The Kevin Sheehan Show - Jay Gruden On Heinicke

Episode Date: October 26, 2022

Kevin with two guests today including Jay Gruden and Ben Standig. Lots on Heinicke, the news of Chase Young's delayed return, and much more on the Commanders, the Colts, and the NFL with both Jay and Ben. Kevin also talked some Wizards and Commanders' defense to start.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Cheyenne Show is Kevin. Two guests on the show today. Neither one of them is Chris Cooley. Cooley's flying back from Wyoming to here to D.C. for the weekend for a friend's wedding.

So he's not going to be on the show today. We'll figure out when he can jump on. There's a possibility he'll be on with me Friday and maybe either Monday or Tuesday. I will see him this weekend. He is going to play golf. with me tomorrow and I think he might even be staying at my house at some point over the weekend. But he is back in town for this wedding and we just have to figure out what makes sense for him to jump on the podcast. But Jay Gruden will be on with me coming up in the next segment.

And then after that, Ben Standing will be on the show as well. And the reason I asked Ben to jump on is there was some news today from Ashburn. J.P. Finley this morning. reported that Chase Young, who is expected to practice today and begin that 21-day clock of being activated off the injured reserve or off that preseason pup list, Chase Young is not going to practice today. The team source that JP had said there's no setback necessarily, but don't expect the clock to start today, meaning no practice today. The team wants to be cautious and have one more doctor visit. Uh-oh. That's my reaction to it. We'll find out what Ben thinks after we talk to Jay Gruden coming up in the next segment. We'll see if Ben thinks it's a reason to be concerned.

Look, this was more than just an ACL. This was a complicated repair of the ACL. We've known that now for a few months. And when Ron Rivera said at the beginning of training camp, you know, he's probably not going to be back until week six, thinking the injured reserve thing was a six-week thing when it was a four-week thing. We knew that it was going to be at least six weeks. They're going to take this slowly. My expectations, since Ron said that, were very low for Chase Young this year. You know, we went from having this offseason of talking about how big of a year it was going to be for Chase Young, assuming that he would be healthy and ready to go, to now really looking at next year as the big year for Chase Young. There's only so much you can expect because by the time he

gets back, they're going to be halfway through the season. And they're going to take it slowly with him as well. But we'll find out more from Ben when we talk to him. There is something specific to the Washington defense that I want to talk about here in the open of the show. I'll get to that in a few minutes and then we'll get to Jay Gruden and to Ben Standig. Real quickly, the Wizards beat the Pistons last night, 120 to 99. Detroit stinks, I understand that. Indiana, the team they beat in the opener, isn't very good. They did beat Chicago on Friday night. They lost to Cleveland in overtime. We're going to know a lot more about the Wizards in a week or two after they go through a stretch of Boston, Philadelphia, twice, Brooklyn, and Memphis. My God, has John Morant been tearing up

this league so far this year? I think he's averaging like 36 a game. He had near 50 last week. Against Houston, understood, but they beat Brooklyn the other night, and he had like 38. Anyway, I'm getting sidetracked. I have an early hunch, and I'm sure I'll end up being wrong, about the Wizards. I think they're going to end up being better than most people think. Now, what does that mean? I don't know, 42, 43, 44 wins and pushing that six seed in the east, being in contention for it. Most people have them in contention for the play-in round. So 7 through 10, and not everybody had them making that play-in round, and what is a very deep eastern conference. There are a couple of signs early. Health will be everything. Obviously,

you know, Porzingis and Beal being healthy for them will be critical. But if those two players are healthy, and Beale had some back tightness last night, actually missed some of the game, only played 22 minutes. But assuming that those two players play a lot of games, you know, 72 games plus and are healthy, they've got some really good supporting pieces. Kyle Kuzma's a really good player. He really is. I don't know what happened in L.A. It's a weird situation with LeBron. Kuzma here has been terrific. He had 25 last night, six rebounds. Didn't knock down a three, but man, every time he shoots it's a good stroke. I think it's going in. Abdea is an outstanding defensive player.

I mean, he really shut Kate Cunningham down for the most part last night. And then they've got a really good combination of players that they can work in for either significant minutes, like the minutes that Will Barton played last night, and I love Barton's game so far. Man, you learn a lot when you watch these players night in and night out versus just seeing them occasionally or in the postseason. You learn the most about players in the postseason.

And Will Barton's a better ball handler than I thought. He's a better passer than I thought. He also shot it really well last night. I've seen him shoot it well before. He had 16 points last night, four assists. I think it was two steals and two blocks in like less than 30 minutes. And he made, I think it was four for six from behind the arc. He's a good player.

Gafford is a good player. Dilan Wright is a good defender and a good player. Hachamur is a good player with big time upside. I don't know. I think that they are better than most believe they are. That's it on the Wizards. That's it. I wanted to talk about the Washington defense. And what got me thinking about the Washington defense is some of their lofty rankings in various areas right now through seven games. But this was Aaron Rogers yesterday on his weekly appearance on the Pat McAfee show. A quick pivot back to the Washington game.

What exactly you think? What were they doing defense? I give their defense credit honestly. What were they doing, I guess, to give you guys a tough time for your offense? Nothing. Then what was it? People are going to be so mad with your answer. So mad about it.

Look, I mean, they didn't have to do anything. They played a rush four guys. They played the cover four. They sprinkled a couple weak inserts and a couple man coverages. That was it. So what do you think it is? They got good players. But as far as like schematically, what did they do?

Just lined up and played. Think whatever you want about the way Aaron Rogers answered that and the giggles from the gallery. You know, if you think it was condescending or it was slighting of Washington's defense, I don't really think it was. I think he's just very frustrated with his own team right now. And look, I mean, it's a compliment to Washington right now. if they don't have to be, you know, fancy schematically to generate pressure or to stop the run. You know, if you can get pressure with four guys and you don't have to crowd the box to stop the run,

that is a defensive coordinator's dream. But the Aaron Rogers comments on the McAfee show yesterday got me to thinking about what this defense is right now. Is it a good defense or does it just look good because of the opponents that they have faced recently? and I looked into this a little bit and I just want to share some of my thoughts on this. I actually think right now they're a pretty good defense. They have good players up front. It's really hard to deny that John Allen, Duran Payne, and Montez Sweat, first round picks aren't playing excellent football and that we didn't think they were capable of playing this kind of football.

Allen's done it, you know, for a couple of years running. Duran Payne's having his best season, contract year, and Montez Sweat has really stepped it up. up this season. Jamon Davis is talented. He's an athlete. He is playing better football. Cole Holcomb is okay. The secondary has clearly improved with, you know, sort of the addition by subtraction. No William Jackson, Benjamin St. Chuse playing in a position that really suits his talent, being a long-armed, you know, physical outside corner. And Wild Goose from a coverage standpoint has looked pretty good in the slot. Again, that's more of a recent thing with Wild Goose, of the coverage thing. I think their safeties are playing well. You know, McCain and Forreston,

Curl. I mean, we've known for a while that Curl is a good player, and we've known since McCain arrived here that the coaching staff looks and views him as a very high IQ kind of coach on the field in the secondary. But I looked at a few things that I want to share with you. Number one is this. Washington right now is the number two third down defense in the league. Number two, 29.6% conversions by their opponents on third down. Second only to Tennessee in the league right now. Last year, 31st out of 32 teams at one point dead last, horrible third down defense. Big concern in the offseason, big concern early in the year, in the preseason, etc.

Washington number two third down defense in the league. That is a traditional statistic that says a lot. When you are getting teams off the field on third down, your chances of being a good defense have risen significantly. There's more, though. I use that DVOA football outsider stat a lot. One of the reasons I like the DVOA number is because it takes context into all of these numbers. It puts context to the numbers. You know, performance by a team is

adjusted based on the quality of the opponent. Performance on a given play is adjusted based on the situation that it was. You know, a third and 12, nine-yard checkdown pass is viewed much differently by DVOA and football outsiders than a third and three completion for a first down. The latter is more valuable. Remember, we had the guy from football outsiders on to explain a lot of that last year, I think it was. So if you look at DVOA right now, Washington is the number 16 defense in the league. However, they've got the fourth ranked rush defense in the league. Fourth. So that's what I want to look at, because when I say they're a good defense right now, and it's not just who they've There's this thought about how I thought they were getting better against Philadelphia,

how they played well enough to beat Dallas, how they played well against Tennessee, and how they played very well the last two weeks. But their rush defense has been outstanding since week two. Really, really good. Here are a couple of things to consider, you know, taking Green Bay and Tennessee and Chicago out of the equation. Against Philadelphia, they held the Eagles to set up. 72 yards rushing, 2.4 yards per carry. Philadelphia's two games leading into Washington, they had rushed for 216 yards against Detroit and 163 against Minnesota, 5.5 and 4.8 yards per carry

respectively. And then in the game after rushing for just 72 yards and 2.4 yards per carry against Washington, they rushed for 210 against Jacksonville. Washington is the only team to have shut Philadelphia down as a rush football team, which Philadelphia is first and foremost. Move to Dallas. When they played Dallas in Dallas, they held Zeke and Pollard to 2.1 yards per carry. 2.1, 62 yards total rushing in that game the Cowboys had. The game before the game against Washington, they rushed for 176 yards against the

Giants on Monday night football. 5.9 yards per carry. In the game after Washington, they rushed for 163 yards against the Rams, Aaron Donald and the Rams, 4.8 yards per carry. They held Tennessee to 3.3 yards per carry, even though Derek Henry went over 100 yards. They are an outstanding rush defense. This was a big concern of mine, if you remember, before the season started. I was very concerned that last year they played all these pass offenses, all these great quarterbacks. And this year, they were going to face a bunch of teams that were run first teams. And I was concerned because I thought last year, even though the rush numbers weren't terrible, I think they were seventh DVOA, I thought that

there were a couple of instances when teams wanted to run it, they did run it. And I wasn't sure what they were going to be at the linebacker position. So I was concerned. They've been an outstanding rush defense. And by the way, they're going to play Jonathan Taylor this week. And then they're going to play Dalvin Cook the week after. And then they're going to play Philadelphia again on a Monday night. They're playing teams that can run the football coming up. Now, Minnesota is much more multi. So is Philadelphia than what we think Sam Ealinger and the Colts are going to be on Sunday. But Washington is a good defense right now because they are a very good rush defense right now. And if you can stop the run in the NFL, even in a passing league,

and make teams one-dimensional, you've got a chance to really succeed defensively. Teams had Washington off balance all year long last year. So did Jacksonville to a certain degree, and so did Detroit in the first two games. Not the last five games. They have shut down the run, and they have shut down good run teams. 38 yards Sunday, Green Bay had rushing the football. They really didn't even try to run the football against Washington. It is a lot about the front four and about those two D tackles in particular, but it's also about sweat who's been outstanding against the run,

and Holcomb and Davis in particular who have gotten better week by week. And by the way, Cam Curl, who, whose return, by the way, sort of coincided with the beginning of playing better defense. We understand that. Jackson's exit coincided with them playing better defense. And let's not forget that Sam Mills III, who was fired during training camp, was replaced by Coach Z, who they love, and Ryan Carrigan, who got a full-time job as a coach on the staff. Time will tell, obviously, as to whether or not this is a good defense or not.

I'm not saying it's a great defense. DVOA-W-W-A-wise, they're six. They're right in the middle of the league. But I do think that they are an outstanding rush defense. And they're playing the Colts with Jonathan Taylor, Dalvin Cook, the Eagles. Then the Texans, by the way, the Texans with their rookie running back have run the football. Well, Damien Pierce has done a really good job this year. I think he's approaching 500 or 600 yards in six games at this point or seven games. How many Houston's played?

They get Atlanta, remember, with a dual threat quarterback and with some good running backs, including Cordarell Patterson and Tyler Algier, the guy that I loved coming out of BYU. And then they get Cleveland later in the year, San Francisco later in the year. Who knows? Maybe their rush defense ultimately is the story of their year with some of the teams that they are playing. If they can turn those rush-first teams into one-dimensional teams,

give your team a really good chance. Jay Gruden will join us next right after these words from a few of our sponsors. Don't forget to rate us and review us, especially on Apple and Spotify, five stars, if you're so inclined in a quick one to two sentence review, especially on Apple, really helps us out. Back on the podcast and thrilled to have him back is Jay Gruden, the former head coach of the Washington Redskins. I do have a lot of Washington questions for you. I'm assuming that you watch the game Sunday, right?

I did, yes. Okay, so I've got a lot of NFL stuff I want to get to, but I want to start with what did you think of Taylor Heineke on Sunday? Well, I think Taylor played like Taylor. You know, I think he had his up and downs, and, you know, he started out wolfily slow, had a couple really bad balls at a fumble that would have been picked up for a touchdown of not for a horrible holding call.

But he bounced back, typical He just keeps grinding, keeps playing hard, and made some plays when it counted, made some great throws when it really mattered, and got the victory. So I got to plot them. So what's the best that fans of this team can hope for if he's the starting quarterback the rest of the way? Well, I think you're going to have to just live with some of his errant throws from time to time. but you're going to get a tough, gritty quarterback

that's going to try to find ways to move the chains with his legs, scramble around, make some pros tough, mentally, tough, physically, tough kid. But, you know, you're going to have to rely on your defense to play well. I don't think they're ever going to score 35 points, and he's going to throw for 350 yards. But they can win, and they can win ugly, and he can make enough plays to

move the chains and help the team win. It was very similar the way they won Sunday. I mean, obviously Aaron Rogers and Green Bay were super limited offensively, and we'll get to them in a few minutes. But it was very similar with how they won those four games last year to get to six and six. You know, they had many more plays. It was 71 to 47 in plays. They dominated time of possession because of that. They ran the ball more than they threw it. And I'm wondering if

you think that that is a more comfortable formula for Scott Turner, who maybe with Carson Wentz, was more inclined to figure out how to push the ball down the field more? Well, I think the issues with Carson, they were three for 22, their last 25 third down. And when you're three for 22, that means you're punning or you're off the field and you're not maintaining any drives your night. It's not able to run the ball. If you're converting third downs, you're able to get more plays in and you keep your defense fresh. And Heineke gives you a little bit more freedom to get first downs on third down because he can run.

And I don't know what happened to Carson as far as his injury. concerned with his back and his knee, but he wasn't quite as mobile as he was when he was a rookie or second year in Philadelphia. But Heineke gives you that mobility factor that you have to have in pro football. If you're not a great pocket passer, you better be able to move. And Tyler does, Taylor does give you that ability to run. So what is it like for Turner, do you think? Do you think, let's just say that he was excited because he did say, you know, during the off season, you know, our depth of throws wasn't, you know, wasn't good enough. And now we've got the ability to push the ball down the field. And, you know, he had, you know, more weapons. They added Dotson. They had Samuel coming

back. And yet it wasn't successful. Do you think, do you think he's back into, do you think it's disappointing for him to not be able to push the ball down the field? Or do you think that this is actually just a formula he realizes is the best formula for this team to be competitive? What would it be like for you? Well, you have to adapt to the quarterback that you have. Well, you have to adapt to the quarterback you have. You can't call these deep shots. If you quarterback can't get it to the field. But, His arm isn't that bad. He did throw a good goal to Terry McCorn in touchdown,

so it's not like he's got a pop-gun arm, but he doesn't have an arm like Wentz. It's not like Wentz was completing deep ball after deep ball either. So sometimes these intermediate passes, the ability to keep drives alive is more beneficial to your team because you're keeping your defense fresh. You've got to rely on your defense. If your defense is out there 75 or 80 plays, you're going to struggle.

I mean, so the ability to keep your defense fresh, keep these drives alive with Carson, and they weren't able to move the ball 80 yards in 15 plays with Heineke to have that opportunity because of his ability to run and convert third down. You know, you mentioned the throw to Terry for a touchdown. That was, you know, that's a good throw. It's 40-something plus yards in the air from wherever his, you know, drop point was. But tell me what you think.

Like last year, I think he made several of those throws to the pylon, to the flag, that were one-on-one coverages where either it was going to be caught or it was going to be incomplete, where he was able to put air under it, throw it with more touch. And that that was different than when he had to thread the needle in a tight window across the middle of the field. I mean, there were throws he made to DeAndre Carter in the end zone last year to Terry on those kind of touch throws. I don't know if I'm making sense to you right now, but I think that that kind of throw is the throw he can make. it's the ones in tight windows that are more difficult. Oh, yeah, for sure.

And that is a fact. But I think he's going to get more one-on-one coverage is because teams are going to want to load the box and try to stop throwing enforcement and throw the ball down the field. So he'll get more of those opportunities where Carson probably saw a little bit more coverage, more too deep and some deeper coverage where they were making him check it down. Eineke, they're going to make him throw it over the top. So he's going to have to complete three or four of those a game for this offense

to be successful moving forward. I'll net it out on Heineke. Do you think right now the team will be back in the quarterback market in the offseason? Well, I think it's pointing that way, you know, unless Taylor just has a heck of a run here. But, you know, I think you're always in the market for a quarterback when you're making quarterback changes midseason via injury or lack of success. It's hard to find them. And I think you find one in a draft that's going to be difficult. Where they're going to pick is going to be hard.

You got out first two picks, typically, great quarterbacks available. But free agents, I don't know who's going to be free. You're always looking for a quarterback, but they're hard to find. Did you watch Kenny Pickett the other night for the Steelers? Yeah, yeah, I did watch Kenny. Kenny's, you know, he's going through some rookie tough times, but I think he's got the tools to be successful. You know, he's got a decent arm.

He can move around a little bit. So I think they're going to go through some growing pains right now, but I think he has the ability, I think it's worse. the opportunity to give to him right now moving forward for the next couple years. I agree with that. We're talking to Jay Gruden. Gibson or Robinson is a question that I've been talking about on the radio show a lot and even on the podcast. I think Gibson looks really good, and I'm wondering why he doesn't get at least the same number of touches that Robinson Jr. gets. And I know that it's a great story with Robinson Jr., and he may turn out to be much better than Gibson.

I think Gibson's one of the best players on the team right now. What do you think? I agree. I think Antonio gives you a lot of flexibility, man. They put him out of empty. They run corner out with them. He's a pretty explosive guy with the ball in his hand. I know he's had a couple fumbles in the past, but I think you're right on, given those

guys similar type touches because of his explosion's ability to get out of the backfield and catch the ball as well. I also think, Jay, that people keep harping on the fact that, you know, he's great in space. Well, that's obvious. But even between the tackles, he moves the pile forward. I mean, he's a good yards after contact runner. He's a big guy. He's a big guy. He can run between the tackles. He can get outside. I agree with you. I don't know what put him out of favor. I know what they like Robinson, but this guy's six foot one, 225 pounds. I mean, he's a physical runner, and he can run fast outside. So, you know, I know the fumble issues and all

that stuff, but I agree. I think you should get more touches as well. What do you think they're going through defensively right now out in Nashburn trying to prepare for Indianapolis with Sam Aylinger at quarterback? They've got to stop the run. It's going to be all about, you know, running a football of Jonathan Taylor. He's back healthy. Obviously, Heinz comes in there and gives them some flash runs, some RPO's and things of that nature. But, you know, I think you have to stack the box and then play a little tighter coverage in the back end. similar to what the Indianapolis will probably do to Heineke.

I think it'll be two similar game plans defensively for these defensive coaches to try to stop the run and force these guys to throw it. What do you do when you go into a game and you're playing a quarterback that you don't know anything about? Well, you play your system. I know that Del Rio likes to play more coverage, but I think they might have to just play a little more single high this week to try to stop Jonathan Taylor and force this guy. See what he has.

They can always resort back to. their coverage, their quarter-quarter halves, and their two deep coverages, if he starts hurting them with the ball down the field of Paris Campbell or Alex Pierce, but they're Michael Pittman. But I think initially the game plan is, let's see what this guy can do throwing the ball. We're going to stop Jonathan Taylor. We're not going to let Jonathan Taylor beat us. We're going to see if this Ellinger guy can throw it.

Can you remember any game where you guys went into a game facing a quarterback that had not taken an NFL snap before and how it worked out? I think we played Jacksonville and they played the quarterback from USC. I forgot his name. He was a rookie or second year guy. He wasn't very good. We didn't really were concerned about headbeaten us with his arm, very similar to what I think a lot of teams do with Sam for the first couple weeks.

Stop the run, stop the run, stop the run, force us got to throw it. Let's the heck out of him on third down see if he can handle the pressure. You told me one of the last times that we spoke that when you got here in 2014 that the big surprise for you was Jordan Reed, that you had not evaluated him very highly, and that you knew the first time you saw him, you had something really, really special, and that he was going to be really, really good for you. What did you, and I may have asked you this in the past, but refresh my memory. When did you know that you had something really good in Terry McLaren? Rookie minicamp, OTAs, when he first got here.

We really had a good inkling about Terry when we saw him at the Senior Bowl. His college tape was good. It wasn't spectacular like it was at the Senior Bowl. You know, his speed, his ability to just burst out of his cuts. His hands were a lot better than we thought as well. We thought he struggled catching the ball at college at Ohio State, like double catching some balls, but didn't have that issue in training camp, didn't have it at the rookie minicamp. And he's very smart, very competitive.

He'll block. He'll run the deep balls. he'll run a short passes. He'll block for the bubble screens if you want to throw it to us, you know, a more shifty guy. Just some all-around great guy, great player. You know, it's funny because I think I've said this to you before, and if I haven't, I remember that preseason. And, you know, it wasn't clear to everybody that Terry McLorn was going to end up being what he was in the opener against Philadelphia with Case Keenum when he caught a long bomb. And then, you know, Keenham overthrew him on another one that would

have been a touchdown. And he had that breakout game. But you guys, new going into it. But did you expect him right from the jump to be as productive as he was? Actually, we did. You know, we didn't play him in the preseason. We tried to hide him a little bit and unleash him week one against him. He did do that. And, you know, the type of guy is if he's just ever around Terry, and the focus that he has, his ability to just work hard, focus. And every route that he runs is like it's his last route he's ever going to run. It's just a pleasure to have a guy like that. He rubs off on the other guys, even though he was a rookie.

He was like a veteran receiver. Everybody looked up to him, and we knew that we had something special when we got him. I'm curious, too, you said you had him at the Senior Bowl, but had the process of looking at Dwayne started at that point? Or, you know, you've told the story many times about how clearly the owner influenced the pick. But did you, were you guys asked to really evaluate Haskins and look at Haskins? And did that perhaps lead to you stumbling upon Terry? Or is it just that you're always going to evaluate Ohio State receivers?

Always going to evaluate Ohio State receivers. They had Paris Campbell as well. Yeah, right. Those two guys were, they were unbelievable. They had some weapons. The running backs were great at that time. They had just weapons all across the board. So Ohio State, Alabama, those are two teams you're going to look at extensively.

everybody. Yeah, I mean, that team had Dobbins on it, that last team. Yeah, Campbell. I'm forgetting somebody, too, who's in the NFL. All right. Oh, one last one on Terry, because I did this on the radio show this morning. Do you think Terry McClarn's the best player on the team? I think he's probably the most valuable just because of the type of character that he has to go along with the skill that he has. You know, that's a hard combination to find. The leadership, the mental toughness, the physical toughness. So, yes, you want all your players to be like Terry McLaren. I mean, just because of the type of guy that he is, he's going to come every day to practice, practice hard.

He's going to be accountable in the games. You're never going to be late. He's just the perfect guy to have on your football team, the skill and the leadership qualities that he has. If you take that out of the equation, and I know it's very important, character, et cetera, and the kind of fit he is for the locker room, just straight pound for pound the best football player on the team him john allen sweat pain you know is would you still take terry uh you know i i would choose defense alignment first probably but but you just still need the explosion you know to have a receiver that can go deep and take the pop off and also be a physical

guy in a running game the versatility that terry has is critical in my opinion so i'd still probably take Terry first, but I would have to have major discussions with Payne and Allen as well. What do you make? And the way Sweat's playing is Sweets playing is tail off right now, too. He's got to be in the conversation. In that draft, you guys really liked Sweat. I know, I think you liked Savage, too, the safety you ended up in Green Bay from Maryland, but has Sweat turned in, or is he starting to turn into the player that you thought you drafted?

Yeah, absolutely. You know, I think when you have a guy that has his size and, ran, I think you ran 4 at the combine. Yeah. Yeah, six foot six long, can play the run. And obviously the ability to rush the pasture when you're playing against back Prescott of the world, you've got to be able to get out for the quarterback. And Montez brings that quality that you have to have on your football team. Just to be clear on this, because I think I've asked you this before,

but at 15 that year, you took Askins. But if the football people had had their choice, would it have been sweat there or savage? Probably sweat, just because we need another pass rusher. And rushing the passers key. But Savage was also a good pick for us because he could play nickel. We thought he could play safety. He's very versatile. He could run.

He could hit. So, yeah, there was two good options. But we needed a quarterback. So it wasn't the end. You know, so we took the wane. Allen in pain right now, I mean, the years they're having, none of that surprises you, does it? No, not at all. Not at all. Jonathan, we didn't think any way that Jonathan would drop to us when he dropped to us.

We thought that he'd be gone. And when he was there, it was just hurry up and sign the letter and send it into the draft board. So, yeah, that was the easiest pick I think we had in the draft since I was there. And Paines, do you think he'll get paid big time in this offseason? I think he will. Like I said, these guys are hard to find. These big defense alignment can move. He can play the run.

He can play at a two-gap system. he can play in a gap system where he can get up the field. So I think his versatility, nose guard, three technique, he can do it all. And those are hard to find. Defense alignment or diamond. People say they're a diamond dozen, but they're not. I mean, great defense alignment. It can rush a pass or play the run or critical to have on your football team.

All right. Let's talk about some of the other teams in the league. Why are the Giants six and one? They're playing great team football. You know, I think the Giants and Daniel Jones is playing as good as any quarterback in league right now. It's hard to imagine his first couple starts, his first couple years he struggled, but he's still in the ball well

and he's running. He had 100 yards rushing last week, which, I mean, that's crazy. You know, nobody really thought he was that athletic. I didn't think he was that athletic. I knew he was athletic, but the rush for 100 yards in NFL game, never would have thought that. So, yeah, I think they're doing that. Saquan Barkley is as good a back as

there is in football. Their offensive lines playing well, they're not turning the ball over, and their defense has really turned the corner. I mean, they weren't a very good defense last year, and they're playing good defense, they're getting turnovers, and they're not turning them all over, and Daniel Jones is playing extremely well. You know who's playing well, and I failed to mention this at all this week, but for those that didn't see the Jacksonville game, the final pass of the game from Trevor Lawrence went to the goal line, just short of the goal line, and the guy that

made this the game-saving tackle was Fabian Moreau. You know, I always thought Fabian was a guy who could really run and was long, and I thought he'd turn into a better corner. What did you think of him when you had him. And he's a big part of what the Giants are doing right now. Yeah, we like Fabian. He came out. He played running back at UCLA. Then they transferred him to corner. And, you know, he had an injury, so we thought we had the red shirt of maybe. But he came and played his first year. We knew he'd be a great special teamer because he could run him. He could run him. Great flyer. We thought he'd develop into a starting corner in NFL, which he has. You know, he just had trouble every now and then he'd get a little grabby with his hands.

He'd get a lot of holding calls. He didn't trust his speed or physicality at the line of screen. but he is physical at the line of scrimmage and he can really run. But just learning the nuances of the coverages and the quarters and the quarter quarter half and the and the man of man's and the techniques and learning how to use your leverage. But to have a guy that can run like that and can be physical like that, you're going to work with guys like that and get them to benefit out and get them on the field. So what does the NFC East look like to you? How do you think it'll flush out at the end?

I think Dallas is still the team to beat. I think the Giants are a great story, obviously. Philadelphia is playing great overall team offense and defense, but Dallas is still with that coming back, I think, in my mind, the team to beat. But it's a great division. You know, I think it's the best the division has been in many, many, many years from top to bottom. You're looking at the bottom team right now, and it's probably Washington by record, but, you know, Washington is a good football team.

And, you know, the Giants and the Eagles and the Cowboys, but I think still the Cowboys are the team to beat in that division. Is Dallas the best defensive team in the league? I think they're close to it, them and Philly, actually, are playing good defensive football. You know, they can rush the pastor. Philly has probably the edge on defense just because of their corner play with Darius Clay. But they're both good defenses. The way Dallas rushes the pastor, though, at Lawrence and obviously.

Parsons. I'm drawn a blank. Parsons. Yeah, Parsons. They're pretty tough to deal with. You know, it's kind of interesting this year. You know, I don't know if you're following this, but scoring's down. an average of like four plus points per game, maybe even a little bit more than that.

You know, some people are attributing it to the fact that the preseason is even less impactful in terms of preparation than it used to be. I don't know how much it's really changed. What do you attribute the lower scoring to? Well, I think offensive line plays a little bit down. I think tight-end plays down a little bit. There's not a lot of great tight-ins that can really attack defenses other than a couple of the known ones, Mark Andrews and Travis Kelsey. And it's just hard for offenses with a lot of injuries right now to offensive linemen. There's some forebacks that have been going down. So yeah, I think injuries and offensive line issues have a lot to do with it. Seattle leads the NFC West at 4 and 3.

Pete Carroll and John Schneider traded Russell Wilson for a boatload, and Gino Smith's been their quarterback and it's worked out so far. What do you think of that team and what do you think of Pete Carroll as a head coach? Well, I think this is by far his best job as a head coach. When they had Russell Wilson, obviously he's very talented, did some great things. They want a lot of games. But, you know, there was a lot of questions going into the season. They have some young offensive lineman. They have a rookie left tackle plan. Gino Smith has had many of opportunities that he struggled in earlier opportunities, but they saw something in them. And they went with them and they're calling to have a great game plan for them. They've got weapons on the

outside. The running game is very, very, very good. The play action game and Gino's ability to throw the ball deep is outstanding. So you've got to give Pete a lot of credit for this year. I think it's a great coaching job by us to the ball team. Gino Smith is, I had this conversation. I forget, it may have been with Cooley the other day, that there are certain quarterbacks that just stick around. You know, it's because they're great in the room. A guy like Chase Daniel has made $43 million. and has basically been on the field three or four times as a quarterback his entire career. But clearly there's something about him that teams like.

Jacoby Brissette, Gino Smith, are getting opportunities this year. What is it that keeps a guy hanging around long enough? And then is it a surprise to you that a guy like Gino Smith, after all these years, he's 32 years old, is having, you know, a career year? And potentially is quarterbacking a playoff? team when nobody expected it. Just the conversation about how some of these quarterbacks keep getting chances and others don't.

Why? Well, he's got a skill set, number one. He's played some football. He's got some experience. And obviously, they've seen something in him in practice to give him an opportunity. And he's taken full advantage of it. There have been quarterbacks in the past, like Rich Cannon and some other quarterbacks that have played very well later in their careers and not so well earlier in their

careers when they've got the opportunity and the experience. You know, quarterback is very difficult position to play. And the more experience you get, the more years under your belt you get, the more comfortable you are under center, making the audibles, making the throws, the protection adjustments, whatever you need to do for a rookie sometimes. It's a lot throwing at you. Different coverages, the speed of the game is very, very hard. But as a 32-year-old guy, you've been there, you've done that, you've been in different

systems, you know what plays you like, what concepts, attack, what defenses, where to go with the football. it just clicks a lot quicker in the amount of time that you have to run a play. It's really interesting to watch that sort of come together. I mean, do you think it speaks to maybe a new idea of being much more patient with some of these guys? I mean, there's another example, and it's escaping my memory right now. There's another guy that's really started to play. Well, I mentioned Jacoby Brissette, but I'm forgetting somebody else has really started

to come into his own. I mean, like 32 years old, if that's when they start to come into their own, is that okay? Yeah, for sure. You know, and it doesn't click a lot of times. A lot of times you got to be in the right situation with the right off-mouth also, and you have the right people around you. In Seattle, like I said, has a great running game to compliment them. They have a big physical guy, a D.K. Matt Kiff, a speed guy like Tyler Lockett, and he's been with these guys for a couple years now, so it clicks for him. And Shane Walder and the offensive coordinator is doing a great job. here at Washington. He's an excellent coach, no saddle attack defenses, and putting Gino in a great situation to succeed. I was thinking of Tannahill. Like Tannahill had all of those years in Miami and was

thought to be sort of this first round bust. And then he gets into this system with, you know, Arthur Smith as his coordinator. And he's had a solid, you know, three or four year run in Tennessee starting at like 30 years old. Yeah, yeah. You know, you can make an argument that Mark Marcus Marriota is doing the same thing. Right. He's playing pretty well at Atlanta. So, you know, these guys experience in repetition is key for quarterbacks. You know, a lot of people give up too quickly on quarterbacks.

There are going to be some young quarterbacks that are playing right now that are struggling that I think will be okay, you know, in their 30s that will play a lot better just because of the experience. And when you call the same play over and over and over again for five, six, seven years, it helps. You know what that play is good for. And you get a certain coverage, where to go to at the ball, like that, clockwork. Whereas the rookie, you're like, oh, my gosh, I just, we're expecting cover two. We got cover three. What do I go to the ball? FAC. You know, it's just a lot harder for these guys to translate all the information they have to go through pre-snap and then post-nap execute it.

Or veteran guys who've been there and done that, it makes it a lot easier for them because of the experience they have. But to stick around and get those opportunities and eventually have a chance to do what Gino Smith is doing, you've got to be a pretty good guy, don't you? I mean, you've got to be worth hanging around. You can't be an asshole. Oh, you're exactly right. You have to be a good teammate. You have to be patient.

You have to be supportive of the starter. Just because you're not the starter, you may want to be the starter. You have to be supporter of the starter. Colt McCoy is a great example. He was a great backup. I know he wanted to play in the worst way, but he came to practice.

He did his job. He took note. He was supportive of Kirk Cousins, and it was a great backup, and he's still in a league at Arizona. So these guys, Case Keene is another great example. Colt McCoy, you meant.

You said, Cousins. Yeah. Well, he was a great backup for. Oh, backup. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, my fault. Yeah. And then Case Keanam's another guy.

He's still in a league. He's a great backup. And when they, you know, if he's pressed to play, he's serviceful. It can win games. All right. Aaron Rogers and Tom Brady. What's going on there with both of them? Well, clearly, Aaron Rogers is having trouble with the guys around them.

He doesn't have the speed. You can see that they. don't have speed to take the top-up. Guys are having trouble getting separation. He's mentioned a lot of times guys are having mental mistakes, way too many mental mistakes, and you just can't have that at wider. You've got to have somebody that can get some separation, for goodness sakes. He's having trouble finding anybody with that skill to do that.

Ramble Cubs, a little older, Lizard's not a big fast guy. They're tight-end tanya, and he's not a guy that's going to get a whole lot of separation. So they've got to find something out real quick. The least they can do is do the things right and be in the right spot at the right depth. And if they're not doing that and they're not getting separation, the quarterback's going to struggle. Tampa Bay, I can't explain it. They have a big physical back and four net. They got a good rookie back to Rashad White.

They got Mike Evans. I don't know what's going on in Tampa Bay. There's a disconnect there between the system, I think, and Tom or something. Or the offensive line may not playing up to par. But that is a question that I don't know. I don't have the answer to why they're struggling. Yeah, not to mention they should have a dominant defense, and it's been very inconsistent. Yeah, yeah, they've struggled in the red zone.

They've struggled getting after the quarterback. They've struggled in all areas at Tampa Bay. You can't just blame the offense because their defense isn't playing it very well either. So they have all the tools. They can turn it around. If anybody can do it, Tom Brady can do it. And left, which has got to dig down deep and help them out a little bit more. But I would be surprised if they're not going to win the NFC South.

There was a moment there in the offseason where we thought there was a chance Rogers and Brady would both be out of the NFC, and there would be a major changing of the guard. They were both back, but there may be a changing of the guard anyway. Who do you see coming out of the NFC right now and making the Super Bowl? I think it's, well, I'm a consultant for the Rams, so I guess I say the Rams, obviously. But if I take them out of the equation, you know, I think Philadelphia and Dallas right now are playing excellent football. And NFC South is struggling a little bit.

I think the lines, I mean, the Vikings, they're five and one, but there's still some question marks there. but when you're talking about good all-around team football, I think the Cowboys and Eagles right now are playing the best football because their offensive defense are complementing each other, and they both can run the ball as well. Are Buffalo and Kansas City clearly the two best teams in the league? I think so. Yeah, I think so.

I think usually you go to the quarterbacks, and the best two quarterbacks are on the best two teams, and that's the case right there. Those guys are playing at a level, but we haven't seen guys play at. I mean, the ability to move, run, get out of the pocket, off-scheduled plays, throw the ball down the field. These guys have it all. These two quarterbacks are fun to watch,

and they're going to be a nightmare for teams for many, many years to come. Last one, if there's a team right now that you're thinking of that is hovering in that 3-4, 4-and-3 range, I don't know, maybe 2-4 or 2-and-5 that you think is much better and will make a run. Is there a team that comes to mind?

I'd probably still err on the side of Green Bay because I think their defense is better than their plan. If they get the receivers going a little bit, Aaron Rogers, I think they'll make a run eventually. Obviously, Tampa Bay is same boat, Tom Brady, and the skill that they have on offense and the skills that they have on defense. Yeah, in San Francisco and the Rams, both those two teams are, they're going to make a run as well. Matthew Stafford's going to, the Cooper Cup, they're going to make a run. They get Van Jefferson back. They're going to be tough to deal with two with Aaron Donald and Jaylon Ramsey back there. All right. I hope you're well. It's good to catch up. Let's talk

soon. You got. Thanks, Kevin. Jay Gruden, everybody, always fun to catch up with him. Ben Standing up next with the latest on Chase Young and a lot more on the Washington commanders. Right after these words from a few of our sponsors. This segment with Ben Standing brought to you by My Bookie. This weekend, Jake Paul and Anderson Silva highlight the main event of what could be the boxing pay-per-view event of the year. Whether you're a diehard or a casual fan, every punch that lands could be another win at My Bookie. predict individual matchups, bet on fights to go to distance, or bet on one of your personal favorites,

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JP reported Team Source says no setback, but don't expect the clock to start today, meaning the practice 21-day clock before he has to be activated. Team wants to be cautious and have one more doctor visit. If all goes well, Young likely practices next week, they're not rushing him back. So there was an expectation that he would practice today. Is there a reason since they've put it back at least a week to be concerned? I don't know if there's a reason to be concerned any more than I would have been concerned three, four, five, six weeks ago when, you know, let's go back to where we all were.

earlier in the summer, when, you know, could Chase Young be ready to play with at the start of the season? And then it became apparent, all right, he's probably going to miss because he's the top of the season.

Then Rivera made the comment early in training camp that he's probably going to go on the Pupplest, and he even thought at that moment it was still six weeks instead of four. That gave us the hint that it could be six weeks. And now we're,

you know, at week eight. And if this is the way it's going to play out, he may not be practicing until week nine, which means he may not even be playing. until week 10. So I guess I wouldn't say that this moment is concerning for me, but the question has been for several weeks now,

like kind of what happened here? It is a significant injury, you know, and I think we've all probably fallen under the illusion that everybody returns from an ACL in nine months, and his situation was a bit more complicated with Patelotendin damage. But that said, it's interesting to see that it is taking this long and how much of it is for them being incredibly cautious and how much of it is somewhere along the way

there was a setback, or he's just taking a longer time to recover than anybody imagine. That, I think, is still up in the air. But, yeah, I'm not more concerned today, but it's been concerning over the course of several weeks, I would say. Do you know, I mean, you're out there all the time. Has he been in town during the season, or has he continued to do a lot of the rehab out in Colorado?

that we've seen him I mean, you know, pretty much I can't recall a time not seeing him ever since he first showed up for, when was that, training camp or OTAs? I forget when it was the exact. My brain doesn't work anymore.

I think it was OTAs. He did show up for school OTAs, yeah. Right, right. He missed the first week, I think, for being out. Right. Yeah, he's been around all the time, and we see him out there every day, you know, when we're out there, you know,

running the hills or working with the training staff. So, you know, he's doing the work and we're seeing it. You know, and look, from the naked eye, he looks pretty good. But obviously there's a difference between, you know, just running a sprint straight down the field versus, you know, cutting, taking hits, taking the pounding, and that's that the thing. I think that my expectations, you know, once we really started to get a sense that he wasn't going to be ready for training camp or,

you know, the early portion of the season, especially when Ron, you know, thought that the, you know, IR thing was six games and kind of, spoke to six games. I think at that point, my expectations were dialed back significantly for him, you know, at any point this year to be Chase Young, or at least the Chase Young that we hope will become Chase Young when they drafted him number two overall, and, you know, the rookie of the year in 2020. I mean, I think right now for fans, that's a good position to have, don't you, that, you know, the expectations for Chase Young really should be more about 2023 than 2022. 100% and what's interesting, like the difference with Chase Young versus maybe some other players would be one.

So much of what his game is at this point is, his athletic explosion versus like skill. Not thinking he's unskilled, but like we saw his last time we saw him on the field. He was a work in progress still that he needed to have more refined pass rushing technique and so on. And so for him to come back, like it's not like he's coming in with like this array of, you know, he knows how to, he's, got all this savviness and he knows how to get a round lineman without pure athleticism. He's not that guy right now, so he needs to be as close to 100% as possible. And that's why, right, it's not like the guy comes back whoever it is from an ACL, goes on the field, and immediately is back where he was.

It's one thing to play again. It's another thing to then be sort of at that level. So he's not, yeah, if I'm with you, I was downing back my expectation significantly. And then on top of it, I think what's maybe the most interesting is what has he developed from a technique standpoint. How are you practice, you know, you can do some things while you're on the sideline, but he's been, you know, having to just rehab the knee, how much time you're really spending

working on, you know, your swim moves or your, you know, whatever it is, you know, going over the top or whatever, to get better. And that's where he needed to be beyond, you know, beyond getting, recovering from the injury. So, yeah, I've dialed back my expectations. A lot did that several weeks ago, or even if it may be it a couple month ago at this point. And yeah, whatever he can give them is a bonus, but I'm not expect, I haven't been expecting the wow, all-world Chase Young impression that we have this year.

All right, let's talk about their defense in general. I asked this question on the radio show this morning of callers and Denton and I answered it ourselves. I want to know what your answer is, and that is, do you think this defense is a good defense, or do you think it has just played well recently because of the opponents that they've faced? Yeah, I think it's a great question, and I was looking this up with the QBR rating, just to use that as a basic guide. Other than Jalen Hertz, I'm not counting Cooper Rush.

Other than Jalen Hertz, they haven't, I don't think they faced any other quarterback that's inside the top 15. Even Aaron Rogers is currently like 26, but he's just obviously not at peak form of that offensive. So I think there is something to be. said for that. However, you know, and I'm not trying to sound like one of, like a coach here, but like, you know, that Eagles game, the Eagles, you know, crushed them in that second quarter,

but other than that, they did a pretty good job of containing them. And, you know, you know, third down numbers are up significantly that it's not like. They're second in the league. They're second in the league on third down defense right now. Second. Right. It's crazy. And I don't have the, the numbers in front of me, but in the article I just put up yesterday on the athletic, like I showed how the first two weeks of the year, they were, you know, bottom of the league in numerous categories, and now in those same categories, they're, you know, top five, top ten. I do think the defensive line, I think the big difference to me was in this year or last year right now

is the defensive line is both applying pressure to the quarterback, but also being consistent. We're not hearing Ron Rivera talk about discipline and maturity issues on that side of the ball the way we did throughout last year. and from that, I think everything behind them flows better. I believe it was they had 11 explosive plays in the first two weeks, and it's not much more than that in the next five. And I think, you know, the William Jackson benching or injury or whatever we want to say there, I think it's helped, frankly, right?

I think their secondary has been, you know, less leaky. So I don't know if they're good or like dominant, but I think they're significantly better than they were last year. And my point from the beginning of the year was, if they could just be top, you know, middle of the pack, and you hope for, you know, an upgrade on offense because of the Carson went a factor in more playmaking, then maybe that's enough to get you up another level.

Obviously, we know where we're at with the offense, but, yeah, I think it would be good. I wouldn't say, though, they're like, wow, this is an amazing defense, and I think part of that is the opponent's day of faith, but we'll get a better feel, maybe not this week, Sam Ellinger, but in a couple weeks to come with Minnesota, Philadelphia, and so on. Yeah, I mean, I think that there are a really good rush defense right now, which is a surprise to me because I didn't think that I thought there was a chance

that that would be a weakness this year because of the teams they were facing. Like last year it was all quarterbacks that could throw it with dynamic receivers. This year it was a lot of rush first teams with some really good backs. I looked at some numbers like what Dallas rushed for before and after the Washington game, and, you know, they were prolific on the ground before they played Washington and after they played Washington, but they were at two point something yards per carry when they played Washington. Philadelphia, this same thing. They, you know, they did a good job on Derek Henry.

They held him to like three and a half yards per carry. I think it's a really good rush defense. And, you know, it makes it easier to play the run when you're not worried about getting beat over the top. although it's strange to say that about Green Bay, obviously, but that's been the case with some of the quarterbacks they faced. Okay, enough about the defense. Let's get to Taylor Heineke, the topic when it comes to this football team right now. And there's a lot of differing opinions on what we saw on Sunday

and what we might see moving forward. What do you think? Well, let's see if I can make this announcement. technology work, and you as a college basketball fan, hopefully will appreciate this. We're lamenting on the Wizards right now. Johnny Davis is not looking at. He's not basically playing, and he's looked pretty bad so far. And independent of whatever he is, he comes from Wisconsin, right?

And Wisconsin's basketball players typically do not impress when they get to the pros. And I think part of the reason why is Wisconsin is they get guys who are really try-hard, work-hard guys, and that effort alone can win you a lot of games, but then when you get up against tougher opponents, more athletic opponents who play with your same level of energy and focus, they tend to lose. And I feel like this is where we're at kind of with Taylor Heineke, in that he is, I mean, he's an athletic guy,

but he's limited in what he can do, but he's a try-hard guy at all time, and that will keep you in games when the other opponent maybe looks past you or has a down day. It can be enough to get you by, but that's just getting by. And the whole point of all this is to do more than get by.

It's to win big at some point. And this team has been stuck in that middle forever. So I think Taylor Heineke, I've been saying this all long. If the goal is to win the very next game, I've been saying this in training camp, I would probably go with Taylor Heineke over Carson Wentz. But if the goal is to win big, then Taylor Heineke can't be the answer. And, you know, that first half was miserable.

Obviously, he was lucky to not have thrown four interceptions. let alone the one that was a pick six. And, you know, look, I think he's obviously a great watch. He's a fun guy. I totally get why people would root for him. And that is fantastic. And he gives him a good chance to win this week, right? Obviously.

But, you know, for me, I've just looked at the long view much more than I'm looking at the present, like for years now, because what are we talking about here? We're getting all shows all worked up for a team that's winning seven games every year. Like, it's got to be more than that. So I just think that He may be, a totally reasonable option for this moment. But in terms of like meaning something long term, no, I am not on that bandwagon.

Trade deadline. You asked Ron about that about a week and a half ago, somewhere around there, and they've won two games since. So I'm not expecting anything other than maybe a William Jackson for a late, late, late, late, late, like 12th round conditional at this point. I don't know who would offer anything for them.

But I guess since they've won two in a row, that would be the only thing they would do, right? Yeah, so it was the, I asked him before this last game, so it's just the one game that they've won since. But yeah, I mean, you know, look, at three and four, even though there's a lot of teams of three and four, they are technically only a half a game out of the final wild card spot. So, yeah, I don't see them making any bold move like a Duran Payne kind of a deal. And William Jackson, like you said, one will have to see where he is with his back. you know, because I think that is a real thing, but then also, you know,

he's got a good contract for next year with it with a dead cap, money, that's significant. So, yeah, I don't know that another team is willing to take that on, but, you know, if they can, you know, if Washington is willing to say, look, just take the money we don't care about, you know, like you said, be 12th per pick or whatever, you know, that could happen. And, like, I don't see Jackson coming back to the lineup anytime soon. They've played pretty decently the last, you know,

a couple of weeks without them, far less breakdown than we saw. throughout last season earlier this season. So, yeah, I don't see anything really happening. I mean, it would be unwise for them, I think, in a lot of ways to make a move where you're giving up assets to get a player. But in terms of trading guys away, it seems more unlikely now that they won last week. I mean, it could be one of those where it's the player and a seventh rounder, and you get a sixth rounder back, you know, something like that.

Right, right. Last question. What do you think they are expecting Sunday against an Indianapolis? team that will start Sam Ealinger, a quarterback. Yeah, I mean, like, you know, you figure like Taylor Heineke is like the wild card and, like, all the games he plays because he just never know what you're going to get. Well, now we're talking about the Colts starting a quarterback that is like a Taylor Heineke clone who's never taken an NFL snap.

So this is truly a wild card scenario. You know, look, I mean, look, the Colts still have some players you've got to worry about. Jonathan Taylor's on that team. Michael Pittman's a pretty solid receiver. You know, it's hard to know what to make of a guy like Eliger. And, you know, perhaps it gives him a boost. Like, it's really hard to comprehend how bad Matt Ryan has been just when you look at the numbers. He leaves the league in interceptions, fumbled, and he's now overtaken Carson Wentz to be the most sacked quarterback in the league.

So it's, I guess we'll say that anything would be better than that, but Matt Ryan still was leading them into some late game positive drives to win games. They are 3-3-1, so it's not like they were out of it, but they still decided to make this move. And I guess I would just say, you know, the defense has got to be ready for a quarterback who's going to probably tuck the ball and be on the move a lot more than just like guys who are trying to throw it way down the field. Yeah, it's interesting. line, Indianapolis, still three-point favorite with the quarterback that's never taken a snap in the league. You know, their pass-block win rate is 30th, and Washington actually dropped a spot after

Sunday to 31st in that next-gen, you know, pass-block statistic. So, you know, having that statuesque quarterback with an offensive line that can't protect, it was they're going to a mobile quarterback, out of necessity. I mean, I'm not saying Ryan was playing well because he wasn't. The 11 fumbles are alarming along. I mean, he's turned the ball over 20 times this season, which is just amazing. Actually, I don't know how many of those fumbles were lost. I don't know if that's a lost fumble stat or if that's a total fumble stat.

But they, you know, they couldn't protect him. And I think Washington had some of the same issues too. Look, I think I think Taylor Heineke got pressured a lot. I think there were some immediate wins up front for Green Bay. on Sunday. The difference is, and this is what Indianapolis has recognized, is that you got a guy that might be able to duck his way out of a few of them and make a play. And Carson couldn't, and Matt Ryan definitely couldn't. It's going to be interesting. This is actually, in so many weird ways, this is like one of the more interesting games they've had all year long. Because it seems like they've got a really good chance to get to 500, and yet you really don't know what the Colts have in Ealinger. They clearly liked him.

They had moved him up to number two a few weeks ago, and apparently they thought he had a phenomenal training camp, and they were really excited about him then. But we'll see. Yeah, for sure. By the way, like, to me, you said this is like a really interesting game, and I agree. What's so interesting to me about this is the Colts,

it's so funny how the Colts in Washington seems to be incredibly, like going through the exact same details, you know, that they're connected through the Wendth trade, that we now have this ownership fight subplot. But now we have two teams that have been sort of on this merry-go round of year after year, who's the quarterback? What are they going to do with a quarterback? The Colts have done it year-over-year, changing guys.

And here it's been happening, too, some because of injuries, but also, you know, from Dwayne Haskins to Ryan Fitzpatrick to Carson-Went, each, you know, there's been a different starting quarterback. But what's interesting to me is, again, the Coulter 3-3-1 in a terrible division. it would be easy to just say, regardless of the Matt Ryan's problems, that we're going to stay the course that we think we'll get better over time.

We'll go with the proven quarterback and Matt Ryan rather than an unknown working. Instead, the Colts decided, you know what? Screw that. We've got to get off this merry-go-round. So here's what we're going to do. We're going to look at our guy. We have no idea realistically if he's going to be an answer. But if he's not, and he stinks, we bottom out probably, and we go into the draft with possibly a top-10 pick,

and we go get a quarterback and go that way. because ultimately they've been stuck in the middle, just like Washington had. And you can't, it's pretty hard to get a quarterback in the middle. So the fact that, and this is like we're talking about with Washington, what are they going to do with Carson Went whenever he comes back? Are they going to sit-in? There's that 70% snaps thing that we talked about, and I asked Ron Rivera about this the other day.

And, you know, is Washington ever, are they going to look at the situation and think, even if we have Heineke's doing well and we can get back in, what are we? Are we actually making a run in the playoffs? And if we, you know, the season end, then what? We still don't have a quarterback. So I think that really is so interesting the cult. But I think, I know what you're saying. And as it relates to Washington, they're never, let's just say if they are, you know, mathematically alive in week 15, they're not going to say to what end and let's play Sam Howell to see what we have. They're going to go for it. And I actually think that the cults are going for.

Let me, let me, it's similar, not directly analogous, but it's similar to what Jim Harbaugh did in 2012. When Alex Smith got hurt, if you recall, they had to play Colin Kaepernick, who would never played. Colin Kaepernick gave them a dimension that Alex Smith didn't really give them. And when Alex Smith came back and was healthy, they stuck with Kaepernick. And they stuck with Kaepernick because they thought they were a better team with Kaepernick. And, you know, they went to the postseason that year. and went to the Super Bowl with Kaepernick in 2012 and nearly won it. It was the right decision.

I actually think, as you were sitting there talking, that what this move is, it's a move because at 3-3-1, they don't think they can get to 8, 7, and 1 or 9, 6-1 with a statuesque quarterback. They think Ailinger gives them their best chance to end up winning this bad division. And, you know, in a similar way in which Kaepernick gave him this dimension that, you know, Russell Wilson was giving Seattle in 2012 and RG3 was giving Washington in 2012. And then Kaepernick came in and killed it for them. And so I think they elevated them to number two recently because there were people in that organization that thought, you know what, we can't protect.

We can't just have Matt Ryan be a dropback quarterback. We need with Jonathan Taylor. We need a dual threat quarterback, and that gives us our best chance, and they did it. Because look, he could have easily said Matt, you know, has a grade two separated shoulder. We're going to sit him for a few weeks. We're going to play Sam, see how that goes, and get Matt healthy. He didn't have to say what he said, which is he's hurt, but he's also, you know, Sam's going to be the quarterback for the rest of the year. Now, there is the contract thing, too, that they're trying to avoid.

for those that don't know what I'm talking about, there is a guaranteed for injury component of Ryan's contract, which means if he were to get seriously injured playing, they'd be on the hook for a lot more money over the next few years. So I think they were concerned about that too. But anyway, go ahead. Well, I would say, I guess just to push back a little bit. You know, one, Kaepernick was drafted in the second round.

Arguably he was viewed as the heir apparent to Alex Smith, and they didn't, you know, it wasn't just a guy. you know, Ellinger is more like a Sam Howe with a day three shot in the dark will see. Two, I think them saying that Ryan isn't coming back is more to the point of what I'm talking about, because there's no possible way anybody over there thinks he's the answer. It's impossible. Now, he may become the answer, just like we see random, you know, Kirk Cousins, a fourth-round pick, or Tom Brady is the ultimate example.

But, like, or even, you know, Taylor Heineke's been decent, right, as an undrafted free agent. guy who's bounced around. But there's no way they think that Sam Ellenger is the answer. Otherwise, they're going to draft them higher, you know, all those kinds of things. I think they just think that Matt Ryan isn't working, and more to the point, they can keep going down the Matt Ryan route and trudge along and see what happens. Or kind of like what we've all been, people have been saying here about Sam, how, at some point, shouldn't you see what you have with this guy, because then you're going to go into the offseason, A, you'll least know what you have, it will be recognized we need to do something

different. And I think they just decided they're going to do it now. Like imagine if Matt Ryan was here, right? That's what we're talking about. Do you think that Ron Rivera would bench him? Hell no. They were doing Matt Ryan all the way through because they made the investment in Matt Ryan, because, you know, all that. And by the way, Matt Ryan still has a contract next year.

They're going to take a big cap hit if they move on from him, whereas at least with the Wendt, you know, we know Washington can get out for free. So I think they're just saying, look, whatever's going to happen the rest of this year, we're going to see what Eliger is. We do kind of like them. And more than that, we're not going to be. going to pretend that Matt Ryan's going to work. We accept the fact some cost, that's not working. Now we have to do something else. And maybe if we bottom out and we get a better pick,

that's how I don't. I'll, we just, we disagree on that. And I, by the way, you might be right. I think it's, they actually legitimately believe that this is their best chance to win and to compete moving forward. I think because if it was about the future, and you said they just did it earlier. You usually don't do it that much earlier when you're three, three and one and a half game out of first place in a division. I think that that would have been, you know, five weeks from now. Let's see what we have in Sam if we actually think there's something there to look at before we figure out what we're going to do in the off season. Let me ask you this. Do you think that based on, let's say Carson Wentz is not healthy? I mean, it's healthy.

Sorry. I mean, I would imagine you and I both agree he has not shown enough for us to think that he's the answer long term, or for next season. Is that fair? Right. So based on that, if Atlanta, if the Colts see the same thing,

they're doing what a lot of people here just think Washington should be doing themselves, and that is admitting that it didn't work and moving on. But Washington is going to be tied into the idea that while we invest, made this investment, and it's a big deal. By the way,

here's the other component to this. They have an actual GM and Indie, and they have an owner who, for better for worse, is involved, that combination is pushing this, whereas here, I don't really think Dan Snyder is that involved the way people may be reporting as such. But more importantly, Ron Rivera is the GM too.

And when I spoke to him about the Carson went 70% snap thing, and you can see this on the athletic, he said he doesn't think that should matter, even if we put it in the contract. That, to me, speaks of a coach who is trying to win the next game. And that's where I think is the difference. You're right. I think the cold to recognize Brian's not going to work, so let's go with this kid, and he fits more of this mobile quarterback era.

I totally agree. But realistically, you know, I mean, Matt Ryan, they beat the Chiefs this year. Matt Ryan's had some good. They had won three of four going into Sunday's game at Tennessee. Right. Yeah. No, I understand that. I just, I think the, what makes me believe that they're doing this because they believe right now it gives him the best chance to win is they elevated him a couple of weeks ago.

They're in a division that's still completely winnable at 3-3-1. They have a bunch of games coming up. I know they play Washington. I think they have, you know, they play a game at New England. I mean, you know, the Patriots, I don't know what the Patriots are. I think they have the Steelers. I was looking at it earlier. They probably, I just think they feel right now,

Ealinger gives them their best chance. I mean, I would have never understood that or gotten it or knew anything about it last week. But I think this is what they've been thinking. and then Sunday clenched it. You know, with Ryan, you know, turning the ball over as many times as he turned it over against Tennessee. He had two picks. And I think he had, you know, I think he had two picks in the game, something like that. There was a pick six, and I think that was it.

And by the way, it was sacked a number of times. And Tennessee had, you know, double-digit pressures against that offensive line. And they're just like, we can't win with Matt Ryan. He's not mobile enough with this offensive line. And we've got some good players on the team. Let's put the mobile guy in. he gives us our best chance. I don't know. I could be wrong. That's what I think. I don't think it's just about we've given up on the season and we're going to see whether or not Ailing

or it gives us a chance next year or beyond. I mean that you can do both. I don't think they've given up on the season. I'm just saying the easy call is to stay with Matt Ryan. The more complicated calls to go with a guy who's never taking a snap and is a six-round pick last year and saying, well, let's see. And I think they're saying, we'll see. And if it doesn't work, that's fine. We'll be a bottom 10 team. Whereas, like I said here, Because even if you stay with Heineke overwent, you're still probably going to churn out enough wins to avoid being in the top, you know, getting a top 10 pick, and then you're sort of still stuck where they're at. Like, right now, three and four, I think they have like the 15th pick. It's the season ended today.

Right. Like, we're all acting like they're not great, but they're kind of middle of the pack in this league. And, you know, we talk about this with the Wizards all the time, too. at some point, if you really, this is how these leagues work. If you want the quarterback or you want the potential franchise player in the NBA, you've got a bottom out. That's it. The rest of it is if you're going for the veteran quarterback,

what have we seen this year? You go for the veteran quarterback in a trade, you're taking, you know, you're going to the flea market more or less, and you're taking damage goods and praying you can make it work on some level. And, you know, when are you going to get off that cycle? I just think the Colts are saying, we're getting off this cycle one way or the other. Either this kid works out or we're going to bottom out and go to the draft.

You know, the funny thing is they've gone with sort of that veteran quarterback path here, three straight years with Rivers Wentz and Ryan. And it hasn't worked with the last two, but it did work with Rivers. You know, they went 11 and 5, and they were very close. They had Buffalo on the ropes in that playoff game that they lost 27 to 24. And Rivers had a great finish to that year and a good season overall. It doesn't, you know, it's like, Right now, the trend appears as if, you know, and I'd have to go back and look at this.

Rivers is the one that popped into my mind because I'm a huge Philip Rivers fan. But I think that this year is certainly, you know, it's remarkable that every big veteran trade and or free agent acquisition seems to be not working out. I mean, Marcus Marriota may be the best ad of a veteran quarterback from last year. But I don't know if that's a trend. I'm not sure. I do think, let me just tell you this, and I haven't said this on the podcast this week, I do think after watching Sunday night football,

and I know he had three interceptions, but after watching Kenny Pickett for a full game, I do wish Washington had drafted Kenny Pickett in the first round. Because I think there's something to Kenny Pickett, and that there's something there that looks like it's worth spending some time and being patient with. Well, that was the old, I mean, look, Pittsburgh did what I think a lot of us seemed to think Washington might end up doing, which is literally signing Mitch Trubisky to be, or maybe you didn't have to because you had Heineke, but signing Mitch Trubisky to be the stopgap and then drafting the quarterback in the first round with Pickett being the one guy. But they obviously by that point had already made the investment when gave up picks. And, you know, I understand maybe to a degree why you don't going for Kenny Pickett at that moment.

But yeah, no, that would have been the other way to go for sure. They chose one path to Stiegers one of the other way. I mean, if you could go back and do that right now, and we don't know anything about Pickett, I understand. He's thrown like six picks in two out of his three games, or three each. I think right now if you told me I have a chance to go back and redo the trade with New Orleans back to 16, I think I would take Kenny Pickett. And I don't know anything about Malik Willis other than I thought he had.

had some ceiling to him. But I thought Pickett had some ceiling too. But I think I would do that and then roll with Taylor and not even worry about Trubisky. And then you just go from there and when picket's ready, you put him in there. But I would have also been during the summer saying, if picket's not ready to take over for Taylor Heineke really soon, then it might say all you need to know about Pickett. But that's an impatient quarterback take, something that Jay Gruden in our last segment on this show, said, you know, the patience with the quarterback is so important. Look at Gino Smith as an example. All right.

What else you got for me? Yeah, no. I just think it's a fascinating deal. And by the way, like one reason I think they couldn't go to Kenny Pickett route. Well, maybe he could have gone picket, but, you know, Rivera from the moment the season ended last year, said basically we're going to get a better quarterback. And a better quarterback isn't going to be definitively starting Taylor Heineke week one. and yeah, a first-round-pick quarterback gives you,

you can sort of tout that, but, you know, I don't know, Kenney Pickett was, he's an interesting prospect, but he's not, you know, a screaming obvious guy, and if he was, he wouldn't have fallen all the way to wherever Pittsburgh picked 20 or whatever that was. Yeah, so, yeah, it's fascinating, we'll see. But look, you know, in terms of the short term, you know, I think the combination of Brian Robinson and Antonio Gibson gives them a really solid and potentially spectacular baseline to go with it every day.

And we've talked about this for months, that what they were trying to do when they drafted Brian Robinson was recreate that four-game winning streak last year. And where they ran the ball a lot, controlled the clock, kept their defense fresh, all that happened in this game, particularly in the second half when Taylor Heineke settled down. And, you know, in the short term, this may be their best bet. Taylor Heineke is efficient

that, you know, Carson Wentz is not. Carson Wentz offers more of a big play than Heineke, but Heineke puts the ball in the hands of his playmakers, and good, right? That was the whole point. Like, you have McCorn and all these other guys, get them the ball. So I think they did a better job of that,

and, you know, that's why if Heineken can keep this up, the other, you know, interesting thing will be, you know, what does Rivera do at that point? Does he go back to Wendt? or does he stay with Heineke? And, you know, by the way, I would imagine some players on the team would be like, hey, no, no, no, stay with number four. But, you know, you made the investment in Wenton and not just about this year,

it's next year as well. So that's where I think all this is going to be so interesting to see what happened to the next two to three weeks while Wentz is out is how they continue to grow or not, or does Heineke, that first half of Heineke become, you know, just more of that. And that, you know, everybody recognizes that can't work. But we'll see. We will see. It's more interesting heading into this game than it was a couple of weeks ago,

which is good for us. All right, thank you. I'll talk to you soon. Yeah, ma'am. Ben Standing, everybody, from The Athletic at Ben Standing on Twitter. Don't forget to listen to his podcast, Standing Room Only. Thanks to Ben, thanks to Jay Gruden, back tomorrow with Tommy.