The Kevin Sheehan Show - More on Mitch

Episode Date: March 10, 2023

Kevin today with Andy Pollin who worked for Mitchell Rales when WTEM-570 was launched in 1992 as DC's first 24-7 sports-talk radio station. Liz Clarke/Washington Post jumped on to talk Commanders' sale and to discuss her decision to retire after an incredible 25-year career at the Post. Kevin also talked about Maryland's win last night in the Big10 Tourney and recapped some of the NFL news of the day.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Cheehan Show. Here's Kevin. The show today, presented by MyBooky, go to MyBooky.orgie. Use my promo code, Kevin, D.C. And once you wager your deposit amount one time, you're eligible if you use my promo code,

Kevin D.C. at MyBooky.org to cash out immediately. Most books don't let you do that. MyBooky is. Now it's perfect for March Madness. If you just want to bet the tournament, go to my bookie.ag. Use my promo code, Kevin D.C. You know, you don't have to make one wager. You just have to wager the amount of your deposit.

You know, if you deposit $500, that could be $5, $100 bets. That could be $10.50 bets. But once you've wagered that total amount, you're eligible to cash out. Obviously, if you're up and winning, and it's perfect for, events like March Madness. By the way, at MyBooky right now, Maryland is only a one-point underdog against Indiana tonight in the quarterfinals of the Big Ten tournament. Man, that seems short. A little bit of a smell test pick on the Terps tonight. MyBooky.ag use my promo code Kevin DC. Two guests on the show. Andy Pollan's going to jump on with us for just a few minutes

to tell us what he remembers about working for Mitchell Rails. Mitch Rails is a co-investor, according to all reports. Adam Schaefter, we talked about this news yesterday with Tommy. Mitch Rails, who, along with his brother, Stephen, founded Sports Talk Radio 570. Back in 1992, Andy was their first hire. to become the sports director at 570. 570 eventually became 980. The Rails brothers, by the way, sold, you know, the sports talk station to Clear Channel at the time, and I think made a bunch of money at the time. And we'll talk to Andy about his memories of working with the Rails brothers,

Mitchell Rails in particular. And then after Andy, Liz Clark will be on this show with us for two reasons. One, we will talk to Liz about Mitch Rails. We'll talk to her about the state of the sale. The Post has obviously done a lot of reporting on it. Liz has been a big part of it with Mark Maskey and Nikki Javala. And then we'll talk a little bit about Liz. Liz is retiring next month after 25 years at the Washington Post, 37 years as a journalist.

Liz has been a favorite among not only readers of the Washington Post Sports Section for many years, but has been one of the people in town in sports media that has been very well respected and very well liked. And of course, being a part of Tony's radio show all of those years, Liz and I many times sat in together on Tony's show, and we at the station got to know Liz very well. She's great at what she's done over the years as a reporter and writer. So it'll be sad to see her leave and not get to read her anymore, but I'm sure she will be off to bigger and better things and probably things that are more fun than being on deadline

as much as she has over the course of her life. So we'll talk to Liz about the sale. We'll talk to her about her career to a certain extent. She doesn't really want to talk about herself. That's Liz. But we will get to some of the stuff and find out why she's retiring right now. I did want to start before we get to Andy with basketball. Marilyn beat Minnesota last night.

You know, it wasn't the cleanest of games. They were outstanding defensively, as they really have been for much of the year. They weren't so good in the second half against Penn State in the season finale on Sunday. In fact, I thought it was probably the worst defensive half they had had all year and they blew a 15-point second-half lead. And so that was that. But they beat Minnesota last night for the third time. They've actually not lost to Minnesota since entering the Big Ten. They're 10-0 against Minnesota since entering the Big Ten.

They won three against Minnesota. of this year the worst team in the Big Ten. And last night was not much of a sweat at all. They got in some foul trouble in the first half. They forced two 10-second violations. You know, it's rare that you see one, you know, a week. And they got two and a half last night with their full court pressure. It was an interesting game in that Dante Scott, who had just one point against Penn State,

had four threes in the first half, 16 points in the first half. the first half, finished with 20, banged up his knee a little bit, so hopefully that'll be okay. And Jemir Young, who has really been the best player on the team all season long, I think, got a little bit robbed on the All-Big 10 team. I think he certainly deserved serious consideration for the first team he made the second team. But he had maybe the worst offensive half we've seen from him in a long time. He had just one point in the first half and missed a ton of shots. He had 14 in the second half, also added six rebounds, three assists, and two steals in the game. And Maryland won by 16.

And tonight they will face Indiana in the final game of the day in the Big Ten quarterfinals. They beat Indiana pretty handily 66 to 55, and their only meeting against Indiana this year. And that was back in College Park, and Indiana shot poorly. and their freshman star, Jalen Hood-Shafino, who was the freshman of the year in the Big Ten, was one for 14 in that game. Before I saw the point spread early this morning, I really thought this was going to be a difficult game for Maryland. Now the point spread makes me believe that the Terps have a really good chance to win this game,

the public all over Indiana with the short number. But Indiana's played well recently. look, they were playing pretty well at the time that they lost to Maryland. I mean, they had won like five in a row when they came to College Park last month and lost 66 to 55. And then after losing to Maryland, they won three more in a row. So really, they won eight out of nine with one loss, and that was an 11-point loss in College Park. Since that stretch, they lost to Northwestern by two, lost to Michigan State on the road, and they got blown out by eye. Iowa over the weekend in the final weekend of the year.

And that was in Bloomington. I mean, it was a mismatch over the weekend. Iowa beat Indiana 90 to 68. And then Iowa yesterday lost to Ohio State in the second round of the Big Ten tournament. Ohio State, by the way, all of a sudden has won two games in this tournament. They had no chance of making the NCAA tournament heading into this thing. They had gotten hot at the end of the year and beat Maryland. among a few other teams.

They had beaten Illinois heading into that Maryland game. Now they've won two in a row. They get Michigan State this afternoon. By the time you listen to this, that may be over. But I still think Indiana, even off of the Iowa loss, is going to be a tough game for the Terps. But Maryland's only been to the Big Ten semis twice since entering the Big Ten, both times losing to Michigan State in semifinal games.

And the way the bracket sets up, If the Terps win tonight against Indiana, they would face in the semifinals tomorrow in Chicago, either Penn State or Northwestern. You know, they've already beaten Northwestern. They blew a 15-point, 16-point lead in the first half and lost to Penn State. I mean, they would be a win over Northwestern or Penn State away from their first Big Ten final. I know these conference tournaments don't mean much, you know, any more. But I think when you're in these big leagues, the ACC, the Big East, the Big Ten, the SEC,

I think these conference tournaments really do mean something if you're a big fan of a certain team. And I'd love to see Maryland do well in the Big Ten tournament. Look, you know, the Turgeon discussion, and I'll keep it short, but the mic drop for those that wanted Turgeon gone was he didn't win enough in March. He didn't win enough in the NCAA tournament, and he didn't win enough in the Big Ten tournament. So it would be nice for Maryland to kind of make a mark in the Big Ten tournament. They were twice ACC tournament champions, and many times they were in the finals of the ACC tournament over the years. They have yet to make it to a Big Ten final.

Should be an interesting matchup. Maryland's going to have to rebound well against Indiana, and their superstar, Trace Jackson Davis, who not only is one of the best big men in the Big Ten, he's one of the best big men in America. Boy, the theme to the Big Ten basketball season was size, center, the center position. Hunter Dickinson at Michigan, Zach Edie at Purdue, who might be the player of the year in college basketball. You had Jackson Davis at Indiana. And then, by the way, you've got to mention Ju-Ju Reese, Julian Reese.

for Maryland, who's one of the most improved big men in America, really, and certainly in the Big Ten. I mean, if you saw him play last year, saw him play even earlier this year, what a massive improvement. He's become a force, and he is a big reason why Marilyn will be in the bracket when it comes out on Sunday night. Speaking of the bracket on Sunday night, North Carolina is not going to be in it, and that'll mean that North Carolina will become the first team in modern college basketball history since the field really started to expand in the 70s to be ranked number one preseason and not make the tournament. Carolina is not making it. They returned four starters from the team that went to the national championship game and

lost to Kansas last year. Rough year for Hubert Davis after a phenomenal first year taking over for Roy Williams last year. I mean, you could argue that the two biggest wins in recent college basketball memory were Hubert Davis and North Carolina's wins over Duke last year in the season finale at Cameron Indoor and Coach Kay's final game and then again in the final four. But yeah, Carolina is not going to be in the tournament. That's amazing. A weird year in college basketball. and if I haven't mentioned this, I'll mention it right now. I think there are 15 to 20 teams that can win the whole thing. I think there are 25 to maybe 28 teams legitimately that can go to the final four.

We will have a lot of bracket talk next week. Before we get to Andy, just a couple of quick NFL notes. I'll start with this. Dallas is restructuring Dak Prescott's contract. He was due to count $49.13 million against the calf. in 2023. He's now going to count $27 million against the cap. The Cowboys were $18 million over the cap before today. After today, they are $12 million under the cap because they also restructured Zach Martin's contract, their right guard. But listen to this as it relates to

Dak Prescott's contract. So he was due to count $49.13 million this year against the cap. That second, by the way, only to, of course, Deshawn Watson's deal. And now he'll count just 27 million against the cap in 2023. Next year, he's due to count $59 million

against the salary cap. They'll, of course, do something about it between now and then, probably after next season. But remember, Dak Prescott, there are a lot of people in Dallas losing faith. but it's too bad because they signed him to that four-year $160 million deal three years ago.

This will be the third year of that deal. So they got to play it out at least through this year with him. Also, by the way, Adam Thielen, Adam Thielen, he said, got released in Minnesota. Nine years, he'll catch on somewhere else. He was not the number two guy behind Jefferson for the Vikings. That really was more KJ. Osborne. or the tight end Hawkinson that they signed or that they traded for at the trade deadline. But Thielen Man, a legend in Minnesota.

Grew up there, went to Minnesota State, was a Viking for nine years, somebody will sign him. Brock Purdy and San Francisco off that UCL repair, they're saying that he can start throwing in three months. I don't know if that means at an NFL level, an NFL starting quarterback level, but that would still be three months prior to the regular season starting. So I think that's encouraging news for Brock Purdy. By the way, Philadelphia is letting Darius Slay seek out a trade. He had a great year last year, but they are trying to figure it out with respect to their roster

so that they can give Jalen Hertz the big contract extension. And then one last piece of football news. Otis Taylor passed away at the age of 80 years old. Otis Taylor was a great wide receiver in the NFL in the state. 60s and in the 70s. And my earliest memories of watching football were the George Allen Redskins teams of 1971 and on. 71's really the first year I remember watching football and watching the Redskins in particular. But Otis Taylor and those Kansas City Chiefs teams of the early 70s, they were a glamour team. The Steelers came along three, four years later and started to start.

to win all those Super Bowls, really from the mid-70s until the late 70s. They won four during that decade. The last two coming in 78 and 79. The first two coming in 75 and 76. And the Chiefs in the early 70s, remember they played in Super Bowl 1, lost to the Packers, played in Super Bowl 4, beat the Vikings as a big underdog the year after Joe Namath and the Jets beat the upset in NFL history. Super Bowl 4 was also a massive upset. The chiefs were 12 and a half point underdogs against the NFL Vikings. Otis Taylor caught a touchdown pass in that game. That's the Hank Stram 65 toss power trap boys. You know, let's matriculate the ball down the field. Otis Taylor was on the senior list this year, but failed to make it through the final round of

for the Hall of Fame. He passed away at the age of 80 due to complications involving Parkinson's and other things. I just remember the Chiefs as one of those first glamour teams and Otis Taylor being a big part of it, number 89, big, lanky, wide receiver, great player. I actually, before this podcast started, I just assumed he was in the Hall of Fame. He was a two-time pro bowler, a two-time All-Pro. But remember, most of his great years were in the NFL. Half of his career was in the AFL before the merger. But he is a memorable player in NFL history for those Chiefs teams that got matched up at 4 o'clock against the Raiders. You know, after watching the Redskins beat the Eagles at 1 o'clock on CBS, you flipped it over to NBC, and there was Kurt Gowdy and Al D. Regattis

calling Chiefs Raiders. That's the way it was. Otis Taylor, rest in peace. Tommy will probably have something to say about him next week because Tommy wrote a column a few years ago about all of those Hall of Famers that played on that Chiefs defense. All right, let's talk to Andy. Let's let Andy jump on right now. And the reason for having Andy on is that Andy was the first hire made

by Mitch and Stephen Rails when they launched the first all-sports, hours a day, seven days a week, radio station in D.C. back in May of 1992. They hired Andy. Andy worked for Mitchell Rails during those years when the station launched on WTEM AM 570. Andy corrected me on Twitter yesterday because they said it was 980. It launched on 570. I do remember that, but I thank you for reminding me of that. But Andy was a part of these guys launching a radio station. They were, I think, in the early days of the Danahirt Corporation. And Mitchell Rails, Andy, as you know, is part of the Josh Harris bid.

We think, you know, a minority, a potential minority owner, not the lead investor, but he will be a part of the Josh Harris group if they are to buy the Washington team that we have loved our entire lives. So anyway, I was thinking about you. I appreciate you jumping on. Tell us about Mitchell Rails. What do you remember? Well, actually, I was not the first hire. Among their first hires was somebody by the name of Scott Meyer.

And Scott Meyer had been the general manager of WFAA when they really, you know, rocketed to the top. Yeah, in New York when they were rolling with Mimas. And Jeff Smolian owned that station. And Smolian bought the Seattle Mariners. and he ran he's probably the only guy to ever lose money on a baseball team. And he ran into some financial trouble with the Mariners and had to make some cutbacks on his other businesses. So Meyer was one of the cutbacks. And it's a long story, but Scott Meyer, who had to lay me off some years earlier in a cutback at WFAN,

contacted me and said that he was working on a project where I might not have to move from New York and might be interested in doing some work there part-time. And he wouldn't tell me where it was. And this went on for, you know, a month or so. I had to submit a tape, even though he, you know, do what I sounded like because somebody else above my job might have to approve it. And things go on. And then one night I get a call from my mother.

And my mother says, hey, it's just been reported that there's going to be this new sports radio station in Washington, and they're going to have the Redskins. And I go, whoa, Kalabunga. You know, I have no. I have no idea where this is going to be, and now I find out it's going to be in Washington, D.C. So, you know, long story, come back, and, yes, it started by Stephen and Mitchell Rails, who are two local guys grew up in Bethesda, both went to Whitman, and they had started a company called Danahar, which at that point was already a very big company,

not as big as it is now. And their reported wealth at the time was like $800 million apiece, which, you know, 30-some years ago was a lot of money. Anyway, they had seen the success of WFAN, and they had already owned WGMS, AM, and FM. And, you know, already the AM was pretty much, you know, non-existent because people who listen to classical music, listen to it on FM. Right. So they said, let's take the AM signal and turn it into sports. Well, 570 was not 50,000-watt clear channel like WFAN. It was, it was, you know, small potatoes.

But these guys thought big, and they did some research, and they said, if you want to be successful, you have to have the Redskins. The Redskins have been on WMAL for like 40 years. And Steve Rails, who's a very, very impressive guy, obviously, and said great success. he managed to wrangle away the rights from WMAL after all those years, and the station was launched. And, you know, if you ask me if I know Mitch Rails, we probably had 10, 12 conversations over the years. To me, the way it appeared, it was Steve who was leading that project.

I don't know how they worked on other projects, but when there would be group settings, Steve Rails would address the group, and then Mitch may add a thing or two. But generally, he was seen as the lead guy. And in the early days, they thought it was really cool to hang out at a sports radio station. And we had pick up basketball games that they would play in. We had a team that would play, like, you know, high school faculties and things like that. They played on that. So we'd see them a lot.

And, you know, and they were, like, really into the whole thing. And I remember one day I was on the air in the early days, and mistakenly on a reset, I identified myself as anti-Pol and Sports Radio 66 WFAS. And here's, you know, how long ago it was, being as wealthy as he was, he had a car phone. So he called the hotline at the station just to bust my chops over that. Yeah. But, you know, and then, you know, as time went on, they had accumulated these radio stations throughout the country. and because their businessmen and radio wasn't what they did,

they flipped the 16 radio stations that they acquired and quadrupled their money or maybe even more and got out of the radio business. And I was pretty much, you know, the last contact I had with them. I seen both of them on occasion over the years. The last time I saw Mitch was probably 15 years ago. It was before a Wizards playoff game and wandering around the concourse with my son,

and I see him, and he looks like any guy you might see in Home Depot on a Saturday. If you saw him walking around, you'd never guess that he was a billionaire, you know, just the guy wearing a pair of jeans and sneakers and a sweatshirt and a jacket, and I went up to him, and, you know, and he remembered me, and we talked for a couple minutes, and I had my son with me introduced him, and my son said, is he rich? not to his faith but after we left

I said yeah he's pretty rich he might be able to buy this arena so and that was it but that's you know that's really the extent of whatever relationship I had with him I don't think you know I could say that I really know him that well

but as a businessman I'm very impressed with with what he and his brother were able to do so when you write the book about 980 you know will will they be the best owners of the station that you ever worked for?

Yeah, I mean, we had, you know, various companies. I would certainly put them ahead of Snyder. Yeah, over at zero. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I'll say another thing, you know, and this will probably address, you know, whatever they do in terms of hiring a real general manager or, you know, however they run their team. when they had these radio stations, they went and hired the general manager of WCCO.

WCCO in Minneapolis at that time was one of the most successful stations in the country. It was run by Steve Goldstein, who grew up in Minneapolis, went to school at the University of Minnesota, had his professional life in Minneapolis, and he got married there, had his family there. He wasn't leaving. And so it had to be something that was really big for him. to make that move. And he did. And as part of the deal, he got equity. So when all those stations were sold and made a lot of money. But that's the way they roll. Like once they start to, at least they did with the radio, you know, once they started to launch it, they didn't just say, oh, you know,

who's a guy who has some radio experience in the market? Maybe he can run our stations. They went right to the top. They went right after the past. And they got them. They got them with the promise of equity once they sold. Right. You know, if we were asked about, you know, a potential owner of the commanders named Dan Snyder who owned a radio station, a sports talk radio station. You know what we would say? Have no idea. We never saw him.

He wasn't involved at all, which is a true story considering, it's a true story, but considering how involved he was in the football team, we were always surprised at that. I mean, there was no involvement. Nothing was ever said to us about what we can say, what we can't. say, you know, how it was run, how it wasn't run. Now, we could, and we're not going to do that here. We could certainly quibble over some of the people that were hired to run the station and the way they managed it, but that's for, you know, that's for your book down the road.

So somebody did tell me last night in having a few conversations with various people that Steve was actually the bigger sports fan and a huge Redskins fan. and they both were, but that Steve was definitely the more active guy in any of the sports stuff that they were involved in. Yeah, well, I would say personality-wise, Steve is more gregarious. That seemed to be the way that worked. And he's a few years older than Mitch, so maybe that dynamic played into it as well. But it just seemed like whenever there were any gatherings of radio stations, you know,

Christmas party, whatever, Steve would address the group. Got it. Mitch would occasionally, you know, say something to them, but, you know, he wasn't, he was, he was okay with him running, which, you know, would probably be the arrangement if he, if he winds up with Harris, that Harris would be the lead guy, I would say. Yeah. I'd be very surprised if Mitch did. There's one, one little, a personal story on this at one of their Christmas parties at that time I was wearing glasses and I had 2400 vision. and he had had something called PRK, which was before laser surgery, for the LASIC surgery. Yeah. And it involved going to Toronto to have actual cuts made in your eye.

And so he had to spend three days in the hospital with some pain. And he did it. So after they sold the stations, he sent word that if I wanted to have that surgery, he was going to pay for it. Really? Yeah, he was going to send me to Toronto and pay for everything. And, you know, I kind of chickened out because of the pain. And then as it happened, like six months later, one of the sales guys at the station said, hey, you know, somebody wants to do your eyes and you can endorse it for free.

So that's how I did it. You did Lysick, yeah. Yeah, not as much pain and much faster and no hospital trip for that one. But, you know, he was ready to stroke a check for, you know, with expenses and everything. I'd have been, you know, 10 grand, but, you know, to him, I guess it's like lunch at Panera. I don't know. Yeah, exactly. All right.

Well, I mean, you, you're the only person I know that spent time working for them, you know, in a sports capacity. And so it's good to get your perspective and have you, you know, remember how it all came about. By the way, do you know, they sold the stations to Clear Channel? Clear Channel bought those stations. Do you remember what year that was? Well, it may have been clear channel. I'm trying to think, because I think there's something called AMFM that entered the picture. I thought maybe they went to AMFM before that, which was another radio company.

Okay. But I believe this happened about 1996 or so, and we did not move to 980 until 1998, if I'm not mistaken. So when it was sold, it was sold as 570. And I think the purchase by Clear Channel enabled that to happen so that we could make the move from 570, 980. I think that's the way that worked out. And they had hired Bennett Zier along the way, too. And they are guys, if they're holding three aces playing poker, they don't want you to know. Benazir is the opposite type.

And so he didn't last with them. And he came back in as the general manager after the sale to Clear Channel, if I have that right. Yeah. It was about that time. Right. Yeah, I had heard that they did very well in the quick turnaround, the launch of Sports Talk Radio and the exit of Sports Talk Radio, because at the time it was the loosening of the rules of how many stations

you could own in a marketplace, and that number expanded. And so some of the big radio companies like Clear Channel started buying up radio stations, and it was a land grab at that time. So if you owned, you know, a few stations and a big company like Clear Channel was coming to buy them, they were paying pretty much anything you wanted for them because they wanted the sticks. You know, they wanted the signals. So they got in at the right time, and they probably got out at the right time. And right, and when they bought in, they knew they were going to be in for law.

That's the way they roll. They studied the market. And there is, I guess it's already been reported, but I know this for a fact because Steve Brails told me this. When Peter Angelos bought the Orioles, they were investigating going into partnership with them, but they were interested in being part owners of the Orioles, and it didn't work out. So, you know, I wonder about this, too, you know, would this, be a taste for Mitch Rails, and if he really likes it, would he buy the Nats? Because the price

tag on them is a lot lower than it's going to be for the landers. Right. And it's more likely than not. I think we all assume that he is just going to be a minority partner in the offer with Josh Harris. Well, you know, another Whitman kid does well. All of them apparently do. Thank God he didn't go. Thank God he didn't go to BCC. Oh. No, but the story, and by the way, the story on how they partnered up, their father, Norman Rails, ran a very successful janitorial supply company.

Right. I've heard the story about him, yes. Apparently very impressive. Yeah, and I've met him too. They used to bring him around the station, too. Like, they had this new toy, you know, in 1992. Hey, Dad, look at this. All these guys sit around and talk sports off. And we got the Redskins away from WMAL, which, you know, which I remember very much because I was disappointed.

I think most Redskins fans were. We didn't want, we didn't want it switching to 570, which, by the way, was not as good of a signal as 630 was. Oh, right. Well, they had to simulcast it on WGMS because the signal just wasn't strong enough. But MAL fought that they had put up the proper blocking to prevent this from happening because they had extended Sonny Jurgensen's contract a year past when they had the rights. And so they attempted to sell the games with just Sam and Frank and sponsors were hesitant. So they made a deal.

And Sonny wanted to do the games, obviously. He didn't want to be left outside. He's collecting money, but he wanted to do the games. So they worked out a deal that Sonny would do the games, and as soon as they were over, he would do a post-game show with Ken Beatrice on WM.A. And that's so they got it done. But back to the rails, I think there's four of them, four rails brothers.

I actually know one of them a little bit, Josh, who's involved in some of the charity stuff that I do. And all of them, I'm told, were given a million dollars when they graduated from college. And Steve and Mitch partnered up with their million apiece and launched DeNehre. That's how they got going. You know what?

You know what? A little seed money there, but they made it happen. Yeah, it's nice to be born on that base. All right. Thanks for doing this. Appreciate it. Yeah, yeah, thank you. And I hope it happens because I do have a lot of respect for Mitch Rails.

I think this would be wonderful if it actually happens. All right. Good information. We'll talk soon. All right, talk it. All right, let's get to Liz Clark. She'll join us next right after these words from a few of our sponsors. Yay.

Guess who's on with me today? My friend Liz Clark from the Washington Post. We haven't, for whatever reason, because maybe it's because I just don't care about tennis anymore. And, you know, all the reporting, it's you and Maskey and Nikki and everybody mixed together. But I feel like I haven't, other than running into you on. the street, I feel like I haven't talked to you in forever. It's been a while, but my sense is you've had more than enough to talk about without my input.

You're doing gangbusters. So, anyway, but it's lovely of you to have me on. And it's always a delight to cross your path. All right. Well, we're going to do something with Liz here on the podcast that usually we don't do, but because Liz is actually retiring from the Washington Post. We're going to talk a little bit about Liz. But before we get to that, let's get to the sale of the team, which you are in the thick of it,

reporting on everything that's going on with the sale of the team. The Post has been doing a great job. So what changed yesterday with the Mitchell Rails joining the Josh Harris bid? In your mind's eye, did something change yesterday? Did we get closer to the outcome that I think everybody was? once? So yesterday was significant. The news of Mitchell Rails joining the Josh Harris did significantly bolsters

that did that already has some very attractive things about it. I don't know at all that it gets the process closer, the resolution closer, because that is entirely in, at least first base, in Dan Snyder. control. And then second phase would be in the NFL's control because they have to approve any buyer he would bring to them, assuming he does sell the whole team. So there are so many if, if attached. But to go back to the significance of yesterday, so missile rails is not necessarily a household name, although he's grown up in Bethesda. He has a huge. very admired profile in business circles and in the art world.

He's very well known among the NFL owners, among billionaires in general. But he, you know, from the local sports perspective, he's a Walt Whitman grad. He was captain of the football team there. And you may have known this among his many business centers. At one point, he acquired the radio station that he then turned into D.C.'s first sports talk radio station, W-T-E-M. Yeah, I'm vaguely familiar with this station. Yeah, they founded him and his brother, Stephen, founded, you know, W-TEMs, launched it on 570.

Andy was their first tire. Liz, Andy Pullen, was their first tire. James Brown was in. that umbrella and Cornheiser. Yeah. Anyway, I mean, those are sort of the footnotes. I mean, it's important to us, but liberal footnotes to his achievements in the world of business, which is, you know, co-founding with his brother, this phenomenal, powerful,

lucrative company called Danahur Corporation. It's kind of a bunch of manufacturing entities, and I'm sure I'm giving that short strips. But in the art world, well, he's president of the National Gallery of Art, which is a huge honor. But he and his wife are the founders of the phenomenal art gallery in Potomac, Glentstone, that it's really singular in all the world. And it's a place for primarily modern contemporary art. it's very cool with both an outdoor walking

a path and environment to appreciate art and then lots of square footage inside so that's a very cool thing

so he's kind of a renaissance man right here and I'm in this so sorry I'm getting I'm getting off the point his addition to the Harris group adds another billionaire he I believe is worth

five billion, according to Forbes. I kind of think it's more than that, but that's the ballpark we're talking. And the NFL, first of all, you know, with the price that NFL teams are going for now, upwards of $4.5 billion, and there's a notion that Snyder thinks he deserves $6 billion. Upwards of that for the commanders, we'll see if he gets it, if there is a sale, it's really hard to meet the NFL's requirement to buy a team because they put limits on how much you can borrow. Right.

They also ban corporate money, like private equity money. So basically you have to find a person who can put down at a minimum 30% of the purchase price. And that literally means give it up, not just say, well, here's my oil well, good for it. No, you have to give that up and not feel it in your daily life. So that's maybe $1.8, $2 billion. And then you have to assemble a group that not only can hit that mark, here's how we're going to finance $6 billion. The NFL is far more comfortable if you can also show your group has double that amount of assets or triple.

You know, they don't want you just barely squeaking by like I did when I bought my first house. Like, here's every single ad that I have. Like, I can barely buy the house. No, they want somebody who can do the deal, plus have this huge backstop just because they don't want anything to go under or have cash flow issues. It's almost impossible for that to happen, given how lucrative the national broadcast deal is. But still, you know, the rich or the better. Well, I'll just leave it there. Mitchell Rail brings that, which, and then he also has that deep local tie.

I mean, as does Harris, even though he doesn't live here. I mean, they both grew up in Bethesda. And he's high-profile as civic-minded, as philanthropic, just a real pillar of a world that you and I don't move in, frankly. It was a big ad. It is a big ad. Is it fair to say that Harris needed co-investors, that he would not have been able to make that 30% liquidity, you know, number, you know, call it 1.5 to $1.8 billion,

wherever it would have been, that he was looking for co-investors and needed them? Super legitimate question, and I don't have the knowledge to answer that. nor can I say what percentage of the bid rails is going to assume, you know, is he in for 10%? Is he in for 30%? I have no idea. And certainly I don't know.

But it is, I mean, I know this sense you're asking it, I can't answer that. But in a sense that every bid for an NFL team that has to be approved by the 32 NFL owner, it is more attractive, the more capital you have. You know, the less debt it carries. You know, they like certain forms of wealth more than other forms of wealth. I mean, is your wealth, I don't want to pick on any industry. But, you know, is it in casinos, you know, industries that kind of come and go? Is it, you know, in a fleeting industry, or is it kind of the rock, you know, companies that have been around for decades, their value has been the same.

I mean, and you can tell how limited my financial expertise. There are certain industries that they would prefer that are more stable, yes. Sure, sure, sure. And, you know, has somebody already been vetted by the SEC for a million reasons, or is this just a person out of nowhere, you know, say a Russian officer? oligarch emerges with, you know, we don't quite know where his money comes from, you know, that would take some more scrutiny than, um, than Mitchell Rails would. So I don't know that, I have no way of knowing if Harris needed this to take him over the top, but by definition, the stronger your group is, um, on those metrics we kind of nodded at. It's a stronger case.

It's fair to say, though, that Harris is the lead. He's the lead on this bid, and he would be if they got it, the majority owner. That seems like a fair assumption. But it's certainly my understanding. I don't have any reason to set change. He's never even acknowledged publicly he's in this. But, you know, the league requires no more than 25 people in a group, and they must designate one to be the managing general partner.

and that person is who goes to the NFL meetings, who cast the votes for the team. He's the big dog. Now, is a bit of minutia. He doesn't technically have to have the biggest financial stake in it. You can be the managing general partner and not have the most money. That's pretty rare. I mean, that's an accurate. You mentioned this, and I've talked about it on the radio show and on the podcast,

do you think the NFL will change some of these rules that do make it very restrictive, especially considering that they'd love to have minority ownership in the NFL, the 30%, the no-private equity, the various rules that they have that makes it kind of limits the audience of potential buyers now, given how high these franchises have gone? Do you think they'll change those rules or not? Yeah, I find this so fascinating, that whole set of, issues. It seems to me that it is an inevitability, absolutely, because if you look at the rate at which values are appreciating, you know, to say you're a billionaire, it's like that doesn't remotely

qualify you. You can't even get into the conversation. You know, it's taking mega billionaires to buy NFL teams. And as I bet your listeners know, the NBA, MLB, hockey have loosened their rules for this reason. So they do welcome a certain amount of private equity and even sovereign wealth funds like, you know, an investment group in Qatar, you know, we associate those with the oil rich emirate sovereign wealth funds can own. And you see a lot of this in the premiership soccer, you know, overseas. There's a big push for corporate ownership there. So it's an inevitability, but I sense no traction at the moment. I don't think they're going to have to do it to make this particular deal work.

But the NFL is sort of anachronistic. It's clinging to this old way of doing business. They're becoming a victim of their own success, and they're not going to want to do it because they like the badge of exclusivity. Like, yeah, we have the toughest rules to get in our club because that's who we are. But you can just delete yourself into oblivion at some point, you know. So we'll see. Eventually, yeah.

All right. Where are we right now? Who's definitely in the mix for this team? Well, you know, I cannot give you the clarity you want. And I can't, I would never fake that I have the clarity. We are only, I mean, we've printed what we know. to be true. And so we have printed that the Josh Harris group is involved, and that Tillman Petita, a Texan who owns the Houston Rockets and has wealth in other businesses that he is

interested, has put forth an offer. And no one quite knows if Jeff Bezos is in or out, other than he's taken a significant preliminary step in retaining Allen and company, as you would do, to explore what is the real value here. You know, help you put a price on it, just like we would all hire a realtor. We don't just go buy a house, even though we, you know, no one is that arrogant, really, or a few people are. But you've reported, but you guys have reported, as have others, that Bezos has been excluded from the process as of now by Snyder? Oh, yeah.

So, yeah, I didn't mean to, like, cut that part short. So, yeah, we were not the first to report that, you know, not that we were sitting on that, but we just didn't have that confirmed. And we have pretty, we don't print stuff we can't confirm, and other forms of media are good about, you know, or just have a different standard. Other forms of media just let it fly and see what happens and see what sticks. I know that sounds like a put-down, but, you know, they might have the latitude to say,

hey, I'm hearing this or could it be that's that. Understood. You mean like sports talk radio hosts? Yes. That's fun, and it's interesting. No, so to get to the point, yes, we understand, and others certainly have reported that Snyder who's made clear to his banker, B-O-A securities, we're not entertaining.

I'm not going to sell to that guy, not interested in any offers. So that's true. I mean, I think what your listeners may not know or may not have considered, and really I have no dog in this fight, no matter what you think, is, A, there are people in the NFL or anybody who's successful in business who is holding out skepticism that Dan Snyder or any business person will leave money on the table when the final deal is offered. In other words, if Bezos comes with an offer that

is half a billion dollars more than the best offer, that's a real gut check. Would Snyder really walk away from that? You know, as an aside, he dropped the name of the team, not because he had a moral epiphany. He dropped the name because FedEx deal sent a letter to his lawyers giving notice that they were going to break the naming rights deal for cause, meaning they were going to stop payments on it if he didn't change the name in six months because it was doing reputational harm to FedEx to be associated with the name Redskins.

And within a matter of three days, Dan announced the name was dropped. So that was $45 million in play that changed his mind on something he had said, never, ever, ever will I change this name? That was a money decision. So conceivably, he'll have a change of heart if there's a lot of money on the table that Bayesville Springs. Then the other note is that Snyder, no NFL owner, ultimately decides who they sell to. I mean, they choose, here's the buyer I want to sell to. Then they bring it to the league and say, approve my buyer.

And I would say 95% they're approved because, you know, you don't blindside the NFL with who you're going to bring to them. They kind of know who your finalists are. But Dan himself was part of a bid that was rejected. I mean, you know, the initial choice. The trust was Howard Milstein's group in which Dan Snyder was a limited partner, and they were turned down by the lead. So Milstein went away and Snyder regrouped, and so they were a plan B himself, so he knows that. Yeah, and somehow they approved him. We are talking, of course, to Liz Clark from the Washington Post.

So there are two more things on this, and then I want to ask you a couple of questions about you. But in your story from this morning or from late yesterday, I thought that there was a very interesting paragraph with quotes from someone familiar with the inner workings and the views of the owners. The quotes were that Snyder and the commanders have communicated to the NFL's team owners that there are, quote, multiple bidders for the franchise, whom the owners and the league will, quote, love, closed quote, and that the sales price is, quote, looking good, closed quote. I actually think this is the first time in all of the reporting since November, since the announcement of B of A being retained by Dan and Tanya to look at selling the team, that we've actually gotten anything from anybody with respect to Snyder's current thought process.

on selling the team. You know, to say that we've got multiple bidders, you're going to love them, and by the way, the price is looking good is like almost, you know, I'm picturing, okay, I felt all along, Liz,

that they are moving forward with this and that this is going to happen and it has to happen for, you know, a lot of the reasons that, you know, all of us have talked about. But that was the first time, I think we heard kind of a Snyder viewpoint, even though it wasn't directly

from him? I told me hear you, and I think that is certainly how that's being perceived. I would just toss a couple other things into your thought process. You know, this is a negotiation. So a lot of, there's a lot of posturing here. I'm not saying with this statement, but, you know, filter that notion, filter everything you hear through that awareness, in other words. Like, could that send a signal,

to prospective buyers, we need to up our game. We need to come harder because there's, you know, he might take someone else to the prom. You know, he's got a lot of options here. Like, who's the intended audience for that? You know, if you recall in early December, not long after the initial report that kind of blew everybody away,

he's hired BLA, securities to entertain these offers, There was a report, I believe it was for fortune. I should get this right, but it was fortune or four, you know, an eye-popping report that Dan Snyder was entertaining multiple offers well north of $7 billion. Right. No, yeah, right. Hello. Yeah. So you won't find that in the Washington Post.

I mean, it got our attention. It's like, oh, my God. Are we missing something? We reported that as hard as we could and concluded that was a, that was a not true. And, you know, that might be something that you would leak if you want to spur some bidding, you know, or set a high bar. Like, this is what it's going to take. And a lot of people want to do this. So that was fallacious, to put it mildly.

And, I mean, I'm sure the person who reported it did a good job reporting what they were told. But, you know, that was not a truth. So I know what's in our story, and I know, you know, where it came from. But. No, I know what you're saying. No, I mean, look, there's been a lot of stuff. that's come out that obviously would help the seller, and there are other things that have come out that might help the buyer.

So you're in rate. You say what I am trying to say it like in a tentative. But I will say, I'm just to add, though. I think buyers, you're going to love them. I mean, to me, that's Mitchell Rail, you know. And I think Josh Harris. I mean, those are guys. I don't know that that was the reference, but.

Well, Harris has already been vetted by the league. He was vetted during the Denver sale. So they know him. Yeah. He'll get approved. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah.

What about the indemnification stuff? This is the stuff that you guys have, you know, we're reporting last week and it's in every single story about how, you know, it's almost from my standpoint, I kind of view Snyder as, hey, they want me out so badly. I actually might have a little leverage here. So I'm going to demand indemnification. Now, and the story that Mark wrote over the weekend, I think it was. it was suggested that he might be satisfied if the new owners, let's just say it's Harrison Rails,

actually provided him with that indemnification rather than the league. But do you think this is something that he's hell bent on and that the league won't give him? I am quite sure the league won't give it to him, to the point that the league is wondering, why is he not indemnifying us? Right, exactly. So they work that way. and the way in which he presented this to the league in the form of, if I sell, I demand that you do this for everything, cover every potential liability. And I'm going to sue if I don't get it.

You know, as I interpret it, is overplaying his hand. But it mildly, I think our understanding is he doesn't so much care who. indemnifies him, but the goal, as you could understand, is that he not only get a big fat number, a record sales price, but he can go away without worrying he's going to have some post facto lawsuits for whatever may come from the Mary Jo White report or whatever else. Like, I don't, I'm going to, I want my money and I want to walk away with no worries. Who doesn't want that? So, you know, as I understand it, every major acquisition,

of a business includes a conversation about indemnity. You know, it's not preposterous to raise it. But, you know, it's typically a back and forth thing. Like, I want to buy your house, so I want you to fix the roof, give me new kitchen clients. Yeah, it's as-in-conditioned versus, yeah, exactly. And he wants, he wants buy it and as-is, and I'm walking away. Right.

Right. So, yeah, certainly leverage, in his case, it's seemingly a threat. But the way you do indemnity is you cap it, you know, to a point, and you might talk about categories. We'll indemnify you for lawsuits about A, but not B. So it's just way more complex than it seems. It's not shocking that he's introduced the idea. in the conversation and makes sense that he would take it from anybody. So we'll see how that goes. But it's a back and forth. All right. Let me make it clear. Liz is a reporter. She does not have a dog in the fight.

She is a dogged reporter, at least for another month, unfortunately, and not longer after that. And we'll get to that in a moment. But I sometimes, you know, sitting here every single day on radio and on this podcast talking about this now since November. Occasionally I just sit back and I'm like, oh my God, we're talking about this. He's selling the team. Like, I mean, it's only been since November, but now it feels like it's been here for a while.

But my God, like I think about where we've gotten to, and it's kind of amazing because there were certain moments where I was like, I can't imagine anybody would have fun owning this team. if you were Dan Snyder. He's got to, you know, he's got to get rid of it at some point, or they're going to vote him out at some point. But really and truly, no, he's kind of, you know, lived in this different world and been delusional with respect to how his fans think about him.

I mean, the bottom line has really started to tell this story here in recent years. That's for sure. But isn't it kind of amazing that we're actually here? Did you think this would ever happen? I come at this from a different perspective than you. And I totally intellectually, emotionally hear everything behind your question and your comment, totally, totally tracked. But, you know, as a reporter, I, if you said, when is this going to be resolved after four months of working on this question? you know, with my awesome coworkers, you know, Mark Maskey and Nikki Jabbala,

I'm unclear if it's a matter of three weeks or three years. I mean, no joke. That doesn't make me feel like a great reporter. I'm prepared to be blindsided tomorrow, but I wouldn't be surprised if this ends up in court and it's two or three years. I'm not 100% he's selling the team in full. You know,

is, it could be a process that kind of reset the value of the team. Like, what is my asset at worst? From, from dance perspective.

And, you know, we do know the team is exceedingly leveraged. He's carrying a lot debt. A part of that is what was perceived as the favor the NFL did him in letting him borrow an additional $450 million to buy out his business partners, you know, to keep that out of court, which he did. But that money has to be paid back. I mean, people act like the NFL gave him

$450 million. That's not it. They said, we waive the debt ceiling so you can do this. That's got to be paid back to the bank. And the waiver expires as well. He's got to be back in compliance. So he's carrying a lot of debt, need some money. And it's still possible if he's found a buyer for 20% of the commanders. That's a lot of money. That could buy him a lot of time.

And so, you know, there are scenarios with demons sold. I don't want to, you know, for those rooting sales, I'm not going to be a website. But, I mean, I'm a reporter. All things are in play until we know they're not. And I'm not sure. No, and I'm tracking where you are, too, because trust me, I won't believe it completely until the money's wired and the new owners have been voted, you know, three quarters through. and we're ready to roll.

I guess really what I was referring to more was, I didn't even think we would ever be here and see this day when Bank of America was retained, and there's so much pressure. I mean, we've all known what a disaster it's been here for a quarter century. And as fans, and you're not one of them, but I can speak for me and probably a significant percentage of people who are fans or were fans,

because that group is now probably larger than the people who are still fans. I just think so many of us thought this day would never come, that we'd be on the verge. I don't mean to sound like an automaton that I'm like not the emotional component. But what for me the headline is, what I can't believe, is that an asset that is for decades such a bedrock part, of a region's identity and passion, you know, a team so beloved that truly defined fall, it defined Sundays and Mondays that meant so much that it could flound.

It could be frittered away. Frittered is not the right word. There are other words, but that it's gone from leading the league in attendance, having a bigger waiting list than even an expanded stadium could accommodate. And it is 32nd among 32nd among 32. By a mile. It's average attendance of 58,000 is well off the 31st place team in attendance. And we're not even factoring in what color jerseys are those 58,000 wearing.

You know, how many of those are commander's fans? So the percentage capacity is also at the bottom of the NFL after reducing the capacity three times. They've taken seats out so you have the image of excitement, and they can't even fill that. So, you know, almost like from a business school perspective, it's a mind-blowing taste study of how, how, what is that movie? How to lose a guy in 10 days? How to kill a franchise in 24 years. It's just, that's what I can't believe. That's what I can't believe.

For five years, I think I've been using that line. I've said that his greatest accomplishment has actually been chasing away one of the most incredible consumer product, you know, fan bases in history, and that HBS, Harvard Business School, or Wharton should do a case study on what's happened here. It's been my line for five years now. Oh, really? It's mine, too. Why can't I write a master's thesis on how do you do this?

Like the dissection of this. Now, in his defense, you know, our market has changed. We've had the return of baseball. We've had the cap be so awesome. And younger people are not so much NFL fans. They're into other things. So, you know, the team doesn't have the prime. in the market that it did for so long.

It's a more competitive environment. But that said, you know, under his watch, it's been a failure and not just wins and losses. Economically, it's brutal. All right. More with Liz about Liz when we come back right after these words from a few of our sponsors. All right. Let's get to a very uncomfortable subject for you, because I know you. and that is talking about you.

Liz is retiring from the Post. She's been at the Post for 25 years. She's been in journalism for much longer than that. My first question to you is, why now? You're not that old. You're young. Oh, I am that old. No, I'm 62 and a half.

You're young. No, no, no. So, yeah, we're going to keep this short because the topic should not be me. And I'm totally embarrassed by the to-do, the very generous to-do on social media. I had no intention of sharing this until after I... People like you. All right. Get over.

So why now? I don't want people to think of it. Why now? I mean, again, I just, well, I mean, I have answers. I just don't know that this is a podcast fodder. But, you know, I am acutely aware of the brevity of life. I lost my dad in the fall. I've had three best friends since childhood, and two of them died before 65.

I'm a type one diabetic, insulin dependent. That makes my lifespan 68 years old, technically, and I'm not really worried. That's going to apply to me. I really try to be healthy, and, you know, so I've just painted dark reasons, but my timing, and I started planning this well over a year ago to retire at this time. I've delayed it twice. Not because I'm morbid, quite the contrary, because there are so many things I love that I love about our city. I am a huge theater fan.

I love music. I love going to art museums. There's so much I don't know how to do that I want to try, like, you know, garden and cook and speak Italian and write a BESPA. Like, there's just a million things I want to do. And I've always pictured my life in thirds, like the third of school, the third where you work is hard as you can. And the third, when you, like, explore all the things you don't want to miss. And I'm just so ready to start my final third with great, joyful hearts, no deadlines. And it's hard to explain the toll of being reporter.

I mean, and I know there are certainly harder jobs in the world, but the way I do journalism is constant worry, constant anxiety. I can't let it go. Writing is painful for me. I love reporting, but it's hard. It's hard. It's hard. I've done it 37 years. And I just, I will cry when I leave because I've had so many wonderful experiences.

And I just love our profession and love my coworkers. But I really want to have a different sort of life now. Those are all good reasons, and they're not surprising reasons to people who know you even a little bit. And I've been fortunate enough to know Liz for a while and be a part of Tony's show with Liz for so many years. And you're going to find things. And by the way, I think a lot of us, and I can so see this with you. where sports just isn't, you know, paramount in your life. And there are so many other things that it's now time to focus on that are beyond sports.

I'm not saying that you won't be a sports fan and you won't follow it, but my guess is it won't be as intently as you have because of your work. I wanted to ask you a couple of quick questions. Do you have a moment, a story, a report, an interview that, sticks out more than any other is something that you're most proud of? Oh, my God. This is really going to be wrenching because some are joy and some are pain. I mean, the most meaningful assignment, I think, was the 2010 World Cup, which was in South Africa.

I had never been to South Africa. And you live there for like six weeks to cover a World Cup. And I did this with Steve Goss, our awesome soccer writer. We were mainly based in Johannesburg, but I also went to Cape Town for a stint, and one of the world's greatest cities and in other places in South Africa. And I got the opportunity to spend time in Soweto and visit Desmond Tutu's home, Mandela's home. I got to go to Robin Island to see the jail where Mandela was imprisoned. and the South African people were so welcoming and so warm.

And the country was not that far removed from apartheid. You know, when you think about how far we are removed in time, slavery. And, you know, the active work of reconciliation and coming together, and it was just so moving to me. I came home after six weeks, and I dreamt of South Africa for weeks. I'm sorry, for like maybe even months. It's just like stayed with me. So that's when I say working at the post is a privilege of a lifetime.

That's part of the underpinning. But, you know, there's been wonderful joys, you know, covering the golden era of men's tennis. You know, I covered the first French Open, Raphael Nadal, He was a teenager, and his birthday is during the tournament, and they brought in a birthday cake in the press room, and we thank him happy birthday when he was turning 19. That's crazy. It was so cute. And I was just there last year when he won his most recent French Open, and I didn't cover every single one. But, like, that's an amazing bookend, and I feel that way about Venus and Serena, too.

I mean, you know, to have seen the arc of their careers or big, the heart of the arc of their careers, it's been brilliant. You know, the big events that sports fans might think, woohoo, you know, Super Bowl's Final Fours, they kind of meant less to me because, you know, it's just such a media crush. You feel like a lending. Like everybody's writing the same story, it's such herd journalism. I don't like heard journalism. them. I mean, I try to do it well when I do it, but anything where I'm learning something new or feel like I have a unique vantage point on something. No, I've just learned so much. And the post has sent me to six continents. There's only seven continents.

So Antarctica is the only one you haven't been to? Correct. And correct. You know, but I have been to back to six for various sports. And, you know, I'm not, my life wouldn't have gone that way otherwise. So, and just, I'm bearing the lead in just the wonderful coworkers I've learned from and worked alongside. And the athletes, too, you know, that I've learned from and admired and been inspired by and learn cautionary tales from, too. I mean, just, it's like the passport to a world. That's what being a reporter is. You have entree to worlds.

You wouldn't go in. And your job is to see them honestly and fairly and describe them for other people. It's like what could be a better, better job. Did you have a favorite athlete that you covered or interviewed? Well, you know, Dale Earnhardt was, was, just broke the mold. you know, I was, I was pretty close to him because I met him when I worked at the Charlotte Observer. That was his hometown paper, and I knew him for several years. He was super good to me, and I found him just an exceptional person and way, way more to him than the image, the badass, you know, image.

So he, he was close to my heart always. You know, I have, I love covering Nadal. Just I find him so admirable the way he treats people. Now, I've only been extended one-on-one time with Nadal once in all my years. I mean, I've been in untold press conferences and brief interviews, but spent a day with him earlier that, and just totally love. But he's one of those guys that is the same. person in any setting, you know, except on the court. I mean, he's a different animal and he's on the court, but, you know, he treats locker room attendance, reporters, credential checkers,

everyone with respect and humility. And the first, yeah, oh, I forget, well, I won't go into an adult story, but he had the first Wimbledon final he was in, he had the American press court over to his flat to get for a get acquainted session. And that meant there were like 10 of us invited over. And we went in the living room. He greeted us all at the door. So I just said I wasn't going to tell the story. No, I want to hear it.

Sorry. Start. At the door, each one, you know, thank you for coming. Thank you for coming. It's the British flat. So you had to go upstairs to the living room. and, you know, his Uncle Tony was there, and his Carlos Moyo was there, his agent, his PR guy, you know, in case there was a translation problem, because this was earlier, you know, when Russell was younger and his English wasn't as good as it was. net is is now um anyway we all go into the living room and um and so there's like sofas and various

chairs it's real quickly apparent we're going to be a little snug and ratha immediately sits on the floor like his butt with his legs out and we're like rap is sit he's like no you are my guest you sit and so he sat on the floor and um and it was just a wonderful question and And then at the end, he walked us out, like, thank you for coming, thank you for coming. He's always the same. I mean, I see him today. Hello, how are you? Nice to see you.

How is your family? So he's a special one. And I'm leaving out a lot of people, but those are two pretty awesome. Literally world champions, but just mentions, the most terrific, terrific people that people don't realize what good. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think when I think of you, I think of obviously, you know, the NASCAR period for you and you wrote the NASCAR book. But really for me, and you know this, because I think you and I and I and I and maybe Mark Stern are the only three people in town that actually like tennis. But, you know, many of our conversations were always about tennis.

And that's a sport that, you know, through the post, you've been, you know, you've been the tennis person and you've been identified with with that. And, you know, you went to, God, six continents, Liz. That's unbelievable what a job like that sort of allows you to do. It's amazing. And, you know, I was going to say, are you going to travel? You've already traveled. Now you want to stay here and take advantage of all the free museums that we have in Washington, which is, you know, unique in its own right.

But I would imagine that on the tennis tour, when you go to Wimbledon or when you go to the French Open or when you go to the U.S. Open, that, you know, everybody, like, Like there's a small group of you that have been covering that sport for a long period of time. So you probably know everybody, right? Well, you know, any sports writer would tell you, certainly in the era up until the pandemic, when travel kind of came to a halt and fewer newspapers are sending people anywhere. But whether it's an Olympics or World Cup or your beat is the NFL, I was an NFL beatwriter for eight years, you know, or college sports.

I mean, it's like a tribe you have. And, you know, my closest friends were often competitors from other papers because I would spend more time with them. I mean, for Wimbledon, I used to, you know, share a flat with my dear friend Michelle Cossman from the Miami Herald. And so you become close. Or, you know, Karen Krauss from the New York Times is such a close friend. I mean, you have your tribe, and I just love that.

You know, there's just a bond, even though you're competing against one another. This person, and certainly international sports, it's cool because I have a wonderful friend from Belgium and another from Egypt that I don't see in the U.S., but I see them overseas, you know, whether it's gymnastics championships or a grand slam. I mean, those days for me are not coming again, and I think they're not. coming again for a lot of journalists. But no, it's just a wonderful community, and you understand the stressive and challenges and joys and, you know, yeah, I'm going to, I've been so lucky. Yeah.

I mean, you know, I've read probably almost every tennis, you know, not necessarily, you know, results or report story, but I remember specifically the column that you wrote on Francis Tiafo when he was like 13 or 14 years old. Yeah, it's a story, yeah. And it was so, it was so well done. And, you know, that college park facility had been there for years, but really hadn't produced much yet. And, you know, ultimately, I mean, you were, you know, you, you were the one that sort of introduced Tiafo to this market, you know, or at least the people that care about tennis.

I know you hate doing this part, but I appreciate the time. And we'll look for Liz on Twitter to be tweeting about her favorite, you know, National Gallery of Art exhibits or the show that she saw at the national or at arena stage. And that's what we'll do. We'll just, we'll live vicariously through you on Twitter. I'm going to shut down Twitter. It was my last day. I don't know.

But anyway, thank you. I'm sure you, we just lost a lot of your pod listeners. Hardly. Hardly. Anyway. Thank for him. I love what you just said, though, because I think that'll be the first thing I do too. One day, I'm just shutting down all of the social media.

Thank you for doing this. Best of luck. I know we'll be in touch. Okay, bye. She's the best. And her writing is going to be missed in this market. a lot. All right, that's it for the day, back on Monday.