The Kevin Sheehan Show - Logan Paulsen + Terry Talk w/Joel Corry

Episode Date: August 20, 2025

Kevin opened by responding to an e-mailer who thinks Kevin was wrong putting John Wall on his "Bullets/Wizards Mount Rushmore". Kevin played and commented on Dan Quinn's answers to questions about why Terry McLaurin was absent from Monday night's game against the Bengals. Logan Paulsen jumped on to talk everything Commanders including a player who Logan thinks is on the verge of having a huge year. Joel Corry/Former NFL Agent was Kevin's guest to discuss the current state of McLaurin's contract stand-off with the team. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Cheehan Show. Here's Kevin. Two guests on the show with me today. Logan Paulson. Next section, we love having Logan on the show.

Followed by Joel Corey, NFL agent and current salary cap and contract expert with CBS Sports. We've had Joel on the show before, including, I guess, a month or so ago. He's back to talk about the Terry McLaren. contract, something that Dan Quinn was asked about today, specific to Terry's absence from the Monday night game. You'll hear what he said in this opening segment. The show's presenting sponsor is always, window nation, 86690 Nation, windownation.com if you need new windows. This from D.H. Don to open up the show. Don writes, Sheen, been a Bullets fan as long as you. No way John Wall's ahead of Gill.

Agent Zero is the best score the team's ever had. 60 is the record. Has to be ahead of John Wall. So Don was listening to the show yesterday in the wake of John Wall announcing officially his retirement from the NBA. Tommy and I had a conversation and I said, John Wall is on my Mount Rushmore of Bullets Wizards. Now that's Bullets Wizards in Washington. You know, the team moved from Baltimore in 73, 74. I'm not counting Gus Johnson, Earl Monroe, etc.

These are just from a list of the players. My Mount Rushmore is from a list of the players that have played in Washington. And that list, you know, is pretty easy at the top. It's Elvin Hayes, West Unselled 1-2, in any order you want to put them. They are the two greatest players in franchise history. I actually would have Elvin Hayes won, Wes Unseld, two. I think most of you, who are longtime fans, would probably put Wes one, the biggie number two. For me, Elvin Hayes is the greatest player in franchise history, followed by Wes.

And then I would have John Wall, and then I would have Bobby Dandrich, and that would be my Mount Rushmore of Bullets Wizards. By the way, several of you pushed back on me, including Bobby Dandritch on my Mount Rushmore, and you just said he didn't play long enough in D.C. Well, that is true to a certain extent, but this franchise has one championship, and this franchise wouldn't have any championships, if not for Bobby Dandritch. He was instrumental in 78, in the 78 run, and then very, very crucial to their run back to the NBA finals trying to defend their title in 79. I think that Bobby Dandridge is the most clutch player in franchise history. I think, you know, if you go back to 78, 79, so many moments. I mean,

I'll give you one right now. In 79 as the defending champs, they were playing San Antonio in the Eastern Conference finals, San Antonio back then a part of the Eastern Conference. Game 7 of the Eastern conference finals. The bullets, by the way, trailed in that series three games to one. Game seven at home at the Capitol Center. A very controversial game for the day. San Antonio had a 10-point lead with about four minutes to go in the game. And very strangely, but maybe not coincidentally, the power went out in the building and there was a long delay. And when they came back, the bullets made a huge run to tie the game and then eventually win the game on Bobby Dandrich's game winner, a baseline jumper with about five seconds to go. And famously, Dick Mata, the head coach,

got the players together calling a time out before the last shot. And the players in many years afterwards, including Bobby Dandrich, said that Mata didn't say anything for the first, you know, minute and a half of the two-minute timeout or whatever it was. And then at the very end just said, all right, throw the ball into Bobby, Bobby go win the game for us. He was so clutch. And this was against, you know, the George Gervyn, Larry Keenan, James Silas, Spurs, you know, Billy Paltz. And it was a devastating. stateing franchise loss for San Antonio because they had, you know, been part of the merger, ABA, NBA, NBA, and they were a good team with George Gervin.

Gervin never made it to the NBA finals. He was in the Western Conference Finals a few times and lost to the Lakers in the Western Conference Finals and was in the Eastern Conference Finals against the Bullets in 79. But Dandrich in that game seven, 37 points. And they won the game 107-105, and he had the game winner, which was for him, his patented, I mean, money shot, which was get to the baseline from about 12 to 15 feet out, and he was unstoppable. Had the long arms, had the high release. Bobby D for me deserves to be on that list. I understand the pushback to it, but the most clutch player in franchise history.

and totally responsible for the one title the franchise has. Without him, they would have not won in 78. For me, Don, you know, Gilbert is close. You know, he, along with Phil Schneer, would probably be the top two in terms of others receiving votes for my Mount Rushmore. You're probably right that Gilbert is the best score in franchise history. Um, it's close, you know, Elvin Hayes, Bernard King, Bradley Beale. By the way, I looked this up. Bernard King, who was only here for four years in total, all four of them, he was in his 30s.

Here's something that I bet some of you don't know about Bernard King in Washington. He is third on the list of most games of 40 or more in franchise history, with the players, just the players that played in DC. 13 40-point-plus games in 40 years. He's also got two 50-point-plus games as a Washington bullet. My God, was Bernard King a monster NBA score? I mean, this was at the end of his career, and he was still putting up 30, 40 on the regular. By the way, Bradley Beale is number one on the list, franchise history of the most 40-point games and the most 50-point plus games. Brad is number two all-time total points in franchise history behind Elvin Hayes. Gilbert is number one on the list of Washington Bullets, Washington Wizard players,

in terms of career points per game average. He averaged 25 a game for his career in Washington. But look, John Wall, John Wall, all-time leader in assists, all-time leader in steals. He is on the scoring list. Where is he on the scoring list? Fourth all-time in points. He's 10th all-time in defensive rebounds, a point guard. All right, 10th all-time franchise defensive rebounds.

But here's the number that I think really spells it out for John. In the advanced number of value over replacement, all right, that is kind of the war equivalent in the NBA. John Wall is number two, all-time in franchise history. That is the best advanced, you know, overall evaluation of players. and number one is Wes, number two is John Wall. Bradley Beals actually three ahead of Elvin Hayes, who is four, followed by Gilbert Arenas, who is five. I would also just say this.

Look, this is a franchise, obviously, with slim pickings in terms of all-time great players, all-time great moments, teams, etc. So, you know, John Wall would not be on the Mount Rushmore of 20 other NBA franchises, you know, with the career he had here in Washington. But he is because there's not a lot to choose from. But remember this too. You know, John's teams were, in my opinion, the most successful teams since the last championship team, the only championship team in 78. His teams won three playoff series. All right, they were much closer to an Eastern Conference finals appearance than any of the Gilbert, you know, Antoine, Karan Butler teams.

They only won one series that, you know, that 2005 and Gil had a lot to do with it with that game winner in game five in Chicago. But John's teams won three playoff series and his injury prevented them from going to one Eastern Conference finals the year that they lost to Atlanta and six. They lost a seventh in deciding game. This, The franchises only had one game seven since 1979, and that was in 2017, the game in Boston. And look, they were close against Indiana. They pushed the Pacers that first year they were in the postseason when John and Brad were super young and Neyne was great and Gortat was great and Trevor Reza was great that year. But they, you know, pushed Indiana to six games.

They would have never made the NBA finals as long as LeBron James was in the Eastern Conference. Same goes for Gill. But I think John's teams were better, and I think a big reason for that was John Wall. So I just would agree to disagree, Don. I would say John is a Mount Rushmore franchise player, and I think he should have his jersey retired without question.

And I think Ted feels the same way, too. We'll see. I don't feel the same way about Gilbert, But I do agree. I mean, that's 60 against the Lakers. The night, by the way, Kobe had 45 in that game. 147, 141 in overtime. By the way, the 60, there's a tie for 60.

Remember, Brad got 60. So Bradley Beal and Gilbert Arenas hold the record for most points in a game with 60. All right. Let's get to Dan Quinn. So before practice today, a practice that, First of all, Brian Robinson, Jr., excused from, you know, he'll get dealt, either dealt or cut, you know, pretty soon. I wouldn't cut him until after this weekend's preseason games.

That's just me, maybe. I don't think, like, they owe him, you know, an opportunity to catch on with somebody else. But real quickly, before I get to some of the stuff that Quinn said, Marcus Mariotta was back out there today. Brandon Coleman was back out there today. Trey Amos was back out there today. So that's all good news. All right.

So there was, you know, a few questions about Terry McLaren. I think after the game on Monday night, you know, and Ben said this to me on radio yesterday, that they just forgot to ask, you know, about Terry McLaurin. absence. But they got to it today, and John Kime kicked it off, and John asked Dan Quinn about the plan for Terry coming back to practice. And then what was the expectation for him on Monday night when he was absent? Here's what the coach said. The return to play part is that's the good news. So we're out of the rehab phase with Terry. His ankle's good. He's healthy. So now it's a, you know, return to play what goes into all that at that position specifically,

like the max speeds, the decelerations, the route tree of going through that. So that's kind of the good news where we're at. It's just, you know, conditioning and football and returning to play. And so almost all the guys are at some phase along that way. You're going to see McGee at practice. You're going to see Baptiste, you know, they just have kind of gone through that process as well where they're out of the rehab portion of their, you know, returning to play. And then it's back into like the football simulated work.

So, yeah, we're excited that, you know, he's back and getting better conditioning and getting things going. So if you're scratching your head wondering whether or not Dan Quinn answered the question about Terry's, you know, absence on Monday night, he did not answer that part of the question that John Kime had asked him. So John followed up again about, you know, Monday night and, you know, was it something that they expected him to miss? Here's what the coach said to that. Yeah, we're on the return-to-play format.

So it starts off his rehab and go through it again if you want. So Dan Quinn, not going there. He's not going back to Monday night to talk about Terry's absence. He had his plan on those questions for today. And the plan was to just talk about, you know, the return to play format. You know, it started with the rehab phase. Terry's through that. The ankle's good.

He's off pup. Now we're going to get into, you know, max speeds and decelerations and route tree stuff, et cetera. So that's what he was going with today. He was not going back to Monday night. Now, the next question about, Terry came from Ben Standing, and you'll actually hear the question. The mic actually for the questioners today, the beat reporters, wasn't working early with John Kime.

That's why I didn't play it, but it was working when Ben took the mic. And Ben didn't ask anything about Monday night, but he specifically asked about, you know, how Terry would participate in practice today. You'll hear the question. You'll hear Dan Quinn's answer right now. Now, Dan, just to clarify, will we see Terry today out here doing anything? Not at the practice portion. He had a big part of the run that went along today.

I'm not going to play where's Waldo guys, all right, moving forward. So just so we're clear on that. So Terry's return to play format is no different than any of the other players. And so I'm not jumping at you, Ben, but I wanted to make sure, like, the next question, the next question doesn't go down this line. he's healthy which is now a good step to like getting closer to being back on the field so you'll see that earlier than later i don't have a date circled on my whiteboard of my office this day for him this day for him but yeah the good news we're getting closer to that for sure

we're not going to play where is waldo the coach said uh yeah uh so you know he was trying to end any of the Terry questions. And when he said, you know, just to be clear, this return to play format for Terry is no different than for any of the other players. You know, the other players he had referenced earlier,

Jordan McGee, Giovante, Jean-Baptiste. I mean, come on, man. Of course it's different for obvious reasons. One of your players has been holding out, then holding in is demanding a trade and is in the midst of a heated and very contentious contract negotiation. So his return to play format is huge. And by the way, what I've heard

in these answers, especially this last one about him, you know, not being a part of the practice portion yet, you know, they'll get to that. He doesn't have the date in which Terry will hit the grass, you know, and put his perhaps body at risk with more of the harder parts of practice, which he has been holding in and avoiding for the last few weeks. You know, you don't really hear him say, you know, other than this is part of their return to play format, you don't necessarily hear him say, Terry's on board with all of this. Like, there's still the possibility that when they get to that point where they expect Terry to be participating in, you know, 11 on 11. And on the grass, as Cliff Kingsbury said last week, you know, that's going to be the moment

of truth. When they ask him to do something that he hasn't done and finding out whether or not he'll do it, because if he doesn't, that's where I said yesterday, you are now in a holdout situation. not a hold-in situation anymore. And how the team deals with that, I think, will be much different than how they have sort of accommodated him here over the first few weeks of training camp. There was one other Dan Quinn soundbite that I wanted to play for you, nothing having to do with Terry.

But Ben asked him about Chris Rodriguez. You know, we've all talked about how we like Chris. Rodriguez. Every time he's at an opportunity, he's impressed. But what is it? What is it about Chris Rodriguez? Why do they keep releasing him? Why do they keep signing him back to the practice squad? Why do they keep deactivating him? Whatever it's been. Why don't they give him more opportunities? And, you know, we've talked about there's something that we're missing, right? There's something there about Rodriguez last year, the year before, that, you know, we're missing from the equation here because the results should be more playing time, more opportunities for Rodriguez.

Well, the coach basically told you why Chris Rodriguez hasn't gotten as many opportunities in the past as he is going to get now. Here's what Ben asked him, and here's the coach's answer. And with Chris Rodriguez, what have you noticed the difference with him, maybe on the field and maybe getting ready to play football from when you first got him to now? Conditioning, for sure. This guy has changed his body and now is allowed, you know, the passing game. He's more fluid to go into that.

He's always been a strong runner. I was Chris coming out from at college at Kentucky to here. And you saw that in the way he got his opportunity to summon some four minutes to finish some games. But he's very consistent in his tracks and his run game. So I've seen that. What I have seen this elevated conditions. conditioning that allows him. Now there's more ops on punt.

There's more ops on other spaces. So he's really, by doing that, given himself more ops. And so he's off to a good start. Conditioning. That was it. That was the answer to the question that many of us had as to why Chris Rodriguez was not getting more opportunities and why they put him at risk of being taken by another team, whether it was on waivers or whether it was back on practice squads.

conditioning was his issue, and it sounds like he is in shape and in condition and is going to make this football team and have an opportunity to be its lead back, or at least part of a running back by committee approach to Brian Robinson Jr. no longer being on the roster, which we anticipate will be a reality pretty soon. All right, let's get to Logan Paulson. We will do that after these words from a few of our sponsors. So guys, if you're like me and you've basically been buying and wearing this same type of underwear for years, in my case, boxer briefs, same brand, same type for a long time, well, not anymore for me. I want to tell you about skims for men, something I've discovered

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And again, it's really easy to do. You can rate us up to five stars on Apple and Spotify. Spotify. That's preferable if you think we deserve it. And Apple gives you a chance to write a quick, you know, one to two sentence review. And that's big for us as well. Also following the podcast on Apple and Spotify. You just hit the plus button or the follow button. It's in the right-hand side of the screen on Apple, down the left-hand side on Spotify. All right, let's get to Logan. Logan's on X now on Twitter. At Logan Paulson. NFL. He's been on Instagram for a while, Logan underscore Paulson 82. He's got a podcast called Take

Command. He does a ton of media work for the team's website and the team's YouTube channel. You know, we'll talk about players. We'll talk about the things that you think, you know, perhaps you've seen that are translatable to the regular season. But I want to ask you just as a guy that's participated as a player in many training camps, has witnessed many others as a media member, what makes a good training camp? Yeah, I mean, that's, someone asked me this last year, and I actually have been thinking about it, I'm not kidding, for 365 days, because it is one of those things that's super subjective, right? Like, when I'm in a training camp, I wanted to be sharp mentally and physically.

I wanted to be kind of embodying this cultural identity, which I think Dan does an excellent job of maybe the best training camp I've seen and been a part of his Dan Quinn in terms of cultural identity. But there is that physical edge and that physical toughness, which is always so challenging to define. You know, so like this training camp, Dan is like kind of this modern coach and he takes really good care of the players and he's always kind of doing the data tracking and tracking tracking the high speed yards.

And so, you know, I'm around a bunch of old heads and they're always like, man, this is in a tough training camp. And you're like, are they doing enough? and they go out against the Cincinnati Bengals and run all over them with a great physicality and great mindset. So it's so hard, I think, to determine what is good and what is bad in the training camp. And I think you get your final result, honestly, week one or week two of the season, where everything starts coming together. I remember Doc telling me once, he attended, you know, sort of the preseason practices for Maryland when Ralph Freedgin was the coach there. And he came back and he said, I've never seen a pace to a,

practice like Ralph's. Everything was scheduled. Everything was scheduled literally to the second. People were always in motion, whether you were in the activity you were doing or on your way to one. It was so highly organized and so efficient and so up-tempo. Is that level of energy, of tempo, of efficiency, of organization, just speak to kind of the importance of something like that to the eventual output? I think it's helpful for sure. I think that kind of tempo, that organization, the confidence the players have and understanding the practice structure is important, but also, like, you can have the most efficient practice of all time, but what are we getting out of the

practice? You know, one of the things I think Dan does a great job is saying, hey, we're doing red zone, short yardage, we're doing two-minute, we're doing third down, we're in second and 10, and you get a lot of game-specific work. So I think, yes, the tempo, the urgency, the vibe of practice is absolutely important, and you want to see that and feel that when you're on the grass. But I also think, like, how is it structured and the things you're emphasizing are also a huge deal. And sometimes those are hard to discern for us in the media, on the media side, watching practice, but I think that's also a huge deal.

So, yes, but it's only a portion of what makes a great training camp. What do you think you can learn from this time of year training camp preseason games with 90 people sometimes on a field? Yeah, that's a really good question also, because I do also coach high school football and they go through like a very similar basic structure to the NFL actually. And what I would say is even I felt this even when I played

and obviously when I watched the team now is you can kind of get a rough approximation of where you think the team is at. But I think it's always important to remember that they haven't played against anybody else, right? they haven't played against good on good. So your left tackle might be kicking the butt of this poor right defensive end. And it just looks like, man, this guy's going to the Hall of Fame.

Then you get out there week one versus Miles Garrett and you can't block and you can't pass for check. None of your offense works. So I think it's a rough approximation of strengths and weaknesses, but you don't really get that final detail in terms of sentence structure, adjectives, adverbs, all that kind of thing until the season starts and comes around. So it's helpful, but it's definitely not the end-all-be-all to the evaluation process. All right. Let's talk rough approximations then.

What are the rough approximated strengths of this football team after the obvious, which is the quarterback? You know what's funny is, yeah, the quarterback, obviously, I think that's no rough approximation there. That one's pretty easy, pretty straightforward. I think all of a sudden this team has become sneaky deep. And what I mean by that is we were just talking offensive line on one of the Man Center shows. And you kind of last year, like, oh, man, if one of the starting five guys gets hurt, you're going to be in a lot of trouble. Now they've got a bunch of guys that have played a lot of football, Chris Paul, Trent Scott, Allegretti, Wiley. Wiley's played for the five

offensive line positions this camp and really had no drop off at any of the spot. He's played a left tackle in the preseason game and looks really like was gotten the eyes and crossed the T's, so good for him. And that's not a feeling I've had here in probably four or five years. And I know as a player, that's something you're always kind of concerned about, is all line depths. And so is the peak of the O line, maybe Philadelphia? No, but can we survive injuries? Can we survive some adversity there? Absolutely. And then you look to the defensive side of the football, and I think the rejuvenation or rebuilding of the secondary is one thing that really sticks out to me. And that starts to show up not only in the joint practice that shows up in the preseason game, but it shows up here

on the grass every single day. And so I look at that and I say, man, they've been a great job in in free agency, draft, through talent development of kind of building that out to a place where it's almost unrecognizable from last year. And then you go to the defensive line, and it's a very similar story. They said, we're going to get big, we're going to get strong, where you get mean. And I know those are kind of cliche terms to the defensive line, but you feel that when you're watching them against the Cincinnati Bengals, like Kinloff throwing guards to the ground.

Dietrich Wise making it hell for tight ends for opposing teams. Like, that group feels so different. And so in terms of rough approximations, I think there's been great improvement in terms of that stuff. I think there's been great cohesion in terms of coaching. They feel like they're playing faster. You mentioned some of those things from training camps. The quickness, the dexterity of the defense seems to be up. And I think all of those things, again, rough, but I think are all kind of trending in the right direction.

So what are the rough approximation concerns? So for me, I guess the rough approximation concerns is just, depth at wide receiver. We talked about depth. You know, I didn't even mention the running backs, running backs, tight ends, very deep, really consistent depth, guys, you can trust, offensive line depth. And all of a sudden, you look at the receivers. And, you know, Noah Brown, when he's been out here, has looked the part.

Devo Samuels who is out here has looked apart. And then after that, you know, Jalen Lane's kind of that fourth guy, if you're including Terry in the mix. And again, Zach Ertz has looked outstanding, but it makes you a little bit nervous about, hey, do we have enough offensive firepower. And again, you mentioned the ultimate trump card of that is Jayden Daniels. And we saw a little bit of how they're going to be using Devo Samuel. So it kind of quells some of those concerns. But, you know, if there's an injury or someone gets

nicked up, like, it gets thinner than it was last year. And I think people sleep on how effective Diami became, how effective OZ became late in the year, and not having those kind of depth pieces. Again, because I think the top is pretty good. Not having the depth pieces is ever so slightly a concern. Running backs. So Brian Robinson, Jr. obviously is done. I think we all understand that now. First of all, your level of surprise when this came about last week. You know what's funny? If someone asked me about this a couple days ago, and they were, basically, I said, like, that would not surprise me. Something like that would not surprise me. He was, oh, why is that? And I think it's just a testament to how well everybody else in the room has

been playing in training camp. Like Chris Rodriguez obviously had a great game the other night, but he's had a really great training camp. Bill Kroski Merritt has had a great training camp. He's been explosive. He's been twitchy. You know what Austin Echler can do. And Jeremy Riggles is so consistent, you can take it to watch by him. So if you needed to find space

in that room, and that's not to say B-ROM hasn't had a good camp, but if you needed to find space in that room, there is space to be had. And if you look at the people who have value in the room to the rest the league, like, who could you get a possible return on? It's Brian Robinson, you know? So I think it's really a testament to the guys in the room, the old line, how they've been playing, and how they can elevate the run game, and really the rest of the guys.

Because, again, like, it's, again, it's one of those groups that has become kind of sneaky deep all of a sudden. So how do you see this kind of playing out? How do you see them handling this, you know, once we get to the real games? Is it that they're in love with the seven? seventh rounder, Kroski Merritt, and he's going to be the guy? Is it by committee? And maybe it starts with Rodriguez because he's more experienced. Just tell me, you know, Debo's involvement, Echler's involvement. How do you see this playing out once we get to September 7th and beyond?

Well, I think, you know, you're talking about what, maybe 15 to 17 carries. So I think, you know, Debo Samuels gets four or five of them, some type of game plan touch where he's getting the ball in the backfield. it's a quick screen that is going to be an analogous to the run game. So there are some of the touches. I think depending on the week, depending on the game plan, you'll probably have a different starter early in the season. So, you know, if you want to get downhill with the runs, it's probably Chris Rodriguez, like we saw in the game the other night,

like such a great trap, wham, duo-type runner in terms of how he gets his shoulder square and is able to break tackles. And if you want to get a little bit more creative in terms of Frimmer runs, I think Bill Merritt, man, he has got some special acceleration, special deceleration, really nice ability to make people miss. And it feels like stylistically, you can kind of divvy up 10 touches there wherever you want to go.

And then Austin Eckler, I think, gets the rest of those five in terms of, again, like screens, draws, jet sweeps. And again, we've seen how explosive you can be. I think back to that explosive running had against Cleveland Browns last year. That is definitely still a club in his bag, despite being an older player at the position.

All right, let's flip it to the other side of the football. And I want to start by asking you specifically about Von Miller, because there hasn't been, I don't think, a lot of conversation about Von Miller since the acquisition, in part because he has not played nor should he play in a preseason game. But you know the player to a certain degree. You know what an older player looks like if he's ready to go. And look, the advanced numbers for him in Buffalo last year were very favorable.

Do you see him as a player that could at least replicate what he did last year? I think so. I mean, there's just something about, like, you know, I got to play against Vaughn, and he's one of the best players that I ever played against. And the thing that made him so challenging to play against was the movement skills, the bend, the strength, the ability to kind of know when to throw the right punch to make a boxing analogy. And he still has that ability.

You watch him at practice, and he's going against Laramie Tonsville. He's going against Connolly. He's going against Wiley. And Connolly and Wiley have played a lot of football. And so he just knows, hey, man, like he's leaning a little heavy on his outside hand. I can get this lift in here, work this dip, and get a pressure. And then also his ability to work with guys like Kinla on the interior and Duran Payne on the interior, I think are going to be really nice ways for him to kind of supplement some of his ability to win one-on-on-one.

So in terms of pass-rush ability, yes, I think he's still. got it. Is he what he once was? No, because he was, you know, the defensive player of the year for a while there. But I think now you see a guy who's got, he's a specialty pitcher and his specialty pitch is still very hard to hit. Frankie Louvo is 28 going on 29 years old. I think you can make the case. I did last year that he was pound for pound a top two or three player on the team. an incredible journey for him from essentially a special teams player to a second team all pro linebacker last year for our team. Do you see another level for him?

Do you see him going from very good to an elite household name defensive player in the league? Does he have that in him? Yeah, I think it all depends on Joe Witt Jr. and how they want to utilize them. I think if you can kind of speak to his skill set, I don't think there's a better blitzer in the NFL at the moment. I want to see him do as much of that as possible. You saw a little bit about how good he can be with that kind of stuff

in the Cincinnati game where he's got one-on-one matchups with the back and absolutely making those guys' lives a living hell. Again, there's some limitations from a coverage standpoint, but I think we all know we want him rushing the passers. So I do think like utilization, understanding what he's good at, finding good matchups for him, which again, Joe Wood Jr. and Dan Quinn have shown an ability to do at a very high level, I think that's definitely within the realm of possibility, and assuming he says healthy and plays ball.

He's not lining up, you know, opposite C.D. Lamb yet, but does Marshawn Latimore look like Marshawn Latimore, condition-wise, you know, health-wise, et cetera? Yeah, I've actually been pretty impressed with him in training camp. You know, he's had like kind of limited reps in the game, obviously. But I think you see a guy who's instinctive. He's still very strong in his upper body. His timing with his punch is very good.

The way he anticipates routes is very good. He's still quick with his fundamentals in terms of cuts. So, yeah, man, like I have not seen a DB in person like him here in a long time. You know, a guy that's just that consistent and that locked in. And it's funny, the other guy that's playing so well is Trey Amos. And so to see them with each other, you're kind of like, man, this outside cornerback duo could be pretty special. And that's one of the great disappointments of the preseason as far is that he didn't get to play in the preseason game Amos against Cincinnati Bengals because, you know, I'm kind of excited for fans to see how well he's been playing

in camp both those guys. So yes, I think Latimore seems to be getting healthy, seems to be on the right track, and seems to be just playing confident football at the moment. And, you know, talking with Fred Smooth, like confident DBs are dangerous DBs. And that's something I think is going to be really exciting to keep an eye on heading into week one. I had Smoot on last week. He loves Trey Amos. And I asked him, and I'll ask you, because he's told me this, before that, you know, the position of corner is a position that typically takes some time, unless you've got, you know, Sauce Gardner or Pat Sertan kind of ability and I guess confidence too. Is Trey Amos ready to play now? Or is he just a player that you think has the talent to

become a really good corner? You know, dealing, managing expectations for me is always a big part of this time of year. Yeah. But he has been, honestly, like one of the, if not the most impressive person at camp. Like, again, I think Fred Smoot's exactly right there. There are some time. Like, in terms of transition, I think the two toughest positions to transition to in the NFL are offensive line and cornerback because the caliber of the receiver and the caliber of the rusher in the case of the offensive line are so dramatically different than anything you're

going to see in college. So for him to come in and just be as confident and as consistent and as composed as he's Ben, you're kind of like honestly, like I was, every day I'm kind of waiting for the day where he takes a step back and he just hasn't done it, which is a testament to him in his process, man, because he's been incredibly impressive. So, yeah, like he's, he seems like he's a player. And again, like he, I haven't seen him against another team. I didn't go to the joint practice. But man, like the way he plays the football in practice, his composure, his communication, it all seems to be there. Now it's about whether he can carry that on to the live bulls.

and real games. And we talked about how this is like a rough evaluation. Like his rough evaluation during this phase has been excellent. All right. So that's probably a guy that would be an answer to my next question. But give me another guy since you've already given me Trey Amos. And that is, you know, the player that you have this hunch is going to make a significant jump, be a significant contributor, and most people don't know it yet. Yeah, I mean, I don't know if Javon Kinloff falls into this category or not, but he's a guy that, you know, when you watch him with the Jets last year, you watch those last three games, you're seeing a maturation,

you're seeing a maturity. And remember this guy, he's still a young football player coming off of a pretty significant knee injury a couple years ago, and he kind of feels like he's healthy, and then when he's out of practice, he just moves differently than other people at the position. And I, you know, I have the utmost respect for Duran Payne's athleticism. and what he can do, and just to see a man of Kinlaw's size and physical violence, I'm just like if this staff can get him in the right situations and speak to his skill set,

man, he feels like he could have a tremendous impact, not only on first and second down, but on third down as well. And again, he's got to stay healthy. The role is going to be very important there as well. But he's a guy that every day, very similar to Trey Amos, has kind of just followed this trajectory. You're like, man, is he doing that in practice? and I'd interview with Daron Payne during the Cincinnati game, and Duran's like, it's unbelievable playing with him

because every day he does something you didn't think was possible for a 320-pound man to do, and that's something that I can attest to having watched practice. You and I have talked about the importance of the defense making a big jump from where it was last year if they're going to even threaten what they did last year. It sounds to me like you have growing confidence that this is going to be a different defense this year.

Yeah, I do. You know, and I don't know if you can hear my voice. Like, I'm always reluctant to kind of make declarative statements like that, but they deserve the praise right now. Every data point that I've seen from them has been excellent. Like, I think even when you watch them in the Cincinnati game, you know, minus the off sides on fourth and four and the PI, which was very tick-tech by Noaigmonogony, like they were given Cincinnati,

which is one of the better offenses in the NFL, everything they could handle. And I think that's kind of what it's felt like in practice the last couple days. The other thing is, like, just how well they're going to be. they tackled, how will they fit runs, like with that starting group. So again, it's a rough approximation, but every test that they've been given so far, they seem to have passed and pass with flying colors now. It's just, can you do that week in and week out, you know, versus some of these high-powered offenses? Let's finish up with this. What is your current thought here on the afternoon of August 20th about the Terry McClearn situation?

man um you know i think something gets done but again this is the business side of the nfell and this is why adam peters makes you know way more money than i do because he's a smart man who understands how to maximize these negotiations and i think you know you and i've talked about this you know privately like i think both sides i think he wants to get something done i think terry ultimately wants to get something done it's just about whether they get to a point where they can reach that compromise and i hope it happens sooner rather than later but again I trust that Terry is going to be in good shape when he comes back. And again, yeah, hope everything gets done.

I think it will get done. Maybe I'm being optimistic, but that's my thought today. Take Command Podcast. Everything on the Commander's YouTube page and on the Commander's website. At Logan Paulson NFL on X now and Logan underscore Paulson 82 on Instagram. You're everywhere, but you're really not there. because you have all this stuff, but it's really not that important to you. No.

Thanks for doing this. And when do you open up high school-wise? When's the first game? This weekend or next? We have a scrimmage this week against Yorktown, and then we got Madison next week. So it's coming here, kind of up here real quick. All right, good luck with it. I'll talk to you soon.

Thanks for doing this as always. Thanks, Kevin. Appreciate it. All right. Let's get to Joel Corey, who will get into the, the details of what he thinks and maybe even what he knows about the Terry McLaurin standoff with the team. We'll get to that after these words from a few of our sponsors. If you've been thinking about new windows, all I ask is give Windonation a chance to come out

and give you a free in-home, no obligation estimate. It's really easy. Call them at 86690 Nation. Go to Windonation.com. They'll come out when it's convenient for you. you in an hour or less, they'll leave you with a quote. The current deal, 50% off all window styles, and you don't have to pay anything for two years. No down payment, no payments, and no interest until the year 2027. Best product, best customer service, best deal, easy to get an estimate. Mention my name at 86690 Nation or windownation.com. All right, joining me right now. is Joel Corey. Joel is a former NFL agent, sports agent. He's a salary cap expert with CBS sports. You can follow him on X. At Corey, 2R's, Joel, J-O-E-L. Love having Joel on the show,

especially when we have something local to talk about. But let me just start with this, because before we started to record this, Joel said, look, I just want to make one thing clear. I want to talk about bringing back the college all stars versus the Super Bowl champion game. And I said to you, I'm just old enough to remember that. Are you? Yeah, I vaguely remember that game. Could you imagine that today where you got to send your first round picks away from training camp? They got to go play some preseason game where they risk getting injured.

against the Super Bowl champion and someone did get hurt. Well, I'm sure people did. They played this game at Soldier Field. I mean, I remember as a young person, very young. I'm a child of the 70s. So, you know, for part of that, I'm looking it up right now to see the year it ended.

I think it ended because the game, there was like a lightning storm at Soldier Field and they sent everybody home. But it was the first football game that was back on TV, even though it was, you know, the end of July or whatever, but it was a big buildup to this game. No, I can't imagine. There's no way you would ever get the Super Bowl champion or any of the, you know, college all stars to participate. There's no chance. No, not at all. I just brought it up for the absurdity of the old stuff which used to go on. I'm looking at the Wikipedia page on this.

So, yeah, the last two years, the Steelers beat the College All-Stars 21-14 in 1975, and then because they went back-to-back the Steelers did. This was the first of their back-to-backs in the 70s. They beat the college All-Stars 24 to nothing in a game that was called in the third quarter due to inclement weather. I remember that. And then that was it. They did away with the game.

So there you go. I mean, Terry Bradshaw's out there with Swan and Stallworth and Franco Harris playing a bunch of college all-stars. Nuts that that actually took place. I'm sure they were thrilled to be out there as well. Yeah. Well, I mean, back then, like you texted me this earlier, 14 regular season games, six pre-season games, six of them. And if you played in that stupid college all-star game, there was seven. That's crazy.

And we'll be at two before we know it with an 18-game schedule, don't you think? Oh, yeah, it's coming. It's just the question of what year. Yeah. All right. I called you, I think, a month ago, and we talked Terry. And here we are, unresolved, and maybe even in a more contentious situation than it was before. with your agent hat on and with your media hat on as well, you know, size it up from where you are.

What do you think is going on? Things like there's a fundamental disagreement on value that the agent seems to be fixated on one or two particular deals, D.K. Midcalf primarily. And the commanders are more analytically driven in the previous regime. and the age of Kerry McCorn is their big hang-up. Now, I don't know who made the last offer, and whoever made the last offer is waiting for the other side to make a counter because you typically don't count of yourself. People today seem to be up in arms about McCorin's warning more than D.K. Medcalf.

Well, that's what the initial ask was always going to be when Medcaf signed his deal in March because of the same draft class and McCorn's been slightly more productive. I'm going to put it this way. Joel Siegel, prominent agent, represents Jalen Waddle. Jalen Waddle prior to this year was the highest paid number two receiver at 28.25 million per year. What do you think Joel Siegel would have been asking for initially if he represented D.K. Medcath. Same thing with Tori Dandy. Tori Dandy represents C.D. Lam.

C.D. Lam is a $34 million per year. And this is a year later for a guy who was also a second team all pro of the two, two of them, McCorn and Lamb. He's probably going to be asking initially for more than he got for CD Lamb last year. So I think you kind of need to look at that to kind of put it in perspective. Also, one of the things I want to know, which we don't know, is where the respective first offers were. I assume the commanders went first, and my typical tact was if you gave me what I thought was a low-ball first offer, I would give you something which I thought was ridiculously high in return. When both sides are so far apart, and let's just say your scenario is correct,

they came in low, perceived low, you went back perceived, you know, very high. How do you close that gap? What's the process? Well, if you get that out of the way, then the real negotiation can begin. But if you were trying to get 33, there's no way that Terry is going to get 33. You've got to ask for at least 35, 36. So let's put that out of the out there to begin with. Now, you've got to remember that carry, the agent works for carry, not the other way around.

Right. But a lot of times the player kind of gives the agent wide latitude to get something done. So he kind of has shape, center influences the perception of his client. Now, that being said, if the team is at a certain level and they just make incremental progress on their offers, one thing I would probably ask if they're talking about age a whole lot is what do you expect Terry to do at 31, what do you expect them to produce at 32 and 33, maybe 34, depending upon the length of the contract, and try to pin them down on that production, and then look at the numbers they're talking about production-wise and how receivers at various levels of pay perform.

answer that? If I ask them directly, they probably would if we're trying to get something done. Okay. And that would kind of help me try to bridge or try to find some common ground. Let me just cut to the chase on the player side because, you know, it's very possible the team did, you know, start off with something that could be described as lowball. But from the player side, you know, as you kind of look at this, from the outside, but with your former agent hat on. Do you think Terry's ask is too much? One, I think he's got to change his expectations. I understand why DK is what he wants, but you also have to start looking at what's your alternative to getting a long-term deal.

He'll be 31 next year. The commanders have a franchise tag in their back pocket if they want. want to use it. The way the 120% of prior your salary provisions work, it's primarily based off of your cap number. So it's going to be slightly over 30 million. It's going

to be about $30.2 million. It could be as high as $30.45 million because then you'd have to add back in his Pro Bowl incentive if he's original ballot pro bowler again. So that would jump up another $250 on the cap. So you've got

to look at that. And then if you play out the year, year, year older, people already concerned about your age. It's not going to get any better. Yeah. Right. I mean, what you just said is, and I want you to comment on this,

to tell me if I'm off or I am, you know, in the ballpark. What I've been saying is, look, if Terry doesn't get this contract extension now, and let's just say it ends up at 20, and 50 million guaranteed. You know, the team would come up to 28. Terry would cave to 28, but it would include $50 million in guaranteed money. That opportunity for that payday doesn't increase next year or the year after.

It may be the last and best opportunity for a big payday he has in his football career. Am I right or wrong? you know, unless he does something outstanding where he sets career highs, then that may change the equation a little bit, but still, you're going to have a certain number of teams, which would be, well, we're looking at your age and we don't really want to pay you what you're looking for. Although I did help represent a receiver that had six, 70-catch, thousand-yard seasons in his 30s, Jimmy Smith. it can be done. But that being said, he's not going to get younger. And the franchise tag exists if he has one of those big years in which, you know, 30 million is not 50 million. Yeah, so it is kind of damned if you do, damned if you don't. But if he puts up another, puts up a career caliber, career year caliber season,

then he can start saying, you know what, I'm more the exception than that. the rule, kind of like a Derek Henry. So you need to start coming off of this age thing a little bit more. He can already say that today because he's been remarkably consistent since his rookie year. It's a small variance in what he does regardless of who throws in the football. So his whole point would be, yeah, I get the whole age thing, but I'm not showing any signs of slowing down. But I also understand why the commanders would be looking at it. You're on, you're hitting the wrong side of 30, and odds are they're going to be the mission return. So predict how this thing gets resolved?

Well, I had an article last week, which was thinking outside the box. I read it. I read it on the air. Yeah. Oh, but it was, oh, you did, but it was a unique compromise. You make a bet someplace compromising in between salary escalator, de-escalator. Oh, that wasn't the one. I read. I'm sorry, not to interrupt, but I read that, you know, almost pain, very painful, you know,

letter that could get written if indeed he held out under contract and didn't show up. Yeah, that's why nobody ever leaves. Nobody ever leaves him. Right, right. Yeah. It's because the ramifications are too severe. But this was a salary escalator, de-escalator concept. Let's see who wins the bet. you have to compromise someplace in the middle. I cited several things as data points, which could be a compromise point. The average of the top 25 receivers last year, highest paid receivers was basically $27.25 million per year. Average of the 15 highest was over $30.5 million. For the average of the top 20 was $28.75 million, which is in line with where T. Higgins is the highest paid number two receivers.

So both sides are going to have to compromise. If the lower you get on the average, the more upside and how this thing would realistically work, you'd have to build into the contract for Terry, in my opinion. So let's just assume right now you're his agent. It's, you know, you guys are stuck on the D.K. Metcalf deal. The team sitting there. Stop here right there. We can stop right there.

If I'm the agent, I'm not stuck on D.K. Metcalf anymore because I know I'm going to have to move because that was more what I would want. Because to me, you have to come into a negotiation. What do you want? What would you like to get, which is less than what you would want, and what you can live with? So there's different points on the spectrum. D.K. Medcaf is more the wish list. So do you think that Terry and his agent are still stuck on the wish list? I hope not.

I hope the commanders aren't equally stuck where I've heard they've been, which is the $25, $26 million per year range. Because neither one of those is really appropriate if you're trying to get something done at this point in time. When the team says to you the agent in this situation, look, we don't have to offer anything. Terry's under contract this year. What we've offered is because we like Terry, we want a contract extension. It's not something we have to do.

We're comfortable with him playing on the final year of his deal, and then having the flexibility if he has the kind of year we all hope he has to use the franchise tag next year. What's your answer to that? Teams typically don't go. We don't have to offer you anything because that kind of breaks things down. They will threaten the franchise tag, which is a whole different story. But once the team starts to bring up the franchise tag, typically an agent will go if you're willing to pay him $30 million next year, then that could be an appropriate place for us on a long-term deal.

Because it won't apply in this case, but when you start bringing it to the franchise tag, typically you go, all right, I could get tagged twice. It would be 120% the next year. You average two tags and start, and the agent starts using that as a baseline. They won't tag them two times. They won't tag him 31 and 32. So you would look at it, well, you're saying franchise tag you're comfortable, then 30 could be a number we should be able to do is where you start going when they would start talking franchise tag.

At what point if there isn't progress made towards what you described as we can live with number, do you just say get into camp, play this final? year the deal or take the offer that's on the table. Actually, what I would be doing is done by agents, but it's technically not legal, I would be having hypothetical conversations with other teams about a highly productive receiver who's about to turn 30, what would you see his market should he be available, just to gauge where things are? And I'd have to factor that into my calculus. The extent I could get teams to be candid with me. Some will, some won't in those situations. You also have to start painting the

picture of what are your options if you can't get what you want. And that would be, how comfortable are you playing out this deal? Let's try to get the offer on the table. The best we can get it would be another one. Or do you have a certain number you don't want to go below? And if they don't get up to that number, then we're going to play it out. You have to start exploring what your other options are. On that first part of that answer,

what do you think the answers from other teams would be specific to this Terry McLaren's situation? I would think most wouldn't want to pay him, but you only have to find one. I remember doing deals in free agency with smoking mirrors, where there wasn't a good chance to come back to your current team, and there's not a whole lot of interest, and you find one team that's willing to do something which you want. So you would have to keep exploring the different teams, looking who's going to have need receivers next year,

who has a need this year, and hopefully you get teams to talk to you. Tampering goes on all the time, whether it's at the combine or not, but that would be one of the things you have to do to try to get more information. How does it manifest itself into something positive if the team's not willing to trade the player? Well, if you know that there's a team or two that would be willing to play them, then you may be more willing to play it out.

You know what? Unlike this offer, These two teams are going to need receivers next year. They like my guys. As long as they're going to fall off a cliff, I'm good. But the team that he's under contract with could still keep them via the franchise tag. Yeah, you'd run that risk. But if you get positive feedback, then you're comfortable taking that tack.

It all depends on what you hear from other teams. Or you may have a client. It all depends off of the client as well. He may say, you know what, I want to be here. I like what we're building. When push comes to shove, let's do the best. deal possible. You take your, you take your marching orders from your client, typically. So you have to start asking him and probing him as well. Obviously, he's going to take some of his cues from you,

but ultimately you work for him, not the other way around. So when you said, you know, you're going to get to a point at some point where you have to, you know, discuss the options. I think, you know, correct me if I'm wrong, but the options would be play it out on your current deal. holdout or take the offer the best and final from the teams. Am I missing one? Yeah, you can propose another alternative assuming that, well, you could count of yourself at that point if you make the last offer. If there are 33, I can't imagine that was the last offer they made. But yeah, you could try to counter yourself to try to broker a deal at that point in time. But you're definitely not going to hold out.

But you're not leaving camp because it's a high-stakes game of chicken with that five-day letter where they get injured season and your contract toll. So that would require mutually assured destruction on both sides because they don't get a guy they need to make a Super Bowl run. And he's no better off than he is right now because he's still on the contract in 2026. So you start finding to come up some sort of compromise. at some point you're probably getting very close to that time. Although deals can be done in a very compressed manner.

I remember when Khalil Mack was traded, that deal was from start to finish done in 48 hours. And that made the highest pay defensive player or non-quarterback. There was both at the time. What do you think Terry deserves? What do you think the right number is? The right contract? I see the right number is above T. Higgins for this reason. Terry's a one. T. Higgins on a lot of teams is a one. He's not a one on the team he plays for the Cincinnati Bengals. So he's setting the number two market. I get that he's younger, but that's a whole different market. That's $28.75 million per year. So to me, you have to get above that level. And then after that, it could become how is the deal?

structured. The better or more player-friendly, the structure, to me, the more leeway you have in the average. But to me, that's the point I would want to be above. I'd ideally to want to have a three is the first number, but I can live with something above T. Higgins under the right circumstances where if you're concerned about whether I'm going to have a significant decline, I get a lot of upside based on what I do, where I can get closer to where I really wanted to be, because I'd have to earn it and still be productive. Yeah, that could be something where I can work with that. What do you know, if anything, about Adam Peters, who is negotiating as a general manager,

his first ever really big deal? He was not the negotiator in San Francisco. that's Brian Hampton and Progmarantha. But one thing you have, which is never good, being the first big deal with a new regime because they don't want to set the tone that they were taken advantage of by agents, the other agents are going to think we can fleece these guys.

So that's part of the dynamic. And that also would apply to if you had some sort of holdout, that you never wanted to be the first holdout for a new GM because he doesn't want to establish that precedent. So it's a social-related concept. So that's something that McCorn has to contend with. But at the same time, there are people in that locker room, I'm sure, looking at this going, wow, they're treating Terry.

They're getting Terry. There's hard of a time to get a deal done. What are they going to do with me? So even if the commanders do all of a sudden have more flexibility than they wanted to have, they've already established a tone that they can be tough negotiators. Yeah, that's interesting stuff there at the end because the precedent I've heard is a big part of what they don't want to, with, you know, so many potential deals next year, a Tunsell deal, a Latimore deal, a Debo deal. I mean, if he has, you know, a big year.

You know, and then, of course, two years from now, the deal with Jaden Daniels. But even just next year, how busy they may be Frankie Louvo, you know, would be entering the final year of his deal. So they'd probably want to lock him up. They do not want to set that kind of precedent that they can be, they can be fleeced or they can be, you know, kind of pressured into it via, you know, a holdout, hold in situation. Joel. Well, the one you're out to worry about is Jayton Daniels because that one's basically going to be if last year's in indication,

here's a blank contract, fill it in. Yeah, that one should be easy if he has another two years like the year he had last year. You know, I just saw something that you literally just posted on CBS Sports, your latest column. And I haven't asked you about this. And it's totally applicable to this

Terry situation. So let me take a quick break, and then I promise you, I'll just ask you about what you wrote today, and we'll wrap it up. We'll do that with Joel Corey right after these words from a few of our sponsors. You know, I'm just seeing something that you wrote about, you know, just a little while ago, and it just sort of hit CBSSports.com, but you wrote a story called Holden Fatigue, and some the options teams can utilize when dealing with this kind of, you know, recent phenomena of hold-ins. And it's interesting because I was actually talking about this the last two days, that with now

Terry off the Pupp list, he didn't post for the game on Monday night, but it looks like the team may have been okay with that. But what happens in this ramp up period when they say, okay, it's time for you now to get onto the field. and play some football in the ramp-up process leading up to the opener. So just give me the crux of this latest thing that you've written about, you know, hold in fatigue. Well, if he goes back to practicing, then that's an odd issue. At some point, players will decide, well, I've got to get ready to play,

and they know how long they need to get ready to be as effective as they can be. Now, if you hold in off a pup once the ramp up period's over, the first step of team is probably going to do if they're not going to be a willing participant to a hold-in. It sends you a letter saying they expect you to fill your contractual obligations. They're going to cite paragraph two, which is the employment and services paragraph in the NFL player contract, which in relevant portion states he, meaning player, agrees to give Beth, best efforts and loyalty of the club, go report and promptly participate in mini-camp, pre-season training camp, meetings, practice sessions, all games, whether regular, regular preseason or postseason. Then they're going to state that you can be disciplined under Article 42, which covers

club discipline, setting out probably a specific participation expectations, and what the ramifications could be for fail. to comply. Eventually, it could lead to being fined or suspended for conduct detrimental to the team. And the maximum discipline for conduct detrimental is a one-week fine and a suspension of four weeks. That's the maximum discipline. Now, if you don't fully participate or miss a practice, the team is going to say we could find you in 2025, $16,489 every time that happens. If you commit multiple offenses on the same day, then the amount is capped at $34,919 in the preseason. You don't get fined separately for each additional infraction.

And the regular season, that's fine is $47,142. So the team does have some things they can do. Usually, the better the player, the less likely they are to take these types of actions. If you look at the Bengals last year, with Jamar Chase, they did nothing. The head coach was talking about, well, we have some sort of plan in place for Jamar Chase. They were negotiating, didn't work out of deal. Eventually, he decided to play on his rookie contract.

Yeah, that's kind of, you know, look, the team was clear. accommodating, right, with the hold-in and the pup and the ankle and the whole thing. And even Quinn today, you know, didn't get into the specifics of the ramp-up. So I guess it would come down to whether or not the team was okay to continue to sort of accommodate him and not take those steps. Or if the frustration level reaches a certain point and they're like, you're under contract, we expect you to perform, they could go the route that you just described, which would get ugly. Yeah, that was Rochond Smith three years ago with the Bears. It got ugly. He started, well, he was on Pupp to begin with,

and came off right around the first preseason game, was holding in, contract talks broke off around the time he came off Pup. He accused them of bad faith negotiations, asked for, trade, but eventually after the second preseason game, he decided to get ready for the season. There was so much damage done, they traded into the Ravens in the middle of the season.

It worked out great for him. He's been an all-pro. Three years, for the two-and-half seasons, he's been, first-team all-pro, two-and-half seasons he's been in Baltimore, and before he played a playoff game with Baltimore, they gave a new contract,

maybe the first $20 million per year off-ball linebacker. The Bears had to go out and go out get Tremaine Edmonds can pay him close to Smith, and he's not the same player. Interesting stuff. Let's hope that those moments somehow are avoided and something gets done here. Thanks, Joel, for everything. Appreciate it, as always.

Sure, any kind. At Corey Joel on Exxon Twitter, that'll link you to some of the stories he's been writing about a lot of the holdouts and a lot of the detail in terms of what teams can do. I thought that last part was really interesting. If it were to turn ugly with Terry not participating and trying to continue to just hold in and not get fined, the team would have the ability to potentially fine him and or suspend him. I hope it doesn't get to that. But these are the things that could be coming.

At this point, I'm not going to discount anything as a possibility based on where we are from where we started. All right, that is it for the day. Back tomorrow with Tommy.