The Kevin Sheehan Show - Jay Wright....Wizards?

Episode Date: June 17, 2021

Kevin and Thom today opened the show talking Wizards' coaching vacancy with an interesting big name possibility thrown into the mix. Also discussed, Ben Standig's interview with Ron Rivera where Rivera disclosed that the QB competition is between Ryan Fitzpatrick and Taylor Heinicke very clearly leaving out Kyle Allen as part of it. At 54:40, Kevin finishes up the show with Dave Ungrady (author of the Len Bias book, Born Ready) and long-time Baltimore Sun reporter/columnist Don Markus talking about their Len Bias legacy project.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Cheon Show. Here's Kevin. Tommy's with me today. And then a little bit later on in the show, Don Marcus from the Baltimore son and Dave Ungrady,

who wrote the Born Ready book about Len Bias. They are working on something together to, it's the 34 plus one campaign, 35 years since Len Bias passed. away on June 19th. We had Dave on the show a few months back. They will join us. We'll talk about the Len bias legacy with both of them. But Tommy's here and there's a lot to get to because a lot's happened over the last 24 hours. I had Steve Sands on the show yesterday and right in the middle of the interview, the Scott Brooks News broke. By the way, I would suggest to anybody,

if you're interested, I had Tommy Shepard on the radio show this morning. He was really good. One of the things he did say was there was no offer to Scott Brooks. You know, it sort of got reported, Tommy, by Adrian Wojnerowski, that they could not come to an agreement on terms. I asked specifically if there was an offer that wasn't agreed to on terms, and he said, no, there was never an offer. He said there were discussions about various things, but there was never an offer. They had made up their mind early on that they were going to move on from Scott Brooks. I'm guessing that that the discussion said, Scott, you could say as long as your buddy,

Russell Westbrook, two years, and you know that $7 million a year you're making, cut that in half. Well, I mean, that was my thought yesterday is that what made sense based on Wohd-Norowski's story is that the Wizards went to him and said, look, we'll give you a year

with a team option for a second for half the money or whatever. And if you want that, you can take it, but Tommy was very adamant that there was never a negotiation or a conversation about him staying on. There were discussions about the season and about the future, but never, you know, a negotiation that led to any sort of offer. So for what it's worth. I also did ask him, Tommy, I said, did you consult with Russell Westbrook? Did you consult with your two stars, both? And he said, absolutely. And I said, are you taking me?

their input on the next coach. And he said, absolutely. You know, we're living in a different age now. You know, it's like with the Packers, the Packers made a big mistake a year ago. And, you know, the whole sports world noticed that. And anyway, look, I said this on the show and then I'll let you have at it. I really like Scott Brooks personally. I understand that there's much more to being a head coach than X's and O's. but I have no problem with this at all.

I've never thought that Scott Brooks was a strong exes and O's coach. I felt that way when he was at Oklahoma City. I am absolutely sure he was good at a lot of the other things, managing people, managing stars, creating hopefully a chemistry that worked to a certain degree. But to me, for me, I like guys that when I look out there, It's like that guy really knows what he's doing. He's really making these adjustments.

It's funny, I asked Tommy Shepard this morning, I said specifically, you know, other than, you know, he doesn't have the same players he had and it wasn't the job that necessarily he was taking when he took it five years ago, which is what Tommy said. I said, specifically, you know, what were the things that the team lacked under Scott Brooks that for you, Tommy, had to change? And he said, well, I don't want to get into that. And then, you know, fortunately, he did get into it. And he talked a lot about, and I'll just net it out, a lot about offensive structure, you know,

and having more sort of options offensively, you know, and in shooting the ball better, but more importantly, having better shot selection, which you know for me has been a major frustration. Like, you know, Bradley gets doubled and it's like they don't know what to do next. and he essentially said that. And then I said, well, you didn't talk about defense. And then he got into, he stuck with the offense. And I said, a lot of people don't understand that when you run good offense and you make a defense work, your defense is more effective because you've gassed them a little bit.

And when you're an ISO team and a defense just stands with four guys standing and one guy guarding, it's a lot easier on the other end when they're. get to the other end and he said, and he said to me, he goes, 100% right. There's no doubt that there were, that X's and O's offensive sort of structure and understanding was a part of this, which made me feel like, you know, like I like Tommy to begin with, you know, I think he's doing a good job, but it made me feel better about the kind of guy they're going to reach out and try to hire. it's going to be, and by the way, no better X's and O's guy than Stan Van Gundy. Like one of the best offensive X's and O's coaches, and he is available.

However, it didn't work out with him in New Orleans. I was reading very early this morning, essentially because he doesn't, you know, he's not into, you know, a consensus build on how to run the team with his players. He's old school, and he wants to do it his way, and it didn't work out with a bunch of young players in New Orleans. But Van Gundy would be a phenomenal exes and O's higher. I'd love to see Sam Cassell get a shot. I just have a feeling watching him over the years and remembering him as a player that he would be a good coach. I asked Shepard if a college coach is a possibility. He said, yes, and an international coach.

we're going to be very robust in our research and and and you know be Becky Hammond everybody's talking about and you know lots of different possibilities there I hope the next coach is a guy that gets along with his players yes but can draw up a press break in a playoff game when you get pressed instead of not even being able to get the ball in bounce that's what I'd like to see I think, based on what I've heard, that if Tommy could get his choice, it would be Jay Wright. Now, he's not alone in that. There's a lot of NBA general managers who would love to have Jay Wright, the Villanova coach, as their next head coach.

Philly wanted him last year, and he basically turned them down. Now, they did okay for himself. They got Doc Rivers, which was. is a pretty good backup plan. But based on what I've heard, that if he could, he'd get Jay Wright, if he could convince Jay Wright to come here. And I'm not sure that would even be a good fit for this situation. But that's his guy.

That's the ultimate guy for him. And again, like I said, there's lots of guys who would like Jay Wright to coach their team. But I don't think that's going to happen. here's what else is probably here's what else is going to happen there's going to be some kind of big search committee thing you know this is what ted does exactly you know there'll be that that consultant that they that they used to try to hire a GM this this uh this english soccer official consultant who's consulted a lot of uh uh american sports teams on their personnel practices i forget the guy's name offhand. But he'll be involved. Shasha Brown will be involved. JT.3. That's part of the

three-headed front office. They'll be involved. There will be a search committee hired. It will be a TED undertaking to do it the right way. There is no doubt that what you said is true. And it will be built up. It will be something that they will be talking about using all of the business buzzwords. It'll be deep dive. It'll be consultants. It'll be exhaustive research and due diligence and patience and best business practices and the whole thing. We'll get the whole thing from Ted and the whole thing.

And Tommy, you'll probably be rolling his eyes a little bit because he'll know who he really wants. but he'll go along with it. But I do want to circle back to your, you know, your headliner here, Jay Wright. I don't know where you got that from, but I do know that Tommy is friends with Jay Wright. And I'm curious where you heard that. I'm going to tell you where I heard it. Well, I just want to know that you... I'm just telling you that it's pretty, I think it's pretty good information.

But again, I wouldn't get all excited about it because, A, I don't think he's leaving Villanova. And B, I'm not sure it's the right situation here for him. You know, I don't. I think he needs to, maybe he might think it's the right situation. I just don't have a good feeling. Jay Wright and Russell Westbrook working together. Yeah, I'm just trying to think of the other Jay Wright connections on the roster or in the organization. You know, when you said it, I'm just going to tell you, I had not thought about that.

I did ask him if a college coach was a possibility. He said yes, and an international coach is as well. And so I'm interested in, you know, I wasn't asking you to tell me. I didn't mean to ask you anyway to tell me where you got that from. I just think that it's an interesting thing because Jay Wright's been rumored for NBA jobs before. Now, personally, I think he'd be an absolute fool to come coach in the NBA. he has one of the all-time great setups at Villanova. You know, John Beeline, I think, made a major mistake a few years ago when he left to go coach the Cleveland Cavaliers.

Now, I think he's older and even much older than Jay Wright. You know, Jay Wright certainly looks a lot younger. I think he's about 10 years older, I think. You're probably right. And I just thought that was a hideous mistake. He had built a powerhouse at Michigan and played in two, you know, final. and final fours and, you know, lost one of them to Jay Wright, got blown out in that championship game a few years ago to Jay Wright. But I don't know, man, like I always think the same thing.

If you have an established situation at a power, like he has turned Villanova into not a blue blood, okay, and that is for my good friend Carlos Molina, who went to Villanova and my friend Mike Carberry and many others, who I know live for Villanova basketball. and believe that Villanova has ascended to a blue blood in recent years. They're not a blue blood, but they are on the top line of the next tier. And he'll go when he wants to go. There will never, ever be a time in which Jay Wright will be in trouble at Villanova. There was a time where he was in trouble at Villanova.

That's the irony about Jay Wright. You know, Jay Wright, you know, when they couldn't get out of the second round there for a few years, all the Villanova people wanted to change. And now that he's won two, you know, titles, you know, two within three years. He's the greatest ever, and they're a Blue Blood program. But I just think Jay Wright and any of these guys that have this set up, and by the way, they're getting paid. It's not like the money is going to be that different. It might be a little bit different, but it's not a lot different.

and I know you don't have to recruit, which for a lot of these coaches is the biggest pain in the ass of the job. But Villanova is almost recruiting on its own right now. Not that they're Kentucky or Carolina or Duke, but they get a lot of players based on reputation and based on a lot of people looking at Jay Wright as a great coach, as a smooth guy, communicator, you know, the whole thing. I don't see But you're right Look If he didn't take the Philly job last year

Whereas I understand You know he was the number one candidate With the talent that they have In his home In the town where he's working I don't think he's coming to Washington To coach his team So I mean

You know that that's just Pie in the sky But that would That would be the number one guy on the list after that, I don't know. I mean, it's interesting. You know, I know Tommy made his bones with his international scouting and his international connection. Yes.

I don't know anything about international coaches. So I don't know if there's who was the guy who got hired in Cleveland, the guy from Israel. I'm blanking on the name, but that's the guy. And it didn't last long with LeBron. Right. So I don't know how, if there's any international coaches out there. And, you know, I mean, Becky Hammond, I mean, I think she's going to wind up taking over for Pop if she coaches anywhere in the NBA. I think she'll wind up staying in San Antonio. So I don't think she'd be coming here, too.

I don't know who the next coach is going to be, but they're not going to be in a good situation unless they can train. read Bradley Beal, get a bunch of lottery picks for him, and start all over again. Right now, you're looking at a treading water situation all over again. No doubt. This is the league, and it's the biggest disparity in terms of the importance of talent overcoaching. No other league comes close. if you don't have the talent, it doesn't matter how great the coach is. I mean, you know, you've seen some really good jobs done by guys in recent years.

And Spolstra did an incredible job, you know, with Miami last year. But Jimmy Butler was playing at a pretty high level. It's really hard, no matter how great the coaches. And by the way, that's what these college coaches who have come to the NBA, including Brad Stevens, you know, have sort of realized it's just, much harder. Your impact on the final result of a game is less than it is in college basketball, and it's less than it is in any other sport of the major sports. It just isn't as significant. You're more of a people manager and making sure that you know, you got the right players and the

right mix and you're communicating and they like you and respect you and they play well together but you have to have the talent or it doesn't work uh i um i think the j right thing is interesting because i do remember hearing that he and tommy are friends and i'm trying to think where i heard it i think Tommy told me that on an interview um once and i think that's where i've heard it for. But anyway, hey, kids, boys and girls, I know Tommy well enough to know that when he just threw out Jay Wright's name, he didn't just throw it out there. Is that maybe it'll be a college coach like Jay Wright. So pay attention to this. Jay Wright, it would surprise me if he decided to leave Villanova. He's been talked about, and he seems to be certainly one of those guys that players would

sort of be attracted to, much more than John Beeline, which always seemed like sort of an NBA fish out of water coach to me, even though he's an exceptional coach. He's also a coach that micromanaged every possession. Jay Wright, not that way necessarily as a coach. That would be interesting. I'll tell you another thing, Tommy. That'd be great for marketing. Of course it would. It would be. But I don't think it's going to happen. I mean, I don't know what other candidates would be. I don't know if Mike Dantone will be a candidate. His name keeps coming up for coaching jobs. You know, I'm not in love with that.

No. John Calapari spoke out the other day, said he'd be interested in going back to the NBA. I don't see him leaving Kentucky, though. Yeah. I think one of the... Remember years? Many years ago? I predicted that. I do remember. I do remember that. He was going to run the whole operation. Yes, you did. The whole thing. Yeah, I think we got a couple of headlines out of that for whatever reason. That was a good one. I think that the names that we've heard, Wes Unsel Jr., obviously ties to the organization. Becky Hammond, we've already mentioned her. Sam Cassell, for sure. He's got a great relationship with Bradley Beale.

He was in this organization, and so many people have thought for so long that he's a possibility. And then you do have to start thinking a little bit outside the box in terms of international coaches, college coaches. Look, I mentioned this morning to Chris Miller, I had him on the show, and I felt this way for several years now. I think that Rajan Rondo is going to be a great NBA coach. and I think this could be his last year in the league. If you've watched him play for the Clippers here in the postseason, he's struggling a little bit. You know, as good as he is,

and as good as playoff Rondo typically is, he barely even played over the last several games of the Dallas series and the beginning of this series here. Like, to me, that dude's going to be a head coach and quickly when he retires. so people like him can't be ruled out. But one thing, oh, here's the other thing that I wanted to just say. I think all of these people are going to be looking at this job

and they're going to say, Russell Westbrook, yes or no, uncoaching him. You know, and it's not just whether or not it's difficult to coach him because one of the things we heard from Brooks and everybody is how professional he is, how he is a leader, how he leads through action, and what a pro he is. But it's not that. It's the, I coach a certain way that I believe will work in the postseason, but he doesn't fit that. So there may be people that rule themselves out of this gig because of Russ. It's possible.

There may also be people that look at it and say, I am going to be the way. one that gets him more comfortable, gets a little more structure so that when we get to the postseason, he's a more comfortable player. We have more success. They also obviously have to be convinced that Bradley Beale is going to be here and that the organization's going to be aggressive in going after a third star. So there are a lot of those things as well. Personal view on this job, other than the fact that you have a couple of really good players, including an NBA third-team player, and I think he deserved it,

even though I think you can make the case he's not a top 15 player. I think he was this year, certainly an elite score in Bradley Beale. I think you could actually make the case that you'd have to think long and hard before taking this job because you can get to the postseason. you can win 45 games, and Hachamura might be the third star. And we saw a lot from him that would indicate he's got a chance to be a really good player. But, you know, Russ, yes or no? Beal is he going to stay?

Yes or no? What can you really do with this group? How far can you really go? But then again, if you haven't had a head coaching opportunity in the NBA, you're going to jump at it if you're Sam Cassell or Wes Unsell. junior, you know, so anyway. Okay, let me throw a name out, which I have, it's just connecting dots kind of name. Patrick Ewing.

Yeah, I actually thought about him last night, but I just don't see that, even though he's got the NBA experience, not the head coaching experience. He's a, connecting the dots, Georgetown. Ted, Georgetown, you know, right here in the backyard. And by the way, done a decent job coming off a year in which they shockingly won the Big East tournament. It's not crazy. No, it's not crazy.

It's not crazy. I think you have to consider them. I just think for some, I think one of the thoughts I had on this is that he took that Georgetown job and that's family to him. and he's got to be super comfortable there, even with coach having passed away. You know, you're leaving a place that, you know, really means something to you, really means something to you.

Yeah, but if Ted is in charge of all of it, it'll get the Georgetown seal of approval. Yeah. He won't be leaving bitter people behind if Ted is in charge. engineering the whole thing. Ted being a Georgetown godfather as well. I mean, this is the organization that gave him, you know, the start in coaching. Yeah. Okay. Can I just quickly mention the two games from last night?

Because once again, we're in here on a day following a night of NBA playoff basketball that just was incredible. It's like every single morning I go in, it's like, oh my God, There's another, you know, first time ever or first time since. And last night, the all-time playoff comeback, Atlanta down 26 points. I'm not going to lie to you, I turned it off. I started watching something else. That game was over. Atlanta looked dead in the water.

Philadelphia was basically celebrating the game. This game was over. I mean, it was done. And somehow Atlanta caught fire, came back. I heard something this morning. Actually, Chris Miller told me this on the show this morning, that the 76ers, listen to this, Tommy, in the second half, only two players scored points in an entire half, only two.

Yeah, I heard that. Embedib and Curry, right? Embed and Seth Curry, where the two players, they ended up with 37 and 36 respectively, and they scored all of Philadelphia's 44 second half points. Nobody else finished in double figures. and Trey Young is a magical player to watch. He really is.

Ended up with 39. And for the Sixers, once again, Ben Simmons, you know, I love him, but he's a liability at the end of games because he can't shoot free throws. He was four for 14 from the free throw line. You know, I don't care how tall your point guard is, and he's listed at 611, even though I think he's probably closer to 6'9. You can't be the guy that handles the ball all the time and be four for 14. So that's got to be fixed.

Crazy. I can only imagine, by the way, Tommy, Philly Talk Radio today, sports talk radio. Oh, they are killing everybody on that roster. Everybody. You know, AI was in the house. Dr. Jay was sitting courtside, the whole thing. And they're down now three games to two. And then the game last night, and this happened right before the podcast yesterday,

Kauai Leonard, which there's very conflicting information on the Kauai Leonard injury situation. He was ruled out with the knee injury from last night and potentially the rest of the series. Then it came out from the athletic that he had torn his ACL and was going to be done. but Ramona Shelburne said there's no confirmation on the torn ACL, there will be more tests, and it could be just a knee sprain, and it's possible that he could play again, you know, if they move on. Now, Tommy, last night, I was not expecting them to move on. I just didn't think that they could beat Utah without Kauai. And let me just mention for those that care about this stuff, the point spread, Tommy,

I don't think I've seen this because of one player before. I've seen big jumps, but last night, yesterday morning, Utah was a two and a half point favorite. When the news hit that Kauai was out, they ended up going off as an eight and a half point favorite. Wow. The line moved six points. Now, you see jumps like that,

definitely. Like if you bet the NBA regular season, when you get into one of those situations, like I can remember many times, like the Spurs, who were the first to really start, you know, load management stuff with Tim Duncan and other star players. I can remember sometimes they'd be like an 11-point favorite and then all of a sudden right before tip off. Duncan's down, Janobly's down, et cetera. And now all of a sudden it's a pickum or whatever. You know, so a lot of those things happen. But a playoff game, when you still have Paul George and other good players, six points was a lot.

And they played great last night without Kauai. George had his best game, although he's still sloppy with the ball too much for me. The guy, the player of the game for me, was Reggie Jackson, who I've always loved as a player. He hit every big shot in the fourth quarter. I think he had 12 or 14 points in the fourth quarter, the decisive fourth quarter. He's been outstanding for them. Marcus Morris was great in this game, unconscious shooting the ball as he has been at times throughout. And they got one in Salt Lake City.

They beat the Jazz. They're up three games to two. Now there's this old saying among gamblers that you always bet on the team that loses the key player in the first. game without them, but then forget it after that because they tend to rally. They tend to really be motivated. They want to show that they can do it without the star player. Plus, the other team isn't necessarily as prepared for how you're going to deal with the loss of your best player. But then after that first game, you know, typically gamblers will then back off that team. I don't know.

I guess I can find out what the line is right now on tomorrow night's game. Let's see if they have one yet. Utah's favored in L.A. tomorrow night. So there are two-point favorite to even up the series three games apiece. That clearly assumes that Kauai is out. Well, you know what Kauai has to do then. In game seven,

Willis Reed? He has to come out of the locker room at the last minute and make his first two shots at a game, and then he'll be done. Then they'll win. Yeah, well, the game six is in L.A. Game seven would be back in Salt Lake. So it wouldn't be the exact setup.

But yeah, no, it's, you know, by the way, somebody tried to on Twitter the other night. You had a good comeback to somebody the other night. Oh, the Durant game when you said that, what, Willis Reed had 36 points and 36 rebounds in one game in a playoff game? Yeah, I tried. Just to point out to people that the NBA didn't begin when they were born. Right. That's your move. But there were people the other night suggesting that the James Harden appearance was Willis Reed-esque.

No. I love that, though, because that makes Willis Reed's legacy live forever. He's the gold standard for courage on the athletic field now. Everyone goes back to Willis Reed. So I'm fine with that. Even if it's ridiculous, I'm fine with it. Well, it is an iconic moment that is spanned generations. Yes.

I'm going to ask my boys, actually, if they've ever heard of Willis Reed tonight. I'm going to ask him. Okay. The thing about Hardin the other night is he didn't play six minutes or whatever Willis Reed did. He played 46. By the way, you didn't have a chance to weigh in. And I know the Willis Reed 36 points, 36 rebounds,

a response to this. But, you know, the one thing that I really loved about Durant's performance the other night, because you just don't see this in this day and age, he played all 48 minutes. He never came out of the game. Yes. Absolutely. That was an all-time performance, especially since they had beaten him up the game before. Exactly. He was exhausted, beaten up and looked, I mean, done for. And it was only 48 hours earlier. So that really was, God, it's just been one after another, though, in this postseason. It's really been an incredible postseason.

I know I told you this before, and I've mentioned it on the podcast, but we are at, we're at 16 and counting 40-point-plus performances through, not even through two full rounds. and in the entirety of the playoffs in the bubble, there were 13 of them, and the year before, just 11. And last night, you know, you had 37, you had 39, so you're right there on the edge of 40 again from a couple of players. It's just been amazing. By the way, one more thing about last night. My God, Bogdanovich, the Washington Bogdanovich, the one that they traded her first rounder for in 2017,

and then decided not to re-sign them or couldn't resign them. Oh my God. Can he shoot it for Utah? He's been great throughout the postseason. Last night in the first quarter at one point, he was six for six in the first quarter from behind the arc. He finished with 32 points. He ended up nine of 17. So he went the rest of the way he went three for 11 from behind the arc. But he was on fire. He's a good player. They've got really good players. Donovan Mitchell's. the one that sort of let him down last night as a shooter, as did Ingalls who can really fire it too. All right. A couple things we want to get to next, and that is RG3 is in the news. Also, Ben Standig did an interview with Ron Rivera, and Rivera revealed something about his quarterback position.

More on that right after this word from one of our sponsors. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. If you haven't done that, it doesn't cost you a thing. rate us and review us as well, especially on Apple Podcasts. That'll take you all of like 30 seconds to do. Would really appreciate it. Ben Standings are a good friend. He writes for The Athletic.

He's been on the podcast many times. He had an interview with Ron Rivera. And I'm going to read to you just two to three short paragraphs from Ben's story. The head coach who has final say on personnel matters spoke with the athletic yesterday. morning on a wide range of topics regarding the reigning NFCE champions. When asked which player he's most interested to see when the team arrives in Richmond for the start of training camp July 27th, Rivera didn't choose first round linebacker Jamin Davis or reigning defensive rookie at ear Chase Young. He skipped free agent receiver Curtis Samuel, potential starting right tackle

Sam Cosmi, and a few roster candidates. In fact, Rivera didn't even really land on a person, but he did land on a position, the sport's most important. Quote from Rivera. Well, first and foremost, the most obvious person we're going to look at is going to be our quarterback position, and there's two people that we're going to be watching closely. Closed quote. Then Ben writes after that,

whether you completely buy the starting quarterback competition angle, Rivera has pushed this off season. those in the mix are now clear. Ryan Fitzpatrick and Taylor Heineke. Not included is Kyle Allen, a starter for Rivera and Carolina in Washington before he had a season-ending ankle injury in November. All three participated in Washington's OTAs

in last week's three-day minicamp, but Rivera claimed those practices didn't alter his view. Quote, I've always kind of felt that, let me back up. Quote, I've always kind of felt that way going into it, Rivera said of the Fitzpatrick Heineke showcase. Hmm. Well, I was obviously wrong about that, wasn't I?

Well, yeah, you're wrong, but I'm wrong that, to me, if Kyle's healthy, he might end up winning the number two spot. Interesting. So he values Taylor Heineke more than, it appears, that he's value some more than we thought they would. What it appears is they value Taylor Heineke more than Kyle Allen. Yeah. That would appear to be the case.

But let me point out something. Look, I'm wrong, I'm wrong. It's no big deal. I had no particular knowledge about it. But this guy is a bumper car sometimes, you know, when expressing himself. I agree. He's a bit all over the place sometimes. Sometimes.

Yes, sometimes. This is a guy who two months ago said, basically, here, we don't necessarily have to rely on our quarterback because we have good weapons on our quarterback position. Basically said that the quarterback, one of our positions relied on so heavily in Carolina was the quarterback in terms of our entire offense. It doesn't need to do that here. So the quarterback position is not that important. So he's kind of all over the place.

There's one other quote from him on the Ryan Fitzpatrick Taylor Heineckee thing. Quote, both Ryan and Taylor are two guys that are very vital, very important to us going forward. So we'll be watching both those guys and watching their progress very, very closely. I think it's going to be a very competitive battle. I think both guys want to be the guy. That's going to be important to us as we go forward, closed quote. So why do this? Why tell Kyle Allen you're out?

I don't know. I don't know either. I mean, the guy he traded for, the guy who he said at the end of last year that Kyle Allen could have done the same thing that Alex Smith did. Okay? Now he's not even in the conversation. Not even asked about it, he said it. He wasn't even asked.

He offered that up. He doesn't. Yeah. Something doesn't make sense. Look, one of the things he said, and I'm paraphrasing here last week, was he made a mistake last year and not making it more of a competition, right? And I still think a lot of that was just because he didn't think much of the team going into next year and was fine with trying to find out whether Haskins had anything to him. And so, but he has expressed recently some regret. and almost, you know, for all intents and purposes, given what was available to him at the time,

almost conceded that if there had been a competition, Kyle Allen would have won the competition and been the starting quarterback. And that's deductive reasoning. Why? Because when he did bench Dwayne Haskins, Kyle Allen was the starter. Right. After week four. Now, Kyle Allen was, you know, that UFA status. and $850,000 worth of salary.

And they had to go out and sign Taylor Heineke to a slightly different deal with a little bit more money, but it's still not like big money, and it's not money you couldn't get out of. I don't believe that there's actually a legitimate starting quarterback competition. I 100% believe that he will want everybody, including his own players, to believe that they're in competition. but Ryan Fitzpatrick was acquired, just like Matt Stafford was attempted to be traded for, and anybody else that you believe that they were interested in, Sam Darnold, Derek Carr, you know, the list goes on and on, because they felt like they needed a starting quarterback.

And this was long after Taylor Heineke had gone, you know, toe to toe with Tom Brady. So I guess I am surprised that he in this interview basically dismissed Kyle Allen. And I don't know the answer to why. Right. There could be all kinds of coaching motivations here behind the scenes that we don't know about. I'm not going to speculate what they are. But I mean, I don't think this was just kind of thought. was thrown out comment.

I think he thought it true and had a reason for saying what he said, whatever that is. Yeah. Yeah. You know, perhaps he said it because it's hard to really buy that there would be a three-way starting competition. Yeah, that would be tough. But it's easier to buy that there's a two-man competition for the starting position. I don't know. I don't know.

But I know Kyle Allen I mean unless somebody's pulling Kyle Allen inside and said Don't worry about what you read Yeah Unless that's happening He's got to be a little bit pissed By the way as we've been sitting here

I just want you to know that I did confirm That Tommy Shepard And J. Reiter friends So I can't remember Who told me that I think it was Tommy Shepard at some point during an interview in the last year and a half. But I just couldn't remember.

But I reached out to a couple of people who would know and got back from everybody. Yes, they are friends. So I love what you brought to the show today. Love it. Because I know you got it from somewhere where you wouldn't have said it. And I think it would be really interesting if Jay Wright was the Wizards coach. Really interesting. That would light things up, baby.

I think it would. So the other thing I wanted to talk about is the thing that you emailed to me late last night, which was the story that Andrew Marshan from the New York Post wrote about Robert Griffin the 3rd's audition for both Fox and ESPN as an NFL analyst. Now, for those of you that don't know his current status, he got released by the Baltimore Ravens. He's out there not on any roster. There was some speculation potentially that Philadelphia might sign him to back up Jalen Hertz. They now have both Joe Flacco and Nick Mullins on the roster.

Mullins being the San Francisco quarterback and they got rid of him when they drafted Trey Lance. So nobody really seems to have any interest in Robert Griffin. The third, there's always the possibility you get a bunch of quarterbacks hurt in training camp and Griffin gets another shot. I think, you know, and I remember saying it at the time, when he got that start because Lamar Jackson was hurt against the Steelers on that Wednesday game because of all the COVID and the different scheduling and it was on like in the middle of the day on a Wednesday, which was just weird, I was like, this is his chance, you know, this is it. And he was horrible.

He threw for 33 yards. the game and then got hurt late in the game. Of course he did. But when he, on that Bleacher report draft special, when he took those shots at Kirk Cousins after the Vikings drafted Kellan Mond, I said the next day, this dude can be really good at this. If he's fearless, if he's not afraid to be constructively critical, he could be excellent as an NFL analyst or college football analyst, in addition to, I think he'd be, you know, I think he'd have a career in politics if he wanted to go that route. But there's no doubt that RG3 is bright, that he's got, that he is charismatic. He's a phenomenal communicator. And according to Andrew Marshand,

at the New York Post, he had an all-time audition for both Fox and, and he, and he had an all-time audition. and ESPN. Quote, Robert Griffin the 3rd has emerged as a top target for both ESPN and Fox in football TV free agency. ESPN is upped its offer

after Fox showed heavy interest in Griffin as an NFL and college football analyst. Now both networks are waiting to see whether Griffin will try to play again or retire from the NFL to move into TV. Even if Griffin does decide to play, TV will be

waiting for him when he ultimately retires. Griffin really excelled in his auditions for ESPN and Fox. Sources from both networks say they were blown away by Griffin. Some said Griffin's was among the top tryouts they have ever viewed. I can see that. I agree with you. I can see that as well. I can definitely see it. Yeah. Yeah, I could see that. I could see that. look, he didn't have any qualms about throwing his teammates under the bus when he played. So I don't think he'll have any qualms about criticizing players in the booth. You know, I don't think, I think he'd be good. You're right, he is charismatic.

I think he would have a good understanding of what they want from him. And I think he'd be a natural. Yeah, I mean, Tony Rum was the guy that literally went from audition into the number one spot, you know, on CBS. But here's the thing. Here's the difference. There's a difference. And I don't want to be little RG3 here, because I don't know him that well in this situation. I don't think

RG3 is going to be able to tell you the next play that's coming before it comes. I think you're right. I'm going to guess that you're right. I don't know for sure, though. Romo always was one of these quarterbacks that knew every single thing that was going on in a game.

Obviously, we know from, you know, all the people that have talked about Griffin's years here anyway, he was young and he was, you know, he had all the answers, even though he didn't have many at all. But, you know, in right, that Bleacher Report video of him going after Kirk a little bit, I thought, wow, you know, if he is fearless like that, he's going to be really good at this, because he's a very good communicator. And wouldn't it be funny if he signs on with Fox as a broadcaster in his first game, Sunday, September 12th, 1 p.m., the Minnesota Vikings in Cincinnati against the Bengals. That would have, if he does do that in the upcoming season, they got to give him that game.

Have to. But anyway, I don't know, you know, there's always a chance you get more quarterbacks injured. but, you know, the NFL's pretty much given up on RG3, you know, and I know that he tweets out a lot about opportunities and staying ready and whatever it is. But, you know, there have been too many opportunities here in this offseason for starters, for backups, for systems in which quarterbacks need to be able to be dual threat, and he hasn't apparently even gotten a sniff. So. Yeah, there's nothing wrong with moving on into.

a new career where you can actually have more success than you did in your previous one. Nothing wrong with folded up your tent moving on. I actually think he'd be better as a college football analyst. I really do. But if he worked for Fox, he could do both technically. They have both products. ESPN only has Monday night football, you know, so, right? Yes.

Anyway. You wanted to mention real quickly the Nats. By the way, they've won four in a row. Well, Max Scherzer went on the injured list, but they have won four in a row. And a big series upcoming. Yeah, big upcoming series against the Mets. They're managing, you know, not to fall into the abyss, and you've got to give them credit for that. But before you cut me loose and get rid of me, I just wanted to mention two things briefly.

I wanted to give a shout out to Bruce at top-line countertops. okay we're get we got a new kitchen counter put in in our kitchen and Bruce is a devoted podcast fan of the Kevin Sheen show and his workers showed up here to do the work with two bags of gibbles for me wow gibbles potato chips yes that is those are hardcore listeners Wow. Absolutely. That's a, that, we're appreciative of that. Yes.

And just a reminder, D.C. Grace Benefit concert featuring King's Fall Sunday, July 11th from 2 to 5 p.m. at Caddies on Cordell. Tickets will go on sale soon on the D.C. Grace website. You didn't haggle them down too much on the countertops, did you? Kevin, I couldn't tell you what our counters look like before. they just got replaced. Okay. This is not important stuff to me. No, it isn't.

All right. Have a good weekend, and we will reconvene on Tuesday, Mr. Levero. Okay, boss. All right, see you. Up next, Don Marcus, who wrote for many years for the Baltimore Sun, and Dave Grady, who's written a lot about Maryland basketball and about Len Bias, will join me to talk about the project they're working on. to remember Lend Bias' legacy.

That's next after this word from one of our sponsors. The next interview you're going to hear was recorded yesterday. So when you hear us refer to tomorrow, that actually means today. I couldn't fit in the interview yesterday because the show got long with the Scott Brooks News, etc. But here is my conversation with Dave Grady and Don Marcus about the project they're working on related to Lenn Bias' legacy. All right, I want to bring in Dave Ungrady and also, my friend from way back in the day,

Don Marcus, long time, Baltimore's son, reporter, columnist, etc., covering the Maryland football, basketball beat, and a lot more. And actually, Don, you know, usually we'll run into each other once or twice during the course of the year, but we haven't recently for people who are big fans of yours and it followed you throughout your career. How are you and what are you up to? Well, you wouldn't have run into me anyway because I left the sign.

I know. Back in February of, I beat the pandemic by about a month. And, no, I'm doing great. I'm doing great. And, you know, getting to do this podcast with Dave on Grady on Lenn Bias. And it's been very interesting. It's been tough because of the pandemic. but I think we have some momentum going on it.

And it's been a very interesting project. And I've done some writing, but, you know, just enjoying not having to be out in college park all the time. By the way, before we get to all that you guys are doing with the Lenn bias and you've got a big Zoom thing tomorrow and events coming up, I don't know if you guys saw the news from yesterday, but apparently Wiggins, Aaron Wiggins, didn't even get invited to the NBA camp. I would think that's good news for those of us that want Aaron Wiggins back as a turp next year. Yeah, I think that I'm not surprised because it's pretty competitive just to get invitations.

I feel bad for Aaron that he didn't. Right. But I also think that he's a guy who could stand to gain from a really terrific senior year. you know, others have this year, a guy from the Knicks who was drafted from Dayton, you know, went fifth in the draft. And, you know, I'm not saying that's going to happen to Aaron, but I think it bodes well for Maryland because Aaron said that he's only going to go out if he's a first round pick. So if he's true to his word, he'll be back and Maryland should be loaded. Don Marcus and Dave Ungrady joining us. Dave wrote the book on Len Byas, Born Ready, which, by the way, just recently, as a quick aside,

we're moving in about two months, and we've been starting to sort of get organized in the house, and I took multiple bookshelves and consolidated, and actually basically, we're sort of minimalist in our house. So I started tossing books that I had on the bookshelf that I just didn't think I would ever go to again, and there was Born Ready sitting there. That was a keeper, Dave, just so you know. That was a keeper. Glad to hear. Thank you.

And it's sitting right behind me in my studio. In my studio, I didn't have really anything of note in here, not that books, but you know how everybody, when they do a Zoom shot, you know, video, there's like, it's always a background. So I put, I don't know, I'm looking at it right now, I put about 30 books on the shelf behind me and Born Ready is one of them. All right. Kevin, I hope it's prominent and the first one people can see.

Well, you know, it wasn't a huge thickness book, but it's there with some of the others. All right. We had Dave on the show, I don't know, two months ago now, something like that. You're involved in a project about Len Bias' legacy. There's a big event, a Zoom event tomorrow. Tell everybody about it. The Zoom event is 730 to 9 tomorrow with the University of Maryland Alumni Association. We did one last year about this time, 34 years after Len died, and it was the start.

The reason we did it, and the Alumni Association was so cooperative with it, it was the start of our 34 plus one campaign about this time last year. And if you recall about this time last year that ESPN aired a three-hour, time block of Len bias coverage. They show the Carolina Maryland game from 1984 Jordan versus bias and had an hour after that talking about Len's career and what could have been and and parts of his legacy focused on basketball. This campaign focuses on using Len's legacy to ultimately Kevin as a teaching tool to help teenagers and young adults learn the importance and significance of effective decision-making. For the 34 plus one campaign includes this podcast series with Octagon Entertainment, which

is part of, which is connected with Octicon, the mega entertainment and sports representation company. They represent Steph Curry, Yannis, and Michael Phelps and others in a lot of high-profile entertainers. you've got an entertainment division, they're partnering with us to produce the podcast series. Ultimately, we want to do a documentary, a video documentary on a part of Lenz legacy that we feel is most significant, which is how his death affected criminal justice reform, specifically sentencing guidelines for people using, people convicted of small crimes related to drugs have been put in jail for 15, 20, 25 years. That's the goal with the documentary, the podcast we want to use to create interest and see where we're going to go with the documentary, but that's what we're talking about with the documentary.

Also, a book update. Ben and I ultimately will work on that together. Hopefully we'll have this out by the end of the year, but we're working some things with that based on what happens with the podcast. And we're working with the Decision Education Foundation. Kevin, this is important. There's a group called the Decision Education Foundation that actually developed curriculums and teaching tools how to make effective decisions. decisions. Len bias made a bad decision. That's what this is primarily about and look what happened. It's a major bad, significant, life-changing bad decision. And we're going to, our last segment of

the series is going to be a discussion about how you can make effective decisions. You know, I've had various people on the on the shows over the years and talking about bias on, you know, significant anniversary dates, you know, in June, whether it was 10 years, 15 years, 20 years, et cetera, after his death. And the legacy of the mandatory minimums that were created on drug crimes are always a big part of the story. And I think when I'm curious, you know, from both of you, you know, there's always this what if, you know, what if he had lived, you know, the basketball stuff.

Would Maryland basketball had changed significantly? Would Lefty have still been there another five, six, seven years? Who knows before retiring? I mean, lefty went on to coach a lot longer than that. coached, you know, for 15, 16, 17 years, whatever it was beyond that. And, you know, what would the Celtics have been like, you know, with Len Bias? Would he have been the next bird? Would he, would the Celtics have dropped off as much?

On the drug thing, I'm curious as to what both of you think. Because shortly, you know, within Len B, after Len Bias dropped dead of a drug overdose. So we had the Don Rogers situation in Cleveland, the Cleveland safety that also died from a drug-related death. And then we had, you know, it wasn't drug-related. A few years later, of course, Reggie Lewis also passed away. Different circumstances, of course. But would it have just been the next guy or the next drug issue?

Were we heading in that direction with Ron and Nancy Reagan in 1986 anyway? If I could start down, then I'd like to maybe bring in talk about the basketball part or whatever you'd like, but I'd like to establish some kind of a difference in how we perceive this. Yes, what if is a, I think, is a small part of Len's legacy because he didn't have that. He didn't play. He didn't play in the NBA. It's nice to have conjecture and compare him what would have happened to Michael Jordan, or would they have had that rivalry that Magic and Larry Bird had?

I focus more on what now. He's dead. What happened? What now? What happened then? And the drug issue is a big part of that. Jay Billis said in our interview with him, he said, that's the story that's never really been told. It has been told, but it has not been told in depth enough.

We focus on what kind of player he could have been or how Maryland was affected, the athletics, how his teammates were affected, which were all going to cover, how his friends and family were affected, how national drug laws were affected. But that is such a big part because that affected society as a whole. That made it mainstream. It placed so many people in prison, especially primarily young black men. And this past week, we're now doing our segueing to our interviews on that part of the legacy. We've built up through stages here. We talked to two people, or one person who was incarcerated, a woman named Dorothy Gaines, who was a nurse. and she developed a friendship with a man who was involved with drugs.

She had nothing to do with the drug part of his life. She lived in Alabama. Alabama didn't bring charges, but the feds brought charges for whatever reason. And all indications are she had nothing to do with anything drug-related. She ended up getting at least a 15, 20-year prison sentence. She served six. It was commuted by President Clinton in 2001. When she went into prison, her family just dissolved.

She left a nine-year-old boy who cried and jumped on her on the judge's lap in the court when they announced the sentence. And now her family is still, to this day, struggling to recover from this. That's one example of thousands of lives that were affected by Lent's death that we're going to do a large part on. Sure, it's a large part of his legacy. either others. So what now? That's what happened. How do we as a society recover from that? How can we make better decisions in our lives? And the other part, you know, the basketball part, I think maybe Don could have more insight into that. Yeah, I want to get to the basketball thing in a moment, but how much do you address like the First Step Act from a few years ago that reduced those

mandatory minimums and promoted, you know, the release of many of these people who had been imprisoned, longer periods of time than the crime actually sort of dictated. Because we did see this, you know, this legacy of Len Bias's death reformed just what, three or four years ago? I forget the actual year that that happened. Well, Kevin, it goes back a little deeper than that. And this is why his story is so important even today. And we often are asked, why do we still tell his story? Why do we keep bringing it up? Because people need to know this. In 20, I think it was 20, 2009 during the Obama administration or 2010, first we had the Fair Sentencing Act, which one of the things it did is reduce the disparity. If you had one gram of crack cocaine and you had 100 grams of powder cocaine, that's 100 to 1 disparity. You got the same mandatory minimum sentence of five years. They reduced that to 18 to 1. So if you had 1 gram of crack, 18 grams of powder, it's the same mandatory minimum. They also gave it. judges previously judges could did not have any discretion to change the sentence they had to

abide by the law the fair sentencing act allowed judges to have some discretionary uh decision making no like i want to reduce that because this is too severe and also they were they reduced sentences retroactively to people who were in prison the fairs the um uh first step back first step back tried to try to take a few more steps than that and it's really that it doesn't have the teeth that the Fair Sentencing Act has done yet. There's still questions about if it's really going to do what it was supposed to do. We need a little more time to see how that plays out. So it's a continuous process, and there are groups that are still trying to fight for that. All right. Let's go to Len bias and have the basketball discussion, which, you know, to be fair,

a lot of people listening to this podcast, especially the Maryland people, but college basketball fans in general, we have these conversations all the time, those of us of a certain age. certainly, you know, the what if. What if, Don, he had lived? What if he had survived that night and lived? How much would it have changed from a basketball standpoint? Maryland, the Celtics, him, you know, what kind of player would he have become? I'm sure you've thought about this and had these conversations over the years.

What are your thoughts on that? Let me go back to 1986, 85, 86 season. That was my first year at the sun covering Maryland. basketball. I heard of Len bias. I didn't, you know, I knew he was a great player in the ACC. I just finished covering the Big East and primarily St. John's and covered Chris Mullen's entire career. And at that point, Chris Mullen was the best basketball player I had covered, you know, on a regular basis. And I showed up in College Park and I was just, I was just floored by the talent this guy had. I said, you know, Chris Mullen is a nice player.

Obviously, he was a Hall of Famer. This guy was at a different level. And I had covered Jordan a bit. I covered the Olympics in 84. I'd covered that my first final four was 1982. I had gotten to know Michael a little bit over those years. Had spent some time down in Chapel Hill. So I knew who he was being compared to.

And as I wrote on the 20th anniversary of his death, I spoke to Jan Volk. who was the GM of the Celtics at the time, and we spoke to recently for the podcast, posed a question, you know, would he have been Michael Jordan's rival? And obviously from his perspective, of course, but everybody else agreed.

Jay Billis was quoted in that piece. And going back to, you know, Mike Shoshchewski's line about the two best players that he ever coached against at Duke were Michael Jordan and, and Lenn bias. And, you know, Ralph Samson wasn't even in that conversation. And he was, I think, two or three time all-ACC player.

Now, this guy, I mean, if he had gone to the Celtics, and that was the other thing, how often does the number two pick in the team in the draft go to the defending world champions? He would have impacted the NBA. He wouldn't have had the pressure that Michael had to rebuild and save that friend. you know, take the leadership as a rookie or second year player with the Bulls because Bird was still there,

Mikhail was still there, Parrish was still there, Dennis Johnson, Danny Aange, go down the list. He would have been able to evolve as a superstar. And he would have been that player because, I mean, he came out of college with a better offensive game, a more well-rounded offensive game than Michael Jordan. It's hard to, you know, for those who haven't never saw him play, just, just look at, you know, go on YouTube and look at this guy. He had the most picturesque jump shot and he was six foot eight. I said he was a six foot eight David Thompson.

I mean, that's how beautiful his jump shot was. That's how athletic he was. And, and, you know, one of the things that Jan Volk said is he played with a little meanness. They like that. They liked the attitude he played. He would have been a perfect Celtic. And, you know, he would have started in the role of the sixth man. And that's a big thing in Boston.

And then he would have evolved. like John Havlicek did and others into the star of the team. And he would have changed the landscape of the NBA because not only would the Detroit Pistons had a tougher road, the bad boys, but who knows where the Bulls would have been, who knows where Jordan would have been if the Boston Celtics were still the Boston Celtics as opposed to not only losing Lund bias, but a few years later losing, you know, having the tragic death of Reggie Lewis. And they never recovered.

You know, it took them 20 years to recover. So it's clearly he would have been one of the best players of his generation. And he would have been the rival that Jordan never had. That's what they talk about it. Bird had magic and Michael did not have really a rival. Kobe was too young and other guys were too old. Yeah, it's so funny because we've all had these conversations with so many different people. And I've done it on the air and you guys have done it in writing over the years.

I've always made this comparison with Len, or his lefty would say Leonard. I think he was more Dominique Wilkins than he was Michael Jordan. And I remember for the many years that I had the good fortune of working in the same space as Coach Thompson, who did the show following my show for eight years. And we talked all the time in our bullpen at the station about a lot of things. And I remember him coming to me and saying, that's the comp. It's not Michael. You know, Dominique was the comp.

First of all, you know, Michael was a two-guard. You know, Len Bias was a forward. Now, Leonard was a better shooter as a college players, you said. He had one of the prettiest jump shots in the history of the college game, and he shot it at such a height that it was unblockable. But he was not the ball handler that Jordan was. And I thought he would be more of sort of the human. and highlight real that

Neek was. But people short shrift, I think, Dominique Wilkins, and what a great all-around player he was. I mean, he had 47 against the Celtics in a seventh and deciding game. So I think that he would have been one of the all-time NBA greats. But I always thought his comp was more Wilkins, not Jordan.

What do you guys think about that? Well, I think, you know, I think the comparison to Wilkins is also, I mean, he was the human highlight film, but he was built more like Carl Malone, maybe not as big, but, but, you know, because of his size, there is really no comp. You know, there was nobody who played at that size at that point who could shoot like that, you know, who could be getting the air like that. You know, Dominic Wilkins was from what I remember, more, you know, he was more wiry, not a, not a, not.

not a, not a, not a big, muscular guy. You know, and I don't think, you know, I think you're right about Jordan. They play different positions. But, but I think just the, the rivalry in the sense that, you know, Byrd and Magic really didn't play the same position either. You know, Byrd was a, was it was a two and the three or a three and a four or whatever, but magic was the point guard. So, you know, it's just a matter of the team he went to at that point in time.

You know, I think, you know, as, and as you said, you just put these guys up there as the greatest of their generation and of all time. And he was in that realm. You know, if I could. Yeah, go to that. And Don made a reference to David Thompson. Don and I are old enough to remember watching a lot of David Thompson. And I saw, I thought he was the most fascinating basketball player to watch of the late 70, mid to late 70s. in college especially.

His professional career was pretty good, but he got hurt and didn't pan out as a lot of thought. And he had some drug problems as well. I look at Len as sort of a combination of a David Thompson and Julia Serving. You had David Thompson's athleticism. You had Julia Serving's creativity, offensive creativity. Neither of them might do I recall having as good a shot as Len did. but the impact they had as offensive-minded players.

And David Thompson was only 6'4. But he had, from what I recall, a little bit of a better jumping ability than at Lent. Lent had a 44-inch vertical league. Yeah, Thompson's was 40. I think he was 48. I recall hearing something like that as well. So Thompson didn't have the body that bias had, the height of bias had. No, true.

Or I don't think he had the intensity. that bias at. So I look at Thompson and Irving, then you have bias sort of a combination of those two. I'm just old enough too to remember David Thompson. I think David Thompson for me in my lifetime is the greatest college basketball player I've ever watched. But it's funny when I go back and watch like YouTube videos or games. They've got the 74 ACC final as it was called by Jim Thacker and Billy Packer. You know, that whole game's available on YouTube. And it's interesting to watch, you know, and match up your memory with what actually

happened. Thompson was brilliant. There's no doubt. He was not a great ball handler either. And back then, there wasn't a lot of defense played. I think Don said this when talking about Volk and what he said. Len had a mean streak, a competitive mean streak, that was just unmistakable. and was Jordanesque.

And I think that's one of the reasons he would have been ultimately, you know, combined with the talent and all-time great. I remember some of those moments, his last home game against Virginia and Olden Polynes. And he took a ball that Polonies threw up there and threw it into the fifth row, screaming, you know, give me that shit as loud as he could. And he threw it. And I was right there sort of in that arena that day. I'll never forget that.

And here's the one thing that kills me about Bias's college career. They never got past the Sweet 16. As a freshman, they got to the round of 32 because he hit a buzzer-beater against UT Chattanooga as a freshman. And then obviously he had the coming out party in the ACC tournament as a sophomore, but they lost to an Illinois team that I think they were better then. The killer game for me is when they lost to Villanova, who would go on and win the national championship in 85 that year on that incredible magical run. Maryland was a better team than Villanova.

Bias had, and I think this is true. I think it was the worst game of his career, and they still only lost by a point. I think he ended up like four for 17 from the floor, you know, didn't even reach double figures as a scorer, and they still lost by like a point to, you know, Ed Pinkney. and Dwayne McLean and Harold Presley and Gary McLean and that Villanova team that went on to win the national championship. It just sucks that he never got to profile and get the exposure he would have had as a college player in the final four.

You know, their final loss against UNLV he was brilliant in, but they blew like an eight-point second half lead. And, you know, a lot of people will say, well, you know, that's lefty. You know, Lefty, they always had talent and always came up short. I love Lefty, and I think sometimes he's underrated as a coach and overrated as a recruiter, but that's beyond the point. I wish he had had the tournament success that some of the greatest players in history had. I think he would be thought of and ranked much higher as an all-time great college player

if he had had the tournament success. You talk about when the loss of all-time. of an 85. Let's talk a little bit more about when they lost to UNLV. And you said he had a pretty strong game there. I recently watched this game and I was actually surprised at how poorly he played in the first half. He was missing shots. He wasn't defending very well. Something seemed wrong. He was just off in the first half. But the second half was on fire. Yeah. And he took that team, he took that team, he tried to bring that team back on his own in the last four or five minutes. I think he scored the last 10 or 12 points.

So you saw sort of what he could do in those last four or five minutes of that game, how dominant a player he could be if he wanted to be. And that's unfortunate. I think Don can even attest to this at 86 team. He just didn't have the supporting cast or players to really take that team really any further than that, correct, Don? Yeah, no, that team actually started, I think, 0.5 or 0.6. in the ACC.

Right. And really had to climb back. I mean, one of the greatest lines that lefty ever delivered to me was right before they played the Virginia game that you had referenced, the Olden Polynes game. I talked to Dick Schultz, who was the AD of Virginia and who was the head of the basketball committee for the NCAA. And I said, does Maryland have to, because they were under 500. They finished six and eight. That's right. in the ACC. They were five and eight. I said, do they have to beat Virginia to get, you know, to really,

you know, get themselves even in position to, I don't even know if they talked about the bubble in those days. I don't think we did. No, I remember they did. And I remember they needed that and they probably needed that quarterfinal game in the ACC tournament where they beat Carolina again. But lefties line was, he said, and I'll try to do my best lefties, I asked him if, you know, I said, Dick Schultz said that you guys have to win. And he said, who's Dick Schultz? What does he know? And I said, well, he's the, he's the head of the committee.

He said, well, if we don't get in, it'll be the biggest rip-offs this Louisiana purchase. Yeah. You know, but speaking to that talent, you know, he has some good players on that team. You know, Keith Gatlin was a good college player. Yes, he was. Derek Lewis. Great shop locker.

He was a sophomore and was a very, you know, serviceable, big man at 6-7-195 he's still the all-time leading shot blocker John Johnson who was a good freshman he was a rotation player you know speedy Jones they had some good players you know and I think it goes back to what you said about lefty you know lefty has some great unfortunately for lefty his best teams were when there was only one of course you know one team from the ACC going to the NCAA tournament and it caused his best teams corresponded with the with the david thompson's you talked about thompson Tommy burleson was the star that eight of that of that game 70 38 yeah 38 points

you know and monty towel was the point guard you know so that corresponded they went one year where nc state couldn't because they were on probation so those are the those those those were the teams that if they had gone to the NCAA tournament with McMillan and Elmore and Lucas and Mo Howard and then Brad Davis and those players that that's when they could have won a national championship for lefty. Oh yeah no doubt look I think one of the biggest Maryland basketball and Washington's football team have been my one one a put him in any order you want for my entire life in terms of rooting interest. And I think that nothing was a bigger miss for college basketball than not having lefty make it to one final four. And what a show that would have been

in the week leading up to it, et cetera. And you're right. I mean, the 74 team, it was the second best team in the country, and they didn't get to go to the tournament. The 73 team that lost NC State in the ACC finals, but State was on probation, did make it to the elite eight and lost of Providence. And then the three guard lineup with, you know, Lucas, Howard, and Brad Davis made it to the elite eight after McMillan and Elmore graduated. And they got blown out by Louisville. He, you know, he was close. And then the team that you mentioned, I think you're right. And I think Dave was indicating it. There were some good players on that team, but Adrian Branch was gone. And they had a great one-two punch with the two of them, you know,

the two previous years. And I really thought that their opportunity, in those two years against Illinois and Villanova to get to potentially a final four. Now, the Illinois game was played at Rupp. They would have had to play Kentucky in their own building in an elite eight game had they won that. But they lost two sweet 16 games by, I think, a combined two points. And it would have been fun to see, would have been fun to see bias in Lefty together in the final four. Kevin, if I could add something to that 86 team that just, sort of a perspective. As you guys were talking about that, it made me think a little bit more about

comparing Jordan Tobias, even in college. Here, one thing we should remember, and I don't know if a lot of people are aware of in 1986, Len was suspended for the team. Right. They went to that party in NC State. With Washburn, yeah. No, well, Washburn, I don't know, he never says he was there. I don't, there was no indication that. Okay. But that's the story, right, is that they went out with Washburn and all those guys. Yeah, they were, he was in, they were at an NC State party, and it was John Johnson, Jeff Baxter, and Lenin, and maybe another Maryland player, but those are the ones who confirmed they were there.

And they were at a, with something called a freak mama concert, a party where they were, you know, or, and this is indicative of the time, they were judging how women were dancing, that kind of stuff. Silly, silly college stuff, right? Then he gets suspended, John Johnson gets, the three of them get suspended. Would that have happened at North Carolina with Michael Jordan on the team? I don't think so. It's a different kind of program.

My mindset in the program. Len had a – I'm not aware of stories about Michael Jordan off the court being a gregarious, fun-loving, silly guy. Len Byest was that kind of a guy. He'd like to have a lot of fun. He'd like to be silly. He'd like to play practical jokes. He'd like to do goofy things.

That perhaps was a reflection on, you know, he's a senior leader on that team. Did that team have that kind of same mentality? And that's somewhat, I think, contributed to his recklessness, which is clear, how he sort of lived his life a little bit more recklessly right before the draft. He was parting a little more. Clearly he was using cocaine, not to the extent where he was addicted to it. So maybe a difference in personality between Jordan and bias. How would that have changed? Would bias have changed going into the NBA to Celtics, perhaps?

You know, he was only 22. A lot of athletes that age act that way. And he just happened to get caught up a little more. But there are things that little difference there between the two. Well, it's funny because as you're talking, first of all, I remember that game. Keith Gatlin once told the story about how in Raleigh at Reynolds at halftime they're down. and bias has, you know, sweat dripping off his forehead, blood coming through his uniform, and lefty screamed at the rest of the team and said, look at Leonard, he's a warrior. And they went out in the second half and they ended up winning that game. And then he got suspended after that night and they lost, I think the next game was Clemson and not a good Clemson team.

And if my memory serves me correctly, they lost that next game. And that really, you know, they had been playing well. And then the Carolina game came, you know, a couple of a week or two later, whatever it was in Chapel Hill. But when you were saying that, it's interesting. So bias, more fun-loving. Also, by the way, clearly more, clearly a risk-taker. But Jordan's vice was gambling, not drugs. You know, Jordan had the same on-the-edge risk-taking personality.

But it was with gambling, which is also just a number. another bad road, but one that couldn't kill him necessarily. But yeah, your point about how Carolina would have handled a similar incident, of course, they would have had more depth to probably go to Clemson and win anyway, because Clemson could never beat Dean to begin with. But yeah, an interesting point. Whenever we get into these conversations, it's just a flood of memory start coming back, And I think the two biggest things with Maryland basketball history for me is I wish Lefty had made a final four.

And I think, you know, if Moses Malone had just been there one year, I think he probably would have. If the NCAA didn't create the Maryland rule, which expanded the NCAA tournament and it had happened earlier, I think he certainly would have with that 74 team. And then it would have been great to see bias in a little big of a, you know, a bigger, moment, you know, because back then in the 80s and in those runs of final fours and championship games, you know, they were capable of getting there. You know, all four of his years, certainly his last three years, they were capable of making a run and getting there. But they, you know, they lost three games in the Sweet 16, arguably against three teams they were better

then. No, I think going back, if you look at it, and it goes back to what if, you know, what if they had had you know had had had beaten Villanova what you know what if what you know and and you're right I think that lefties legacy he would not have had to wait three tries to get in into the into the Hall of Fame uh though once it once he once he made it it was worth the way because he probably gave the best except acceptance speech yes he did history of of the Ney Smith Hall of Fame you know and and you know you look at you look at bias and and it's amazing today where you still see people wearing his jersey. Right.

For a guy who never played a game in the NBA, it just shows you, you know, how people revere him to this day, you know, as a player, you know, as one of the greats of college basketball and certainly, you know, the most talented player ever to play at Maryland. You know, I think you can honestly say that, you know, there's a debate about whether he was the greatest player

and, you know, people, in the Juan Dixon camp and the John Lucas camp and the Tom McMillan camp. But, you know, he was definitely, you know, the talent level was, was off the charts. And there is, there is sort of that, that, that wondering what would have happened, you know, had all those things you talked about in terms of Maryland basketball. But, you know, they did. You know, they, and they finally did get to, you know, when, when Gary took them in, in 2001, I took my, I took my, I, I took my, I took my family down in 2002 to Atlanta, and my wife and my sons were sitting in the upper deck, and my wife asked, how come all these people are crying? All these old, old people are crying.

And I said, because it's been a long road to get there. And that's, you know, that was what, you know, that was part of the, I wrote the 100 Things book on Maryland that's part of a series on all these college teams. and my dedication were to my two sons who grew up hating Duke and to my wife who watched grown men cry. So that just shows you the passion the Maryland basketball fans had, and it was finally, you know, they came to a positive ending in 2002

at the Georgia zone. I love that. I love because many times I've tried to explain to people, whether it was on the show or in a conversation, the incredible passionate fan base that Maryland basketball has and how long it's been there. You know, I think in this town, obviously the Skins fan base and the football team has always been number one and by a wide margin. But, you know, I've contended over the years that the second most passionate fan base is the Maryland basketball fan base. I think the Caps fan base, which is smaller, but the incredibly passionate is close.

But I can tell you that it wasn't the championship game for me. It was when they beat Stanford to go to the first Final Four, and they had finally made it to the Final Four after all of those years of thinking that you're good enough to be in the Final Four and being year in and year out crushed with soul-crushing losses at the end of seasons. And that Stanford, that final minute countdown was as emotional as I have ever been personally as a sports fan because we had waited so long just to get to the final four. I think the national championship game, it wasn't that it was anti-climactic at all to going to

the first final four, but it was also such a weird game, you know, overall. It wasn't a well-played game necessarily. It was a little bit of an awkward championship game. But that first, that Stanford Elite Eight game, I'll never forget sort of how I felt in the moment. And by the way, to, I think maybe Dave said this, or maybe it was you, Don, I think one of my boys asked me this a few years ago, and they didn't put it in the way, you know, that most people would put it sort of, you know, is he out, is his legacy outsized because he died at such a young age? And sometimes through tragedy and early death, we tend to exaggerate one's legacy. And my son asked me that, not exactly that way. And I said, no. I said, everything you've heard about him in terms of the player he was is true. And it's all available, by the way, right there for you on YouTube.

And they've all, you know, my boys have all watched it. And they're of that group of, come on, don't tell me about Jordan. I mean, watch LeBron and Kobe. You know, they're of that generation. And yet, you know, some of the dunks he had, you know, some of the dunks against Navy in the tournament game on on the lobs that Gatlin would throw almost near half court. He had a dunk in the Pepperdine game before the UNLV game that's on YouTube that literally his head was, you know, a full, you know, half a foot to a foot above the rim.

It was, he was really every bit of what, you know, people have talked about him, even though he's no longer with us. It's true. Kevin, you're talking about a big part of his legacy, which I think must. most people are going to relate to. And even this generation today, they're gonna focus on the part of him as a basketball player. But from my perspective, and I don't know if Don agrees with me,

but as we've been working on this podcast, more, he's seeing more about the significance of his legacy related to sentencing guidelines and federal drug laws. That is a part of the legacy that we want to, it's the hardest part because it's not positive, It represents and symbolizes struggle and unfair consequence to a lot of people's lives. But that is the most significant part of his legacy.

And I'm hoping that all we're doing here, although we don't want to forget how great a basketball player he was, how fun-loving he was as a person, and what we've missed by him not being here, seeing him develop as a basketball player and as a person and how he was going to relate to people and make them feel happy and enrich their lives. But we've got it. We can't forget that tough part of it. And I would like to add something. And this came up recently within the last week.

The forward for the book is written by a gentleman named Stanley Plumley, who was the Maryland Poet Laureate for many years. At the time when the book came out, he was the head of the creative writing department at the University of Maryland. He tells a wonderful story of how the night. of the basketball team banquet, Len's senior year, there was a poet, Pulitzer Prize winning poet, a black lady called Gwendolyn Brooks, the first black artist to, the first black poet to win, or persons, I understand, in America, to win the Pulitzer Prize for art in 1950. And the creative

art writing department was presenting her with an award that same night. As a surprise, Len showed up, presented her with a bouquet of flowers. And here's this Pulitzer Prize winning poet, who at that point must have been in her 70s or 80s, just sees Len walk in. And as Stanley writes and describes it, her eyes just lit up on fire. It just blew her away. And a gentleman who was also working in the creative department or writing department at Maryland at the time, he recently wrote a book that included a poem of that, which in New York Times published this past New York Times Magazine published two weeks ago. So it's out there. Wow.

It's hard to get away from things Len does that you don't know about. And he was an artist. He was an accomplished illustrator. But he also had this personality where he'd love to sort of make people's lives brighter and help them enjoy certain moments with his presence. It wasn't about him. It was about them. So this is a part that we want to keep sharing about his legacy.

It's the good and the bad. And the bad part is tough for some people. That's a great story one I've never heard. I appreciate that. All right, let's wrap it up. Tell everybody about tomorrow night and then what's upcoming here over the next few months. Yeah, we've got the Zoom call.

We'll feature Derek Lewis and John Johnson. They've been nice enough to commit to be part of the Zoom call. It's hosted by the Howard County chapter and the Black Alumni chapter from the University of Maryland. And again, it's the second consecutive year. They've done this with us. We're going to talk to give Derek and John a platform to really say as much as they want about Len because they can never say enough. John hasn't been out front a lot with this.

So this is a really good thing, I think, to people to share with him. We're also going to give people who attend a platform to share their stories about Len. Let's celebrate his greatness as a basketball player. What are your fond memories? What are your most fun moments thinking about land? And we'll give updates on the podcast, which we've got about, last time I talked to you, Kevin, we had completed about a dozen interviews. We're up to about, we're over 30 now.

We've got about 15 or 20 more to do. It's a lot. If we're going to do this right, there's a lot of people to talk to. And again, we hope to, we plan to debut in September, and it'll be ideally a weekly series for about two months. Well, let's make a date for you guys to come back before that launches and we'll talk about it then. Don, it's great to hear your voice. I hope you're doing well.

Dave, it's good to catch up again. And I wish you guys the best with this. Kevin, thank you so much as always. All right, that's it for the day. Thanks to everybody who joined the show today, Tommy and Don and Dave. Back tomorrow.