The Kevin Sheehan Show - Jayden Practices + Pep Hamilton

Episode Date: October 26, 2024

Kevin in on a Saturday with a few quick thoughts on Jayden Daniels practicing and being listed as questionable for the game against the Bears tomorrow. And then it was Pep Hamilton, long-time NFL and College offensive guru who jumped on and shared some great stories from his incredible 25-year coaching career.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Cheon Show. Here's Kevin. So I'm here on Saturday, October 26th with a podcast, an interview with somebody that I did not anticipate having earlier in the week. But I was introduced to this gentleman, and we ended up having a conversation on Wednesday. My intent was to make it part of Wednesday's podcast.

But it went very well. I think it did. He was incredibly generous with his time. And so I decided to just turn it into one standalone interview show, which is what you're going to hear shortly. Now, before we get to who the guest is in the conversation that I had with him, since I am in here early on a Saturday morning and there were lots of dramatic things, I guess, that happened after I recorded the podcast. yesterday. I want to touch on two of those things. One, what a World Series game one that was last night. That was, by the way, a great game before it became an all-time memorable game. I mean, the Stanton two-run Homer in the sixth was ridiculous. This guy has been on fire. Postseason, career-wise, but especially this postseason. And then we get to the bottom of the 10th, two outs. The Yankees up three to two, and Freddie Freeman walks to the plate and hammers one out of the park. First ever Grand Slam walkoff to win a World Series game. Dodgers manager Dave Roberts said,

quote, might be the greatest baseball moment I've ever witnessed, and I've witnessed some great ones. Closed quote. It was reminiscent a bit of Kirk Gibson's game one walkoff back in 1988. against the A's. He was hobbling to the plate, as most of you remember. Freddie Freeman last night had a badly sprained right ankle as well, and he hammered that first pitch, 92 mile per hour fastball. Once it left his bat, he raised it high in the air. Game over. Wow, what a game. The second thing I wanted to touch on is, of course, Jaden Daniels. He practiced yesterday. There was a lot of drama with him in the bubble before. practice because he wasn't one of the three quarterbacks on the field when it was open to the media

to see what was going on. Now, Dan Quinn said that was by design that he was in the bubble so that he could get additional core muscle work before taking the field. He is listed as questionable for tomorrow. Daniels was asked if he expects to play and he said, quote, I want to play, but it's not my decision. I feel good, closed quote. This isn't that hard, and yet it's interesting. So the not hard part is if he can't play tomorrow like Jaden Daniels has played the first six games, meaning he can't play at 100 percent, he's not 100 percent healthy, whatever that means he shouldn't play. And I don't think they would play him if he's not at that level where he can play exactly the way he's played the first six games of the year. If he is fine, healthy,

ready to play like Jaden Daniels, of course he should play. That's the simple part. If he's not 100%, he doesn't play. If he is 100%, he does play. I personally, and I know some of you feel differently. You're like, no, we should hold them out. I mean, protect the franchise. What's the point? The point is, like, if he's 100% healthy, he plays. Like, I don't want any kind of point proven about how they're going to protect the franchise. If he's ready to be what he was in the first six games and the first drive last week, the first play from scrimmage last week, let's go. Now, the interesting part, and maybe this is our first real experience, with how Adam Peters and Dan Quinn plan to handle these situations.

But if he doesn't play tomorrow, man, they did an excellent job of keeping alive the possibility of him playing. You know, I'm not sure that it creates the greatest competitive advantage, but it doesn't hurt to keep the bears guessing and keeping them in prep mode for two quarterbacks, even if the two quarterbacks are similar in the way they play, Mariotta and Jaden. It doesn't hurt. I would love to think that this is the way they are going to operate. Somewhat, you know, patriots like, Belichick like, this organization for years telegraphed every move. And so far this week, you know, the indications are that this group will do the opposite.

I have no idea what will happen tomorrow, whether he plays or not. My guess right now, and it's just a guess, and it is just a slight, slight lean, is that he won't play tomorrow. But man, I hope he's healthy and does play. Can't wait for the game regardless. All right, let's get to this interview that I want you to hear. The guest is Pep Hamilton. Pep Hamilton, a long-time offensive guru, offensive coordinator, quarterback's coach, in so many different places in the NFL, so many different places in college.

And I was introduced to Pep with the intent, again, to put him on Wednesday's show by my good friend Harley at Window Nation, the presenting sponsor of this podcast. Call them at 86690 Nation or head to Window Nation.com if you need new windows. but Harley is truly a friend to a lot of big-time names in sports. He's friends with Pepp Hamilton. He said to me a while back, have you ever had Pep on the show? And I'm like, I don't think I have, actually. He's like, you should have him on the show.

He is an excellent guest with so many stories and quite the life in coaching. So that's what you're going to hear on the show. And here's how it started. Joining me right now, and it's a pleasure to have a. is Pepp Hamilton. Coach has been a part of so many NFL teams, college teams. He was the head coach and GM of the D.C. Defenders in the inaugural season of the XFL, which was shut down by COVID in 2020.

But for NFL fans, you know Coach Hamilton is the guy who was the offensive coordinator for the Colts during that three-year stretch where Andrew Luck and the Colts were going to playoff games. They played in the AFC.F. title game in 2014, which was the famous, by the way, deflategate game. And he had coached Andrew Luck at Stanford and was part of David Shaw's staff there. He was a big part of Justin Herbert's rookie year in 2020 as the quarterback's coach with the Chargers. Two years ago, he was in Houston before, before D'Amico Ryan's and C.J. Stroud arrived. So PEP Hamilton is with us. Coach, thanks so much for doing

this. Update everybody on what you're doing right now. Well, first off, thanks for the kind introduction. I've had the opportunity to really just grow and explore the football space ever since my days at Howard, where I first started coaching. I wanted to put that out there that, you know, I've spent more than half my life, really based out of the DMV. So I am a not only a D.C. Defenders fan, but I'm

also a Commander's fan. I'm a WISN fan. Mystics fan. All the above. Even the Nationals. My wife and I, we have a home right by the Eastern Market. And every offseason, every football off season, we would go back and

we would walk from our home at the Eastern Market down to the national stadiums, national stadium and catch a game from time to time. But yeah, but the answer your question. And your son, by the way, is going to College Park this next year. My wife is a graduate of Duval High School in Lanham, in that area, the Lanham area. And I grew up in Charlotte, North Carolina personally, but my son is committed to play

for Coach Loxley and his staff at the University of Maryland. And he's also a quarterback. and an athlete, but he will enroll early in January and be a part of an amazing 2025 class that Coach Loxley and the staff has worked tirelessly to put in place. And the 2025 class is actually top 25 recruiting class. Yeah, it is. Right, coincidentally featured and led by Malik Washington, the heralded young quarterback that's out of Archbishop Spalding High School.

So exciting times, a lot of ties to the DMV. But right now, Kevin, I work for NFL Network. I'm an analyst. And I primarily work a show that's called NFL Game Day Live. And I enjoy the show, I think, is three hours of just constant highlights and football and talking through the things that the fans are watching just so that they have a different perspective and a better understanding. But the most important part of this show, NFL Game Day Live, that shows on NFL Network

on Sundays, is I give a chance to work this show and do this show from home. And that's important to me because I, right, I don't want to miss my son's games, nor do I want to miss my high school age daughter's activities, you know, because I've been in the submarine for the past 25 years coaching international. National Football League. That's what it feels like. But I also have my own talk show here in Houston. I live in Houston, Texas, currently. And it's called Texas Pep Talk. It's a pregame show that covers the Houston, Texas, and their next opponent. Well, let's talk some football, especially your life in this sport. I think you said that you've been in the submarine for 25 years. I mean,

you've had one hell of a run, a quarter century. In so many days, different situations and around so many interesting coaches and figures in the sport, Harbaugh, and Herm Edwards, and the list goes on and on. What was the most influential experience you've had in coaching? Wow, that's a good question. I must say that the experience I had when I first started coaching at Howard University was really the foundation for how I approach the coaching industry. So what was unique about my experience at Howard as a coach and as a player is the head coach at Howard at the time with a guy by the name of Steve Wilson.

He's a mentor of mine. He played the guy to play for the Cowboys. Yeah. There you go. Because Wilson played 10 years in the national football league, but Kevin. What was, I guess, unique about his experience was he played three years for the Cowboys in which he played a wide receiver, played with Roger Stalbath. And then when Dan Reeves ended up leading the Cowboys and becoming the head coach of the Broncos back in the early 80s whenever it was. DB.

All right. He brought, there you go. He brought Steve Wilson with him to the Broncos. And Coach Wilson went on to play for seven years. at defensive backs for the Broncos. Yeah. All right. Now, how did that impact me?

Well, I came into Howard in 1992 as a quarterback, high school quarterback out of Charlotte, North Carolina. And Coach Wilson was the head coach, offensive coordinator, and the quarterback coach. Well, we spent just as much time watching the Denver Broncos' deep. defensive cut up and film, then we did anything else. All right? We watch more NFL film than we watch college film, all right? And he was a football junkie. He walked around with a big duffel bag of VHS tape.

That just goes to show you how long it was. Yeah. Right? Uh-huh. But I want to just make note of this. And I know you're a Terp and you're a Maryland guy. And, you know, I'm the biggest Terps fan in the state of Texas. All right. But at that time, Howard had Jay Walker quarterback, all right, who went on to get drafted by the Patriots in 1993.

All right. I played after Jay, okay, all right, did not get drafted, didn't play in the National Football League, went on to coach in the National Football League, as you well know, as you mentioned. but then after me, the first quarterback that I coached was Ted White, all right, who was a record-breaking quarterback at Howard as well, who went on to become, all right, he went on to make the roster for the Kansas City Chief in 1999. All right, so when you do that, man, but then the quarterback after Ted, who I had the opportunity to coach as well, was a guy by the name of Roy Anderson, who was the defensive backs, the safeties coach for the Philadelphia Eagles. it's not just a coincidence that you had a group of guys that were all in that quarterback

room and quarterback space at Howard in the early 90s when Coach Wilson was leading the program who all went on in some capacity to work at the highest level in the sport. Well, because I am a terp, and I know that you probably know this, you know, when Bobby Ross was in College Park in the 80s and then, you know, the coaches that followed, Maryland had a run of quarterbacks that ended up becoming NFL quarterbacks. It was pretty impressive. I mean, it started with Boomer and Frank, Boomer Seison, Frank Reich, Stan Gelbaugh was an NFL quarterback. Neal O'Donnell was an NFL quarterback. Scott Zolak was an NFL quarterback. Scott Milanovich, I think, ended up in the NFL as well.

They had a stretch where people were referring to Maryland as quarterback you. Do you remember that? Right. I do. I do remember that. And I was in the Jones Hill Fieldhouse recently, and they have, all right, a great mural near their football meeting rooms that state just exactly what you said about how Maryland was quarterback you during that period, that time period. You know who was, and he's one of my all-time favorite coaches from this area, and Lox coached with him when he came back to Coach Maryland. And he was a big part of Bobby Ross's staff in the 80s when they had a lot of those quarterbacks, and that was Ralph Friesian.

And I'm curious if your paths ever crossed. Absolutely. So, Coach Lox and I, we go way back. We go way back to when I first started coaching in 1997, as you mentioned. I, you know, what happens is during the summer, the University of Maryland would host all of the top recruits from the DMV, and they would allow, and they still do, Coach Locke still allows the local high school coaches and the regional college coaches to all come back and partake, all right, in that camp and evaluation of some of the top prospects. the DMB. And so I was, you know, one of those young coaches that had the opportunity to go back and work the camp over the year. It started with Ron Vanderlinden. Yep. Am I saying the name right? No, you're right. Vanderlinden, yeah. Right. And then a few

years later, when Coach Friesen became the head coach, I had the opportunity to do just that. And I actually, for probably a month or two, I think it was 2001, Coach Lott's was a able to facilitate having me come back over and work kind of as an analyst of sorts. But also in 2001, I worked, I was an intern in the personnel department for the Baltimore Raven. Okay. So that was a long yes to your question about being exposed to Ralph Friedan and his, I mean, he's a great football mind.

All right. He is truly, all right, one of the. the few coaches that was able to coach all 11 on offense. You know, he could coach the old line, and coached quarterback. He was coaching everybody on the offense, and the rest was history. I mean, look at the production that they had during that time period. And I actually coached another Maryland great that played quarterback that led the team. I want to say, was it the Sugar Bowl, with Sean Hill was the quarterback?

Yeah, Sean, well, was the Orange Bowl. They lost the Florida in the Orange Bowl. Yeah, that was Ralph's first year. Yeah. There you go. It was the Orange Ball. I had the opportunity to coach, Sean, when I was the quarterback's coach at the San Francisco 49ers in 2006. Yeah. Yeah, he was a transfer. I mean, this is long before Portal and NIL. But he was a transfer from a junior college in Kansas, I think it was. And he had a hell of a year. That was 2001 Ralph's first year. They actually started off 7 and 0. They were ranked like 10th in the the country, and then they finally lost a game to Florida State. But yeah, they won the ACC and then lost to Rex Grossman, who you probably crossed paths with in Chicago. And the Grossman and Steve Spurrier and the fun and gun, they got, they could not

handle the fun and gun in the Orange Bowl. They gave up a lot of points and lost that game. So there you go. Yep, I coached. I did coach Sexy Rexy at the Bears. I was the quarterback's coached at the Bears from 2007, 8, 9. For three years, 2007, 2008, 2009. I had the opportunity to coach Rex Grossman. And then my last year in Chicago, our quarterback was Jay Cutler. It was Cutler, yes. So you were there when he got traded to Chicago.

That's right. Was that the year that, no. Was that the year that they made it to the NFC championship game and lost at home to Green Bay? or is that the next year? That must have been the next year. The year that I coached, Jay was his first year with the Bears. And yeah, we threw just as many completions to the other team than we did.

I was just going to ask you, what was it like coaching him? Because, you know, by the way, like Rex, there was no fear of throwing the ball into traffic, right? That's exactly right. they felt so good about and confident about their arm strength that there were times when they tried to throw the ball through defenders, and that didn't work out. They didn't always work out the way that they expected it to work out. So, you know, Rex was here for a couple of years with the Shanahan's. And there was like this, you know, this saying about Rex.

It was like he could throw three picks and he'd get, he'd walk into the huddle and say, F it, we're going deep again. Because he just did not think that the next one, and that's the mindset. I mean, you've been around a lot of quarterbacks, but the guys that throw picks and don't care about them, that's probably the right attitude, right? You know what?

I think there's a part of being able to put the previous play behind you and still have a positive outlook, you know, regardless of, the results for the previous or the prior play. Yeah. But there is still, all right, just a requirement from that position that you're not careless and reckless with the football. I'll give you a very short commander's story back when they were called the other name. The Redskins, yeah.

We're okay with saying it here on this show. I just want to make sure I can feel too. No, no, no. There's, we are fine because you know what? they were the Redskins, and these players did play for the Redskins. So we're not wiping out any history on this show. Well, there you go. It was 1999.

No, it was 2000. It was 2000. In the 2000, going into the 2000 season, I was an intern with the Redskins. The head coach was Marty Schottnheimer. That was 2001. That was 2001. There you go. 2001 it was.

Well, great. So this is the best part of the story, okay? Jimmy Ray was the officer coordinator. He's a mentor of mine as well. Brian Shonheimer was quarterback as coach, and I was an intern. I was, you know, sitting in the quarterback meetings. All right. Okay.

But this is the story. Jeff George. I want to say the quarterback room, we had Jeff George, maybe Tony Banks, and was it Trent Green? No, it was Kent Graham. Kent Graham. There you go. Okay, but I just remember the very first day of either mini-camp, training camp, one of the camps, and the very first fast play that we had called, all right, in practice was just a quick game concept.

We called the Gun Trips Right, 300 Jet Y-Stick X Omaha, okay? A Y-stick route is just a five-yard-out route. you know, as a play caller, as a coach, you categorize certain plays, all right, and you train the quarterback to understand the intent of the play. Well, why stick the intentions of that play was to just get a five-yard completion? We call it a completion play, okay? It's a good drive starter. Get the ball out of your hands.

So it's trips right. The receiver that's all the way outside to the right is running a protection release goal. He's taking an outside release regardless of the cost. coverage look, and he's just running as fast as he can down the sideline to clear everything out for that wide tight end. The tight end is the Y, who's running a five-yard-out route so we can get a simple completion. Well, Jeff George dropped back. Yeah.

And the stick route, the tight end, was sitting there basically waving his hands. He wasn't interested. I'm open. Yeah. All right. Jeff George brought back, waved off the tight end. and waited for that outside receiver that was running the protection release goal to get about 50 yards down the field and threw a 60-yard bomb to the receiver that was running the goal route,

and it was incomplete as ever, and the coaches just went ballistic like, what are you doing? The tight ends wide open, and Jeff was like, the object of the game is to score more points than the other team. We're not scoring if we're throwing five-yard-out-out-out. Oh, my God. That could not have gone over well with Marty Schottenheimer. Oh, but it was classic. That's such a great story because, you know, the year before,

I did not realize that you were with that particular. Let me just start with this. Marty Schottenheimer, to me, is the biggest mistake Dan Snyder ever made football-wise. That team won eight of its final. 11 games with Tony Banks and Kent Graham at quarterback, and the arrow was pointed up. We would have won playoff games, divisions, and a lot of games with Marty had he stayed on, but Dan wasn't having any fun, so they moved on from Marty. But, you know, the year before in 2000 was the first year that, the second year that Snyder owned the team, but they had won the division in 99

with Brad Johnson. Well, Snyder, when he took over, he wanted Jeff George. George. Vinnie Serrato was on my show last week, and he told the story about going to get Jeff George. They were at the league meetings, and he said, I need you to go find, oh, my God, I'm blanking on the quarterback agent's names. Lee Steinberg. Zinberg. Yeah. Vinny said, Dan told him, go out to the pool. Lee Steinberg's there. I want to get Jeff George. And Vinny basically said, why would you want to do that?

And so he basically told him that he couldn't find him. And he went and told Norv Turner and Norv said, Jeff George will never play for me. Well, they signed Jeff George because Snyder wanted Jeff George. And Serato said that it was, you know, horrendous from the jump, basically. You know, locker room killer, the whole thing. And a couple of the other stories I've heard from that time is one of the real issues was Jeff would just wave off the play that would come in.

and he just decided to throw it to the guy going deep. And that when Norve got fired at the end of the 2000 season and they had Terry Ribisky take over for him, that Jeff George basically said, don't even send plays in. I'll draw it up in the huddle. And no one, it was a disaster. By the way, Pep, Brad Johnson had thrown for 4,000 yards in 1999,

and they had won 10 games. and they would have had a good season in 2000, but the George thing kind of ruined all of that. But that's a funny story. Did you like Marty? I did. You know, as a young coach, I appreciated the structure,

and I don't want to call it the micromanagement of the franchise, but you focus more so on the result than you do the process. and when I say that, I'm talking, you know, just using a regression methodology, you know, Marty, the way he had done it, and the way that he continued to do it, it was bearing the fruit. It was, you know, his teams were winning. So, of course, I greatly appreciated having the opportunity to be exposed to how Marty did things. That was an interesting season for sure. All right. So, I mean, this is actually more fun than talking.

to you about football because you've had so many experiences and, you know, just the Howard Steve Wilson experience. So actually, and I wrote this down, you were the offensive coordinator for the cults during the guy that you got to know really well at Stanford. You were the offensive coordinator for David Shaw's really good Stanford teams with Andrew Luck. You reunited with luck in 20, in 2013, which would have been his second year. And you guys won a lot of games. And you got to the postseason. You got to the AFC title game in 2014.

And that is the famous deflategate game. So I'm curious as to what your memories, it was not a good experience score-wise. New England won big and went on to the Super Bowl that year. but what do you remember about that AFC title game? And do you remember anything about the footballs being deflated? I remember a whole lot about that game. First and foremost, they would have beat us with Nerf footballs that night. It didn't matter that the ball was, I guess, deflated during the pregame.

But just coincidentally, it was a Turk that intercepted the past, that really started the snowball that we now know is the flake gate. It was DeQuil Jackson. Oh, yeah, DeQuil, of course. Yeah, he lives in the area, actually. He's still back here. Yeah, he was at Howard's homecoming this past weekend. Yeah.

Hopefully I didn't call him out, didn't put him on us, because he wasn't at Maryland's homecoming. He was a hell of a player. I mean, what a player. Yeah, tough, smart, everything you wanted in a linebacker, and he was a leader of men. But that game now, and it's just another DMV tie, and it's such a small world when you think about just the football space. So that AFC championship game in 2014, you know, we felt good about the game playing going into the game. The owner of the coach had often mentioned that, hey, we got to, you know, run the table at home, split on the road.

But there are certain games you got to win so that we could avoid having to go to Gillette Stadium in late January. Right. It's dark, gloomy, wet. It's all the above. You know, it's a tough environment to go play in in the playoffs. But I just remember they got those. ball first. We held them the three and out. And they punt it to us. Okay. The wind was going all over the place. In the pregame, our punt returner, he had a hard time filling the ball. Our punt returner

was another DMV guy who played at Dunbar High School in D.C. Cribs. Guy by the name of Josh Cribs. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. That's right. Yeah, Josh Cribs. and, well, we must have, the opening punt return, well, the first punt return opportunity that we had in that game. And we gave Tom Brady the ball back on like, but the 15, 20 yard line. And, of course, they scored. And now we're down 7-0. Really could never get it going. But it was a rough night for us.

Tough environment to play in. We felt like our team was ascending, like we were built the right. lightweight, and we could build on the success that we had in that 2014 season, the following season we could build on that success. But the NFL is top. It's a league of match-up. Any given Sunday, you can go out and play a team that you may not match up against them up front, and they can beat you.

Regardless of the record, you can get beat on any given Sunday. I'll give you a game that I know has to be, you know, up there in terms of memorable games that you coached in. Because, by the way, the next season was the season, Andrew Luck got hurt for the first time. And then, you know, it was a couple years later that he retired. But that first year that you guys went to the postseason, your first year is the offensive coordinator, that wild card game against the Chiefs. And I just looked it up because I'm like, this was, you guys were dead. down a lot. You were down 38 to 10 in the third quarter and came back and won that game 45 to 44. That's unbelievable. Give me a minute on that. Well, it was truly a game of ebbs and

flows, all right? But I remember the very first third down of the second half, half. We were down 21 points. I called, we were on the right hash, we were on our own 35-yard line. I called gun trip, trips left loose, scat right hockey. So it was a trips left formation. Scat was a

protection. It was a five-man protection. We're free releasing Donald Brown out the back field to run hockey half-back option route. He has a three-way goal. He can break in, he can break out, or he could sit. Right. All right. well, Andrew drops back.

Their defensive coordinator is a guy that I worked with at the Jets in 2003 and 2004. Bob Dodg. Oh, you're going. Sutton. Sutton. There you go. Yeah. It used to be the head coach at Army. Right.

Well, well, you know, I don't know if he gets right, but his call was better than my call. We threw another pick six. The back went and broke out. Their wheel linebacker, it was like he knew it was coming. He jumped the route. He running back in for a touchdown. Andrew runs off the field, and he was apologetic to his teammates, apologizing to me. I felt even worse than he felt because it wasn't his fault.

It was the call. You know, it was obviously a bad play call and a predictable play call. but we went down 28 points. Okay. Andrew sat beside me on the bench. We had our iPads out, and I just looked over to him and I said, hey, I said, think back to 2010

on that Saturday night when we played at USC in the Coliseum and pretty much the same thing happened. Late in that game, we had a pick six. I called Spider-left Y Banana, John Gruden went on to make it, you know, kind of a trending call. He talked with Andrew about that specific play call on one of the shows that he had leading up to the draft. But anyway, you know, same thing happened in 2010 against USC, where he threw a pick six. We're down a whole bunch of points, but there were still time on the clock,

and we needed to focus, gather ourselves, and go back out and put our team in a position to win the game. and I said we, it wasn't we, it was Andrew. Andrew was like, he's like Wolverine from X-Men. He mutates, all right, when things get really challenging and tough. That's when you see, all right, Andrew, the assassin, and not Andrew the librarian, you know. But that playoff game against the Chief, after that game, you know, normally I have a turnoff switch, like,

Probably no other coach in all of football in which after a game, once I get in my car, I leave every thought about the game for that moment. I leave it in the stadium. I go home and I just try as much as I can to be dad, go take the kids for a bike ride, go play catching the yard with Jackson, whatever it is. But that game, I just remember telling my dad, my dad flew in from Charlotte and he sat, he was in the stands screaming at the top of his lungs during that game as well. I said to my dad, I said, Dad, I need you to drive home.

You know, I was a home game in Hindi. I said, I need you to drive home today. I have a headache, you know. That's something else. Look, I just pulled up the box score. Luck through for 443, most of that in the second half when you guys scored 35 points after falling down 28. He threw three picks, four touchdowns.

T.Y. Hilton, do you remember his day? It was a big day. That's all I remember. What was it said? 13 catches 224 yards and two touchdowns. Wow. Yeah. That was an Alex Smith chief's team, and I am assuming that that was, was that Andy Reed?

No. Was it Andy Reed? That was Andy Reed. Yeah. It was first year? It was an Alex Smith? Yes. It was the second year, right?

Alex Smith's Chief Team. Yep. And if I'm correct, either they drafted my homes in the next draft. No, it was a couple drafts later. A couple drafts later. Okay. Yeah.

But yes. No, it was definitely Alex Smith. And because I coached Alex in 2006 when I was a quarterback's coach at the 49ers, and it was Alex's second year in the league. You know what's interesting? So that was, I just pulled it up. That was Andy Reid's first year. year in Kansas City. He had been let go of Philadelphia the year before. And you know, Andy Reed

blowing that lead in the playoffs in 2013 and losing that game. People said about Andy Reed, he's a really nice coach. He's a good offensive mind, good quarterbacks guy, but this guy's never going to win, you know, big. He just loses too often in big games and the playoffs. And what changed that? Patrick Mahomes changed that. And he's now on a run. like, you know, a Belichick kind of a run. And, you know, he's a Locke Hall of Famer. But when you and your team came back from 38 to 10 down in a playoff game in the second half to win 45-44, Andy Reid was a long, long way away from being a Hall of Fame coach.

Yeah, but, Kevin, in all fairness, to all the coaches, all right, around the world, what could Andy Reid have done? Of course, of course. Against the Colts in 2013, that would have changed the outcome of the game. Just like you just said, he got packed my home, and when you watch,

it's no different than watching Jane Daniels right now. You can't tell me that the play caller, when you send in the play, you call, okay, give me gun, gun double right, drop back 10 yards, scramble around, and then throw a point,

throughout late, all right, on the left, you know, down the middle, you know. That's not the play call, all right? Yeah. Those players are just elite playmakers slash problem solvers. And, I mean, that's what the game and the position has evolved to, all right? It is a lot less restrictive for the quarterback position. Back when I first started coaching in the National Football League, the quarterbacks were programmed like robots.

It was like you had a code and you, you know, you program your quarterback, hey, when I call his play, this is what I want you to do. And this is how it should start and this is how it should end. Well, that's not the case now. You know, in today's football,

on any given play, the quarterback may make the throw from the pocket, he may make the throw outside the pocket. He may go around his back and give an AI crossover and then throw a no look pack. the game has changed. Yeah.

Look, the game has gotten to the point where if you have one of those few guys at the most important position on the planet, quarterback, you're going to do just fine, but it's really hard to find one of those guys. Look, you had one of those guys in Andrew Luck, right? He was truly elite. Right. I had Justin Herbert as well. He's elite. Right. I had Alex Smith. I would say that he was upper tier.

I had Jay Cutler, who had elite talent. Right. You know. And so over the years, you know, you have guys that are special players. But the plan for the quarterback is just as important as a quarterback. All right? Because think about this. Hayton Manning won his last Super Bowl with the Broncos, all right, with the fuse neck.

And he really couldn't throw the ball. more than 40 yards down the field. Right. But he had total mastery in control over his offense, and there was no defense that he would face that he hadn't seen. He was able to open their mail, you know. And so I think that, and the other thing that I would say the novice is probably not aware of, Kevin, is in the National Football League, last year,

there was 68 different starting quarterbacks. That was an all-time record. That's not a good trend. I had the opportunity to have a conversation with several NFL executives at the owners meetings back in March. And that was the question that they were asking you, like, Coach, what are your thoughts about all these quarterbacks playing and getting hurt? Well, it's just what we just talked about.

The quarterbacks today, they try and solve a lot of problems with their legs. and so they're exposed to more hits, all right? Well, that is, that makes it tough, all right, to say the least, for the protection, the offensive line, and really tough for our teams to say, okay, well, we're going to invest in a guy that's going, all right, be exposed more often than not. You know, it was 68 different starting quarterbacks last season, Kevin. The year before that, it was 64. That's crazy.

We're trending in the wrong direction. Yeah. Right? I have. And we just saw our beloved young phenom in Jayden Daniels get knocked out of a game this past week, all right, in which they went on to win the game. But, you know, it was early in the game. And the hit that he was hurt on wasn't as, it was. It wasn't a big hit like some of the other hits that he had taken prior to that hit, you know?

We got to talk about him, but I have one more question about your career. So I always was a big David Shaw fan. I just felt like Stanford's teams under David Shaw were so disciplined, so hard-nosed, physical, pro-style, really, from an offensive standpoint. there wasn't a lot of the, you know, there wasn't a lot of spread. There wasn't a lot of college, you know, stuff. And yet, at the same time, I always felt like he was too conservative at times as a coach. And I thought that Stanford's results, the results were incredible. But I always thought that team was just so buttoned up and so well coached the whole thing.

And yet I would say, there it is. it's fourth and three, and you're at the USC 35-yard line, and they're punting. You know what I mean? And I'd be like, don't do that. Go for it. What was it like to coach on those teams with him? Well, I'll start by saying that at Stanford, they handle volumes of strategy and information.

Right. And as a coach, we were able to really implement so many varieties of schemes and strategies. And it never overwhelmed our guys. Now, the reality is this. We never had the skill players that Oregon had, that USC had, or even at UCLA, the teams that were in the PAC-12. at that time. But what we could do is we were able to do is we were able to recruit the best offense alignment in the country,

all right, the best tight ends in the country, and the best quarterbacks in the country. And so we presented a different match-up issue for the defenses that we faced in our conference specifically because we had multiple tight-ins, playing the phone, move. It's Coach Lotz was a battle of Gettysburg. But when you had to face Oregon and USC in those teams, they were spread teams. And so a byproduct of how tough in the identity of your team is for any program, any football program, college, NFL is what you practice

against during the offseason and during training camp. If you practice against a spread offense that's always in 11 personnel, which is one tight end, one back, and three receivers, or 10 personnel where you don't have any tight ins on the field? Well, defensively, you have fewer linebackers and more DBs on the field,

and you're just rushing the pass most of the time. But when you played against us, against our Stanford team, and ultimately against the coach teams when I was the coordinator and the Michigan team, when I was a coordinator at Michigan, all right, it was a whole different

a requirement as far as how you play defense and how you had to fit gaps. Right. And so I said all that to say that it started with Coach Harbaugh, all right? I went to Stanford 2010, Coach Harbaugh was the head coach. We, and our staff, we had a heck of a staff at that time. On that staff, it was myself, Rick Roman, Big Fangio, David Shaw, of course. Derek Mason, who went on to be the head coach, a Vanderbilt.

You know, we have some guys, right? You know, we have some coaches that that have some skins on the wall, right? And I'm sure I'm forgetting about some guys that were really good coaches. But, you know, we had a really good coaching staff. But going into it, I knew that it was a situation in which Coach Harbaugh was looking to get back into the NFL. As a matter of fact, he presented. you know, the opportunity to me as, hey, come in, all right, work with my quarterbacks here, Stanford, you know,

help us out, you know, with the offense, with a passing game, specifically. And then the next year, I expect to have an opportunity to go back and coach or to go coach in the NFL. And that's exactly what happened, all right? The only thing that didn't happen was I didn't go with him to the 49ers because I had already been a coach on the staff at the 49ers in previous years, but specifically when Coach Harbaugh left,

Andrew Luck came by my office and he said, hey, coach, how you doing? Just kind of wanted to get your thoughts. What are your plans? And I said to Andrew, I said, well, what are your plan? He said, I'm staying because he could have came out that year after his red shirt sophomore year, junior year, had been the first clicking the draft, you know?

Well, he said, I'm staying. all right he said coach i'm staying i said andrew well if you stand i'm staying i'm saying and uh the rest is history coach shaw ended up becoming the head coach he gave me the opportunity to uh to stay on stay on the staff and work as the office coordinator and quarterback coach and uh and i felt like we had a chance to win a national championship and that was before there were playoffs and our 2010 stanford offense 10 of the 11 players on that office on that offense, all right, played in the National Football League, and we had three all-pros. Andrew Luck, sorry, four.

Andrew Luck, David DeCastro, Doug Baldwin, and Zach Ertz. I had seven tight ends from that group that went on to play in the NFL. Wow. You know, I think what I always loved about those teams is what you kind of described, which is, you know, with Oregon and USC and the spread, offenses of the day. Stanford was old school and for the reasons you described,

you know, you didn't recruit those, you know, the speed on the outside or the speed defensively at the skill position spots, and yet you, you know, you guys just, you just beat the crap out of some of those teams up front.

It was always fun to watch. All right. So, what do you think of Jayton Day? Yeah, please. Kevin, let me say this so before we move on. Yeah. Now, Andrew drafted number one overall, 2011 and 12.

Because RG3 came here next. Yeah. There you go, 2012. All right, by the way, I coached RG3 at the Cleveland Brown. He lived in Houston as well. We're still close. We still keep in touch, right? All right.

Yeah. You know, and he's more of a piece of work now than he was then. Well, that seems hard. That's a whole other segment. Yeah, we'll save that one for the next time. But go ahead. But what I was going to say, but what I was going to say is this. Yeah.

With all the success that we had at Stanford with Andrew Love, okay, my first year at Stanford, I was charged with the responsibility of recruiting, all right, the DMV. My very first recruit was a quarterback somewhat unherald. Kevin Hogan, Gonzaga. Gonzaga. I'm from Gonzaga, college high school, right down the street from my house on Capitol to Hill. And Kevin Hogan is the all-time winning his quarterback in Stanford football history.

Wow. Plunkett. Yeah. That's including John L.A. Wow. I did not know that. But it makes sense because, I mean, the years that he was quarterbacking, Stanford was like a top 10 top 15 team every year.

As a red shirt freshman Kevin. Yeah. All right. Kevin Hogan led us to the Pac-12 championship in which we beat New Zealand to win the Pac-12 championship and the Rose Bowl,

and we beat Wisconsin in the Rose Bowl Kevin Hogan's Reds Serb freshman year. Wow. Did you coach McCaffrey or was that afterwards? No, I did not coach. Christian McCaffrey. But I did coach Dylan McCaffrey, the younger brother who went on to play quarterback. He played quarterback for us at Michigan. And I also drafted not Luke McCaffrey. There's a Max McAfree who played receiver at Duke. We drafted him to play for the D.C.

Defenders in the XFL in 2020. So I'm close with the McCaffrey family. I was part of the recruitment of Christian, but I was gone before Christian. time. Got it. Got it. Because, you know, Luke is, is place for Washington. They drafted him this year. All right. This is, you're such, you've got such a great memory and you're a great storyteller, which is why this is a lot of fun for me and hopefully, and I know, for everybody listening. Well, let's take a quick break and then let's get to the reason that I actually called you to have you on the show. And that is to talk about Jaden Daniels, Cliff Kingsbury, and Washington's team this year, and we'll start to do that right after these words from a few of our sponsors.

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We continue with Pep Hamilton. This has been fun so far. But the reason I called you was to talk about Jaden Daniels. But before we get to him and Kingsbury and the offense, because I know you've been watching, where did you have Jaden Daniels ranked? In fact, where did you have the quarterbacks prior to the April draft? Caleb, Jaden, Michael Penix, Jr., McCarthy, Bo Nix, et cetera.

What was your order of quarterbacks prior to the draft in April? Great. Well, I had Caleb at the top. You did, okay. Of my board. And part of it was the D.C. bias. I offered Caleb a scholarship in 2017 or 18. maybe when he was a freshman at Gonzaga.

And I saw him play in person in 20, probably 18. It was Friday night. Gonzaga was playing against McNamara, and I saw him throw a go ball, had to be 60 yards in the air, to Bobby Ingram's son. I think it's Dean Ingram on that Friday night. And I remember calling back to Ann Arbor and telling Jim Harbaugh,

that, hey, I know it's early, but there is a ninth grader that's down here in D.C. that we really need to give a lot of attention to. And Caleb went on to have a heck of a college career, and he's doing pretty good thus far in his career in the national football. Did you guys offer him? Did Michigan offer him as a ninth grader? We offered Caleb as a ninth grader. Wow. Okay. Yep. Now, during that same time period in which I was recruiting in high school,

quarterbacks for the University of Michigan. There was a skinny kid that was playing quarterback out in Southern California who was on our board, who I had to evaluate by the name of Dayton Daniels, who was one of the elite guys as well. And at that time, you know, I felt like he was going to be a good player, but did I feel like he was, all right, somebody who we should, you know, really. really pursue and put at the top of our quarterback board at that time, I did not. And boy, was I wrong, you know.

And I've been wrong before because when I was coaching at Stanford, the year that we took Kevin Hogan, we had three quarterbacks that we were evaluating and we were planning to take two, and we had them all come to our quarterback camp in Stanford. What an odd man out, we took two or the three. The guy that we didn't take was Johnny Mandel. That was a mistake. Look, it's not the easiest thing recruiting or drafting, so don't worry about it.

In the NFL draft, if you hit on one out of four, it's a pretty, or one out of three, it's a pretty good hit rate. So anyway, so by the way, he went to Arizona State, obviously, and played for a guy that you coached with Herm Edwards when you were with the Jets. That's right. That's right. And, in, okay, he went to Arizona State, played good. The football as a freshman, okay? I mean, play really good football. And I'm of the belief that you can't teach experience. One of the things that separate Jaden from the other young quarterbacks that are playing as rookies is the number of reps, the time on task that he's had. Jayton Daniels and Bo Nix had more pass attempts in college than any of the other quarterbacks that were in the draft.

And so who's surprised that these guys are able to go out and function as young quarterbacks, you know? And I do think it's still a bit premature to say that they've arrived. I know that Jayden's been very productive and he's fun to watch. And my wife and her sisters took her father, who's been a Redskins fan forever. Ella Strada took him to see the game that they played, I want to say, against the Browns. Jayden just went bananas, right? He had an unbelievable game. And she called and was like, this is one of the best football players that I've ever seen.

And my wife's been around football for a long time. And so he's made an impression on our commanders' fan base. and his skill set and his poise and what they're doing with them, right, is really it hadn't happened before. Not at the rate that he's going out and putting these numbers up. Like he is throwing the ball from the pocket. He's extending plays and he'll making great throws down field. And when he takes off and run, he's one of the fastest people on the field.

All right. And so he's been special that. way. But I had Caleb at the top. I had Jayden as the next guy. And then I was a little higher on Michael Pennix than I was some of the other guys, you know. And I've known Drake May's family since I was a high school kid in Charlotte. We're from the same hometown. And I think Drake has a high ceiling as well. But I felt like Caleb and Jason were the class of the draft. and they're both having success, respectively, you know? All right, so you talked about some of the things that you've loved watching already,

you know, the throwing from the pocket, the extending the plays, using his, you know, athleticism, et cetera. Is there anything about what you've seen so far this year or just in knowing the player that concerns you? Unfortunately, Kevin, I am concerned. that in his attempts to extend plays and ultimately manage broken plays and bad plays, that he is exposing himself to too many hits at times, and the hits have a compounding effect,

if that makes sense. Like, you know, it's unfortunate that in today's NFL, that, you know, the quarterback position is a position in which now we're calling plays in which we anticipate that the quarterback is going to get hit. Like, we're calling running plays with the quarterback. Yeah. And that is, that's different. That's very different than the way that you approach offensive football in the NFL 10, 15, 20 years ago. And my challenge, you know, my challenge to that approach would be, let's look at, let's use a regression methodology. I mentioned this before in which you look at what the end game is.

You know, you want to win a Super Bowl. And when we look at what success that the quarterback position has looked like in recent years, it's been at Mahom and how he approaches and plays the game. Well, I don't know that there's any one else that's ever played the game that has really had the uncanty spatial awareness and the ability to throw from multiple platforms and improvise and make plays like Pat Mahon. But the NFL has always been a copycat league,

and now that is, in a sense, what teams are looking for. They're looking for a playmaker, a creator, at the quarterback position. But, you know, Pat Mahom is a generational talent, you know. In 100 plus years of the national football league, let's go back and really evaluate, you know, how the quarterback position has been played

and what examples have provided franchises, what models have provided. franchises with sustained success. And I would argue that it really haven't been the style of offense in which you relied so heavily on your quarterback running the football. All right? Yeah. Can it be done?

It can be done. But there's a reason that it hadn't been done as often. as you would think when you look back over the years and look at, you know, the quarterbacks that have been what we call now dual threats, but they've been mobile quarterbacks. Right. Yeah. This is such an interesting topic because really for us in 2012, when they drafted RG3 and Kyle and Mike, you know, went and visited and spent time with Chris Salt at, Nevada, and they, you know, they went to a pistol formation, which had never really been done in the NFL. They, I mean, Cam Newton had run some, you know, several read option style plays the

year before, but most of that was short yardage in Red Zone. And they did it because Robert wasn't anywhere near ready to play quarterback from the pocket. I don't know if he ever became proficient at that. And they realized that. And they had great success with that. So we've been watching it in the NFL now for 12 years, right? These dual threat quarterbacks. I mean, you know, most recently Lamar Jackson, although my God, is he throwing the ball from the pocket well? And, you know, look at Josh Allen and what they do with him in Buffalo, Jalen Hertz, et cetera. I think when you said designed runs, it's something that I talked about actually on this week's show. There are, as you know, you're the coach. There are the designed runs, the actual play.

that are called for the quarterback to run the football. You know, in the old days, it was just a naked boot and quarterback draw. That was always part of, you know, the quarterback runs. But in recent years, and it kind of started with Cam, I think more than anybody else, you see quarterback counter, you see quarterback power, you see quarterback sweep, where they're really a running back. You know, we've seen it with Jalen Hertz. We see it with Josh Allen.

We've seen it with Jaden this year. They've got a bunch of, you know, kind of quarterback counter stuff. But then there's the option stuff. And we're not talking about scrambling and playing off platform and playing off schedule. That's always been a part of the NFL going back to Stauback and Tarkington and all those guys. But the option part of it where you're truly in 11 on 11 in the run game, as Mike Shanahan used to explain to us, he's like, this is why it's effective and it's not going anywhere. Because you've got your quarterback involved in the run game.

you're 11 on 11, and with the read option part of it, it just keeps the defense in conflict. And then the quarterback typically has more times than not an easier landing spot, whether it's out of bounds or sliding, than he does on quarterback counter or quarterback power. So I'm wondering if you see and if you agree that there's a difference there between quarterback counter Cam Newton, Josh Allen, Jalen, Jalen Hertz, and the option game? Very much so. There's a tremendous contrast and difference in those schemes.

For one, all right, the option, what we call zone replay, it puts the quarterback typically out on the perimeter, where now it's a quarterback or a safety that may be the player, the conflict player, that the quarterback has to now decide, do I try and make a miss? Do I jump over them, run them over, or do I just cut my losses and get five and slide, you know? Now, let me preface things by saying that as far as a reminders, all right?

I'm sharing my viewpoint on, you know, exposing the quarterback and really coaching and training and teaching your quarterback to get five and slide to not expose himself and take these hits. Because I did not do a great job of convincing Andrew Luck to not do the things that I'm telling you will ultimately lead to your quarterback, all right, of being in harm's way. you know, Andrew was a lot like Jaden from a standpoint of, hey, you know, the last thing he wanted to do was take a sack and he didn't like throwing the ball away either. So he would take off and go and if he needed, if it was, you know, a matter of him, you know, just putting his head down or shoulder down to get a couple tough yards, he would do that. But the difference in Cam Newton, Andrew Luck, all right, and Jason Daniels is about 35 pounds. Right. You know, St. Daniels is 210 pounds, all right? And that's with, you know, a whole gallon of protein shake and creatine and a whole bunch of weightlifting.

You know, he is of a slender build and frame, all right, but what makes him exceptional is how fast he is. He is quick and fast, and these guys just, they have a hard time catching him, all right? And as fun as he is to watch, all right? I enjoy watching him so much that I want to be able to continue watching him. And just in my experience, you know, I just don't recall the times in which a quarterback was able to really just be available, all right, for the duration of the season. when he took more than three square hits a game. You know, I would count the number of times that my quarterback's got touched over the years, and I would definitely cringe, all right, and look away when I saw them getting formed-tapped.

You know, you really don't ever want to see your quarterback getting formed-tackled by a lineback. No. And that's why, like, I think, and I'm going to ask you about Cliff King's, very next. But I love everything I'm watching. And I personally as a fan, I understand the risks, but if you don't use him in the running game, I think you're as good as he is from the pocket and as good as he is throwing it, especially in the option part, I think that would be nuts not to include that. I can't stand when they run them on these quarterback counters into traffic, into piles. Those are the plays that I wouldn't want.

But Kingsbury's got him in there. We see Jalen run it all the time in Philly. We see Josh Allen do it all the time. Obviously, Lamar. And you've already discussed the differences between, you know, Jaden and some of these other guys. It's, you know, 25, 30 pounds or whatever it is. But anyway, I've got a little bit more for you.

I want to ask you about Cliff Kingsbury. So you've been so generous with your time. Stick around. We're going to take a quick break. More with Pep Hamilton after these were. from a few of our sponsors. So guys, if you're like me and you've basically been buying and wearing this same type of underwear for years, in my case, boxer briefs, same brand, same type for a long time, well, not

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Hit the plus button or the follow button. That's a tremendous help for the podcast. We continue with Pep Hamilton. What kind of job is Cliff Kingsbury doing? He's doing a masterful job. You know, the one thing that the commanders are doing on offense, that's really creating strife and problems for NFL defenses is their up-tempo offense. They're no huddle offense.

They're playing fast. You got Terry McLaurin and the rest of the weapons that they have offensively, all right, spread out all across the field. But the defenses have to really just center their attention on the mobility of the quarterback. Well, as soon as you start to really just. try and zone in on worrying yourself about the quarterback taking off and running, all right? Jayden Daniels has shown that he is an elite passer from the pocket.

But Cliff, Cliff in the office of staff, by the way, the quarterback coach to be the Pritchard. He was a graduate assistant for me at Stanford, back when I was a coordinator at Stanford, he's done a great job of fundamentally, and really cerebrally helping Jaden to transition to the NFL game.

But Cliff is really in tune with what Jaden is able to do, and he has put Jaden in the position to be successful. So I'm going to rewind one more time back in 2003, I think it was. when I first joined the Jets, New York Jets, in that quarterback room was Chad Pettington, all right? Vinny Testa Verdy? Vinny Testa Verdi? But Cliff was one of the quarterbacks. Oh, yeah.

Hopefully, you know, Cliff doesn't hold a grudge, but we ended up cutting Cliff that offseason, so he wasn't around for very long. Yeah. But smart guy, nice guy. It's been around this spread, air raid attack for many years at Texas Tech. He tried to do the same at the Cardinals. And now he has another opportunity to take another dynamic young quarterback and put him in a position to be successful.

And he has done a massive job thus far. And I anticipate that he'll continue to do a great job. Because when Jay Daniels got hurt the other day, this past Sunday, They didn't miss a beat. They put Marriota in the game. Marietta has a similar skill set. It's Jaden. Jaden is probably a better passer

from the pocket. No slight against Marietta. But, I mean, it's just offensively. They're fun to watch. And the league, the defenses around the league hadn't quite figured out how to slow down

their up-tempo, no-huddle attack this yet. All right. I've taken up so much of your time. So let me end with this. They play the Bears Sunday. We don't know if Jaden's going to play or not. He did not practice today, Wednesday.

And so, like, just let's assume for a moment that he does play. How would you view that matchup? If Jaden was healthy, I would still be in favor of the commanders having a slight advantage over the bears. if Jason is in any way affected by, it's a rib injury, correct? Yeah, ribs. Yeah, I would argue that, you know, it may not be in his best interest to take off and run and expose himself the way that he's been exposed in this early part of the season. But the commanders are playing good team football.

the Bears are now starting to find their stride. Caleb is playing good football. What they did over in London against the Jaguars was very impressive. But no, it's going to be a good game. It'll be exciting. It'll be a lot of fun to watch. And I was playing golf this morning here in Houston, and a buddy of mine that I played golf with is a die-hard Bears fan.

And he was talking about the game on Sunday night. and he was like, well, if Jayden's not going to play, they should move that game back to Sunday afternoon. You know, it's not going to be as exciting and fun to watch. I don't agree with that. I feel strongly that this commander's team is built the right way. You know, their head coach, Dan Quinn, has always been, all right, I don't want to say a player's coach

and make it sound like a negative, but he's been a guy that's been able to galvanize his players and get his players to play hard, together and really buy into that team first approach, and they're going to come out and play good football regardless. This was such a pleasure for me. I really,

really enjoyed it. The stories, the people that you've been around during your career, really, really remarkable and so fun to listen to some of that stuff. Thank you for doing this. I'd love to do it again in the future. You got it, man. Go

bison. Go Tirt. Go commanders. Let's go. Go DMV. Let's go. PEP Hamilton, everybody, really enjoyed that. He was great. Again, like I said in the open, I was not planning on that. I was not planning on doing it this way, but he just had so much and was so generous with his time. So I thank him for that. All right, that is it for this Saturday, back tomorrow night after Washington, Chicago.