The Kevin Sheehan Show - Jay Gruden On Deebo + Draft Talk

Episode Date: March 6, 2025

Kevin opened with all of the breaking NFL news from this afternoon. Jay Gruden jumped on to give his thoughts on the Deebo Samuel trade and some free agent ideas for Washington. Thor Nystrom/Fantasy Football Weekly joined Kevin to talk Commanders and NFL Draft.  Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Chean Show. Here's Kevin. Two guests on the show with me today. Jay Gruden will be on with me in the next segment coming up shortly. We'll talk to Debo Samuel Trade and a lot more.

And then one of my favorite NFL draft analysts, Thor Nystrom, from Fantasy Football Weekly, will be with me in the final segment of the show. The show's presenting sponsor is Windonation. If you need new windows, call them at 86690 Nation or go to windownation.com. Mention my name. They'll come out and give you a free in-home estimate. It'll take less than an hour and you've got no obligation after that. If you've been thinking about new windows, I recommend window nation at 86690 Nation or windonation.com.

A busy day with NFL breaking news. And that's what this first segment. is going to be about. I'll have tomorrow a recap of the Maryland-Michigan game. I'm not going to do a preview of the game because it's an early start time, 630 in Ann Arbor. Big game for the Terps. I mean, if they can win tonight and then win Saturday against Northwestern, they'll solidify a top four spot in the Big Ten, maybe as high as number two in the Big Ten tournament, the two-seed. And I think really a win tonight and a win on Saturday will go a long way towards nailing down no worse than a four-seed in the NCAA tournament. But on tomorrow's show, I'll have a recap of the game. I'm not going to

preview it. Maryland is a two-point dog on senior night at Michigan. You know, they played senior day at Penn State on Saturday. Seems a bit unfair to play two of those senior games on the road, but they are a two-point underdog at my bookie currently. And that, I think, I think that's probably right. I don't think they should be a bigger underdog. Michigan's not played well recently. But the big news of the day is NFL-related. And it starts with Max Crosby getting the largest non-quarterback deal in NFL history.

Vegas gives them a three-year extension. $106.5 million, that's $35.5 million a year. That's $500,000 more than what Justin Jefferson got last summer. Now, this deal won't last as the largest non-quarterback deal in history. Jamar Chase is going to set that record when Cincinnati does his deal. Most people project it to be close to $40 million a year. But Max Crosby's been one of the best pass rushers in the game. and he's staying with the Raiders. And he'll play his first season for Pete Carroll, who's the head coach in Las Vegas, starting in 2025. So that's the biggest NFL news of the day. But there's a lot of other stuff that happened today and stuff that happened since we did the podcast yesterday. So I'm going to go through kind of a list of the things that are somewhat connected to our team.

None of the news actually involves our team. Again, the last piece of news was the Debo Samuel trade over the weekend. But there is a lot of division news, and there are some players that became available today that do have ties to Washington. So let me begin with Philadelphia. They re-signed middle linebacker Zach Bonn. They had to do that. He was so good for them. three years, $51 million, $34 million guaranteed.

So that is for a middle linebacker that in his first year playing middle linebacker was a first team all pro. Vic Fangio saw that in him when they signed him. Nobody else did. And he was a dominant player for the Eagles defensively. If he had made it to the open market, which I didn't think he would. but if he had of, I think Washington may have been interested. I think a lot of teams would have been interested. Bobby Wagner now, he's got to come back, right?

I guess Pete Carroll in Vegas, his former head coach, is a possibility. Bobby Wagner won't be able to use the Zach Bonn contract as like a comp. He's seven years older than Zach Bonn. But Bobby Wagner was the second team, all-pro middle. linebacker this year. Yeah, that's a big piece for Philly. You know, they still have Josh Sweat and Mackay Beckton and Milton Williams. And I think a lot of people are expecting those players to actually make it to free agency.

But Zach Bonn was number one on the list of those guys. They had to have him back. And they got him back. Yesterday after the show, the Eagles gave Saquan Barkley a two-year $41.2 million. contract extension, 20 plus million per year for Sequin, the highest running back contract of all time. Look, he was great, and rewarding him makes total sense and extending him to make sure he's under contract beyond 2025 makes a lot of sense. But I think, you know, a contract like that for a running back is risky, especially a running back that in his seven years in the league has been

injured in four of them. He was healthy last year, and he had nearly an all-time record-breaking season, but as great as he was, I think Philadelphia had to extend him and they had to reward him, but there's risk in that deal. I don't think they had a choice necessarily. What are you going to say, no, we're good leaving you on this remainder of this deal for next year and then potentially losing you. And he was significant to their season, clearly. I would say that the defense in Philadelphia was certainly the number one reason they won the Super Bowl game itself. And it's pretty close to one overall in terms of the reasons they were in the Super Bowl. Their defense was incredible this year.

But so was Sequin Barclay. So the Eagles have a lot of money tied up in a running back. Dallas has been busy the last two days. Have you been paying attention to what the Cowboys have done? Yesterday, they restructured CD Lambs contract. Today, they restructured D. Dak Prescott's contract. The two together, the Cowboys just created,

nearly $57 million in cap space. Guess who's about to become busy in free agency? The Cowboys are. They were not last year. Now, some of the space they're clearing up could be for a Micah Parsons contract extension. Parsons is playing on that fifth year of his rookie contract, the one in which they, you know, picked up the option. I think he earns $24 million this year on the fifth year option.

Maybe they let them play it out. Maybe they trade them. Maybe they tag them next year. Maybe that's the plan. But maybe some of that space is to do a deal with Micah Parsons. But look, Dallas last year, very quiet in the offseason, other than very late getting Dak Prescott signed to the biggest deal ever. This year, they're going to make some noise.

They're certainly going to attempt to make some noise. And I think part of it is because the NFC championship game featured Washington and Philadelphia. And that could not have been easy for Jerry to handle. He doesn't have just Philadelphia to look up to. He's got Washington he's looking up to right now. And they probably think they're close. You know, they probably think if we can add two, three, starters and some depth, we're right there roster-wise, with Washington at least. And they're not

wrong about that. The difference, of course, is our quarterback is better than theirs. Jaden Daniels is better than Dak Prescott. But Jerry is, you know, creating some room to now chase down two division foes, not one. And keep in mind, after Washington broke their long drought of going to the NFC championship game. Dallas now has the longest drought of teams in the NFC. I think Cleveland's got the longest overall. There was no news specific to the Giants, but they're going to be an interesting watch over the coming days.

They don't have a quarterback on their team. They've got one QB under contract, Tommy DeVito. So the Giants and the quarterback, moves or move, depending on how it works out, is going to be an interesting watch because I've said this for a while, and I don't think many of you agree with me, and that's fine. I think the Giants are interesting if they find a quarterback that can play, because I think their roster is far from the worst roster. I think defensively it's pretty damn good. But Aaron Rogers is a possibility.

Russell Wilson, Sam Darnold, who the Vikings didn't tag. man, has his value fallen off a cliff, really? I mean, the Vikings didn't tag him essentially because they feel like they can get him for a bargain again, that there's not going to be a ton of competition. Now, there may be some competition for him, but not at a $38, $39, $40 million franchise tag cost. Remember, Sam Darnold, people were talking about $50 million. a year into early December, mid-December, until those final two games against Detroit in the regular season and the Rams and the playoffs.

The Giants could draft Cam Ward or Shadur Sanders, or they could trade up to draft Cam Ward. I think Cam Ward is easily the number one quarterback in this draft. And, you know, they could hope that he's Jaden Daniels or, you know, worst case, C.J. Stroud, you know, that he could have that kind of a rookie year. More news from outside of the division, but still with kind of dots connecting to here. Let's start with this one. Christian Kirk, wide receiver Jacksonville, released today by the Jags.

Kirk, remember a few years ago, got that big deal in free agency after some good years in Arizona with Cliff Kingsbury. so Kirk is out there and I think a lot of people are connecting the dots. Christian Kirk, Cliff Kingsbury. He signs in Washington. Now, some will think the Debo-Samuel trade lessens the chances that they go after Christian Kirk. I don't think that that's necessarily the case. Debo's under contract, remember, for just one more season. And he'll line up in the slot a lot. And Kirk has lined up in the slot a lot. in recent years, but both of these players have played and lined up all over the place. We do know this. Cliff Kingsbury really likes Christian Kirk. Bill Barnwell last week,

ESPN.com, in a column wrote about, and he was speculating about Kirk being available. He wrote, former Arizona coach Cliff Kingsbury, now the offensive coordinator in Washington, raved about Christian Kirk as, quote, one of my favorite players, I've ever been around. Closed quote. Javon Hargrave is being released by the 49ers, according to reports. He's reportedly healthy. He had a tricep injury early in the season.

Apparently, he is fully healed 100% healthy. Remember, Hargrave was in Philadelphia and then signed the big deal to go to San Francisco. Adam Peters was there when they signed Javon Hargrave. And Washington is on the verge of saying goodbye to John Allen. Hargrave's 32 years old. He had seven and a half sacks in that season in San Francisco after signing there in 2023. That was after having 11 sacks in that final year in Philadelphia.

Washington has a need for delinmen, including interior delinemen, if John Allen walks, if they wave them or if they trade them. Yesterday, this broke after we recorded the show. The Jets waived Devante Adams. Apparently, he wants to play somewhere on the West Coast. For those of you that would quickly say, no, not interested, he's not for us. I would ask why. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not in on Devante Adams at any price.

I'm not, not at his age. I'm not even sure I'd be in for a fair price, but I think that there are going to be plenty of suitors for Devante Adams. And I don't think he's going to be cheap. But in terms of the player, just to be clear, he is still a very high-level NFL-wide receiver. He's been on junk teams. I mean, bad teams the last few years,

and he has produced at a high level. He played three games in, Vegas and then got traded to the Jets. And in 14 combined games last year, all right, had to kind of acclimate to the Jets after he got there. I understand he's familiar with Aaron Rogers. But he had 85 catches in 14 games for nearly 1,100 yards and eight touchdowns. His two years in Vegas before that, his two full seasons,

101 and a half average catch seasons, with, 1,300 plus yards on average and 22 combined touchdowns with the likes of Aidan O'Connell and Gardner Minshu at quarterback for much of the time. He still separates with the best of them. I mean, he wouldn't be a number two to Terry. He'd be another number one, even at his age. I could see the chargers for him. You know, Justin Herbert, just one receiver, the guy from Georgia, Ladd McConkey. I could see the Steelers if Rogers lands there or the Giants if Rogers lands there.

Imagine the Giants with Rogers, Malique neighbors, and Devante Adams. I mean, it would depend on Rogers, obviously. Anyway, that's kind of the news that is closest to home, not necessarily specific to our team, but a connected dot situation with us and our division teams. And again, by the time you listen to this, it may be different. There may be more news.

Nothing on our team as of the recording of this podcast. My guess on what would be next, something on Ertz, something on Zekees, maybe some clarity on John Allen. You know, the Terry McCorn extension is going to happen at some point. Next week is when we get, you know, a lot of big news. Free agency begins. And I've got to think that.

that some significant additions are coming, especially on defense. I mean, there's lots of news coming. You know, there is. When you've got 40 plus roster spots to fill, you know, Adam Peters said last week, second fewest players under contract in the league, there is a lot of news headed our way over the weeks ahead, looking forward to it. But, yeah, nothing specific to Washington today. but if I had to guess, and I know I guessed this last week before the Indycombine, something like Zichias or Ertz,

I would still guess Ertz, Zichias. Again, maybe some clarity on John Allen. If not a trade, maybe there's a release coming on John Allen. Who knows? Yeah. All right. Jay Gruden next. Oh, real quickly, I wanted to mention this.

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Windonation.com. Joining me right now, the former head coach of the Washington Redskins, Jay Gruden, who celebrated a birthday yesterday. Happy birthday. You have the same birthday as Hall of Fame basketball coach, Gary Williams, who turned 80, You didn't turn 80. What did you turn yesterday? I turned 58.

Kevin, 58. And what did you do to celebrate your birthday? Well, I hung out the house. I took a bike ride. Then I went to my club and got my free entree. I stumbled around downtown Atlantic Beach and went to bed at 10 o'clock. 10 o'clock. Wow.

A raucous night. A minute to pet. Yeah, party, party. What was the free entree at your club? I got a New York strip. Yeah? I'm back because it wasn't cooked enough, and it took about an hour, and then I ate it. It was good.

It was good. So it came out a little, a bit too bloody for you? A little bit too bloody, yes. All right. Did you play yesterday? I did not. We have Epson Tour, which is like the ladies' event to try to get to the LPGA. Got it.

They've kind of taken over our course this week. And I may catty, I may not, I'm not sure yet. We have a female stand with us. She's trying to get back to the LPGA tour, and we put her up for the week, and hopefully she can finish her top 10 and get back to the LPGA. Have you caddied before for a player in a tournament? I caddied last year for a day. I couldn't do it the second day because it was pouring down rain.

That's a lot for a caddy. You know, caddy is one thing, but when it's raining, how hard that is? Well, the bag gets heavy. You're covering the bag. You're cleaning the clubs constantly, right? Yeah, and she was out of it anyway. So I was like, you know what? I think I'm going to take today off.

I'm too old to walk another 18. So I let her have it on her own, and she did not take the cut. Are most of the caddies for this event members that really know the course? And caddies who are caddies already at the course? Some of them. They have natural caddies or their own caddies, but a lot of them don't have caddies and have some higher, or not hire some people at our club volunteer to Getty, like I would do.

Yeah, they played the Junior Girls Championship at our place a couple of years ago, and Rose Zhang, Zhang, who's, I don't know what she's right now in the world, she won it. And just walking around and watching them hit it, it's just, I mean, take the distance out of it, because it's just the short game and the precision, it's amazing to watch. that I rode my bike up there, watched them all practiced, and I just hung around the chipping area and watched how good they chip and out of the sand traps and practiced with them. It's amazing that these girls, how good they are, and they're not even on the LPGA. Exactly.

How hard it is to get on that tour. Yeah. Crazy. All right. Well, happy birthday a day late. Thank you. You're headed towards, well, you get two years until a big one. What do you get Social Security anyway?

I don't know. I think it's six. Is it 65? Damn it. I still got seven years on if I make it that. All right. Let's talk some ball. So what did you think of the Debo trade? I loved it, man. I think it's a great trade. I really do. I think with the lack of free agents out there that can help your football team at the receiver position,

I think getting a guy like Debo with his experience and his size and his playmaking ability is an upgrade. And anytime you can upgrade your football team for a fifth round pick, I think it's a hell of a deal. How do you handle the excitement about or the thought about the player the way he was at his best versus what he might be right now? Yeah, I don't think you're going to get him at his best. And I don't think they need him at that level because they have other weapons with Terry McLaurin. I think his role is going to be, you know, he's going to get the ball in his hands, creative. creatively wise on the jet sweeps and the reverses and all that stuff, and maybe out of the backfield time to time.

It'll be a second option from time to time. It'll be a first option. But I think it's a ability to run after the catch and the ability to block. I think it's going to be a huge benefit for the team. So I don't expect them to have 1,500-jords total yards. I expect them to have 8 or 900 total yards. But it'd be a big red zone threat, be a big threat out of the backfield, the jet sweeps your reverses, the quick passes, the RPO's, all that stuff.

and him has a blocker out on the perimeter is huge. He's one of the better blockers in the National Football League at the receiver position. So you're already, you know, assuming that they're not going to get the best of Debo Samuel. Why? He's 29. Well, his best was pretty damn good, and they used him in a lot of different ways. I don't see them using him as a running back that much. I do see him using him as a running back a little bit, but not to that extent in 2021. we had all those yards and touchdowns,

out of the backfield and rushed for 500, whatever it was. I think his role still will be significant, but not quite to that extent. Can you think of an example during your coaching career where a player was coming in and you were really excited about that player, but when he got there, it just wasn't anywhere near what you thought it was. And by the way, vice versa. You know, Bruce and Dan went out and got a player that you weren't thrilled about, but he came in and you were pleasantly surprised.

That's a tough one. I don't know off the top of my head a long time ago. I'm old. I'm 58 right now. You know, I think some people were excited about Paul Richardson and his speed, and he never quite panned out. You know, obviously Trell Pryor never panned out. But somebody that came in and we were pleasantly surprised.

No, I can't remember that. I mean, the only thing I know you've told me this many times. Well, AP, AP, you know, I thought we got him at the tail over his career. He actually had, we were surprised he had a really good year, that one year for us. We kind of got him as a stopgap guy, a fill in a Band-Aid, and he actually still had a lot juice left in his tank more so than we thought. That'd probably be one example. You told me that you had no idea until you got to the first.

you know, OTA or mini-camp or whatever it was, how good Jordan Reed was. Yeah, Jordan's a special dude. I mean, yeah, his ability to separate and catch the ball and run routes and man to man and open up in his own. He was a special guy. He just couldn't stay healthy, damn it, but he was one of better tight ends and pro football at one time, that's for sure. All right, back to Debo and the fit here.

I wanted to just get your thoughts on something. I was thinking about all of the reasons that you add a Debo Samuel. And there's so many obvious reasons that you would add them. But I think one of the things that may be under the radar a bit is their desire to just have a better running back situation. And I'm not talking about Echler's position. I'm talking about Brian Robinson Jr.'s position. He had a season that was very up and down. sometimes not available, sometimes not great.

Had a couple of very good games. He's going to count 3.4, 3.5 million against the cap. That's not a massive number, but it's a number. And I'm wondering if Debo potentially was acquired, not just for the overall weapon that he is, but that they see him as a potential, you know, 9, 10, 11 carry a game guy out of the backfield, and maybe they add another back in the draft, and Brian Robinson Jr. isn't on the roster next year. Any thought given to that, or now that I've presented

it to you, does any of that make sense? Yeah, definitely Debo can take the slack off another running back. You know, I just don't know how much they want to use them with the injuries that he's had. And I think the trainers and the doctors will have to really find out about his shoulder and whatever injuries he's had. As far as the wear and tear, they want to put on him if they want to give him, you know, seven or eight carries a game. I don't know what the extent is, but he could definitely take, you know, some of the role off of Austin Echler. But as far as a Brian Robinson, they need a first second down back, a guy that can coat the rock. And whether they can get that in a third or fourth or fifth round or whatever it is, that's yet to be seeing. You know, there's some guys later in the draft that I think they can get that can help.

because this is a pretty good draft for backs. I'd love to see him get to Camp Scataboo, man. That's my favorite guy. So I've got a guy like that, but yes, I would say Brian Robinson days are numbered. Yeah, you know, the health part, that's going to be a part of the discussion with this player because it's been a part of the discussion with him throughout his career. You know, even when he plays, he's on the injury report a bunch. And, you know, that could lead to weeks in which, you know, he's on.

for the lack of a better description, a pitch count. I wanted to ask you about how you see him fitting in in the two-back stuff that Cliff ran last year when Echler and Brian Robinson Jr. were both healthy. You know, with the two of them and with Jaden as a potential runner, it was difficult to defend. How do you defend it with a healthy debault and Echler more so than even Brian Robinson, Jr.? in those two back sets? Well, you play nickel and you play your zones

and people are responsible for gaps, single gap football, and you just play your normal football. It's not crazy hard. Sometimes when you line up in empty formations and teams check their empty automatics or drop eight or their empty blitzes, and then you give it to Debo on a zone play, you can really gut defense.

That's what San Francisco did with them a lot. They'd line up and empty an embochom back in the backfield, and they put defenses on a pickle because they were dropping eight, they're playing soft coverages, and all of a sudden, boom, they run a zone play or a power player or a counterplay, and they gut people with it. So, yeah, you can put people on a pick one. And then you got Jaden's ability to run, too.

So now you got, you got Debo can run it, you got Echler can run it, and then you got Jaden's the wild card who can also keep it for a huge game. So yeah, it's tough on defense because you have to secure every gap, every blade of graph on the outside and the perimeter, and you have tough receivers outside that can block with Terry McCorn and who are over else they signed. So yeah, it's going to put defense. that's going to buy. I mean, I actually think Debo's going to be the perfect zone readback with

Jaden. Yeah, yeah. No, he's done that before as well. That's why I love the guy. I mean, I think he's a physical guy that can run between the tackles outside the tackles. You know, not many times as a first tackler get him down. I mean, he's a running back mentality. He's playing a receiver. So, yeah, he's held a bad for the team. Would you be in Adam Peters's office this morning or late yesterday telling him that you want devontay adams to no i don't think so i think uh they have much more bigger needs i think especially on a defensive side of the ball and they still have to secure the tight end spot they got some things they got to take care before they go out and pay for another receiver they got already got terry and debo now and i think uh you know mccapri

and i think they resign hopefully they reigned yami brown for the fourth guy and maybe noa brown for another big target and draft somebody to really secure the outside. But I would really think about the tight-end spot, and obviously the past rusher spot. They've got to get an edge guy for sure. All right. Do you have names that you're thinking about in terms of who they should prioritize when free agency starts next week?

I think they have to, first you've got to look at your own team. With Zach Earth, I think you've got to get him resigned for sure, just because the lack of tight-end prospects out there. and the draft, there's two really good titles, but I don't think they'll have a chance to get them. But I think Zachary's number one. They've got to figure out what they're going to do with Bobby Wagner. I'd like to take care of the own guys first,

and obviously the edge rusher. They've got to figure out what they're going to do there. That's the most important spot. Dante Fowler, are they going to re-sign him or not? Those are the three guys, I think. Jeremy Chin's also a player. He played pretty well last year. They've got to figure out those four guys

before they start looking elsewhere. I think you look at Ronnie Stanley Jr., I think at Baltimore at left tackle. Then maybe they can move the other guy inside the guard, which would be good. So, yeah, they have a lot of issues up front. Do you go out and get Khalil Mack? I don't know. Another pastor, Scher, Fowler's asking for too much money.

So, yeah, there's a lot of guys out there that could help. But I think secure in the guys that they have, and maybe add the guy like Kalil Mack or Kufanga from San Francisco at safety if they don't get Jeremy Chin. There's some guys out there that can help. I think we talked about this because it was probably leading into Super Bowl week, but you are in favor, correct me if I'm wrong, in pursuing Miles Garrett if he's actually available. Yeah, he's one of the guys that changed the game for your defense.

There's not many game changers, he's a closer, and Jayden Daniel's going to put up points. Teams are going to throw the ball, and there's no better player on defense that can wreck a game like Miles Garrett. So yes, there's not many pass rushers like that. You know, you figure T.J. Watt, maybe the Bosa brothers, you know, Abdul Carter is coming out in the draft. They're not going to get him. Michael Parsons, maybe. But that's a pretty short list when it comes with past rushers

that you have to put four hands on at all times. And if you don't, you know, it's going to be a fact. Yes, I would, if you have a chance to get a guy like that, yes, I would do what I could to get him. Zach Vaughn or Bobby Wagner for, you know, there'd be a big price difference. Zach Bond's going to be expensive, but which direction would you go in if you had a choice?

Well, Zach Bond's more athletic, obviously. So it's a different type of linebackers. So I don't know how much juice Bobby has in his tank he played pretty good last year, and how much he's going to warrant in free agency. I don't know if Pete Carroll's going to go back and try to get them at the Raiders. Who knows?

But I think Zach Bond's at this time in their career is a better player, but Bobby Wagner, what he did for the defense and his leadership, might carry a lot of weight with the team. I don't think anybody would be upset if they re-sign Bobby Wagner. But Zach Bonn is probably better at this stage in his career. What do you think of Charverius Ward? Yeah, he's been hurt a little bit, too.

I think he's a good player. I'd rather get Carlton Davis. I think he's a better corner personally. He can play bump and run. He's long. He's fast. Of the two, I'd rather have Carlton Davis if I was going after a free agent.

Is Detroit going to lose him? He's a free agent, so I don't know what's going on with him. Yeah. I think he has. I don't know if they've recited him yet or not. They've tagged them or not, but I think he's a better corner. You said Hufanga, if it's not Chin, is there another safety out there like Holland or Morg? If Chin ends up getting money that you don't want to match?

Yeah, I think all those guys are okay. I just think Hufanga is a young player. he's been hurt, obviously, for a couple years. He's a playmaker, a turnover maker. I think for his age, despite his injury history, I think I'd rather have him. He's a really good player. I think they'll probably do something with Chin, I would think,

because he's, you know, he played pretty good for him. But if, like I said, if he goes, if he's too much money, who fogging, he might be able to get a steal just because of his injury history. What happens to John Allen? You know, I don't know. I don't know what's happening with him. You know, again, when he came out of a draft, He kind of had a red dot on his name with his injury history,

and he's been hurt a little bit now. So I don't know how much play he's going to get, but he can still do a lot of damage on the inside. But I think he'll have some interest because defense alignment are hard to find as well. I think right now people think that they can get people in the draft. You might have to wait until after the draft before he gets a really good deal. But, yeah, he can still play. I just don't know where it's going to be.

They're going to let them go, right? They're going to let them go or they got to trade them. Well, there was a discussion of having him involved in the trade for Debo, but the 49ers didn't want him. I mean, he and his agent had the ability to go out and seek a trade. It doesn't seem like there's one available as of now, but that doesn't mean it won't change. Probably going to have to come down a little bit salary-wise. Yeah, are you comfortable right now with Johnny Newton and Duran Payne as the starting defensive tackles the next year? Newton's got to play better.

Definitely pain is fine. I think they'll have to get some more depth in there. You know, Newton's got a lot of promise. He played pretty well. But to stop the run, big players like Philadelphia Eagle defensive line, I think they need to get somebody a little bit bigger in there, let Newton play on third down and rush the passer. But I think they do need to get a little bit bigger up front.

Are you calm on Marshawn Latimore, or are you, you know, concerned? No, I'm good. I think he's a great competitor. I think, you know, I don't know if he's really 100% healthy all last year. I think the offseason, I think he'll be more healthy, and I think he'll buy into the system a little bit more. You've got to have a good corner like that. And, you know, he's a competitor.

He's got to calm down a little bit, but I do like Marsha. I think he's a little player. We haven't talked, I'm pretty sure, since the Eagles crushed the Chiefs in the Super Bowl. Do you think in the building out in Ashburn, there is a focus on the Eagles. What do we need to do in this offseason to close the gap with this heavyweight that resides in our division? Do teams think that way, you know, singularly about one team when that one team really is potentially a dominant team in their own division and their own conference? Yeah, that's a goal.

You've got to try to get players that can compete against the Eagles. That's why we mentioned, you know, is Newton ready to play a defensive line for 65 snaps? It gets that offensive line for the Eagles. I don't know if he's ready for that. You've got to get somebody else that can come in and play better. You got to get somebody can rush off the edge. You know, I mean, right now, the edge play, you don't even have an edge player, you know, other than Armstrong. And he's not really, you know, he's not really a force to stop the run or rush the passer.

So you've got to really secure the edges and you've got to get bigger to be able to play the line of scrimmage against the Eagles. I mean, that's what it's all about. In order to be the best, you have to beat the best, and you can't beat the best what the personnel I have right now. So you've got to upgrade your whole defense in line pretty much other than Jonathan Allen, having other than John Paine. All right. Let's finish up with this.

Just the quarterback. Stafford stays in L.A. That was kind of strange. I think we talked about it leading up to the Super Bowl, but he stays there. Sam Darnold, not tagged by the Vikings. Is it possible that there's not a market for Sam Darnold? No, I think there'll be a market for them.

I think there's going to be a team like the Giants or the Raiders or somebody that can sign them because he's proven he can play and then they can move their draft capital elsewhere and try to get somebody that can help their team in other areas. So, yeah, I think he's definitely going to find a spot to play. I just can't believe it's not with the Vikings. I know they like JJ McCarthy, but he didn't do anything the whole season. He's hurt. You know, he played the preseason, but to put all your eggs in his basket is odd to me.

You know, maybe they'll come up with a deal and try to, resign them at a later date. But for them to go all in on J.C. McCarthy being hurt all year is crazy to me. I know Kevin's a great coach and that quarterback whisperer, supposedly. But that's a hell of a risk to take, in my opinion. Did you know he was a quarterback whisperer when he was coaching for you? Yeah, yeah, he's great. He didn't whisper to, you know, some of the guys we had because I got fired.

Yeah. But, you know, what you just said, I kind of feel the same. same way, which is very telling about how they feel about Sam Darnold. That's the way I view it. Maybe I'm viewing it incorrectly. It's just that they're so high on J.J. McCarthy. But Sam Darnold's final two games cost him a lot of money. Yeah, I think that they have to figure that J.J. can do what Sam did and not have to pay that type of price for Sam Darnold and be married to Sam Darnold when you have a prospect like J.J. on your roster. I think they're going to just say, you know what?

The way Sam played the last couple weeks, he kind of showed his warts, so to speak, and they'd rather go on with JJ, a young, fresher face, and they like his ability as the prospect of him being a little bit better than Sam. So it's a risky take, but I think Sam is Sam is Sam. I don't think he's going to get much better than what he was last year. You know, I think he's kind of capped out. He's already hit his feeling, and he's not a guy that can really take your team to the championship. He's a guy that can win eight or nine games.

he's probably in a category like Gino Smith and, you know, some of those guys that, you know, you like to have minor teams, but you need to get better to win the last game or win the Super Bowl. Where does Aaron Rogers end up, if anywhere? Well, a lot of talk to him going to the Giants, and I think that would be a good spot. So now the Giants can take one of those big dogs, you know, the punters or the, you know, whoever's out there can really help them. I think that'd be a good fit. Dayball is on his last leg, and I don't think Dayball wants to go on a season.

risking his career on Shador Sanders or somebody like that. So if I was Brian Dayball, I'd go out and get Aaron Rogers for sure and let him play a year or two and try to keep my job and then draft guy late and try to develop somebody else because I'm not sold on any of the quarterbacks in the draft that can come in year one and do something, what J.N. Daniels did. So I would go out and get a veteran guy like that if I was a giant. You know, I think you and I are on the same page

that the Giants roster isn't as bad as everybody thinks it is, and that solid quarterback play, they could be a lot better next year. Do you agree with that or not? Yeah, I do. I think they have some good players. I think defensively, defensively behind, they have good players. They need to upgrade their corner of their secondary. It's horrible.

So if they get their guy like Travis Hunter, Pat Aaron Rogers, had Hunter and Malik neighbors, then play Hunter at Corner. That would be a huge deal for them moving forward. They're not far away. They need a tight end. They need another receiver too. Offensive line, they need upgrade a little bit.

But yeah, you're right. They're not too far away. They do have some holes on their roster that they can fill in three agency in a draft and be competitive right away if they get a quarterback like Aaron Rogers. You don't feel good about any of the quarterbacks, but just out of curiosity, who would be your number one? Ward Sanders, who? Yeah, Cam, for sure.

I don't think it's really close, in my opinion. Yeah, and Cam, you know, Cam has some. She's holding the ball a little bit too long. He's very nonchalant, but he's got a great arm, very talented, smart kid. So yeah, I think Cam's number one. After that, I'd probably go Jackson Dart and then maybe sure. All right. Appreciate it, as always. Good stuff. Talk to you soon. Thanks. All right. Anytime, Kevin. Thank you. Jay Gruden, everybody. We'll look ahead to the draft in more detail with Thor Neistram right after these words from a few of our sponsors. Hey guys, whether you are a do-it-yourselfer or you're like me, you have somebody do it for you most of the time.

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We've had Thor on the show many times over the years. He is a draft analyst with Fantasy Football Weekly. You can follow him on X on Twitter at Thor Koo, T-H-O-R-K-U. Thor is the person that we usually talk to closer to the draft because he does the biggest big board, I think, out there with pro-comps for every player in his top 500 every year. That comes out, I know, closer to the draft. We'll talk about the upcoming draft and even next week in free agency. But as you looked back on 2024, you were there with me on Jaden. You loved him.

You had him as the number two player, I think, on your board behind Caleb Williams. Give me the biggest disappointment for you on your big board in year one, and it's still probably too early. And the one that you're most proud of in terms of where you had him ranked and how he played. The biggest disappointment probably year one, I would say Marvin Harrison, Jr. I was expecting a bit more from him right out the jump, obviously, a long time. to go with his career, but I was a little bit at this point with a slow start. And I guess as far as the pride, Jane Daniels at two, that would certainly be one.

But outside of that, I would say having Cooper DeGine in my top 20 overall, I don't know why the NFL, well, I kind of do. And then Ladd-McConkie at 24 as well, I thought was a good one. Yeah, both of those players played really well. Cooper DeGine, you know, was part of a draft night train. between Washington and Philadelphia. Washington moved back and got, you know, two picks from Philly, but Philly moved up and got Cooper DeGine,

and he had a hell of a year. What did you think of Washington's season, and what is your hunch on what year two with Jaden Daniels will bring? I mean, just incredible, and they had an incredible offseason last year. The draft process, I was just so impressed, you know, from the top to the ball. them through to the UDFAs. They had one of my top UDFA classes.

It was just, it was such a holistic process. And it, you know, it sort of portended to the intelligence of that front office, and you got to see it right away. Washington set up really well here now. Obviously, with the cap space that you have and the draft equity that you have, and not nearly as many holes on that roster as we were thinking a year ago, or as there were a year ago. So, yeah, it's a very bright future there.

All right. So what do you do in the? off season if you're GM. Play Adam Peters here. What are you prioritizing? Well, and one the commander fans have asking about is the running back. That's going to be somebody to be able to

take care of in the draft as far as getting if nothing else, a complimentary guy, if not an L. Wright, replacement for the room you up now. But outside of that, be looking at the trenches, edge offensive tackle. There's been the question about Coleman. You know, is he going to stick at

tackle? If it's me, I would I would kick Coleman inside and look elsewhere for a tackle, but I'm excited about his future. And then outside of that, get a complimentary wider receiver I'd be looking for. Got to get a boundary corner. The playoff game against the Eagles, where you were seeing Santer still just get body by AJ Brown. It's a size disadvantage thing. You've got to move Santer still inside, so hopefully you can get another boundary corner there.

And then maybe outside of that, maybe some linebacker depth. What did you think of the Debo-Samuel trade? That was really interesting. They have been engaging, obviously, for a while, and it heated up right away when we were at the combine. Initially, I thought, you know, what I was hearing was that that was going to be for Jonathan Allen. But I think the financials, there was an issue working that out. So it ended up being for the late-round pick there.

But, yeah, I mean, as far as a one-year flyer, you have the cap space to assume Debo's contract. I thought it was great. And it seems like Debo, it wasn't going the best with him, with Sanford, you know, not getting along with people there. He needed a fresh start and Washington needs someone exactly like him, so it seems like a win-win. What else do you think they'll do starting next week? Bulking up those trenches for sure.

And then the cornerback thing will be interacting to see, do we make a splash there, or is that something that we're going to be looking at at the latter half of the first round? But yeah, that one's going to get a dress one way or the other, so that's what I'd expect. When it comes to corner, so let's just say they move Sanra still inside, which is really where they thought he'd end up, and even during the middle of the season, spoke to that would be the desire. He played well on the outside, and then Marshawn Latimore was traded for. Didn't play well, Thor, as you know, but he was coming off injury and trying to acclimate to a new system. Give me some of the outside corners that you would target if you're Washington and free agency. Yeah, there's a couple, well, in free agency, DJ Ward, you know, I think it's a guy that a lot of people are.

You mean Charverius Award or DJ Reed, which of the two, sorry? DJ Reed, I'm sorry. A little Freudian slip there. That's right. You're going to be in on both of them, yeah. So, yeah, if we could combine them, it'd be a perfect player. But, yeah, both of those guys for sure. Yeah, I expect Washington to talk to both.

Do you expect Cleveland to trade Miles Garrett or not? That was interesting at the combine, too. We have a game of chicken there. Garrett wanted, you know, he wanted them to just start exploring the trade. They told him no. Then he, if I tried to push that thing, obviously, get it out there publicly. And I always told that Cleveland's not trading them unless it's for a package that would be ludicrous. Like, you know, it's something unprecedented.

Senate. Garrett is obviously still pushing for that, and Cleveland is saying no at this time. This thing is going to come to a head. I would lean towards no, just because Cleveland is the one that holds the cards, and they do not want to trade them, and that makes sense why. All right, let's talk draft. Washington's got 29 in the first round, number 29. They've got three picks in the top 89, and then they don't pick again until late on day three, sent that fifth rounder. for Debo and sent picks at the trade deadline for Latimore. So right now, I think the emphasis, Thor has to be defensively. They weren't very good defensively last year,

and yet somehow Jaden was able to strap the team to his back and take them to within 60 minutes of the Super Bowl. In particular, you know, you've mentioned Corner, I think they're going to be looking for an edge that can both stop the run and get after the quarterback. Give me a guy that you really like that you think could be available at 29. I would have said, Shemar Stewart, for this, you know, three weeks ago, but there's no chance he's getting down there now, unfortunately,

with how well he tested. That's a top half of the first round type of a guy. Nick Scorton, potentially, his collegiate teammate, or at least last year, Texas A&M would be a guy potentially that, you know, that's going to get down there, a guy that was being mocked way higher than that, you know, in advance of the past month or so. But he's a power edge that sets that edge for you. And it's sort of the bully ball as a pass rusher.

So you have a two-way guy there. The reason he's falling down, he doesn't have to affect the measurable of some of these other guys. And it's that straight ahead kind of speed the power game with him. But as far as a guy that could get to the end of the first probably will, Scorton would be interesting. thing. James Pears, I mean, this is not a two-way guy, but this is one of the premier pass rushers in this draft, and a guy that reminds me a whole lot of Brian Burns, and also the topical point of what we're talking about, a guy who now appears that he is going to

fall down there. James Pears, you look at a year ago in May, coming out of the last draft, the two early mock draft, he was in the top 10 of every single one of them, the top five of them, and he was the number one overall player on a few of them. It's just, it's the pass rushing utility is incredible within the speed rush thing. He's not going to set the edge for you. He's skinny. And we've heard whispers about, you know, is he as engaged

and locked in inside the building? You know, when working stuff like that, that stuff is going to have to be vetted. But as far as you're getting that really cool trick, getting the heat off, the quarterback off the edge, James Pierce, I think he's going to be a great value at the end of the first. Does Mike Green from Marshall

make it to the end of the first round? That is a very interesting question, and I think that's going to come down to the character stuff and the background information that teams do, just the physical abilities, and what we saw in the field last year, seeing him down at the senior ball, that sort of stuff, that's a guy that should go in the top half of the first round. But there are still questions about the circumstances surrounding why he left Virginia after his freshman season. I know that teams are looking into that. I know the teams are asking him about that. If he is cleared on that,

you know, he's going to end up going higher than that. But yeah, I mean, it's one of those interesting questions in the draft where if a guy falls to you only because of a character thing, or we could even say medical. I mean, you talk about the cornerbacks, Morrison and Ravel, you know, it's just a different scenario there. But a guy

who falls down because the NFL, they're concerned about one area of the evaluation. Can you become more comfortable than the rest of the NFL, or at least at the price point where you would be making that decision. Yeah, I think if we take year one as a lesson on what Washington's going to be looking for, the raw athletic scores, relative athletic scores are going to be very high, and the leadership culture piece, you know, they, seven of their nine picks last year were team

captains from college teams. So that's something that might, it sounds like cross a guy like Green who I think looks great on tape off their list. What about a tackle at 29? If, you know, you're right, and there have been many to suggest the possibility of Brandon Coleman moving inside, can they get a starting tackle at the end of the first round? I believe so, yes, because to me, there's six at least that I would say

that I'd be comfortable that can go in and step in and start right away. you know, Campbell Banks, obviously, Josh Simmons, if you're comfortable with the medical. That's just something. Yeah, the Ohio State kid. Josh Connerly, Jr. from Oregon is the tremendous athlete. And then M. Bao from Missouri, with how well he not only tested but measured in, he has the wingspan that's the now, he has the exact same wingspan at Simmons,

and it's just south of Connerley. So people talk about his height, but he did come in a little bit above 6'4. He's actually only 5-8ths of an inch shorter than Josh Simmons, for instance, three inches, three-tenths – I'm sorry, three-eighths of an inch shorter than Connerally. So it's – and he weighs 20 pounds more than those guys. So it's the size thing. He has muted that a little bit with the measurements as far as the wingspan, the arm length, and then his athletic scores, you know, you were talking about that.

That's a 98-percentile athlete, and that was great last year in the SEC as a third-year starter, still young. The last one I would toss out at Arionte Ursari from Minnesota, a big guy who moves around pretty well. He tested pretty well. Ersery did. And I think that's a guy at the end of the first round that you can pick that we'll be able to step in and start right away. I just like his movement skills at that size. This is a tough one to answer, but I just want your hunch. They take – they're going to take best player available.

They did it in the second round with Johnny Newton when they didn't appear, you know, at least. at the moment to need a defensive tackle. At 29, what position group do you think just a hunch would produce the best player available? Probably be interior defensive lines just because of how stacked that is, you know, if you were just like looking at a one-off there. But I tackle, I think you're still going to have those, that bucket of players that I'm talking about, you're still going to have access to at least one of those guys. And I think cornerback is interesting, talking about the late end of the first round because of those couple guys I mentioned that are coming off the season-ending injuries that might provide you a sticker price discount on what they otherwise, where they otherwise would have gone.

Like a Will Johnson? Well, Will Johnson? Yeah, I mean, that guy, you would think he'd go higher, but now there is some talk, you know, that he could fall a little bit, could lead to a trade-up possibility. There's no way he's getting to the end of where Washington sits now. but two guys that absolutely could Benjamin Morrison and Notre Dame if Benjamin Morrison had stayed healthy his whole career as opposed to having the hip injury last year that's a guy that's going in the top half of the first round

he was dominant whenever he was out there NFL bloodlines and he's big enough and then the other one Chavonne Ravel from East Carolina he's gotten a lot of comps that Tareke Wollen and a physical freak Morrison coming off the hip injury

Morrison coming up or I'm sorry Revelle coming off the Diener injury, you got to be comfortable with those, your medical staff does. But if they are, I think good values there. By the time we get to late April, how do you think the wide receivers will stack on your board? I don't love this wide receiver class. Yeah, I mean, McMillan, I think is a legitimate top 10 talent. I know some people don't like McMillan as much.

I do like McMillan. After that, you start to get some questions. Obviously, Golden jumped up with the 429 that he ran. he's going to be in contention for wide receiver two. Luther Burden's coming up the poor season. Is he a manufactured touch guy? Can he win down field at all? He's a slot either way.

I'm at G. Bucca, another slot, but you're looking at like a JSM-type efficiency guy for your offense. And then after that, you're getting into the question, guys. You know, Alec, I'm a minority. He didn't come from a great passing offense. Trey Harris from Ole Miss. It was just the first rethink. So he has great stats, but they pounded him with targets because, you know, the offense that he played in.

You're talking about these guys who have, you know, acute questions with their evaluation. So this is the year for the running back. We have the best class that we've had in a decade plus. The receiver class, though, this is down relative to what we have seen recently. Who do you think the comp for Luther Burden will be when you get to it? Interestingly enough, I currently have him comp to Mr. Debo Samuel. Really?

But he's not as physical. and is punishing. He's great after the catch. Don't get me wrong. But Debo's like in a category that it's hard to comp him to, isn't it? Yeah, it's, yeah, I'm thinking more of the manufacturer

and the touches for a guy who's really good at the ball in his hand. But you're right. I mean, Debo has more of the physicality, whereas Burden has a little bit more electricity with the movement. But you're right, it's not a perfect apples to apples, but the usage of where you shuttle them the ball,

and then that yards after the catch utility, was sort of where I was going with that one. I actually was thinking just because he just got released. I thought somebody like Tyler Lockett might be a comp for him. Yeah, the only thing with Lockett is, you know, and you go back to Kansas State when he was coming out of the Big 12, like a guy that could win, you know, even at the smaller package, but boundary receiver, the release package off the line,

and then the ability to get free and then win down field. That's something with burden we haven't seen quite as much. And people with, you know, with his evaluation, you see some people making, I guess you would say a logical leap, I think, as opposed to a projection of saying, well, I love his movement skills. So if we put him out there on the boundary, I'm sure he'd get off the line. I'm sure he creates separation. But it's something that we didn't see in college just because of the way he was used in that system.

So it's not something that I can keep. get there with on that. For me, he's the slot guy that we're finding the touches for it to get him the ball on his hands and create, you know, the yards after the catch magic. I think a really good fit for him would be Arizona. You have the boundary receivers in place. You have the tight end in place that'll take attention off him in the intermediate range. And so it's a guy that will be getting, he's not going to get any extra coverage help and he can just beat people over the middle. You know, I think Trey McBride, honestly, is one of the most

under the radar great players in the NFL. When you just said, Arizona tight end, I don't think a lot of NFL fans, especially those that focus on their own team, realize how good he is. He had 110 plus catches last

year and missed, I think, a game or two. Yeah, it's just because of the fantasy thing, right? Because he didn't have the touchdowns. Right. He's like, I think of him like a watchmaker. You know, it's like the exact, you know, to the foot, not to the yard, to the foot of where you want him to get to break out on his route on the field. He's going to get that.

It's going to be the clean cut out. He always makes himself available for the quarterback, gives him the easy throwing windows. He would be a really fun guy to work with and hopefully we can get a more touchdown next season. All right. You talked about the running backs. Let's finish with that. How many of them go in the first round? I'm going to say two right now, but I would be closer to one and a half than two and a half if we were getting off that number.

Okay, so Gentie and who else? Gentie and probably Omari in Hampton after the 9-6-1 Razz at 221, the 4-4-6, 40, yeah. Give me other guys that you like that could be, you know, Washington might be in the market for running back. very possible. They will be in the draft. Not, I don't think, at 29 overall, but maybe night two, or when we get to day three, right now they've just got a sixth and two sevenths. Give me the backs that you like going after, you know, the top three or four. Yeah, I got a couple names for you. Caleb Johnson from Iowa. I really like his game. It's a pure zone runner, but he is really, really good at it. All those concepts. And racked up, I think,

90th percent out breakaway rate last year. Devin Neil, he was 220 pounds in Mobile at the senior ball. He has some of the best feet you will ever see for a back that is over 215 pounds, and he's going to be a better receiver in the NFL than he was at Kansas. They used him as a dump-off guy there, didn't let him run as many routes. In the NFL, I think you're going to see him creating stuff. We saw this in Mobile, the route that they let him do beyond the line of scrimmage and the limited stuff we saw at Kansas.

he will shake you. And he's super duper reliable. Another guy that's kind of under the radar a bit, Damien Martinez from Miami. Love him. He's my guy. You're with me, Kevin? Yeah, love him.

Oh, awesome, dude. We are the same page. I love talking to Damian Martinez down in Mobile, and I loved watching him over the previous couple of years. We have seen him in multiple systems, right? Like at Oregon State, it was the downhill physical thing. Damien Martinez, fight people off of you. at Miami he got to go into the air raid where it was the thinner boxes.

It's a different skill set that you're using there, but he was incredible this past year. I don't think people realize how good, 91.1 PFF rushing grade, because that team was throwing more, and they would do a little committee stuff with their running back. So the counting stats weren't as much. But for a big back, I was talking about Devin Neil, the feet he has in that big package, Damien Martinez is the same kind of a dude. It's a big back with really, really good feet, and he is a better athlete. I think that people realize 9-3-2 RAS for Damian Martinez.

He has a top 10 back all day in this class who has not gotten the credit that he deserves to this point. Yeah, I went to look immediately for his RAS score to see if it was good enough for Washington to consider him, and it was very good. I think he's one of the best vision backs and has been for the last two years in the country. And by the way, can catch the ball too. really like him. Didn't get those opportunities as much at Oregon State, but I think he can catch the football out of the backfield.

All right. Great job. Good to catch up. Would love to do it again. I know you're super busy around draft time, but I'll reach out. I always have time for you, Kevin. Great talking to you. Thor Neistram, everybody.

Really like Thor. He's an excellent guest at Thor K-H-O-R-K-U on X on Twitter. Thor does such a great job. We've had him on, I don't know, three or four years running in the spring leading up to the draft. And his big board that he puts together prior to the draft with pro-comps for every player is always an interesting read. All right, that's it for the day back tomorrow with Tommy.