The Kevin Sheehan Show - Jay Gruden On Howell, EB, and More

Episode Date: July 11, 2023

Kevin opened with more Daron Payne vs. Jon Allen talk. He put out a Twitter Poll today asking the question, "if you could only pick one....Payne or Allen". The results were one-sided! Kevin explained why he thinks it turned out that way. Then it was Jay Gruden as a guest talking Sam Howell, Eric Bieniemy, the Payne/Allen debate, Dan Snyder, and lots more.   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Cheyenne Show. Here's Kevin. The show today is primarily with Jay Gruden. Jay Gruden coming up in the next segment. We'll talk a lot about this year's team, Sam Howell, Eric B. Enemy, the defense.

I'm sure with Jay, the conversation will turn to his time here. And then I'll ask Jay about thoughts as we near the end of Dan Snyder's rain in Washington. Remember, Jay lasted longer than anybody with Dan Snyder. Five full seasons as the head coach and five games of a sixth season. Shanahan made it four years, if you want to call it four years. 2013 was a disaster. Gibbs was here for four years. Rivera's been here for three, but he won't be here for five or longer with Dan Snyder as the owner. So Jay Gruden coming up. We have a new sponsor on the show today. And I want to tell you about the Circa Million and the Circa survivor pools. Now, the Circa, if you don't know, is one of the most impressive resort casino and sports

books in Las Vegas. That's where Tim Murray works. He does that radio show with Sean King, the former Buccaneers quarterback. That's where the producer of this podcast. Aaron Oster works at the Circa. And the Circa has their Circa million every year. year and they've got the Circa Survivor Pool. And I want to tell you about both. The Circa Million is in the fifth year with over $6 million in guaranteed prizes. The way it works, it's a $1,000 entry for the season. You pick five games every week, and the winner at the end of the season with the best overall record wins a million bucks. but there are another $5 million plus in prizes.

There are quarterly season-long prizes that are offered. The person that ends up with the worst overall record will take home $100,000. That's hard to do too. Remember, it's hard to win. It's hard to pick winners. It's also hard to pick losers. They're basically the same in terms of the odds. But you pick five games every week.

it's a $1,000 season entry for the Circa million, a million dollars to the winner, but another $5 million plus in guaranteed prizes. Now, you do have to be at the Circa to sign up for this. So this is for people who have a trip plan to Vegas or maybe a reason for you to plan a trip to Vegas. You have to sign up in Vegas at any of the Circa properties. and then you can make your picks from everywhere. You actually do it through a proxy.

But for those of you that listen and we have listeners in Nevada, you can do it easily. But this is a contest that I am going to enter this year, the Circa Million. And then there's the Circa Survivor Pool with $8 million guaranteed to the winner or winners. Last year, the Circa Survivor Pool, was split between two people, two people split $6 million plus. Most of you, most of you know

how a survivor pool works. You pick one team straight up, no points spread every week to win. If that team loses, you're eliminated. And you can only pick one, each team one time a season. So the last person standing, and sometimes it's more than one person standing, will split a guaranteed pot of $8 million. That's also $1,000 per entry, and you've got up to a maximum of 10 entries per person. That is a big survivor pool. The Circa doing it right every football season. For more information, you can just go to circassports.com.

All right, I want to start the show with this. Tommy and I talked yesterday about the ESSports. PN defensive tackles list, where they've got coaches, general manager, scouts voting on the top 10 at each position. And the defensive tackle top 10 came out over the weekend. And I thought I would see John Allen in the top 10. I was hoping to see Duran Payne. The result was both of them were in the top 10, but Duran Payne finished ahead of John Allen. Duran Payne was the number eight defensive tackle in the NFL.

and John Allen was the number 10 defensive tackle in the NFL. And that surprised me. Not that I didn't think it was justified or reasonable, but I just think that the perception is that John Allen is the better player. But the people in the league, coaches, general manager, scouts, not just writers on a website or a blog, they picked Duran Payne as the better defensive tackle. And in fact, somebody picked Duran Payne as the second best defensive tackle in the league.

That was the highest ranking any of the 80 scouts, general managers, coaches gave Duran Payne. Somebody ranked him as the second best in the game. John Allen, the highest ranking he got was fourth. Still pretty good. But both of them in the top 10, Washington's the only team with two defensive tackles in the top 10. The Giants have Dexter Lawrence and then have Leonard W. Williams on the list of others receiving votes. But I think you can pretty much make the case that Washington's pair of defensive

tackles is the best pair of defensive tackles in the NFL. I mean, there are others, Tart and Simmons in Tennessee, and certainly, you know, Fletcher Cox and Jalen Carter have a chance in Philadelphia or Jordan Davis, you know, eventually. There are teams with really good detackle combinations, but you certainly are not wrong if you say Washington's one-two punch of Duran and John is the best in the league. But again, I think that the surprise was that Duran was higher. Not for me. It was a surprise to me.

Don't get me wrong. But I don't have a problem with it. But I think a lot of fans of the team are surprised by that. And I put out a poll this morning on the radio show. We took calls on it as well. And I'm going to give you the updated results of the poll. I tweeted out at Kevin Sheen, D.C., if you could only pick one, John Allen, Duran Payne. 79.1% so far, say John Allen, 20.9% say Duran Payne.

That's with 1100 votes in so far as the recording of this podcast. I mean, 80-20 basically, almost, 79-21, to be exact. Or rounding down on the 79.1 and rounding up on the 20.9. that's surprising to me. It's not surprising that fans think John Allen is the better player or a combination of a better player, more consistent player, and the better leader. Although Duran Payne is a good locker room guy. John Allen is one of the leaders of this team.

I would take Duran Payne. I just think Duran Payne's explosive upside, his ability at some point, point to just completely dominate the game from that position exists. And I don't think John Allen's upside does. I think John Allen's really good, and this is a hard choice. Don't get me wrong. But I think if Duran Payne realizes his best, you know, potential, he's a top 3D tackle in the game. And John Allen, at his best, which we've seen him at his best, you know, is certainly a top 10 defensive tackle in the game. And by the way, there's more of a chance that John Allen will stay consistent and be top 10 through the rest of his career and maybe less of a chance that

Duran Payne will reach that status that I just described of being like a top three guy in the league. But Payne's ceiling is higher, in my opinion, than Allen's. And I think they're both great teammates. And I know the feeling about Duran Payne's contract year and you know, him talking a little bit about, you know, the bag and, you know, doing what he could in a contract year. But I kind of trust the team on this one. You know, the first player that Jack Del Rio fell in love with when they got the job was Payne. He was the guy that wowed him. And they wowed, you know, he wowed them this year.

Remember, one year ago, the odds that Duran Payne and John Allen were going to both be on the team were not very good. They were less than 50-50. You know, John Allen was signed, but we just figured Duran Payne's playing out this fifth year, you know, option year. And like if he blows up into this great player that I thought he could be and had hoped he was on the verge of becoming, and he wasn't, you know, super consistent through those first four years. But I was hopeful that he would show that. And then they'd have to use the franchise tag. And they did, and then they obviously got him signed.

But a year ago, he wasn't a given. In fact, he was less than 50-50 that Payne. was going to be a side-by-side guy with John Allen on this team moving forward. I'm glad they signed him. I think this is the strength of the football team. I think this is the hope of the football team. But, man, I was surprised, definitely surprised, that, you know, 79.1% to 20.9%. Like, overwhelming.

And I think there's some of it's about the leadership. And I was reading through a lot of the Twitter responses. You know, Alan's a team leader. That transcends on field production. That was from district sports talk. You know, our friend Ian, leadership matters. Payne's made one pro bowl, and it was during his contract year. Alan's a 10 out of a 10.

Tim on Twitter said, Alan, because of his leadership and approach, not a jab at Payne, who seems to be a great dude, who goes about his business as well. On the field, it's a coin toss. happy we have both, nothing more disruptive than pressure up the middle. And with respect to that, this was part of what I don't think I read yesterday in the write-up on Duran Payne when they had them ranked eighth. Payne's 21 and a half disrupted dropbacks.

I didn't know that that was a stat, but if it's a made-up ESPN stat, disrupted dropback is a combination stat, is a combination of sacks, interceptions, batted, tipped, and defended passes. Duran Payne had 21 and a half of those. Now, we know he had 11 and a half sacks. So that means he had another 10 combined, batted, tipped, defended passes. Because I don't think he had an interception last year.

Did Duran Payne have an interception last year? The team didn't have many interceptions last year. Interceptions last year. Yeah, John Allen had one. remember in the Chicago game. Duran Payne did not have an interception last year. But anyway, the point being that 21 and a half was second among all defensive tackles in the game. Chris Jones was the leader with 23 of those combined plays. But he had the tipped ball in the Atlanta game that saved the Atlanta game at the end when Mariotta and the Falcons were going in

for the game-winning score down 19 to 13 at the end of the game. It was Payne who disrupted what would have been an easy touchdown pass. But this is why I like Duran, because Duran really impacts a game with those kinds of plays. And I'm going to ask Jay Gruden about that. Gruden, remember, was the coach when both of these players were drafted. You know, when they needed defense, by the way, because they were so good offensively in 2016. and 2015, and so horrific defensively.

And they started to emphasize, you know, we're going to take defensive players. And they went out, you know, this was when they were in love with taking Alabama players, but they got two good ones in Allen and Payne in back-to-back years in 2017 and 2018. So I'll ask Jay Gruden the question that I asked callers and asked on Twitter, Payne or Allen. My guess is he'll probably say Allen, because they loved John Allen. Look, I know they loved Duran Payne before that draft. I know they did.

But we will ask Jay that coming up. Speaking of coming up, coming up is the NFL season, and you can bet game by game at MyBooky. Go to MyBooky.ag or MyBooky.com. Use my promo code, Kevin D.C. Right now, Washington is only a five-and-a-half-point favorite over Arizona at My Booky. They have been a six-point favorite. At one point, I think there was six and a half. It's down to five and a half.

That's probably an indication of some sharp money, maybe on Arizona. It's early. It's only July 11th. But go to mybooky.com or mybooky.orgie. A.G. Use my promo code, Kevin, D.C., and you can secure a first deposit bonus of up to $1,000. You just have to use my promo code, Kevin, D.C.

Jay Gruden, next, right after these words. from a few of our sponsors. Jay Gruden is my guest, of course, the former head coach of the Washington Redskins. Jay was. And, you know, Jay and I were just talking before we started to record. And, you know, you're looking for something to do right now. You had the gig with the Rams last year. And I mean, why?

I said this to you before we started to record, but you should be doing NFL media. there are so many former coaches and players that aren't nearly as astute, but more importantly, entertaining than you. So why aren't you doing that? I have no idea. Maybe I need you as my agent. I need somebody to get out there and call the right people, get in front of the right guys, and try that route. But I don't know. I just haven't got an opportunity.

I'm making a note of that right now, and I'm being serious. I can't represent you. I wouldn't do that, but I can certainly make a call to one or two places. But I think I did that once before. I don't know. Jay Gruden should be doing NFL analyst work at the NFL Network or ESPN or doing games. There are just a lot of guys out there that are not as good or not as entertaining and quick-witted and fun as Jay Gruden would be. But that's from this seat.

Who knows? That's quite a compliment. Thank you. So what do you think Sam Howell's going to do this year? Yeah, that's a question everybody has to find out. That's going to be an important part of Ron Revere's tenure moving forward, right? I mean, he's got to play well. I think they've got to show significant improvement.

They have a very good defense coming back. They had a good receding core. That's good backs, without a doubt. I've got Logan Thomas, a decent tight end. Offensive line should be improved a little bit. So it's going to be up to Sam and how he does and the success of our football team moving forward. I mean, there's no secret in the NFL. The key to success is a good quarterback.

All the teams that are favored to win the NFL or win the Super Bowl have the best quarterbacks. And Sam Howell's got to perform. I like the fact that he's athletic. Obviously, there's a lot of unknowns out there with his accuracy. He showed some toughness in the Dallas game, the only game that he played. He showed some accuracy, some anticipation. But to do that over the course of 17 games is yet to be seen. but I think you got to love his upside and he love his talent.

I mean, do you have a gut feel? Have you watched any of his college tape? Have you watched the Dallas game, but I mean, that was kind of a meaningless end-of-season game. I mean, do you have a gut feel on whether or not he is going to be the guy and end up, you know, being one of those guys that come out of nowhere, fifth-round pick and end up being a legitimate NFL starter? Yeah, it's just odd to me that he was projected to be a first-round pick, top 10 pick there for a while.

and then all of a sudden he dropped down to the fifth round for some reason, which I don't know why. I think his offensive line, you lost a lot of players last year at North Carolina. His offensive line wasn't that good. He was get hit a lot, which could be the case of Washington. But that was, that's my biggest concern. Why did he drop from such a highly talented kid at North Carolina from a first round projected pick to the fifth round? Obviously he didn't have a great last year at North Carolina, but the talent's there. And there's no questioning that.

that he can run and he can rip the ball and throw a lot of different types of balls, touch balls, deep balls. But we'll have to wait and see. There's something missing. That's why he dropped to the fifth round. But there's been a few other quarterbacks that have been dropped in the fourth and fifth round. I've had success. Yeah, but very few.

And I've talked a lot about this. And, you know, you have a portion of the fan base that just wants everybody to stand down when you even question, you know, why Sam Howe dropped to the fifth round. the same group of people that thought Carson Wentz was an absolute steal, you know, this time last year. And I had Scott McLuhan on the show, I don't know, a month and a half ago, something like that. And I said, you know, there's been a lot of discussion, especially from the team. You know, they've tried to prop up this Sam Howell as the QB won by saying, we had a first, second round grade on him. I mean, there's no reason why he should have dropped to the fifth round.

Well, then why didn't you take them earlier? Like they had opportunities in the fourth round. They traded down in the fourth round to get to the fifth round pick. They could have lost him there. And I guess, and I asked Scott, and I'm going to ask you the same thing. Quarterbacks, that position, they don't just drop because statistically the last year was like an off year. I mean, Josh Allen statistically fell off. Quarterbacks are evaluated based on what they're going to do at the NFL level, not on college stats.

right or wrong? Yeah, a lot of that's true. There's no doubt about it. You can gauge a lot about a quarterback, especially if they have a lot of games under their belt. I mean, it's not like Sam only played one year. He played, you know, a few years in North Carolina. So he had a lot of game tape for people to evaluate him,

not just his combine, not just his pro day, but he had some game tape. And that's the concerning part of it. You know, if he had that many games on tape, why did he drop to the fifth round? but, you know, people make mistakes. And who knows, maybe he's a gamer and he'll light it up. But there are some concerns.

I would be just a little bit reluctant to say that, oh, he's the future of the franchise. But he does have a talent to deserve an opportunity to see where he can take it. I read that you said, and I'm going to read the quote here, you said that Sam Hal is Ron Rivera's meal ticket this year. Explain. Yeah, I think that if he shows progress and shows that he could be the future of this franchise, then yes, I think that Ron can ride Sam's coattails to the future of this organization. Now, Sam fails miserably and they have to turn to Jacoby Brissette,

and they go 7 and 10 or 6 and 11 or what have you, then I think it'll be trouble for Ron without a doubt. The uncertainty at the quarterback position usually means coaches get fired and new coaches get hired to try to turn a franchise round. Obviously, that's what happened to me when we lost Alex Smith. We went to, obviously, all the quarterbacks we went to, and I couldn't, you know, muster up enough wins, I get fired. And it all relies on the quarterback success. And if Sam has success this year, and I think that'll buy lots and time, and they could have a pretty good future. You know, what you just described is exactly how some of us described your situation heading into 2019.

And that was maybe your meal ticket to more than just 2019 is developing a young quarterback in Dwayne Haskins. And that's kind of what you just described with respect to Ron Rivera and Sam Hal. Why didn't you view Dwayne Haskins that way? Well, he just wasn't ready. You know, Dwayne was a project. We knew that. And that's why I was reluctant to take him in the first round,

because I didn't have time to develop a project. I had one year. I was one and done. I knew it going into that year. They didn't renew my assistant coach's contracts, and I knew it. So it's very difficult to develop a quarterback when you don't have any time to develop them.

So Sam has to be ready to play. Sam is a little bit more athletic. There are certain things you could do more with Sam. They can do it. Dwayne is more of a pocket passer. Pocket passers need time to see the concepts. They need time to see the defenses, the protections, make the audibles necessary to be successful. And that takes tight.

It took Peyton Manning time. It took degrees time. It takes a lot of the great quarterback's time to develop to be a true drop-back passer. Now, when you're an athlete, there are more things you can do with the RPO's and the zone reads and things like that to be successful at the quarterback position. We just didn't have that time with Duane, unfortunately. I mean, I understand, I think most do understand the difference between a guy like Sam Hal and Dwayne Haskins in terms of mobility. but wasn't Duane's athleticism maybe a little bit underrated? Maybe a little bit.

I don't think anybody would say that he's a great athlete. You know, he doesn't run very fast, and he's just a big guy. He's a big guy. He's more of pocket, rip it, let it rip tight quarterback. He needed to work on his, obviously, his anticipation, a little bit of his accuracy to be a true drop-back quarterbacking himself. But he could run a little bit. I mean, it wasn't like he was a sitting duck back there,

but he's not like a Sam Howell or some of these other quarterbacks are athletic, of Josh Allen or Patrick Mahomes or Lamar Jackson. You can't put him in that category. So, like, as you look at Sam Howe, and what if he is a project, which, by the way, I think you could describe him that very fairly right now. It's a project. Now, it doesn't mean it's going to fail. I mean, that doesn't have to be sort of a negative description heading in.

It could be a project that turns out to be an A-plus down the road. but what if it's a, you know, kind of a slow to medium developing project? You know, there are lots of ups and downs, which I think you would expect with a young quarterback in his first year of starting. Can Ron Rivera survive that? I think it just depends on the new owner and what route he wants to take and how the team has responded. Are they competing every game?

Are they losing games 30 to 3? Are they losing games 26 to 25 or what have? they're competing in every weekend. Well, they're showing a lot of competitiveness, which a lot of the guys on this team will compete, the Montess West, the Drum Payne, Jop and Allen. These guys will compete Terry McCoran, Jah, Hardback, Docs. These guys can compete their ass off.

So they show great competitive toughness. They might lose some close games because of the up-and-down play of Sam Hall. I think Ron will get another shot. But, you know, if they start getting blown out like we did the last couple of games against New England and against the Giants, then you probably have to make a change at the coaching position. Do you have any thoughts on Jacoby Brissette? I've always liked Jacoby. He's a tough kid.

I think he's like one of the top premier backups you can have. He's a great guy, you know, very similar to a way we view like some of the guys that we have over the course of time on our team. You know, Colt McCoy's quality backups that can be a starter and get you through some games. And yes, I don't know if you want Jacoby to be your full-time starter. Can he win you Super Bowls? I'm not sure about that. but he can win you games and get you out of some pinches and be a great leader for your football team. As long as you're playing great defense and you're able to run the ball,

guys like Jacoby Preset can have a lot of success. And maybe they do turn to him as Sam Powell turns the ball over a lot. He can win your games as long as that defense is playing the top-notch level that they should play. What do you think of Eric Bienemy? I don't think I've had you on since they hired him. Maybe I did. I can't remember. But what are your thoughts about Biener? Well, anytime you're in a building with Andy Reed, you're going to learn a lot.

And obviously, he's been at the right place with the right guy, with the right system. So if he can bring that type of system to Washington, he'll have a lot of success. They spread the ball around. They use their tight end extremely well. Obviously, that Hall of Fame tight end, I don't know if Washington has that, but they run the ball effectively. They do a lot of different things, formationally. They get people open.

so if he can bring that to Washington, whether or not he called plays, I do not know that. I think Annie Reid was the premier play call. I think everybody can agree with that. But still being on that staff warrants him an opportunity to come to another team and run the show. So, yeah, I think he obviously has a great background and should have some success with calling plays here. Not only a Hall of Fame tight end, but a Hall of Fame quarterback, you know, already. I failed to mention that. There's about 30 plays a game that Patrick Mahomes makes on his own that aren't scripted in the playbook.

That makes a big difference. What makes a good play caller? I think, first of all, you've got to utilize the people that you have. That's the most important thing, and they utilize their star power. You know, Travis Kelsey, you know that he's going to get the ball, and they're going to line them up in different spots to get him the ball. And that's the most important thing is utilize your best play. So here they got to utilize Terry McClure, obviously.

They got to get their running game involved to protect the quarterback and young quarterback and take their shots accordingly. Utilize personnel groupings, formations, motions, and then do some things occasionally that nobody's ever seen. You know, you can't do the same thing over and over again. People say, hey, you're not going to get good unless you do the same thing. You've got to be diverse in what you do, formationally and play calling and red zone. unique formations. And there's always a player, too, in a game of Kansas City, if you watch

their games, there's going to be a formation or a play that you've never seen before. You know, maybe it's they'll bring in a big, drawn paint a foldback and throw the ball in a flat or something crazy, or, they always do something crazy like that to try to give their offense an edge, but for the most part, it's utilizing their

weapons, being off balance as far as, you know, the defense can't never really get set. You know, they're in 11 personnel, 12 personnel, 21 personnel, they're in bunches, they're in stacks, they're in eye formation. It's just hard to get a gauge for a defensive coordinator to get comfortable when you're utilizing so many different weapons and formations and personnel groups.

What's your true preference? You were a head coach, you were an offensive coordinator, and you were an offensive head coach. If the pay were the same, which job would you prefer to do, like starting tomorrow? Offense coordinator for sure. Why? That's what I love. Well, I love that.

I like offense coordinator, but I also love the personnel part of it. I love the draft. I love free agency. I love studying players because at the end of the day, it's the player's game, and you have to have good players to be successful, especially at the quarterback position, but everywhere. You've got to have a good line of scrimmage. You've got to have speed at whiteout.

You've got to have a pass rush. You've got to have some run stoppers. You've got some corners that can play man-to-man. So you've got to find players. and you're not going to have first ballot pro bowlers at every position. You've got to coach these guys up and you've got to find the right guys to stick what you want to do. But play calling is what I like to do best.

I like going after defense is going after quarters, man and two-man and all the different things and zone blitzes and picking them up from protection standpoint. It's a great chess game and it's a lot of fun. Is there a stretch of games or maybe a specific game, whether it was in Cincinnati as the O.C. or in Washington as the head coach, where you just felt like you were, you know, unstoppable as a play caller, that you had, you know, the defenses and the defensive coordinators scratching their heads completely off balance. You were in rhythm and you were in total command. Are there games or a game that sticks out?

I think my first vision of that was our first recollection would be Cincinnati in 2000. 13, and we had Iford, Germain Gresham and Andy, he was playing high-level, A.J. Green, Marvin Jones, Hawkins, we were, we were, we were, Geovine Bernard, we were pretty good. We beat the crap out of a lot of teams, and we were scoring 35, 40 points, easy. We beat the Jets. We scored 40 on the Jets. We scored 40 on the Giants, I think, or 35, or whatever. We were pretty unstoppable. And then when I got here, I think, our best, when Jordan Reed was was healthy in Vernon Davis, and we had Pierre and Sean and Jameson Croutter, we were

pretty darn good. We could hit you a lot of different ways. We could beat you in the running game. We could beat you with a tight end play. We had speed down the field, which is Sean. We had toughness at Widerstere with Pierre. We were pretty good then, too. Wasn't it the 2013 playoff loss at home to the Chargers that Wade Phillips kind of suggested at some point in the media that he knew what was coming? I forget the specifics of that. Do you know what I'm talking about? He wasn't with the Chargers. Wade was with the Texans. We lost the Texans. The Texans, that was it. That was it. Okay.

And 11, 11, they could have done whatever. They had one of the best defenses in their play. I mean, JJ Watt was unstoppable. It was hard. Right, right. That's right. To get anything off with them. And then 12, we had chance to beat them. We ran an out and up on the sideline at the end of the game. And Andy just missed AJ for a touchdown and go-head touchdown.

And then the Chargers last year, we lost Ifer at the game before against Baltimore. Baltimore was defending champions. We had to play them in Week 16 and Week 17 the last game of the year. They had to win to get in. And it was a bloodbath, and we lost two or three key offensive players in that game, which hurt us a lot. And then we fumbled at the one-yard line, Gio fumbled

going in at half time. And then the Chargers ran the ball, suspect that we kept us off the field pretty much for the game. By the way, those Texans teams with Bill O'Brien as the head coach and the quarterbacks that they had, guys like T.J. Yates and you know, other guys. I've always used

them is the one example, Jay, of a team over the last 10 to 15 years that was dominant defensively but did not have a quarterback and yet consistently qualified for the postseason. Now, they didn't have a chance to win a Super Bowl because they didn't have a quarterback. But, you know, one of the things I was going to ask you, and it's probably the perfect segue, is knowing that Washington's defense coming into this season, you know, has a chance. They were, by most, metrics at top 10 defense last year. There's no reason to think that it won't be as good this year. If it is as good, but on offense, your quarterback isn't good enough. What's the best you can hope for? Like, how many games can you actually win with just a great defense, but a very average to subpar offense?

I'm going to win a lot, really. I mean, we won nine. We were nine and seven in Cincinnati in my first year with rookie indie quarterback, rookie A.J. rookie everywhere. And then we went 10 and 6, then we went 11 and 5. So you win a lot of games if you play good defense. Mike Zimmer is our defensive coordinator. We had five or six first rounders on defense playing. Very good pass rush, great secondary, a great blitz package. And you can, as a play caller, you can ride your defense.

And you don't have to get first, if it's third and 10, you don't have to get 10 yards. You can maybe throw a screen pass or try a draw and try to get it in there and then punt and back them up and get the ball. right back, you know you're going to get it back. When you don't have a good defense of a young quarterback, then you're forced to try to get those first down. You put your quarterback in harm's way. You're going to get them hit a lot.

It's a lot more difficult as a play caller. So you can still win a lot of games without a doubt, knowing that as a play caller. You don't have to take as many risks. You can be a little bit more conservative, yet passively aggressive and still win a lot of games, 20 to 17. You can get 20 points easy as a play caller with the talent they have on offense.

And if your defense is playing good, You can win a lot. You can go to playoffs. You can win Super Bowls with a subpar quarterback that's been done. It's been done. It's been done. But, you know, as I think about your Cincinnati teams, and you're making the case that those Cincinnati teams are the same as what I described with Houston or what I may be describing with Washington this year. But you had, you know, Dalton wasn't subpar those years. I mean, he may have been an average quarterback, but you had really good weapons. You already described that around them. I'm talking about the quarterback situation and the offensive situation that Houston had, where you literally didn't have anywhere near good enough at quarterback. But they were dominant defensively. They were dominant defensively, and they could run the ball.

They played great time of position. I don't know what their time of position was, but I know against us in the first playoff game, they had the ball for like 12 plays in the first half. I mean, they just ran the ball, ran the ball, completed short pass. and up and down the field. And they just kept us off the field, and their defense stayed fresh. And when their defense came out, they were rushing the passer. They were hitting, I mean, they were all over the place.

They had different formations. They line J.J. Wad up at nose. They line them up at three techniques. Line them up at defense then. Could never get a gauge on where he was. He was batting balls down and hitting the quarterback in the face. I mean, it was a nightmare. And they had a good secondary.

But they did a great job on offense. They didn't put up great numbers, but the time of position that they had was outstanding with the running game. Right. I mean, I guess I've thought about teams like Denver in recent years that have been dominant defensively but haven't had the quarterback. The Jets have been really good defensively. Buffalo before they got Josh Allen. They were very good defensively. And they, you know, they were 5 and 11, 6 and 10, 7 and 9 type of teams. Like as I think of Washington with the defense that I think could be top 10 again, maybe better, if they had an Andy Dalton like quarterback in Sam Hal or even better a Kirk Cousins type of quarterback in Sam

Howell, they'd be a playoff team, right? Oh, for sure, for sure. There's no question about it. You know, me, look at some of the best defenses of all time with the fuckenaires and my brother was a coach. You know, we did good enough on offense with Brad Johnson and Keyeshaun and Keenan McArdle. We had some good weapons of Michael Pittman and guys like that. And then obviously the Ravens with Trent Dilfer. I mean, they were the best defense, probably in the history of football with that Ray Lewis and Ed Reed and all those guys. I mean, oh, my God.

I mean, you couldn't do anything against those guys. I don't know if you can put Washington's defense in those categories right now, obviously. But you can win a lot of games with a guy like Billfer of Brad Johnson if your defense is playing good. And same, you know, Houston did it. We did it. And, you know, but who knows how Sam Howell is going to be. Maybe he's going to be better than a lot of those guys. Right.

Maybe not. Yeah, I think it's one of those interesting conversations. you know, about today's NFL, because, you know, you're going back to 2000, 2001, 2002, you know, which is really, like the 49ers have had a dominant defense here recently. They got to a Super Bowl, and they were within a whisker of getting to another one when they lost the NFC championship game to the Rams, and look, they played five quarterbacks or whatever they played against the Eagles. So they've gotten close, but they haven't won it with, you know, subpar or very.

very, very average quarterback play. I'm just wondering, and I think that's a conversation many of us have as fans in this day and age of the NFL, can you actually win it all the way Baltimore did, the way Tampa did? I mean, look, Brad Johnson was better than Dilfer, right? You would agree with that. Yeah, I would agree with that. Yeah. So Baltimore is really the last example we have of a team with really not very much on offense or a quarterback that won at all. And that's one of the great defenses of all time. I just don't know if, well, I'll ask you, do you think that can be done again in today's league,

the way it's played and the way it's officiated and, you know, et cetera? Yeah, I do. I do. I think great defenses will provide you an opportunity to win every game that you play. Great quarterback play and great defenses will give you a chance to win every game. If you really go back and look at the Giants through Super Bowl, it's not like Eli Manning lit it up or it was like a, you know,

like throwing for 5,000 yards or anything. They played an unbelievable defense too. So you got to be able to play good defense. You got to be able to get out to the quarterback, stop the run, and I think Washington has a chance to do that this year. Yeah, I mean, there's no doubt that against the Patriots in those two games, their pass rush was the difference making part of that.

Although Eli had a couple of years, though, there, Jay. where he really, like, you know, there's going to be a conversation about Eli Manning and the Hall of Fame. He had, you know, a 5,000-yard season or close to it, you know, the year that they won the Super Bowl the second time. The second time. Yeah. He had some of those years where they were pretty good on offense, but, you know, against Brady, it was the interior, you know, Justin Tucker, et cetera, that really made the difference in those two Super Bowls. Yeah, Michael Strayhan. I have a little bit to do with that.

Yeah, a lot to do with it. All right. You said about the other thing that you like doing. And I know we've talked about this before, but, you know, McLuhan mentioned it to me again, and I think it was unprompted, if I recall, when he was on with us a month and a half ago. He has said multiple times that you are by far and away the best talent evaluating head coach that he's ever worked with. and in fact he just said, Matt Ionitis. We would not have had Matt Ionitis if it weren't for Jay.

Give me some names of players that you guys got that it was really you who pushed for. Well, I mean, all of them, I'd like to think most of them. I mean, you've got to put it into work. You know, I think that a lot of times you just read, some people just read articles and see a few highlights here and there, but you've got to put it into work and study these guys. I mean, to get a pure evaluation, it takes a lot of time. I mean, I can remember going in right after the season is over, and we started on free agency, start on our own players,

and then going into free agency and watching all the possible free agents that we could get to help our football team. And then once free agency hit, we're done with that, then it's right into the draft, in the pro days, in the senior bowl, and the East West Shrine game, and studying all these guys' reps that they play, quarterbacks, receivers, tight ends, O-line, D-line, pass rushers, I mean, corners. It takes a lot of time.

because there's a lot of players to evaluate. So, yeah, Cole Holcomb was a guy that nobody had on our, we didn't have them on our board as far as draftable. And, you know, I was watching North Carolina play. We had a couple guys to watch, and this guy had 100 tackles three years in a row. I was like, why is this guy not on our board? He didn't get invited at the combine.

And when I saw those pro day ran 4-4-9, I go, we got to draft this guy. They're all laughing at me. There's no way we can draft this guy. He's not draftable. So we ended up drafted him, and he had a pretty good, He's starting lineback in the NFL, which is pretty impressive.

But there's a lot of guys like that that we kind of got late that really helped our football team. And I'm proud of that because of the work that I put in. And obviously, our scouts had a lot to do it. You've got to do the background check and the interviews at the Combine. I love to get to know the players at the Combine and watching them play and doing an evaluation. I've been wrong on some guys. I've been riding a lot of guys. Payne's another guy.

I went to bat for who were going to draft a couple other guys. Pain. Pain was one of my all-time favorites. I love Toronto. Obviously, Jonathan Allen was an easy pick. Actually, Ruben Foster was a thought at that first round pick. We thought Jonathan Allen was going to go. I loved Ruben.

I was probably wrong on Rubin, but yeah, a lot of injuries. I still think he would have been a good player if it wasn't for his injuries. But Jonathan was an easy one. Terry McCorn on the third round was just a dream pick for us. He fell right to us, which was just crossing our fingers and hoping to goodness that he'd fall to us. and he did. But yeah, I mean, it's a great process that's fun to see who you get and see how they perform after all the work that you put in and study them. What made you fall in love with Duran Payne?

Well, I think the Georgia game and the playoff game, I've never seen a guy wrecked game as much as he did. Rushing the pass or stop on the run. He could penetrate gaps. He could play two gap. He could take on double teams. I mean, he could do it all. I mean, he had strength, he had power, he had stamina. There wasn't really a weakness in his game that I could find. And I was like, okay, maybe is he lazy? No, he's not lazy. Is he a terrible pass rusher? No, he got plenty of sacks.

You know, so there is not a weakness. And he's big, is he young, is he strong? Does he work hard? Nick Saban loved him. So, yeah, there's nothing not to like about him. Yeah, I remember specifically that draft and hearing how much all of you guys loved pain. But, you know, a lot of the conversation I remember was about Vita Vaya

and also whether or not Derwin James would be there at 13. Do you remember what the evaluations on those two players were? Yeah, they had Vita Vaya a lot higher than Jonathan, which I disagree. Vita's a great player, don't get me wrong. Higher than Duran, you mean, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just thought Vita was like a two-gap player, at a good run-stopper. I just thought, I thought pain was more of an all-purpose-type defense-alime. You can line them up at nose. You can line them up at three. You can line them up

a four-eye. You could do a lot of different things with Duran. Whereas Vita-Ve had, my opinion, was just strictly a nose-guard, two-gap-type player. Now, he can rush a passer a little bit better than probably I anticipated, but not like Duran, in my opinion. And then Dirlwind James, he was a special player now. He's a big, strong physical kid out of Florida State. I didn't think he was going to fall to us, and obviously he didn't. Well, he did fall to you. You guys, he was on the- He was available.

Yeah, he was on the board when you guys picked Duran. There was a lot of talk about Dirlwind. That's right. That's exactly right. So, yeah, I think we could have gone, Derwent. But I just, I wanted to really build up our defense line. You know, I'm a big believer in stopping to run and rushing the passer. And I just thought, Dron Payne fit that build a little bit more could help us on the interior. When I first got the job at Washington, we were old up front on the defense line.

Other than really, we had a RACPO and Kerrigan. Obviously, the Rackpo, we lost after my first year, but we didn't have any past rushers. Our interior pass rush was non-existent. They built themselves for like a three, four, two-gap team with no penetration. I wanted guys that could hit the gaps and get the quarterback, because you're in so much nickel nowadays, four-down defense alignment, you had to have people to get to the quarterback,

and I thought getting Jonathan Allen and Drone Payne, and obviously still having Kerrigan, and then having, obviously, Montez-Swett really would help us in the long run. Safeties are a little bit easier to find, but not that easy. Sterwyn James still would have been a great pick, and I still would think he would have flourished here, no doubt about it. I don't think we could have gone wrong with either one of those picks, but I just thought Duran was more of an impactful player for us in a knee position.

You know, it's interesting, and we've talked a lot about this in the last year or two. I mean, this is a really, really good defense, but basically, you know, it was the regime before that is responsible for pain, Alan, and sweat as well. You liked sweat, right? I mean, this is the guy that you guys considered if Dan hadn't gotten involved, taking, you know, at 15 overall instead of Dwayne. Yeah, sweater, Savage, really Savage was another guy. Right, Savage from Maryland. Yeah.

A speed guy that could play nickel and play safety, free safety, strong safety, and nickel, we thought his versatility was pretty good. He could run and he could hit, he was physical. He's had a pretty good career at Green Bay. But sweat, but sweat, his ability to run. I think the way the NFL was going with speed at quarterback, you know, the Lamar Jackson's, he had to have people that could run. That's why we wanted, what he ran 4-4 as a combine for God's sake. So to have a guy that can rush a pass or run and pick up some of these own reads

and run quarterbacks down when they get outside the pocket. These Mahomes, he fielded homes and Josh Allen and these quarterbacks do outside the pocket on unscripted plays. You have guys that can run and go get them. And Sweat could do that. on Duran and John in particular. So ESPN's got coaches, scouts, GMs that, you know, on the condition of anonymity every year, rank the top 10 at each position. And they came out with the defensive tackle list the other day.

And Duran was higher than John. Duran was the eighth best defensive tackle in the game. John was the 10th. If you had a choice and you could only pick one, Payne or Allen, who are you taking? I love them both without a doubt, but I still think I probably take Duran. I think he's just a little bit more versatile in what he can do as far as stopping the run and rushing the – I mean, they're both great. I mean, that's a tough call.

I love them both, really. But I probably still lean towards Duran. If I had a gun on my head, I'd probably take Duran. But I would not be upset in one regard if we had to take Jonathan instead. Yeah, Duran, like you just described, to me, like he's always been the – the one athletically and in terms of being able to potentially just wreck a game, as you described, he's the one that has that ability. But John is steady-eddy.

Like, you're never going to go wrong. He's a great player. And he's been more consistent than Duran. Although last year we saw Duran finally, you know, generate week-to-week consistency, which is why he got paid. Yeah. So, real quickly. I agree.

I mean. Yeah, go ahead. Well, I think a lot of times Duran gets put in a nose tackle position where he's forced to take a lot of the double teams. He doesn't have that freedom to rush the passers much. When he does get that freedom, you can see that he, I think what do you have, nine or ten facts last year? Yeah, something like that. Yeah. Yeah.

So, you know, once he gets freed up and can rush, so if he didn't have Jonathan there, he moved him to more of a past rush type three technique type. Now he's no Aaron Donald, don't get me wrong, but he can muster the past rush and he can play the run. probably better Aaron Ollum, but he obviously can't rush a passer. But he's up there with, he obviously was ranked eighth overall. I think he probably should be like fourth or fifth, in my opinion. Yeah, 11 and a half sacks last year. Real quickly, one more on the draft, because I actually don't think I've ever talked to you about this.

Maybe I have. I don't have the memory of all for conversations, but what happened with Josh Doxon in 2016? Oh, yeah, that was a tough one. You know, we really had high hopes on getting the center out of Alabama. Ryan Kelly. Ryan Kelly. Yeah, that was the whole

intent of that draft. We're going to get them. And the backup plan for if he was not available was not really good enough. And when he got taken by the cold, I remember Scott hit the desk with his fist, almost broke his hand. And then we went

and it was really not a very good receiver draft, but we needed a whiteout badly. I think the kid from Notre Dame four was there. He might have got taken right before. You guys traded with Houston. You moved down a spot. They took Fuller.

You took Doxon. And then I think the kid from the miss. The only other players available for us to take were Geron Reed from Alabama, Aishon Robinson, from Alabama. And I really didn't want one of those guys. They weren't, in my opinion. Ashon I wasn't really a big fan of. And obviously, Reed was a decent player. He's more of an undersized guy.

He played a pretty good effort. but we needed a wideout. And after the first three or four wideouts in the first round, the rest of them was really not a very good receiver class. It's terrible. We figured we had to take one at that point, or we weren't going to get one at all. So Doxon was the highest-graded guy we had, and we took him.

The unfortunate thing about him was an injury history. We didn't really do a good enough job to see the amount of injuries that he had, and that carried over to his play here. He just got her a lot. It's had bad. heel, bad ankles. He never really was fully 100% where he could really utilize his leaping ability. He wasn't going to separate with speed, but he did have an unbelievable ability to track the ball and jump. And we just never got the opportunity to see that because of his injuries.

Corey Coleman, Will Fuller, Josh Doxon, LaQuan Treadwell. We're all picked in the first round. The best receivers out of that draft were Michael Thomas and Tyler and Boyd. Yeah, we missed on Michael Thomas. There's no doubt about that. Michael Thomas, Ohio State, he just looked like he couldn't run very good. And this is weird. Nobody could really see what he could do in a slot and what he could do in different formations. The way the Saints used him was perfect.

They line him up in the two spot a lot, outside, inside, got him some haxed, and he's a big, strong physical kid. And we just weren't able to do it with Josh because of his injuries. hindsight is 50-50, as Steve Spurrier once said. But was there any conversation at all about Derek Henry in that draft? You guys didn't have a little bit. You didn't have a back. Yes.

I can remember we had them projected the second or third round, and I can remember once we lost on the center, Kelly, I can remember saying, what about this big kid from Alabama? No, I can't take him this high. So yeah, he was a phenomenal specimen. Obviously, he's proven that, but we ended up going with the receiver instead. All right, let's take a break with Jay Gruden. And when we come back, I will ask him to give us his thoughts on the end of the Dan Snyder era.

We'll do that right after these words from a few of our sponsors. All right. Last one for you. I appreciate the time, as always. were less than two weeks away from a dream come true for people like me who have been lifelong fans of the team. And that is that this era of Dan Snyder owning the team is going to end. What are the thoughts that go through your mind?

I mean, you didn't grow up rooting for this team, but you coached it for several years. Are you happy for the fan base that this is finally coming to an end? What would you say to, you know, in terms of your thoughts on this? Yeah, I think you have to be happy without a doubt. I think moving forward with a new owner will be very beneficial for this organization. I just think Dan made it too much about himself as far as trying to put his stamp on the team as far as picking players and coaches and some of the things.

And he wasn't experienced enough in the business to make those decisions. He didn't put the work in for him to pick a player. a draft is asinine because he didn't put the work in. He didn't watch the players. He didn't go to the meetings. He didn't sit in a scout meeting. You know, Mike Brown with the Cincinnati Bengals, I was there, Mike Brown sat in every meeting, and he watched the film.

He put the work in. So when he made a decision, it was based on what he saw, what he took in from the coaches and what he took in from the scout. So I respected that. I don't respect the guy who comes in and doesn't watch the film and makes picks and tells you who who is signing free agency. It makes no sense. when we're doing all the film work and the scouts are doing all the work,

and all of a sudden he comes in and makes a pick. So I think it's going to be a very beneficial move for all the fans and for the organization moving forward. I know that he's the owner, and that's the easy answer to this question, but how frustrating was it for you and Bruce and everybody else? Did anybody ever confront him over that? He's the owner. I mean, I used to say when I was in the arena,

guys would complain about the ownership and meals. I said, if you want to be an owner, go buy a team. You know, but you have to respect the fact that he put himself in position to own a football team. And if you're the owner and the boss, then you can do things the way you want to. That's just why you have to accept it. I mean, you have a boss. I've had bosses before. And when you're not the boss, you have to do what the boss says.

And I did that. I was trying to be a good coach and a, you know, a good employee. employee, that's my job, was to listen to the owner, but to put in my input. And if my input was used, great, if not, then I had to deal with it, do the best I could with what I had. Jay Gruden, everybody. I always appreciate this, Jay. Thanks so much for doing it. Hope you're well. You got it. Thanks. All right, that is it for the day. Back tomorrow with Tommy.