The Kevin Sheehan Show - Max Was Mad

Episode Date: June 23, 2021

Kevin joined today by Al Galdi to discuss last night's crazy Nats-Phillies game. At 32:30, the boys shift to Washington Football and talked a ton about Taylor Heinicke and more. Kevin finished up the show with one of the biggest "public" betting losses in awhile and something he never knew about an NBA rule. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Cheyenne Show. Here's Kevin. What is this? And Scherzer's not happy about this. Well, just after that last out,

Scherzer took his hat off and rubbed the back of his head with his hand. Maybe he had an inch. He's sweating a lot. And now Davey Martinez is coming out. And I think they want to check Scher again. Scher just threw his hat down on the ground. So go ahead, check him.

Check everything. This is a little gamesmanship here by Girardi. No doubt. Davy Martinez is not happy. Max is taking off his belt now. And Max is saying, I got nothing. He's holding his hands up in surrender. And Davey is really livid right now.

And now he's giving it to Gerardy. And Gerardy's going to come out. Davy Martinez is challenging Gerardy, and Gerardy's coming out to the top step. And Max is steamed right now. And that was last night. What a game. One of the more dramatic Nats games of the year.

By the way, they won again, three to two. Brad Hand loaded up the bases in the bottom of the ninth, got out of it, and the Nats have won eight of nine. They're tied for second now in the National League East, four games behind the Mets, tied with the Braves and Phillies after the three-two win over Philadelphia. Eric Fetty, who hasn't given up an earned run in his last three performances, he pitches this afternoon. but last night's game was not necessarily about the final score.

It was about what happened during the game with Max Scherzer. And so I am thrilled to have on the show with me today. My good friend, Albert Galdi. Al Galdi from the Al Galdi podcast, which you can get wherever you get a podcast. He's doing an excellent job with the podcast. And he's always been my go-to when it comes to baseball anyway. especially the stuff that Tommy just sort of, you know, shoes away like it's not super important to him.

But, you know, before we get to what happened last night, first of all, let everybody know how you're doing. I know a lot of people that are listening to this podcast are also listening to yours, which is great. But how's it going so far? Yeah, going well. I appreciate it, man. Doing the podcast, the Algoldi podcast, new episodes for which are out. Monday through Friday by 5 a.m. So it's out early in the morning, new show every weekday.

And we do a ton on the Washington football team, but also a bunch on the Nationals and the Nationals and the Capitals and the Wizards and the Terps and the Hoyas and all the local teams. So it's been a lot of fun. It's gotten a lot of great feedback. We've had a lot of very good guests. And you're right. I get a lot of people who say I listen to your pod and Sheehan's pod. So a lot of double-dippers in that regard.

But nothing wrong with that. No. I appreciate you having me on. Well, that's what we want to do. We want to have them listening to both, especially when football season, begins, but Galdi really at the station forever, was everybody's go-to when it came to, you know, baseball, especially, you know, the strategy of baseball and the things that are going on in the sport. And before we get to what happened last night, I really want to talk about just what's

gone on here over the last week. And, you know, the rules that have been, I think, in place, but are now going to be enforced and why they're being enforced. Give everybody who's not completely familiar with what's happened with the sticky, you know, the substances and the spin rates and, you know, what that's meant to pitchers, advantages over hitters this season and in recent years. Tell everybody why baseball did what they did. So these rules have been on the books forever. The reason baseball all of a sudden woke up to this is really twofold. A, offense is down again, and you're not seeing run scored. If you look across baseball, not that batting average is a great stat to look at,

but batting averages for a lot of guys are way low. I know the nationals have gotten a lot of attention for their struggles offensively this season. The truth is they're far from the only team that that offensive struggle. So baseball feels a need to juice up the offense. But the other thing is, and this is almost always the case when it comes to baseball. A bunch of people wrote articles about this being a problem. This is exactly what happened with the PED stuff. Tom Broduce in May 2002 wrote a big article for Sports Illustrated, Ken Camaddy, and that truly would launch the PED crackdown in MLB.

Along the same lines you've had it with the Houston Astros stealing scandal, the athletic wrote a big article not that long ago. That's what blew the lid off the Astros cheating scandal. And now with this sticky stuff, stuff, There was a recent s.com article, others have written articles. And so baseball gets back to do a corner of, oh, yeah, there is a problem. And oh, yeah, people are writing stuff about this. I guess we ought to do something.

And so baseball says, well, we have these existing rules. Why don't we try to enforce them? But the problem here is that MLB is doing this in season. This wasn't something that was addressed in the off season. That's now all of a sudden, in the middle of June, baseball says, yeah, starting with games on June 21, we're going to enhance enforcement of these rules. there are all kinds of pitfalls, as we saw in game one for the Nationals, as they began their portion of the season with these enhanced rules.

And so it's a complete mess. You have the players already ripping Manfred over this. You have already things coming up like Joe Girard, using this as gamesmanship. So it's a real problem. And I think everyone kind of saw this coming when these enhanced enforcement were out. Al, what these new, these new sticky substances, and I don't know how new they are, but all, you know, the spider tack and the grip dip tack that's, you know, Pelican something sticky. What's working so much better now than before, which has brought this to everybody's attention? I think it's people getting more experienced with using it, the spider-tacking, people being able to manipulate it when it comes to something like spin rate.

See, Spin-rate really has blossomed into something of true importance in recent years, and this is a function of the analytics. Nobody used to ever really look at spin-rate. I mean, I think conceptually pitchers knew what spin-rate was, but it wasn't a kind of thing that was tracked. Now it's almost as important as velocity. It's not just as it doesn't just matter how fast you throw baseball. It's what the baseball is doing while it's traveling from your hand to the catcher's mid. And so spin rate is really important. And if you can generate massive spin rate, if you can generate great movement on your pitches, if you can do what's called tunneling your pitches where all of your release points are the same,

but depending on the pitch or throwing the baseball does something totally different. the ramifications of that are huge. And there are guys who have been able to master this and change the courses of their careers. Like Trevor Bauer is a good example of this. Trevor Bauer wasn't this great pitcher. Trevor Bauer has become a great pitcher because he's really applied himself when it comes to this stuff.

And he's actually been one of the more vocal people ripping baseball over these enhanced enforcement. But I think it has to do with, again, this heightened importance of spin rate and also, you know, guys developing, you know, it's almost like these concoctions that people are coming up with, like, people combine spider tack with sunsand lotion, or, you know, they combine their sweat with the spider tack. You know, everyone's got something different. There was a clubhouse manager for the opposing clubhouse with the Angels who recently got fired, who actually named names. One of the

names he named was Max Scher, which is interesting. But this guy was cooking up his own potion that he was handing out the players. So like the PED stuff, everyone's kind of got their own formula. But again, I think this comes back to offense is way down. And basically, ball was like, hey, we ought to do something. And so that's what caused all this. I just want to learn more about this. So is it more about the potion, as you just described, or is it more about pitchers in recent years, understanding, you know, more technically how important spin rate is, and they're throwing the ball with more of it? Because, you know, and I read this a few weeks ago, a fastball with a high.

spin rate, as an example, you know, appears to have a rising sort of look to it for the hitter. And then with change-ups, like a lower spin rate, I think, is more important because it creates more movement. Is it an understanding of what spin rate does, or is it the potions that they're trying to outlaw? No, it's the understanding. Because the potions, I think it's only so far you can go with the potion. I think it's this understanding. of, hey, if you want to really take your game as a pitcher to another level, the spin rate stuff is where it's at. And what you see now in baseball is analytics, it's no longer just something the Oakland

A's do or something the Tampa Bay Rays do. Everybody isn't on this now. And it is so much in arms race, you really can't overstate it. And so as you have all these front offices now, with all these, you know, 20-somethings at an Ivy League schools, and these front offices have beefed up their end. analytics staff, everyone's looking for that competitive advantage. And so the spin rate stuff has become a really big thing. And, you know, it's not the spin rate.

I'm kind of oversimplifying it when I say that, but that's like a big part of it. And so this, and so also what you have, too, is players are more open to this stuff, you know, because there was a resistance from players to a lot of this stuff for a while. And now as, you know, younger players come into the game, they see, hey, this analytic stuff works. There are countless examples now of people changing their careers. by getting in on this stuff and learning how to do this stuff better. And so I think that has been a driving force behind a lot of this.

So if it's more that and less about these substances, are we going to see different results with the enforcement of these rules? I don't know. I don't think MLB those. I think MLB said we have to do something. I think, you know, logically speaking, they say, well, if we literally don't allow anything other than the Rosinvast, which is what MLB is trying to do here. That can only help batters from a standpoint of pitchers not being able to manipulate baseballs

as pitchers have been able to do. But there are unintended consequences with this, and that's one of the things that Max Dursor talked about on Tuesday night, because there's been this belief of you have to let pitchers use something so that they can better control baseball. Max Dursor talked about the plate appearance of Alec Bome in the middle of the game on Tuesday night, where Max nearly bean, boom in the head. Because it slipped.

Yeah, right, and that was Max's point. Now, there's sort of a tight roll if you have to walk here of, well, you want to allow pitchers perhaps to use something, but not too much of something to where they can manipulate baseball to where they just totally dominate batter. So what is that middle ground? We don't know. This is part of why you do this in the offseason and not in the middle of June.

I think there's a belief of maybe there's some substance agreed upon by the teams and the players that you can say, hey, this is a permitted substance you can use because it seems like you need to let guys do something more than just the rosam bag. But I obviously can't let people use, you know, Vaseline plus suntan lotion, plus spider attacks, plus everything else to come up with these weirdo ways of throwing baseball. And there's another thing too here, and that is everyone has known that this has been a thing for years. If you go on YouTube, search Yadda or Molina ball sticks to chess per sector. In 2017, there was a Cubs Cardinals game in which a pitch literally stuck to the chest protector

of the Cardinals Patcher, Yadda, or Molina. And nobody wanted to talk about this. Who threw the pitch? I forget the pitcher. I'd have to look it up. Go ahead. It was a Cardinals Cubs game. It was April 2017.

And the ball sticks to Melina's chest protector. And, you know, people make jokes about it, and they go, ha, ha, ha, how did that happen? And then nobody did anything about it. Nobody thought about, why is that? Why would a baseball stick to a catcher's test protector? Is this a miracle of physics? Or maybe just maybe, was there a bunch of stuff on the baseball that caused it to do that? Three years earlier, April 2014, Yankees Red Sox, Michael Paneda, who was with the Yankees

at the time, got ejected for literally having a swab of pint tar on the right side of his neck. He got suspended for 10 days. You never heard anything about that after that. Why did he have all this pint tar on his neck? What would be the reason for that? Again, it kind of just got buried. Baseball looked the other way. This is exactly what happened with the PEDs. And now you essentially have this day of reckoning here, and it's a problem. It's a real mess.

Rosen isn't enough, is what you're saying. But they've got to find some sort of middle ground from what they've been using that is increasing spin rates to a point where batting average, whatever you think about that as a measure. is at one of its lowest, you know, rate averages in forever. And we're seeing, you know, incredible pitching performances, incredible ERAs, etc. Will they get to a middle ground? And why did they do this in the middle of the season? It seems like very few sports would implement this thing or start to enforce something like this in the middle of a season to sort of change the direction of the season if it does that.

And as you said, you know, you don't know, they don't know. But what is the middle ground and why did they do it in the middle of the season? Yeah, I mean, I think there is a middle ground, and I think they will find the middle ground. I just don't know that they'll find it right now in the middle of June. Like, I think this is probably something you should do in the off season, which, by the way, is another conversation because there is a looming CBA Armageddon with baseball. The owners hate the players. The players hate the owners.

The players crush Manfred all the time. The toxicity that exists between the owners and the players of baseball. association. This is reaching like, you know, 1994 Bud C. McDonald's fear level. So I don't know that they can agree on anything right now, which is maybe part of the issue here, too, that MOB was like, we don't want to deal with these people.

We know we can just go ahead and implement this increased enforcement. So we'll go ahead and do that. And if they want and complain, that's their problem. But of course, like we said, there are unintended consequences here. I would like to think, though, they can reach the middle ground. The other thing, too, I think about is,

you know, these umpires are being put in near impossible spot. Umpires have a lot to do as it is. Now that they have to act as, you know, cops and chemists and midgame inspect pitchers multiple times, I mean, do the umpires know what to look for? If you detect sticky stuff on a pitcher's arm, like, is that sweat?

Is that spider attack? Like, what is that? Is that something else that he had to put on his arm? Like, how do you know exactly what you're feeling and touching? How do you know exactly? what to be looking for. And the answer is you don't. And so what I wonder about this, too, is, is M.O.B. going to do a thing, which is done previously, which is initially there's heightened enforcement. And then, like, a few weeks later, it's kind of forgotten. A few years ago,

MLB made a big deal of enforcing another existing rule, which is called the batters box rule. You have to keep a foot in the batters box at all time, with the exception of, like, multiple potential exceptions. And the point of that was, hey, these games are slow. too long? Yeah, we got to speed this up. What's a baseball game now? Let me know the next time the batters box rule is enforced. It isn't in force. It went by-bye. Everything regressed right back to the way it had been. And I do wonder about that with this if, for now it's a big thing and a big show, but a few weeks from now, it'll kind of be forgotten. We'll see. All right. Let's get to what happened last night, but specifically before, or big picture,

before we get to what happened specifically. What are the rules right now? Are the umpires required to check once, twice, or not at all? Is it based on their discretion? And then what can the opposing manager do to get the umpire to check again like Joe Girardi did last night? Is that at the umpire's discretion? Can the manager do it multiple times?

What are the rules around this? Yeah, so umpires are required to check starting pitchers and release pitchers. The sort of the edict is you want to do it in a way that doesn't interfere with the game. So you really want to do it between innings. And, you know, they say that they can do it quickly and efficiently. Again, we'll see on something like that. Managers can request for checks, but it's not like managers dictate the checks. It's still on the umpires to execute the check.

But the kind of the gist of it is if you're a starting pitcher, you expect to be checked probably at least twice and maybe even more. The umpires at any moment can check a pitcher for any reason. It's on the umpires. They sort of have a green light here to do as they want with all this. You know, they took what Gerrardi said and said, hey, okay, we'll check it. It's not like Gerrari asked a bunch of times for Nat's pitchers to be checked. It was just that one time.

It obviously was strategic. He was doing it to mess with Mack. And so the umpires acquiesce, and we got Max. trying to take his pants off. Yeah. Is this an unintended consequence here that managers will use this

as a form of gamesmanship? So what's interesting is that it was already addressed, at least, you know, via a memo of MOPB saying you can't do this for gamesmanship purposes. But there's, of course, so much great area on something like this.

Joe Girardi has the plausible deniability of, well, Max kept going to his head on Tuesday night, kept touching his hair on Tuesday night. So I wanted to see that check. and the umpires have to say, well, I mean, we may think this is gamesmanship, but we can't prove that, but we'll go ahead and check it. What's so funny about the Max going to his hair stuff is he talked about this after the game. The reason he kept going to his hair is, right, exactly.

He needed sweat because he needed something to help grip the baseball. Which is legal. Exactly. But it happened to be a cool night in Philadelphia, and so Max tried to get whatever perspiration he could get from his hair and apply that to the baseball. But Gerardy was able to use that as a reason for the umpires to check Max. Of course, Gerardy wasn't really trying to check Max.

He was trying to screw with Max. And, you know, it seemed to work to at least some extent because Max got angry as though. You know, Clayton Kirshaw late last night, referred back to the Nats Phillies game and said that, you know, a manager, if he, you know, suspects a pitcher of cheating and asks the umpire to check on and is wrong, there should be some sort of punishment. I mean, I don't know how an umpire is going to be asked to determine the difference between gamesmanship and a legitimate request based on a real fear that the pitcher is cheating.

I think that seems to be unreasonable, but what seems reasonable to me is one of these suggestions per game by a manager, period. the end of it, they get one. I don't think that's unreasonable. I mean, I think this really has to be something the umpires lord over, because there's too much danger. There are too many potential pitfalls of just allowing managers willy-nilly to say, check this guy, check that guy.

So, I mean, to me it almost should be like maybe umpires can suggest it, or excuse me, maybe managers can suggest it, but this really has to be all about the umpire. And it can't just be every time a manager says something, you go ahead and do it. Again, I think it's new to everybody. And I think umpires are trying to figure out how they want to do this and what's the best way to go about this. And I think part of two what was going on on Tuesday night is Max Scherzer has a role

with the Players Association. So Max Scherzer was kind of putting on a show on Tuesday night. Before the stuff with Gerardi happened, Max made a big deal and got very dramatic the very first time he got checked. And he overreacted, but he overreacted on purpose. But this became a thing on Twitter. End of the bottom of the first, Max gets checked for the first time. It was a very benign check. But he had this look on his face like, you know, he was being probed. He put his hands up in the air. And he did it on purpose, I think. He did it to sort of almost pitch the fit of, look at this. This is so ridiculous. Why has M.O.B. doing this. So, you know, I think there

was that going on on Tuesday night as well. Max is a smart guy. He's those that people watch him and follow him. And again, given his role with the players association, he wanted to make a statement. And so he reacted the way he reacted the very first time he got checked. And then things really got rammed up the third time off the Gerardi request. Yeah, you know, to be honest with you, if he's doing it for show, that's fine. I don't have any issue with these rules being enforced and umpires at their discretion checking. And if baseball pitchers have a problem with that, well, tough.

Because the game isn't really super exciting when we're watching, you know, 16 to 18 strikeouts a night and no balls hit, you know, out of the infield. So I have no problem with that. I do have a problem if these games end up becoming, you know, managers using gamesmanship to disrupt the rhythm of a hot pitcher. That doesn't make any sense to me. And by the way, the goal of speeding up games, that'll work to its detriment. I did hear Mike Rizzo this morning on the junkies say, and he was very upset with Gerardy.

He calls him a con artist. And by the way, to me, that would have been quite the match, Scherzer versus Girardi. Gerardi, I don't know how old he is, but he's cut, man. And Scher's feisty as hell. That would have been a battle. That stared out. I don't know if Max actually wanted any part of Girardi, but whatever. That's beside the point.

But Rizzo said, he said, look, they're going to figure this thing out, and it's going to get figured out. We figured out the COVID thing, which was an absolute disaster when we started. We learned from it, and the league will adapt quickly and we'll figure out something that becomes, you know, utterly, you know, benign in terms of the number of disruptions. And it sounds like you think that that's what will happen as well. Yeah, I think we always see this. We certainly saw this with COVID-19 last year in baseball of, you know, so many people were ready to pull the plug on the season, and there's no way they can have the season.

And actually, no, they ended up having the season, and things ended up being just fine. And I think we'll get to that point here. What I think will be interesting, though, is do we get to a point of reason here because they actually find a true middle ground, or do we get to a point of true reason here because just things go back to the way they were, and we'll see on something like that?

Rizzo, I think he and Gerrardi have a relationship. They're both from the Chicago land area. So, you know, some of that may be Rizzo just trying to needle back at Durrity. I mean, I actually think from a Philly's perspective, what Gerardy did, it's kind of smart, right? Mess with Max. Why the heck not? Sure. I mean, is it the most moral thing in the world?

Maybe not, but who cares? So I get where Gerrardi was coming from on that. Of course, the issue is that he was allowed to do something like that. Nat's won the game three to two. By the way, Rizzo versus Girardi would be a hell of a match, too. Because Rizzo's a tough dude, too. So anyway, netting it out last night, Gerardi got booted from the game after he came out, after Max stared him down.

He got booted. Max ended up pitching five innings. I actually was tuning into much of the game going back and forth between that and the basketball after it started, and his pitch count was extremely high. and he ended up going just five innings, even though he gave up just the one-earned run, which was the solo shot by Bryce Harper. How did you think he looked in his return? Yeah, I mean, he was effective from a run prevention standpoint.

Like you said, one-run five innings. He had a strikeout. The problem was the pitch down. He threw 106 pitches over five innings, which is way too many. It was his first start off the 10-day injured list. It was also a start in which he was dueling with a guy who was having an excellent season, and Zach Wheeler, although he did not do very well. against the Nats on Tuesday night. They did a good job of getting to Wheeler.

You know, with Max, it's always kind of relative. Like, most guys would kill for one-run, five-innings-day strikeouts because it's Max. They're like, well, it's kind of disappointing. He only lasted the five-inings. But while he threw a lot of pitches, he did throw a lot of strikes. It's not like he was all over the place. He threw 70 strikes out of the 106 pitches. He only issued three walks. You know, it was just a matter of, and this is kind of a problem sometimes for guys who generate a lot of strikeouts. it drives up the pitch count. Like Max struck out the side in a perfect bottom of the first, but three strikeouts require a lot of pitches.

So things like that, it kind of can work against you sometimes when you're a high strikeout guy. But overall, Max looked good. I mean, the knit to pick with Max in recent years is that we've started to see the body, I don't know if breakdown is the right phrase, but he's had some minor injuries pop off. You know, he's had multiple injured listings at this point,

but he's still a great pitcher. And whereas last season he was good, but maybe not great. He's back to being great this season. I feel like that's kind of been an underappreciated thing. Max Scherzer is back to being Syung-level Max Scherzer this season. We didn't know if he could still get to that level, but he's been at that level this year. There's 70 games into their season. This last stretch winning eight of nine has really kept them, you know, in the mix. They could have easily been nine, ten out with a brutal schedule. I was talking to Tommy about this yesterday after the Miami set this weekend.

It's brutal. It's the Mets for one game, but it's Tampa. It's the Dodgers. It's the Padres. It's the Giants. It's the Padres again. But right now, on June 23rd, with, you know, still 92 games left, who wins the National League East? Right now, I still would say the Mets, just because I think they have a deeper lineup than what the nationals have. And the Mets this season have authored a tremendous turnaround in terms of of their team defense. The Mets have really gone in on analytics and defensively they're much improved. Now, that said, one of the most stunning things about this national season is how much better defensively they've been. Yeah. And no one really can explain how or why this has happened.

The Nats have been a really bad defensive team for years. They were last in the majors in defensive run saved last season. The two position player acquisitions of consequences offseason are two guys who historically have not been good defensively and Kyle Schorber and Josh Bell. And yet the Nats have grade defensively. What we've seen with this recent surge of the NAD is this overall thing of run prevention really be heightened where the National's pitching has been excellent recently, even though Steven Strasberg and Daniel Hudson are on the 10-day injured list, and Scherzer just came off it. And the National's defense, I mean, that's been a top five defensive team for most of the season, which is just a jaw dropper. So that's the past of victory here, because

the National's offense cannot be trusted. The Natch don't score a lot of runs. They've been horrendous this season with the bases loaded. And while you have stretches of time in which different guys get hot, like obviously Kyle Swarber recently, you know, someone like a Dodd Harrison early in the season, you also don't have it to where everyone is going in the same direction at the same time. And it's just not an offense that's night in, night out. You can have a lot of faith in scoring more than three runs.

If it happens to be that the offense gets better, great. But at this point, I mean, more than a third of the way into the season, I think it's kind of pie in the sky to feel like all. all of a sudden, things are just going to click offensively for the National. So the road to victory is pitching in defense. The Nats have brought it big time lately in those regards, and that's why they've been able to do as they've done. The other thing, of course, is the state of the division.

It's not a very good division. This is supposed to be the best division of baseball. You could argue it's been the worst. And so the Nationals are right in the thick of this year. It may not be that you need, say, 92 wins to win this division. You may be able to win the division. At 7 and 9. At 7 and 9.

You might be able to win it at 7 and 9. Yeah, Alex Smith maybe can pitch for the net. Will you stick around and have a Taylor Heineke conversation with me? Absolutely. All right after these words from a few of our sponsors. Al Galdi is sticking around with us. By the way, I meant to mention that Galdi's also doing a Nats chat podcast with Mark Zuckerman and Tim Schovers. They do a post-game wrap on all Nats games.

You can find that wherever. you find your podcast. So you know what time of year it is. It's that time between, you know, the draft and whatever the OTA mini-camp days are. I mean, I think it's a bunch of bullshit most of it anyway. And, you know, we're still a month, you know, plus before training camp. So every single, you know, website, sports website is asking their NFL people to come up with lists and rankings. and projections and who's going to be the surprise play.

It's all the stuff that we try to come up with on the shows that we do this time of year because it is a dead part of the NFL calendar, which there aren't many portions of the calendar that are dead when it comes to the NFL. So I found something that I did on radio this morning. And I did it because, Al, I don't know if you have this sense, but there is definitely a hefty percentage, not major. majority, but a hefty percentage of the fan base that really believes that Taylor Heineke's the answer. Like, they saw enough in that Tampa game. They saw enough in the fourth quarter against Carolina,

the five quarters to believe that Washington has found their starting quarterback. And then they put it together with some of the things that Ron Rivera's been talking about in terms of competition. I don't know what you've been saying on your podcast. I would put the chances of Ryan Fitzpatrick starting day one at 100%. Like injury, you know, notwithstanding. No injury, it's 100%. I don't think that this is a legitimate competition. I think Ron has a culture that he's trying to change,

and I think competition's a big part of it. And so I like the fact that he's speaking to that and selling it. But their actions spoke to trying to find a starting quarterback when the season ended because they didn't think they had one. Now, it doesn't mean that Heineke can't turn into one. But I found this ranking of the top, a ranking of 1 to 32 of backup quarterbacks in the NFL. So, CBSports.com, I forget who wrote the story.

I'd have to go find it. Cody Benjamin wrote it. So he was asked yesterday to come up with some content, NFL content. So he ranked the NFL backup quarterbacks from 1 to 32, which meant that he also had to guess on who the starters were going to be, you know, in places where there might be a legitimate debate as to who the starters are going to be. Like who the starter will be. Like in Denver, Teddy Bridgewater is there.

So is Drew Locke. That's a competition. He projects Drew Locke to win that competition. So he had Teddy Bridgewater as a backup. But the interest in doing this, obviously, was to see where Teddell is. Taylor Heineke would land. Well, first of all, to make sure that they viewed Taylor Heineke as a backup and not a starter, like some people do. By the way, I haven't asked you, do you agree with me on Fitzpatrick or not?

Or do you have a different opinion on Taylor Heineke's claim or maybe opportunity to win the starting job? Yeah, I mean, I think it's very likely Fitzpatrick is the week one starter. I actually had Joe Seisman on the most recent installment of my podcast. And we know how plugged in Joe is. He believes that Patrick will be the weak-one starter. I do think, though, with Heineke, you need to further explore this. And I don't want any sort of a dismissal of Heineke. I think he needs to be given an opportunity.

That's not to say that, like, you know, you build everything around them or anything like that. But I'm glad to hear that Ron is talking up competition. And I think that at the very least, let's just see more of the movie here. You know, give Heineke, be open-minded to Heinekees, is what I want from Ron, because what he did against the box was special, especially given all the things working against him in that game. And there's nothing wrong with just further exploring this, further probing this Heineke situation,

just to see where it might lead. And maybe it leads to nowhere. But I think you have to, the way the NFL works, weird stories like this happen. And so you can't just shut the door on it completely to me if you're wrong. I totally agree with you. It's funny because in conversations recently, I've been very definitive about Ryan Fitzpatrick.

I've been very definitive in my belief that when the season ended, while they were happy with what Taylor Heineke provided them, and they were intrigued, they also tried to trade for Matt Stafford. They also inquired about Sam Darnold and Derek Carr and maybe even Mitch Trubisky. They also considered trading up for Justin Fields or Trey Lance. So their actions really spoke to, we're looking for our starting quarterback. But that doesn't mean that they don't believe that Heineke can be something. And like me, I'm intrigued.

It sounds like you are too. And somebody reminded me this morning, a caller or somebody on Twitter, Shean, you compared him to Jeff Garcia after the Tampa game. And I did. Now, I didn't compare him saying that he's going to be the Jeff Garcia, that he's going to become Jeff Garcia. I said stylistically, he reminded me of Jeff Garcia. I thought that's what I thought of when I watched him,

and I thought he played like Jeff Garcia. But I was all in on, hey, I want to see more. Bring this guy back. He may not be a starter, but he's a gamer. And in a pinch, you know, he's a backup, you know, maybe in this league. Anyway, back to the list. The ranking of backup quarterbacks to 1 through 32. The first thing is I wanted to make sure that Taylor Heineke was actually viewed as a backup quarterback.

I mean, Sabah called in this morning. she was waiting as she usually is at 545 a.m. waiting for me to go to any sort of call segment. And she believes that Taylor Heineke will be the starter. So I wanted to make sure that Taylor Heineke was being viewed as a backup, which he was, thankfully. And then I thought to myself, before I started to look at the list, I'm going to guess that he's somewhere around 15 in terms of backup quarterbacks. He'll be in the top half of the league of backup quarterbacks. But Al, I'm always interested to see what the rest of the NFL, you know, the analysts and the writers and the reporters, what they think. And by the way, speaking of Sabah, one of the things that she mentioned to me, and it's true, all of the discussion about this football team in the offseason has been mostly positive. Like, I don't know that we've had an offseason like this, the defense, elite, top five, maybe the best.

You know, the additions of Jackson and Samuel, what a hell of a free agency class. What a great draft to get Sam Cosmy and their starting middle linebacker and maybe a receiver. Like, I've not heard this much optimism or encouraging discussion about the team in a long, long time. I would say 2013's the last time going into that season, and you had a major injury at the quarterback position. But anyway, he is listed on the list of backup quarterbacks. Have you seen this list? No, I haven't. So where do you guess he is?

Pineyke, well, what he did against the Bucks got a lot of attention. So I'll say 10th. I'll say top 10. Okay. So my guess was 15 somewhere around there, no better than 10. but I do think that probably there's a significant part of the fan base that thinks, oh, well, he's going to be, you know, it's going to be one of the first two or three backup quarterbacks mentioned.

Don't you get that sense that there are a lot of people, especially the people that think he should start, that they're not expecting if they open up this list to see him any lower than five or six? Yeah, you know what's interesting? My perception is a little different. I've actually sensed that a lot of people are not believing. in Heineke. Because what I've heard of a million times is this is Rex Grossman, John Beck, all over again,

Heineke and Kyle Allen. And so, you know, neither guy is a road to anywhere meaningful. But I'm interested to hear where you ranked on this list. I've had a lot of that, too, but I think that there are a lot of people. Again, not majority, but a lot of people that are big believers. All right, so I'll count them down from one to 32. Number one is Trey Lance. So they've got Garoppolo as the starter, and Trey Lance,

as a backup. Now, I don't know how you rank a guy that you've never seen play, but it's based on a projection. So Lance was one, and Justin Fields was two, even though I think everybody in Chicago will go into cardiac arrest if they see Andy Dalton on the field to start the season. They all want Justin Fields to start the season. Who knows if he'll be ready. Number three is Teddy Bridgewater, with Drew Locke projected to be the starter in Denver. number four is Jacoby Brissette. He is the backup in Miami to Tuatunga Viloa. Jacoby Brissette is ahead of Taylor Heineke.

Case Keenham is ahead of Taylor Heineke. He is Baker Mayfield's backup in Cleveland. Tyrod Taylor, well, he could be the starter, depending on Deshawn Watson's availability in Houston, but assuming Watson plays, Tyrod Taylor is number six. on the list of 32 backup quarterbacks in the NFL. Number seven is Jordan Love. Now, obviously, that assumes that Aaron Rogers is the number one.

I know we have never seen Trey Lance or Justin Fields throw a ball in the NFL. We also have not seen Jordan Love throw a football in the NFL, and we've been told that there's some great fear if Jordan Love ends up starting. like the Packers are going to go four and 13 in a 17 game season. They've got him seventh. I think that's ridiculous. What has he done to earn that spot? And like you just said, the word is that he has not looked good.

And so I don't know how you justify putting him seventh. Well, he's done no more and no less than the two rookies I've already mentioned. Marcus Marietta, who I would have thought would have been much higher on this list, he is still, by the way, for those that didn't follow the offseason in Las Vegas, even though there was a lot of chatter about him getting traded, even for like a low, you know, a five or six or a seventh round pick because of his contract, but he is still backing up Derek Carr in Vegas. He's eighth. And then the other quarterback that isn't the obvious starter like Zach Wilson and Trevor Lawrence are in Jacksonville and New York,

Mack Jones is nine in New England as a backup to Cam. Newton. So the three rookie quarterbacks that aren't presumed starters are all ahead of Taylor Heineke, and a guy that's never played before in the NFL, Jordan Love, is ahead of Taylor Heineke on this list. Well, we're approaching, you know, 10 through 15. He's got to be in this next group of players. Gardner Minchews 10. Tassum Hill is 11 behind James Winston, who, by the way, to me, just as an aside, it's one of the more intriguing stories of the NFL season. I think there's a chance James Winston resurrects his career and becomes not an elite quarterback, but a really good quarterback under Sean Payton. That's a hell of a football team,

too, if Winston is the answer. Mitch Trubisky is 12 behind Josh Allen and Buffalo. Here's a beauty. 13 is Kellyn Mond, a third-round rookie who's never taken a snap, who, by the way, I don't think is very good, is backing up Kirk Cousins. He's ahead of Taylor Heineke. Then you get Chad Hennie in Kansas City at 14, and Mason Rudolph in Pittsburgh at 15. Al, your wife is a big Pittsburgh fan, so you follow it.

I think Mason Rudolph stinks. He's been horrible when he's played. That's a joke. This list is losing credibility by the second. did you? Mike Glennon is 16. For those that don't know, he's backing up Daniel Jones in New York, because Colt McCoy, who comes in 17th on this list, is out in Arizona, backing up Kyler Murray. Colt McCoy is ranked higher on the list. Now, remember, a few years ago, Colt McCoy was way up the list on, you know, backup quarterback rankings. Chase Daniel, who's had one of the more fascinating careers in NFL history for a guy that really hasn't done anything.

but keeps getting paid and keeps landing somewhere. He must be the greatest dude of all time. Chase Daniel is in L.A. as Justin Herbert's backup for the Chargers. He comes in at 18. Notice how many of these guys are former Washington quarterback. I know. Chase Daniel was actually the undrafted free agent for Washington in 2009, even though I don't think he ever suited up for Washington.

Taylor Heineke at 19. There we go. And here's what's written. He's got fight and athleticism as displayed in an emergency postseason start for Alex Smith in 2020. He's only started one other game in his career, two games, so don't get carried away. Flashes in Minnesota and Carolina suggest he's got talent to stick. After him, Jacob Eason, John Wolford, Brandon Allen, Joe Flacco, who's in Philadelphia, Blaine Gabbart, P.J. Walker, Gino Smith, A.J. McCarrick Trace McSorley, Tim Boyle, Cooper Rush, who's Dallas is backup.

And then two dudes, I swear to God, I've never heard of. James Morgan is the backup in New York for the Jets. Never heard of them. And Logan Woodside is Ryan Tannehill's backup in Tennessee. Not a lot of love for Taylor Heineke on the rankings of the top 32 backup quarterbacks. One national perspective, I warn everybody as I do whenever I do this stuff, it doesn't mean anything. it means absolutely nothing other than to gauge sort of the perspective from outside the market of what they think

of your backup quarterback in this particular case. Yeah, I mean, I would certainly take exception with Klemond. I would certainly take exception with a few of the others. Like, you know, even like someone like a Kate Kienem. You know, I don't know if you can justify necessarily him being ahead of Hineke. And I would say this, and look, it's one game. I think we all understand that. But if you rank each guy's best game out of those quarterbacks you just went through,

Heineke's game against the Bucks is what, top five, maybe number one? Like how many guys have demonstrated an ability to play at that high of a level in that big of a spot? And it's one game, everyone understands that. The sample size is small. But the fact that he has shown that he can play at that level in that moment, I think, says something. And again, it's just worthy of further exploration. You know, I don't know if you talk about this, but what Ken Zampi said about Heineke during all those, you know, press conferences over the last few weeks. Right.

Where he gets asked about Hanke. And look, I know he's the quarterback's coach like he's not going to shred Heineke. But, you know, he gets asked, well, what's the way that He can show that he's not a flash in a pan? And he says, stay on the field. That's it. You know, just stay healthy. And that's the thing. If there was some magic wand we could wave that could guarantee that he won't get hurt, because that's been the thing.

He's been hurt a ton. He got hurt during OTA. practices, right? He got cut up with the stitches. But if you could guarantee that he doesn't get hurt, to what extent would that change the way we view here of, well, if he's going to stay healthy, there is something to him. Like, he can play the position. He has this incredible relationship with Scott Turner. He knows the offense. He can run. He's gutsy. He's got moxie. You know, maybe there's limited arm strength. But I think that there is something with this guy. And the dismissal of him by thumb, I just am like, that's ridiculous.

open-minded to them, that's all. Yeah, I think that's a reasonable position. And that was my position after watching the Tampa game. I think the Tampa game gets blown up a little bit. I'm sure on this list, you know, Marcus Marriota and Tyrod Taylor and, you know, Case Keenham and Teddy Bridgewater have had, you know, great games, you know, as starters during the course of their career. I mean, hell, Mitch Trubisky was, you know, having at one point in that year when they went 13 and 3 or 12 and 4, you know, a Pro Bowl kind of year, even though I think he stinks. I just, the Buccaneer games were so interesting to me because he was really good. And he was really good considering that, you know, he was starting a playoff game, something, by the way, Ryan Fitzpatrick's never done.

And he throws for 300 yards. And he also took some bad sacks when they actually had a chance with the ball. You know, he threw a pick in the game. They had multiple chances, you know, with the ball. to take the lead or to tie the game late, and it didn't happen, like it didn't happen at the end of the Carolina game either. So I don't know. I love the way he played in that game. I love the way he played in the Carolina game. And part of it is because we were watching a guy essentially on one leg with veterans, you know,

guile and experience and leadership, you know, play well enough, but really not physically capable of doing it. And then we see Taylor Heineke come in and all of a sudden the ball's being pushed down the field, you know, consistently. And he's taking chances and he's running around and he's making plays. I'm intrigued. I'm glad they re-signed him. But I think their actions, Al, speak louder than anything else that any of us can say. They desperately sought a starting quarterback in the offseason, whether it was for this year or for the medium to long-term future.

they did not think when the season ended that Taylor Heineke was their quarterback of the future. If they were convinced of it, they wouldn't have taken the actions that they took. Right, and it would have been malpracticed to think that because you would have been operating just off the one game. I think the contract they gave Heineke says a lot too. Yes, it's a two-year deal, but there's so little guaranteed money in that deal. He's incredibly cuttable. And let's be honest, the fact that he took that deal right away that he didn't. and say, hey, let me see what can happen for me as a restricted free agent.

I think he recognized, all right, so probably is it going to be that great of a market for me. I know Scott Turner, I'm comfortable here. Let me resign here and go. I would make this point, though, about the Bucks game. There was a lot working against him in that game, too, not just that, you know, that was his first start for the Washington team. You know, he had just signed with the team a month earlier, but facing a great defense in that of Tampa Bay.

I know the Bucs were missing a key player, but still their best player. defense. Their best player defensively. Washington had no running game in that game. Gibson and McKiddick did nothing in that game. Washington had a ton of drops in that game. It was one drop after another. There was a terrible no-call on a Cam Sims target in the first half, too. So, like, his numbers in that game were good.

They should be even better. If not for just the drops, like forget about everything else, if you don't have all the drops of the dad in that game. So I think that kind of gets forgotten too. Yeah. And he gets hurt and he comes back into the game and throws a touchdown passes. Stephen Sims. So, like, that was great, too.

He played a great game. I'm not disputing that. I think, I think the conversation about that game in general has almost become something, you know, that isn't even, doesn't even resemble it. Like a lot of people like to say they took the eventual champions to the brink. They played them tougher than anybody else, which is not true. Green Bay, you know, score-wise was closer, and the Saints were tied in the fourth quarter with Tampa and had a legitimate chance. You know, the funny thing about that game in watching it, I remember one of the first things I said the day after,

or the Monday morning after, or whenever it was, I never really thought they could win the game in watching it. You know, first of all, the reason that they didn't win the game is their defense let them down in a major way. And their best defensive player was not good in the game, Chase Young. You know, anytime you give up 500 plus, yards and 31 points in a game, you're not going to win most of those games, and they didn't win that game. They lost that game because of their defense first and foremost, and the defense

proved that day that it wasn't what some thought it was, which was elite. It was a good defense. It was an improved defense, and I think it'll be even better this year, hopefully. Of course, they're going to face much better teams and much better quarterbacks last year. The seven wins, five of them came against backup or third string quarterbacks. But anyway, everybody knows that. And then I think, you know, Devin White proved the rest of the way that he was not only the best defensive player on the team, he may have played at the highest level of any defensive player in the postseason. And he would have been a major factor in that game. But still, they wouldn't have been in that game. Totally admit this. They would not have been anywhere near

having a chance or being in the game score-wise without Taylor Heineke. It's true. and so I'll never take that away from them. But, you know, we have, we've lived with this, well, we beat the eventual Super Bowl champions. Remember that stretch of like three or four years where like they beat the Packers, they won the Super Bowl? They beat the Giants twice. One of those years, the last loss. Like, taking pride in that is just stupid. And it's just loser talk.

Tampa, they pushed Tampa. They did. They pushed them. but New Orleans and Green Bay pushed them more. And New Orleans and Green Bay had legitimate chances to win the game. I never felt watching that game, even when it was a one-score game, and they had the ball twice in a one-score game, I just didn't really ever feel like they would win it.

If they had, have won it, or if they'd gotten to overtime on that final drive in 31-31 overtime, and somehow they lost the coin toss, and Brady went down the field and scored, to touchdown and ended it on the first drive and overtime. I think if Heineke had gotten it done and gotten the two-point conversion, it'd be a different, you know, discussion. But that game winnable, barely, barely winnable. Tampa Bay was the better team. Oh, yeah.

Much better team. I just remember what was said going into that game of Taylor Heineke, give me a break. You know, this is going to be another one of these playoff games in which the team starts. the backup or a third stringer and the team has no chance. And he spit in the face of that to where it's at least a conversation, maybe it's not true, but it's at least a conversation that Heineke authored the best opposing team quarterback performance against the buck's last post season. That can be debated.

But just the fact that you can say that and not be laughed out of the room, I think there's a ton about the job he did that night. Yep. And Devin White created absolute mayhem against the. Saints and the Packers and the Chiefs in the next three games. But I want to make sure that I'm clear on this. I totally agree with Al. And I've said it since the day after that game.

I wanted him re-signed. I want to see what he has. I'm intrigued. There was a lot there to like. And the bottom line was, you know, in the moment, we didn't have anybody. I mean, it wasn't going to be Alex Smith. And who knows about Kyle Allen. By the way, I've not asked you about that.

and I'm assuming you've talked about it on your podcast. Just the whole dismissal, the dispatching by Ron Rivera on Ben's podcast of Kyle Allen. That was a shock to me. I don't know the answer. Yeah, I think it's fascinating. And to the people, because I've gotten some of this of, oh, why are you making such a big deal out of this? Because we know to make a big deal out of this,

because one of the things we've already learned about Ron Rivera is how he's talks about people matters. This is how we talked about Kyle Smith. This is how we talked about Alex Smith. And now we're talking about Kyle Allen this way. We saw what happened to Alex Smith and Kyle Smith. I think, first of all, it is such an indictment of the way Ron must think of the way Alex Smith performed last year. Last December, Ron gets asked, would you be here if not for Alex Smith? Ron says, yeah, if Kyle Allen was healthy. And now a few months later, Ron won't even include Kyle in the quarterback competition. What does that tell you about where Ron thought about what Alex did last year?

I just get a kick out of that. You know, it certainly doesn't seem to be injury-related because I know that's come off of, well, Kyle's coming off an injury. Well, yeah, but he was practicing during the minicamp, and Ron was given a chance by Ben to say, well, you know, Kyle Allen's coming off injury. Ron didn't say that. Ron, in fact, when he gets asked about Kyle Allen deflect and pivotes to something else. That's right.

So I don't, it's very odd. I don't know if something happened behind the scenes. I don't know if they're not pleased with what. Kyle is doing or saying, you know, it kind of reeks to the Morgan Moses thing of it. It feels like there's more to this than we know, but there's something to this to where he keeps positioning this as a two-man competition. He won't even say Kyle Allen's name. The way, by the way, and this is another thing that cracked me up, I don't know if you've noticed it. He won't say Dwayne Haskins' name. Whenever he talks about how he should have had a quarterback competition last month, he will

not, he will not say Dwayne Haskins' name. Years ago, Bill Parcells would not say Terrell Owens his name. He would call him the player. I'm waiting for Ron to start doing that with Haskins. He will not say Haskins' name. That's another thing that makes me laugh right now. But yeah, man, it feels like something happened, and Ron had soured on Kyle Allen, which is nuts to me because it felt like Kyle Allen was the new Colt McCoy. As Colt was the Jay, Kyle was Ron, and that certainly does not seem to be the case right now. I don't have an answer for it either. The Morgan Moses thing, I think I have an answer for it. Number one, I know that they loved Cosmy before the draft and they were hopeful of getting him.

And I think that they are already, already feel justified in having drafted him in the second round. And I think Morgan, you know, from what I've learned from various people, Morgan, they loved him as a player. And we all loved him because he played hurt and he was a good player. But they want to be younger. They want to be better. And they want guys that are totally, bought into the way they do things. And I think Morgan is one of those guys that always has like a better idea of how to do something. Yeah, no, no, I like that idea. But what about if we do a coach this way? And I think ultimately it's like, okay, we're getting guys that are 100% drinking the Kool-Aid here. And that's what we want. By the way, on your Ken Zampezi thing,

I thought it was interesting, too, that the first thing he said was health. But I also wonder if, you know, if that's just the first thing that pops into anybody's mind about Taylor Heineke. Well, he's got to stay healthy. And I don't know that it doesn't mean that Ken Zampese and Scott Turner and Ron Rivera don't also see other limitations. I think that that's just the obvious thing to say. And by the way, it gets you, you know, off the hook of describing any of the other limitations, which he has to have somehow. If not, he would have been in the league the last seven years. Yes, and we know coaches say things in press conferences, so you can't just take what they say is gospel. If you listen, though, to what Zampi's he said in its entirety,

he says He says Heineke needs to stay on the field, and then he gushes over the way Heineke played last year. It's not unlike the way Ron recently has essentially gussed over Heineke. I mean, Ron has really He praised He calls him an extremely accurate passer. Now, Ron also keeps praising Ryan Fitzpatrick. So, you know, it's clear Fitzpatrick is still the favorite. But Van Peezy has made it a point to praise Heineke. Ron has made it a point to praise Heineke. So they do seem to really think that there's something to him, you know, how much of it something we'll see.

The actions will tell us everything. If he doesn't get a single first-team practice rep in training camp, then a lot of this ends up being mostly talked, especially if Fitzpatrick does as he's supposed to do, and that's do well enough in camp in the preseason. to be the weak one starter. But I just, I've always wanted, I've always wanted a competition. We'll see if we actually get one. But I'd like to think that there is at least a potential path here for Heineke to be the starter if Fitzpatrick falters and if Heineke does well enough to earn the job. And it seems the way Ron's talking that there is that path. I don't know that it ever gets realized, but there is that path. I just want a quarterback, you know, like if Matt Stafford were here

and there would be no competition, I would be so much happier. You know, I just had this one thought about Kyle Allen. You know, you just mentioned first team reps. Well, you know, Heineckee didn't get any in OTAs or minicamp, not one rep with any of the starters. But the word was that he looked, you know, that they were impressed with him, you know, against second and third teamers or whatever. I think maybe in just, I just had this thought. Scott Turner wants to stretch the field. By the way, just like his pop always wanted to stretch.

the field. And he couldn't do that last year, in part because some of the teams they were playing just wouldn't allow for the protection to hold up. You know, when they played Baltimore and even the Rams, I mean, the ball was coming out quickly and sideways. But that was good. I mean, I thought Scott Turner adapted against the teams he faced. But what Taylor Heineke did is he threw the ball down the field. Kyle Allen didn't really do that necessarily. You know, they ran the ball and their win over the Cowboys that he started. The Giants game, he was good, but he also had the back-breaking pick. I think that they love that Heineke is a playmaker, and that he will take chances and throw the ball down the field and probably plays more like Ryan Fitzpatrick than

Kyle Allen does. And maybe in their mind he's just the number two, because he is much more like Fitzpatrick. Yeah, Heineke does come off like a younger Fitzpatrick. Patrick, and Heineke obviously brings to the table something that neither guy brings in abundance with the speed. Now, each guy can move a little bit, but Patrick actually could move forward, and I think he gets credit for it. We saw Allen do some things from a mobility standpoint, but Heineke's legs really are weapons, and I think that's a big factor as well.

And, you know, going back to that Bucks game real quick, that was another thing that stood out about that game. It wasn't just that Hankekeke played well, is that he was throwing the past actors who were like screaming wide open for so much of the game. That was a night that I think for a lot of people was like, hey, Scott Turner does kind of know what he's doing here. I think he does. Yeah, he schemed it up well against Todd Bulls that night. I think he did it a lot of the year. I think that just, you know, they had limitations of quarterback, you know, in a lot of those games. But I thought he did it a lot of the year. I mean, I think a lot of the year watching games, there were receivers open.

And you know what? There's something about Norv, just thinking about Norv, especially Norv as a coordinator. people were always open. You know, Jay Gruden schemed people open. You know, there are certain guys that can do that, you know, even with, you know, less quality receivers. And they've got more quality, you know, this year, hopefully. Thanks for doing this. I really appreciate it. I'm so glad you're doing well.

Al Galdi's podcast, get it wherever you get a podcast. He's doing the Nats chat thing with our good friend Tim Schovers and Mark Zuckerman. I appreciate it. I enjoy it, man. Thank you so much for having me on. All right, let's do it again soon. Al Galdi, everybody. I will talk about the lone NBA game last night

and have a pick on tonight's game when we return right after these words from a few of our sponsors. Last night in the NHL, the Montreal Canadians, who were the last team to make the playoffs point-wise, beat Las Vegas 4-1 to take a 3-2 series lead in that semi-final series in the Stanley Cup playoffs. A friend of mine, let's just say a friend of mine who lives offshore,

texted me after the game was over, which didn't help me much, that there was essentially 90% of the public money was on Vegas last night. They could not make a money line attractive enough to get anybody to bet on Montreal, Meaning that literally last night, almost every bookmaker in America. Now, hockey doesn't get bet at the same level that the NFL or college football or even the NBA or college basketball gets a bet. But last night, I guarantee you there were bookmakers all over the country, legal and illegal, that were praying for Montreal to win that game. And they did, 4 to 1. They will probably be a massive underdog in game six tomorrow night at home.

But it is interesting the hockey playoffs. Like the Canadians were the last team in essentially into the postseason, and they are a game away from the Stanley Cup finals. And then there was the NBA game from last night. Phoenix, L.A., game two of the Western Conference finals, the Suns won game one, and they won game two last night, 104, 103. I'm not going to do a breakdown of the game. I'll just, because I want to get to something that I learned about the NBA last night

that I didn't know before. I will tell you that Patrick Beverly's defense on Devin Booker was phenomenal, and there were far too many replay reviews in this game. I have no idea how long the game lasted. It seemed like it was three hours plus. Anyway, at the end of this game, with the Clippers leading 103-102, by the way, after Paul George choked on two free throws, miss both of them that would have given the clippers a three-point lead.

The Sons ended up with the ball underneath their own basket with nine-tenths of a second left, down 103 to 102. And that set the stage for something that I didn't know about the NBA rule book. And maybe some of you did. I did not know. I was surprised. Mark Jackson on the broadcast last night knew the rule. down pat it down pat. He knew it and set it right away. What it was was a pass from out of bounds

from Jay Crowder, a lob to the rim with nine-tenths of a second left. By the way, nine-tenths of a second left, you can catch and shoot it. So they could have run a play for Devin Booker to take a jump shot to try to win the game. They ran a great play, a back screen from Devin Booker for DeAndre Aiton for a lob at the rim. The ball ended up right above the rim. DeAndre Aiton took it and just guided it home for the game winner. 104-103, the sons win the game. But it looked to me, and I think a lot of people watching it,

that it was offensive goaltending. The Clippers players were going nuts. That's goaltending. That's offensive goal-tending. The ball was in the cylinder, which it was. and in any other situation it would have been called offensive goal tending and the bucket would have been waved off and the clippers would have won the game. But the rule book states, and I did not know this,

that there can be no offensive goaltending off of an inbound pass. And Phoenix knew the rule. And the coaching instruction from Monty Williams, after he set up a great back screen to set up the play for D'Andre Aiton, by the way, as an aside, you always switch every screen with less than five seconds left, and the Clippers didn't for some reason, which left D'Andre Aiton sort of open for the lob at the rim. He said to his team, doesn't matter, put it right over the rim, there's no goaltending on a play like this. DeAndre take it, slam it through. And that's what happened.

Everybody's screaming offensive goaltending. I'm watching. the game going, well, that's going to be waived off. That's offensive goaltending. And it wasn't. They knew the rule. By the way, I give Mark Jackson a lot of credit on the ESPN call. He immediately said there's no offensive goaltending on an inbound pass. He knew the rule. Good for him. But I learned something last night. Had no idea. Great that the coach of the team knew it, designed a great play. By the way, the reason they were able to design this play, although I'm sure they've worked on it in practice, but there was a replay review of who the ball got knocked off of and out of bounds,

which gave them like two minutes to, you know, get the play down and make sure everybody was aware of the rule. The Sons won 104-1303. Chris Paul didn't play last night still in COVID protocol. Kauai Leonard didn't play. The Clippers have been down two nothing in each of their previous two series, and they won. I don't think they can beat Phoenix without Kauai returning.

and I have no idea if you will. Tonight's game, Milwaukee, is a seven-and-a-half-point favorite in game one over the Hawks. After both of these teams won dramatic game sevens over the weekend, and they got proper rest time. I like Milwaukee to hammer Atlanta in game one tonight. I think that Atlanta's just happy to be there. Look, Milwaukee is there also with Yannis and Yannis coming off his signature career. game in the game seven win over the nets. But I like Milwaukee big tonight, length seven and a

half. All right. That's it for the show. Back tomorrow, not with Tom. Tom's taking tomorrow off. Tom will be with me on Thursday. I am efforting to get another guest to join us on the show tomorrow. Have a great day.