The Kevin Sheehan Show - Josh Norman Gone

Episode Date: February 14, 2020

Kevin opened with the news that the Redskins are releasing Josh Norman. JP Finlay/NBC Sports Washington was a guest to discuss Norman, Quinton Dunbar, Trent Williams and more. Kevin and Aaron talked about the Matthew McConaughey/Dan Snyder "Happy Thanksgiving" video. The guys finished up previewing Maryland-Michigan State. <p> </p><p>Learn more about your ad choices. Visit <a href="https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices">podcastchoices.com/adchoices</a></p> Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You want it. You need it. It's what everyone's talking about. The Kevin Sheehan Show. Now here's Kevin. I'm here. Aaron's here. J.P. Finley from NBC Sports, Washington will join us in about 10 minutes. There was breaking Redskins news late this morning at the end of the radio show and right before we started recording the podcast. And the news is that Josh Norman is going to be released by the Redskins Mike Garifolo from NFL Network. reported it, and then Diana Rusini from ESPN confirmed it and said that Ron Rivera is going to reach out to talk to Josh Norman, the implication there being that perhaps Norman's days in Washington aren't completely over. His days in Washington under the contract that he signed are over. He's not going to earn $12.5 million in 2020 being a Redskins cornerback. We all knew that that was coming. I mean, that was hardly news to all of us that followed the team. There was no way they weren't going to take the roughly $9 million in cap savings by releasing him.

But given that his best success came with Ron Rivera in Carolina, it's not surprising and wouldn't be surprising to me and wouldn't be a repulsive notion to me if Ron Rivera decided, hey, I want to be. you Josh Norman on this team. We just can't pay you 12.5 million bucks. We need a team friendly deal. If you don't get a team friendly, if you don't get a lot of guaranteed money in a big time deal elsewhere, we'd be interested in having you back. John Kime wrote a story just moments ago, and he had talked to Josh Norman, and Norman said, it's their choice, not mine. Now I can start something new and fresh. That was the quote. in the John Kimes story, I would certainly think that Josh Norman's going to go out there to see what's out there, to see if there's a team that wants to give him a guaranteed deal for a couple of years for decent money

for a guy that hasn't played well recently and who is 32 years old, you know, and needs a certain scheme. Like, I don't know that Josh Norman is the guy that you just bring in and you say, hey, we can play him in man, we can play him in zone, we can play him outside, we can play him inside. he's not that versatile. We've seen that over the last several years with Josh Norman being in Washington. And, you know, typical, per usual with this organization, they didn't coach around the talent they had.

They tried to squeeze square pegs into round holes. Josh Norman is a better zone corner than he is a man corner. Josh Norman is better facing the action rather than turning his back to the action. Josh Norman is not super fast. He anticipates well. He is smart, but he is better in sort of seeing everything evolve in front of him in zone coverage than he is in man coverage. He's not a guy that should be traveling, you know, with air quotes around it, with the number one receiver on the opposing team.

That's not what he is good at, and yet at times they had him in that position. You know, I've, in thinking about Josh Norman now that he may be completely done, although again, I would not be repulsed nor upset if they brought him back on a team-friendly deal in a better scheme that fits him. In part because the one thing to me that Josh Norman's always been pretty good at, he's always been a willing tackler. You know, there are a lot of corners that don't want to come up and tackle. And I think Josh Norman has been that guy. I mean, take this season and toss it because, you know, we got to the middle towards the end of the season when they had no intention of really playing him. But yet he was active. It was the strangest thing.

It was almost as if they wanted to pay him for being active because he had some sort of bonus in his contract that said if he was on the final active game day roster, he made a certain amount of money. I forget what it was now. And for whatever reason, maybe they felt they owed it to him. I don't know. And remember, he was active, but was a lot. and then was forced to get into a game against the Eagles, right? It was the Eagles game that he got into and he gave up the touchdown pass? Yeah, I think that's right.

Yeah. And you could tell that he was not an interested participant there at the end of the year. So take, you know, at least half of this season and toss it to the side. You know, if you think about Josh Norman and Washington, the one thing I will say about him that I feel strongly about is he was a physical player. He was a willing participant as a tackler. and he tried to make plays as a tackler. You know, he was consistently going for the hit, the good tackle,

but the simultaneous punchout of the football. He had multiple forced fumbles in those first couple of years here. But obviously, in the scheme that Greg Minusky had and Joe Barry had before, wasn't perfect for him. You know, typical of the Redskins. Bruce Allen goes out, gets excited, signs one of the, his big, you know, big name, big money deals, and it's not a good fit for the defensive scheme they have. Well, Ron Rivera knows what Josh Norman can do and what he can't do and whether

or not they'll have a scheme that will fit him or not. So if Ron Rivera goes out and says, we're interested in having you back on a one-year deal with maybe a team option for a second, you know, at a team-friendly number, then I'm going to, I'll be all in on that because I'll believe that Ron Rivera thinks he can get something out of Josh Norman here in his later years. No one knows him better than he does, and nobody's been better at putting together a defensive scheme in this building in a long, long time than Ron Rivera in Jack Del Rio. So we'll talk to J.P. Finley about this in more detail here momentarily. If you miss the radio show this morning, again, I urge you 7 to 10 a.m., the team 980, the team 980.com, the team 980 app. You can listen to my radio show.

You can stream it. You can certainly listen to it on the app as well. And listen to it on 95.9 FM. We've got an FM signal in town now as well. I had Tom Izzo on the show, who has always been one of my favorite college basketball coaches. I don't know that I told him that. I think I told him that once before.

He's been on the show, I think three times over the years. I think he was first on the show when Maryland went into the Big Ten. And anyway, he was really good. You can listen to that if you'd like. He said in his 37 years of being in the Big Ten Aaron, the league has never been better than this year. That this is the best it's ever been top to bottom,

that it's crazy. You know, I don't know, and I said this to him, I don't know that he answered it or not. It wasn't a question. It was leading into a question. I don't know that Michigan State, in a long, long time has lost three consecutive conference games, which they just went through, you know, losing to Wisconsin, Penn State, Michigan before beating Illinois the other night?

They had never lost four in a row, I believe. Okay. At least not in a long, long time. I mean, he's been so good there, and you know what he's always been good at? I mean, everybody who's a college basketball fan knows. You know, Tom is those teams in November and December don't even pay attention. It doesn't mean anything because his teams, get better, and are always playing their best basketball in February and in March.

And it's why they've gone to so many final fours and they've gotten into so many tournaments. I mean, he's turned Michigan. Judd Heathcote had done a great job at Michigan State. Won a national championship with Magic Johnson, you know, and Greg Kelser, that team that won the national championship over Larry Bird's Indiana State team in 1979. When he took over the program, you know, he was replacing a legend in he. Heathcote, and he's become a bigger legend at this school. He's won like nobody's ever won there. Been to so many Final Fours, has won a national championship, is one of the winningest coaches of all time, and has always put together a team that for me, I've always enjoyed watching.

And I know I didn't tell him this because I would have been embarrassed to tell him this, but the most recent team that I coached, Aaron, it was my youngest son's team. And it was sort of an AAU slash travel team had these kids together from third grade through high school. We were called the Spartans. We were the Bethesda Spartans. Now you guys can laugh out there and say, oh, a bunch of suburban white kids. We were pretty good. We actually had a pretty good team, and we had some good, you know, some really good

shooters on the team. And we competed with some really good teams over the years and had a lot of fun. but I remember giving sort of the kids at a young age sort of the option of a couple of team names, but really push Spartans on them because I've always been the biggest Izzo fan, and I love the way Michigan State plays. I love the way they defend. I love the way they rebound. I love the physical nature of his teams over the years.

They've always been the tougher team than their opponent, almost always. He's a great coach. I'd urge you to listen to that. he was great, talked about a lot of things that really didn't have anything to do with basketball. He got very upset recently about some criticism of his players on Twitter. He basically said he hates social media more than anything in the world, basically. But anyway, eight final fours. It's not bad, even though it's resulted in just one national championship in 2000.

Going to the final four eight times as a head coach is pretty damn. impressive. Anyway, we'll get to the Michigan State Maryland game in more detail a little bit later on. Real quickly about mybooky.ag. If you're looking for a place to wager on sports, and we've got March Madness right around the corner, and maybe you're into the XFL and you want to bet on sports, my bookie offers you the most up-to-date odds and quality ways to bet. Also, quantity when it comes to wagering opportunities, straight bets, parlays, teasers, any sort of in-game action, any sort of futures bet that you want to look at, mybooky.ag has it. If you want to sign up with mybooky.orgie.orgie right now, do so and use my promo code, Kevin, DC, for their latest offer. It's mybooky.orgie.org

promo code Kevin D.C. All right, let's bring in J.P. Finley from NBC Sports Washington, who's joining us on the podcast, listen to his Redskin Talk podcast as well. He's doing a great job with that. Let's start with just the breaking news of this morning. It's not a surprise, obviously, for people like you and me that Josh Norman is going to be released. I think it's a bit of a surprise to some. I think maybe we've even talked about it, though, the possibility that Ron Rivera might want him back. And that's what Diana Rusini sort of implied with a tweet,

is that Ron Rivera is going to talk to Josh Norman, you know, after the release. The release is not a surprise. We don't have to spend a lot of time on that. What do you think the chances are that Josh Norman would come back to Washington on some sort of team-friendly deal? Maybe. I wouldn't rule it out. But I think it would make way more sense.

him to go to either of the LA teams. I mean, both are contending teams. I think he always talked about wanting to play in the playoffs, championship football. That's what he's about, you know, before he came to Washington, he got to the Super Bowl with the Panthers. Even his tweak in the time since he was released said, now let's go win this chip, you're not competing for a championship in Washington this year. You just aren't.

I don't know that football is still a high enough priority for Josh for him to play on a rebuilding team. I think he still loves the game, but I think his interest and what he cares about are so much more vast now than they were in 2015 when he signed here that he's going to consider a lot of other things. I'll tell you what, Kevin, if you want to talk about a former Redskinned cornerback that I think if you make a lot of sense to come back, it would be the Shaw Breeland. Think about it. The Panthers signed Breeland before he hurt his foot. Ron Rivera signed Greenland before he hurt his foot. I think

regularly, I think Breeland's better. I think he'll be, or I think they would have been better off. If you go back in time now, when they sign Norman and Breland, you know, kind of lost his status as the top corner. That's when a lot of things started to get a little troubled in that secondary. And, I mean, it's revisionist history now. But couldn't get Ron saying he wants to meet with Norman because Ron does thing.

He always takes the high road. He's known Josh a long time. I just, if Josh Norman, I don't know what the marketplace is going to look like for your services at this point, frankly. and wouldn't he want to be somewhere where he, the fans here have turned on him. Like, I posted on my Facebook page that he was released, and the overwhelming response was good, good riddened get out of here. I don't think he wants to come back and deal with that.

Like, if he goes to the Rams, who are a contending team, potentially, and I think he's going to have to sign, like, a one-year incentive deal. In his agent, they'll be able to spin it as a one-year, $10 million deal. but I'll be very, very curious to see what's actually guaranteed. Yeah, I know that's the reaction, and I saw it too on social media when I just retweeted the Garifolo report, I think, earlier this morning. But, you know, fans don't know what we don't know. That position's an odd position.

You know, anywhere in the secondary tends to be sort of a scheme dependent for a lot of guys' driven result. You know, we know watching Josh Norman over the last few years, you know, he's not a number one travel with the best, you know, receiver on the other team man cover guy. It's not what he was, even though he was asked to do a lot of that. He's probably better suited for a team that plays more zone with a pass rush, you know, facing the quarterback, facing the action because he anticipates well, he prepares well, he's smart, you know, all of those things. He's ball skills. Ball skills. And I think he still has those.

but the speed and the reaction time, you're right. Like, that was never his strength. And you got to, and a lot of that kept, I'm sorry, I interrupted you. No, it's fine.

A lot of that is an indictment on the former staff and the former mindset to not play guys to their strengths. And we saw that, like, what's the point of making Norman

the highest-paid corner in the NFL if you're not going to let him do what he does best? And they never did that. And I'll never understand it, honestly. Well, I mean, think about the origin. of two deals in particular. Actually three, if you want to go back to Donovan McNabb. But Josh

Norman, Alex Smith in recent years were two of the big deals that Bruce Allen initiated. Because remember, this was a guy that lived on bargain deals for subpar players. Like, hey, look at the contract we got for this, a very average player. The Redskins were the opposite of what they were from 2000 to 2009 before Bruce got here. It wasn't any better this way, but the two big, signings that he went out and made noise with were total misfits. You know, Josh Norman didn't fit the defensive scheme that Barry or ultimately Greg Minnowski was coaching, and Alex Smith wasn't a good fit for Jay Gruden's scheme. You know, so it was sort of ill-conceived from the beginning, but my point on Norman is

this. It would not upset me if Ron Rivera said, I know what this guy is, I know how to get the most out of him. He's a veteran. He's smart. He's got ball skills. By the way, the thing that I've always liked about Norman, he's always been a willing tackler, you know, for a corner, and a bit of a playmaker is a tackler as well. And if Rivera, as a fan of the team, if Rivera said, no, no, no, I know how to play him. I know how to put him in positions where he can succeed. And if he doesn't get a big deal with guaranteed money elsewhere, we'd be happy to have him back on, you know, a one-year-old. one to two year deal, maybe a second year option, team option for team friendly money,

because A, we don't have any corners or we have very few, and B, I know what he is, and I can make it work. That wouldn't bother me. No, I don't think it would, it shouldn't bother people. But I'll say this, Ron Rivera has now been the head coach of two teams that have let Josh Norman go. And as much as he might want to have a meeting with him, I don't know. Like, Rahan has now done this twice in two different cities. Right. So I don't know that I see it happening.

Well, they did franchise him to keep him, and they ultimately rescinded the franchise tag when they got the sense that he may not want to play on the franchise tag. And, you know, they were a bit of a no-nonsense organization with Rivera, a big part of that. And it's one of the things I'm looking forward to here. Hopefully it plays out the same way here. But you're right.

Ultimately, they did let him go. Yeah, and with Josh, he said no nonsense. With Josh, there is a certain amount of nonsense. And that's kind of the quarterback position. Like, that's, you know, a lot of ways who these guys are. But I don't know. I just think you're trying to rebuild and you've got to, let's add this through the pile. He was bad last year.

Like, he was bad. He got benched some Cody since the ball. Like, I think that's. a part of this story that we're going to kind of gloss over because everyone was so bad and the team was bad and everything needs a total overall. But I'm not sure what Josh had left either. Yeah, I mean, you might be right. You might be right. Maybe he's got nothing left.

I guess, and you're also right. He was bad last year, especially when he was forced to go into a game that they didn't anticipate him playing against the Eagles. Because it was, you know, that whole thing at the end of the year. where he was active, but they had no intention of playing him until that one game against the Eagles where everybody started to go down and he was forced to go in the game. But I guess one of the reasons I'm even considering this was just that Diana's tweet indicated that Rivera is going to talk to him. And I had said, I think, on the radio show maybe two, three weeks ago, that it wouldn't

shock me if Rivera, you know, brought Norman back on some sort of one-year incentive team-friendly deal. And if that were to happen, I would trust it, you know, because nobody's going to know him better than Rivera. I think it's also possible Ron just wants to talk with him and say, listen, no hard feelings. I, like, Josh is totally really highly of Ron. I don't know that Ron wanting to talk to him means Ron wants to bring him back. I don't know. It could. I just, to me, I think that ship has failed. I could be wrong, too. All right. The Quentin Dunbar thing, you know, was initially, you know, you were a part of the reporting on Dunbar. You got the quote from him about him wanting to be traded or released. Doc had a conversation. Obviously,

he backed off his comments to you a little bit. How do you think this, what's the result of this? The team doesn't have a cornerback without Quentin Dunbar right now. They'd have to add a lot of players at that position if he's not playing on this, Rock. or next year? Yeah, I think Dunbar kind of just wanted to back off a little bit of what he said. I think he was having an emotional response to not

being contacted by the new staff. He's underpaid. He has no guaranteed money on his deal. I mean, quite honestly, he probably signed a bad deal in 2018, but he had never made any money, and they put a little money in his face, so he was going to take it, right? I mean, he was

an undrafted guy, stacked against undrafting guys that he could have played the year on a RFA tender. Instead, he decided to take the contract extension. I think one of Ron's biggest skills that he has celebrated for is his ability to speak to and relate to players, and I think that's just going to change the dynamic with Clinton. I think they might have to guarantee some money for him. I think Clinton and Trent are kind of similar situations, just with much. much bigger price tags. I think both of those guys are probably focused on free agency in 2021.

Both guys have one year left on their deal with no guaranteed money. And I think the organization can appease both players by guaranteeing some of the cash that's in their deal. If I was Ron, or if I was the organization, I would have some sort of handshake agreement that, hey, if I'm going to guarantee this, I want you at every voluntary work. out, I want to see you as a part of this rebuild all in on the team. And that'll be interesting to see if that kind of thing happens. We'll kind of have to wait and see because I think, I think Quentin's frustrations are understandable if you look at it from his side of things.

But if you're the team and it's a valuable asset to have a starting corner that is, when he's healthy, he's pretty damn good at $3 million. I don't think the team would really offer to move that asset. It would be one thing if he had, if it was last year and he wanted to be traded when there's two years left on a deal, but at this point with one year left on a deal, I don't know what people would offer in a trade for Dunbar. He's going to play here, I think. It's just a matter of trying to figure that out, how you make it work.

You know, you said something about the deal that he signed in 2018. That's interesting to me, because you're right, the team, and they did it a little bit with Jordan Reed to a certain extent where they were ahead of things a little bit. Initially, one of the Ryan Carrigan early deals, they were ahead of it a little bit. It's just so funny because they did get a really good deal on a player that was sort of emerging,

hadn't made money yet, a lot of money yet, sort of took advantage with some vision and signed him to a deal that really worked for the team. And for him, he was in that position where he hadn't, as you mentioned, hadn't earned a big, massive paycheck yet, and they took advantage of that. And yet, at the most important position on the field, they didn't have any vision after the 2015 season to lock up a quarterback whose contract would have been barely in the top half two years later. It's amazing to me. But that also, you know, that also speaks.

The difference is also paying top of market dollars or somewhere near market rate, which they would have had to for Kirk. versus, I mean, you talked about it a couple minutes ago that Bruce loved his bargains and pride in himself on that. And the Dunbar thing was a bargain. Whereas Kirk, even back in 2015, they probably would have had to go to what would Kirk have wanted. I can't even remember that. It was going to be, it was somewhere in the, it would have turned out to be somewhere in the neighborhood of 45 to 50 guaranteed. You know, somewhere around, you know, 18 to 19 somewhere per year, which would have two years later barely been in the top half. of the league in quarterback salaries.

I love you, and I love that we're talking about Kirk County. I know. I know. I know. As the, Sheen always turns it back to Kirk somehow. I can't wait until I get the tweets after this one. Kevin Sheen is God on Twitter. Oh, God. I don't even know who that is, but, you know, I thank him. I appreciate that. That's very nice. I said this. I don't know if you heard me. Did you see Galdi's tweet about Norman? No. It was so cold-blooded. It was.

It was video of Norman getting towards that TV against the Eagles that you mentioned. And Al said, Josh Norman's last parting gift for Redskins fans got us, Chase Yel. Oh, wait, what was the end of that? Because losing that game got him the number two. Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes, of course, right. So what did he do? He hashtaged Chase Young? Yeah, Josh Norman's final gift to us as Redskins fans, hashtag Chase Young.

That's a good one. That's true. I mean, it's totally true. And they were doing their best to win the game. But maybe at the end, they did put in Josh Norman so that they could lose it. I think somebody was hurt. Yeah, a lot of them got hurt. They didn't want to play them in that game.

So let's get to Trent Williams, because you mentioned something earlier, too. You said that Trent Williams and, you know, in the discussion about Quentin Dunbar, that they both probably want to get to unrestricted free agency. Trent does in 2021. How does he get there in 2021 if he, with, without playing two consecutive years if it goes that way, versus staying and playing on an extended deal? I think Trent plays the last year of his deal in 2020 with the Redskins.

I mean, with the years he's accrued in the NFL, his contract becomes fully vested if he shows up for week one. So why wouldn't the Redkins just guarantee X amount of that to make him happy? I mean, with Trent, the organization can really send a signal that things are different and that it's not petty and vindictive anymore by kind of meeting the player halfway. And if I had to guess, I don't think Trent is looking for a contract extension here. I mean, maybe he is. Maybe he wants that stability. But like, you're a year away from free agency with what will be a higher salary cap.

It's about to be a new CBA where players, you know, maybe. get a bigger 1% more of the revenue pie. I mean, who knows what's going to happen. If Trent's willing to sit out a year like he's already shown, I think he'd be crazy not to play this year and go to free agents. And let me say that my response to that would be from a team perspective, it would be crazy to have him play 2020 on his last year of the deal. when now you're going to risk losing him in 2021 to unrestricted free agency, I'd either extend him or trade him. It's either or from the team's perspective.

If I'm the team, I'm either trading him and trying to get as much as I can get for him now or I am extending him. I'm not letting him play one year at, you know, 12, 14 million bucks, whatever it is, and then leave me after 2020. I think that's fair too. a trade would make sense. And maybe an extension makes sense. Maybe all parties would be into that.

I don't know. But I think, I don't know what Trent's trade value is. The time to trade Trent was last year, was last August. Of course. When there were offers on the table. And what happened in the Trent situation last year was legitimate organizational malpractice. It was so, so short-sighted and dumb.

But this year, I mean, if you get a third for Trent, or would you rather have Trent for a year to protect Duane and make your offense start to look better? And maybe Jared Christian learns from them. I don't, like, I get that you always want to be looking towards the future, and that's the right mindset. But you also want to win some games, and maybe Ron wants to, if Ron can go from 3 and 10 to 7 and 9,

maybe he really thinks that could springboard him to 2021, where they make a real jump. I don't know. But, you know, like, you can't always say, oh, to keep this guy and let him play one year as dumb, because that one year is important. Well, I wouldn't say that about everybody. I would say that about him because he's made it very clear how he feels, and he may feel differently now. But his goal is to eventually. Yeah, that's fair.

But still, he is, you know, much more likely to leave in 2021 as an unrestricted free agent than to stay versus most players. we might be having a conversation about. And of course things could change. You know, the relationship with Ron Rivera and the new coaching staff could be phenomenal. You know, so I, that's sort of, you know, something that we don't know now. Clearly, if it's a third,

and by the way, you're right to think that the compensation for him is going to be less than it would have been a year ago or last summer or early in the season or even right before the trade deadline in 2019. Because, A, he's only got one. year left on his deal and you're going to have to extend him. You may have had to do that last year anyway. And B, as we get closer to the draft, it's becoming more and more apparent that this is a draft loaded with tackles, you know, and several of them could go in the first round. So teams would

potentially wait to see what they get in the draft before they make a trade if it's going to be pricey. They really, it was malpractice of the highest order. They should be sitting here entering the April 2020 draft with an additional first round pick and perhaps even more. They should be, but they're not. Absolutely. Absolutely. They messed up, and that's why Bruce Allen's gone. I don't know that the Trent thing wasn't the final straw.

I think it was one of many final straws, but, like, yeah, it was a terrible, terrible decision and thought process. short-sighted and dumb. I know you have to go, but I just want to ask you this. What's next? I think Jordan Reed, a decision on that's got to be coming next, right? Or am I forgetting something else? I think Paul Richardson is an easy one. I think that comes quicker.

The Reed one, you got to, I don't know. I don't know his contract structure, but there's some contracts have caveats about guaranteed for injury, money guaranteed for injury. Yeah, right. and he could be sitting on something like that. He also might be, I don't know, I mean, I don't know how close he ever got to being cleared last year by even out of the protocol. And there might be some type of machination where a player in the protocol can't be released.

I just, I think people think the read thing is more cut and dry than it is. Okay. That's good to know. I mean, you know, there was. I don't know that, Kev, but I just think it could be more complex. So I don't know if I've said this on the podcast or the radio show, and I have no idea if you reported it at any point or have mentioned it on your podcast or anything else. There was that one part of the season. I don't know if you were hearing some of the same things or not.

I was hearing not necessarily a terrific source necessarily, but some conversation that Jordan definitely could have been cleared to play, but really was sort of hesitant to come back. And by the way, I'm not blaming him after all of those concussions. But I'm wondering if you heard anything similar to that. You know, I did not hear that. And I don't want to say I kind of heard the opposite, but I'll tell you this. I saw Jordan working out throughout the year, like, well into the fall, well into the probably into November. And, you know, he was working out like a guy trying to get back on the field.

So I don't know on that one. If he was hesitant to come back after all the concussions, I wouldn't blame him. He's got a young family. I feel the same way too, yes. Knowing him, knowing Jordan a little bit, that is a dude has a warrior mindset, and I wouldn't expect that to be the case, but it also wouldn't shock me if this, you know, that blow to the head in Atlanta last year in the preseason kind of changed his mind. I don't know.

Well, you know, with, I mean, I'm not intentionally speculating. I did not. These were things that, you know, like you and me and others, we hear things all the time, and that was something that was circulating there for a while that I don't think I ever brought to the air because it wasn't really substantiated. But, you know, putting speculation to the side, was he ever officially cleared? So you're saying you don't think he was ever cleared from the concussion protocol? I don't know, but I don't think so. I don't know. I don't know either. I don't know either. But to your point...

The problem is not the right word, but we're not allowed to ask questions. Like, once somebody's in the protocol, we're not allowed. Like, you can ask for an update, but they don't have to provide anything because it's a mysterious protocol. That's right. And then, I mean, he was placed on IR week eight or something. He didn't get placed on IR right away. Maybe it was earlier than that. I'd have to go back and check, but it's not like they don't send out a press release when somebody's cleared from the protocol.

No, you're right about that. Yeah, no, I know exactly what you're saying. And to your earlier point, it could be, you know, it could be sort of complicated with respect to his contract if he hasn't been cleared. And if dollars were guaranteed for injury, which they usually are for a player of his caliber. And trying to figure out a way that if he's not going to play football again to sort of get him what he's owed without having be, you know, sort of punitive from a cap standpoint. It'll be tricky. One of the first challenges for Rob Rogers, I'm sure. I know you got to run.

I appreciate the time. I'll talk to you soon. Thanks, God. Take care, man. All right, J.P. Finley, everybody. That Redskins talk podcast is another Redskins-related podcast. You've got to listen to. And, of course, follow him on Twitter at J.P. Finley, NBCS.

All right, thanks to J.P. for jumping on with us. So this morning, Aaron, woke up and, there were, you know, several sort of messages on Twitter. Have you seen this? Have you seen this? And it was this video that's sort of borderline gone, you know, viral from Matthew McConaughey of Matthew McConaughey and Dan Snyder together at the Super Bowl. And he, most of you know this, Matthew McConaughey is a redskin fan. He went to Texas, grew up in Texas, went to UT, huge Longhorns fan and everything. and he's always on the sideline for the big Texas games.

But he's, for whatever reason, he was always a Redskin fan. And he's been to many Redskin games over the years. And he's seen him occasionally with Dan Snyder or Bruce Allen or somebody else on the sidelines before a game. But a big Redskin fan. So he and Dan Snyder were together in a suite during the Super Bowl 11 days ago or whatever it was. And they produced this very. short, you know, 11 to 12-second video. The first voice, you're going to hear both McConaughey and Snyder talking, but it ends with McConaughey saying happy Thanksgiving, and I'll describe

what happened after that after you listen to it. Here at the Super Bowl with Matthew. Dave Snyder under the Redskins. What do we say to that? All right, all right, all right. Happy Thanksgiving, Paddick. So he says Matthew McConae and McConnor says, I'm here with Dan Snyder, and Snyder says, all right, all right, all right. And then Matthew McConaughey says, happy Thanksgiving, and they put their arms around each other and laugh it off and walk off. So this is making the rounds.

I mean, like, you know, thousands of likes of this tweeted video, you know, hundreds of retweets, etc, et cetera, et cetera. So I get, you know, I got a, when people sent this to me this morning, there was, wow, Snyder looks like a normal human being, or wow, what a dork, and how disingenuous. Nobody can sort of agree on this video. Couple things. Number one, first of all, if I haven't told this story,

or you never heard Cooley tell the story, because he told the story on the air, one game many, I don't know, three, four, five, six years ago. McConaughey was in the booth before the game. I think it was before the game or maybe he came in at halftime, whatever. And Cooley, you know, went over to him and say, hey, Matt, Chris Cooley. And McConaughey looked at Cooley and said, it's Matthew. Very seriously, Cooley described it.

Like, I am not Matt. I'm Matthew. and you even heard Dan Snyder say here with Matthew McConaughey. So just in case you ever run into Matthew McConaughey and you want to talk ball, you want to talk Redskins with him, make sure you address him as Matthew. Matthew addresses Snyder as Dan, not Mr. Snyder, but he doesn't work for Mr. Snyder. So that's understandable. Was this like a moment of self-deprecation for Snyder?

I don't know. These kinds of things don't hurt him, though. You know, it is, you know, by definition, with the happy Thanksgiving there at the end and then putting their arms around each other and laughing it off. There's some self-deprecation there, you know, and it makes him look better. It's not like this huge reveal, you know. It certainly wasn't that funny. But for those of you that still have this idea that it was some sort of inside joke,

when he said happy Thanksgiving, what he meant to say, Happy New Year's, that the inside joke having something to do with the Redskins beating the Panthers, Ron Rivera's team on Thanksgiving weekend,

which led to Ron Rivera being fired, it was not an inside joke. Does anyone still think that? Yeah, I think some people do. Man. And it's fine because the PR people tried to spin it that way, and some people bought it.

And, you know, it actually was a, you know, it was a nice attempt, you know, at spinning something, you know, very awkward and, unfortunately, into something that might have been intentional. But it wasn't. I know that for a fact.

And I'm not critical of it. I've got the same view on it that I had when I heard it that day. I've empathy. I've empathy. You know, I mean, my God. I mean, we've known for years that, you know, this owner has been in part reclusive and part he's kept Bruce Allen because he doesn't and isn't comfortable in his own skin in front of a large group of people and a microphone, you know, on a podium.

I mean, that's not his thing. You know, it's not the thing for most people. You know, public speaking, fear of public speaking is the number one phobia for most people in this country. So it's not unusual. And that is not, you know, public speaking anxiety does not like pick and choose based on your income or your net worth. Okay. So maybe he's got a better ability to sort of. to seek out help to help him with it than others.

You know, and I suggested he should medicate, you know, before he goes out and does those things. But whatever. I felt sorry for him that day. And I didn't want to, and we didn't play that over and over and over again like other shows. I'm not trying to, you know, be, you know, holier than now because I've ripped him plenty of times, as most of you know. And I'm not, but trust me, I'm not being disingenuous when I say that I actually had empathy for him that day. that I felt for him because I knew it was uncomfortable. I knew it was going to be uncomfortable before that day started.

I knew it was for him. And to come out and to start it with Happy Thanksgiving, I mean, my God, it couldn't have gone any worse. But anyway, it led me to thinking about this. And I did this on the radio show this morning. Like, is there anything this person could do, Dan Snyder? to change the opinion that people have of him. Like anything.

You know, the backdrop of this is that he is viewed in a way that's not polarizing. It's totally one-sided. The significant majority, the overwhelming majority of Washingtonians, sports fans, non-sports fans, redskinned fans, non-redskinned fans, is that they do not like this person. Redskine fans despise him overwhelmingly. He is without much debate, and you can hit me with who you would put in the same class.

In terms of figures in the history of this city that aren't political, he's the most despised person in the history of this town that isn't a politician. Give me another one. I mean, I've given you in the past John Wilkes Booth. He's from the area. But, I mean, seriously. And it's because of what he is professionally, more than anything else.

I can't speak to what he is personally. I don't know him. You know, I've heard stories from people who have had dealings with him, you know, outside of football or with respect to tickets or sweets or I've heard a lot of stories. And overwhelmingly, those stories have been negative. Okay, they have been. But I don't have a personal experience to speak to. So it's hard for me to personally attack him.

because I don't have a personal experience, but it's easy for all of us to professionally criticize what he's done to something that was so sacred. You know, we had something here for a long period of time, if you're of a certain age, my age, older and, you know, younger to a certain degree by 10, 15, 20 years. You know, essentially, if you are over, if you're 30 or older, You're old enough to have lived, you know, with awareness of this franchise when it was viewed as one of the best franchises in all of sport.

Not just the NFL, all of sports. Winner, champion, class act, led by people that were incredibly likable like Joe Gibbs and Bobby Bethard and Charlie Casserly and, you know, characters and players like. like John Riggins and Daryl Green and Art Monk and the hogs and all of that. I mean, it was, you know, we talked about the XFL earlier in the week. It was a habit. It was a passion habit. Like, you know, you couldn't wait for Sundays. You couldn't wait for fall.

You couldn't wait for the next game. It was a source of incredible joy most of the time. But even if it wasn't, you were dedicated, you were influenced, you were impacted by it. You know, there were real emotions tied to it. And the last two decades have sucked the life out of it for a lot of you. And me, to a certain extent, it has. I'm not the same fan that I used to be. I'm not.

You know, it's been incredibly difficult to, you know, continue to have the same level of interest and passion in this team. I think if I didn't do what I'd do for a living, I'd have even less interest and be where a lot of my friends are to a certain degree. Now, I was always probably borderline crazy loyal and crazy into it. And I'll admit, I mean, they start winning and winning big and winning with more sort of a functioning at a high-level organization. I'm back in, and I can set aside what I think about the. owner professionally and just root for the players and the coaches that I might end up liking. But he took something in two decades and he ruined it. I mean, there's no doubt who is most responsible for something that we took so much pleasure

from. He ruined it. Completely ruined it over the last two decades. And so I wonder whether or not there's any chance. that people would ever feel differently about him. I think most won't. I think some will just try to ignore the fact that he's the owner if they have success. But I wonder if there's any chance that he could repair his image and repair the, you know,

and change the narrative on him, which is despised overwhelmingly to somehow tolerate it. I won't say light or loved. That seems to be completely out of the realm of possibility, but perhaps tolerated, you know, somewhere down the road. I mean, Yankee fans had Steinbrenner, but they won. You know, there have been some bad owners in sports. You know, I mean, think about Nick fans, what they're going through right now. I was going to say James Dolan, as far as sports figures right now,

is the only one on Snyder's level. Yes, the owner, the only one on Snyder's level at this point. You know, Bill Bidwell, the longtime owner of the Cardinals, you know, Fans did not, bad ownership, you know, terrible ownership of that team for a long time. But I don't know that fans despised him or disliked him in the same way. You know, his son who runs the team now, Bill Bidwell, or whatever, his son is, is his son Bill? His son's not Bill. I forget what his son's name.

His son who's significantly involved in running the team now because Bill Bidwell. Bill Bidwell passed away last year or the year before. I believe Michael is the one. Michael is the one. Michael went to Georgetown Prep here locally. He's come back to the school and actually spoken on like, you know, Father Sun Night. I was there one year where he came back and spoke. So I don't know what the Cardinal family and fan base thinks of him.

But I don't, I think the best Dan Snyder could hope for is to continue to do things like this, you know, that come off as somewhat self-deprecating, admitting, you know, know his flaws. Being maybe more accessible, that's hard. I know it's hard for him and I don't expect him to be more accessible. I think Ron Rivera is going to be the voice of this organization for the most part for the next two to three years minimum. But maybe at some point he is tolerated. Of course, what would have to put people into the position of just tolerating him would be a winning football team, like sustained winner. You know, not one off. but, you know, a five, six, seven, eight-year run.

You know, something like what Seattle's gone through here over the last, you know, since Russell Wilson in 2012. You know, you've got to have that kind of a run, and then maybe he'll be tolerated at that point. But, you know, it's important for him to understand that his actions, as it relates to this organization, are the only chance he has to repair his image and repair and change the way people think of him. It's not just winning. It's winning in a way

that makes people proud. I mean, look, at this point, I'll just take the winning. I'll just take the winning and I don't care if I'm proud or not. But it's been so much more over the years than just the consistent losing. It's just been the things that they have done publicly that have been incredibly off-putting to most normal people. Normal, I guess is subjective. I will concede that point. Anyway, last thing I want to get to, after I remind you that we're available on all podcast platforms, we've got an app now. You can download the Kevin Sheehan Show app if you want to listen that way. Also, there's the Kevin Sheeonshow.com. But we have to, you know, quickly talk about what is right now the game of the year for our Terps tomorrow night at Michigan State. A week

ago tonight was the game of the year. You know, the game at Illinois that they went in and won after trailing by 14. But, you know, Michigan State's been the heavyweight in this league. You know, this league that Maryland is now in its sixth season in this league, right? Sixth season. Yes, I believe that's right. And they haven't beaten Michigan State since year one on the road at the Brezlin Center.

It's one of the most difficult places in the country to play. Obviously, it's because they've had great teams, but they also have a terrific home environment. It's the ESPN game day site tomorrow. It's a 6 p.m. tip. There will be a fired up student section, fired up crowd because they broke their three-game losing skid winning at Illinois the other night, 70 to 69. They blew a huge lead in that game, held on, won that game. This is always the time of year Tom Mizzow's teams put it together and start winning,

heading into the tournament. They're not ranked right now, which is really quite amazing, considering that they started the year is the top ranked team in the country. Michigan State with those three straight losses to Wisconsin, Penn State, and Michigan actually fell out of the top 25. With their win at Illinois, if they were to beat Maryland tomorrow, obviously they'll burst right back into it and probably, you know, into the top 20 easily, not just the top 25. But this is a huge opportunity for Maryland, Aaron. You know, they got bullied last year. They got beat up last year in that game at the Breslin Center. They've had a tough time with Michigan State in recent years. Last year, the game

at home was one-sided. They got out rebounded. They got, you know, defended, they got taken out of their game consistently throughout. It was an ugly game. I don't remember what the final score was. It was never really competitive in that game. I think they were down 12, 13 at the half, probably lost by 15 in that game. And it's been like that a little bit for Maryland in Michigan State. This is the team that when Maryland went into the Big Ten, I was hopeful if there was going to be a rivalry, I didn't want it with Rutgers. I was hopeful that maybe Michigan State and Maryland could create a thing. Two powerful programs, Michigan State more successful, more final fours, all that, Izzo, the whole thing. I understand that. But Izzo talked a lot on the radio show.

today. Again, I would urge you to go listen to it. Talked a lot about his love for Gary Williams and his relationship with Gary Williams and how many games he remembers playing. Maryland and Michigan State met twice in the tournament, once in the Sweet 16 in 2003.

A game, Maryland took the lead in after coming back and then lost I think in overtime in the Sweet 16. And then, of course, everybody remembers the gut-wrenching Cory Lucius buzzer-beat. in the second round of the 2010 tournament, a game in which Maryland trailed by 16 iso remembered it too, Aaron.

He said, you know, the crazy thing about that game, he said, we had that game in control most of the way. We're up 16 and Gary goes to that press and they start turning us over. The press and Gravis went into God mode. He said, he said, and then they had the guard and I said, Gravis Vasquez. He said, yeah, Vasquez, you know, went nuts. He was a terrific player.

And that was one of the most painful losses. of a team that I root for of all time because we loved Vasquez. They had won the ACC regular season title. They were a four seed playing Michigan State who was a five, right? Wasn't that what it was? Or was it two, three or four or five or something like that? It was a four or five game because the winner would have faced Kentucky who had just lost to Northern Iowa. Yes.

Yeah, Maryland was the higher seed of team. I do remember that. Yeah, because they, yes. And I think Maryland was favored in that game as well. But anyway, they didn't win. Corey Lucius, who ended up getting suspended and kicked out of school, I think, the next season. Hits the buzzer beater. But Maryland played Michigan State a lot in early season tournaments.

And Izzo reminded me, we played him in a really good game in Madison Square Garden. And anyway, yeah, I have the history. They played at that Madison Square Garden game in 0607. Maryland won that game, right? Maryland won that game. They also won it looks like what I would guess would be the ACC Big Ten Challenge in 0809, where Maryland won that one as well. I think that one may have been at a tournament.

I think that one may have been in a tournament. I could be wrong. Because I don't think they faced each other in the ACC Big Ten Challenge. You know what? You're right because that was late November, so we've been a little early. I think it may have been in Orlando, actually. Yeah, now that you say that, that sounds right. But Michigan State, let's face it, Big Ten's got a lot of really good basketball programs,

you know, more great football programs, but as a basketball league, I mean, Indiana in Michigan State have been powers. Purdue's really had very good teams at times over the years with legendary coaches now. You know, Gene Katie, Matt and certainly, you know, Matt Painters, I think one of the best coaches and one of the most unheralded coaches in the country. Ohio State's got a basketball, you know, reputation. Wisconsin, obviously, with great basketball tradition. Illinois and Iowa have basketball tradition. And Maryland joined a league with, you know, I'm not going to say more basketball tradition than the ACC, but a lot of programs that have a lot of it. But Michigan State's been the player here over really a 20-year period.

You know, going back to when they won that national championship in 2000, Izzo's those Michigan State programs been the best program in the Big Ten. And if Maryland wants to, you know, Maryland's had basically all top two, three, top four finishes, except for one year since they've been in the league. I believe that's true. Right? Top four every year, but that one year where they didn't make the tournament two years ago. I think they pretty much had top four finishes, but they haven't won the league.

Haven't won the league. Haven't won many tournament games. Haven't won many tournament games. In fact, they've been to the semifinals of the Big Ten tournament twice and lost to Michigan State both times. Yeah. So they haven't done well against Michigan State, period. The first year they were in the league, they beat Michigan State on the road in their first Big Ten game and then beat them at home, but lost at the Big Ten tournament. I don't know.

I kind of feel like this is a big game for Maryland. They don't certainly have to win it. This is not going to knock them out of the Big Ten race. And obviously, they are the only, you know, the bubble watch that ESPN does for tournament teams. Maryland right now is the only listed lock from the Big Ten. But the Big Ten is going to have nine or ten teams minimum. It's one of those scenarios that's like, yeah, hypothetical. these teams could lose every game and then hypothetically marilyn could lose the rest of their

games and they'd still be in the tournament that's probably true um and that's not going to happen knock wood but tomorrow what do you think the point spread's going to be i guessed it earlier i want to hear what your guess was uh i'm thinking michigan state by three four somewhere around yeah i said five or six on on the radio show it wouldn't surprise me if there are five or six point favorite tomorrow i think if we see something much less we'll be excited about it yeah you know you know in many ways i Michigan State always plays great at the end of the year and they get it going at the end of the year. He told me this morning, Izzo did. It's been a trying year. You know, they've lost a bunch of players, including that kid Langford earlier in the season to injury, really good player.

Cassius Winston's brother was tragically passed away and it's been very difficult for him to deal with during the course of the year. Cassius Winston arguably the best player in the Big Ten. All that said, I expect them to get it rolling. They always do, and tomorrow is probably a tough spot for the Terps, just like Illinois should have been a tough spot for them last Friday night. It's always a tough spot, but this is, like you said, it's not a must win for them, but if they do win, that puts them in a great position going forward. Well, I mean, they would be at that point. They would be two games.

Well, in the loss column, they would be three ahead of Michigan State. Yeah. Because that would be Michigan State's sixth conference loss, and Maryland would have three. And by the way, they would, they'd be in position to sort of win the head-to-head by playing them again. Exactly. Penn State, actually. Penn State's scary as far as, if you're looking for, let's win the conference outright.

Penn State has the tiebreaker. They've got the tiebreaker. And they have a good schedule going forward for them. I just pulled up their schedule because I had looked at it the other day and I remembered it being not as difficult as some of the others. They have Northwestern tomorrow at home. They've got Illinois at home. They play at Indiana. They've already beaten Indiana once handily,

although Indiana beat Iowa last night at home, a game that they really needed to have because they're truly a bubble team. Indiana and Minnesota are the real bubble teams right now in the Big Ten, and they beat Iowa last night at home, blew them out, actually. They get Rutgers at home, Penn State does. They get Michigan State at home. They've already beaten them at the Breslin Center.

Their road games are at Indiana, as mentioned, at Iowa, and at Northwestern. They get Northwestern twice. I think at Iowa is the only game they're not going to be favored in. Yeah, I mean, it's possible they could be a dog at Indiana. It's also possible by the time we get to the Michigan State game, they could be a dog at home to Michigan State. True, true.

So, yeah, Penn State's sitting there with four losses. I mean, pretty odd, you know. Who's leading the Big Ten? Maryland is in Penn State's in second. And Rutgers is tied for third in the Big Ten race right now. So actually, Rutgers is tied for fourth, my fault. It should be a fun game tomorrow night. I think the key is Maryland, they've had a couple of opponents this year that play like Michigan State in terms of that attitude and that physical way of playing.

Rhode Island, they played early in the season. Rhode Island's good. And Maryland took a punch or two to the gut in that game and they came back and won that game going away. Another real tough physical game for them was the Seton Hall game, even though Miles Powell didn't play in that game. But Seton Hall's got some bruisers. and Maryland didn't react very well in that particular game. But Maryland's taken it to a couple of teams that have been physical this year. Illinois, Rutgers.

You know, that win against Rutgers at home was a good win. Obviously Purdue, beating Purdue. And I think, you know, right now they've got, you know, one of the best big men in America and one of the better point guards in the country playing right now. Going to have to make shots always comes down to, like you did last week in Illinois. they made a bunch of shots at the end of the first half, which kept them from being blown out, and then their defense sort of took over in the second half. They're going to have to make shots in this game, and they're going to have to rebound too.

That's going to be a key. Michigan State can bruise you inside and at the rim and sticks. You know, foul trouble, he's stayed out of it pretty much most of the year. Wouldn't surprise me tomorrow if Stick Smith for the first time this year in a road game at Michigan State with Izzo on one sideline gets in foul trouble. Wouldn't surprise me at all. Wouldn't be shocking. If that happens.

Anyway, back on Monday, we'll have a lot of basketball from the weekend. I'm not into the All-Star stuff, guys. I'm sorry. I couldn't care less. Saturday night, I guarantee you if my son, who's at Maryland, if he's home, he'll have it on, and so I'll watch it. Not instead of Maryland, you know, Michigan State, obviously. That will be number one in terms of television watching this weekend.

But I just couldn't care less about the NBA All-Star game. I don't like the All-Stery. I watch some of the little, you know, All-Star Saturday stuff. I'm sick of the Saturday stuff. It doesn't bore me yet. I'm not big on it. But usually there's not a lot, though actually there's some pretty good college basketball games tomorrow that I'd probably watch instead.

What do we have? Who's participating in the Dunkin? I think Davos Bertons, isn't he participating in the three-point shooting? Yeah, he's in the three-point. Okay, so maybe if that's on late after the Maryland game, maybe I'll tune in to see if he, you know, can knock off Joe Harris, who won it last year. Am I right about that? I think it was Joe Harris. The Virginia kid. Who can really, really shoot it.

Anyway, that's it for the day. Enjoy the weekend back on Monday. Also, don't forget, stamps.com. All right, use my promo code, Kevin, D.C. If you're a small business, Stamps.com saves time. It saves money. You get five cents off every stamp, 40% off priority mail. Over 700,000 businesses are using Stamps.com.

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