The Kevin Sheehan Show - Mike Shanahan on the Redskins' Draft

Episode Date: May 3, 2019

Kevin opened with the Nats' win and the firing of their pitching coach. He talked quickly about the NBA Playoffs and also updated a Twitter poll he put out this morning asking "Have you changed your mind about Bruce Allen?" Mike Shanahan joined the show to talk about the NFL Draft and the Skins' draft in detail. Andy Pollin was a guest with his thoughts on the Theismann jersey debate and Bobby Beathard who retired 30 years ago this weekend. <p> </p><p>Learn more about your ad choices. Visit <a href="https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices">podcastchoices.com/adchoices</a></p> Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You want it. You need it. It's what everyone's talking about. The Kevin Sheehan Show. Now here's Kevin. All right. I am here. Aaron is here. This show is presented by Window Nation. If you're in the market for Windows, call 86690 Nation or go to Window Nation.com and tell them we told you to call. Mike Shanahan's going to be with us here shortly. We'll get his thoughts on the NFL draft and the Redskins draft in particular. Poland will be on the show later on as well. I want to start real quickly with the Nats for a couple of reasons. They won and then they fired their pitching coach. Aaron was there yesterday afternoon and I warned you that there was going to be a delay and it was a two hour, 20 minute delay.

But it was a good win for the Nats. They brought in Sean Doolittle for a four-out save. And I was watching the game and I thought it was interesting that Bob and F.P. indicated that they thought it was possible that he would come out, come out in the 8th to get a more than a three-out save because this was a game that they had to have. You know, we're on May 2nd, and there was a desperation to win that game. I know it had been some time since Doolittle had pitched, and I know it wasn't the first time that he had been asked to pitch in the 8th and get more than three outs.

But Barraclaw had struck out two, and one of the singles he had given. given up was an infield single, plus it was Goldschmidt, a right-hander coming to the plate. Anyway, Doolittle got it done. I mean, Goldschmidt did hit one foul a mile. Yeah, that got to the concourse. Yeah, a mile. But he got it done, and the Nats were able to avoid a four-game sweep at the hands of St. Louis, with once again not much offense to speak of. Now, after the game came the news that the team had fired pitching coach, Derek Liloquist. And Rizzo made the announcement, Mike Rizzo, their general manager, made the announcement,

saying, quote, we felt that both the rotation and the bullpen, we thought we had some flaws in there, we thought that there were preparation issues in there, and we thought we wanted to get a new message and a new voice, closed quote. Minor League pitching coordinator Paul Menhart, takes over. Now, by the way, some irony last night. They're very good pitching coach for many years. Mike Maddox was in the building because he's now the Cardinals pitching coach. I don't know much about Liloquist. You can tell me about him, but it strikes me as maybe the first attempt at a sacrifice to help jump start a turnaround from

this disappointing start. And if they continue to struggle, there may be another sacrifice coming. What do you think? I do think it's that. Actually, it was, I think it was Tom Boswell who asked Rizzo about that, pointing out, you know, typically this is the first step. You know, when you see something this early, it's kind of the first step towards the manager. Rizzo denied that he showed faith in Martinez. But, yeah, I mean, it doesn't feel so much, because it's so early, not that it's early in this season, but like, if you liked Liloquist last year, which they may or may not, and I think Ken Rosenthal actually got on the nationals about this.

Why are you firing him a month in? This definitely feels like, okay, this team is underachieving. We have to do something. Right. Now, since reports have come out that people, I don't want to use the word lazy, though I actually have seen that word thrown around a little bit. I have never, I can't say that. I can't attest to that.

He was apparently a very hands-off type of. He was a quote-unquote players coach, and sometimes that came across as not doing enough to get the job done. so that was kind of one of the things that got in and that's what you heard a lot we need a different message going there we need different things we want someone more hands on and this guy's apparently

very hands on though it's interesting that they talk about Rizzo talked a lot about how the players know him when most of the players in the rotation in the bullpen at this point didn't go through the Nationals minor league system like I think there's five players that were acquired yeah it was five players

who actually came up through the minors through the nationals because most of them have been acquired outside. So I think a lot of these people don't really know Menhart that well. He's apparently, I heard the word change-up whisperer last night. So we'll see. A change-up whisperer? Yes, he teaches everybody the change-up and does that well. I mean, we'll see how it goes. I mean, you pointed this out yesterday. They have a very difficult road trip starting tonight in Philadelphia, followed by

Milwaukee, and then a four-game set next weekend against the Dodgers in L.A., and that's 10 games. and, you know, if it's a two and eight kind of a road trip, they could be six, seven, eight games back, and it could be another sacrifice coming when they get back. I still believe, after listening to Rizzo the other morning on the junkies, I still believe that they're not going to fire Dave Martinez until he's had ample time with a healthy lineup.

That's what I believe in listening to him, because I think he really believes no Trey Turner, no Anthony Rendon, no Zimmerman here recently, no Soto. You know, that there are reasons why they have struggled here. But they did get a much needed win, a two-to-one win without much offense to avoid the four-game sweep. If they go two and eight, they're 15 and 25 coming back. They're probably, yeah, I mean, they're 10 games under 500. You're talking about at least eight games out.

I don't know that they will, especially because I just realized that that off day at the end of their road trip is actually that their big charity night. So they might wait a little bit longer for that. If you're 15 and 25, 40 games in, Dave Martinez is feeling the heat. All right. The NBA last night, real quickly, one game, Philly, Toronto. Joel Embed was incredible in that game for Philadelphia. They blew out the Raptors. I shouldn't say, well, it was a blowout final score.

Kauai Leonard did everything he could to keep Toronto in the game and had the lead to eight at the end of the third quarter and then sat at the beginning of the fourth to get some rest. and that's when it went sideways for Toronto. I liked and picked Toronto before this series started. They're down two games to one. And really watching last night, it didn't look good for them moving forward. Embed and his teammates, if they play that way, it's going to be pretty tough for Toronto to win,

and it's definitely going to be difficult for them to win if Kyle Lowry doesn't step up and play much better. I know we've seen this in the postseason with Toronto before, with Lowry and DeRosen in the past coming up, but they have Kauai Leonard. They've got a top three to top five player in the league on their team. Lowry's got to play better, and I think they can still come back and win it, but they were handled last night.

Tomorrow night's Golden State at Houston with the Warriors 2-Up in the series. How about this stat on the series? Kevin Durant's taken 22 mid-range jumpers. The Rockets as a team have taken nine mid-range jumpers. mid-range over analytic threes, Aaron, so far in this series. Look, Golden State shoots a lot of threes, but they're going to play game three tomorrow night at 8 o'clock on ABC. I'm actually looking forward to that game. Although I don't know if I'm going to be home, but I'll record it.

I don't know if I'll record it. ESPN did this thing that they've done in recent years, which is to get anonymous takes from NFL, you know, scouts, evaluators, executives on everyone's draft. I think Mike Sando put this together for him. This exercise that he goes through with league execs and scouts is a reflection, by the way, when you read through some of this of just how many different opinions there are on the same guys. And these are opinions from the guys that are paid to get it right. Like here's an example, and I'll read you what was written about the Redskins draft.

But T.J. Hawkinson was taken by the Lions at what, number eight overall, something like that. Yes. Was it number eight overall? Yes, it was number eight. And the write-up on T.J. Hawkinson in this story, they've got a quote from a team executive and they've got a quote from a talent evaluator. The team executive says, quote, it wasn't even close for me personally between

Hawkinson and Fant, Noah Fant, the other Iowa tight end. I thought Hawkinson was awesome. If we had been in position to trade up for him, I would have done it in a heartbeat. and would not have blinked. Then from a talent evaluator about T.J. Hawkinson, if you think Hawkinson is Rob Gruncowski, great, but he's not. The only time you draft a tight end in the first round is if you're getting an absolute freak, who is athletically unique.

Vernon Davis was that, and he's still playing. To use a top 10 pick, that guy's got to be grunk, close quote. So there you go. And it goes like that throughout. You get varying opinions on the same guy. Now, here's what was written or said about the Redskins from anonymous people. First on Haskins, quote, this was from a talent evaluator in the league. I think their biggest thing is not so much record, but they renewed excitement to sell tickets.

I think they did get two good picks with Haskins and Sweat. The talk before the draft was that they were willing to do anything to get a quarterback, but they stayed patient and he fell to them, closed quote. Another evaluator on Haskins. A better version of James Winston, better because Haskins sees things quicker. Haskins has the potential to be a classic West Coast quarterback, the type of guy Bill Walsh would have liked to have gotten his hands on, closed quote. That's good. You know what? I like James Winston.

I know that not everybody likes James Winston. I still think James Winston has a chance to be a great quarterback. And it may happen with Bruce Ariens in Tampa. But Winston has had some big games and is still a talent. But anyway, so that was what was said about Haskins from anonymous talent evaluators and executives around the league. This is what was said about Montez Sweat, quote, in the opinions were mixed. Quote, Sweat could be the best pass rusher in the draft, but there are serious medical and character concerns that took them off some boards entirely.

That from a talent evaluator in the league. And then from another person in the league, quote, he is a potential Randy Gregory. Actually, I'm sorry, this is from the same person, the same evaluator. He is a potential Randy Gregory. Washington's entire defense, or most of it, will be interesting the way they've based it

on some of the guys they've gotten, closed quote. So I guess that would include sweat to him and Ruben Foster. I'm assuming that would be the other one. So anyway, just wanted to read some of that. So on yesterday's show, we titled the show, hashtag extend Bruce Allen. And it's funny because I think we, I went back and listened to that portion of the show

because when we got into that, we were looking for hashtag extend Bruce, not hashtag extend Bruce Allen. There may have been more hashtag extend Bruce Allen's than hashtag extend Bruce's. But we titled the show hashtag Bruce Allen, and that of course started a, you know, a social media reaction to me. I don't know if you got the same thing, Aaron, but people saying, are you kidding me? You want to extend Bruce Allen? No, that wasn't actually what we talked about.

We actually talked about the opposite, in fact. So sorry, sorry for the misleading title. I guess we should have put a question mark in there. Exactly. We should have put a question mark after hashtag extend Bruce Allen. Another topic yesterday was an opinion that I had based on the conversation with a guy that I played golf with the day before who said, you got to play Haskins. You got to play Haskins because you got to find out quickly. And I agreed with that.

I hadn't thought of it that way. So I said, you know, playing Haskins, you know, you should play him sooner rather than later if he's anywhere near as good as Keenham and Colt McCoy. And the reason that, you know, I described yesterday on the show was you need to find out if Dan and Bruce are right about Haskins. Because if they're not right, next year's quarterback class is considered a uniquely strong quarterback class that brought. a few responses from Poppy on Twitter. L.O.L. Wow. Kevin She and DC at Kevin Sheand-D-C. He's already talking about how to get Haskins out of here. Just throw him out there so you can move on and draft a quarterback next year. Truly amazing. Actually, that's not at all what I was doing. And I emphasize that, A, the only way you're going to learn if he can do this is to put him out

there. You know, the meetings and the scout team, it's not going to be revealing at all. got to play, you've got to put him out there to learn, you know, whether or not he's the guy. You know, you're going to be able to learn some stuff potentially, you know, but you really need to see him play. But I also conceded simultaneously that if he's not ready, you can't put him out there because you won't learn much that way either, right? So I understand both arguments. My conclusion was this, if he is anywhere near ready and the competition with Keenham and McCoy is close, then they should play him. First of all, if it's close competitively with the other quarterbacks, why would you wait? You know, it doesn't happen that

much with first round quarterbacks anymore if they're remotely ready. If you drafted him because you loved him and he beats out the competition or he's close to beating out the competition, you get him out there because you've got to find out if you got it right. 29% of first round quarterbacks over the last 15 years have become legitimate multi-year starting NFL quarterbacks. So the odds are stacked against him and all the others to begin with. So you've got to find out quickly if you hit on one of the three out of ten that make it. And yes, because next year's quarterback draft appears to be very good and because if you're being realistic, especially if you start a rookie quarterback, it's very possible that you're going to end up with a top 10 pick.

You should want to find this out sooner rather than later. Not at the expense of rushing him out there too early if he really isn't ready and he's more of a long-term project. I get that. And I'm for that if that's what they decide. needs a year or two behind a veteran until you turn him loose fine but if he is more advanced if he is close to keen him and colt you know during uh training camp and even before then get him out there i think it makes sense so i did this poll this morning um which has gotten uh i was i was curious off that conversation yesterday about bruce allen which was not um a conversation that dealt with advocating for a contract extension for Bruce Allen at all.

It was actually the opposite. But I did this poll this morning because I was curious to find out. Actually, somebody suggested that I do this, and I thought it was a good idea. I did a poll this morning just to find out, you know, what people thought of Bruce Allen after this draft. And it was a simple question. Have you changed your mind about Bruce Allen? Now, by the way, you know, for the one person or the two people that asked me, changed my mind how? Well, then you shouldn't be answering it.

If you needed me to describe what I meant, you know, I really think your answer that it's coming from, you know, a place of not close to following the Redskins. If you're following the Redskins, I think you know what I meant when I said, have you changed your mind about Bruce Allen? Have you changed your mind about Bruce Allen was, you know, I think self-explanatory, and I think it was for 99% of you. But anyway, I digress.

So Bruce Allen's been doing a ton of now. national media, bathing in the accolades of a highly rated draft, taking victory laps of sorts. By the way, Skins' social media is celebrating a lot of this as well. They had a tweet yesterday that said, in case you forgot how our draft went, and then they link you to all of these grades on the draft. and they've got a quote actually on the image that they put up there from Adam Shine from NFL.com. Honestly, not a fan, not a big fan. I can't think of many people who would have an opinion about the Redskins draft that I would care less about. But the quote from Adam Shine was,

The Redskins showed incredible patience and intelligence en route to dominating the NFL draft. And that was the quote they put front and center and then linked you to all. all of this. And so anyway, I did a poll asking a simple question, have you changed your mind about Bruce Allen? And the results are, I don't know, I don't know that they're surprising to me. I guess the overwhelming nature of the answer being no.

The noes came in. I mean, we're approaching 2,000 votes, and the noes are at 91%. All right, 91% say, no, I've not changed my mind about Bruce Allen. And 9% of you said, yes, and there are a lot of comments. You know, I won't change my mind until we are consistently playing in January.

How could you? Others saying, you know, Bruce is a politician only comes out when it's time to vote. In other words, you won't see or hear from him when things are going bad, big phony, etc. There was another one that I wanted to read that was, you know, somebody sarcastically saying, yeah, I've completely forgotten about the sea of green that invaded FedEx Field. one weekend late last year. Football isn't played in April. So everybody overwhelmingly, and I'm glad to see this,

has not been duped by, you know, an activity in April, a very important activity, but one that we're really not going to know much about until later on. You know, just one of these years, just one of these years, I would love it if the Redskins just learned how to under-promise and over-deliver. You know, under-sell under-promise during the off-season would be nice. Over-deliver in January.

Just once. Just once. I don't want to hear about how great they are. You know, the Redskins Twitter page tweeted out a picture yesterday of Landon Collins and DRC with their shirts off and a big smiley face saying giant mood. like don't troll your division rivals, especially the one that kicked your ass last year when they were up by 40 at one point. And I know Landon Collins played for the Giants last year. But just for once, please do what the good franchises do.

Under promise and over-deliver when the games start. I get it that they need to get some tickets sold this year more than ever. I do understand they're trying to leverage this overwhelming positive response to their draft because for now it's the only thing they have to market. I get that. I get that. But anyway, I just, it's frustrating. I'm glad, you know, I figured that most of you would say, no, you haven't changed your mind about Bruce Allen. I didn't realize it would be 91 to 9%. But I'm glad to see that. Mike Shanahan coming up here in a moment. But first, a quick word about window nation. Window Nation right now has a huge 33% off sale going on your entire spring project,

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They will come out. They will give you a free in-home estimate, and that in-home estimate is good for six. days. Trust me, these guys will get it done for you. Call 86690 Nation today or go online at Windonation.com. That's 86690 Nation or Windonation.com. I promise you won't be disappointed and tell them that I sent you. All right, let's bring in Mike Shanahan to the podcast. And I was thinking about you, you know, leading up to the draft because I was curious to get your opinions on various players, but I thought I'd wait until after the draft to bother you. So we knew, you know, which players were with which teams and which players were with good fits and in good systems,

etc. to really get, you know, a better feel for what you think. But I know you pay attention to the draft, at least the early portions of the NFL draft. And I wanted to get you on to talk about it. And before we get to, you know, I think a lot of people that listen to the podcast will be interested in your thoughts on the Redskins draft and Dwayne Haskins in particular, I'm curious as to your thoughts on where the draft began, and that was with Kyler Murray. What kind of player do you think Kyler Murray is going to be? Well, the reason why I kind of paid some attention there is with San Francisco with the second pick. You just weren't really sure what direction Arizona was going to go for sure. And so for the first time, I got a chance to really watch him and study him,

and I was really amazed that what type of athlete I was dealing with, the more film I was watched. I mean, you could really do it all. You know, obviously he doesn't have the size, but, you know, speed, quickness, arm strength, the ability to deliver at all different angles, really quick release. All the things you look for in the quarterback, you know, you don't know the intangibles about what type of guy he is, but from, just watching him as a pro quarterback, the only thing he was lacking was size. Everything else, you know, that you looked at, you really loved. So I was really impressed with him as a football. ball player. Is size, you know, there was a time where I think everybody felt like you had to be a certain height to play quarterback, and perhaps Russell Wilson's the quarterback, and Drew Breeze, Drew Breeze to a lesser extent, has changed the feeling, but I think everybody now feels that people like you deem it to be less important quarterback size. Am I right or wrong? You're exactly right, because you can go in the shotgun formation. If a quarterback is having a hard time center. All you've got to do is put him in a shotgun, and he feels very comfortable being back

there because you don't have to take that three, five, seven-step drop, and all of a sudden trying to look over offensive linemen instead of trying to find a hole in the offensive line where you can look at the seams. You know, being in that shotgun really helps a short quarterback. What kind of system do you have to have for Kyler-Marie? Cliff Kingsbury loved him. I think everybody thought once the moment he was hired that we were going to see a college-style offense if he took Kyla Murray. Do you agree with that? I think it's really kind of what offense Cliff feels comfortable with. And a lot of people, depending on their background, you know, they're used to one type

of offense or maybe two types of schemes. And I think he's going to do what he has done in college and do what he feels comfortable with. And I think the thing about the quarterback that he has, you can really kind of run any type of offense if you want to run a, you know, if you want to run the quarterback keeps, if you want to run the old zone raid, if you want to be a dropback team, spread the defense out and let him make some plays with his God-given running ability and his ability to throw in the run, I think he's going to be extra special. Does Kyle ask you to help, I mean, with, you know, reviewing quarterbacks or players or other teams? I mean, how much does Kyle rely on your experience? I'm just curious as to what, you know,

You know, he calls you and asks you to help him with, if anything. Well, what you do, I think, I mean, anytime you've got a father-son relationship, you're always going to help them or try to at least give them your opinion on different people that you think they may draft. So if they're weak in one area or you think they may draft a person in that area, you're going to really study that or at least try to study it and help them out. If he ever asks you your opinion, you've got a chance to give them a good opinion. One thing that, you know, they're not doing is obviously looking at.

at quarterbacks, and the only reason they're looking at Murray is because you're going to be playing within the division. Right. Did he ask you to look at, for this particular draft, what was the area in which you were trying to help? If you can share it with me, I'm just curious. No, I mean, I take the look. Number one, you're taking a look at tight ends.

You're taking a look at wide receivers. You're taking a look at defensive backs. You're looking at pass rushers. I would say that would be the four areas that they went into the draft to look at. at those positions, and obviously they look at all of them, but they're really emphasizing, hey, the top guys in those positions because they thought, you know, one of those guys would be there and you'd have to isolate it down which guy you wanted. You're always going to be interested in the quarterbacks, though, and we'll get to

more of those. How good is Bosa, by the way? I think he's going to be really good. I think, you know, the big question is, can he stay healthy? It's a big question, Mark, because you don't know. but if you take a look at his play, very impressive. You know, very impressive. He's got God-given skills, both brushing the quarterback and playing the run, and I think he's going to have a great future in the NFL.

All right. Let's get to the quarterbacks. Which of the quarterbacks did you like, and which of the quarterbacks would you have hesitated on? Well, that's one of the things that it's really hard, unless you see the intangibles, because you can always see an athlete, but you don't know how he handles him.

himself. And so you can see, like if you're talking about Haskins, you see a big, strong guy, great arm strength. You know, he's not a scrambler. He's not going to make a lot of plays on the run, but I've heard a lot of good things about him as a person. And can that translate to National Football League? Does he have the ability to step in the pocket and shuffle? You know, he's not running a pro-attack. And so you have to project a little bit on where this guy will be in a year or six months or two years. But you do have a big, powerful, smart guy with big arm strain, has the ability to make all the throws with no effort. Now the question is, will he feel comfortable in the pocket? It's going to be a little different dealing in the National Football League

with those small windows and not having the type of skill around him that he had at Ohio State, at least the difference between the skill level between the offensive players and the defensive some players he was going against. He's not going to have guys as wide open as he did when he was at Ohio State. Is that your biggest concern about him under pressure in a pocket and creating more time in the area of the pocket because he won't be a guy that'll extend plays outside the pocket with his legs? Is that your number one concern or not? Well, number one, you know, Ohio State's a good football team. So, I mean, they've got some great skill around them, not only in the back, fill, wide receivers, tight ends, and great offensive lines.

So when he goes back, he's used to a certain amount of protection. You don't have to step up. You don't have to slide as much as some players do at the respect of college. So you don't really see it so you don't know. I'm not saying he can't do it. You just haven't seen him do it week and week out, which will have to do in the National Football League. Is Jay's system a good system for him?

Well, it all depends what system Jay is using. He's using the system of Alex Smith, Kirk Cousins, you know, what he attempted to do with Robert, you know, at least a little bit of what was done, you know, in that 2012 season. I think Jay has, you know, especially last year with Alex Smith, you know, he changed his offensive scheme relative to what he was doing compared to years past with Kirk. So I think he has the ability to do whatever he wants to do,

and he's going to have to be able to adjust if he's not comfortable being able to, you know, slay in the pocket and do some of the things that those drop-back quarterbacks do. By the way, just as an aside, one of the things that I found surprising, and I think I talked to you during the course of the year, and I forget if it was on the podcast or off it, I was not, there was a disconnect for me in what Jay was trying to do with Alex. There weren't a lot of boots. There wasn't a lot of early-down play action. There wasn't a lot of quick game. There was drop back and there was a lot of RPO, but it almost seemed like it wasn't what Alex Smith should have been able to do well. I would have thought, and maybe I'm wrong, and this is

why I'd ask you, I would have thought some of the stuff that Kirk did with Gruden, especially in the quick game stuff, and the play action and the boot stuff would have been good for Alex. They didn't run a lot of that last year. Why do you think that was? You know, I really don't know, but, you know, Alex is really a unique guy. I mean, what he can do running, he's got such a skill set. And I really don't know his ability to drop back with a conventional pro-style attack because at Kansas City they would change your game plans week and week out, very flexible what they did on offense.

And I think that's what Jay was trying to do with him. And I think it takes time for, you know, the head coach and the quarterback to get in sync and really figure out what somebody's really good at until you spend some time with them. All right. Back to Haskins for a moment. and then I'll move on to Monta's sweat because I want to get your thoughts on him as a pass rusher. Would Haskins, if you had had to put together a board this year of quarterbacks, how would you have rated them, at least the guys that went, you know, first second round?

And I'm talking about, you know, Murray, obviously, Daniel Jones, Drew Locke, Dwayne Haskins. How would that board have fallen? Well, you know, like I said, the only reason I hesitate a little bit is because the big question to me is the intangibles of the quarterback. I mean, what is the guy made of? So let's judge it on talent, on what you saw on film only. You take a look at a guy like Askins, you say, you know, he can make all the throws. He's big, he's strong.

You know, they say he's, you know, really into football, and he's an easy guy to deal with. The only thing I didn't see is I didn't see a pro-style offense and a guy with the ability to just kind of shuffle, step, kind of go through a process. and be able to dump the ball very quickly. And that doesn't mean he can't do it. It's just a style of offense they ran with much different than he's much different than he's going to see in the National Football League.

It'll be interesting. You'll see it very quickly as you go through the minicamps and you go through the preseason games exactly his ability to do those things because it comes out very quickly. Because every quarterback you have, you find out in the first month or so what this guy can do,

how easy it is for him to slide to go through the process that a quarterback has to go through and go through his proper progressions. What did you think of Daniel Jones going six to the Giants? Well, here's a polish drop-back quarterback, in my opinion. You know, he probably didn't have the skill around them that a lot of quarterbacks do have, didn't have the pass protection. But this guy is ready to, or he will be ready, in my opinion, to step into a offense that has a lot of the best.

as a pro-attack because that's what he's been doing throughout his career. And obviously with the man in background with the coach and the system that he's got, he's been looking at that day and day out, you know, practice his games, and I think he'll be more NFL ready. Does he have the armed talent that Haskins has? No, not anywhere close. The strength, but he's still a pretty good athlete. He makes him play scrambling.

It'll be interesting to see if he does have the arm strength to make all the strong, the throws, when he does have to step up and slide to make the big plays down field. You know, that's one of those things Dave Gettleman is taking, you know, an absolute pounding in New York, not so much for, you know, to a certain extent for Jones, but because of where he took him at six overall when they had a 17th pick, and there's a lot of people that feel that he would have been there at 17. What do you think? Well, I think that's what you, I mean, what Dave got to do is he says, hey, if he feels like he's the guy of the future. You've got to get him with your pick, whatever that pick is.

And there's always going to be different opinions on quarterbacks because it happens every year. I mean, that thing's never going to change. But if you ask me the strength and the weaknesses of a guy like Jones or a guy like Caskins, or if you go to Murray, I think you've got to say, okay, if you do have this guy, you're going to have to install a certain type of offense. You're going to have to adjust, you know, maybe your personnel to the strength and the weaknesses of who your quarterback is. And I think with a guy like Haskins, if he is going to be that drop-back guy, what he's going to have to get a feel of is a pro-attack. He's going to have to learn how to dump the ball off very quickly, how to slide in the pocket, and still be able to focus

down the field because he's not going to make a lot of plays running the ball, which sometimes is very good. A guy like Rothesberger. He doesn't run very often, but boy, he's able to slide and make all the throws. Did you like any of the other quarterbacks where there was Locke or Greer or Finley? Did you like anybody else? Well, I looked at Lock, and I did like Locke, because he could make any throw without even stepping into a throw.

He could throw the ball 65 yards, and not even if his foot could be going off to the left, just like a guy like Aaron Rogers, and all of a sudden that ball is gone. And so very little effort he can make every throw without stepping into the throw. and that was pretty impressive. Also played on a team that probably didn't have the talent of some of the other teams and probably the reason why I didn't have some of the great stats against some of the SEC schools. But I was impressed with how he played the game. And I thought he was an athlete enough where he could throw the ball and also throw the ball on the run.

So I was impressed what I saw. By the way, Mike, how much does a college coach influence a pick? you know, Daniel Jones was coached by David Cutcliffe at Duke, who obviously mentored Peyton Manning and has been thought of of a really good mentor to quarterbacks and a pro-style offense, et cetera. How important is a college coach's influence on a draft pick? Well, I think all depends on the coach and what he's looking for. And, you know, if the guy like David Gettleman is taking a look at a guy saying, hey, I want a guy that looks just like maybe Peyton Manning or, you know,

Eli, or whoever may be, that kind of used to, the system that we have, make the transition as easy as possible, that this is why I want this guy. And where another guy is saying, you know, I'm not really even sure that this guy can run our system. It may take a year or two, but we can see that he's got a big upside because he's big and strong. He can make every throw with no effort. Is that the better guy? And so, you know, those intangibles that I talk about is to me such a key when you meet with a guy. for hours and you get a chance to find out what he's made of and what's important to him. And, you know, is this going to be a way of life for him or is just, you know, just something that

he does on the side? Because as a quarterback, you've got to be fully invested or you just don't make it. You know, all of the talk, and you've mentioned this multiple times, as has everybody about, you know, the part of it that we don't know if we're not involved in interviewing the players and talking, you know, through a due diligence process with their coaches and teammates, it's you know, back to 2012. I mean, was it an exhaustive process to find out as much about RG3 as you could? No, I mean, that was part of it. And that was one of the reasons why we drafted Kirk Cousins, you know, in the fourth round. We had two guys there. And we really enjoyed what RG did. I mean, you take a look at his type of offense he ran and the plays

that he made and the skill that he had around him. I mean, he was making plays left after right, but, you know, he did a lot of that with a quick passing game. He didn't, you know, it wasn't like he was reading coverages because everybody was playing to run because of the type of offense that they ran and with a great supporting cast. So the big question I had going into that draft

is, you know, we had, you know, two guys that were hoping would be there in the fourth round. And one was Russell Wilson, one was Kirk Cousins. And after our third round pick, when we decided to go with an offensive lineman at 71, we thought we had a chance of one of those two guys because if Robert could not adjust to the drop-back style offense, we had to have a quarterback that we felt could be our backup

and run the style of offense we were running. And, you know, we could tell very quickly and took camp that it was going to take Robert a little while to get, you know, comfortable with the drop-back offense and the process that goes with it. But he had such an unbelievable sense. skill set with what he could do, we change our offense to fit him and knew that the other, you know, process was going to take a while. And with a guy like Kirk Cousin, we had no idea that

he would pick it up that quick with Russell Wilson already being gone. I think we had Russell Wilson as the next guy, and then we had Kirk after him. And the fourth pick when he was there, we said, hey, you can't ever have enough quarterbacks. And if it doesn't work out, Kirk is going to be the guy. Did you ever consider in the third round when you took Joshua Rebus, who did not work out, did you ever consider there in that third round because Wilson was still on the board at that point in taking Wilson there? You know, we should have, obviously, if we look back, but we didn't.

We just said, hey, we were, number one, we were in a great football team. I mean, we were just building. I mean, that year in 2012, we had every, we turned over the whole offensive, football team. I mean, everybody was a new starter from when we came in. And basically the same thing on defense. So we were an older football team trying to get young. And so we needed to do what we needed, you know, what we could do to get some good football players in. And that's why we went to that direction in the third round. But we still felt we had to have the depth of the quarterback position. And that's why we went with Kirk in the fourth round. And we were just happy one of those

guys were there. You know, we've talked so much in the past when we've done this before on radio and on the podcast, you know, about a lot of the stuff with RG3. So I don't want to spend a lot of time there, but a subject that we haven't talked necessarily in the past, I don't think about the draft and what you were looking for, you know, whether it was Kirk Cousins or Russell Wilson in the, you know, several rounds later. Was Dan in on drafting another quarterback after you guys traded up for RG3? How did those conversations go? Well, you know, I shared with them what I thought, you know, relative, you know, what I think it takes to be a quarterback in national footballing. And you don't know when you do take a quarterback like RG3, how quickly he's going to adjust the dropback attack.

There's going to take some time. But what we were doing at that time, my thought was, you know, something that he could do and do very well. And the threat of the run and a play action off of it, you know, he was just killing people. And people, they had to commit to stopping the run. And the quick game was still there, and even a dropback game after our, I believe, our first buy week, we got so much better on third downs where we tried to simplify it, where we would just take a look at one side of the field, either left or right, and somebody wasn't open.

You'd either run or try to dump it off at the last second. But we got away from the reeds and the things that you normally do with a young quarterback, and you'd try to simplify things a little bit, make them a little bit easier for them, to adjust to so he could just be an athlete. And I thought he really did a great job in that second half of the season and coming back and executing the drop-back game on third downs. Well, it was quite the show in 2012, and we all know the reasons why it didn't continue after that.

We're not going to go down those roads again, but it's curious about the quarterbacks that you had. I know you've mentioned to me that you had Cousins and Russell Wilson evaluated very high. I was just curious as to whatever. everybody else thought because, you know, in the moment, and I remember, you know, doing a show on all the days of the draft and then being out at, I think, FedEx Field for the draft day party when you guys were still drafting in round four and Kirk Cousins got picked. And I remember saying,

look, in this league, you have to have two. I mean, it's been proven over and over again how many times you lose number one. And, but people were very critical of, you know, you trade up for a franchise quarterback. And I thought to myself, although I was a Kirk Cousins fan at Michigan State, but it was a fourth rounder. It's not like you took him in the second round. But if you had taken Russell Wilson in the third, I think the perception would have been even more. It would have been different because it would have been closer to the first round. And Russell Wilson was a bigger name, you know, going into that draft than Cousins. Yeah, and we're not really worried. We weren't worried about the big names. We're just looking for a good.

guys that we think that can run our system. Yeah. We get a guy like Robert, and we knew what type of skills that he had. And we just know the things that we couldn't see on film. The reason why we were going to get a quarterback and other quarterback, we felt like we had to have that type of guy that could come in and learn the offense like Robert and do the things that, you know, they're both, you know, good at. And Robert was, you know, obviously we saw what it in 2012 and the other things

is going to take a little time. And Kirk adjusted very quickly to it. And one of the reasons, you know, when I did leave, that it was really hard for him to beat him out. All right. Real quickly, before we get to the other skins picks that perhaps you know something about, I think you like Montes Sweat. But what did you make of the Josh Rosen thing? Did you like Josh Rosen or not? Well, I think the big thing that really came from Josh, even coming out of college, was the intangibles. I mean, you can see the guy had the quickest release. I mean, the guy was tall.

The guy was smart. And at the same time, the intangibles that we talk about, is little things that make you a great quarterback. And did he have those things? Well, you know, if you go back and look at it, probably didn't. I've been so impressed with him how he handled the situation after the season. I mean, it wasn't the same guy that he was in college,

at least from my perspective, on how he handled the situation. So, you know, people grow up, people, you know, it's part of the process that, you know, even if you're a quarterback and you can do one thing, you can learn the other things if you really want to, but it takes work. You have to look at your deficiencies first and admit that, hey, I got to get good at this in the off season. I got to study my rear end off and put myself in position to succeed. All right, back to the Redskins draft.

They traded back into the latter portion of the first round to take Montez-Swett, the pass-rusher, from Mississippi State. What do you think about Swet? Oh, big upside. I think he's a top five, six, seven pick. You know, anytime you see a guy with that type of speed, that type of, this way he handles himself as well as a guy. I mean, you could see that, at least in my opinion,

the upside is so strong. And if he doesn't reach his goal, it'll be the intangibles that we talk about. But if he's a worker and he's that type of guy, which I heard he is, that I think he's got a chance to be very good. So you think getting him at 26, you know, he dropped because of that heart condition report. And then there were some reports about character-related issues. And it speaks to, as you said, the intangibles that you don't know unless you're, you know,

really in there and you're talking to the kid and you're talking to the people around him. And even then sometimes you don't know. It's still probably pretty hard. but you think that talent-wise this guy was a top-five, top-10 pick? Oh, without a question. Without a question, yeah. I think they've a very good move to get him. What about who they took in the third round, the wide receiver from Ohio State, Terry McLaurin?

I really liked him. I think he's got great speed. I think he runs good routes. I was really impressed, studying him, and watching him for the full season. on the type of ability to run routes, his big play capability, what type of guy he was. You know, he was a guy that, at least from my opinion, what I heard talking to our guys, he has those intangibles that you look for.

I mean, he's a guy that, you know, wasn't raised at that position, but developed the skill set and he has his speed to make the big plays. I just think you're going to look at him as a top receiver in the future. Bryce Love, a guy who had just an unbelievable college football season in 2017, and then battled injuries at Stanford last year. What do you think of him? I actually saw him in person a couple games over his career. And, I mean, you can see he's got a lot of ability.

But I did not. I was really studying running backs that hard. But like you said, I heard a lot of good things about him from the year before, but I really didn't watch him enough to really put my stamp on him one way or the other. You were so good at drafting running backs over the course of your coaching career. And I'm talking about, you know, middle round to late round running backs. Obviously here, Alfred Morris and what you did with him here. What were the things about running backs that you looked for?

I mean, even a guy like Clinton Portis, I mean, here's a guy, you know, coming out, and even though it was a second round, that they've got to have something that special. The thing about Clint was he was so tough. I mean, he was like, I mean, he would block you. And you could see how important it was to be really physical at that position. And when you get a guy that's got great speed and a physical player, and you can see that, you know, the upside is kind of off the charts, that's why he grabbed him when he was there.

And he got so mad at us because we didn't take him in the first run. I said, Clint, quit talking about. We did take you. Remember, we picked you. but he was so distraught. He's talked about that. He's talked about that. Well, you know, the Redskins were the only team, I think,

that didn't have a first round pick that year, and that's why he was fine being traded to the Redskins. At least he's told that story before. But, yeah, I mean, that's a guy that, you know, on Sundays, he competed as hard as anybody. I think the main thing, too, about having a good running game is you've got to believe in the running game. And your whole team has to.

You know, your receivers, your offensive line, and you get a guy that gets positive yards, just like Peterson did last year, you feel like, man, I got somebody that can get the job done. And so, I mean, you're always looking for those guys that can, once they get to the line of scrimmaging, you can get that extra two or three yards, and that's something that we've always looked for.

The rest of their draft, I don't know how deep you would go with any of these guys, but they drafted Wes Martin, a guard from Indiana, in the late latter portion of the fourth round. Ross Pierbocker, a guard center from Alabama. Cole Holcomb from North Carolina. Kelvin Harmon, a wide receiver that a lot of people thought would go earlier from North Carolina State, a corner from JMU, Jimmy Morland, and a defensive end from Oklahoma State, Jordan Brailford.

Do you have any, did you have any opinions, or did you see any of those guys? You know, I didn't really study them enough to really have an opinion. Okay. I mean, I heard different opinions from different people, but I didn't look at those guys or say those guys myself. I might have watched, you know, 20 or 30 highlight plays on them, but not enough to really give you, in my opinion. But you liked sweat a whole lot in terms of his upside, and you feel the same about

McLaur and the wide receiver from Ohio State. Yeah, yeah, I really like those guys. And on Haskins, I mean, you've shared with us, you know, what you think the concerns would be, but also what the strengths are. is it a guy, does your gut tell you it's a guy that's going to take a little while and that the organization needs to be patient with? Well, it's going to take, I mean, anytime you run a different system from college into pro football, it's going to take it a little while. It won't take long though to figure out how easy it is for a guy like Askins to step in up into the pocket slide, be able to go through progressions, how quickly he does. but you'll see very, very quickly, or at least in the first month, is it natural, is it going to take a little bit longer?

And the process of, you know, going through your reads, your coverages, and it's something that takes some time, but some guys can do it very quickly. Other guys, it takes a little bit longer. But the thing that he has is, you know, such great arm strength. He's such a physical player that you know he can make all the throws as soon as you figure out of he can process things quickly and go from first, second, third receiver, and he does that, then you've got somebody very special. But you do think that it's one of those things, because what I'm hearing from you is, you know,

you get through a few mini-camp and training camp practices, you're going to have a really good sense as to, you know, what he's capable of, or how long it's going to take. Well, without a question. I think, you know, very quickly on, you know, this is going to take a while. But it doesn't mean a guy can't get it. Right. You know, what you're saying is half a season, and you may go half a season and saying,

my God, this guy has picked it up very quickly. Or just the opposite. You know, this guy's going to take some more time. Now we can see the physical attributes, but, you know, the process of being a quarterback and national football is more just great arm strength than being a physical guy and, you know, call in plays. I mean, you've got to go through the process very quickly,

and very few guys can do it. And once you have one of those guys, try not to lose them. Look, there have been so many reports over the last going back to the night before the draft, the day of the draft, the days after, and I'm sure you're familiar with some of them about how Haskins was a Dan Snyder put his fist down on the table, this is our guy. And I've learned, and from a lot of the reporting out there, that not all the football people necessarily were in line with Haskins at 15.

Do you have, you know, but now he's there, and now you're going to move on with it. And Jay Gruden's always been, you know, since he's been here, a guy that, you know, will move forward pretty quickly, you know, even if it wasn't necessarily the guy, number one guy he wanted, you know, he'll do his best to make, to make the best out of it. But would you have any advice for Jay, given that this, this, the owner, if you believe the reports, that the owner really wanted Haskins, and that more than any reason is the reason he's here, Would you offer up any advice to Jay or anybody else? Well, I don't think I have to give any advice to Jay

because, you know, he's been pretty much his own man. Yep. You can, I mean, at least from my perspective, you know, you can see when he really likes somebody. He's got a good feel for somebody, and you can tell him something to be and pushed down his throat as well. And I really don't know on this if, you know,

he had Askins as a guy. I know one thing if Jay's just a pure pocket guy, and that's what he's thinking that he wants in his quarterback, there's probably some question marks. But it doesn't mean that he doesn't love Haskins. It's just, you know, hey, we'll go through the process and we'll find out with a pro-style offense how long it takes. And then he's going to run the, at least compete

or the best quarterback that can go in there right away and have success is a guy that he's going to pick. And if this guy can prove he can do the job, then, you know, he's going to play. Who drafted well? I mean, you watched this thing last weekend. Who did you think had a great draft? Well, you know, that's one thing that, you know, at least from my experience, I'll tell you in about two or three years, because anybody that tells you that they know, they don't know.

All I can tell you is that there's a lot of work that goes into it. And, you know, one of the guys that I think you've got, a great guy is in Kyle Smith that I just loved as a young coach. He was not afraid to work and study players. He wasn't afraid to voice his opinion on what guys he thinks will be great players. When you have a guy that really studies film that enjoys football, who's a football guy, you've got a chance to make a lot of the right pick. So I think you get the right guy in Kyle going forward. And even a guy like Kyle, I don't think Dan Schneider is going to influence a guy like Kyle.

I think Kyle is strong enough to stand up there and Bruce Allen as well and say, hey, if you guys want to pick him, you're the owner, you're the GM, but this is what I believe. and I think it takes a guy with that type of personality to have a great draft. Were there players in this draft that you really felt strongly about in terms of you really loved a guy?

You know, there's always those guys that there's always a handful of those guys that you want. Sometimes guys go later on that you'd fit a role on your football team. You know, I really like the quarterback out of Princeton. I thought he was a guy that could be a fullback. I think he's a guy that could be a red zone quarterback,

really put some pressure on the defense. He wound up going to Kansas City, LeVette. And here's a guy that I believe he's taken, is a free agent. Okay, as in on drafts a free agent, I was going to say, I don't remember him being drafted. Yeah, you know, he was a free agent. And it was a guy that he said,

okay, I think this guy could be a legitimate tight-in, be a legitimate F position as well. and help you on special teams and be a quarterback that could run the zone read probably as well as anybody in the national football. If you ever put him in the red zone, he could make throws on top of it. And so there's always a guy like that that stands out. And a guy like that really stood out for me. You take a look at his test scores, intangibles, his 40-speed, his three-cone, all those type of things that you look for in an athlete. He had all those things as a quarterback, and he was darned success.

and one of the highest test scores too. I think he was like 30 in the test score. So anyway, guys like that you follow throughout their careers because you had such a feel for them playing at the collegiate rates. Princeton quarterback John Lovett, right, who is in Kansas City as an undrafted free agent. We will pay it. We'll pay attention to that one. By the way, yesterday I was watching John Harbaugh. He was on ESPN and he was being interviewed by Susie Calberg. And, you know, they're talking about Lamar Jackson and them drafting Marquise Brown, Hollywood Brown from Oklahoma, and the speed that they're putting, you know, onto their offensive football team. He drafted Trace McSorley at a Penn State. And Susie said, is he going to play another position?

He said, no, we like him as, you know, a potential, you know, quarterback or being in some packages, you know, with some of the stuff. And he said, look, we're committed to this thing, meaning we're committed to the way we played football last year. with Lamar Jackson at the end of that season. What did you think of the way the Ravens played offensive football? Because, man, did you really, and I know Cam was doing it, you know, a little bit before in Red Zone stuff, but you really introduced it as a, you know, a 20% part of an offense, you know, a real staple of an offense in 2012. What did you make of the Ravens the way they played last year and Harbaugh's commitment to continue to play this way?

Well, I think they have to play that way because that's what the quarterback can do. I mean, if they're going to go and try to change it to a dropback attack or really, even a play action attack, if they're doing that completely, I think they're making a mistake. And I think in a guy like Brown as a wide receiver was a very good move because you're going to have, you know, eight, nine-man boxes stopping the run. And you've got to have somebody that has the ability to come up with a big play. if you take a look at Brown throughout his career, even though he's not very big,

he's going to make some big-time plays. He's got that type of speed. I think they were just dead on what they want to do, play great defense, a good running game, and take advantage of the play action pass, because that's what the quarterback can do, and he's darn good. And he'll get better at dropping back and throwing the ball.

It just didn't happen overnight. It's going to take a good offseason, maybe next year, but he will get better. You know, it was funny because at the end of the interview, I think Susie asked him about, you know, the losses on defense, obviously, you know, losing their leader, Terrell Suggs and losing the safety weddle. And he said, look, we're the Ravens. We're always going to play defense.

We're going to plug people in that can play defense. And I thought to myself, man, that is their identity. That has been that franchise's identity going back to the first Super Bowl that they won. you know, back in 2000. How important you had an identity for a zone running team. You had a zone run scheme. You found backs that could run the zone run scheme. You had a quarterback that would, you know, as you call them,

quarterback keeps, bootlegs, you know, play action off that zone run scheme. How important is it, you know, to have any sort of consistency with winning to have an identity? Well, I think you have to have an identity to win Super Bowls. And to win one, just like you're mentioning with Baltimore in 2000, they had a great defense, and they played defense as well as anybody. They knew they couldn't turn the football over and win, and so that's what they tried to do, is really play great defense and then not turn a football over. In fact, we lost to them, obviously, there, in our first playoff in there in 2000.

I was just kind of amazed at how well they did play defense and the mindset they did have. But when you take a look at games, you have to play great defense, and you have to win the turnover battle. And if you can't play great defense and win the turnover battle, the chances are you're not going to win in Super Bowls. And that's what teams look for in identity. If it's a running game, you know, you've got to run the ball well and not turn the football over and get some big plays. And that's exactly what Baltimore, to me, philosophy is, and it's a darn good one. You know, I love doing this, and I love catching up, whether it's, you know, on air or off it, you're always very helpful. And, you know, certainly when it comes to quarterbacking and offensive football, your opinion is incredibly valuable to all of us.

So I really appreciate it. As always, I know you've been playing a lot of golf. If you're, you know, if you never get back to D.C., I know that. But when you do, we got to get out and play. And, you know, we'll bring it to something that resembles more than just a public, you know, course. I'll find a good one for you to play. I promise. Sounds good, Kev. Mike, thanks so much. Enjoy talking to you. Take care, buddy. Always good to catch up with Mike Shanahan. I know a lot of you know that I am a big fan,

and some of you don't agree, and some of you do, but I'll just tell you what Steve Young told us one time on the radio show. He said there was never a better offensive mind or a better coach for quarterbacks than Mike Shanahan. And, you know, we all have our own opinions as to how it worked out here. But I am interested and was interested in hearing what he said about the quarterbacks in this draft. And obviously, Dwayne Haskins, you know, you can take what he said about Haskins and make your own conclusions. I don't think it was overwhelmingly positive, but it certainly wasn't necessarily negative either. I think he has some questions about Haskins, but certainly understands the intrigue in the talent and the ability to make every throw in the character

and how smart he is and the whole thing. I think the one takeaway is that he wants to see it in a pro offense before he's going to be really sure of it. He certainly liked the rest of the draft, very high on Montez-Swed, very high on McLaurin, wasn't sure about the rest of the players, but I thought it was interesting that he really pointed out how impressive and how good Kyle Smith is.

And, you know, he has mentioned Kyle Smith to us in the past. And he talks about Kyle Smith almost in the same way that he talked about Sean McVey when Sean McVey was here. And before he ever, you know, before Sean McVey became, you know, a head coaching candidate, you know, it was Shanahan and Cooley who both said, no, this guy's going to be a head coach sooner rather than later. But it was nice to hear him say those nice things about Kyle Smith.

And we had mentioned yesterday that we would play some of the Kyle Smith sound. We played some of it yesterday on Haskins. The show is getting a little bit long today, so we're going to just urge you. Go to Redskins.com. It's all there, all the video, to listen to Kyle Smith with Larry Michael on Redskins Nation. You don't get a chance to hear from Kyle that often, but he's an impressive young guy. All right, a quick word about launch workplaces in Bethesda. If you're looking for new office space and you're in the Bethesda area, the Chevy Chase area,

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and you can find out all you need to know at launchworkplaces.com, or you can call 240, 86714 for a free two-day trial, if you mentioned my name. Again, fully furnished offices, they've got conference rooms, co-working desks, high-speed internet, complimentary drinks, a cafe, free parking, and plenty of it, and 24-7 access. 240, 86714, or launchworkplaces.com. And before we get to Andy, just a reminder asking all of you really helpful. If you haven't rated and reviewed us on iTunes, please do that really helps us on our advertising front.

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notice a couple of people, and I think I reached out to you yesterday, Aaron, that it was downloading late yesterday from Apple Podcasts. And I've noticed we've gotten a couple of Google Play people that listen on Google Play that are getting it later than typical. We've mentioned it to our platform company, and we don't have as much control over that, but we can certainly pass on that message. All right, let's bring in Andy Poland to finish up this Friday show. I haven't talked to Andy in a few weeks. We've been busy with the draft and some other things. But, you know, I know you had something that you wanted to discuss about Bobby

Bethard, which we'll get to in a moment. But I was thinking about you, you know, this morning, you know, after we talked last night about doing something today. And I'm like, I want to have a conversation with you about Thaisman's jersey number and Dwayne Haskins. And, you know, I'll get your opinion. in a moment and I'll share with you mine during the course of the week, but I was sent the following radio call into Grant and Danny on your station, 1067, The Fan, which I thought was wildly

entertaining. Somebody tweeted this to me. And it was a guy from Long Island who called in, clearly a Redskins fan, who wanted to weigh in on Thysman and the number, you know, debate from earlier this week, and here's how that call went. This is why the Redskins are the Redskins. The numbers should be retired, and it's really not that complicated. You put Joe Beisman, who was a Super Bowl MVP, and the first quarterback to win a Super Bowl for this franchise, where he's got to take a call from a mid-first-round pick asking for his number.

That is buffoonery. Okay? Nobody can call up the New York Yankees and ask them for Mickey Mantle's phone number or Mickey Mantle's number because he's Mickey Mantle. Okay? The number. Garrell Green's number. Our not take, guys, flat. You know, it's so funny because I'm going to tell you right now what my take was.

I'm not a Jersey guy. I'm not typically moved by these discussions. I mean, I did a lot on it because it was a top. and I guess I would prefer for them to just simplify it and say, we got some retired jerseys and everything else is available. And I also think it's the organization's call, not Joe's call. I don't think they should put him in that spot, in that awkward spot. Now, this guy, I mean, the Sean Taylor, we shouldn't have a New York giant safety,

you know, asking for that jersey. When he said it that way about Sean Taylor, I actually felt in that moment, God damn it, he's right. I mean, you can't just give out, and I couldn't have cared less. And if we see Dwayne Haskins wearing number seven in the opener against the Eagles, I don't think I'm going to be that emotional about it, but sometimes you hear a take from a caller or another show host, and you're like, you know what, maybe I do feel a little bit that way.

Now, you can't retire all the numbers that he wants to retire. I mean, he forgot the big ones, like Sonny and Rigo and, I don't even think he mentioned Art Monk, but you can't retire everybody's number because you'd have no numbers left. But what's your – I was curious as to what you thought about this debate earlier in the week. Well, first of all, Zizman was not a Super Bowl MVP. Riggins was the MVP of that Super Bowl, and he's not in the Hall of Fame. But I do agree that Zizman has put in a very difficult position when a rookie calls up and says, I'd like to wear your number because if Joe says, well, no, I don't want you to do that.

like the bad guy. So, you know, it's a no win for Joe. I agree on that. As far as numbers go, yeah, it's upsetting to me when I see some slob wearing 66 out there for Jacoby and got, didn't Tyler Palumbus or somebody like that? Catalina wore Grimm's number, didn't he? I think so. Yeah, whatever. But, you know, you look at those and you go, that's ridiculous. But, you know, like the Cowboys, Michael Irvin wore 88. There's Bryant 88. You know, so I don't know.

It was Drew Pearson's number first. Yeah, and Pearson's not a Hall of Famer, but, you know, the point is that they don't do that. Now, if I'm Haskins' father, and I'm old enough to be his father, I would say to him, you're putting yourself in a tough position. I think you're going to be great, but this is going to be something else that the fans are going to say, whoa, wait a minute, that guy put himself out there to be the next Joe Seismet and he's far from it. Also, when he said the league done messed up, that's another thing

that's putting undue pressure on himself. So I would advise him, if I were his father, don't wear it. You're putting yourself, I think, in a very difficult position for that. Yeah, I think that's a really logical response. But your first one is the most important one. And this is what I emphasized too. I don't think Joe should, I don't think it's Joe's call. Right. And part of the reason it's not his call is because you don't want to put him in that awkward position of having to say, no, I really don't want somebody to wear my number. It doesn't matter who it is. You know, and here's the other thing. I mean, there are guys that don't really care. You know, I don't, I guess that, you know, Rigo might say, I don't really care.

you know, maybe Riggle might want the guy to write him a check for it. But other than that, you know, and that's his legacy is for the organization, and actually in some cases the fans to protect, the fans that remember, you know, to sort of protect. So that's the only part of it that I guess I was troubled by. But again, like, you know, I try to picture how I'll feel watching Dwayne Haskins roll out in number seven in the open. or at Philadelphia, and it's like, I don't think it'll really upset me that much. To me, this is not the most controversial number story we've had. I remember.

Bobby Mitchell? Yes. When Furia trotted out in his first minicamp, Danny Wharf were wearing seven, and Shane Matthews wearing nine, and he acted like it was no big deal, and everybody went nuts over it. And Sonny actually told Shane Matthews, look, I don't care if you wear nine, but I don't think the fan base is going to like it. you're going to put yourself in a bad position. Right.

And ultimately, they decide. Now, my understanding is the only reason those guys even went out on the field with those numbers is because Jay Brunetti, who is the long-time equipment guy, was gone from the organization. He would have protected those numbers because he was working for them when they won their Super Bowls. But anyway, those guys went out there. That season, though, there was a backup tight end named Leonard Stevens who wore 49. Yeah. And 49 is for Hall of Fame or Bobby Mitchell is not just the Hall of Fame.

but one of the most significant athletes of the history of the NFL because he broke the color line for the redskins. He was the first African-American player that they had of any significance, and the first one, you know, since the team had come in in the 1930s. And he later said that that was the last straw for him. And he retired after that season. He said that was the last insult. And he said he didn't want to say anything because he would have put Leonard Stevens in a bad position. And he didn't want to do that.

And I remember that season, I sent several calls to Carl Swanson, who was the PR guy, and I said, this is wrong. He should not be wearing 49, never heard anything else about it. So I think the organization, in some regards, wanted that to happen. I think they wanted Bobby Mitchell to leave, and I think that insult was done on purpose. I don't know that I would go that far. I'm not disputing the way you feel because you were there and you were working in the media and you were much more inside at that time than I was because I wasn't working in the media,

but I remember being upset by it. And I remember the whole Spurrier with 7 and 9 and knew that somebody, you know, it was the old ball coach. He didn't know. And somebody was going to, you know, set him straight on it, which they did. But, you know, it's funny, if you were to retire, I think the Redskins have to get to that point where they just decide, look, we're going to retire jerseys.

We're going to add a couple to 33, which is, the only retired jersey. And I, you know, I don't know what sort of hard and fast rule they'll create. Does he have to be a Hall of Famer? Because Chris Hamburger's number 55, he was a senior, you know, induction into the Hall of Fame. Does that qualify as a retired jersey? I mean, on some level, I think we as Redskin fans, for the most part, could come up with 90% of them. You know, like 7, 9, 28, 42, 44, 49, you know, you know, after that, you could do 43 last round. 81's, of course, I'm talking about the ones that are absolute givens.

To me, like 7, 9, 28, 48, 42, 44, 49, 70, and 81. You know, Jacoby's not a Hall of Famer. Grimm is, I would have no problem with making Grimm's number, a retired number. But Larry Brown's not a Hall of Famer, even though he was a player of the year in 72. Chris Hamburger is, but it was a senior thing. I think if we sat around, we would all agree on 90% of them, and then you'd debate the other 10%. Right, and then Thaisman's in that gray area. He also mentioned...

If Thaisman's in the gray area for you, I understand why he is, but it's also a unique non-hall-of-fame player for this franchise. But you could also say that about Larry Brown, who didn't win a Super Bowl, but was the offensive MVP at the league that year. I don't think Larry Brown is at the same level of Thaisman, and I was the biggest Larry Brown fan as a kid. But I think he's a notch below Thysman.

Thysman was our first Super Bowl quarterback. He also was a league MVP in 83. Right. But again, I mean, if you want to throw him into the great area, we'd all agree on number nine. Then we'd have to decide whether or not we think Doug Williams at 17 because of the significance of him winning that Super Bowl. But, you know, Billy Kilmer was a better franchise quarterback for a longer period of time.

You know, you could argue. But 928, 42 is a lock, Charlie Taylor, Rigo's a lock, Bobby Mitchell's a lock, Art Monk's a lock. And do you put Sam Huff into the lock category? No, no, I was just going to say because Sam... Because of that he's a giant first? Yeah, he's a Giant. He's a Hall of Famer for what he did as a Giant. He's a good player for the race game. And then you've got 21 in the conversation about 21.

Well, I think 21 is important, and the name escapes me, but the Giants have a retired number for a player who was killed in World War II. And I think a special circumstance like that, just the tragedy of the whole thing. I think honoring 21 that way would be the way to go. I don't have a problem with that. But do you agree that it's time for them to just retire some numbers or decide not to retire any numbers? Yeah, but take it out of the hands. The Cowboys don't retire numbers. Right.

Well, I don't think anybody's going to work 12. But the key is don't put Joe in a position like that. I agree. That was a no win for Joe. Yeah, even though he seemed inclined genuinely to do it because he liked Askins and he's very bullish. Yeah. But if he says no. and say, oh, look at that washed up guy, you know, bitter, blah, that, that, that, you know.

And you do say no to Danny Wharfell, because Danny Wharfill had already proved he sucked. This kid made me turn out to be good. Yeah, you just, you've got to, as an organization, protect the legacies and not simultaneously put these players into a position where the decision is theirs. It shouldn't be. All right. You had something else you wanted to talk to me about. Yeah, this weekend will be the 30th anniversary since Bobby Bethard resigned as general manager of the Redskins. Now, a couple of weeks earlier, he had pulled off a very good, a couple of really good draft day deals.

He got Ernest Biner, who was only 26 at the time, straight up for Mike Oliphon, who played a year for the Redskins out of Puget Sound. That proved to be a huge pickup as Biner was a key player when they won the Super Bowl a couple years ago. They also got Gerald Riggs from the Falcons. he was going to be the next to the Big R-Backs, Rigo, followed by Rogers, followed by Riggs. They gave up their second rounder and a first rounder in 1990. As far as a draft, when it was kind of a typical better draft,

he got Mark Schlarith in the 10th round and then swung and missed on a few guys. But he had established himself, along with Joe Gibbs, as a great general manager, and they seemingly were an incredible team. I mean, they seemingly had worked together well because their number one draft pick that year had gone in the Wilbur Marshall deal. Remember the Redskins gave up two first rounders, and they agreed on that. They were united on that, and they went to Jack King Cook, and Cook signed off on it. So it was an incredible shock when he just said, that's it, I'm out, I'm leaving.

And there were sources who said that it was more difficult to deal with Gibbs at that point, that Gibbs was getting more power in the organization, but it just seemed odd timing on that. and Charlie Casily took over. And reading back on it, it's interesting. I'm just talking about Bobby Mitchell. I didn't think he was going to be a factor for that job because at that time he was doing more business-related things with the Redskins, public relations,

that sort of stuff not involved as much in players as Charlie was. But his name came up, and Tony Kornizer wrote, it would have been intriguing to see Bobby Mitchell so long and so loyal a Redskin advanced to GM. And then Michael Wilburne. Bon had a quote from Mitchell who said that, you know, hopefully sometime in these final 10 years of this decade, I'll get a chance to succeed or fail like anyone else. Maybe before long, somewhat of color will get this position. And he had hoped to become the first, but it didn't

quite happen. And, you know, that kind of got swept under the rug over the years. But that later became a story when he left the organization and said, you know, he felt slighted by not giving or been given a real opportunity to get the job. Was Ozzy Newsom the first African-American general manager in the NFL? Yeah, I think so. With the, yeah, he was when he took over with the Ravens. Wow. It took until what, 2000?

2001 and whatever it was? No, the Ravens came in 1996, so he was like player personnel for a while. Yeah, but he wasn't a general manager right away. Yeah, yeah, so he became, I guess. I don't even know if he was the GM of that first. He was, I think he was in Cleveland first as an executive. Yeah, came with the team. And then when they moved.

But, you know, the Beatherd trade that you mentioned, Biner for Aliphant was, you know, it was highway robbery. But there was no better trade than the one that happened the year before when he sent Schrader out to L.A. for Jim Lachey. Oh, yeah, that was fabulous. That was just such an awesome trade. You know, it's so funny because, you know, Jay Schrader and Doug Williams were, the two quarterbacks during that era. And the fans loved Doug Williams. The media loved Doug. Doug Williams was the darling. And this was even before, you know, he went on the postseason run. And Jay Schrader was just a prickly SOB that nobody in the media, and I don't even think the fans enjoyed

watching Jay Schrader play. So when that trade took place, it was like, finally he's gone. And look who we got back. Well, remember that season, Schrader wanted to get traded. Yes, he did. They were coming off the Super Bowl. Yeah, and they were going to start. So, yeah. Yeah, so he became a pain in the ass, and I guess was eventually demoted to third string,

which made the trade even more amazing, because Al had to know they were going to unload them for whatever they could get, and they wind up unloading them for what turned out to be the premier left tackle in the game for about four or five years. And it was really amazing. But, you know, the funny thing about Schrader, this was several years ago, Tom Leverro and I were doing the Mickey Steel Golf Tournament,

the one that they have at Queenstown and a whole bunch of X Redskins come home. We're sitting in a break, and we see this guy waving at us from about 10 yards away, and he's a big guy. It looks like a former lineman, shaved head, and we wave at him, and we wave him over to the table, and he goes, Hi, I'm Jay Schrader. And he sat down, and we had a really engaging conversation with him. So, you know, time changes a lot of things.

Oh, my God. I'll never forget. I think I've told you this story, but maybe I haven't. I think I've told Tommy before on our show. But I was, my first job out of Maryland was working for Buck at Channel 5. You know, I worked there for two years before I got out of the business altogether. And I was at the Redskins training camp for two straight summers in Carlisle. And, you know, I, we were told that,

that Jay Schrader was going to be in sort of a media scrum, and all of the rumors were flying about him being traded. And I think it was Charlie Dayton, was the Redskins PR guy at the time. And he said to everybody before, you cannot ask Jay about anything involving a trade. And I remember thinking to myself, what do you mean? We can't ask him. That's all anybody wants to know.

And so I'm sitting there and I'm, you know, I'm 23 years old or whatever and 22 years old, whatever it was. And I'm sitting there and nobody's asking. And Buck and Ernie had sent me over there with a cameraman just to get the Jay Schrader sound. And no one's asking them. And I didn't know you were really supposed to listen to the PR guy. So finally, I just said, Jay, what do you make about these trade rumors? Are you going to get traded? and everybody looked to me and Charlie Dayton.

I think that's what his name was. I think it was Charlie. Oh, my God. And they went to Ernie and Buck, and they were said, oh, this kid, he's, and Ernie and Buck just said, good job, good job, because I got this stare-down from Schrader in my direction, and he didn't really say anything and didn't answer it, was great video at the time.

So they were happy with me. But that summer was really interesting. interesting because it really was, you know, what are you going to do with Schrader? What can you get for him? And he did go on to start in an AFC championship game for the Raiders against the bills that they lost 51 to 3. But Lechet, you know, Andy, the Lechay years here, Jake's the greatest left tackle in the history of the organization. But Lechay's years, if Lechay had had a longer career, he would have been a Hall of Famer. He was perhaps the most talented offensive lineman that this franchise maybe has ever had in terms of just talent. I would liken him as a lineman to Gail Sayers.

Now, maybe at his peak he wasn't as great as Gail Sayers, but the flash of four or five years of being the dominant guy. Yeah, and just a sweetheart of a guy, too. Yeah, he was. Really amazing. I mean, I've run into a bunch of times since he's retired too. and he was such a tactician and just smart. I mean, I think that was part of it. And a great athlete, you know, they say that those guys who are so good at that position have great feet,

and obviously he had that. He was a three-time, first-team all-pro-left tackle in Washington. 89, 90, and 91, he was a first-team all-pro, not Pro Bowl, not a popularity contest. He was a first-team all-pro left tackle for three straight years. And he is on the list of the 70, or whatever the list is now, of the greatest Redskins of all time. But ultimately, I guess his career, which I think was a 10-year career. But, you know, I would, I don't know how often we've talked about Jim Lachey, but I think he's a borderline Hall of Fame guy.

You've got to put Jacoby in first. Well, I understand. No, no, no, I'm not suggesting that. you don't put Jake in first, but Lachet had, you know, he had a 10-year career. And by the way, he was a pro bowler in Oakland, too, or in Los Angeles when the Raiders were there, too. All right. How you doing? I'm doing okay.

Yeah, hanging in there. You're on this weekend on JFK all weekend long? Tom is in Italy. Yeah, he's in Italy, right. Yes, so I'm working with young Nick Asher tomorrow. Oh, good. So we'll tune in Saturday morning and Sunday morning for Andy, and you can listen to him on WTOP all weekend. as well.

I'll catch up with you soon. Thanks for doing this. All right. Take care, Kevin. All right. Thanks to Andy for doing that. I'm not into the derby, just so if anybody's wondering

why I haven't mentioned the Kentucky Derby. I just, I couldn't name one horse, got into it last year with the Triple Crown winner, and there was a day, you know, 15, 20 years ago where I was into all of this stuff.

But I just couldn't care less. There's really one thing that I'm, well, two things. that I'm looking forward to watching. I'm in a golf pool, so go Ricky Fowler and at the Wells Fargo. And I am looking forward to seeing Golden State in Houston tomorrow night. It's probably the first of the playoff games that I've been really interested in to see how Houston responds. They're an early three and a half point favorite tomorrow night against the Warriors in game three. I think Golden State's going to win one of those, these two games in Houston and close it out four games to one. I think

I think I mentioned this earlier in the show, but if I didn't, I think I may have mentioned it earlier in the show, but an amazing stat, or an interesting stat, is that Kevin Durant's taken 22 mid-range jumpers in the first two games of this series. The whole Rockets team has only taken nine mid-range jumpers in the whole series. You do not beat Golden State with one-man iso ball or two-man pick-and-roll, pick-and-pop. It's just not going to happen. I don't see it. The other NBA playoff series. I'm actually, I want Toronto to even this series up because I picked them, but I'm more concerned after last night, as I mentioned earlier. And not much interest in Portland, Denver, although watching Damien Lillard is fun.

And I think Boston's going to, I think Boston's going to win this series. I think they're going to win a long series against Milwaukee. It'll be interesting to see how Janus plays because, and that games tonight, two games tonight, you got Boston, Milwaukee, and Denver Portland, but see how Janus plays. He played a great second half, but now he's got to go on the road for a series where they got to win one of those games in Boston. All right, thanks to Aaron, thanks to Mike Shanahan, thanks to Andy Poland. Have a great weekend back on Monday.