The Kevin Sheehan Show - Legler's Commanders & Nearly Sean Payton's Too!

Episode Date: February 11, 2023

Kevin on Sean Payton's comments about what may have been for him in Washington. Also, the 2nd part of Kevin's conversation with Tim Legler is all about Tim's #1 passion, the Washington Commanders. Tim on the disappointing end to the '22 season, Ron Rivera, Daron Payne, Chase Young, the OC search, and lots more.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Chean Show. Here's Kevin. As promised yesterday, we're putting out a show today, primarily for the purpose of playing the second half of my conversation with Tim Legler. And that part of the conversation deals with Tim Legler's number one passion, the Washington Commanders. Yeah, he is a massive fan, as many of you know.

and we talked all about his thoughts on the season, his thoughts on the offseason to come, Ron Rivera, Scott Turner, Chase Young, the quarterback situation, Duran Payne. So you're going to hear Tim Legler coming up here shortly on the Washington commanders. If you missed it too, I'll include in the Legler segment his Super Bowl prediction. So you'll get that at the end as well.

And also, let me just tell you, stay tuned at the very end of the show for our all-time favorite Super Bowl highlight. The show today is presented by My Bookie. My Bookie is designed a unique deposit bonus that lets you cash in and cash out quickly. This is for listeners of this podcast. You have to use my promo code, Kevin D.C., but you make your initial deposit. You wager that amount and you're eligible to cash. out immediately if you win that bet. This is perfect for those of you who just want to bet the Super Bowl tomorrow. By the way, my bookie still has the Eagles at minus one and a half. They

still have the total at 51. I didn't mention, as an aside, the two prop bets on the show yesterday that I've made. Number one is, I played Kansas City on the alternate line at minus six and a half plus two 12, because I like the Chiefs, as I've mentioned. to win by double digits. And I also played Isaiah Pacheco two touchdowns or more at plus 800. I thought about Jarek McKinnon on the same bet, but I bet Pacheco. I love Pacheco. He's been quite the revelation this year. Seventh round pick out of Rutgers. My God, does he run hard? And does he run with urgency? And I just think the Chiefs, if they end up winning this game, are going to be pretty balanced.

I think they're going to be able to run the football. Teams have at times been able to run the football against Philadelphia. And I think you have to stay balanced against the Eagles. Can't give them, you know, the opportunities to tee off with that pass rush. So those were the two prop bets I have made so far. There may be another one or two to come. But Pacheco, two touchdowns are more plus 800, and the Chiefs at minus six and a half on the alternate,

line plus 212 I'm getting back on that but anyway my bookie.ag use my promo code Kevin DC take advantage of this opportunity to wager your deposit one time and then you're eligible to cash out immediately. My bookie bet anything anytime anywhere. So before I get to Legler, there are a couple of things to get to because these things happened after the time that we finished recording the podcast yesterday and I'm in here recording it this morning here on Saturday morning. First of all, the athletic late yesterday afternoon, early last evening, reported that Josh Harris recently toured the Washington Commanders Ashburn, Virginia headquarters. So Josh Harris, one of, by the way, the two bidders that are guests yesterday on the show,

Josh Cosman from the New York Post, and I would urge you to go listen to that interview. you. Josh, you know, reported that the sale is not going well. He also believes that Bezos is very much in the running. But his lean was that ultimately Snyder wouldn't get what he was looking for and would figure out a way to try to hold on to the team when they get to the league meetings in March. But if you didn't listen to that interview on yesterday's podcast, Josh was really good. And look, I emphasized who knows what to believe, who knows who's got the best sources and the best information. There hasn't been a ton of reporting on the sale, and obviously nothing's come from the team or the league. But Josh really had some new information.

So I would urge you to go back and listen to yesterday's show. It's 30 minutes, but it's worth it if you haven't heard it as of yet. But anyway, the athletic reporting, the Josh Harris, who, you know, my guest yesterday, Josh Cosman said is one of the two bidders right now. Josh Harris, and he had another bidder who he referred to as a mystery bidder, with Bezos kind of waiting in the wings. Josh Harris recently toured the commander's Ashburn, Virginia headquarters, according to the athletic. a strong signal of interest that he wants to acquire the team. Now, look, you know, in the process of doing due diligence, if you are interested in acquiring anything,

you're going to tour the facilities. So what this confirms is that indeed Josh Harris is one of the bidders, for sure. I don't think he'd waste his time touring the Ashburn headquarters. and that perhaps it's a sign that Snyder really is moving forward with this process, and you've got a guy who's at the stage of due diligence where he's looking at everything that would be involved in the acquisition of the team, which may or may not include, I think it would include for sure, the Ashburn headquarters, and the land, by the way, which is worth lot of money. By the way, the land and landover inside the Beltway worth a lot of money.

You know, one of the things to consider in follow-up to the conversation yesterday with Josh Cosman from the New York Post where he said, you know, that the bidders essentially opened up the prospectus and said, nah, it's not worth this. But there are lots of different ways to sort of create the sale of this organization. Like, what's actually involved? other than just the acquisition of the football team. Is all of the land out in Ashburn involved? Is all of the land and the stadium in Landover involved? Is the sports book license that Washington just got?

And they opened up that sports book at FedEx Field. Is that involved? Is that part of the acquisition? So it's more than just the football team. There are lots of different ways. And based on what they're acquiring, that will dictate the final sale of the price. I would also remind everybody, and I talk to somebody who, on the condition of anonymity,

is in the know with respect to one of the bidders and what they're looking at, is that Josh Harris in particular could potentially, because our guest yesterday suggested that Harris doesn't have enough right now in pure liquid capital, to buy the football team at a $6 billion plus number. But he owns the 76ers. He paid $280 million for the 76ers. The Phoenix Suns just sold for $4 billion. So he could certainly sell a significant stake in the 76ers,

if not the whole thing, and would be good to go with respect to, liquidity and the ability to buy the football team. So there are lots of different things that these bidders can do to clear the way from a capability standpoint to buy the team. But the guy, Isheba, just paid $4 billion for the Phoenix Suns. And Josh Harris paid $280 million in 2011. for the 76ers. He's got some equity in the 76ers. So he could certainly, you know, put himself

into a more favorable position by selling any of the three major sports assets that he has. The devils, the 76ers are Crystal Palace, which is the Premier League team to buy Washington. But think about just in terms of the, you know, Josh Harris specifically, you know, the ability that he could have selling different assets to create the opportunity from a liquid standpoint to buy the team. And then also think about, you know, the sale of the commanders, what does it include, what doesn't it include? Because I think one of the things that came out of my conversation with Cosman yesterday from the New York Post is that, you know, he suggested that Washington isn't worth that much more than Denver. And I said,

well, the markets are much different than one another, which he conceded. But, you know, he made a good point, and we kind of talked this through together. You know, Washington has more challenges than Denver. First of all, you've got to build a new stadium, massive cost. Secondly, Denver didn't lose two-thirds of what the fan base, the customer base, used to be. So the new owner has to build a new stadium and then has to go out and recapture what used to be a significant, you know, customer base, fan base. And there's going to be costs associated with that. Now, I personally think you could make the case if you're the seller, although Dan would never say this about himself.

Look, once I'm gone, the fans are coming back. You're not going to have to spend a whole lot to get everybody back. but you're going to have to spend a lot to get a lot of people back because the name loss alone, you know, distanced many from the organization. By the way, the other thing that the guy from the New York Post, Josh Cosman, told me yesterday, is that Washington's net profit of $150 million was, you know, average for the league.

And, you know, I've been told pre-year, that Washington's overall revenue number is in the bottom third of the NFL, but most of the bottom third teams are the smaller market teams, you know, Charlotte, Jacksonville, you know, Denver, Phoenix, whereas Washington's like the biggest market team that's in the bottom third of overall revenue. But I also learned that Washington's 150 million dollar net profit number was about $205 million just five years ago. So their net profit number, not that this is a revelation. Okay, I think we all know that they've been losing top line revenue, which is going to ultimately impact significantly your net profit number. But they've lost, you know, essentially

25% of their net profit from just where they were. or five years ago, where most NFL teams are increasing with the media deals, their net profit each year. You know, part of that, too, I believe, you know, includes them cutting back on expenses, you know, in recent years as well. So that factors into it even more so. But anyway, the athletic reporting that Josh Harris has toured the facilities out in Ashburn. The other story that happened between the recording of the podcast yesterday and me being in here this morning, is something that Sean Payton, the new head coach of the Denver Broncos, told Adam Shine on Adam Shine's Sirius XM NFL radio show yesterday.

Listen to this exchange between Sean Peyton and Adam Shine. Was there ever thought about going back to New Orleans? That was out there. Yeah. And look, it's a trickier one because, look, it involves someone that I've hired Dennis Allen and we've worked together on two different stints. But I think in the end, for me, it was looking really closely at these teams. And then there was a, you know, everyone's waiting to see what happens in Washington.

And there were some interest from some potential ownership groups that are going to be bidding on, that currently have bit on that team, that we're getting ahead of the game saying, hey, if we get awarded this team, would you? And so there were a lot of different things that that's interesting. And that's a place that's had great tradition. Like when I came into the league, Adam, my first two years were Philly. Of course, yeah. My next four years were New York Giants. So you know all about that. And then my next three were the Cowboys. That my whole entire NFL career prior to New Orleans was NFC, NFC East. And what happened

to that program? Was that one that made you think a little bit? Listen, that place, my uncle loved the Washington franchise. Last year, we go there to play. And I'm pregame, I'm looking up in the crowd. A third of the fans are Saints fans. And I'm like, what happened to this place? Yeah. That was one of the six

that was one of the six pillars. They used to fight for tickets in divorces. I mean, there's a 50-year wait list to get tickets. It's sad. That was a special place. It was. So, It'll come back. So before I get to, you know, Sean Payton talking about being contacted by a prospective new owner, I just wanted to say about his last comments there about what Washington used to be.

So many people in the league understand what we've all gone through. You know, anybody that's been a part of the NFL for a long period of time, by the way, that includes fans too, not necessarily just being a part of the NFL, but longtime fans. They know what we used to have and they know how far it's fallen. And I've always felt that there are a lot of people in the league, including the commissioner himself, who desperately want Washington to return to relevance, you know, return to, you know, where it was as one of the pillars in the league. You know, it was good for the league when Washington and Dallas and the giants and the Eagles were all good and we're all vying for NFCE supremacy, league supremacy, you know, big East Coast markets

and then the Cowboys themselves. And you heard that in Sean Payne and Adam Schein, who's been a long time. you know, NFL, you know, show host, talking about, you know, and understanding what Washington was. It's obviously not news to us. It's obviously not something that we don't feel. But I don't know, I sometimes think the further we get away from it, the fewer people there are left in the league that understand what this once was and what it could be again. Now, in regard to Sean Payton mentioning to Adam Shine that prospective new ownership groups had reached out to him to gauge his interest in coaching the team, I would say a few things. Number one, I think he's talking out of school there. I think it's unfair to Ron Rivera. He's part, Sean Payton is part of the coaching fraternity.

And essentially what he's saying there is, Ron, you're really lucky I took the Denver job. You're really fortunate I took this Denver job. You're really fortunate I took this Denver job because if I hadn't, the new ownership group, more likely than that was going to hire me and you were going to be out. So I don't think that was appropriate of Sean Payton to kind of bring up in that setting. He didn't need to bring that up. He's got a job. I'm glad he did. It makes for good conversation. And we learned a little bit, including that some of the reporting, remember Rex Ryan had that story about Sean Payton maybe to Washington. with a new ownership group. By the way, part of that was Tom Brady as well.

Who knows? Maybe if Sean Payton hadn't taken the Denver job where Russell Wilson is, maybe if he had waited and taken the Washington job with the new ownership group, maybe Tom Brady would have stayed unretired and come to Washington. Who knows? But I think he was speaking a bit out of school there and inappropriately. Number two is this, and this is not revealing. Ron Rivera, if he makes it to the 20,

23 opener, which there's a chance he won't, because if the new ownership group takes over end of March, it's still possible they could boom everybody and bring in their own group then. Look, right now, Arizona doesn't have a new coach, Indy doesn't have a new coach, and we may only be six weeks away from a new owner in Washington. So it's possible that Ron, if the new ownership takes over, you know, end of March, doesn't even make it to 2023. But if he does, and I would bet that he does, he's on the hottest of hot seats entering 2023. Nobody's on a hotter seat entering 2023 than Ron Rivera.

He'll be the number one coach, you know, in terms of hot seats when we open in September of 2020. Now, it's possible Sam Howell's the right guy. They've got a good team. They go 10 and 7. they win a playoff game. Remember when Dan took over in 1999, Norv was still the head coach. They went 10 and 6. They won a playoff game against the Lions. They had a chance to get to the NFC championship game but lost 14 to

Tampa Bay in the divisional round, a game that was certainly winnable. And Norv came back for 2000. And then, of course, got fired at the end of that year. And then we got into what was a great decision by Dan, hiring Marty Schottenheimer and giving him total control and then the worst decision he ever made at the end of 2001. But anyway, those are two quick thoughts on Sean Payton's comments yesterday. All right. Up next, Tim Legler, the second part of the conversation that I promised you yesterday,

all on the Washington commanders, Tim's favorite team. We'll get to that right after these words from a few of our sponsors. All right, jumping on with me right now is always one of my favorite people to have conversations with, especially about basketball, but also about the commanders. And that is Tim Legler from ESPN, a diehard Washington football fan. And whatever time we have together here, he'd prefer that we just talk about that versus all of the NBA craziness. But look, 8-8-1 this year, Rivera's now heading into his 14. year. There's a sale potentially happening, hopefully happening, although there's been a lot of

different reporting on that. What were your, we haven't talked since the end of the season. What was your overall takeaway from 2022? Honestly, the way it ended, overshadowed everything for me because I felt like, legitimately felt like Rivera sabotaged the way they had played for a couple of months by making a decision to go back to Carson Went at the end of the year. It just, to me, should have been beyond obvious to him to not make that move at that time. You put yourself in a position, look, and I'm one of those guys that, no matter what our record is, no matter where we are, where we sit and standings, whatever, I want to win every week. I just, I just, just the way I'm wired, I want to win every week.

And now here we put ourselves in a position. you win two home games and you're in the playoffs. And there was a good chance the last game of the year that Cowboys weren't going to be playing for much. Now, as it turns out, they were because of Philly. But, you know, Philly got up so big in their game, there's a good chance, you know, maybe they pulled Dallas's starters in the second half of that game.

So I was very confident about the Cowboys game. So really it came down to the Cleveland Browns game. And I was in the stadium that day, and to make that decision to go back to a guy that was not very good at the beginning of the year, and it sat all those weeks. And you should have an idea of the pulse of the team, the pulse of the city, did not want to see that happen. And he did it anyway.

And I thought it was an arrogant move. And I thought even after he threw those couple picks early in that game, it was still a three-to-nothing game. And at any point, you know, if you put your ego to the side and admit that this is probably a mistake, and Taylor Heineke runs out onto the field at some point in the middle of the second quarter for their next possession, the stadium is going to erupt, erupt. And that alone is going to give that team a lift. They played with no fire that day. I was sitting there, I told someone, this is true.

I was sitting there in like the third quarter, and I could have had a conversation with any person on the other side of the stadium in a normal tone of voice. Can't believe. Because that's how quiet. Can't believe you were there. I can't believe you were there. How many games did you make it to this year?

I made it to all but two, and that was because we, went down to our Florida home for a little bit, and I just, I was irritated. They weren't very good early in the year. Wents was still playing, and I just was like, I am not flying back up to watch this slop right now, because that's what I felt it was. If Hineke had been playing or they were winning or I felt we had a better chance, I probably would have flown up just for the game and flown back down. So I missed two because I was in Florida, and I saw every other game. Look, I don't want to go back and relitigate the Cleveland game. Obviously, he made the wrong

decision to start Carson Wentz. There's no doubt about it. I think you and I were communicating and we've been communicating on Sundays or Monday nights or whatever the games were throughout the year. They wanted to make that move before the giant game at home with the by week, but that magical drive at the end of regulation that forced overtime meant that they were going to give Taylor one more shot. The offense had become stagnant, very stagnant. Now, the move to Wentz obviously wasn't the move. Maybe they should have gone to Sam Hal. We're going to talk about him here in a moment. But the Cleveland game, here's the one thing that I have a problem with with all of the people, and you're not the only one. A lot of people say, how did he not see it and come out with

Taylor Heineke in the second half? The last drive of the first half was a 21-play 96-yard drive, the longest drive in the NFL all season long of 11 minutes and 27 seconds, and they were up 7 to 3. I agree with you that it looked very early on like Wentz was a complete mess and a complete disaster. But going in at halftime, they had converted one third down after another, a fourth down. They had a seven to three lead. And then defensively in the second half, they got torched. They got obliterated three straight drives, 265 yards, and, you know, and 21 points. Touchdown, touchdown, touchdown.

and it was over. But I'm not disputing. It was a terrible call to go to Wentz. I just didn't feel, even today, like a month, you know, a month in a week later, I did not feel at halftime like they should have made that move. No, no, Kevin, I agree with you based on that last drive before the half. You don't make that move at halftime. Okay.

You make that move in the second, in the middle of the second quarter before that drive. Right. He was so bad early in the game. and he had a he had a play he they remember he threw like the screen pass that they backed up on their own ends up that that and and i literally was at the game of my daughter and i literally told my daughter i know for a fact you would have completed that pass without question he he's not an NFL player and and so when i saw that it was okay this guy number one he he's he's got you know all this rust from not playing, too. It wasn't like it was great early where the city was in love with

it. So he's feeling this vibe in the stadium that day. Everybody was kind of waiting to see the decision they were going to make leading up to that game. You're in a position. I mean, what can you ask more based on what we've had in recent history with this team than, hey, would you take two home games at the end of the year? You win them both. You're in the playoffs. And that's where we were at. People were excited to be at the state. stadium. They were excited. Well, I shouldn't say that. Well, some people were. By the time I sat down, people were actually,

I talked to people near my seats like I do every week, people were actually feeling exactly what I was feeling that this guy was going to play again. So I'm saying, when you saw him early with the two picks and that play, and you're like, okay, this guy's rattled. He's not, he can't, he can't pull this off. And he then he gave him another drive. He gets the long drive, and I'm like, okay, let's see what's going to have. I knew he was going to pull it at halftime. I thought it should have been.

sooner than that. And it never should have happened in the first place because they did have momentum with Heineke. Yeah, I know those last couple of weeks wasn't great, but bottom line was Taylor Heineke did have a lot to do with why they were in that position. And you know, I feel about Heineke and I'm not like married to Taylor Heineke, be my quarterback going forward. I'd love to have something better. Carson Wentz wasn't it. And he couldn't admit that based on the way the team had played and what he had seen. Carson went sitting on the sideline. All those. weeks. And clearly, clearly, nobody that follows that team wanted to see that guy run on the field again. And yet he did. And I just thought it was an arrogant move because he was trying to prove

that, well, I knew better in the summer. This is an upgrade. I don't care what happened the beginning of the year or how long he sat. I'm right. And I'm going to prove that I'm right. and I thought he undermined the team, and I thought some of what happened in the second half of the defense, they get demoralized when it looked obvious that this team can't move the football offensively. And I think you have lapses in concentration defensively when you know there's going to be three in outs or there's going to be short drives, or there's just going to be an inability to put points on the board. And that's kind of what I felt being in the stadium at that. I you know there's no doubt he was he was rattled I mean he gagged big time in this game

you know I don't even know if it was the rust I mean when you throw a ball into the dirt on a screen you know that's five yards short of the intended receiver you're really tight I mean he was as tight as you could get it too tight yeah and um but uh at the end of that half they had something going and then, you know, they had the lead and whatever. We could go on and on about the Browns game and Taylor Heineke. The bottom line is their quarterbacking all year long wasn't good enough. You know, they, Heineke was like the 34th ranked, you know, PFF quarterback. Wentz was the 37th.

Neither one of them, it was a very stagnant offense at times, given that the playmakers that they have. Look, I put a lot of it on the offensive line. The offensive line was horrible. It was horrible early with Wents. It was horrible with Heineke as well. But now that's done. So what do you want them to do at quarterback here in the offseason? Well, I think it doesn't even matter what I want because I know where this is going.

And, you know, it's funny. I got to tell you real quick, I was the last game of the year was the only game of the year I did not watch live. I mean, you know, either. I thought you were going to tell me that you went to it. No, no, as it was happening, as it was happening, it's the only game of the year. I wasn't watching it while it was happening. I actually went to a high school basketball tournament that day to watch some of my buddies coach that were in a big shootout.

You guys worked my camp every year, and they were actually fairly close to my house in Jersey. So I was like, you know, I was a good opportunity to go and spend the day watching high school hoops and see my buddies. So I did that, and I DVR at the game. and I was like, when I DVR something, I literally do everything I can to avoid my phone because I don't want to know. I just don't. I want to watch it as if I have no idea what happened. But unfortunately, I got this group of friends that they're a Redskins fan. And I'm just, I'm not going to give you fully what they said.

But the context of what I was reading was basically they were looking at the second coming of Joe Montan's from Tom Brady. Of course. And so I'm going, I'm going, oh, hey. I can't wait to get home and watch this. So I got home, and I watched the game, and I'm going, okay, and here's my conclusion at the end of the game was, okay, he has pretty good legs, like he's a pretty good athlete. He had definitely had a couple of deep balls that came out of his hands,

like, you know, just different than the Heineke, for sure, probably even went. So I'm like, okay, he's got a pretty big arm. I think one was completed, one wasn't. He threw a horrific red zone pick. He got sacked five, six times like both of the other guys did every game. And he threw for like 140 yards. And that was probably the worst display of quarterback I've ever watched in Jack Prescott that day. So, and they win the game.

And I'm going, okay, look, there's some little things there, but nothing what people were acting as if they had just watched. And I think it's because relative to what they saw all year and just the frustration and lack of hope at the position, everybody, I think, was seeing things maybe through rose-colored glasses that wasn't really happening. Now, I'm not saying Sam Howell won't turn into a great quarterback. It's just no possible way you can take that from that game. That's all I'm saying. So I know going into the year, because Ron Rivera just does not think Taylor Heineken

starting quarterback to the league. So that's over. Put it to that. As long as Roder Veres here, he will always be looking for someone to play in front of Taylor Hineke if he's still on the roster. So I know that.

So clearly, Sam Howell is going to be the guy. It's going to be everything, you know, in his lap to lose. It's all his. He's got to be so horrific in camp in the preseason to not start opening week. That's the only way he does not start opening week or an injury.

It's not going to be that, you know, that anything, you know, mediocre, even close to mediocre, it wouldn't even matter if Heineke was better. Sam Howell is going to be the starting quarterback week one. So it doesn't even matter what I think. I know that's where they're going. And I just think, hey, I hope he turns into it. And I'm okay if that's what they decide they want to do.

They don't think what they had was good enough, Kevin. Fine. Let's play Sam Howell. But don't try to tell me what you watched in that game. If you're a fan and you know football that you saw, all these things that I think Washington fans were trying to articulate that day because it's just not true.

If you went back and watched the game again, it's not based on that game. There's some things within the game that you saw. Yeah, that's a nice ball. He put some zip on that one. But if you look at the overall play, no, it's not on that level. But hey, maybe, maybe, you know,

he has a full, all-season to prepare, a full camp, pre-season, knowing he's the guy, maybe that, you know, he can get ready by opening week to be a guy that at least is, you know, an upgrade from what we watch this year. But I have no idea right now, as I said here, if that's going to be the case. Nobody has any idea. Nobody does.

I mean, and of course I dealt with a lot of that, too. It's like, oh, my God, they got their guy with a fifth round pick. He's on a rookie contract. The whole rookie contract quarterback thing is, you know, over the last couple of years, especially with Hertz playing in the Super Bowl. It's like, this is what you've got to try to do. That's a needle in a haystack. I hope that Sam Howell ends up being that guy.

Nobody has any idea. And you didn't even mention, and I know that you know this, they didn't even want to play them in what amounted to be a preseason game against the Cowboys in the season finale. Taylor Heineke talked the coaching staff into playing Sam Howell, which, by the way, was a shrewd move on his part, given that Dallas has a really good defense. And, you know, there's enough tape on Taylor right now.

He's going to get a deal to be a backup quarterback somewhere. I don't think there's any doubt about it. But, yeah, nobody knows about Sam Hal. Nobody knows about Sam Hal. But it would be great if he turned out to be true. Because he does have, by the way, as you said, really good running ability and he's got a big arm. Hey, sign me up for some Sam Howell if he's the guy.

And I'm going to give him every opportunity in my mind. mind, like the benefit is doubt when I watch them. I'm going to watch. But, you know, 11 for 19, 169 yards, a touchdown, a pick in three sacks. And he ran the ball, I think, for like 30 yards. Dak Prescott was an embarrassment. Oh, he was horrible that day. They win the game 26 to 6. And that also, I think, added to the allure of Sam Howell, as if, you know, this guy put this team on his back. Well, didn't they? They had a defensive touchdown, too, didn't they? Wasn't that a Kendall Fuller pick six game. That was when he threw

well that through basically consecutive out. Right. Exactly. The first one he dropped and the second one he ran back. Yeah. So yeah, that was, they also got help out there. So look, you know, here we are going into the off season. As usual,

a mixed bag with this team. What I like, what I don't like. And we're still, again, going into a season not really feeling stable at the most important position in professional sports. Here's a question for you because I've talked a lot about it. To me, this team and this roster is actually the big takeaway from, you know, after

the quarterback play and everything else, this roster is better than I thought it was at the beginning of the year. I think they've got a really good defense. I think it's a top 10 defense. It was per the football outsider's DVOA metric. It was number nine in the league. I think they've got exceptional skill position players on offense. And I, if it were a normal ownership situation, which it is.

and I think there's probably some level of spending freeze going on. They're not going to swing big. Ron Rivera talked about it. They tried to get Matt Stafford two years ago. They went big after Russell Wilson last year, and then they settled on Plan G, which was, you know, Carson Wentz after Garoppolo had surgery and anybody else that they were chasing. But to me, if this were a normal situation, which it isn't, this would be the year with this roster that I'd swing big at Aaron Rogers if he were actually legitimate.

available. Like I would go all in with a package of first round picks and everything else, and I would say, look, there's no, Sam Howell's no guarantee. In fact, it's a long shot that'll end up being a franchise quarterback, not wishing it, hoping that it turns out to be well, turn out well. But what would, if it were a normal situation, would you be thinking big this offseason at the quarterback if there was somebody out there that you could get that you really liked. You know, when you just said that, my initial gut reaction was, you know, immediately I flashed and pictured Aaron Rogers playing at FedEx and in front of that crowd and the

way that it is now, the pessimism that exists, it's palpable when you walk in there on Sunday. The coverage of the team, you know, everything that's kind of surrounding them. And I think, man, you know, this is a guy that is just. you know, and we all know how talented he is, but, you know, he hasn't been no Super Bowl, and I don't know how many years, and he still is basically revered,

and he was certainly in Green Bay, and now you come into this situation that's just kind of a mess, and how would he, how would he, like, handle that if he did not have success early with the team? Like, he's the type of leader that you would need, you know, in this situation. So that's the first thing that went through my head,

as opposed to a younger quarterback that had a lot of talent that they could somehow get that was just so hungry, didn't care about any of that stuff because the guy wanted to go out and reek and prove himself. I don't know if Aaron Rogers

would be in that mindset in that stadium for that organization. I just, I don't know if that would be like a great fit with some of the things that you hear over the years about his personality type and whatnot. So I don't know if he would be,

bought into it, and that's the problem. That's where you'd have a problem. He'd have to be completely bought into, yeah, this is an organization that once had this incredible, you know, passionate, fan-based, incredible history of winning, but it's been so long now that I would love to be that guy to get them back there. You know, let's go 11 and 5, 12, and 4 win the division and make you a legitimate Super Bowl contender. I don't know that he would be in that mindset because as soon as he would get there, I think he'd see there's a hell of a lot of dysfunction around here. I think that's totally fair because even when we've had conversations about Aaron Rogers in the past, you know, it's been suggested, well, coming here, like nobody comes here to kind of salvage or resuscitate their careers.

You know, it typically doesn't end well. But from a pure football standpoint, unless you really believe that Aaron Rogers regressed this year, and I didn't necessarily. He didn't have Devante Adams, you know. Towards the end of the year, you know, Watson and a couple of the other guys started to emerge. But you put him with Dotson and MacLorn and Robinson Jr. And Gibson and Samuel,

and you've got that young, you know, defense that was top ten-ish last year. On paper, and you could be right. Ultimately, let's just say it doesn't work out because he's not the leader and they need a leader in this organization. on paper they'd be the third pick worst case in the NFC to win the NFC championship. It would be they'd have the highest over under on wins that they've had since probably 2000, the 2000 season. But anyway, I want to ask you about Chase Young. Ron Rivera said the other day that they're not sure they're going to pick up the fifth year option on Chase Young.

What's your reaction to that? You know, look, I don't know that it's a great thing to put that out there. I think that's something that's just say, you know, in Ronald Rivera's office, right? That should be behind a closed door, I think. I also, having said that, I also understand why they might feel that way. Yep. And look, I know he got hurt, but prior to the injury, I don't know about you, but I saw an incredible regression that year. He looked like a guy in year two in the beginning of the season that had one thing on his mind.

It was straight, edge, rush, get up the field, and get sacks. And he just wasn't a guy that was impacting the game because he wasn't getting there. And he was just breaking down so often in terms of his discipline and what he needed to do as a two-way defensive linemen. he was in love with the big play because he made a bunch of them his rookie year. He was all over the highlight reels and he was defensive rookie year and all that was deserved. But I think

he got addicted to the big play and so he really had no impact prior to the injury. Then he got hurt and you're like okay, you know, who knows, I mean, we all thought we were going to see him earlier in the year and I think that first game I went to that I expected to play

it was raining that day and it was wet and I thought okay maybe they're not playing. We were told that week. They told us that week. Correct. Atlanta. They told us that week he was going to play. And so I was like, oh, I was excited. Even if it's 10 plays, like, I might get to see Chase. And he didn't play. It's probably because it's the wetfield guy coming back for that injury. You know, you don't want to risk that. And then it lingered on for a few more weeks. He finally played. And, you know, I'm not going to sit there. I'm a guy that I went through a horrific knee injury, came back. And that first year that I came back,

I played really well, like right out of the gate, and then I started getting a lot of swelling, and then I really struggled the rest of that season to make shots in my end-to-it-I-had-knit. I had no lift, and it was stiff, and I was struggling, and I got booed a little bit, which in Washington was new to me because, you know, I'd become like a fan favorite because of the way I played year before. So I'm not going to sit there and beat up a guy for struggling, coming back from the injury, but he didn't have an impact at the end of this year. So now you go into this next season, and I think all of us don't really know what you have in Shea Shown. He certainly hasn't been the guy that he was his rookie year.

Can he get back to it? I don't know. I don't know. And look, maybe there's some good things about him just from a leadership standpoint, and he certainly seems into it. And he's always on the sideline. He's hyping guys up. He's vocal.

And, you know, hopefully that's all genuine and not for show. and we're giving the benefits down to it's genuine. Like he loves it that much, and he's pulling for his guys, and he's always vocal and present on the sideline. He's not pouting and moping. Those are all good things. But at the end of the day, that guy needs to be what he was his rookie year,

which is a guy that could disrupt games. And he hasn't done that since then. So I understand why they would doubt if he can ever get back there, and if that's their thinking, I just don't think that's the kind of thing you put out there for public consumption before you're ready to decide that. I completely agree with you on that. I did think, though, that in the three games he played in,

I thought he looked as athletic as he did. You're right about the production that's fine, although I think he was, he did have a couple of games in which I thought he was a factor in those games. But more importantly, I thought he looked like he had his explosiveness. Uh, yeah. I don't think it was like back to 100%. But I wasn't watching him thinking, man, this guy's really laboring to move.

No, I wasn't thinking that at all. So yeah, I'll go with you on that. All right, let's take a quick break. And when we come back, I'll ask Tim about whether or not they should resign Dron Payne. And his thoughts on something that frustrated him a lot during the course of the year, the offensive coordinator. And more right after these words from a few of our sponsor. answers.

Duran Payne, do you want him back or not? Yeah, absolutely. 100%. Yeah. O.C. Do you care about who the O.C. is? You know, here's what I've learned about that over the years. The technicalities of that job and what that entails are beyond, look, I think I know a lot about football.

That's beyond my knowledge because, look, there are guys that have been hired in the NBA that I literally had to Google who the hell they were. When I heard their name announced as the head coach of an NBA team. So my point being, the people that internally are making those decisions that some of these guys that you can get off someone's staff, like, you know, you could get the quarterbacks coach from Cincinnati or the quarterback's coach from, you know, a lesser team, you know, the Raiders. It might be somebody that's born to do this job.

So I typically, when people are hired, unless I know the guy, which is rare, you know, head coaches sometimes I do, I was in favor of Rivera getting hired. I knew because he had a body of work in Carolina, and I wanted anything besides groups. So I was like, absolutely, you could have said anything. Yes, please. That would have been my reaction. So, and I did kind of know, but like somebody's coordinators, I don't watch these teams enough to know. and there's also positions guys get elevated from a quarterback's coach or a running backs coach sometimes when they'll get promoted to a coordinator job.

And I just, I don't, maybe they're born to do it. And I give people the benefit of the doubt typically before I immediately say, oh, there's no way to be a good hire. I just, and I think a lot of people that go on the air and blast hires in that way don't have the first idea if the person can do the job or not. They just try to make a, try to give a hot take and be that devil's advocate and come out and, and create the rhetoric. I'm not like that. The name comes up, and I'm not familiar with him. I'm going to go, okay, maybe he's the guy.

So, no, to answer your question, I don't really have a strong opinion on who that should be, and they're probably going to hire someone that I'm not that familiar with, and I'm going to have to accept it and hope that I see something better. I wasn't a huge fan of Scott Turner. No, you weren't. I understand. They went to the running game,

and that was definitely more suited to what they had. Their line wasn't very good at pass protection, They were better as a run-blocking crew. We had some studbacks, and we struggled at quarterback. So that made sense. I didn't understand for the life of me, and this was much more prevalent than Carson West was playing quarterback. I did not understand these long stretches of games without something creative

that they had put in to get Terry McClor in a touch. I didn't understand it because I watched all these teams, and they're number one guy, and make no mistake about it, Terry McCorn is a number one top-notch receiver in this league. All of these guys get touches early in the game. Even if it's just a three-yard slant and they catch it and get tackled immediately, they touch the ball. Carson Wentz would go entire quarters without looking in his direction.

And I'm like, that can't be all Carson Wentz. Some of that has to be the offensive coordinator. How is that possible? and so that was probably my biggest frustration with him. I just didn't get it. Now, he made the adjustment to run the ball, but that could have been more Rivera's mandate than anything, or he just had no choice.

He felt, and we ran the hell out of the ball for most of the year after that. But I don't, I did not understand his play calling, and he had some calls in that Cleveland game. I mean, he cut a fourth down and like one wide pitch and it wasn't to Brian Robinson and explain it and you got tackle for a five-yard loss on a fourth and one

and I'm going like what is that? Oh yeah, well right there were like some fourth and ones they didn't even give it to Robinson Jr in the last couple games. By the way I'm just as you're talking because it occurred to me that the number one gripe during the season from you and our back and forth texting during games

was Scott Turner and there's no doubt that your biggest problem and your biggest source of frustration this year was Scott Turner. I kind of feel what you said to begin with. I kind of feel like I don't know what I don't know when it comes to this, but I do know that eight different quarterbacks have started for this guy in three years, none of whom were any good at all. And so I start from there, but there were moments where I was very frustrated. The giant game at home on Sunday night, when Brian Robinson Jr. is averaging 7 and a half yards per carry,

and in a game that's super tight throughout, he only gets 12 carries. That was a major whiff. By the way, he came out later that week and said, I made a mistake. We should have given Robinson be robbed the ball a lot more in that game. But you're single. But here's a thing, Kevin, let me just stop right there. Here's what I'll get. I've never coached the pro.

But I've coached a hell of a lot of basketball in my life. And I had a really, really good AAC team. We played a national schedule. All my kids ended up playing college basketball. But I had one stud. I had one kid that became a five-star recruit pretty quickly by the age of 1516, that every night, on his worst night, I knew I was getting 25 on a terrible night, and 35 on a great night.

He gave us a chance against bigger, more athletic teams. Here's my point with that. at no point did I go eight possessions in a row where he didn't touch the ball and then after the game I said you know what that's all me that's my mistake because in the moment

in the moment as a coach it has to go there and if it doesn't go there two times in a row I'm like time out and I'm making sure he gets the ball the next time

I never understand guys that after the game say yeah you know what that's that's all me you know you didn't get enough you're calling out of you're calling you're no plays. What are you talking about? It's not a mistake. It's incompetence. And that's where I have a problem with that kind of stuff. I wouldn't have been, look, I wasn't going to be devastated if

Scott Turner came back. But I saw, I was too frustrated too often watching the games. And it looks like Rivera, like I said. I mean, you could have easily most of those games taken a cardboard cutout, stood it up on the sidelines with his arms folded with sunglasses, and Rivera could have gone into a dinner somewhere and been at a restaurant. And you wouldn't have known he left the stadium because he doesn't change the expression on his face. He doesn't change his movement. Every now and then he gets into it with an official. But for the most part, he's kind of watching what Scott Turner's calling.

So that's why I probably expressed more frustration with Turner even than Rivera. Because if you think about it, if Rivera's not calling the offense or the defense, then what's left for him? Do we go forward on fourth down? who's playing quarterback this week? Do we kick a field goal or punt? These are the kinds of decisions. Well, you know what?

What else is he doing if he's not calling the plays on either side of the ball? Look, the guy that came from Carolina, and I was a fan of the hire as well. I actually liked Ron Rivera, the coach in Carolina. And I looked at those losing seasons that he had, and a lot of them were without a quarterback that was healthy. I thought that their defense was always tough. I thought they were always disciplined as a team. And I thought truly the team, given the situation where nobody wants to come here,

I thought they kind of, for the lack of a better description, outkick their coverage and hiring him. But I asked him when he was on with me all of 2021 once a week on radio, if he's a different coach. Because it occurred to me that, you know, as a coach-centric guy, you know, he's got all the football operation responsibilities, including personnel, and he said that he is a different type of coach in Washington. He was much more and has been more of kind of a CEO coach where the delegation of responsibilities

to his two coordinators, I think was much more significant than it may have been in Carolina. I don't think there's any doubt about it. So the folded arms, by the way, I love it. And people are listening, this is what a real passionate Washington fan still sounds like. I can't get to that level anymore. You know that about me. I was just going to say, because maybe for people listening, you know, if they think I'm coming off, sounding negative, whatever. Sounds passionate.

The only reason is because I love this team and this organization and professional football so much. It's all I have. I think I checked at you one time during the year you were questioning how that, I'll, could I stay this engaged still? And I said, what is a man without a football team to love? Right? And you said something like that should be engraved

or not over how you play, but like and that's really how I think. Guess what, Kevin, it's the only team because you know, okay, I don't like, now my alma mater in basketball, like a lot of people love their alma mater. They've been terrible for 30 years and they've made a bunch

of bad coaching hires and it's you know, it's, it's, it's, and, like, I wasn't that connected necessarily to the coaching staff when I left because they came in middle of my career. My guy got fired after my, just saw four years. So, you know how that is. I had two great years for the new staff, and I ended up, you know, playing in the NBA for 10 years, but it's different. They didn't recruit me.

It was, it's just a different vibe. The guy that brought me there was like a second father to me, and then he was gone one day. You know, so I don't have that passionate love for that. We didn't have a football team in LaSalle. I can't even get into that. I grew up a Notre Dame fan because we were, you know, a Catholic household. That's the team we love. Fighting Irish, right? Lindsay Nelson, after an exchange of punts, we moved to further action in the third quarter. That's it. My baseball teams, they were good, better this year, man. Orioles were fun to watch this year, but look how bad they've been for how long.

And then the NBA, you know, I play for a number of teams, but it's like I don't, it's not like, you know, I follow the whole league is what I'm saying. I don't have, I root for style of play in the NBA because, you know, if I got to watch a game, I want to be entertained. So I like certain teams because of the way they play, but it's not like I sit there and if a particular team loses, I lose no sleep other than this football team. This is the one team that could do this to me. And that's why I found the way I thought. No, I think it's interesting because there's no doubt that for a lot of us, you know, we would have, I say the same thing now about Maryland basketball. What else do I have?

I mean, that is my number one passion. And it used to be a dead even tie between Maryland basketball and the skins. And I've said this many times, like for guys like you and Steve Sands and a lot of the guys that I know that are huge fans of the team, but haven't lived in the market forever, that your passion hasn't died. For everybody that's lived the day-to-day, disgusting run of the Snyder era, that's where two-thirds of the fan base essentially has been run from.

It hasn't been run from those that live outside the market. I've always had a theory on this, and this does not apply to you. But I think it applies to a lot of people when they move from their hometown to a new area, they like to fly their colors. They like to say, hey, I'm a D.C. guy. I'm a Skins guy. And they're going to die on that hill as bad as the team is. And it's kind of what they get labeled at in their new town.

That's not you, obviously. But I think a lot of people, that's why it's hard for them to give it up. But I think when you're here living the day-to-day of it, that it's been a slow burn over a long period of time. And I totally understand it. All right, let's finish it up by getting your Super Bowl pick. You know, since I'm such a diehard Washington fan, I can't possibly root for a Philadelphia. And so in this case, I don't have a dog in this fight. I got to go with who my heart is pulling for, and that would be Kansas City. So I truly believe the Eagles are the best team in the NFL, and I've thought that since probably about week four. That's the most complete team in the

NFL. So it's going to take some, I think, some magic and some spectacular quarterbacking out of Patrick Mahomes to do this. I think you'll know early. I really do, Kevin. I think if the Eagles are running the ball effectively in the first half, they're going to win the game. And if Kansas City can control their running game, the Chiefs win the game. Yeah, I think that's a really good point. I think sometimes I emphasize this too much about I'm going to know after watching two or three series, and sometimes that's really not true. But I've emphasized all week long that Kansas City took three scoring opportunities away from the Bengals in the first half. Spags dialed up a lot of pressure. They forced two, three-and-outs. They had an interception on their first four drives. They

held Cincinnati to six points, and ultimately those drives were super important at the end of the game, because Cincinnati got it going offensively. I think if Philadelphia, even more so than Cincinnati, Tim, if Philadelphia gets behind because Spagnullo's, you know, dialed up a couple of really good defensive possessions to start the game, stopping the run, and Kansas City's got the lead, I don't think Philadelphia comes back in the same way that Cincinnati does. I think they've got to stay in kind of front-runner mode.

And I know that they came back against Jacksonville. I know they came back against Indy, but this is Patrick Mahomes. So, yeah, on some level, it's like Kansas City, if you see chunk yards for, you know, Gainwell and Saunders and Hertz on read option keepers, and it's, you know, six yards here, eight yards here early in the game, it's probably a bad sign if you bet on Kansas City like I have. I think you've got to make Philadelphia's offense. you have to at least get to the point where you feel you can make them fairly predictable in how they have to play to come back.

I think it's very important Kansas City gets a lead in this game. And now some of that running packages that the Eagles have that just gut you because of Hertz's ability to tuck it and run himself. And that line is so dominant. If Kansas City can score in a couple possessions early in the game and play from the front, I think you make hurts a little bit more predictable in what he has to do, and I think that's where Kansas City gets them. But I really believe this, and I feel as a lot of people that turn out the way,

I think it's going to be an absolutely great football game. That's one thing I think we are going to get. These two teams are going to be entertaining. I think it's going to be close, and if it is close, I'm going to have to bet on my homes. Thanks for doing this, as always. I appreciate it. Yeah, no problem, Kevin. Any time. All right, that's it for the.

I hope you enjoyed Tim Legler yesterday on the NBA and today on the commanders. Back on Monday with a recap of Super Bowl 57. Ball is at the 42 of Miami, so this could be a play they talk about during the offseason. There's Bill Ernst Parker. Of course, he's made his defensive call. Let's see he'll win this battle of strategy. Riggin.