know, Jay, it's weird to say this, you've lasted longer than any coach Dan's ever had, and you put back-to-back winning seasons together. It was the first time it had happened in 20 years, basically, with this organization with 9 and 7 the playoff season and then 8-7-1, and it should have been 9, 6-1 in the playoffs. I can see why that would be the most. gut-wrenching of your losses. Couple of names real quickly. Give me a reaction.

Marvin Lewis. Oh, I love Marvin. I work for him for three years and knows football, knows how to run a organization, knows how to run a team. A ton of respect for him as a coach and a person. What about the defensive coordinator under those teams and the head coach in Minnesota?

What do you think about Mike Zimmer? Oh, he's a great competitor. You know, we had some great days at practice as far as competition and training camp, that's for sure. We were both very hard-headed, very competitive. But I think he's an excellent football coach. Josh Doxon. And Josh Doxon, that's, I don't know. I just never felt like, I still feel like there was talent enough to take him where we took him. But for whatever reason, with his Achilles, with his heel, with his foot, whatever the injury,

that he had. It just never panned out. And that's probably one of the most disappointing, you know, players that we've ever, I just feel like we didn't get his potential out of him or he didn't get the most potential out of himself, one of the other. Did you, I mean, I remember, you know, your favorite line, and we used to use this as a drop on the show, because it was funny the way you delivered it. In talking about two first round picks, you said, you know, we got a guard and we got Josh. Do you remember what I'm talking about? What did you mean by that?

Were you frustrated with the drafts? A little bit. You know, you want to maximize, especially when you have these top picks. You got maximize your first rounders, you know, and love Brandon. She's, Brandon, he's been hurt. He got hurt for us a lot, too.

But Brandon was a good pick for us. We needed offensive line help. But I think Scott thought he would beat out Morgan Moses at right tackle. and we found after one day of rookie mini camp that we had to move him to guard because he couldn't play outside. But he's been a great pick for us. He's going to be a pro bowl. He's a pro bowl guard, all pro guard, and he's going to pay a lot of money.

So I think Brando was a good pick. Josh, you know, at that time, we could have taken John Reed, I think the defense line from Alabama or a couple other options. But we needed a receiver because I think we had both, we knew that Deshaun and Pierre were not going to be around very long. and, you know, taking Josh, it didn't work out. Yeah, I think the pick, if I recall, if Ryan Kelly, the center had been there, McLuhan's told me this before, Scott's told me this before, if Kelly, the center from Bama had been there a few spots later, that was going to be the pick.

Is that your memory? Oh, yeah, we were all in on Ryan Kelly, that's for sure. And I think when he got taken, there was a little bit of a mad panic going on. What now? So you really, that way, you thought he would be there? I had a punch that he may not be there because he was an excellent center. And good offensive line and good centers are hard to find. And when there's not a lot of them in the draft, then some of them will get plucked higher than where they're anticipated going.

So if there's like nine centers in a draft, then sure, he probably would have fallen to us. But there was not a lot of centers in that draft. and if you needed one, you better get them now. And Nicole's needed one, and they took them. You know, it's just for whatever reason, I was just reminded. McLuhan told me once, he said, Jay Gruden, out of all the coaches I've ever worked with, is the best evaluator of talent of any of the head coaches I've worked with.

Do you think that's a strength of yours? I think it is the strength. My biggest strength, actually, is no one personnel. And unfortunately, I didn't have its final say and who I could keep on a roster and who we could sign and who we could draft. I would have liked to have that opportunity that Coach Rivera has right now because I worked at it. I watched everybody.

I did the draft and I would not just come in and I would not make a comment on a guy just because I saw him on ESPN highlight. I'd have to watch the film and I did watch a ton of film and study these guys and figure out how they would fit on our football team. And I felt like I took a lot of pride in that too. Was there a guy that you ultimately got that was your guy that you're most proud of? Oh, I've got a lot of them.

Matt I and I, Nitis, probably number one. He wasn't even on our draft board. Cole Holcomb, number two. He wasn't even on our draft board. We had him as a free agent, maybe bring him in for a rookie free agent trial camp. I said, are you guys out of your mind? I got them all the way up to the fifth.

Those are probably the top two that I can recall, but I've also made some mistakes, and I'm not perfect. There's a guy I've always been curious about where it didn't work out. Not that this was necessarily one of your guys, but what happened with DJ Sweringer here between you and him? Well, you know, obviously DJ has come out publicly on Twitter or whatever and hammered me quite a bit. The big thing is when you're talking to your team,

you try to say anything that we do here stays in house. You know, we're not going to publicly criticize. You know, basically I learned from, you know, what kind of damaged Robert Griffin thing kind of did to us and my relationship with Robert at that time. And it's no good for anybody, you know, what the media can turn it around however they want. So let's not talk about our team or our franchise,

our players, our teammates, or other team members to the media. Let's just keep it in the house. You know, what teams do, great players do. And he just kept going to the media and talking about how we had a bad practice on Friday. You know this, we should have called zone defense. We called man. Oh, God. So it just got to be exhausting.

So we had to let him go. He was a good player, though, wasn't he? DJ is a good player. Yeah. You know what? He's not really ranging enough to be a safety, middle field safety. And he's really not physical enough to be a box safety.

He's kind of in between both of them, but he does have him where he can cover. And he's not a bad player. No, but you know, he got cut after we let him go by Arizona, I think. And then New Orleans, he's been in and out of the lineup. I think he's enacted for most of the year. You know, by the way, it just reminded me, you know, Bill Callahan took some veiled shots at you after you got fired in, you know, last year.

You know, he basically implied, you know, I'm speaking without quotes here, because I don't have them in front of me, but I'm paraphrasing. He basically implied that they're, you know, we're going to have real practices and real accountability now that he was in charge. What did you make of that? Yeah, that bothered me a little bit. You know, I think, you know, yeah, Bill is a unique guy. He's one of the only, he's probably the only staff member that I didn't hire as far as on.

coaching staff, you know, Bruce hired him from Dallas. So I think there was a little bit disconnect between myself and him throughout the years. And I think once I finally got let go, he could take a few jabs at me, which is fine. I mean, it's the way it is, I guess. You know, you lasted six years. Dan hasn't had one coach that he's hired since he purchased the team. He hasn't had one of those coaches leave with a winning record. Marty Schottenheimer, the late Marty Schottenheimer, was 8 and 8, got fired after one year.

Spurrier, Gibbs, Zorn, Shanahan, and you, Jay Gruden. One total playoff win during his ownership tenure of the last 20 years. He had one in the first year, but he didn't hire Norv Turner. Why, in your opinion, hasn't it worked here for anybody under Dan? Well, quarterback. Number one, I've made some big mistakes at that position. And you don't have a quarterback in this league, a guy that you can carry your franchise. You're not going to win.

You're going to go through coach after coach after coach. And it's evident amongst the other 32 teams. The teams that are doing well and that coaches that have stayed for a long time, they've had great quarterbacks. You know, Pete Carroll with Russell Wilson, Mike Tomlin with Ben Rothersberger, obviously Belichick with Brady. Not to say these guys aren't great coaches, but you got to have somebody that can play that position at a very, very high level. And Andy Reid will never leave with Patrick Mahoney. homes. We just, they have made mistakes that, you know, Patrick Ramsey, the, you know, the time after time after time after time, the quarterback position has been unstable, letting Kirk Cousins

out of the building, draft and Robert, whatever. The case may be Alex Smith getting hurt. You know, I think that was our best chance was that year we were six and three in a game and a half leading a division. We're fairly healthy. And then the quarterback position just got decapitated. You know, I know that season was six and three, but to me and watching as a fan, your offense wasn't as dynamic. Was it on the verge of becoming that? Or was your offense not the best fit for Alex? I mean, you didn't have a say. Any offense is going to be dynamic with Alex.

You know, Alex is more of a game manager. You know, you call some deep shot plays that might be there. He'll probably err on the side of checking it down. where more, you know, and that's the way he's always been. I think that's why San Francisco opted to go with Kaepernick, and I think that's why, obviously, the Chiefs opted to draft another quarterback, not because they don't like Alex.

Alex is a great quarterback, but there are times where he can be conservative to a fault. But as far as what we needed at that time, I thought the way we were playing defense, and I thought Alex was a great fit. We can win a lot of games. You can win a lot of games with Alex, a lot more than you can with a guy who throws interceptions.

and turns the ball over, that's for sure. And that's the one thing Alex has always been great out in his career is protecting the football, being smart with the football. And there's a lot to be said about that being a great quality in the quarterback. What do you think of this situation now with Ron Rivera in charge, having more control, at least for now? I mean, you know, Marty apparently had control. Joe apparently, I mean, Joe's a different, you know, ballgame.

Mike apparently had control and it didn't work out. What do you make of this situation in Washington right now? and what do you think their future is? Well, I think it's great to have the head coach and control as long as he can handle it if he's going to work at it and do it. For a couple of reasons. I think people bash you as far as your culture. It's a bad culture around here.

If the coach can't control who's on the team, how is he going to control the culture? You know, you have a couple bad apples. Hey, let's get rid of this guy. No, we can't get rid of him. He's on a second year. He's a good player. It'll turn us in the media.

Who gives it crap? We got to get rid of some of these bad players. But if you have control as a coach to control, the guys who come in and out of your building, you've got a lot better chance. But still, they're going to have to dress the quarterback spot, right? And until they do that and get the guy that they really think can lead them, then they'll still continue to struggle. But defensively, they're in a great spot.

They have great defensive line. Pretty good secondary. So that can carry them a long ways. But still, they have to dress a quarterback spot. How do you think they'll address it? They just extended Taylor Heineke. There are fans, and I take calls from them every day, that actually believe that he's the answer after a game and a quarter,

five quarters of play. What do you think they should do at quarterback? Well, there's been a lot of quarterbacks that have played good for a quarter and a half, you know, but as far as playing 16 games, two years, three years, eight years, that's obviously I can't comment on that because I've never seen the guy play in practice. You know, who knows, maybe he is the answer. But, you know, they're going to have to draft one or trade for one, or maybe it's Alex for another year,

and then see where this Heineke guy's at, let him compete. I don't know, but I know that that position has to be stable and has to be addressed. They made a run at Stafford. Are you a Stafford fan? Oh, yeah. I love Stafford, yeah. He's a great player. Apparently they expressed interest in Derek Carr, who plays for your brother.

Do you like Derek Carr? Yeah, I love Derek. Yeah, great here. But obviously, he's not available. But yeah, he had a great year. Would you, in this situation in Houston, how would you deal with Deshawn Watson? I mean, he's an elite quarterback, right? Yeah, that's a tough one.

He's under contract. You know, the difference between he and Kirk is we always had to tag Kirk where Deshawn's already under contract. So it's a unique situation. I think they got to talk it through and keep him. He's such a good player and such a dynamic player that, okay, what's plan B? If let's say we trade DeShon Watson, we get a couple draft picks, great, we get some number ones. but who's going to play quarterback for us? I mean, you can't just leave that position on your team vacant

and expect to, let's address it in the draft in the late first round and give the keys to our franchise to a kid right out of Virginia Tech or whatever. It's very difficult to do. I mean, Deshawn's an established quarterback, a great quarterback. He can escape. He can throw on the run. He can make plays. They got to figure out in-house how to make him happy and keep him there, in my opinion.

or get something extraordinary for them, a known commodity. Jay, this has been great. I really appreciate it. I wish you the best of luck in your next step if it's a broadcasting gig that would be great. By the way, which would you prefer? Would you want to be a studio guy, or would you like to call games as an analyst?

I'd rather be the game analyst, but I could do, you know, I can try the studio. I'd like to do one of them. I almost want to be involved. You know, I don't think coaching is going to happen. This year, I think most of the stabs are full. I tried to get my name in the hat a few spots. Didn't work out.

But I do want to stay involved in football somehow. Being a game analyst would be more fun for me, I think, or more to my liking. But I could do the in-studio stuff. Well, I wish you the best of luck with that. I actually really intuitively think you would be great and entertaining. You've got the quick sense of humor to do it. You're likable.

You obviously know the game. So I wish you the best of luck with that. And hopefully you get a gig and, you know, we can have you on again, you know, in the future. But thanks. Really appreciate the time, Jay. No worries. Thank you. It's good to catch up.

Take care. Bye, bye, bye, see it. All right. That was great. And I really appreciate Jay Gruden spending that much time with us here on Saturday morning. Stay safe today. Back on Monday with Cooley.