The Kevin Sheehan Show - McLaurin To Miss Mini-Camp

Episode Date: June 13, 2022

Kevin and Ben Standig/The Athletic today on the reports that Terry McLaurin and the team are far apart on a new contract and that he'll sit out mandatory mini-camp. Also, more on Jack Del Rio and the NBA Finals with Ben. Kevin finished up with a recommendation on how Ron Rivera should handle tomorrow's mini-camp press conference.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Cheyenne Show. Here's Kevin. If you miss Jay Gruden with me over the weekend, I did a Saturday podcast. Had Jay on the show. Jay was excellent.

Go back and listen to Saturday's show. Just a lot of different stuff. I mean, we ended up weaving through multiple topics throughout that conversation. He weighed in a little bit on Terry McLorn and how much. much time he needs with Carson Wentz and lots of other issues as well as, you know, commenting on, you know, the situation that Ron Rivera is in and having to reprimand a coach. And if he's ever been in a similar situation, which brought up a conversation about DJ Sweringer, which was an interesting one. So that was from the weekend. Go back and listen to that. Don't

forget to rate us and review us, especially on Apple and Spotify, my good friend Ben Standing here on this Monday, June 13th, joining us at the top of the show. Ben, of course, writes for the athletics, subscribe to that. He's got his own podcast, Standing Room Only. You can find that wherever you get a podcast, and you can follow him on Twitter at Ben Standing. So let's rip through several of the topics of the last few days. I wait in on Saturday show on Del Rio. I've got a little bit more and we can discuss it together. But I want to start with, you know, the report that I think Nikki had over the weekend, and I know you had some knowledge on this as well, and that is that Terry McCorn and the team are far apart in their contract negotiations. And with mini camps starting tomorrow

and lasting through Thursday, it appears unlikely, at least according to Nikki, that McLaren will post for the start of minicamp. This is mandatory. Most of you know that. OTA is voluntary. Mini-camp mandatory. You can get fined for missing mandatory minicamp. But unlike training camp, the team does have the ultimate option of waiving those fines for minicamp. So let's start there. Terry McClure, what do you know, what are you guessing will happen? Yeah, I mean, my sense all along has been that this thing has not been going anywhere, which isn't to say it won't ultimately get done at the finish line.

As we know, John Allen's deal out here didn't get signed until 10 seconds, basically, before the start of training camp. But this feels a little more extra, something going on by nature of the fact that McCorn skipped all the OTAs. And, yeah, my sense is he's not going to show up this week, barring the unforeseen. it is notable. Now, players are subject to fines of upwards of like $91,000 if they skip all three days.

There's a breakdown for each individual day. The team does not have to give him that fine, and whether they do or they not, or they don't, he's clearly making a gesture to say, hey, this is not going the way I think it needs to go. And one thing we've talked about throughout all this, there are standard contract negotiations, and then they're the ones where clearly one side has more leverage than the other. And you can certainly say on some level, Washington has certain leverage, including the franchise tag, but from a lot of other levels, including just simple good old perception at PR, the McCorren side has a lot more.

And, you know, it looks like right now they're exercising that and kind of moving in that direction. Why isn't it going well? What do you know about why they're far apart in contract negotiations? Let me begin with this, actually. I mean, I think that the answer to this is yes, but they are negotiating, right? Or was it, you know, something where it started and because they were so far apart, there isn't any discussion going on right now? What are you hearing on that front?

What I heard is, I mean, there have been conversations. there have been talks, but nothing that's necessarily being fruitful. I can't really get into like too, too much about what is happening, but

the, you know, I guess the general sense that I kind of have is, or like I could say, maybe what I kind of wonder is, it doesn't make a lot, everybody's wondering what is taking it to long, right? I don't blame Washington at all for the fact that they didn't get this

done on March 10th and then the market exploded. I think that's kind of over Monday morning quarterbacking by people on the outside who think they want to blame the commanders for everything. I'm not doing that. I've talked to people around the league who don't do that. I had Joel Corey on my podcast. He's not doing that. So, yeah, so I'm not dinging them for that aspect of waiting.

But that said, why are they still waiting now? The market has said itself to some degree from the Tyree killed, you know, that Devante Adams of the world. And then, of course, A.J. Brown, who's a direct comparison from McCorn as another member of the 2019 draft class. These are the receivers that are getting a little extra attention right now for these extensions. That's where Debo Samuel and D.K. Metcalf are also in that same boat. And there's a question of like what's happening here. Why is this taking it so long? We've talked a lot about Duran Payne's situation. And, you know, I've reported, obviously, that he's not expected to get an extension, and we don't have to get into that.

folks you want to. But my point would be if Washington actually wants to give him an extension, they've got to deal with McCorn first. That's the number one priority here. So you can't even get to the other thing you might want to get to until you deal with McCorn. So there's reasons to be to move on this and yet they're not. And that, to me, makes me kind of wonder, is this about the commander? Similar to like the way Joel Corey was telling me that he didn't see Terry McCorn

as a player getting north of $20 million annually when the season ended. but the market shifted under Washington's feet, and are they not shifting along with it? I don't know that definitively, but that to me kind of feels like where we may be. I mean, perhaps McCorincide is asking for the stars in the moon, and that's the burden, but I don't know if I'm getting that vibe out of the situation here. So, you know, I don't know if I really know that they're either how far apart they are, But there's obviously some issue here. And again, though, deadlines create deals,

and we are way away from the sort of artificial deadline of the starter training camp. But, you know, there's reasons to get this thing done now, including, like, having Terry McCorn in camp to work with your new quarterback, right? We heard, what did we hear over the last couple months that Rivera and Del Rio both saying that they thought the defense took a step back last year,

in part because guys missed OTAs, well, now you're creating a situation in which your best player is missing all of this, including now, looks like training at a minicamp because of this contract. So it is curious to me why they're not motivating quicker here, but I think to me it probably reads that there's a difference of opinion. I mean, obviously is a difference of opinion on the deal, but I feel like there's a difference of opinion based on the world having moved and maybe the team perhaps not moving as quickly or as expectively based on how the market has changed.

Yeah, I mean, you know, what you said, I agree with with respect to, you know, you can't really blame them for not immediately when the season was over or in January or February or March, you know, getting a deal done before all of these deals started to get done to sort of predict the market and jump the market. I don't hold that against them, but the market has spoken on a lot of the top tier guys. And so now it seems to me, and I'm wondering if you agree, you know, I don't know if it's more Terry asking for, you know, Devante Adams to re-kill, you know, A.J. Brown kind of money or the team wanting to offer maybe what they would have back in February, you know, kind of what Christian Kirk, you know, got in free agency somewhere around 8.5. $18 million a year or whatever.

But the bottom line is that it would appear as if there's a big difference. And the problem now is from the team standpoint, and I agree with you, I think there's leverage on both ends. Look, Terry can't go into a year making $2.8 million and putting generational wealth on the line with what could be in this game, an injury that prevents him from earning that kind of He's got to get it now. He's in one of those unique positions where he wasn't a first round pick, but he's proven to be a really, really good player.

And so there's incentive for him to get a long-term deal where he signs for 50, 60 million guaranteed, whatever it would be. And from the team standpoint, like you said, I mean, culture change. This guy fits the whole culture change kind of environment they want. And he's a really good player. But what I'm getting at is if he's looking for, the Devante Adams to re-kill, let's take it down a notch, what Cooper Cup just got or what AJ Brown got. The team then has to say to him, yeah, you're not them. And they would have never

had to do that a few months ago. But, you know, again, I'm not saying that they should have done a deal and anticipated the market with respect to receivers in this offseason. But therein lies maybe another part of the problem. It's not just the money difference, but the team has to say, Yeah, we don't see you in that category of number one wide receivers, which, by the way, I don't either. I think Terry McLaurin's really good, but I think there are nine or ten guys that are better. And all of the people that are going to shout back and say, well, he hasn't had a quarterback. All of that's true. And I'm not going to sit here and compare stats.

But there's no way that I'm taking him in front if I have a choice of Adams, Hill, Hopkins, Cup, Diggs, Chase, Jefferson, you know, A.J. Brown. I think A.J. Brown's a better player. You know, I think Keenan Allen is potentially a better player. So they have to, they're in this position, Ben, where by whatever they're saying no to, or whatever the difference is, they're also saying, yeah, we don't see you in that light. Right, right. And then look, and this is, you know, the tricky balance, anybody who's ever gone through a contract negotiation,

and it's always a bit of a tricky balance, and this is even, you know, I think it's always often sort of overlooked and underrated when it comes to these players if they're having to do it in broad daylight, right? And this is where public feelings gets hurt, and you're dealing with egos and all these kinds of things. But this is the question is,

what is the comparison for Terry McCorn? Like, I'm with you. Like, it's hard to say that he is, if we're stacking up all the receivers, that he compared straight up with a lot of the guys that you discussed. But at the same point, I don't know, right?

The argument could be, look at the quarterback he's had to play with, and look what he's actually been able to do. Tyree Kills played with Patrick Mahomes. Devonte Adams has played with Aaron Rogers. Put Terry McCorn in those spots and let me see what he looks like. He hasn't had any receiver with any consistency playing opposite him. He has largely played through injuries in ways of some other guys haven't. He's also a guy that the coaches point to and say to the other players emulate him.

He's all faced with a franchise, a locker room leader. So there's a lot of benefits to go on his side, but you know, in the base level of we're just saying straight up, you know, we're playing a game of football, who, what receivers do you want? He's probably not in that definitive tier, but this is where they've got to figure out what is the appropriate comparison. And, you know, it's also, like if you look at the top, I want to say top six average annual salaries for the receivers. Like there's a gap between number six. So I want to say is, I want to say it's like Stefan Digg, around 24 million annually. And then number seven is DJ Moore in Carolina.

Anyway, there you go. At 20. So there's a gap there. And, you know, one side is saying, hey, we think the comparison is more to a DJ more than it is to Stefan Diggs and those guys at the top of the group. You know, that's some legitimate money. So, you know, we'll see. By the way, like, you know, AJ Brown. You know, there's only, I want to say, three receivers.

There's eight receivers who signed new deals for over $20 million for at least $20 million annual average salary. But I think there's only three that signed with fully guarantees over $43 million, A.J. Brown being one of them. And, you know, again, if you're going to Perry McCorren's side, you're going to point to that and say, you know, hey, you know, our guy has more receptions since he's played. the league. He's played in more games. He takes on more of these burdens, as we discussed. And, you know,

AJ Brown had to get a new deal because he got traded. If you play, you know, don't make us force out want to trade to get Terry paid, you know, right? Isn't it how all of us, whoever have a job during that situation of in order to get the raise you probably want,

you may have to leave the company that you'd rather stay at because that's the sort of the nature of how these things tend to work at times? I know I'm a bit of an extreme because I can't compare NFL players to rank in file nine to fivers. But anyway, I'm just saying that like if some team out there was traded for McCorn, they would do it knowing they're going to be paying him what AJ Brown just got, basically. And Washington is, you know, it would appear it's not willing to go there, assuming that McCorn side has even saying that's definitively what they want.

But I would imagine they're more likely saying that's what they want or they're not. Yeah, I also just want to point out just so everybody's, because this morning we did this topic on radio and there was a lot of pushback on, you know, the quarterbacks with the receivers at the top. I mean, some of these receivers that had big years last year, like DJ Moore had a better year than Terry McLorn, you know, with a terrible quarterback situation too. I mean, he caught 16 more balls during the course of the season. Deontay Johnson with, you know, 97-year-old Ben Rathesberger, a quarterback, literally caught 30 more passes during the season in one less game than Terry McClearn did. The guy that had the really good year, Amon Ross St. Brown in Detroit with Jared Gough caught 13 more passes. I mean, there's some guys out there that had better years with kind of equivalent quarterback situations.

but I agree that his numbers would be a lot better with a better quarterback situation. I just am going by the eye test and watching a lot of football. Those are the guys that I would take in front, and that's not even my complete list, whatever. Like we're not even talking about guys that were rookies last year that we're not sure about who could blow up this year, guys like Devante Smith and this year's class. But anyway, netting it out. Actually, two more on Terry McLaren. One, do you have any idea who on Washington's end?

Is it Rob Rogers or is it Herney or Mayhew with Rob Rogers that ends up being the point people or person in a contract negotiation with a player's agent? Yeah, I mean, from my understanding, Rob Rogers is generally the person who is the point of contact. Obviously, you know, from Rivera and the other executives are involved to a degree. but Rob Rogers is generally considered to be the main person that you're going to be dealing with if you're an agent or an outside party negotiating a contract. All right, and my last question is just, so what's your prediction on this? Because I still think there will be a deal done between the DJ Moore deal and the Stefan Diggs deal. You know, call it $22 million.

Call it four to, you know, four-ish years for $50. to 60 guaranteed somewhere in that neighborhood. I think it gets done by the beginning of training camp. What do you think? Yeah, I mean, I just think it just makes too much sense. This is more of a logic to the thought than anything else at this point. Now that we're here, where McCorn is going to skip. But, yeah, I mean, I think from a logic perspective, this is going to get done.

There's too many reasons to not. And, you know, they have the room, you know, to a degree. I mean, it's getting more crowded, having taken on. the Carson-Wenst deal and knowing you've got these defensive linemen you're going to have to pay at some point. I think the thing that I don't quite get is you shouldn't like, look, money is money and the salary cap is a real thing and you shouldn't, you know, make short-sighted irrational decisions based on sort of what's happening on the ground, i.e., they are in need of a major PR win on any front right now, right? As we all, as we know, and this seems like an easy

one to do, sign Terry McCorn, get it done. And that's what's going to be interesting to me. is whenever this thing does get done, let's assume that it is. If the numbers are just in line with what we're all assuming right now, then it will be to me a bit of a loss that they haven't gotten this done because not only will he have not been on the field working out with his teammates, including his new quarterback, but, you know, you won't have gained all the positives you could get out of this from a PR perspective by getting this done.

Like if he's assuming that nothing happens this week, and we go through, you know, training camp is not, not until six weeks away, right? So that's going to be all that time with the negativity in the air of Terry McCorn, not having signed the uncertainty of that. And for what if you're just going to end up in the same spot anyway? So, you know, it feels to me that like this is where, and look, I'm not in that negotiating room. I can't even balance my own bank account. So, you know, I'm not that guy, but to discuss high finances, but it doesn't seem like it's that complicated of his deal. I thought John Allen last year was more complicated because it wasn't just about him.

You had these other defensive linemen coming behind him, and maybe you did have to make a decision as to what you were going to do with whom. Here, I don't understand what the decision is. He's the guy. There is nobody else, really. I mean, I know they just drafted a receiver in the first round, but McCorn represents more than just that. So assuming you want to keep him, what are we doing here? It doesn't seem like it can be that complicated. Again, to be fair, though, I guess. Both D.K. Medcalf and D.B. Samuel are also on the outside waiting for new deals. And AJ Brown probably only got his because he got traded. So, you know, it's not just a Washington thing, I guess. But Washington has got a unique burden in ways Seattle and San Francisco don't.

And I think that's got to be factored. At least it would be for me if I'm them making these decisions. Well, I mean, what you're saying makes total sense. Like, if we're quibbling over, you know, 21 and a half and 22 and a half a year just to make it simple and neat for people to understand without getting into guaranteed and, you know, length of deal, et cetera, then it's stupid not to get it done now for football reasons, let alone PR reasons. But what you may have, you may be answering the question as to why they're far apart. And the answer might be that Terry McClorn and his agent, look, you know, in a lot of these situations, and I've learned this over the years.

The player can be the greatest guy in the world and have the best relationship with the coaching staff and the coaches and even the front office. But sometimes the agent and the people around the agent are just difficult. And they're like, don't worry about it. We're going to handle it. And the player just relies on them to handle it instead of stepping in and saying, look, if we're talking about the difference between a million bucks,

let's split the difference. Let's get it done. But maybe they are looking for Tarek Hill, Devante Adams money. And there's just no way the team is looking at, you know, if we're talking about negotiating between the Stefan Diggs $24 million and the DJ Moore just call it $20.5 million, that should get done quickly. I mean, let's settle on 22 and a half. Let's get it done. Terry McClorn, part of the culture change, great player, number one receiver, and let's get him working with Carson Wentz. But, you know, maybe the answer to this in terms of why it hasn't gotten done and why this aside.

are far apart, is that Terry's people are saying, no, no, no, no. He is at that category. And by the way, over the next few years, we're not going to be looking at a guy that's making the 15th best deal in the league. We're signing him to something in that A.J. Brown plus territory of $25 million a year plus. And it'll look like a great deal two years from now when everybody else signs long-term deals.

And by the way, Justin Jefferson breaks the bank. And Jamar Chase does the same thing over the next couple of years. And maybe the team's just saying, that's just too much. I mean, we're willing to pay him more than we were thinking about paying him in March. That's for sure because the market's changed. But we're not slotting him as a top four, top five, you know, receiver right now. And so to me, that would be a reason as to why it's not close. Is the player and his agent are asking for far too much?

I doubt that because the team, and we've read these reports and you've discussed this, they have kind of been planning on handling this contract extension all throughout the off season. I doubt that the teams like coming in with some sort of low ball offer. You know, Bruce Allen used to do that all the time. I don't think that's happening. Remember, they offered Cooper Cup, all right, before their first season here. They offered Cooper Cup more than $20 million per year, and that was not Cooper Cup, Amari Cooper, excuse me. They reportedly offered Amari Cooper and a, you know, more than what Dallas ended up paying him, which was $20 million a year for five years.

So they offered him more than $20 million Cooper two years ago. So I doubt they're super low-balling. McLaren. Well, I would just say, and again, you know, I don't want to pretend like, you know, you can't know everything at all time. If you made me pick which side is more off, I would probably guess the team. But I don't know definitively. But just looking at what they do and just sort of the nature of everything and the fact

that we're not just dealing with McLaurin, but this entire offseason of nothing happening since the Wendz trade and, you know, Rivera saying that they had a completely changed things around when they made the Wins trade taking on that contract, which kind of makes no sense when you were trying to get Russell Wilson in the first place and all that. So I don't know. To me, if I had to get, if I had to pick a side to say which side is more off, I would say the team. But again, that's, you know.

So tell me how far off you think they are. They offered Amari Cooper more than $20 million a year two years ago. Did they think that they were going to get Terry McLaurin for less. than that? Well, I don't know what their, like I said, I don't know what their motivations are right now. You know, we keep talking about Dan Snyder's money. Is that a factor here? You know, when you sign a guy that guaranteed money with the funding rule, you do have to put aside the money that you're fully guaranteeing. And I don't know, is that a factor? I'm not saying it is, but that's something, you know, what we've all discussed on some level. You know, look, there's also the franchise tag. I know,

nobody here wants to hear this. If they give him the franchise tag next year, the current estimates are just shy of $20 million for his 20-23 salary, which would be less than the $21, $22, $23 million that would maybe be viewed as a compromise between the higher end and sort of

to DJ Moore level. And then even with even if you did the second tag at 120%, that would get you around $24 million, which is still just about on par with what we're talking about here anyway. So, you know,

it's possible. They're looking at that and saying, we've got Terry on the books right now for 2.8 million this year. We can do the franchise tag the next two years. They're absolutely ramifications for doing that, i.e. pissing off the player and, you know, what does that do for the locker room and things like that? But purely from a cap perspective, it arguably makes some sense to consider that. So maybe that's a factor here. But, and you know, as we always say, when we're talking about these annual average salaries that are shown on. I know. Spot-rack. numbers are, right? Those are, you know, funny money kind of numbers to a degree. But if you just

using that as a guy, there is a gap between the top six and number seven and DJ Moore. So if Washington's pointing more to the bottom of that group, you know, towards the DJ Moore side of it and the team is pointing the, as a player, it's pointing the other way, you know, that is a gap that could be explainable without it being either side looking like completely like a bad guy because there is a bit of a gap there. Yeah, the only problem with the strategy of, well, we'll just pay them $2.8 million this year and then franchise them for the next two years. You've already pointed out one of the issues, which is, you know, now you're dealing with an unhappy player. And they don't want that with one of the players that they're the happiest with over the last couple of years.

Secondly, you know, is Terry going to play on $2.8 million or is he going to hold out? Is he going to take the fines? Is he going to say, is he then going to try to force a trade? I mean, you know, there's benefit for both sides to get this deal done. Even if Terry, like somebody suggested to me recently, there's a chance he doesn't want to play here, you know, and that he really is kind of working his way into a just trade me situation that he wants out of here. There's, there's, that's hard right now for him at $2.8 million, you know, under contract for next year. And, you know, there are a lot, there are teams that certainly would be interested in Terry McCorn,

but I don't know how much of a better deal he would get with another team versus this one. I don't know. I just think that there's incentive for both to get a deal done, and that's why it will get done. Sounds like to me you believe the divide right now is more team-driven. I don't know the answer to it, but I would lean if I had to wager that it's more that the place. player and his agent or his agents just asking for a number that's, you know, in that more recent AJ Brown plus territory. And the team's like, no, that's way too high. Ultimately, I think it'll come between the DJ Moore and the Diggs deal and that Terry McCorn should sign it and should,

you know, guarantee himself $50 plus million and, you know, without having to worry about getting injured and having a career ended after making $2.79 million this year. You know, so anyway, yeah. I'll just say this, and we can just sort of move and move off of McCorn, but part of the issue here, and look, I'm not trying to blame the commanders every time there's an issue that it's their fault. I don't do that, in fact. But, you know, they are not, have not shown to be the most forward-thinking bunch.

No, true. And to that end, like I said, you still have the Duran Payne thing hanging around here. I haven't heard that he will be skipping this. He obviously showed up for the majority of OTAs. He missed a couple days here and there, and as I reported, he was skipping team drills over the fact that he is unhappy with his contract situation. We'll see how that gets unfolded. But, like, if you're telling me that the team wants to keep him, right?

And Ron Rivera is claiming that there's no issue. Well, how are you resolving this while the McCorn thing is still hanging out there? Like, there should be a little more urgency to figure something out. And then you also have to factor in, you know, technically, you know, Montess wet could get an extension. Otherwise, you'll be in the boat the pains in for next year, which is probably what's going to happen. And then you have Chase Young after that, you know, do they, what is their plan for all of these things? Plus the Carson went deal that that's there. And how do you kind of handle that, moving money back or not and things like that?

So, like, that to me is where it's just like if I'm going to like, if forced to sort of, pick aside where I'm going to give benefit of the doubt. It's just harder for me to give it to Washington because I just haven't seen from the outside their vision that makes me think they kind of have a real look here at what they need to do to get all these

things done. And that's where it's like become a little more complicated for me with the McCorrent thing. All right. I do want to get to some NBA conversation with Ben. Ben's one of the few people that I love talking NBA with because he covered the league. He covered the Wizards and we'll get to Steph Curry's performance.

in a moment, but I would be remissed if I didn't ask you just kind of on the Jack Del Rio situation, not to go through. I did a lot on the podcast on Saturday, but what's next in the Jack Del Rio situation? What are we waiting for here? What are we waiting to learn, if anything? I think the big question a lot of people have is what is the deal with the players and how does this affect the locker room? You know, it's interesting that we really haven't heard anything from the players in the two years that Revere, that's been here, even though he's been politically, he's been active, obviously, talking politics on Twitter this entire time. That's right.

This is just the latest one that blew up because of what he specifically said, calling, obviously, the January 6th event, a quote duff-up and making the comparison to the riots that followed the George Floyd murder and things like that. It's interesting that we just haven't heard anything, though. And the players, you know, from what I gather, and I'm not. You know, we're not in the locker room yet. You know, that's not a thing. And all these things are kind of happening.

I don't know exactly what everybody thinks, but my sense is that over time, and recently as well, is players like Jack Del Rio that, you know, John Allen made the comment the other day that, you know, he can kind of, you know, kind of put his head in the sand, ignore what anybody is saying, just focus on what the job that the person is doing here, right, to get something done.

And, you know, I think that's something to consider until players, we hear from players in any, you know, directly on the record or, you know, more off the record, you know, we can't have to assume that there's going to be some major locker room issue over this. I think that said, you know, I've also talked to people who kind of said, look, you know, they understand attitudes that exist around the league. Some of them are in line with things that Del Rio said, and, you know, you just have to move forward. in this environment and just do the best you can and not worry about these things. So I think that's a question that a lot of people have,

and I think it's a bit much to assume that this is going to blow things up in the locker room. But in terms of this week, I think it will be interesting to see what, if anything, you know, what Rivera says about it? I don't think we'll talk to Del Rio this week unless they make him come out or something. But, you know, what is Rivera saying? Obviously, the players are going to get asked about this. Do any of them actually say anything about this? Again, to this day, they haven't.

And I think it's notable, and therefore we can't just assume this is going to become a locker and issue. Yeah, you know, you said a lot in your answer there. And, you know, I was saving some of this for the final segment of the podcast today, which I am going to save one part of this for the final segment of the podcast, and that is when you were just referring to the fact that Ron Rivera is going to address the media and the players are going to be asked questions about the Del Rio situation as well. I'm sure Rivera at this point would welcome all Terry McLaurin-related questions rather than face the questions that will come about Jack Del Rio and how the team handled it.

But I put together just some thoughts on what I think they should do. I think he should read a statement and then not answer any questions about it. But I kind of sketched out what that statement should be and what it should include. and I'll get to that in the final segment of the podcast. But what you said at the beginning of your last answer here about sort of what's next in the Jack Del Rio situation, it is about what the players think. And you're right, Ben. I mean, for two years, Jack Del Rio's been pretty outspoken on Twitter about what he believes,

you know, with respect to political issues and the social issues of the day. and there's this assumption from many that his thoughts and his views would be at odds with the locker room. And I don't know that they are. I don't think anybody does. What we do know is nobody publicly has come out either saying something or tweeting something or responding to a jack tweet that would indicate that the players have a major problem with. Jack and I've heard some of the same things you've heard, which is that he's pretty well respected in that building by his players. You know, Ed Reed was kind of calling for the players

to, you know, hit back at Jack a little bit. Many people have been, you know, and I think everybody is jumping to this conclusion that the players are like, whoa, this guy's a whack job, or whoa, this guy is this or that. We don't have any evidence at this point. that that's what they think and that's how they feel. In fact, the evidence out there prior to last week would indicate that nobody seems to have had a problem with Jack being super expressive of his political views and views of the social issues of the day on Twitter. Now, he's off Twitter now, and I think that's the best move. I have no idea if the team forced him off Twitter or not.

he did apparently retweet something about Elon Musk on Saturday, and then immediately he shut down his Twitter account. I think that's the best course of action for somebody like him. I think getting into late-night Twitter arguments with people, you know, that have like 15 followers should be beneath the defensive coordinator of an NFL team. Also, let's not forget, you know, Jack's gotten a little bit confused on Twitter a few times. He congratulated Wes Unseld Jr. recently on Wes's a new job when Wes got hired over a year ago. So maybe he's not as good on Twitter as he thinks he is. But yeah, you're right.

The player's reaction to this will be an important storyline to pay attention to. As will, you know, just the storyline of whether or not, and I believe this is true, I think they really shut, you know, Jack down. I think this was, you know, a straightforward conversation between Ron and Jack that said, you can do this, but you're going to have to do this on your own dime. You're not doing it on our dime anymore. You're not putting us and casting us in a controversial light. I don't care what you think. I don't have any problem with you expressing your views or I don't have any issue with your opinions. You're entitled to them. We can debate them, you know, privately all we want, but this is not going to be

done publicly anymore. And if it does, we're going to look to fire you with cause, you know, and by the way, that might be a tough thing to prove. And by the way, I think the statement, you know, behind that $100,000 fine the other day, as I said on Saturday, was just too wordy, you know, and too descriptive and definitive on Ron Rivera and the team's opinions. You know, I would have made it much shorter, less descriptive. Again, doesn't matter what you think politically, but it should matter to them to kind of stay medium. You know, don't be so black and white.

Keep it gray. Tick off the fewest people imaginable. You know, their statement may have made many people happy, but it also made many people unhappy. They weren't going to please everybody with that overly descriptive and definitive statement, which included their views of January 6th and how they differed from Jack's views.

I would have definitely been involved in writing something a lot less descriptive. But whatever, like I said on Saturday, I think Jack's on a short leash. And for those of you that worried, you know, would they do anything? Well, they did. And I think, you know, the response was a legitimate one. And now we'll just sit back and wait and see on whether or not, you know, Jack can help himself and keep himself focused on his job in a private organization, which is to not be outwardly controversial as a coordinator.

but to coaches team up and, you know, make them a lot better than they've been. But anyway, you got anything else on this? Because I want to talk some NBA with you. No, I mean, you know, I do think that's a reasonable thing. Can I just sort of say that, like, so I struggled. I had to write a story for the athletic. It'll be online, presumably by the time most of you hear this. And I was really kind of struggling, like, to what to get into what I wrote about,

what I heard about Perry McCorn situation on Sunday, and then touched under on Parenthood. and I spoke to, as I mentioned earlier, Joel Corey, about the various cap situations and all that. And then, of course, I had to mention the Del Rio stuff a little bit. And my larger point at the top of the story was, you know, this is the easy time of year. This is when the feel-good stories are out. This is when you, this is spring training.

This is when you, everything is optimistic, and you focus on things like Carson Went is doing a great job learning the system. And what it Albert Breer right the other day that, you know, that Garab-Rob-Rob-Rav-A-Rour can see how great of a leader, and wins will be based on playing golf, right? And we're all tweeting by John Dodson's making plays. And like, this is the type of year where this is that, where these stories come out, right? If you go across, look at all my colleagues at the athletic, the stories they have

or will write over their own camp will be these types of feel-good things. And none of that matters here right now because of everything it goes on here. It isn't just the Del Rio thing. I mean, at least McLaurin and Payne or sort of garden variety, you know, margin of error stuff, like we're used to hold out or whatever. but even that's a distraction and now you have this Del Rio stuff and of course

it's not just the Del Rio it's Del Rio on top of 27 other things that we know and that's why this place is just incredibly frustrating for all involved because they can't just get out of their own way and if Ron Rivera says

something about you know we're not trying to live in the past or trying to move forward it's like dude like okay but I mean stop saying that and actually you know it's when it's not happening

for it is happening in real time right now, things that are on your watch and whether it's not going to his fault, but just these are the things that are happening, and you can't even just focus on Damon Davis's development in his second year and, you know, how does Fadari and Mattis look, and Sam Cosmy going to be the best offensive lineman or whatever. So it really, you know, the fact we've talked about this stuff over and over and over again, I know as a writer,

it just makes me almost know to discuss the other things because if they feel so insignificant, and this is the time of the year when these things should be front and center, we'll get to the nitty, gritty stuff in camp, and as the season unfolds, but right now this should just be pure upside, pure hope of what could happen. No, you're right. I mean, it's never ending. It's always something else, and so much of it, you know,

ends up being self-inflicted like last week, and I think that's really what Ron has to focus on. You know, he wanted us to stop rehab. the past and, you know, on 2-22 be focused on, you know, the future. There's only so much he can control, you know, when it comes to investigations and congressional inquiries into the past and people like Jason Friedman coming out and making these allegations. And he can't do anything about that. That all happened before he got here. But he's got to be focused on making sure that any of the controversy or any of the negativity around this organization moving forward is not self-inflicted.

And last week, it was self-inflicted. And they've got to put a stop to that once and for all. I do have something that I want to get to in the final segment, and that is kind of some thoughts on how they should handle this week from a PR standpoint, with Ron in particular, doing the talking. for the organization. I'll get to that in the final segment of the show. But Ben's going to stick around, and we're going to talk some NBA and Steph Curry next,

right after these words from a few of our sponsors. Curry now has Williams on him, looking to unload it. Flips it up. Shot is good. Steph Curry dancing, prancing, and puts it in, and the Warriors up by three. Game five tonight, out in San Francisco of the NBA finals after Golden State evened up the series Friday night with a 107 to 97 win.

Ben, you know, covered the NBA and the Wizards forever and is watching like I am these NBA finals. I said on Saturday's podcast that the Steph Curry performance isn't the greatest performance in NBA finals. You know, people get carried away with recency bias. We talk about that all the time. but it was memorable. It's on a short list, and I don't know what a short list would be defined as, you know, from a quantitative standpoint, but let's just say it's, you know, it could be in a top 10 list of the greatest NBA finals,

individual performances of all time. What made it so impressive for me, and then I want you to respond is, A, you know, little guy, most of the greatest performances have been by bigger players, not, you know, guards or point guards, too, they were really, really up against it. Boston is suffocating defensively. Three, the building they were in, four, he was hobbled. Five, you know, I thought Clay hit some big shots, and I think Wiggins has played well here in spurts, but for the most part, if he didn't play in that game, they lose by 30. I mean, that's how much better Boston is without Curry in the lineup, but instead, um,

he literally carried them on his back to an amazing performance. What did you think? of Friday night, and you're an NBA historian kind of guy. You remember a lot of these great games. Where did it stack up for you? I mean, I think for him specifically, it's got to be the best game of his career. I mean, I'm not counting some games where he scored a lot more points or things like that, but you know, factoring in the NBA finals, the road, you know, they're down two to one. And like you said, this Golden State team kind of reminds me of that Iverson team that made the final, or it was like the one guy was carrying the burden and everybody else was sort of role-player-y, like Clay Thompson's obviously not, the Clay Thompson we've seen hit the pre-injury,

and, you know, Andrew Wiggins had a really good game the other night, but, you know, he's a role player, and if Steph Curry, the burden on him is extraordinary, but like you said, typically when it's, when it comes down to the one guy, it's a bigger player who is physically harder to dominate defensively, and Steph Curry, based on his size, it should be. a little bit more, a little bit easier to deal with. But of course, his movement, his intelligence, the shooting range, his ability to, if you press him on the shot, he can drive and make these unbelievable layups.

And, you know, he's not, I also think what's so underrated with Golden State, it's not just everything I just said. It's the attitude that he brings to the table. like I think his the way he plays I think motivates his teammates he's clearly the rare superstar who isn't just focused on what he needs to do

he's focused on what they need to do and you can see that I think the way the team plays and rallies around him so I thought it was off the charts now I do think the the regency bias really started to kick in like you won't find a bigger Steph Curry backer than me historically

and even I'm like hold Hold on. Hold on. This is not a better performance than Magic Johnson. We're not in Magic Johnson game six to the 80 finals. We're not going to start saying if Curry wins the finals and series MVP, he's now the greatest point guard of all time. No, we're not doing that. But I understand why people are excited for it. I do think this was a game that because of the sort of the one-on-one nature of it that he had that ultimate kind of a heat check, was doing it, not on his own, but kind of on his own, that that's the thing that sort of resonates to the average fan easier than the subtle things that he has done historically that people don't always pick up on beyond just that he makes three-pointers

from all over the place. And, you know, I do think from an all-time, you know, where did he rank among all-time players list? I think this is a really fascinating one. I tweeted the other day that it's time we start discussing is he among the top 10 or 12, and people started yelling at me, like, you're late, we're already doing this. people, I promise you, you are not doing this on any real way.

This is like when people say so interested to make an all-f our team, but then they don't say who gets kicked out. Because if you want to say Steph Curry is one of the ten best players of all time, here are the people you're kicking out. Somebody from the group of Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan, Shaquillo, Neil, Larry Bird. And if you want to have that conversation, I'm down to have it, but you haven't had it. Get out of here. No chance anybody's having it.

Stephen A. Smith would explode for a month when this conversation starts. to happen. We're not there. You haven't been listening to the podcast recently. Tommy and I, we had that conversation. And there are certain things I keep, you know, on a list of just things to remind myself what I said when I said it. Because I don't always remember exactly what I said when I said it. But I had put together in a, I don't know, a couple of years ago, my all-time top 10. and it was Michael Magic,

wilt LeBron, Russell, Kareem, Larry, Kobe, Elijah Wan and Shaq were my top 10. And we talked about this because Tommy, of course, doesn't think Curry's anywhere near a top 10 conversation, and, you know, he's doing his thing where,

you know, he says he just shoots it. By the way, I just want to make sure everybody understands if you watch this game the other night against just a smothering defense that was hedging, doubling on every pick and roll. Even if they weren't using screens, they were coming at them from everywhere.

And he still got 43 on 14 of 26. And would have had, he had 10 rebounds in the game. He only had four assists. He should have had more assists, but guys couldn't make open shots when he gave it up in the right spot. But to your point, like I said, look, I think if he wins these finals and he gets, you know, another title, He's going to start pushing in the sport where titles matter more than any other sport.

He's going to start pushing the top 10. And I conceded, who am I taking out? Well, I said, I'm going to take Shaq out. And as much as I am the biggest Elijah Juan fan, and I am, and I think over the years, I don't think people understand his greatness. And I think, you know, in many ways, you know, when I see him ranked 14th or 15th, I'm like, that is just way, way too low. But I'd be willing to move Curry up in front of those kinds of players, including Duncan, who I had ahead of him in the next group of players.

I think I would if he were to carry this Warriors team in this series to a title and have, let's just say, another 40-point game or another two outstanding performances to win this series. Yeah, we've had that conversation, and I am putting him into the. top 10 if he's able to do that, especially after Friday night. Because I said it's going to take a heroic finals. They're going to have to win the finals. He's going to have to be the definitive MVP, which he hasn't been before in the finals, although I think he should have been the year Igadala won it. I still can't figure out how Igadala won the MVP that year.

But yeah, it's not easy. It's not easy to start taking guys out. I agree with you. But to your point, it's the conversation you have to. have before you just say, oh, yeah, he's a top 10 player. Really? We'll start adding up the players and tell me who you're going to put them in front of. It's hard. Think of it this way. When the playoffs started, if we had had a poll among every NBA fan, who's the better player for their career, Kevin Durant or Steph Curry, Kevin Durant is winning

that 75-25. Regardless of what I think, he's winning that. And now we're just throwing, we're just saying Kevin Durand because the combination of the Nets flame out in these playoffs and what Curry is doing, now we're just saying Curry is the better player in a matter of two months, which is, I'm okay with saying that. I'm just also saying that that needs to be acknowledged that that's the kind of flip we're

talking about. And my, and just on the Duncan thing, not that go overly crazy here, the reason why for me, Tim Duncan is much higher on the list than he would be for you and probably a lot of others is the same reason why I think Curry has been underappreciated. Because we tend to think of these lists from the

perspective of, like I need one guy for one game and who's this, that, and the other. But look at the culture that they have created with these teams. The Spurs for the entirety of Tim Duncan's career were always great, always great. And, you know, they won titles. They almost never had issues, the way that LeBron's team always have issues, the way other teams have issues. There's drama surrounding a lot of players. Nothing with Tim Duncan.

And Steph Curry largely the same. The only reason the Warriors dipped the last couple of years was because obviously, Thompson got hurt and Draymond's kind of lost his fastball and yet here they are. I mean, they don't even have the guy they the benefit from them stinking was getting the number two pick in the draft

and they put James Weigman, that guy's not even playing. Not even playing. And they're and they are where they are. So I think from the culture aspect of these things get lost in these conversations. But yeah, I mean that's the larger point is if you just want to put Curry in your top 10

that you've got to tell me who you're taking out and be real. Don't just live in the moment. Be honest with whatever, with this whole conversation about where it all fits because it's not easy. Yeah, I'm okay to take out Shaq. He's the one for me. I've always been less ever a fan than others. I mean, acknowledging he's worthy of all the praise, but, you know, whatever, he's, you know, he was as bigger than everybody more than he was the more skilled and blah, blah, blah. But anyway, it is a fascinating conversation.

I love these things, and Curry's performance has definitely thrust him in there. By the way, unless Jason Tatum scores like 40 a game for the next two, even if Boston wins, I think Curry should arguably be the MVP. And I never say that about the losing player. He's been that much better than everybody in this series. It's so funny. I was having the same conversation with my son about this. He's like after Friday night, he's like, let's just say they lose in seven,

but Curry goes for like 40 plus the rest of the way. And I just said, yeah, MVP. He could absolutely. because personally, look, I think Jason Tatum's great, but I think he has forced it way too much in this series. And I think it hurt him the other night. He did not score, I think, in the final nine minutes of the game the other night. One more thing about the list. So the other thing about the list that I just gave, and it sounds like, you know, we'd probably have the same group of players maybe in a different order.

I don't know. Curry's the only small guy in the group, you know. And if Iverson's way up on your list or Isaiah's way up on your list, those are other small guys. But everybody else is a powerful athletic, you know, figure, you know, or just a big guy. But here's the thing about Curry going into these NBA finals. I think the one thing that you could say and say very justifiably, you know, especially with more recent players, Look, I mean, LeBron carried Timothy Mosgov and Amman Shumpert and Matthew Delavadova to the finals and to a sixth game against Golden State.

He had some of those Cleveland teams where they were winning 60 games and they were the number one seed. And Curry, when everybody was banged up and he was out there by himself, they were one of the worst teams in the NBA. And Curry hasn't carried his team the way some of these other great players have. but he did the other night. And if he were to complete this series, which, by the way, I'm not predicting it. I think Boston's just the better team. I think Boston's the better team. I think they are a very good defensive team.

And I think that the other night, kind of like what we saw with Miami in game six, now they came back two days later. They've got the extra day here of rest because of the travel. But I kind of think that we may have seen everybody Friday night for Golden State, Steph in particular, basically give it all they have and they may not have much left. I mean, Jimmy Butler was still great in game seven, but you could tell Miami was a super tired team after what they had given in that game six to even up the series. I think Boston's better. But if Steph puts his team on his back the way he did Friday

night two more times, this is defining. I think Friday night. was his greatest, you know, big game that he's ever played. I'm not sure there's a close second. And if he were to do it another time or two and they were to win a title with really not a lot of support, Drayman's been up and down, Clay's been up and down, and Clay hit some big shots the other night in the fourth quarter. But at that position against that team, that would be really an accomplishment where I think it would change the minds of a lot of people who don't think that he's in that conversation or for the people that threw him into the conversation without actually doing the list of who you would take out. But I think he all the sudden

bolts in front of several people if that happens. I don't think it will though. Do you? My take going into the series was I think Golden State has the good to get three wins, but they're going to need to be gifted a fourth because I just don't think they have enough out. and losing game one, that was, I think, he's probably going to come back to Bison, would be my guess, that Boston just had more options. You know, Curry has to make, you know, he can't just score 30, right? He has to do much more, or Clay,

it has to have one of those special games, or somebody else has to unexpectedly make, you know, five-threes, things like that, and that's the part where it just seems more complicated for them. But, you know, as Rudy Tomjohn-evich said, never underestimate the heart of a champion, and that team obviously has the DNA to get it done. So, you know, I don't think Boston's all that impressive in terms of being a title team,

but they are a deeper group. But we'll see Jason Tate's got to step up to them in ways he hasn't quite done yet to put this thing over the top. But we'll see. It should be fun. Yeah, I'm looking forward to tonight. It's going to be interesting to see how he plays. All right. Thank you for doing this. At Ben Standing on Twitter. Listen to Ben's podcast, Standagrim Only.

We'll talk later in the week. Thanks. Thanks to Ben for joining us. Ben and I were just talking about the NBA finals and Steph Curry, the possibility that he could become the MVP, even if the Warriors lose. He is a solid favorite right now at MyBooky minus 155 to win the NBA finals MVP. Jason Tatum is plus 175. The Warriors right now in the series at My Bookie are minus 155 to win the NBA finals MVP. Jason Tatum is plus 175. The Warriors are plus 175 to win. win the series. Two of the three games are in San Francisco if it goes seven. The line tonight at MyBooky, Golden State is a four-point favorite. The total is two, ten, and a half. Go to mybooky. ag, my bookie.com, sign up, use my promo code Kevin DC, and they'll match your first deposit dollar for dollar all the way up to a thousand bucks. All right, they're going to double your first deposit. You deposit 200 bucks, you'll end up with 400 in your account. Up to a thousand. If you deposit a thousand, you'll end up with 2,000 in your account. MyBooky.com, mybooky.ag. Use my promo code, Kevin, DC. Up next, a final thought on this Jack Del Rio situation as it relates to how it

gets handled tomorrow at minicamp. We'll get to that right after. These were. from a few of our sponsors. Window Nation has a great deal going on right now. Buy two windows, get too free with no limits. So if you need 12 windows, you're only going to pay for six of them. And you don't have to put any money down. You don't have to make any payments. And you won't pay any interest for two full years.

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It's mandatory. This story will be Terry McClure, but part of that story will be the story from last week, Jack Del Rio. By the way, I was just thinking, I mean, they reconvene in about a month and a half, end of July. I don't know what the first day of training camp is. I think it's the 31st or 30th. And before we know it, that first preseason game against Carolina will be here on August 13th. And then they'll be at Arrowhead on August 20th.

That's kind of an interesting preseason matchup to play the Chiefs at Arrowhead. It's a Saturday afternoon NFL network game. so it'll be a game that the whole country, if they're watching preseason football, will be watching. But that's all going to be here before we know it. But one last off-season thing, and it's mini-camp, and who knows, maybe Ron will cut it short. Maybe it'll be one or two days, and they'll tell everybody to go home before a Thursday, a final day of minicamp.

Last year, they basically took the final three days of OTAs and turned it into minic. Camp. So they got all nine OTA days in this year. Let's see what happens with minicamp. They get three days this week. But tomorrow, I believe it's tomorrow. It could be Wednesday or Thursday, but I would expect that Ron Rivera is going to address the media tomorrow. And look, I'm not, I'm just weighing in with a couple of thoughts. I would not subject anybody. Ron Rivera, certainly not Jack Del Rio. I mean, you can't let Jack Del Rio speak this week. He's already done his one required offseason press conference. It was a disaster. I'm sure they thought that they were within seconds of getting away with it and getting him out of there. And they almost were. But, you know,

Jack kind of looked some of these reporters in the eyes and probably thought to himself, these guys, these media members, I'll show them. And he stepped all over. And he stepped all over. as you know what, in his answer, whether you agree with him or not, it doesn't matter. I mean, he put the organization into a very difficult situation last week in this kind of self-inflicted damage mode. They've got to cut that shit out. They really do. And tomorrow, I think it's really important that Ron Rivera, who can really get on a role and really start talking and really start riffing that they need to be careful with Rivera, or we could have another headline tomorrow. And what I would do is I would have Rivera read from a prepared statement. He should say I'll answer

all football-related questions here in a moment, but I have a statement on what happened here last week with our defensive coordinator, Jack Del Rio. And then he should say something approximating the following. We find Jack Del Rio $100,000 for his comments last week regarding January 6th being a mere dust-up. Those comments put the business of our organization at risk, and while we believe Jack's entitled to his opinions and has the right to express them, we are a for-profit business with paying customers, corporate sponsors, and by the way, local governments that are critical to the future health of our organization. Free speech isn't free of consequence, and we all learned that last week. And I've made it clear that this goes for everybody at any level in our organization. And then I'd express some organizational self-awareness and humility, which has never been a hallmark for this group over the years.

But I think he should say something like, you know, we're trying our best to rebuild the trust that many have lost in us. The image that most of you have of us isn't great. We know that and we've earned that. That's on us. We need to do better. We don't have the luxury of turning people off anymore. And then he could talk a little bit about how, you know, we've turned over this organization over the last two years.

We've got some wonderful people doing some great work, but we're not close to being where we want to be yet. And while we're trying to get to where we want to go, we're going to leave all of the controversial topics, the political issues, the divisive issues, the social issues of the day, to organizations that have built up much more credibility with their fans and business partners than we have. We're going to focus as much as we can on building a winning football team and being better partners and service providers to our fans. and clients. And then I think he should finish up with, you know, kind of acknowledging that I know all of you have a job to do and I respect that. But I've said all that I'm going to say on this matter. I'm here to answer all football-related questions, any that you have, who's first.

And that would be it. I would steer clear from a lot of what was in the statement on Friday that accompanied the announcement of the $100,000 fine. for Del Rio and I would stick with what happened last week was bad for business and we can't afford that moving forward. That's what I would do. But we'll see what happens tomorrow. Should be exciting and Tommy will be here with me to talk about it. Done for the day back tomorrow.