The Kevin Sheehan Show - Joe Jacoby Snubbed Again

Episode Date: January 16, 2020

Kevin opened up with the Hall of Fame news that Jimbo Covert (Bears) is in....Joe Jacoby isn't. Kevin, Aaron, and Ben Standig (The Athletic) talked Georgetown and college hoops before the conversation turned to the Jack Del Rio and Scott Turner press conferences yesterday. <p> </p><p>Learn more about your ad choices. Visit <a href="https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices">podcastchoices.com/adchoices</a></p> Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You want it. You need it. It's what everyone's talking about. The Kevin Sheehan Show. Now here's Kevin. I'm here. Aaron's here. Ben Standing from the athletics. I'm going to join us on the show today as well to talk about the Jack Del Rio and Scott Turner conference call. Get together. Get together yesterday with the media. So we'll go through all of that. I just wanted to start real quickly. I want to talk some college basketball here for a little bit. But before we get to that, you know, the Hall of Fame yesterday. This is the centennial year of the National Football League. They're putting more people from the past into this year's Hall of Fame class. It's going to be a class of 20. 13 of those are former players from way back in the day and former contributors as well. Drew Pearson, the longtime Cowboys receiver, didn't get into the Hall of Fame. He was very distraught over that. You've probably seen some of the stories about that. I feel badly for him, just like I felt badly for Joe Jacoby. Joe Jacoby is deserving of the Hall of Fame. Let me just say that. We've talked about that many times. I actually don't think that Drew Pearson is like,

you know, one of these guys that has to be in the Hall of Fame personally. He's the last player from that all-decade team who isn't in it, though. Is that true? Yeah. From the 1970s all-decade team? What about Cliff Branch? It might be the last offensive player. Like, I saw something it was like the last, it was either last offensive player or last player who wasn't in the Hall of Fame. I want to look that up. That's very interesting to me because I did 20 minutes on this on the radio this morning. And, you know, Lin-Swan, Drew Pearson are the first-team receivers. Harold Carmichael Paul Warfield's second-team receivers.

You know, I'm sorry, but Cliff Branch should be, you know, included. Harold Jackson should be included, you know, in that 70s list. This is from New East Grugs and Rich Hill, the only eligible all-decade offensive defense's first-teamers to not be in the Hall of Fame from the 70s. It's Pearson, 80s. Everyone's in the Hall of Fame. What about Jake? Isn't Jake the second or third,

it's like a second or third team all tackle, you know, all decade. First team. Oh, for the first teamers. Yes. Okay. Yeah, let me just see on the 80s team.

The first team, see, this is, I'm sorry. I didn't, I actually didn't know this, and I appreciate you bringing this up. Jacoby's a second team all decade recipient for the 80s. as a left tackle along with Gary Zimmerman. The first team tackles are Munoz in Covert. Covert got into the Hall of Fame yesterday. Jimbo Covert should not be in the Hall of Fame before Joe Jacoby.

This was the purpose of starting this conversation, or starting the show with this conversation. You know, Joe Jacoby played, first of all, many more years than Covert did. But beyond that, you know, their careers sort of paralleled each other in the 80s. Jacobi had three all pro nominees, three all pro nods. Covert had two. Jacoby was in four Pro Bowls. Covert was in two. Jacoby won three, was a part of three Super Bowl winning teams. Covert won. Covert's team that won the Super Bowl was a defensive team, the 85 Bears. Jacoby played on a team that was

highlighted by his and Russ Grimm and Jeff Bostic, et cetera, the hogs play during those three Super Bowl wins. Covert basically spent half of his career because he only had an year career watching Joe Jacoby playing the goddamn Super Bowl. Okay, Jimbo Covert does, Jimbo Covert does not deserve to be in the Hall of Fame before Joe Jacoby. That's number one. Number two is this. The Drew Pearson thing, Cliff Branch was a player in the 70s who's not in the Hall of

Fame on those great Raiders teams into the 80s, too. Cliff Branch has better numbers than Drew Pearson. But beyond that, forget about the numbers here for a moment. If you watched and grew up with football in the 70s like I did, that was a child of 70s, and that's when I fell in love with the NFL. Cliff Branch was a wide receiver that defenses had to game plan for. He was the best deep threat in the game. Okay, he was a guy that when you played the Raiders, whether Stabler was the quarterback or Plunkett was the quarterback, or Mark Wilson was the quarterback, whoever the quarterback was, Cliff Branch, number 21, had to be

game planned for. Drew Pearson was a really good player in the 70s. I didn't think he was in the Hall of Fame, and I do this all the time, because I don't really have them. the Hall of Fame memorized. I don't. But, you know, if somebody brings up a player and says, is that player in the Hall of Fame? I would have said before yesterday, I don't think Drew Pearson's in the Hall of Fame. And I don't think Drew Pearson is a Hall of Famer. That was my first reaction. Went back, looked at the numbers.

Really good player in the 70s. Good receivers in the 70s. Branch isn't in the Hall of Fame. And then a guy from the 70s got in yesterday as part of this, you know, centennial group going in. Harold Carmichael got into the Hall of Fame. Carmichael, a 6-foot-8 receiver for the Eagles. I mean, Pat Fisher owned him for much of his career. I didn't think of Harold Carmichael as a Hall of Famer before yesterday, and I really don't think that Harold Carmichael was a Hall of Fame kind of a player.

Charlie Taylor, even though his career ended in 1975, 76, he's the best receiver of the 60s and 70s in terms of the guys of that decade. Harold Jackson was exceptional. Swan and Stallworth, obviously very good. Blitnikoff. I mean, come on. Best hands in the business in that decade. You know, you had guys like Gene Washington and Ken Burrow.

Good receivers. John Gilliam, you know, just in thinking through. I mean, Pearson played on cowboy teams that were excellent, man. Tony Dorset for half that decade. You know, Billy Joe Dupree, the other running backs, Dwayne Thomas, Calvin Hill, you know, Robert Newhouse, you know, great defenses, great coaching staff. Cliff Harris got in yesterday. I don't think of Cliff Harris as a Hall of Famer.

I don't know how they did this yesterday and not and overlooked Joe Jacoby again. This is something that's hard to really determine for all of us. You know, do you compare numbers? Do you compare sort of the qualitative, what you remember watching them, you know, what their peers say, what coaches say? You know, it's a very subjective thing. I understand that. My biggest gripe is Jacoby not in Jimbo Covert in. because their two careers essentially paralleled each other,

and Jacoby was a better player on a team that was much more offensive and relied very much on their offensive line, and Covert played on a team that was dominant defensively. The Redskins and the Bears played in the postseason three times in the 80s. The Bears came in here the year before they won the Super Bowl in 84 and beat the Redskins at RFK Stadium in the divisional round. They sacked Thysmen like nine times in the game. The famous story about that game, the Bears pass rush, the Bears defense in 84 was, I mean, you saw it coming.

It was such a great defense. And then 85 it was all time. But it was great in 84 too. But the famous story about that particular game is that Joe Gibbs, who was absolutely fearful of the shotgun because of the risk with the snap. I mean, think about this. You know, it's in 1980s. And, you know, everybody's moving to the shotgun and Gibbs' quarterbacks were all under center for every single snap. Well, they had apparently practiced the shotgun leading into that playoff game because the Bears' defense was so menacing.

And it got out through a local reporter that the Redskins in practice were practicing the shotgun with Thysman, and Gibbs was irate and didn't run it in the game against the Bears. In January of 1980, the playoff game actually I think was New Year's Eve, 1984. They lost. There was a big fake punt in that game. Walter Payton had a big game actually threw a touchdown pass in that. that game. I believe that's the case. I'm going to look up that this, the, that particular box score. Let's see if I have that right. I know there was a huge fake punt in the game. The Redskins had won that division that year on the final week of the year against the Cardinals at RFK. They beat Roy Green and Stump Mitchell, that particular team, a Jim Hannafin team that was really good with St. Louis.

that year. Neil Lomax was the quarterback. They beat him 29, 27. It was the game where Art Monk, I think, set the record for a season, a number of catches in a season. Monk set that record, I think, in that game, the season finale. And then they played the Bears. Okay, here it is. December 30th, all right, not New Year's Eve, almost one day off. 23 to 19 Bears won that game. And in that game, you had, yeah, Walter Payton threw a touchdown pass, through a halfback option, touchdown pass to Pat Dunsmore. And Steve Fuller was the quarterback in that game for the Bears. McMahon would be the quarterback to next year.

Walter Payton rushed for 104 yards in that game. I'm not going to see the fake punt unless I go to the play-by-play, but I'm pretty sure they had a huge fake punt in the game. I could be wrong about that. Maybe I'm just remembering the Peyton play. Let's see if they've got play-by-play of this game. they don't. Anyway, I do remember that game for the most part, not all of it. Redskins were nine-point favorites in that game, and that was the beginning of the 85 bears. The 84 bears,

you saw it coming. You saw how great they were, and Thysman wasn't sacked nine times. Here it is, seven times in the game. The Bears' defense had seven sacks in the game. Richard Dent had three of them. Hampton had two. McMichael had one. They were coming. My point is, is the Bears were known for their great defense and winning with defense. The Redskins known for their running game and their offensive line. And the Redskins then went on after that game, losing to the Bears, to beat the Bears twice in the postseason at Soldier Field. The 86 season featured the Bears coming off the 85 years, the defending champs, a 14 and two season, and the Redskins went in there and beat them in the divisional round, 27 to 13, I think was the final score of that game.

And then in Walter Payton's final game, which was the game that Daryl Green had the punt return the following year, went in there and beat those bears 21 to 17, courtesy of the late third quarter, Darrell Green, one of the most famous plays in franchise history, punt return at Soldier Field and what would turn out to be Walter Payton's final game. And there is the iconic shot of, you know, the frigid weather at Soldier Field. The Redskins, you know, having won the game and Walter Payton sitting on the bench, you know, head in hands, you know, devastated knowing that that was his final game as an NFL player, a loss at home to the Redskins. Jimbo Covert lost, his team's lost to the Redskins twice, beat him once. Redskins won three Super Bowls. Jocobie's

accolades during that decade more than covert, with the exception of this first team all-decade designation with Jacobi's second team all-decade designation. Ridiculous. The other part of this real quickly is just the process of, you know, of poor Drew Pearson, you know, told you might be in, you might not, you've got to sit there and watch. It wasn't nearly as bad as what Jacoby had to do a few years ago. They flew them out for that Super Bowl in San Francisco, flew them out there, put them into a hotel and told them you'll hear a knock on the door and you'll be told, you know, by God, the hand of God will touch you and say you're in the Hall of Fame. You've got to sit here, you've got to wait basically all day, all night, all day tomorrow,

and just wait for somebody to come by a knock, and the knock never came. That's tormenting. I mean, what is that about? Stop, okay? Put it all on to this Saturday night during Super Bowl weekend. It's a great little, you know, hour program on Saturday night before the Super Bowl, and tell everybody, you know, every year they're 25 semifinalists, it gets narrowed down to 15 finalists,

tell everybody, no matter where you are, you don't have to be out here, we're not going to come by and knock on your door to give you the news, just stay at home, watch the program, and find out if your name gets called. That's all. It's ridiculous. The whole process is way too self-important.

You know, this is a debate we get into all the time as NFL fans, and every single NFL fan base basically has their list, right? has their list of players that should be in the Hall of Fame and you're angry about it. And Cowboy fans, Drew Pearson, Cliff Harris, I'm sure there are a couple of others. Drew Pearson didn't get in. You know what? Maybe with that reaction now, he'll get in next year with the senior committee. You know, Joe Jacoby's number one on my list. He is the player of Redskins past that deserves to be in the Hall of Fame.

He had a Hall of Fame career. To me, it's not even close. He should be in. all of the other players that we talk about, Brian Mitchell, Gary Clark, Larry Brown, Jerry Smith, are all Hall of Fame consideration worthy. You know, there's a debate to be had. There's a discussion to be had. But I don't consider them to be like, oh, my God, it's been egregious over the years that these players aren't in the Hall of Fame.

And I loved Brian Mitchell's career. He's still second all-time on the all-purpose list. I believe he is to Jerry Rice. And the thing, and I mentioned this this morning, and I've mentioned it, in the past. The great thing about Brian Mitchell's career is that every big game he played in, he was clutch. He played his best in the game's most meaningful moments. I think back to the playoff game at Minnesota, the year after the Redskins won the Super Bowl, the 92 season, January of 93. Brian has a 45-yard run on a fake punt as the up guy. He ends up catching a touchdown

pass, I believe, in that game, and then nearly pulls off, you know, contributes to to a stunning win the following week at Candlestick against the 49ers. He played really well. He had the kickoff return in the playoff game against Tampa in 2000 that gave the Redskins a 13-0 lead. That was as close as the Redskins have been to NFC Championship Sunday since 1991. They were really close. They had Tampa beat. I mean, pretty much in deep trouble, up 13-0, third quarter after Mitchell's 100-yard kickoff return. And they blew that lead, lost 14 to 13. Tampa went on to St. Louis the following week and lost to the greatest show on turf, the Rams. Remember, too, that Brian Mitchell in his career in Philadelphia, and some of those

playoff games had big returns. He was a clutch player. Do I consider Brian Mitchell to be an absolute, you know, ridiculous, egregious, insulting miss with on the Hall of Fame? I don't. I think he's certainly worth considering, like Gary, you know, like Gary Clark. like Larry Brown, who was the NFL MVP in 1972, like Jerry Smith. Joe Jacoby should be in the Hall of Fame. Certainly yesterday reminded all of us of that. I don't think it's an anti-redskinned bias. I don't.

But I don't know what the deal is with Jake and why Jimbo Covert is in the Hall of Fame before Joe Jacoby is. Anyway, that's enough on that. Real quickly, before we get to Ben Standing, I wanted to mention Georgetown because I watched a little bit of this game last night. They beat Creighton, 83 to 80. It's their second win over a ranked team this year. Creighton was ranked 25th.

Georgetown's 12 and 6, 2 and 3 in the Big East. They are for Joe Lenardi's latest bracketology. They are in the field. They're 12 seed playing in that first four against Virginia, actually. That's Lunardi's latest bracketology. That would be kind of fun. Georgetown, Virginia. in the first four on a Tuesday or Wednesday night.

But they have a player that I was watching last night. First of all, their guard, Mack McClung. He had the flu last night. Apparently multiple players were sick and had the flu last night, but they won the game anyway. But the player that I wanted to talk about is that seven-footer. Umar Yertson. He had a game last night.

It went for 20 and 13 points. And I'm watching him like, wow, he is skilled offensively for a seven-footer. He can stretch you out to behind the three-point line and shoot that three-pointer. He's got a great jump shot. He's got a good feel around the basket, both hands. So I did a little research on him. Do you know that he had a game in 2016

as an under-18 player in Turkey? He's from Turkey. It was a Turkish league under-18 game where he scored 91 points and grabbed 28 rebounds. True story. I mean, I don't know what the competition was like. Does it matter? He had a Wilts Chamberlain game.

91 points, 28 rebounds is like a 17-year-old in an under-18 game in Turkey. Turkey produces some pretty good basketball players. 91 points, 28 rebounds. He was a five-star recruit. Went to NC State. Now is at Georgetown. He's good. He's averaging 16 and 10.

I have no idea if he's a good defender. He is very Euro sort of isish in terms of his versatility offensively, his ability to stretch you with the jump shot. And I thought he looked good around the basket last night. I haven't watched a lot of Georgetown, but that kid was impressive. And I know they've got other impressive players. You know, Patrick right now essentially has only got six players that he plays. You know, after all of that mass exit in December, you know, mutual parting of the ways with various players, he's basically got six players.

That number zero plays a little bit off. the bench. His last name's Blair. I think it's Javon Blair. He plays real minutes. Anybody else that gets into the game gets in for like a couple of minutes just to spell somebody. It's actually a great position to be in if you're a coach where you don't have to worry about playing time for people that are complaining about playing time to have like a limited bench. Now, you're in trouble if you get in foul trouble or somebody else gets injured or leaves. I like their team a little bit. It's not going to be, it's not going to surprise me at all if they end up in the tournament. I'm Georgetown this year. The other thing, Aaron, just about this

college basketball season, three more top 10 teams went down last night. Fourth-ranked Auburn lost for the first time. They lost to Alabama on the road. That line stunk, I mean, stunk big time. It was Alabama plus one at home against the fourth-ranked team in the country that was undefeated, one of two undefeated teams left. Alabama blew him out. Butler and Kentucky lost two. They were both top 10 teams. Butler lost to Seton Hall, who's ranked. The night before that, Duke lost to Clemson. Sunday, it was eighth ranked Michigan State losing by 29 at Purdue. This season so far in college basketball has been, I can't remember a season in which in the first month of the season, four number one teams lost. It's never happened. Evansville beat Kentucky. Stephen F. Austin beat Duke. Michigan State and Louisville both lost as, as top.

ranked teams in the first month of the season. And just to tell you how hard it is to predict this season, Michigan State and Louisville were number one teams once, you know, a month, month and a half ago. And they're not even ranked in the top 10 anymore. How about UNC being a top 10 team and them being a legitimate bad team? North Carolina is in last place in the ACC. Last place. UCLA is in last place in the PAC 12. At one point in December, Ohio, Ohio State was killing people, and they were number two in the country. And after they got to that level, after blowing out Villanova, blowing out Kentucky, they blew out North Carolina.

We didn't know anything about North Carolina at the time. Didn't know how bad they were. After they got to number two in the country, they lost five of their next six games by an average of 11 points per game. I mean, who's good? I mean, there's only one unbeaten team left in the sport, San Diego State. They're good. I like them.

They haven't lost. They've got that point guard that's really good. Malachi Flynn is good. I watched them one night late because I was involved in the game. They beat Creighton by 31 in Iowa by 10 in the non-con. They're in the non-conference. They're in the mountain west. Who the hell knows whether or not what we're seeing right now is real?

They're a projected two seed right now. Gonzaga is really good. Here's the problem with Gonzaga in San Diego State. We say this every year. It's like after November and December, what do we really know about them? You know, because of the leagues they play in. I've mentioned what John Thompson told me many, many years ago

about November and December college basketball. He said there's nothing more irrelevant in college sports than November and December college basketball. It takes at least two to three months for coaches to figure out what they have, to play the way they think they can play, to really figure everything out. And he's like, you're not going to know anything until you get into the middle of conference play and towards the end of, you know, January, February, and into March. So the

big wins that Gonzaga and San Diego State had in November and December really don't mean much. They do on their resume for the tournament, but are we really learning anything about what they're going to be in March? I mean, Gonzaga's been a major player. But, you know, Virginia. Virginia was ranked fifth one month ago, and we know what they lost from their title team, you know, Ty Jerome, Hunter, you know, Kyle Guy. But they were ranked fifth a month ago, and now they've got three straight losses, and they're on the bubble for the tournament right now. Maryland, we had this conversation yesterday, ranked as high as third in December,

right now on the verge of falling completely out of the top 25 if they don't beat Purdue on Saturday. You know, it was a devastating loss the other night. But Maryland's essentially having the same kind of season that all of the other perceived really good teams are having, up and down. One night you're like, whoa, I thought they were much better than that. And then the next night is, wow, they're really good. That's essentially where college basketball is. I do think, and I've watched Dayton a little bit with Obie Toppin,

he's probably among the two or three best players in the country. Anthony Grant coaches Dayton. Remember when Grant was at VCU? He created VCU in the Final Four run they had. And well, Chaka Smart was the coach, right? Chaka Smart replaced Anthony Grant and took that team to the final four. But Anthony Grant sort of started the ball rolling, and then he went to Alabama. And then he's at a college coaching, and he's an assistant for Oklahoma City in the NBA.

And now he's back at Dayton. And they're a good team. And Obie Toppin is a really good player. But I have no idea. I don't think anybody can figure this thing out right now. Who do you think is really good? Who do you think right now is an absolute lock for the final four? I mean, no one's a lock for the final four.

Who would you strongly favor? Duke, I think, is the best team in the country right now, despite their losses. They have two of the weirdest losses of the, year, but I think overall Duke is the best team in the country. I thought so before the other night. The other night's not going to change my mind that much, but you're right. They actually really looked good in their couple of games leading up to the other night. Yeah, I think that they are the most dynamic.

I think they are the best team. And again, we're basically two shots away from them being undefeated. I actually think Dayton is a very, very good team. Yeah. I think Kansas and Baylor are good. But again, they're both weird. They're both taking a little bit of weird losses. But to your point, yeah, there's not a team that I probably won't be betting any futures for the NCAA tournament

because the NCAA tournament I feel is going to be as wild as it ever is. As mentioned, I think Dayton and Topin have a really good chance because he is a true great player. He's going to be a very high draft pick in June in the NBA draft. I think they're a very interesting team to watch. I sort of agree with you in Duke. The whole Baylor thing every year, I just think Scott Drew somehow they'll blow it. somebody, they're good, though. They went to Kansas the other night and won.

Real quickly, Gensaga, as the number one team in the country right now, they play 15 and 3 Santa Clara in their conference tonight. Santa Clara, really good. 15 and 3, not bad. You know, that's a pretty good, pretty damn good record. There are 20-point underdog tonight to Gonzaga. That's the problem with that league, as we know. All right, quick word about mystamps.com.

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never have to go to the post office again. All right, let's bring in Ben Standing from the athletic to talk about a lot of things. Ben was a participant in the conference calls yesterday with Jack Del Rio and Scott Turner, the two new coordinators for the Redskins. We will get to that momentarily. Aaron and I, I opened up the show with a lot of college hoops. Georgetown in particular, you know, I like that big dude. I think he's got some skill, man.

I think he's really highly skilled. And they've got this short bench. And I know you follow college basketball a lot. I haven't watched a lot of Georgetown. But they're right now in Lunardi's latest bracketology is a 12 seed. Do you think that they get through the Biggie schedule with a resume at the end of it that says they're a tournament team or not? I mean, I think it's all going to come down to at this point. The seven guys they have to healthy.

And like that almost seems like it's almost not even, it hasn't been possible so far. The first couple games of the, of Biggie's play, and Mac McClung, either their top score, missed the game with an injury yesterday. They beat Creighton, top 25 team, but in doing so, they did it with McClung and their other guards, around dealing with the flu, like Allen, like almost like passed out or something at the end of the game, as their Georgetown assaults was a game away. So they literally are a hang nail away from never for having negative. depth. So that's their only problem.

But from like a pure resume standpoint, like after all the chaos went on where people were leaving the program, they ripped off big wins, Oklahoma State, SMU, Syracuse, what have you. And doing that, put them in the position where as long as they go, you know, in a general sense, they go 500 and the Big East,

I think they get in, but the Big East is freaking the load is this year. I mean, I don't even know who the worst team of the conference is, so between the fact that the conference is, is deep and they literally, they're only playing seven guys. And when I say seven, I mean, that's not even, you know, they have like one forward, you know, one of the, two of the seven are centers are really can't play together. So, like, it's kind of limited, but they do, you know, they've done

enough. I think they could get in. They just have to, they can't afford any more issues. You know, it's really funny. Like, if you talk to coaches, they'll tell you, God, you know, sometimes I wish I just had seven guys, you know, that I played. I had two solid guys off the bench. You're college basketball, 40-minute game, you know, five under four, you know, every four minutes, you had a clock stopping for, you know, a two-minute commercial break. You know, if you stay healthy and you stay out of foul trouble, it's actually a lot easier than having 10 guys that you play.

I mean, we saw that with Maryland early in the year when the twins were there. Like, he had a different starting lineup every night. He had more of a challenge in getting guys that he promised playing time in the game than dealing with the opponent. And so I actually in some ways, I bet you a lot of coaches envy Patrick's situation right now. Now, you don't want six, and they only really play Blair for significant minutes off the bench. You'd love to have seven or two or three off the bench that you can rely on. But every time I watch them and I watched last night, I'm impressed with this. them. I think they're well-coached. I think he's doing a really good job. I think they play smart most

of the time. You're right about the Big East, man. It is, I mean, DePaul, remember early in November, December, they were undefeated. You know, they had a couple of decent wins. They won a couple of games over Big Ten teams, if I recall. I think they beat Iowa, among others. They haven't even won in the Big East yet. They're dead last in the Big East. It's a good league, top to bottom. It's going to be tough, but if they get to 500, what do they play, 18? 18 in conference? I think that's right, yeah. If they get to 500 with, you know, and I know Oklahoma State doesn't look as good, you know, Texas, Oklahoma State, SMU, Syracuse, am I forgetting anybody?

They got blown out by Penn State, I remember that. And they nearly beat Duke. I mean, they had a chance to be Duke. Yeah, I mean, effectively they had no bad losses. The three losses were the teams that were in Ken Palm, 100, including Duke. You know, they opened Big East to play with a loss at Providence, which we'll see what that looks like. But, you know, on the road in the conference play, and no McClung, if you know, look at the specific people will give them a pass.

So, yeah, I mean, it's quite remarkable what they were able to do. You mentioned Yurts Haven, the big man in the middle. I mean, he's incredibly polished. I mean, at the worst case for him, he'll play 10, 15 years in Europe and kill it when he's done with college, but he's got a shot at the NBA. and they have the pieces, but like I said, they are just, it's one thing to only go like six or seven. It's another thing to literally, when you have to go to eight and you're going to a walk on. And that's basically where they're at.

It'll be a challenge, but, you know, so far as a good eye, but my biggest take was up until this, up until the moment where these kids all, you know, left the program for whatever the reason, I don't think anyone could say definitively whether Patrick Ewing was a good coach. I don't mean a recruiter. I mean, like an actual tactician. and he's had to now put that, he's had to showcase that side of his game, and you have to give him credit. They've done a good job.

I mean, you know, they kept them focused, and, you know, these are things, there's no other choice. All you can do is almost strategize the game when you're this short-handed, and he's done a good job. Yeah, you're seven, the seven-footer, if you haven't seen him, people out there, watch him. He's going to be drafted. And, I mean, it may be a second round pick.

that guy, I've not looked at a mock draft in a couple of weeks. I've watched him maybe twice this year. He is too skilled for a seven-footer not to get a look. I would be shocked if that dude, unless there's something wrong with him, isn't picked in the NBA draft in June. You know, it's just a matter of he's looking more of a traditional old-school, you know, interior center. The game has sort of gone away from that.

He's not much of a shot blocker, and I don't really know if he can defend, you know, players on the perimeter that well. But, you know, so things like that that could potentially limit him. It's more of the evolution of the game than it is the guy. But, yeah, no, he's he incredibly skilled. Where's he in the mocks? I mean, you do mocks for a living.

Is he being mocked as a first round or second round, or I haven't looked at any recently? I honestly haven't been looking at the NBA one. I mean, I figure I'll spend a lot of time when we get to the Wizards down the line. But, I mean, I don't think I was reviewing him being picked, at least in the front. at all. If it's a second, I guess anything is possible. But like I said, I think it's just a matter of, you know, did, does a team view of him as a viable player? You know, when you're doing pick and rolls, he's got a guard guys up on the perimeter, and he's not a major shop. Not a mature and protector. But like I said, he definitely varies offensively. And certainly, you know, from what I've heard, teams would want to take a look at him for sure. At Ben Standing on Twitter. He writes for the athletics. Subscribe like I did to the athletics so you can read Ben. He's always all over the Redskins. He's doing a phenomenal job covering them.

We'll get to them in a moment, but just sticking with college hoops for one more minute. Aaron and I had the conversation about how up and down this season's been. Like you've had, you know, last night three more top 10 teams lost. Duke lost the night before. Michigan State went to Purdue and lost by 30, 29 to be exact. It's just a crazy year. And, you know, we've had conversations here recently about Maryland and the loss they had the other night at Wisconsin, which is not a bad loss. The way it happened was very frustrating. And of course,

the Maryland fan base, the passionate fan base starts to go nuts like they do, like everybody's got to be, you know, fired. And that's a debate about Mark Turgeon, which, you know, we could have briefly, we did it yesterday on the show. But who's good? You follow this sport. I follow this sport. Aaron follows this sport. Who's really good? Like, I mean, we've seen so many of the top teams up and down, bad losses, great wins. Who do you think's really legitimate and has a chance to make a final four run? I mean, I'll be honest, like because of the Redskins chaos. You're not watching it as much. Not a time, but I guess I would just say that my basic take, and I've talked to people around the NBA and some other college people in my lifetime, I think this is the worst year of

college basketball that I can recall because from the same point of I can't point to any team that that would say, well, that team looks fantastic. And there's not even, forget, like, a Zion-William-level interesting player. There's not even like a, is there even like a Trey Young type guy? Like, I don't even know what I'm watching. So, you know, you're watching the schools. Duke's on. I get what that means.

Maryland, obviously, and so on. But, like, it's a bizarre year. I don't really know. I don't really know what this means. And to that end, you could, I mean, I'm not that big on parody and sports. I like, I'm not saying I need a dominant team to win all the time, but I like the dominant team to exist so you know what you're aiming at. But this is a year where in college basketball, all kinds of teams, I think,

could make a real run. If you have, you know, we always talk about having, you know, so upperclassmen in the back court and that type of thing. But, you know, in college basketball these days, whatever you have, if you have enough pieces to make your work, I mean, look, if you told me Georgetown made a deep run, which is borderline insane, because I just said they only have seven guys, and, you know, they haven't been anywhere close to,

because they haven't made the NCAA tournament a few years, But that wouldn't stun me either. This is just an incredibly bizarre year. I'm sure Duke will be in the mix. We'll get to the end, Gonzaga, and so on. But this is not a year where I'm looking at it going, wow, amazing dominant teams. If we did a bracket today, I don't know if I'd have any of one seat in there. Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, last year was actually a standout year for college basketball

because of Zion Williamson and the excitement over him and Duke. And, you know, it manifested itself into a great tournament. I mean, we had great memorable games. Duke lost in the elite eight right here, the Michigan State and a great basketball game. And then you had, you know, Purdue, Virginia in the elite eight. You had the, you know, Virginia, the final four games were incredible last year, including the national championship game, which went to overtime and Virginia beating, you know, Texas Tech,

which nobody had. I think it's going to come down to what it always comes down to in a year like this. And you may be right. It may be the worst year in a long time. I think it's getting compared a little bit to last year. But it'll just come down to matchups. And somebody, one to two teams, you know, South Carolina from a couple of years ago, Texas Tech from last year, even though we knew Texas Tech was really good last year.

But it's going to come down to, you know, two to three teams you're not expecting. The final four last year, let's see if we can remember it. Auburn and Texas Tech. we're both in the final four with Virginia. And no one was really expecting Auburn to be there, obviously. And then Michigan State was the other team, right? Because Michigan State beat Duke and the elite eight. And then Michigan State...

Well, Texas Tech, you know, handled Michigan State easily in the final four. And Virginia won a really tight game against Auburn in the final four. I think that's what it was. I mean, we're getting to the point where we can't remember things that happened like an hour ago. I think that's what happened last year. I do remember the Virginia Purdue game, the Carson Edwards game. That was the game of the tournament last year, right? I think it was.

No, no, you're right. I was at the Duke, Michigan State game. Yeah, it was too. And there, and it's a rare time. I think I was actually rooting for Duke to win because I just want to see Zion keep playing, and especially now that he hasn't played since. But, yeah, look, I mean, I don't want to be like the old man saying college basketball was better back in my day. But the reality is, I think it was.

There's all kinds of reasons why college basketball, for me, is sort of faded among them, the whole one-and-done situation. You know, I'm sure you have to talk about this. There's no connected story lines from year to year anymore where I don't even know who players are. The play, just in general, seems like it's down. this is just a particularly bizarre year where you don't even have teams at the top who, you know, you could definitively say, you feel good about it. I mean, hell, look, this is the year where Rutgers is good.

I mean, what else can I say? I mean, Rutgers and the ball aren't bad. That is nuts. That never happened. And yet, you know, hell, Rutgers, I mean, I think I saw their trending that they make the tournament right now. Oh, they're a good team. They're in second in the Big Ten right now. Right.

I mean, that right there says just how crazy. this whole situation is. But, you know, and I think there is a difference between if you get to Mark and we're talking at games and go to the buzzer, that's not the same. I mean, that's exciting, but that's not the same is good. So right now we're at the point of it, you know, we'll see. I'm not trying to, you know, get, you know, we want people to, you know, give a crap by college basketball because you guys talk about it.

It's important, but I'm just, I don't know, right? Right now, for me, it's sort of a, you know, college basketball is a weird spot right now. Yeah, weird spot. It'll, per usual, we'll get to March. everybody will get their brackets and they'll get excited about it. Last year, really, in terms of the last 10 years, was the exception where people were into it, you know, before the tournament started. And that was really because it had, you know, a perceived superstar player in Zion Williamson.

All right, talking to Ben Standing from the athletic. What stood out from the two conference calls yesterday with the Redskins coordinators? Well, I think the one thing, so, yeah, we started with it. Scott Turner, and then we got to Del Rio. And, you know, first of all, to start with Ron Rivera compared to Jay Gruden, it feels like it's a very, I'm not talking about translating in the wind, but tonally, it feels very different. Rivera's got this military background. He's a former player, defensive-minded guy.

You can just tell the way he talks, things are more regimented and tougher. And then you tack on Jack Del Rio. He answered his questions. And, you know, look, these were, they didn't spill state secrets. I don't know if they said it, and it was particularly enlightening. But the way he spoke, he spoke with a level of intensity where I was almost waiting for him to tell me to do push-ups if he didn't like my question. He was very, he was very on his game, no nonsense. And you can tell, like, that's how it's going to be for this team, I think.

Especially on that side of the ball, I think any, you know, the idea of a club J situation, I think that's over. as we've heard throughout the last few years in terms of training, camp, and practices, and things like that. So I think that from that perspective, that was my biggest takeaway. You know, beyond that, I mean, look, I think they're all in the process of trying to figure out what the heck they have, you know, both in terms of, you know, the building, trying to understand that, you know, that place, but also, you know, the guys on the roster,

I think it's a little easier for Del Rio knowing you've got that defensive line. You got Montez-Settland and Collins. He's got more things to work with. Scott Turner, obviously the big thing is Dwayne Haskins. You know, he said all the right things about him so far. You know, in terms of trying to figure out, you know, a guy who, you know, they said Carolina scouted Dwayne Haskins last year.

They viewed him as a first round pick. They ended up taking a quarterback in the third round, so I don't know. Maybe they would have been, maybe they would have taken Haskin to 16. I doubt it. But Redskins got him one pick before. So, you know, I think by and large, I'm not trying to make any big sweeping takeaways out of these initial kind of conversations. But like I said, the biggest thing for me was Del Rio is no joke.

He's intense. And, you know, I think that's, you know, I think that's a good thing for this team. They need, if there's any one thing, I wasn't necessarily thrilled with the Bill Callahan era per se, but the one takeaway from it, even some of the players, I think agreed, was that he needed more discipline. and they needed more intensity, and I think these guys will definitely supply that. I mean, let's not forget, Greg Minoski told us when he was named defensive coordinator that he was going to build a defense that cracked skulls and struck iron. You know, he's like, we're cracking skulls going downhill and we're going to strike iron. I mean, all of this right now on January 15th, January 16th means nothing.

Del Rio's got a resume. I still view, it's funny how Del Rio is sort of with respect to the face. fan base and, you know, my interaction with different fans, your interaction with different fans, people are so excited about Jack Del Rio. It's Ron Rivera, who I'm excited about. Ron Rivera is a defensive-minded head coach. It's going to be, the defense is going to be reflected in what he wants, you know, and he would, he picked Del Rio in part because he knew Del Rio would agree with his vision. He wasn't looking for a new defensive vision, right? Yeah, absolutely.

At the end of the day, I always think people get too worked up over assistance. I mean, this is even the thing, like when you make the comment about whatever Minnowski said or didn't say, he isn't the overall tone setter. It's up to the head coach to do that, and especially if it's the head coach is on the same side of the ball, in this case with Rivera and Del Rio. You know, no matter what, you know, Rivera is talking a lot about, we're going to have a, you know, collaboration and all that. Okay, it's only collaboration to a point. At the end of the day, he's not going to let everything veer off into ways he doesn't want it to go.

He obviously picked, you know, the idea of having another head coach on the roster, I believe, is appealing to him, and a former head coach, and Del Rio's had two turns there, so that's part of it beyond the defense. But, yeah, obviously, he's known Del Rio a long time. I'm sure he respects his work. But yeah, at the end of the day, Rivera is the one who's going to lead these guys and sort of determine how things, how things have inputs. sure, but yeah, it's all about Rivera for the most part with that question. I'll turn to Scott Turner's answers here in a moment, but sticking with Del Rio here for a moment, there are a couple of things that were interesting to me. One, you know, he talked about,

hey, we're already declared that we're going to be a four or three. For us, it's about having our defensive linemen be penetrative and disruptive. Having a guy like Von Miller or a guy like Khalil Mack, who are premier pass rushers, they put a lot of pressure on the offense and help the defense. And then he said specifically about Chase Young, you know, it talked about how it's too premature to start talking about players. You know, we've got we've got to learn our own players first, we've got to look at free agency, et cetera. Having Von Miller and Khalil Mack can make you look really good as a defensive coordinator, do you think that he, you know, was sort of indicating there? I don't think he was talking about Montez Sweat.

He could have been, and maybe he'll view him that way. But if Chase Young is there at number two, you're going to mock it out here soon enough. But my sense of it is that the Redskins are probably going to take a player that will be evaluated at a level that we haven't seen past Rush or evaluated at in a long time. Yeah, I mean, on the surface, it would seem if the Chase Young hype remains where it is, where I heard Todd McShay, you know, say as good as the both of brothers are better. Said better. Yeah,

I mean, so that right there says a lot. Yeah, it's hard to fathom how they wouldn't take this guy. And, you know,

putting, you know, ignore Ryan Carrigan situation for a minute because, you know, Ryan Carrigan, one way or the other probably won't be here

beyond one more year. So you can take Chase Young and, and, you know, moving to the 4-3, Chase Young is more of a 4-3 guy and so on. My only thing on all this is,

no matter what we all think, we have no idea what Ron Rivera really wants to do. For all we know, he's a kind of guy that wants 15 picks in every draft because he thinks that's the best way to build a team. Or he decides, you know, that it is Chase Young and he wants to be aggressive in other ways.

Or maybe, you know, who knows? I mean, maybe they look at it and decide, you know what? In 2020, a guy like Isaiah Simmons, the sort of hybrid linebacker from Clems, that's an element that will give us a unique element of defensively. I'm not saying any of that's going to happen. Plus, we also don't know, you know, if Tua is healthy and he sounds like he'll be ready to start showing off his wares sometime in March, I need the draft, you know, if some team decides, hey, I need this guy. And if they think they have to get all the way ahead of even the lines, that's three, I don't know if that's true.

But do when somebody comes to do with a godfather offer, you have to consider it. So, you know, I think by all accounts, Chase Young is the obvious call. And, you know, we can, you know, probably almost feel comfortable go buying your, Chase Young, Redskins jersey. But I'm just saying we have, you know, this is a new coach. He's in a new position. Kyle Smith is now, you know, running the front office at this point from a personnel standpoint.

So, you know, I'm not going to presume anything. They're claiming they're not presenting anything. So I think right now I consider everything, but Chase Young is the overwhelming likely scenario for sure. One other thing on Del Rio's answers yesterday. I've loved, you know, every time I've heard from them, including the sit down with Larry for Redskin Nation. and then yesterday, 99% of it I've loved. But there's one part of it, and you were listening to it,

so you know what the tone was. I only read it. That just made me think for a moment, you know what, don't talk about the past. He referred to the lack of communication defensively on last year's team, and he said, quote, all you have to do is watch the tape. When you're watching the tape, there are countless examples of right before the snap

where players are not in a good position, knees bent, focus on the offense. They're kind of turned to each other, looking around like what are we doing or questioning. You can see them asking each other what's going on, the communication, the urgency in getting to the line, the urgency in getting calls and communicating to each other. There was an issue there. Now, where it came from, it doesn't really matter, like blaming who is it. You want to blame players, you want to blame coaches. That doesn't matter to me.

For me, it's about what we're going to be, what we're going to set our minds on being, how we're going to approach it. Now, so I like a lot of his answers. He also referenced about the potential of the defense, and he said, well, obviously, he can be better. They were 32nd and third down defense, 32nd yards allowed, 32nd things in towards the bottom of the league and a lot of things. Actually, they were not 32nd yards allowed. They were 19th in the NFL in yards allowed. I mean, that's a bogus statistical measurement anyway, in my view. Third down defense, dead last in the league, one of the worst third down defenses we've seen in

recent years. Here's my point. You start talking about and start implying that the coaching wasn't very good last year. The first time we see Landed Collins waving his arms around and being confused in a game, you know, in week five against the 49ers and they get lit up, you know, you come back to these kinds of things. I guess you were on the call. Did you sense that it was a direct shot at the staff last year. So it's interesting, obviously, you know, this is our first, our first interaction with him and vice versa. And there was a couple of direct questions where he's asked about what you think about Chase Young and some other specific things. He flat out said, look, I'm not going to tell you guys squat. I'm not going to get, you know, too early in the process anyway, but don't

expect me to be the guy spilling secrets on what I think and all that. But there were a couple times when you asked with a question, including this one, where he was asked about the communication were clearly he was triggered to give a more detailed answer. So this was something that, obviously, he's been,

you know, whatever tape he's watching, whatever his thoughts are, he wasn't, he had been in the analysts last year, so he was, you know, he was paying attention to the league,

so I don't know how much he was watching the Redston, per se, but I'm sure somewhat, that he clearly thought it was, was an issue. So I thought that was interesting just from that perspective,

but that was something that triggered him were other things he was more cautious as I got, you know, past, going to go there. So, you know, it stood out to him. You know, I suspect for him, although he hasn't been, he's been out of the coaching for two years, I'm sure he is all ready to go, and he's got to wait a while.

So the opportunity to have a conversation, I suspect just, you know, with us, was probably something that got his juices going, at least on a couple different topics, this being one of them. So I'm sure he's excited to get, you know, to get back out there at some point with these new players and try to figure what to do. I'm sure all these guys think, hey, I have all the solutions, obviously, right? So, you know, I get it. Look, in this case, I don't think it's wrong. Regardless of whatever happens in the future, we obviously saw so many issues with his defense,

you know, the last couple of years in communication being one of them. So it's not like he was saying something that we're all like what he's talking about. Well, of course. I mean, what he was saying, we're all, of course, nodding our head saying, yeah, of course, it was terrible. And the communication, I mean, how many times on a Monday? Did we say, oh my God, did you see before that play? They were completely confused. And I was told during the season and talked about it a little bit on the radio show and podcast

that, you know, Minuscchi's system was too complex. There were too many calls. It was confusing to everybody. And there was a request, you know, at times for it to be much more simplified. And when they were a little bit more simplified, they were more effective. And these are the things I'm sure Del Rio is mentioning. I just, my preference would be, you know, when asked about last. year's team just say, you know, we're looking to tape. We're looking to players.

Got to get better. Wasn't very good last year, but, you know, there's no, you know, there's no, it's not a given that we're going to be any better next year. We've got to work at it. You know, here's what happens to even the best of people when they come into Ashburn, when they come into Redskins Park. There's this sense in the past of, oh my God, we got to start, you know, promising big here. We got to sell tickets. We got to market this team. We had a terrible year last year in the year before and the year before that. And, you know, let's start talking about our top five defense. People get wrapped up in this thing.

I don't even know how it happens. Like it's the culture of, you know, as I've always called it, overpromising and under-delivering. And God, I just hope that these people don't get caught up in it. And I don't think they will. They're professionals. They've been in real places. They've won.

I just, that was the only thing from either press conference that I was just like, you know, I just wish he wouldn't, you know, sort of. throw the previous coaching staff under the bus until he's done something here. That's all. And I would say that in terms of Rivera, like, he comes across as very practical, but obviously, you know, look, there's things that need to be, you know, fixed. The Redskins that need to be a new coach for a reason, but he also got to, you know, himself, he goes let go for a reason.

And I think he's excited to go to the next place and, you know, You see like an Andy Reid, you know, he went from Philly to Kansas City, and you know you learn from these experiences. Belichick is obviously the, you know, the best example ever, you know, I don't think he failed in Cleveland, but it didn't work out. And then he goes through the place,

and obviously it's fantastic, which isn't to say, you know, Rivera is the next Belichick or even Andy Reid. It's just to say, I think, you know, you get the opportunity to learn from your mistakes. He doesn't have, he gets to put his new, whatever lessons he learned into play quickly, and he does seem, like I said, to be more practical, even keel to some degree.

So, you know, I think he seemed, and again, as the tone setter, he seems to set a reasonable take on that front. And, you know, I think he's really going to try to build the situation up. You know, I think he understands, like, I'm not knocking Jay, but I think, you know, one of the criticism of Jay was, you know, the practices, you know, the little things, did they focus on that stuff? I think Rivera, like, you know, you always heard about, like, John Wooden, like, where he would teach the guys that tie their shoelaces,

to sort of take them all the way back to the basic fundamentals. I don't know if Rivera is going to that extreme, but that's more of the guy I would imagine who's taking these guys all the way back to the true basics and build them up because he needs them to understand we're going to do things a certain way, and you guys aren't all that, but we're going to figure this out together,

and we'll do it one step at a time. I mean, that's my gut, too. I mean, I definitely am optimistic right now, much more so than I've been in recent years. We're talking to Ben Standing. Let's talk about Scott Turner. First of all, you know, it's interesting to me in listening to him talk about growing up here with his father as the head coach here for seven years, and he was 11 years old when Norv got the job here,

17, you know, and a senior in high school when Norv got fired. So this was really much of his formative years, you know, as a human being were spent here, and his memories actually are fond of this area. And he's excited to come back and he's got friends here. what did we learn, A, about the kind of offense, Scott Turner is going to, you know, design and then call, and then B, what they think of Dwayne Haskins, what he thinks of Dwayne Haskins? Well, I mean, I think, you know, I think he talked about, I don't think he really, like, you know, the learning from his dad, you know, who learned from the sort of the air chorial system going all the way back until such an. ancient term. When I've heard that in recent days,

I'm like, wait, what, Eric, Oriel, what a little bit, Joe, I'm going to be here what's around. Yeah. But, you know,

I think he's trying to emphasize less system, more focus on what do I have and how do I make that work. We'll see if that ultimately hold out. That's always been a big bugaboo to me when you had people like Spurrier, you know,

come in and they have my precious system, and then you don't, you know, you build, you don't build for the players. You make the players fit the system, and I often think that's a problem. So,

you know, I think he's trying to figure that out. I mean, I think realistically, while obviously, you know, Carolina played the Redskins last year, so they had some sense, you know, just from that experience of what this is about, but they really are trying to, I think, understand what do they have? And offensively, look, there are so many moving pieces. I don't really even think Scott Turner can tell you anything.

I mean, if we really look at this city here right now and say, what are the Redskins have an offense? You have Terry McLaren. And then, I mean, you know, yeah, technically you have Adrian Peterson, but who knows how that's going to play out? Darius guys, no idea what the make of a guy has been on IR three times in two years. Both your guards are in free agency. We don't know if Trent Williams will be back. You know, negative a tight end last year.

They've got to address that spot. So I don't really know if Scott Turner can say definitive what's going to happen, but he did least seem to talk about trying to build a system around the players more than the other. the way around. So, you know, in terms of Haskins, yeah, I mean, he's so funny, we spent so much time last year debating, should the Redskins be using Dwayne Haskins more, and the counter that Jay Gruden made himself was, well, he's not ready. He's not experienced, and people didn't like that. I personally thought that made reasonable sense. He didn't look like he was ready to me. He only, you know, started one season in college, but people didn't want to hear that. Okay, fine, he eventually

got in there. Scott Turner comes in and says, well, the, the, biggest thing with Haskins is, he's an experience. And he needs to, you know, gain more. And you just know, you do that through reps and practice and things like that. So the new guy comes in and recognizes immediately that Gwain Haskins is, you know, he's not fully formed, which I don't think anybody was suggesting. But, you know, it's just funny that we spent so much time last year debating whether this kid should be thrown in there, which I said no.

And I think that was, I think it was, what they did, I think was a reasonable way to go, especially once the season unfold with the way it did. So I think they, you know, I think that's just the biggest question is, you know, what is Dwayne Hatson going to do? Is he going to be the guys that's here every day during the offseason working with these guys, putting in that time, the effort, be the leader, things like that. I think that's a part of this equation that goes, we can talk about the coaching all we want, but the Wayne Haskins has got to meet that head on and take a lot of the ownership

on himself. You know, you and I have had the conversation while it was happening, after it was happening, you're stubborn. You're stubborn. Askins thing, and you know it because there would have been, look, I'm not saying that it's not possible that, you know, in week three or week four or week five, he really couldn't do it. You know, I would suggest that there's a possibility that he was much less prepared, you know, than versus, you know, the Buffalo game in week nine or ten, whatever that was for his first start.

With that said, I don't think it would have damaged him, you know, for, you know, for career long, for his career, had he started those games. And I think by the time you got to the back half of the schedule, you know, the giant game, the Philadelphia game where he really played well may have been, you know, may have been happening against the Jets and the Lions instead, you know, a few weeks earlier. There's not, I don't know, I think. Yeah, go ahead. What's funny, earlier you said, I think it referencing that you and I are getting old, that we don't remember what happened yesterday. Yeah. I don't remember.

Now that you said it, I remember that you and I've had this conversation, but I wouldn't have come on your podcast and just said, like, all that, like, I've had other people, but I can't remember who I had this conversation. You and I had the conversation. It was either on the radio show or on the podcast. And I said to you, and it was probably, you know, before the Miami game or, you know, I'm like, come on. I mean, they're 0 and 4, oh, and 5.

This is ridiculous. This dude, see, the one thing, and this is the way I felt, my gut feeling going back to training camp, is if I had seen a guy that looked completely overwhelmed and thought that, you know, he had a psyche that was fragile, I would have been with you. But I saw a guy even in the preseason that had a lot of confidence. Maybe it wasn't earned or deserved. but he's one of those dudes and we've all known them. If you've participated in sports at any level,

you know the guy that walks into the gym or walks out onto the field and thinks he's the best player, even if he isn't. And because of that, that level of confidence, you're never really going to, you know, you're never going to really rattle that guy. So I just felt, you know, with him and his personality, or at least me projecting what his personality was, that they were going to be okay playing him,

even if he didn't know the whole playbook. And if you recall, part of my argument at the time, and you probably don't recall, part of my argument at the time was come up with a playbook that works for him. Coach to his level right now, but get him the hell out there so we can see what he has. And, you know, remember, this debate, you know, could have, if Callahan hadn't been named head coach, or if Case Keenan had hung in there and they had beaten, you know, Minnesota, or San Francisco, or, you know, they had won another game along the way. You know, maybe if Case Keenham doesn't even get that concussion in the Minnesota game,

it may not have been for another three or four weeks that we would have seen him. Yeah, I mean, you know, look, obviously there were so many variables, including Gruden fighting for his life and, you know, realistically, and, you know, even until the very end, you know, Case Keenam gave you a better chance to win that game than Haskins the rookie, which is a separate issue than whether Haskins. I don't even think that's true after watching both of them. I think once we got to Haskins' you know, third start, fourth start,

that he actually gave him the best chance to win. Well, that's, I mean, by the, I mean, the Hapkins' last few starts, he definitely looked significantly better than he did early on. You know, I think, again, I'm sure we talked about this before, but part of the part of the situation, like, in the debate of whether DeWain Hatham was getting first team reps, and if it's not,

why isn't he? talking to people in the building, like the sense I had on some level was, look, he can get good work playing on the scout team. He has to put in the work. And I think there was a sense he just wasn't maybe focused him up. And when Gruden threw him into that Giants game and everyone was coming here, this is crazy. Why would you just throw this kid in?

I, you know, whether Jay did it intentionally for this reason or not, you know, I did have the sense later from people later in the season that that was a wake-up call for Askins. To recognize, okay, okay, I don't know everything quite yet. let me focus. So when he did get the opportunity to start for real, he was better prepared on all fronts to sort of deal with. And eventually he did, as we said, he looked much better in his last two starts than he did in some of those earlier outings.

So, you know, it's a tough thing overall again. The overall situation was such a mess because of the fact that you had a head coach who was on the verge of getting fired. It was a mess for him. It was a bad situation for him. So Scott Turner said a couple of things yesterday. about Dwayne Haskins that, you know, if this is what we do, it's like, you know, we could just ignore the whole thing and say, you know, wake me up in September when they've got a real game and

then I'll know what they're really doing. But, you know, he talked about, you know, fitting his offense to the talent that they have. And he said specific to Dwayne, you know, as you mentioned, he said, we did, you know, I did have Dwayne evaluated pretty highly coming out of the draft. And he said that, you know, we've got a big guy in Dwayne, strong guy. He can stand in the pocket, really push the ball down the field. We're going to want to use a lot of play action pass. And then something he's also done a good job of in the past. And in college, too, is just being able to get the ball out quickly and kind of distribute the football to playmakers and let them make the plays. He also said in his conversation with Ron Rivera before he was

given the job, you know, that he, you know, planned for the meeting. with Ron Rivera, and he said I was prepared with a plan of what I'd want our offense to look like and how we would develop Dwayne, our young quarterback, and in all the players. I guess in reading the quotes, I sort of got the sense. If there was any debate as to whether or not they weren't sure yet on Dwayne, they're going down the path right now of Dwayne Haskins as the starting quarterback next year, right? I don't know. Okay. Look, if they play a game tomorrow, the only guy they have, right?

The only other quarterback on the roster is Alex Smith, and, you know, who the heck knows if he'll ever be cleared to play again. Obviously, he says he's striving to get back on the field. So the question will be, well, they bring in a backup. Are they bringing in sort of a Colt McCoy-type backup who literally is just the backup, or are they bringing in sort of Aldovese's Marriota as a name, you know, somebody who has significant starting experience, who maybe, you know, you can get on the cheap, but, you know, you could arguably see being somebody who could in like a sort of a way compete, kind of.

I don't think it's out of the question that the Redskins could view it in that second way. I don't think it's a lot. On the flip side, you know, it would be borderline nuts. I mean, this is the whole thing always. This is part of why the whole Wayne Haskins thing with Hed with Gruden was nuts. It wasn't just that Jay Gruden sort of got hosed with. the whole situation. But now you're bringing in another coach who is saddled to this guy. If Rivera decides, Haskins isn't for me, well, you know, that's a problem.

Now you have this kid with a first round pick. You know, if you trade them, you're not going to get full value for what you've got. If you keep them and you bring in other people to compete now that's the whole other thing. So, again, don't you think that's something, though, Ben, don't you think that's something that Ron Rivera during, you know, that time that they initially met with Gibbs and Snyder in early December, and the time that he took the job formally. Don't you think he did all that work and made his decision in part because his vision is in line with the owners that Dwayne Haskins is the quarterback of

the future and maybe he wouldn't have taken this job? I mean, he could have taken this job with the understanding from Snyder that he can do whatever he wants with the quarterback or he's not sold completely yet on the quarterback. But part of me thinks that he did his due diligence on Haskins. He did a lot of – you can't do it all until you've worked with this kid every day. I understand he could change his mind. Yeah, I guess I just would say that, like, again, logically, Dwayne Haskins is a starting quarterback,

logically Ron Rivera looked at the situation and thoughts himself, okay, if I accept this job, you know, at least next season at a minimum, I've got this kid and we'll have to work and put enough around him to make this work. Not only did they bring in Scott Turner, they brought in the MPI, you know, longtime assistant coach who's known for working with young quarterback, Baker, Mayfield, and others. So there are, you know, obviously already doing the thing that you would want to help a kid like Haskins.

So the logic would be that. I would just say, like, you know, it is part of it up to Haskins as well. He has to do more than I think at times some people thought he was doing. And maybe for Ron Rivera, you know, I think right now he's very much, I'm not going to feel like sort of what you were saying before about how people come in and they want to immediately start saying, we're going to be this, we're going to be that. I think he is trying to be like, well, look, I like what we have.

I like Dwayne Haskins. We'll see. And maybe, you know, it is possible. I'm viewing it up, taking it too literally. But at the same point, I don't think it would stun me if Dwayne Haskins isn't a starter, but at the same point, it wouldn't stun me if Rivera brings in somebody who we might be like, huh, really, okay, you bring in that guy. Well, that's interesting.

Maybe it's not inconceivable. that that guy gets in the lineup of Haskins doesn't do what they want. So likely as Haskins, they're setting it up to be Haskins. Again, all kinds of points to be Haskins, but I'm not 100% saying that Ron Rivera is. And look, as we always talk about, there's only 32 of these jobs, and this one, forget the quarterback. The owner said to the coach, we're going to build this around you. Regardless to who the quarterback is, that's a fantastic opportunity. So whether it was Wayne Haskins,

Vintage Peyton Manning, or you know, John Beck, you're not turning down the opportunity to take this job based on that. The quarterback is a key for, of course, we get this, but you can figure that out later. You can't get every owner in the league to say you're the guy in charge, we're going to build around you.

Is it inconceivable to think that the Bengals would pass on Joe Burrow? That seems like, I mean, I know like leading sort of toward the end of the season and going in towards going into the college playoffs. You know, you heard some things about not everybody is convinced that

that Joe Burroughs, you know, a high-end NFL quarterback and all that. Man, it is really hard to comprehend. I mean, not only did he put up, you know, record-breaking season statistically, he's from Ohio. Like, I remember how the Bengals, you know, a team that could use a PR boost

and all that, not to mention a quarterback, how they would pass on him, of course. You know, again, it goes back to the Chase Young thing. decide, you know, they do have the first pick in the second round. This is a year where there's like four or five quarterbacks who seem to be borderline first round picks if they decide we think we'll get one of those guys in a round two. We don't think those, we think those guys are reasonable, but Chase Young is outrageous. But, I mean, again, I would be stunned at this point based on, you know, maybe this is a

reason he biased, but holy moly, Joe Burrow was, you know, so good. You know, and again, the Ohio connection, I just would be stunned if they didn't pick him. All right. Looking forward to your first NFL mock. When is that due? Good question. I don't know. I'm going to the Senior Bowl. I've never been before going to that. So that'll be a new experience. So I don't know if I'll have one before then, certainly after. And, you know, we'll see. excited to hit across Alabama off the state list and, you know, talk to people around the league and get a sense what they think of this class. and obviously what the Redskins are going to do. And, you know, Chase Young is the lock pick of the decade like people think you.

Thank you. As always, Ben, Ben Standing. He does a great job. I'm telling you it's worth the subscription to the athletic just to read Ben. He's clued in everything Redskins. He's always, you know, on the either breaking stories or certainly right there on the forefront, on the verge of doing it. I appreciate it, as always.

to you soon. Yeah. Ben standing, everybody, the athletic. All right, on tomorrow's show, we will spend time. Tommy will be on the show tomorrow. We'll talk and preview both championship games. And if you want to wager on those games and you don't have a place to do so, my bookie.ag.

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