The Kevin Sheehan Show - McLaurin News + US Open

Episode Date: June 20, 2022

Kevin responded to the latest report on contract negotiations between Terry McLaurin and the Washington Commanders. Kevin talked US Open and had local favorite Denny McCarthy on the show. Denny was in contention for much of the day yesterday at the Open. Howard Gutman jumped on to talk about the latest on the Snyder vs House Oversight "testimony" situation.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Cheon Show. Here's Kevin. Contact. What a pressure shot. Big time.

Clush shot by Fitzpatrick. What a shot that was from Matt Fitzpatrick. What a U.S. Open this was over the weekend. I think golf fans really enjoyed it. But that nine iron from a fairway bunker on the final hole in the final round, 137 yards. He said he had struggled with fairway bunker shots all year long. He knocked it onto the green. He two putted. Will Zalotors, who's been so close, missed a birdie putt that would have forced a playoff. And Matt Fitzpatrick is your U.S.

Open winner. A cool $3.15 million to him, not live tour money, but still pretty good money for Matt Fitzpatrick, who wins for the first time in the United States. As a professional, he won the U.S. amateur at the same golf course in Brookline Mass back in 2013. I've been a fan of his. A lot of you who are golf fans have seen this coming. He is a talent. He wins. He beats Zalotaurus and Shephler by shot.

Matsuyama by three shots. Morikawa and Rory McElroy by four shots. McElroy shooting a one under 69, nowhere near good enough. and then tied for seventh was Denny McCarthy. We've had Denny on the show before. I've had him on the radio show as well. Denny's a Georgetown prep grad, a UVA grad. He's been on the tour for several years.

He's been knocking on the door for a win. And yesterday he was in contention. He went out three under in his first five holes, had it to two under par. He got as close as two shots from the lead. He was featured for much of the day. yesterday on the coverage of the U.S. Open. Denny is going to be my guest here in a few minutes, and we'll hear about his round. Now, I thought it was great. You know, I know a lot of people

would have preferred, you know, Rory to make a big run or for ROM to be there. If you're a golf fan, having the number one player in the world in Schaeffler, having guys like Fitzpatrick and Zalotoros and Matsuyama shooting a 65 on the final day, more a Cali. had a crazy tournament. Sixty-nine, 66, then shot 77 in his third round, shot another 66. He was in the hunt. I think a lot of people were rooting for Rory to win for the first time in eight years, a major. He's a roller coaster, man. It's like you think he, you know, fired a 67 in the first round, and maybe this is going to be it. But he just never really got it going yesterday to get in legit contention.

It was a little bit softer yesterday, which allowed the scores to be much better than they were on what was a brutal third round, windy conditions. We felt that here all weekend long. What a beautiful weekend it was here. But you've got some great young players, and this is why the PGA tour, if you're a golf fan, is still going to be awesome.

No matter who jumps to the live tour. Abraham answer the latest. to go there, as if the PGA tour is going to desperately miss answer. Plenty of talented up-and-comers, and Matt Fitzpatrick gets his first win. It was great. Now, one criticism of the tournament, I thought NBC's coverage was brutal yesterday in particular. Now, I know they went uninterrupted for the final hour of coverage, but man, there were a lot of commercials. It seemed like every two minutes you were going to a commercial break. I'm not a big fan right now of NBC's coverage in particular.

I'm a big Tariko fan. Don't get me wrong. I'm not a massive Aisinger fan. I think he's too cliche driven to be a number one analyst. I loved Johnny Miller. I know that he was super polarizing, but I really like Johnny Miller on this coverage. Johnny would be critical.

He would say what was on his mind sometimes, and most of the time, unfiltered. I think Dan Hicks does a decent enough job. I thought that they shrunk the leaderboard from a full-screen kiron standpoint, not full-screen, partial-screen Kiron standpoint, much too early. They had decided long before, you know, I thought it had been decided that essentially there were three or four players that had a chance. They were right, as it turned out. I think they could have made it a little bit bigger. They used these animated NFL, well, football, goalposts as sort of a graphic on drive so that you could see where the players should be aiming

and then they used the tracer to go through that. I thought that was incredibly hokey. There was a lot about the coverage. Yesterday in particular was frustrating, I think, for a lot of people. They got to pay the bills. I understand this. It's an expensive product that they have. This is, you know, this is, look, the Masters is, you know, I think probably the most watched. I would guess the Open is the second most watched. I love the Open. I love the courses that the Open has played on. And I thought that Brookline, the Country Club at Brookline, it being one of these kind of classic old city courses or close enough to the city course.

not these big fairways with big greens, but small greens and big slopy greens and, you know, downhill lies and sidehill lies and narrow fareways. I thought it meant, but made for a tremendous golf television over the weekend. I enjoyed it a lot. Again, not thrilled with NBC's coverage, but I thought it was exciting. Even though, you know, there was no tiger, there was no Phil, Rory. I think, you know, if he had made a move, that would have been a big deal. ROM really faded yesterday shooting 74, you know, but the players that have been really coming were right there.

And Denny McCarthy was one of them, and we'll talk to Denny here shortly about his round. But I really enjoyed the U.S. Open over the weekend. Watched a lot of it, hours upon hours of it. There's Commander's News, and Howard Gutman's going to join us to talk about the back and forth between Dan Snyder and his attorneys and Congress. But there's other commanders news. ESPN's Jeremy Fowler earlier today on SportsCenter, so I guess that was this morning,

reported that Washington tried to intensify contract talks with Terry McLaren last week, perhaps even hoped to get something done and have McLaren report for the final day of minicamp, but no deal came to fruition. That was from Jeremy Fowler this morning on Sports Center. Well, on Thursday's podcast at the end of the podcast, I mentioned to Tommy and to all of you that I had gotten a text message

right before we finished up the podcast from somebody indicating that a deal with Terry McClearn was more likely than not going to happen much sooner rather than later. The quote I used was, this was not going to be a deadlines makes deals situation. Like it wasn't going to be training camp when this happened. It was going to happen much sooner. In fact, it was indicated to me that it was imminent.

And I think what Fowler is saying is that the team perhaps thought it was imminent last week, that they intensified their contract talks. Maybe that means they up their offer and they assumed that it would get done and that Terry McCorn might report for the final day of mini-camp. which would have been a huge win for them. It's going to be a huge win for them whenever they get a deal done, and I think they will get a deal done. But the fact that a deal didn't get done just tells you that, you know,

the team isn't where Terry wants to be or Terry's representation wants it to be. Now, I don't know if that means that Terry's just asking for something that's way too high or that the team even after intensifying contract talks are still way off or way low. I don't know what the specifics of that. I am, and I'll say this for maybe the fifth time in the last week and a half, I'm skeptical that the team would low ball Terry McClorn. I am skeptical about that. They need him.

They traded for Carson Wentz. We know how big of a year this is for the team. Ron Rivera told us that. The team two years ago offered Amari Cooper over $20 million per year. He stayed in Dallas. it's not like they were cheap there. They've made big offers and trades for people like Matt Stafford and Russell Wilson. And by the way, you know, sort of overpaid, considering the context of the situation for Carson Wentz.

So I'm a little bit skeptical that with a guy like Terry McCorn, who they love and who is a big part of the culture of, you know, the culture change of this organization, that they would low ball them. So that's my guess that maybe Terry's asking for a number that the team. doesn't want to go to and maybe the team intensified it by upping their offer significantly, but maybe it still wasn't enough for Terry. I still think this deal will get done. I still think he will be a Washington commander this year and not on the fourth year of his deal. It doesn't make sense for him to give up, you know, generational wealth with whatever the guarantee would be, you know, 50 million or 65 million or whatever they're, you know, quibbling over for the risk of playing at $2.75 million or whatever it is

and potentially never seeing a deal like that if he were to get injured or seriously injured. I think it makes sense for him to come to a long-term deal with this team, and I think it makes sense for the team to do it, which is why I would guess it will get done. But I think the team last week, and I think the news that some of us probably got, was that the team was excited that they were nearing a deal

in their mind's eye, but perhaps it wasn't reciprocated. We'll see. Stay tuned. Up next, Denny McCarthy was right there, especially early in the day at the U.S. Open yesterday. You will hear my interview with him when we return right after these words from a few of our sponsors. What a U.S. Open it was. Matt Fitzpatrick winning when Will Zalotaurus's Bertie Putt on 18 just made.

missed left of the whole Matt Fitzpatrick, the winner, first time winner in the U.S. But for a lot of people here, certainly in areas of Montgomery County, we were all paying attention and watching Denny McCarthy's round. Denny has been on the show a few times before. Denny's a local, went to Georgetown Prep, went to UVA, has been on the tour now for several years. And man, you were in contention yesterday. It was so exciting watching and watching you at one point when the leaders were at four,

you were two shots tied for third. I think, you know, I don't know if you went back or if you even knew this at the time. I think that was as close as it got and was your highest standing on the leaderboard. Am I right or wrong? I think you're right. Yeah, it was, man, it was such a cool week. I just had so much fun. I'm really proud of myself.

It's amazed just how comfortable and calm I was in that situation. Really, honestly, I felt like I played well enough yesterday to win the U.S. Open. That's kind of the mindset I wanted to have going into the round. I just wanted to, you know, not, you know, I just wanted to put up a winning performance with kind of my mindset. Like, you know, I just wanted to go out and put up, like, something great. Like, I just wanted to do something cool yesterday. and I had that mindset, and I hit the ball great and putted well, too. I just was kind of a hot putter away on the weekend from being just right there.

Ultimately, I was just probably just a few shots too far back to, you know, really make a splash. But it was, you know, I was right there in the mix of it. You know, got up to a great start yesterday, 300 through 5 and, you know, put myself right in the take of thing. So that's what you want. so much fun this week and just really proud of how I handled myself. Denny finished one under par. He bogeyed 18. We'll talk about that hole because they followed you on NBC all the way down the stretch

because you had a legit shot to get to 3 under where Hadeki was, you know, and in the clubhouse with the lead. And when you were hot early, there was a lot of watching Denny on TV. To be honest with you, we all watch, you know, a week in and week out. and when you're in the hunt or you're playing well, I think yesterday at the open was as much TV time as you've gotten, I don't know, I mean, this isn't something you keep track of everybody else does, but it was awesome to watch.

Denny, for those that don't know, finished tied for seventh after bogeying 18. It's a top 10 finish, his best finish ever at a major championship. So you kind of talked a little bit about what it was like to be in the hunt and how comfortable you were, but let's just go. to yesterday morning before your tea time. First of all, at, you know, plus one, which is where you were, and I think tied for 11th, what did you think the number was that you were going to have to shoot to win? You know, I didn't really come up with the number, but I figured there were so many got, you know, top players towards the top of the leaderboard, they weren't all going to fall back.

You know, I figured it was going to hang around five under, which it did. So, I wasn't really thinking about that number, you know, in my head. I was just, like I said, I was just trying to go out and with a great mindset to just execute every shot and not be scared and just just really commit to every shot and make a nice, a nice committed swing on every, on every shot. And I did a really good job of that yesterday. And like I said, I mean, I had a lot of putts that that didn't go in. a couple momentum swings, middle of the round, almost make up 30-footer for birdie on nine, and then missed a shorty coming back and then almost make one on 10.

So instead of picking up maybe one or two, I dropped one, which was kind of costly at that point in the round. But I played get myself a lot of looks on the back nine to try and give myself a chance. And, you know, that's what you want. You want to have a chance on the back nine of a major on a Sunday. And obviously I haven't done that in a major championship before. So that was really cool to just see how comfortable I was in that spot. And, you know, I'm really looking forward to getting right back in that position. You know, you are, and for those that follow you, we know this, you're one of the best putters on tour.

And so do you ultimately attribute, you know, this weekend to basically you putted well, but you didn't have a hot putter that a hot putter that a, that, that, that, hot putter for you would have legitimately given you a chance to win this thing? Oh, 100%. I mean, I, you know, I hit the ball well enough this weekend to shoot four, five under both days. So, I mean, I'm not disappointed with 68, 68 on the weekend of a major, but, and it sounds weird saying for me that it could have been a lot better because my ball striking was that good, but it really was. I feel like it could have been a lot better. But that's, you know, that just shows that I can do more than putt.

You know, like my game is in really good shape right now. I can play and ball strike my way around a hard golf course. And my ball striking was really the main component that kept me in it all week. So I'm really proud of just how I, you know, committed to a lot of hard golf shots and executed a lot of them. I ran into your uncle Mike Saturday morning, and he said that Friday, your 70, should have been a lot better. You just made the cut at plus three. You shot 73 in the first round.

You shot 70 in the second round. You pared 18 in the second round to make the cut. Now, I don't think you knew it necessarily at the time. But of the four rounds, which was the round where you hit it best? And if you had had the hot putter, you would have scored a lot. better. I mean, really, I hit a great, I mean, I was five over through 15 holes on Thursday, and then I birdied my last two holes on Thursday to just shoot three over. And honestly, I played very similarly on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. I hit it, I hit a great all three of

those days. Let a few get away from me to those days around the green, a couple of wed shots that I would have like to hit maybe a little closer and a handful of putts that, you know, I thought I got putted bad. The greens have so much slope that it's hard to be perfectly dialed in. I mean, I hit so many putts that, you know, burned the edge, flipped out, just ran out at speed, maybe a touch too much speed, but just so many puts that touched the hole. It was frustrating to see. I mean, I made some nice putts, too. Don't get me wrong. I mean, I made a couple decent length puts and some shorter ones with a lot of break and touch you ones down the hill. But, you know, I do that all the time.

So it's like, you know, I expect some of those to go in. And I was maybe looking for a few more here or there to kind of just give me a little more of a momentum boost. But, man, I mean, I just, I played so well. I'm just, like I said, I'm looking forward to getting right back into that spot because now I know I can compete and win majors. I want to ask you about the 18th. yesterday. First of all, you know, there was a gallery around your approach shot. And it was kind of cool to see, you know, just you with a massive gallery around you. And you certainly, you said it at the very beginning of this conversation that you felt totally comfortable.

And you looked comfortable out there. But what was it like, especially, you know, it's a U.S. Open in Boston with the kind of sports fans Boston has. What was it like? being out there in that scene? I mean, so cool. I mean, I grew up going to, you know, with my dad and my Uncle Mike and my brother and a couple of my dad and Uncle Mike, a couple of their friends. I grew up going to a bunch of the East Coast U.S. Open, the first, you know, we always drove up like first thing Thursday morning and stayed through Friday, you know, Pinehurst, Oakmont, Wingfoot, Shinnock, all those opens. And we went until, you know, the first few days. So, you know, I, you know, loved that atmosphere when I was a kid.

Like, you know, I was a kid and, you know, in the gallery and, you know, standing around the players at that time hitting those shots. So it's just like, you know, me hitting, you know, these big time shots with the big time crowds around me. It's cool. I mean, I was exposed to at a young age. And, you know, I'm a huge competitor. and I love sports and like, you know, that doesn't get much better than that for me.

You know, I'm contending in a U.S. Open and I got crowds cheering my names and a ton of people following me. And, you know, I love it. I love being in that spot. Yeah. People that have listened before have heard me say this about you, but for those that are listening for their first time, Denny was a hell of a high school basketball player to boot.

I wanted to find out about the, you know, the eight to the shot on 18. that looked like a really difficult lie. What was it? What did it look like to you? And you were legit pissed after the shot. And I could tell you wanted to get in there with a par and at least be at two under. What did that shot look like?

Yeah, the second shot is really tough. You want to be in the fairway coming into that green. Obviously, I had somewhat of a clean line in the right rough, kind of matted down, gallery grass. It was kind of hard to tell if it was going to come out jumpy or spinny. And that's, you know, that's the penalty you pay for, you know, missing the fairway. It kind of becomes a guessing game, and then you need to be thinking about where you want to leave it if you don't pull the shot off.

And I was trying to – my line was trying to hit it on the tongue of that bunker. And if it comes up short, it goes in the bunker. If it goes over the green or if it lands on the green, it might go over the left side, which gives me a better angle for it. my short game shot. And it just happened, it happened to land in that tongue of the bunker and kind of end up and just a really guessy, dodgy lie in some of the fescue on the face of that bunker. So it ended up in a pretty unfortunate spot.

I hit a much better shot for it to end up there. But, you know, like I said, that sometimes that's the price you pay for missing the fairway in a U.S. Open. It was kind of a guest chip shot. I had to air on the side of caution. I didn't want to hit it too soft and leave it there and, you know, end up making a six or whatever. I had to make sure it was a professional guest, if you will.

And, you know, it came out a little hotter than I expected. And, you know, disappointing to end up with a bogey, but it was still such a fun week. Were you scoreboard watching it all? or was your caddy telling you, you know, when you got to 16, 17, 17, I think Hadeki was already in at that point at 3 under. Yeah, I knew I was, you know, I saw myself, I knew I was at 2 and I knew the guys leading were at 5. And it wasn't, it was playing hard, but not hard enough where they were going to make, you know, a couple bogeys. I knew I needed to make some birdies and at least get the 4 under, maybe 5 under, you know, ultimately, obviously it ended up being.

six under. And, you know, I just, I kind of ran out of holes, obviously, at the end. But, I mean, I gave myself so many chances in the middle and middle of the rounds that I just didn't convert on. And there was just, I think I was just a couple shots too far back to start the day. It was obviously seemed like I was right in the mix. Once I got off to that good start, I just, it's hard to kind of keep that going, just playing a handful of tough hole.

That was awesome, though, the start. I mean, to be three under on the day through five and, you know, to have it where you had it at two under par and to be, you know, right there and being talked about was really cool. We are talking to Denny McCarthy. Denny finished tied for seventh at the U.S. Open over the weekend. Part of the story was the golf course. What was it like to play it? It says it was unique. I mean, we don't play courses typically that have that many blind shots and just all.

A lot of greens had so much slope. They had to put pins in really, really similar places on a handful of the holes just because there is no other places to put pins. So in that regard, you know, I thought they set it up very fair because they could have gotten carried away on some of those greens and maybe tried to mess around with like a hard pin, but maybe it would have crossed the line. So I thought they did a good job of kind of setting up the. the course, very, it was hard enough golf course.

They set it up very fair. It was still a great challenge. Denny's going to play at the Travelers this weekend in Connecticut. So was there a call or a congratulations from somebody that sort of stood out after yesterday? And I know you didn't win and you wanted to win, but still the tie for seventh was, you know, a huge step for you. Did you hear from anybody that would be interesting to those that are listening? No, just a bunch of family and friends. I had a lot of tech that I think I got back to everyone

last night. It took me a few hours to get through everyone, but just a lot of family and friends close to me, just telling me how proud they were and they really enjoyed watching and how comfortable and calm I looked. All encouraging things. I'm very blessed and thankful, I have a great support system behind me and people that believe in me. Congratulations. It was fun to pay attention to and follow and then really be able to watch, you know, over the weekend, especially yesterday morning and yesterday afternoon. You're going to break through.

I think everybody feels that about you. And yesterday was a big step in that direction. Really appreciate the time, Denny. Best of luck. We'll talk soon. Thanks, Kevin. I appreciate it. Up next, Howard Gutman.

will be on the show. We'll talk about the back and forth between Dan Snyder and his attorneys and Congress. We'll do that right after these words from a few of our sponsors. However you're listening to this podcast, if it allows you to rate or review or both this podcast, if you don't mind, spend 30 to 60 seconds and do it. It's a huge help for us, especially on Apple and Spotify. Apple allows you to rate us up to five stars. That would be great, and a quick one to two. sentence review helps out as well. Joining me now is my friend Howard Gutman. Howard was the ambassador to Belgium during the Obama years and he was a longtime prominent DC attorney. Howard has a radio show on Richmond's 1140 a.m. and 96.1 FM. It's called As I See It on Saturday mornings from 10 to 11 a.m.

You can listen to that whenever you want by downloading the Auditist. app. You can listen to my radio show on the Odyssey app as well. Howard joins us right now. So over the last week, Howard, there's been the response by Snyder's attorney to Congress about this June 22nd request for him to testify. Goodell is going to testify via Zoom. Snyder got back to Congress giving a list of reasons as to why he couldn't do it. Then Congress responded. and then Congress responded again early this morning. I'm just going to let you take it and explain everything that's happened really here over the last week and catch everybody up to speed and then we can have you predict some of the things that will happen as well.

So, Kevin, we've seen all of the dancers give their best pirouette, and we're just waiting for the final curtain so they can all come out, having played their roles, take their bow and get their standing ovation. because this has really been just a, really a preset drama, except it's more like a comedy, which is Carol Maloney is, you know, in a heated race this year. Her district got cut up, and she has a 30-year Democratic opponent in the primary. And she is really focused on the female vote because she's running against a male. And this is a good topic.

sexual misconduct in the workplace, in men's football. It was a good topic on the Black Lives Matter world. It's a good topic on sexual harassment. And there is no better whipping boy than Dan Snyder, who has nobody blamed for that for themselves. I don't want to be too facetious. There was a horrendous workplace environment. People need to stand up and take responsibility.

To their credit, not to their credit, Dan said, oh my God, look what happened when I wasn't that involved. Someone called Larry Michael and Bruce Allen and find out what happened. But now I'm here and I've brought in the highest woman in sports. I've brought in the highest black in sports general manager president of team. We are now a model. In any event, though, the House realized that when they started this investigation, they were getting good publicity.

The only thing better would be to get Roger Goodell and Dan Snyder in a chair and, you know, bark at them. And yet, to actually do this right would have been way too difficult. So they sent a letter. They made their posturing, their initial letter from the House Oversight Reform Committee, telling why he should be there. The problem is it used to be good in the good old days. It used to be easy to avoid these kind of things because busy executives could be out of town.

We know Dan spends the summers, particularly before training camp on his boat. That is why our team was, the final two names for our team was the commanders or the admirals because Dan is the commander in chief on his boat. That's your theory. And so we know we know he spends that in that period these six weeks in the south of France on his boat. And so that would normally be, boy, I'd love to testify, but I'm busy. Dan responded back to the letter. I'm busy on commanders' business abroad, which was so silly.

He always has to go that XDR. What commander's business abroad was Dan Snyder? Was he looking for Sammis Reyes' childhood roots? Like, what could that be? He's on his boat in the south of France. I guarantee you that trip is not paid for by the commanders. It wasn't a business trip. And if it is paid for by the commanders, let's get an IRS investigation going.

Because he's on the boat in the south of France. Supposedly there's some award they're picking up. Well, I'm sure the award was arranged when he'd be on the boat in south of France. But the problem with Dan's position was, first of all, if he has to make a meeting in Washington, he gets off his boat and flies back, makes the meeting. I assure you if the governor of Virginia wanted to talk about how much money Virginia could give for the new stadium, Dan would fly back for a day or two and then rejoin his group off the boat.

So he obviously wasn't going to do that for the House Oversight Committee. But now we have the modern world of Zoom. Now, I didn't think the House Oversight Committee would accept Zoom because there's no better television than having them there sweating with their, you know, sitting there on the camera while the question is higher above them on the podium, on the bench above them. But they were willing to take Zoom, which means Dan had no out.

Having no out, he paid Sullivan and Cromwell. Dan's lawyer is a terrific lawyer. I suspect she, Nancy Psemore probably bills at least 1,500 an hour and maybe 2,000 an hour. And she did her best to say, this process is not fair. Why? You just say, well, we don't know what you're going to ask. We know, well, that's the point. So he had a rather weak response.

So Carol Maloney said, oh boy, that was so weak. Why don't we make him look bad? Why don't we write back? The problem is I actually think in the letter back, the house made a mistake. Because instead of saying we urge him to give his evidence, they said if he doesn't appear, he can't take responsibility for the environment he created. They convicted him in the letter that they were urging him to come back. and I would have taken, I haven't seen the letter back, I've seen them say, we're not showing because the process is unfair, but they did overstep, if they're having a hearing, they've already tried and convicted them already. So in any event, Dan isn't showing.

Boy, that's an interesting point. Like, first of all, that's not what these, you know, him coming to testify is supposed to be about. and yet they've already created the judgment on their behalf that he's guilty before he arrives. So would you have responded to that with, well, you've already shown your bias. We're not going to come and testify. I absolutely would have. And the reason I would have is one of your questions will be, well, what about the superior route? Now, first of all, the superior route, obviously, if you're in France, it takes months.

and very limited reasons for why a French magistrate would issue a subpoena when requested by the Justice Department to the French magistrate, that would have taken months. That's not happening. But Dan eventually will have to come back to the shores of the United States because his football team will be playing football eventually. And would they be willing to set a new hearing? Would they be willing to do it all again? Could they get the time? Could they get the dates?

probably not, but let's say they would. If they subpoenaed him, the next step would be the attorneys would move to quash the subpoena. The media generally believes, oh, they only sent a letter, but if they sent a subpoena, that's sort of like a magnet. He would have to be attracted right to that seat in the Capitol. No, the subpoena says, we have the right underlaw to require you. That's just a different ballet. In that case, the attorney then moves to quack. the subpoena. And the line that they did there, convicting him of this, really undermined two things that they were doing fact-finding for sexual harassment in the workplace. And that they are not doing this as an indictment of Dan Snyder personally. And that letter no longer sounds like

that. So I would then move to class the subpoena. Whoever wins that round, you move to appeal. whoever wins that round, you move for a stay to go to the Supreme Court, you get the picture the season's over long to go, and Cara Maloney is not in the majority come January. So subpoena's not happening, Dan's not happening, but Roger Goodell is coming, or at least on Zoom. Yeah, I'll ask you about the Roger Goodell thing on Wednesday, and he's agreed to testify via Zoom.

What was just going back to what you kind of brought into the equation, which maybe many of you who are listening, knew that that's what the letter said. It had sort of convicted him of being responsible for the workplace environment when, in fact, what they really were looking to have him come testify was to, you know, kind of help them on some of the things they've been working on. I mean, Maloney introduced two pieces of legislation last week based off of, their investigation into the commanders. One thing called the accountability for workplace misconduct act and another called the Professional Images Protection Act, which actually stems from the allegations about these videos of the cheerleaders being made for Snyder, etc. But what was the, do you have in front of you that letter from last week and the line that specifically kind of overreaches or, you know, kind of shows their bias towards Snyder?

I'm just curious specifically as to what it says. The letter said, in light of these accommodations and the importance of Mr. Snyder's testimony, I urge Mr. Snyder to reconsider his decision to decline public testimony, and by doing so, here's the key language, refusing to accept accountability for his actions and the culture he has fostered within his team. So they already said he's refusing to accept. the accountability for his actions, and that he fostered the culture. And, you know, as the lawyer, I would say, hold on there, as Quicksdrault McGraw-Magra used to say,

hold on there, we're not there. We've never said that. Maybe if you had a real mensch witness, you know, which is not Dan Snyder, but could be Goodell. If you had a mensch witness, he would say, look, of course I didn't know people were abusing the calendar, you know, with the cheerleaders and the photos. And I would have fired people in a minute. But the buck stops with me because it's my team.

I should have known. I take full responsibility. Those words cannot come out of Dan Snyder's mouth. So that's not going to happen. Right. But that's what could have happened. Boy, that really, I mean, going back years now, if he just at some point accepted responsibility and said,

you know, as Harry Truman once said, the buck stops here. I mean, at least he wouldn't be so despisable, which he, so despised, which he is, but that's the problem is it's never been his fault. I mean, you just reminded me, and I mentioned this a lot, and I understand this. You early in your description of what's going on currently,

you know, said, well, you know, that was Bruce and Larry Michael. You threw Larry's name in there. And again, 80% plus of all. All of these accusations, allegations, and what Beth Wilkinson was investigated, investigating happened before Bruce even got here. They happened, you know, prior to 2010 when Dan was supposedly super hands-on. And that's the part where I would say to them, if they ever asked me, stop pushing this narrative of you weren't paying attention. And, you know, it was kind of Bruce's fault.

They're talking about things that happened before Bruce ever got. got here. Nobody seems to be nailing them down on that, which is very interesting to me. All right, so you've explained this subpoena. Kevin, yeah. If he was a different kind of owner, if he was a

different kind of person, a different kind of man, he would have been the most horrified to hear about the photographs. He wouldn't have needed Debrae Katz to file 20 lawsuits. He wouldn't have needed the league to call for an investigation, and you certainly wouldn't if needed the Hill to call for the investigation, he would have been horrified, he would have led it,

and the like. But if that were him, we probably would have had four Super Bowls and the nicest stadium in the world. It's just not the man. No, it's not. This is the thing that we have learned about him. There is an insecurity. There is a self-absorption. There is, you know, and I've described it this way so many times, but he's unwilling and incapable of admitting that, any of what's happened over the last 22 years has anything to do with him. You know, I know when the Wilkinson investigation came out and when the $10 million, you know, so-called fine was levied against the team, there was some written, you know, a reflection, some mention of remorse, but for the most part, it's just never been his fault.

All right. So you've got us up to speed with everything's going. going here. The net of it is he'll never, ever appear in front of Congress unless they were to subpoena him and the Democrats were to somehow hold onto the House in November. They would need to subpoena him. There would be a year of litigation to quash that subpoena. So we're now talking 24. And then in 2024, anybody would have had to be focusing on still, and the Democrats would still have to be in office, and Karen Muloney would still have to be in Congress. So nothing is happening in our immediate future in the next year of Dan Snyder

testifying about workplace misconduct. All right. What happens with Roger Goodell on Wednesday? So this is fascinating. I think conventional wisdom is he's there to deflect and he's there to say it's attorney client and the like, I don't believe that. I think we've seen a lot from Roger Goodell that has surprised me. Like, for example, with the Black Lives Matter and the Colin Kaepernick, he did the owner's bidding for a long time of saying, you've got to go out for the national anthem, you can't kneel. And then at one point, he finally, after George Floyd, he finally said, you know what? We were wrong and made a long videotape saying that the players were out ahead of us. They had the moral conscience.

They understood these issues. We were late to the party, but we're here now. And I think he might see a lot of that right now from Roger Goodell. He will probably say, we aren't the only industry, the entertainment industry, the music industry, where respect for gender did not meet proper standards. So we relate to the party, but we are on top of it. We investigate them with the very best. We look all the time to see it, and we have increasing standards, increasing ethics officers,

and you're seeing a different NFL. You're seeing the differences in dance squads and cheerleaders. You're seeing understandings. Look at Deshaun Watson. They're going to push for a year probably. And he's going to say, we're not there yet, but we continue to try to do better. So if he defangs the tiger, you don't get dead if you either defang the tiger or hide from the tiger. And he might try to defang the tiger, not just hide from the tiger.

Okay. Well, will Dan Snyder be a part of the defanging of the tiger? So here's the one issue, which is what about the Wilkinson report? And I suspect what he's going to say is there is none written. That was because at the time that was the consensus for the, people whose denny's were involved were there, were at issue. We made that decision. But what I did was I came out in no uncertain terms, condemned the organization for rampant

impropriety and find them $10 million. And we were certainly not soft on the Redskin organization whatsoever. So Roger Goodell needs that is the one hard issue. What did Beth Wilkinson say about Dan Snyder? and why was there no report? And before they agreed to appear by Zoom, Jeff Pash, the General Counsel of the NFL, and Roger Goodell, and their public relations squad,

reviewed that answer many, many times. Kevin, you cannot believe how protected that organization is. Jeff Pash is a 40-year friend of mine, and I have a Saturday morning radio show on the Odyssey app on Enrichment, and Jeff had agreed to be a guest on my show. I have a 15-minute guest each week. And by the time every question got vetted by the NFL staff, Jeff just said, Howard, it's just easier not to come on.

So I assure you that Beth Wilkinson answer will be perfectly choreographed, perfectly tailored. But beyond that, I suspect you'll see a contrite Roger Goodell saying, we can do better. And that will help the owners. Now, here's some other issues. Mark Davis, for the Raiders, for the Vegas Raiders, he has these same allegations right now. And that's Mary Joe White. Jerry Jones' allegations, the photography in their cheerleader's room and the firing of a long time, well-respected club official. But he's going to say we get the best to investigate fully.

We don't prejudge the facts, but we are not lax when the facts show that there was wrongdoing. and I think you'll see a contrite and helpful Roger Goodell with some heat about Dan Snyder. So wouldn't one of the questions of Goodell be, what did Beth Wilkinson recommend based on her findings? And since we suspect, the answer was that Dan no longer hold of the club, Roger's going to have to say, we asked her for the fact investigation. The way we operate as a league is it's 32 owners.

We get the best fact investigation. The determination should be a $10 million fine, a $1 million fine, a termination. That's pursuant to the owners of the league who own these franchises. They own NFL football. And so any recommendation by Beth would have been a personal opinion. But this would be the opportunity, would it not to, isn't it true, Mr. Goodell that Beth Wilkinson recommended that Dan Snyder be forced out as owner of the team. Why didn't you take her recommendation? I mean, to almost state it as fact.

Right. I agree, and that would be great. If I was answering back, if I prepped it might say, actually, there was no call for the recommendation of punishment. She may have express personal opinions, and I do believe she thought it would be appropriate, but that determination goes to the owners. There are a lot of other considerations. Remember, there are contractsual rights here about ownership, and unless there were findings that could support that, unless we would lose in court. But in any event, that wasn't my judgment or her judgment. That's the 32 owners, but I believe we acted appropriately in coming down with a very heavy fine, and we didn't mince words there.

We made it clear that the Redskins were out of control, and that had to change. And by the way, they have changed. Look at Julie Donaldson, the highest-ranking female, look at Martin Mayhew, look at the present of the club. They are right now a model of diversity and social consciousness. But you say appropriate, and yet, Isn't it true, Beth Wilkinson recommended that he be forced out as owner?

And really at the end of the day, you find the team $10 million. Dan Snyder made it very clear through his attorneys that he wasn't specifically fined. And there was no suspension at all. And yet you consider that appropriate when her recommendation was for him to be forced out as owner. Again, if I were Goodell, I would quibble with the recommendation issue because she wasn't there. But I agree.

That's the reason why I thought Goodell couldn't get through this. Ultimately, Goodell could answer everything else but that. But I got to tell you, they didn't agree to go forward without rehearsing that a lot of times. But there could be, I mean, this is going to be a bit of a show, isn't it? I mean, there could be a lot of those, isn't it true, Mr. Goodell? And we might learn a lot about what was in that Wilkinson investigation and what was in that oral report. Or at least, you know, if you take whatever Chris Mithori and Maloney and any of these other people ask Goodell, I mean, there could be several of those, isn't it true that Dan Snyder did this? Right. So that's the subset we want to focus on, which is Goodell can fall back easily on saying we were harsh on the club that we gave Beth free reign, that we made a determination as to what former report should be in.

The question about what Beth actually said about Dan Snyder, does he answer it? Is that one of those attorney clients? and it may be, it may be he says the specifics of it are attorney-client, but I can tell you we acted harshly given the general nature of the report, so avoid all specifics. That may be their tactics. Remember, if he answers, whatever he answers, it's a valid answer. It's not like he's committing contempt of a subpoena or anything else. So if he can declare that the specifics were supposed to be protected, that was something that was agreed to by attorneys and clients and the NFL. And I can't get in the specifics.

But I can tell you, it was a serious report. We hammered the Redskins and we came down on a fine. As to the who shot Johns, the who and the Johns are all privileged, and I can't get there. That's one possibility. Another possibility is she didn't even get there because that wasn't her. mandate. But they have an answer, Kevin. They would not let him go in. And I don't believe he's going in. Maybe that would be a great idea if the other owners sent him in to go bury Dan Snyder, but I don't think that's what we're going to see. It might be, but I don't think it.

Right. But I'm just wondering if it could end up being a show for these people on the House Oversight and Reform Committee. You know, one of the things I don't think I've asked you about in previous discussions is what Mark Maskey reported. It was on the heels of that USA Today report that said they're counting votes, remember. And then Masky came out and said, what the owners really want is they want a significant suspension of Dan Snyder. That that's something that they feel like Goodell didn't deliver on based on the Wilkinson findings. Could any of this tomorrow, not tomorrow, Wednesday, could any of that lead to ultimately, you know, and by the way, after the conclusion of the Mary Joe White investigation, could it, you know,

could it lead to a reconsideration of the overall discipline of Snyder, which is now about a year ago? So it's possible, but the most likely scenario is we are counting noses. The magic number is 24 owners want him out. Once 24 owners want him out, they're saying we're willing to put up with whatever lawsuit he brings against us. We're ready to cross that line. The more likely result, therefore, is that whatever happens on Wednesday, however it goes, however it looks, convinces others of those 32 that the line has been crossed,

they have to have him go. So we might inch closer to him being gone. The suspension, given that it's Tanya, you know, that gives him the headache without much of the release. He's back, right? It's not going anywhere. Yeah, I just remember, and I just pulled it up, the quote from Maskey's story about a month ago, from an owner on the condition of anonymity, quote, there's certainly concern, there's anger, but there's quite a difference between wishing he was gone and taking steps to force him out, closed quote. and all of the other owners quoted were,

seemed to be disappointed with the way Goodell handled the first, you know, fine and lack of a suspension, however it went. All right, different subject real quickly, and then I'll let you run. You know I always appreciate this. What's going to happen to Deshaun Watson here? What can the league do before any of these civil cases are settled? are over with.

So the civil cases, the league can choose to take them into account, but the league doesn't. He could win every civil case. He could have won not being indicted, and they still can suspend him for years. It's about their relationship with the Players Association. They can have a finding of wrongdoing. Often on, let's say, domestic violence cases, the victim recants. The victims who I want my husband to lose his job.

but that's not the term of. The Lee can do whatever they want. It seems to me that one of the major people who are going to get in trouble over the Dan Snyder investigation is Deshaun Watson. Because the last thing Goodell wants to do now is go easy on Deshaun Watson and add to the fire. So I think it is fully in the NFL's interest. It's defensive of Goodell in the NFL that they hammer Watson. So they feel that the narrative is not. This is just an old man's club protecting each other.

Now, the difference will be they're going hard after the black young athlete and not after the old rich white owner. Right. But at least they're being respectful of women and that their players have to learn that just because you were a star in college, doesn't give you a license to abuse women. Do you think the NFLPA is in a difficult situation? Because they will, you know, in most cases, they'll be required to defend him

to negotiate on his behalf in terms of whatever Goodell wants to bring down. Gadell is not the final answer on this stuff anymore as he was prior to the last CBA. Is it a tough spot for the Players Association in this particular circumstance? I don't think so because ultimately the Players Association are going to regard it as there was no violence. There's a lot of people and it's in that setting, but we're not talking about violence. We're not talking about one Ray Rice. You know, we're not talking about someone being smacked in an elevator. And so always, if you leave it to the association of, of, you know,

32 rich white men being fueled by a woke economy, in their words, in their view. The black athletes can take it on the chin, and he didn't do, a lot of people have done a lot worse without getting a one-year suspension. So I think they can easily defend Deshaun Watson without looking like, you know, how could you possibly say this if he was molesting children or something? I think it's their job. Often you think how could their lawyer do that, but it's their job. It's the job of the Players Association to make sure that players are not scapegoated for leagues trying to protect themselves,

and that's exactly how that we're regarded. At the Howard Gutman on Twitter, his radio show on the Odyssey app, or if you're in Richmond, you can listen to it on 1140 a.m. or 96.1. FM as I see it airs Saturday mornings 10 a.m. to 11 a.m. But you can listen to it whenever you want using the Odyssey app. You're the best. I appreciate this. I'll talk to you soon. Oh, that's having to take care. Always great to catch up with Howard. I wanted to mention that after we recorded the interview with Howard, there was the news of another letter from Snyder's attorney

back to Congress. But it really didn't change materially. conversation that Howard and I had. All right, we're done for the day. Thanks to Howard. Thanks to Denny McCarthy, who was on with us. I will be back tomorrow with Tommy.